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I'm very leary of the whole kh/ph chart thing

Now, canyou explain why that would be? Of all the measurements and calculations that I love soooo much, this chart seems to be the most reliable, given that you don't add any buffers and such to the water.

Or do you mean the inaccuracy of the test kits that would get you to the right column (ph) and row (KH) ?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well there's a whole discussion about this on APC, but I have a problem with it for a few reasons. First off most people don't know there exact PH. If your using a typical test kit, it's easy to be off by at least .2.

So if you measured your ph at 6.3 and your kh is 2 than you have the 30ppm that is so desired. But in reality if your ph is 6.5 then your running short of 19ppm. Can you say for sure you have the 30ppm by using the chart?

Secondly the measurement of co2 relies on the kh being buffered by carbonates. What if there's something in your tap that is different? This would invalidate the reading as well. I still find it hard to believe that someone with a 6.3 ph and a kh of 2 is running 30ppm and someone with the same ph and a kh of 10 is running 150ppm.

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tetratech,

I hear you on the inaccuracy of test kits and as such a quite broad range of possible CO2 values when crossing two elements (ph and KH).

The one thing I don't question at all is, given accurate measurements (or simply assuming them as fact) of ph and KH, that CO2 concentrations are base on these cross points, that seems to me to be a pure chemistry effect. I mean, hypothetically, a 6.3 ph and a kh of 2 is running 30ppm and a 6.3 ph and a kh of 10 is running 150ppm, that is just a fact. Why would it not be that way?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The one thing I don't question at all is, given accurate measurements (or simply assuming them as fact) of ph and KH, that CO2 concentrations are base on these cross points, that seems to me to be a pure chemistry effect

Is it? Far be it for me to question german science, but I believe the KH reading is inaccurate for several reasons:

1. Too many elements, etc. in the tap and water column that might influence that number and they aren't necessarily carbonates.
2. Why is KH measured in a rounded number like 2 or 3, why isn't it 2.5 or 3.6?

Maybe it's me but when someone tells me there co2 is 120ppm and everythings fine I tend to doubt the number?


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In my science class I am in right now we just talked about the words Truth and Fact. We basicly descided that they were not good science words. Our scientific beliefs should be ever changing due to new research and technology. It think it is good for tetra to question such things. Far too often we take things for truth or fact just because we are told they are. If someone tells us its true then why question it. We should question thing so we know the truth or at least have a much better understanding of a subject matter.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Hi,
Actually, the values could easily be 2.349746... But, how
accurate do we need to be? This is not a lab, and I
believe generalities is close enough. You have gotten a
glimpse of this in another sense, as you planted bunches
of fast growing stem plants and then later, replaced them
with slower growing plants. How many cabomba = one sword,
or vice versa? How many wisteria?
There are numerous examples... How many epsi = one platy
(waste wise)...etc.

As one who has a scientific background, I prefer to carry
things out into decimal places, and the IF/THEN of logic,
but this is a hobby.
IF my KH is 4, AND my pH is 6.6, THEN my CO2 saturation
is 30mg/l. At least that is what "my" chart says. But
someone else may have carried their computations out
a couple of more places, or used digital equipment for
measuring instead of drops of reagents.
Now it could be 28.5 or it could be 32.0 but
for what we are dealing with, I feel it is "close enough
for government work."

We are right to question, that is how we learn, but I'm
not sure how "hung up" we need to get.

Just my $0.02.
Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

If someone tells us its true then why question it. We should question thing so we know the truth or at least have a much better understanding of a subject matter.

Wings, excellent relevant point. It wasn't too long ago that many aquarist (myself included) and many still do think that no3,po4 increases algae even in an well planted tank.

Actually, the values could easily be 2.349746... But, how accurate do we need to be?

Well I agree with that depending on the context we are talking about. Look the whole EI thing is "Estimative" but we are not talking ferts we are talking co2. If we go by the chart and you have a measured ph of 6.5 and a kh of 2 then you have 19ppm of co2. Probably good enough for many planted tanks, but if your actual ph is 6.8, just .3 difference than your actual co2 is 9.5ppm or half. That's a big difference.

That's why if you are running high-tech tanks with all the bells and whistles you need to push the co2 based on visuals and not charts.

My Scapes

I am with you on the pushing the CO2. I think we are in simmilar ball parks of where the line of too much CO2 is on our fish. Isn't it amazing how much a small difference in Ph is to your CO2?

If I remember what my boss what telling me. Ph is exponetial. Therefore the closer you are to 7 the less of a swing it really is. At either end the swing gets bigger. I would have to look at my chem books to make sure if this is "true" or not but looking at that and our CO2 things get a little messy. I think I am getting a little over my head with this.

Guess I should do my home work now being I am brain fried with my hobby!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

I still haven't totally fiqured out the pearling thing, but tonite I have massive pearling on my riccia. I actually didn't think it would happen with my wattage and the depth that the riccia is. The following are several pics of rams over pearling riccia. I don't think it get's much better than that.

Notice the pearling on the wisteria leaf as well.



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Female Blue Ram

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Male Blue Ram

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Here's a nice comparison shot of the blues and bolivians as they move about the tank together. Totally peaceful I guess until fry arrive:



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Here's a few nice closeups:



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Blue Male

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Bolivian:



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The bolivians don't have as much color of course:
Yeah Ingo there's some bba on the rock behind the ram


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but the definitely have more personality:



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Very nice ram pictures. They look great. The bolivions are not as colorful as the blues but they are still a sharp fish.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Thanks Wings, The bolivans are definitely more interesting. One of mine is going to be two years old soon.

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Well I noticed my filter wasn't on this morning and I remembered unplugging it last nite to take a pic so that explains the riccia pearling. This happened a month or so ago and Bensaf explained the add'l oxygen available since the biofilter wasn't consuming it. So if you guys want to force some pearling why don't you give it a try. I would only recommend it on a fully planted tank though and you must proceed at your own risk.

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Great great great pictures, tetratech,

So clear and beautiful in color

Hey - I never said that there are inaccuracies in all kinds of things, like test kits and what not. All I said that the chemical relationship between ph and KH can be assumed a constant, meaning cross points will show proper CO2 values. Now, all the parts that may influence the proper values for the axis (ph and KH) is a completely different story. But I never claimed it was that simple, so no need to bash me for believing in the nature of chemistry

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

But I never claimed it was that simple, so no need to bash me for believing in the nature of chemistry

Me no bash you Little_Fish

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*Stands back so I can get a good view of tetra and LF swinging their purses at each other*

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Hey now,

That is a Man-Purse from Europe (but I guess you don't know Seinfeld, so that may not make sense to you).

Anyway tetratech, all is good on the Ram frontier? I wonder if you can credit the UV for this one as well? Would make sense to me, at least.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

That is a Man-Purse from Europe (but I guess you don't know Seinfeld, so that may not make sense to you).

I prefer "European Carry All" Bensaf you know you have one. That's why your always getting into trouble in Indonesia.

LF,
The rams seem fine, this Thursday will be a month, but you never know with blue rams. Yes I do think the UV has something to do with it along with a very good biofilter.
Many fish have a tendency to get infections and as Untitled pointed out that is probably what you fish died of. But the believe the key is not necessarily to get fish that don't have these infections (which is probably pretty hard to do) but to keep it suppressed in the same way we keep algae spores suppressed.

Thing about all animals including us have a tendency to get infections if we are stressed enough. Most of the time these things are suppressed but when we go to far off center the infections come. Come to thing of it, isn't that the way it is with Algae. Isn't Bensaf always saying the algae spores are always there. We just have to keep them suppressed by not given them the conditions they want.

Untitled might have access to a good breed of fish maybe the water is better who knows but I haven't lost a cardinal since I could remember. I still have all 23. Here's a pic of the happy couple:



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Yes I do think the UV has something to do with it along with a very good biofilter.

I guess if I ever would like to have Rams again then this is something I should try. Although, wouldn't that mean that I have to change my filtration setup (too powerfull in GpH) for the big tank, plus, wouldn't I need one on the QT as well (which has only a HOB)?

Also, not that I question it, but what makes your biofilter very good?

And, nice shot of the rams, you will soon scramble for a breeding tank

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hi tetratech

Beautiful tank & fish pictures.

The Bolivians are definitely more interesting.

I'm interested what you mean by this. What do the Bolivians do that is more interesting than the other rams?

Cheers
TW

Thanks Robyn,

The bolivians seem to show more of a "pet" personality always interacting with me at the front of the tank compared to the blue rams.



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Also, not that I question it, but what makes your biofilter very good?

ABout 60 pounds of wisteria, I'd say...

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Back in the saddle!

ABout 60 pounds of wisteria, I'd say...

'
Who's counting, but I think it's more like 68 pounds .

Anyway, here's a full shot from tonite. Not my greatest scaping moment, but everything going fine with the tank.
In this pick the stargrass is too low and the rotala and aromatica too tall.

Speaking of wisteria. I'm noticing that the lower levels are leaving the substrate and pushing some of the wisteria up alittle to much. In the left side of the tank some of the wisteria is almost a foot tall when you count all the layers. After 9 months or so I might have to start pulling some out and replanting.



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Another plant that is probably at it's fullest since getting it is the Blyxa. It seems to have finally gotten comfortable in the tank. Still green, but it's pretty lush. I might have to make room for a too grow some more.



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On the other hand I've sorta given up on the rotala wallachi. Not that it won't grow but it really doesn't fit so I've sort of let the wisteria outcompete for space and light. I think I'll probably look for a low wide plant that can grow about the jungle of wisteria as Bensaf mentioned. The pearling is just fanastic almost a frenzy of sorts with bubbles everywhere. Here's a pic of the Rotala doing it's thing.



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I think the tank looks as good as it always did (except maybe during the green water / willow branch phase).

I don't find the Wisteria on the left too tall yet, but I see where you are coming from. In general, I think having one side of the tank ending higher than the other is a good thing.

Sorry to hear that the wallachi doesn't seen to work out, but hey, gives you a nice reason to buy a new species, without increasing the number of species overall.

Glad to hear that the Blyxa is doing fine, the few small stems that I added to my 40G seem to settle nicely as well. I bet you that your removal of the big rock and the trimming back of the main group, resulting in more light, has a lot to do with it.

Nice job as usual, tetratech,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I think the tank looks as good as it always did (except maybe during the green water / willow branch phase).

What you didn't like the GW / Willow thing.
Thanks, but I think my tank looks best with a tighter mound arrangement, but everyone sees different things.

Yep, your probably right about the blyxa and the rock/trimming. Keeping enough light on it consistenty is the key to keeping it growing and clean.





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Check out this guy. Right in the co2 stream. You could actually see the stream going around the oto. Does the tubing like familiar? Probably the same stuff you have. It's starting to be a pain-in-the-you-know-what. I came home from work again and the bubbles were coming out of the contact point between the tubing and the diffusor. This is a serious issue that I'll have to fix soon because I know the fluctating co2 will lead to BBA.

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First the fish thought the diffuser was a toilet bowl, now an Otto that thinks it's a jacuzzi

About the tubing, how about of those plastic tie things, sorry can't remember what they're called, you know the ones you pull tight and they can't be pulled back open. Like the plastic handcuffs the cops use now (why do I know that )

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

About the tubing, how about of those plastic tie things, sorry can't remember what they're called

That's a really good idea and they come in black too.

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Have you also tried dipping the end of the tube in hot water so it expands and loosens, then push it onto the diffuser as far as possible? Once it cools down the tubing will contract and should form a tight seal.

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Back in the saddle!

Good idea Nowher. I have had the problem of lossing the seal in my tank too.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

To bring CO2 to my reactor I use a gasoline hose that normally is used for miniature airplanes They are very ... eh ... rubber-ish (? - I really can't come up with the right word right now, it's past midnight and I'm leaving on a 10 day vacation tomorrow at 5 am) and resistant to the acidic breakdown that you get with the "normal" airhoses. I've had it in the tank now for 1½ years and it still is as good as new.

I would think that "fusing" a tube to a diffuser is not the best idea as it would render the elements hitched forever. That would be bad if you would try to clean the diffuser in bleach (which I don't do anymore, at least since the last 6 weeks, as Excel is working well).

This is the old problem of wanting it both ways: attached enough so it doesn't come off, but not enough to be stuck on it for good.

Ingo

Dr - have a nice vacation

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I would think that "fusing" a tube to a diffuser is not the best idea

I agree, but did I miss something, who said that?
To be honest I didn't have any of these problems when I was using Lee's stealth Black tubing. I've probably go back to that. The bubble intensity seemed the same. Maybe it will just need to be changed more often as it will breakdown.

Anyway I temporarily, solved the problem by using a different airline tubing "Topline Silicone Air Line Tubing"
It's a lovely shade of blue as depicted below.




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I would think that "fusing" a tube to a diffuser is not the best idea as it would render the elements hitched forever.

I use the hot water method to expand & then slip the tube on. It doesn't "fuse" just fits tight. While the fit is nice & tight, several times I have needed to remove the tubing & have always managed it (eg when I disconneded my DIY C02 - when I disconnected my air bubbles - when I added my solenoid). Yes, it may take longer (not much) to remove due to it's snug fit, but it's definitely not fused. Never used it to attach to delicate glass - that may be different. Nearly always used this method (not to glass), as the tubing I use is usually hard to get on in the first place, so hot water makes the installation easier. Anyway, just my $0.02

Cheers
TW

Right on topic, last night when I came home my tubing was off again .

About the hot water: I understand the process, but does that mean that you have to use the hot water each time when you want to re-attach the tubing after you took it off for cleaning etc. ?

Last night I just stuck it back on, I think I will either try tetratech's double sucktion cup attempt or I will change it this weekend (hopefully when the plants are here) and put the gray ADA tubing in place.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

So far I have not had to clean my bubble counter, it has never been dirty, but I did have to remove the tubing when I installed the solenoid. It came off, but with enough of a struggle that it would be a nuisance if you had to do it every week. When I clean my C02 reactor, the lid comes off, complete with the tubing attached. I agree that it would be a big hassle, if I couldn't do that, as the tubing does fit very snugly after being heated. If I had to regularly remove tubing from something, you're right that I may think twice about making it such a tight fit.

Point goes to Ingo

Apart from that point, though, it is actually how LFS told me to do it & I know I get a much more secure fit than by just pushing it on.

Cheers
TW

About the hot water: I understand the process, but does that mean that you have to use the hot water each time when you want to re-attach the tubing after you took it off for cleaning etc.

I did when I had the CO2 tank set up, but I really never saw the big deal about sticking a glass of water in the microwave for a minute while the tank was draining Not that much work IMO and it did the job.

I guess for a diffuser you can make the argument it's unnecessary, but for conecting tubing to a cannister filter and to a UV, and in situations where you're splitting the tubing a few times I think it's vital to heat up the ends to get as secure a fit as possible. I know I couldn't push the tubes onto fittings dry as far as I could when they were heated.

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Back in the saddle!

After around 4 1/2 weeks all seems fine with the blue rams.
Here's a current pic. The pearling is after a water change but it makes a nice pic nontheless:



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Just when you think it's under control
Total was the first day in about a week where I had consistent co2 diffusion. In other words the hose didn't come off the glass tip, but this brought a few problems to light. Firstly I noticed some strange behavior with my fish and shrimp. Some of the pencils and the rainbow fish were at the top definitely gasping. The bolivians and the amano shrimp turned almost black. One of my otos doesn't look too good. It also was the first time I saw all my otos and I counted 9, but it maybe 8 after tonite. My conclusion for this that the co2 numbers were gradually decreasing over the week because of the problems with the tubing and now today it was at full tilt and the fish couldn't handle it. As I've mentioned before when I acclimate new fish now I notice they gasp if they are acclimated at nite so this definitely makes sense.

Upon a closer examination of the tank I noticed an increase in BBA and on plant leaves (aromatica) that I never had before. This I believe was also caused by the reduction in co2. So a little problem like a tube coming off a diffusor can create some pretty big issues. It's all about small changes.

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From an aquascaping standpoint here's the tank tonite. A couple of things:

Wisteria:
I removed all the wisteria from the left side of the tank and replanted fresh tops. These is the first time I've done this since setting up the tank more than 9 months ago. The wisteria was so layered it was starting to look kinda ratty. The wisteria just from the left side filled a bucket. I resisted uprooting the wisteria on the right as well. BTW I don't know if this contributed to the BBA problem I saw, but it certainty didn't help and wasn't the best time to have done this in retrospect. I've noticed before there is a fine line between controlling BBA and the consistency of the co2 output.

Blyxa:
Since I thinned out the wisteria on the left I decided to give the blyxa some more room to spread it's wings so I have about 7 bunches going on an angle toward the large rock.

Rotala R.
I expanded this group as well wrapping it around the center DW and along the front and side of the left group of stargrass.

Here's a pic from tonite:





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Here's a pic showing the tank tonite (Lower pic) with a pic when grow was fuller creating a nice mound effect. To each their own, but I think the top pic show my tank in it's full glory.



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Nothing more to say, other than SIMPLY BEAUTIFUL

Cheers
TW

Still looking real good.

The change to both the Rotala and the wisteria were good moves.

Thinning the Wisteria has certainly added more depth.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

I agree with the posters before me, looking very nice, and a change is (almost) always good.

I hear you on the darn diffuser thing, last night when I came home the one in my 40G completely fell off again . I find it more of a specific diffuser size issue than a tubing issue, as the blue tube in my 125 never ever came off, but the diffuser is one with 8 coils . The one in the 40G has this glass weight inside that works like a bubble counter, the gas has to push it up to pass by on the side of it. This may cause enough back-pressure to further increase the need for expansion in the tubing, and as such the losening of the hose.

About your tank, yeah - wrapping was a nice idea,and giving the fancy (compared to Wisteria) Blyxa more space to shine is also a good thing. I am certain your main group will grow to resemble the earlier appearance very closely.

Nice tank, my fellow planter

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

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Back in the saddle!

well I certainly appreciate all the accolades

Nothing more to say, other than SIMPLY BEAUTIFUL
Still looking real good.
Nice tank, my fellow planter

..and of course nowher who's a man of few words:


LF,
About the diffusor, If you put a suction cup on the tubing above the diffusor and a then give it some slack it doesn't pull from the top as much. That's what I've done and it's been good for a couple of days now.

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You know you're a planted tank nerd when you spend the better part of a week discussing the ramifications of attaching tubing to a diffuser this way or that...

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Back in the saddle!

The older tank shot really shows off the colors you have produced nicely but I truly love the rotala grouping around the drift wood. It is kind of a sub-mound which makes it a little more interesting.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

The older tank shot really shows off the colors you have produced nicely but I truly love the rotala grouping around the drift wood. It is kind of a sub-mound which makes it a little more interesting.

Yes I would agree with that. The top of the aromatica in the older shot really colored up. Might be all I can manage with my wattage.

I find the rotala r one of the easiest plants to trim and work with. It doesn't has a good solid feel to it and it doesn't grow outrageously fast, while the stargrass grows fast and tends to get "messy" very quickly. The aromatica wideleaf is a great plant but you must use your hands to plant it's heavy stems even in the eco.

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A couple of foreground shots:



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A closer look of the riccia covered rocks:



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A shot of the Riccia thru the expanded Blyxa group from the left side of the tank. Gives a nice rugged carpet look.


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You're welcome

And it's so nice to see your face at last in the new AV. Funny but you look just like I thought you would !

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Very nice shots Tetra. Riccia sure is a nice plant. It works really well with your tank. You only started with an inch square of the stuff didn't you?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

That is the other enhancement that I see, when comparing the tank now to earlier:

Not only has the riccia grown, you also gave it more structure, in particular height diversion. Earlier, it was more of a flat row, like a saussage

Funny but you look just like I thought you would !

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Wings,
Yep. They sold it by the square inch at the LFS. Had enough to thinly cover two small stones. Never bought anymore.

LF,
Yeah I really like the riccia. If you use different height rocks the riccia grows about the same above each rock so the different heights develop. The rocks are probably due for a trim. I could definitely see what some people do riccia only tanks. I honestly find it really easy to work with as long as you use hairnets

Glad you guys like the new av. Yeah I though it was a pretty good self portrait.

P.S. In case you guys are interested I did start my Reef Log: http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/threads/30106.1.htm?8#
There are some parallels to planted aquaria so you might be able to contribute something

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O.K. I had to move things around for the addition of the reef tank. The new tank is going to go in the bedroom where my 12g currently is so that meant I had to find a new home for it. Well I always wanted a "Wet Bar" and now I have one. The 12g is now located in my kitchen that houses a small bar.



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Here's a closer shot:



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Tetra,

I am really blown away from your shots! The last one is the best. It shows off both of your tanks but the veiw of your 72 is extra great. It gives you a better perspective than just the strait on veiw we normaly give each other. Must say that it is quite artistic.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

That last photo is the best shot I've seen of your main tank. I really do wish you showed a bit more light in your tank photo's - I always get the feeling the pics don't do the tank justice.

BTW, what's the monkey staring at

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Thanks for the comments. I had a feeling that last shot was a good one. Wings once you get your camera you'll be taking nice shots as well.

I really do wish you showed a bit more light in your tank photo's - I always get the feeling the pics don't do the tank justice.

Well I'll tell you why my shots are usually on the darkside I can't take shots during the day, because my tank faces the western back of my house and faces a sliding door and window which produce to much glare to get a clean photo. This is also when my tank is running the 192watts. Most of the photos I take are with only 96watts of light, so I could probably get better photos by making sure all the lights are on or forcing more light on top. Also my camera is limited with a top ISO setting of 400. Some of the SLR cameras go much higher in ISO setting allowing better photos with less light.


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So on a different note.... Tetra, you have rams in this tank and shrimp. Do your rams ever go after the shrimp? I am kind of thinking of adding a curvacep to my tank but I don't want to have it make a snack out of my Cherry shrimp. Any thoughts?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

havent been here in god knows how long but everything looks great in my opinion!!! anywho keep it up but in my opinion i really like the more fuller look to the tank really shows off the height and length of it

keep it going master tank designer...BENSAF BETTER GET A LOG UP HERE SOON TO COMEPETE!!!

So on a different note.... Tetra, you have rams in this tank and shrimp. Do your rams ever go after the shrimp? I am kind of thinking of adding a curvacep to my tank but I don't want to have it make a snack out of my Cherry shrimp. Any thoughts?

My cherry shrimps are all in my 12g with a school of Gold Tetras and kuli loaches so there are no problems there. In my 72g I have only Amano Shrimp and the Rainbows, Bolivians and Blues don't even look at them.

keep it going master tank designer...BENSAF BETTER GET A LOG UP HERE SOON TO COMPETE!!!

Thanks Bratyboy2. Yeah Bensaf

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Ahh I thought you had some Cherry's in this tank but I was wrong. Thanks for the info. Sorry to post random question on your log.


55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

BENSAF BETTER GET A LOG UP HERE SOON TO COMPETE!!!

I don't need a log. I let this do the talking

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

yeppers looks good!!!! all hale to BENSAF

That's one hell of a hotch-potch
Very lush. Don't get me wrong the tank works because of the plant placement and different textures next to it, but any chance of alittle more DW peaking thru.

Bensaf I forget how deep is your tank. I'm surprised your able to grow the plants so full and overlapping each other with your light. Have you increased wattage overall?

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Not so much worried about the hodge podge of plants, but the fish...

What do we have: 1 bosmani rainbow , one dwarf neaon rainbow, some r. hengali, rummynose tetras, pearl gourami, cherry barbs a few otos and a partridge in a pear tree...


.. no wait, not a partridge in a pear tree... a krib it appears.

Hey, at least you're a good selector of plants...

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Back in the saddle!

The picture is a couple of weeks old. I've tidied up a bit since. There's a lot of wood in there, about 7 decent sized pieces. Most have become overgrown with Ferns and mosses. Showing more of the wood will be a big job. I will be moving by the end of the year so this tank will be a thing of the past In the meantime I don't want to do any major re-organising and will just let it do it's thing.

It's a fairly deep and tall tank. It's a about 22" deep so it does allow a lot of overlapping. Although if I had to do it again I'd push everything back and have a more open forground. I'd also have done the wood and rocks differently so as they stay visible. Envisioning how a tank will look 6 donths down the road and taking that into account is something I'm only starting to learn.

Because of the tank size and the way the plants are arranged I did add another couple of T5 bulbs at the back . This was more for light spread rather then more intensity. With one fixture lots of the tank wasn't getting light. Theres now about 186watts whaich is about 2.8 wpg.

Nowhere, you're right about the fish -it's a mess of a selection. But this tank has been going in various forms for 3 years now and there are a few fish that hung on where their bretheren have since gone to the aquarium in the sky. Should really find a good home for the odd guys out. I'd like to stick with the school of rummies and pencil fish ,there are larges schools in there but they were obviously camera shy, the Gouramies and maybe the Krib and get rid of the rest. It does distract from the overall look.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Because of the tank size and the way the plants are arranged I did add another couple of T5 bulbs at the back . This was more for light spread rather then more intensity. With one fixture lots of the tank wasn't getting light. Theres now about 186watts whaich is about 2.8 wpg.

Your overall wattage is pretty much what I have (2.7wpg) although your tank is 4" deeper. How are those T5 bulbs in comparison to the same wattage CF?

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A couple of select shots:

The ricca foreground is in full bloom and will probably need to trimmed soon. Besides looking nice the rainbows, rams and shrimp feed off of it constantly and it really hasn't done much damage to it.


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A closer shot:



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Moving further away, here's a full tank shot: Check out the little piece of wisteria that made it's way under the main rock and appears in the riccia group.



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And a shot even further away of the "Fish Kitchen"



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Tetra,

I really like the pictures of both tanks with you standing back a bit. You really get a different perspective. Very neat.

Rick
See all my pictures at Google Web Albums

Thanks Slickrb. It's interesting to see different perspectives. You pick up alot of things you wouldn't ordinary realize.

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Tetratech,

I like your fish-kitchen-tank shot and the one where you cut off the top part of the 72. That one looks almost as it would have the dimensions of a 125 and I can easily imagine what a beautiful layout this would be in such a large tank.

I am almost sure that you are toying with the thought of removing your main group and instead having a typical "less-is-more" Amano style tank, with such a lovely Riccia setup.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Boy LF, talk about "cold turkey" I was getting worried about you. This place is like a ghost town without your 10.9 posts per day average.

I am almost sure that you are toying with the thought of removing your main group and instead having a typical "less-is-more" Amano style tank, with such a lovely Riccia setup.

You know me so well I would love to do that. Maybe I should skip the reef and do that with my 46g. Only kidding Matty, but I would love to have another tank to try that. Maybe if I get bored with my 12g I'll convert it to a co2 higher-light tank.

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It's not a bad idea, but in order to pull if off I think you'd need to add more substrate and get some taller rocks in there. The 72 is pretty tall for a riccia/ hairgrass/ rocks Amano set-up, I think they work best in longer shallow tanks.

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Back in the saddle!

That is why I liked the picture where the top is cut off, it makes the tank more longish and shallow. I agree that the 73 (and the 12) would probably create too much empty space. My 40G would be much better suited for it, so hand over the Riccia rocks

Ingo

PS: I guess I take the ghost town comment as a compliment , sorry I was so busy at work

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40G would be much better suited for it, so hand over the Riccia rocks

Yeah I see what you mean about the long shallow tank. Do you see what riccia is going for these days. I'm rich, I tell ya, rich, rich....

PS: I guess I take the ghost town comment as a compliment , sorry I was so busy at work

Absolutely.

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I'm rich, I tell ya, rich, rich....

No - NowherMan6 is Rich, you are Jeff

I guess my absence made you all very confused



Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

No no Ingo, that's OK - he can be Rich with the 4gallon nano if he says so. I'll be Jeff with the awesome riccia foreground and new saltwater tank. Woohoo!

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Back in the saddle!

Ingo,

No no Ingo, that's OK - he can be Rich with the 4gallon nano if he says so. I'll be Jeff with the awesome riccia foreground and new saltwater tank. Woohoo!

ADA aquasoil, I'm rich, I tell you, rich, rich....


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Ahh it seems that the grass or should I say the planted tanks are always greener on the other side!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Well it's been a fun night I came home from work to find a my son complaining of a leak in his ceiling because we've been running the AC 24/7 and then I find my bolivian ram almost black in color sitting on the bottom of the substrate and my male german ram swimming out of control turning end over end.

I've been having trouble lately with my regulator and I think it's damaged or I damaged the low pressure gauge but there was definitely to much co2 in the water. I immediately raised my spray bar out of the water, shut off the co2 and did a 30% water change. Hopefully I caught it in time. I guess eventually something has to happen

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Glad you caught it in time. Keep us posted on your rams & if they fully recovered.

Cheers
TW

Thanks Robyn, I think I did. Both blue rams are swimming around together like nothing happened and my male Bolivian looks a little better, but I haven't been able to locate the female yet.

About an hour ago the blue ram was swimming aimlessly getting caught up in the plants. I've seen this happen when I tried to acclimate new fish at nite when the co2 was at it's highest. After leaving the bag the fish would immediately go to the surface and when I put them back in the bag they would recover. I guess that confirms I'm running pretty high on the co2.

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Tetratech,

Glad to hear that you see to have corrected the issue in time, did you find the female by now?

What exactly is the problem with your regulator, given that I have the same. BTW, I also have the self-made version from Aquariumplants.com, the one that is about $40 more expensive. Although I can tell that the needle valve threading is better and you can adjust the flow more easily, I still had the same issues (and occasionally still do now) where it adjusts itself, down and up.

About the high CO2: I know that you are one of the most careful Acclimators that I know of. Wouldn't you have driven up the CO2 content in the bag to almost tank levels during that phase? Or can it be that the drip method gives the CO2 (in tiny bubble form) enough time to dissolve before it mixes into the bag water (via exposure to air of the small drops that are added)?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

What exactly is the problem with your regulator, given that I have the same. BTW, I also have the self-made version from Aquariumplants.com, the one that is about $40 more expensive. Although I can tell that the needle valve threading is better and you can adjust the flow more easily, I still had the same issues (and occasionally still do now) where it adjusts itself, down and up.

Two things, one I somewho broke the right (low pressure) gauge. It registers pretty much off the scale to the right and the adjustment does not feel right. Like it's not threading correctly. I think I did the damage when I opened the cylinder valve and forgot to open the adjustment knob. BTW last week I refilled my co2 cylinder for the third time and I think I just refilled it two months ago, so something is amiss.

About the high CO2: I know that you are one of the most careful Acclimators that I know of. Wouldn't you have driven up the CO2 content in the bag to almost tank levels during that phase? Or can it be that the drip method gives the CO2 (in tiny bubble form) enough time to dissolve before it mixes into the bag water (via exposure to air of the small drops that are added)?

I did think the same thing, but I probably lost alot of co2 when I removed the water from the tank to put in the bags. Although I acclimated for about 2 hours, apparantly it wasn't enough. In retrospect, the water is dripping into the bag thru the air and probably dispelling much of it's co2 content.

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So when you set up a drip line you do not have it running right into the water colume in the bucket?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

So when you set up a drip line you do not have it running right into the water colume in the bucket?

I was actually filling a tall bowl of water from the tank and placing it on top of the glass top. From that tall bowl it would drip into the floating bag, but to answer you question it was dripping above the water column in the bag because I wanted to see the rate. When I started doing the drip method I wasn't running my co2 nearly as high and I didn't really think about it. Now when I acclimate I'll have to make sure the tubing is below the WC (water column, not water change so I don't lose the co2.

BTW - I think I dodged a bullet. All my fish are accounted. I really thought one of the rams was a gonna. Recovery from co2 OD is alot different than a disease.

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Oh good,

Glad to hear all are well. Yeah, placing the hose below the water surface may help. So you say you take water out of the tank and place it in a bowl? This way, you may already have lost a lot of CO2 through surface agitation and such.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I am with LF. Go strait from the tank to the bag and bucket.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Yep, makes since to preserve the co2 some more. As I said when I first started doing drip acclimation I wasn't running co2 like I am now so it didn't matter.



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Glad to see everything turned out OK. I had similar experiences with acclimating new fish in the old 46 - I had a sparkling gourami try jumping out of the tank I guess that's the ultimate sign to pull back on the CO2 a bit...

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Back in the saddle!

I had a sparkling gourami try jumping out of the tank I guess that's the ultimate sign to pull back on the CO2 a bit...

Yeah I was say a fish doing somersaults or jumping out of a the tank is a good indicator

Anyway some random pics:

This is a shot of the foreground showing the wisteria crawling through openings in the rock and then appearing on the other side. I leave it few seems to make things more interesting.

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A closer shot of the wisteria breaking the beachfront:



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Stargrass is a beautiful plant, but I must admit I'm getting alittle tired of the maintenance (Is there a chnage coming). It simply grows to fast (Gotta be top 10 grower), but at a certain point it looks great, but it only last a day or two before it grows to too (Right Ingo). It's tough to beat for it's contrasting leaf shapes and ability to cascade over other plants and objects:







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Well I have to show the rams, since they were almost history. A fish doing somersaults is usually not a good sign, but they both seem fine:



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Here's the male that I thought was a gonna:



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And his main and only squeeze:



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wow your blue rams are real diferent to mine. mine have shorter stockyer bodys and much more blue. whats that puffy looken plant in the forground...i wants some

(Right Ingo)

Right - I completely agree with your statement. I debate with myself rather often if I should replace the plant with another one, ripping my roughly 70 to 100 stems out every 2 to 3 weeks, cutting off the rotting bottoms, and replanting all tops in bunches is very high maintenance, not to mention the water pollution caused by the rotting.

Wisteria: creeping to the beach. Looks nice because it looks natural, but it carries a danger. Because it is literally creeping up on you, you have to be careful to catch it in the right moment and trim it back, before it causes shading of the Riccia.

Beachfront shot: Hey - there are more rocks that scream "I want to have some Riccia too"

Surviving Rams:

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Beachfront shot: Hey - there are more rocks that scream "I want to have some Riccia too

No way, some rocks must remain just rocks for constrast.

A couple of full tank shots from tonite. I'm 100% convinced the high co2 I'm running eliminates virtually all plant problems, although I'm running a fine line between fish and co2. When the co2 goes down based on inconsistency the BBA opened a door and came in, with the co2 high and steady the bba just disappears.



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Although I'm happy with the tank and I've said I was done, I'm thinking I might "refresh" things in the near future.



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I'm thinking I might "refresh" things in the near future

That's our form of fun and demise , we just cannot keep our hands out of the tanks, and I am the leader of that pack.

As usual, tank looks nice, although I have to say that currently you have a triangle again, with a cut off section all the way to the left.

I don't know if I dare to fire up my CO2 as high as you do, the thin line seems to be very thin, it would make me worried all the time.

How are the rainbows doing?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

That's our form of fun and demise , we just cannot keep our hands out of the tanks, and I am the leader of that pack.

Yes I would agree with that statement

The rainbows are fine. I actually like the two of them they school (semi-private lessons) quite nicely, but Bensaf said they were light waste producers. As you probably know these guys like their food and seem to be pooping alot enough through I'm a Micro-Feeder.



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Have the rainbows gotten you wet during feeding time yet? Mine do about every day!

Lighting: I had no idea you were not running a 4 food ficture on your tank. That is quite interesting to me.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Lighting: I had no idea you were not running a 4 food ficture on your tank. That is quite interesting to me.

Do you mean 4 tube fixture?

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No I thought you had a 4 foot CL not a 3 footer.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

yeah tetra, I'm lazy (and at work ) so I don't want to go back and read - what didn't you go for the coralife 48" fixture?

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Back in the saddle!

No I thought you had a 4 foot CL not a 3 footer.

I don't have any Clown Loaches

Anyway I think it's funny after 72 pages you guys didn't realize what kind of light I had. r
After doing enough research and using my experience from my old 46G I did not want to have the light that the 48" reflector offered. It would have given me about 3.6wpg. I wanted to be closer to 3.0wpg and the 36" reflector gave me 2.7wpg. BTW I started off with a current usa 36" reflector and one of the ballast broke and replaced it with the Coralife fixture. A much better product. The Current USA fixture I had was so cumbersome with 4 plugs(2 light, 2 fans and an idiotic night light right in the middle where the tank support goes. S

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What?

You have a 4 foot long Clown Loach?



That's how rumours start.

Although I did never have a different brand of CF lighting, I second the notion that the CoraLife fixtures are very good, and on top reasonably priced. I have 3 and I am constantly wondering if I should get another one for the 20G, but that may give it too much light (3.25wpg), but that is how much I like it.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

That's an interesting solution. I'm having a similar problem - I wish they made the 96 watt bulbs in a 48" fixture Tough I guess if you had the 48" fixture you could have gone with 2 bulbs for most of the time, then have a 3hr spurt with all four on, kind of a noontime sort of thing...

EDIT: Just realized I wrote that as if there was a problem with what you have now

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Back in the saddle!

Well in a perfect world if I got the 48" maybe my aromatica would be more red, but what can I say, you have to take the good with the bad. I'm not complaining, but maybe now my tank can handle the add'l wattage. Anyway right now my noon time burst is about 6 hours. So I have 96watts from 9:30 to 12:00, 192 watts from 12:00 to 6:00 and then 96 watts from 6:00 to 8:30.

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CL.... opps!

You know what I meant though!

I see your resoning with the light. I am sure if I would have took the time to think about it then it would have sunk in. Though I did nothing of the sort.

If you went with either of the 4 footers then you would have 1.8 or 3.6 thus too much or not enough. Going with the shorter fixture works. In my case I think I am lucky running 3.25 all the time. I probably would have been better off to run t5's.

Anyways... sorry about all the craziness!



55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

From a visual point of view I think it does look nicer whe nthe fixture is all the way across and lifted by arms an inch or so, something I can't do. I'm still debating whether I should add the full canopy to the top to give it a more built-in appearance. I used to have this on my 46g which LF hated. I would agree on that tank it look alittle tall, but on the 72g it might look good, although it will be a pain considering all the times I have my hands in the tank, so full canopys and hi-tech planted tanks probably don't mix. I could actually suspend the light from the top, but then the wires will still go down. Coralife sells a suspension cable for their CF light fixtures.

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A Riccia Balloon?

The post-waterchange pearling on my riccia apparently his lifted this group off it's rock. It was obviously overdue for a trim but the o2 bubbles are trying to take it to it's natural place at the surface.





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Yes I would agree with that statement

Well I was also guilty of that at the weekend. Everything in the tank was growing forward towards the glass so I decided to thin things out and make a few changes, and tetra, will be glad to know, make the driftwood a bit more visible.

Anyhows I went to the aquatic market to pick up a few things. A very strange collection of fish was available some of which I couldn't name at all. But I did see one thing that horrified me - Balloon Red Rainbows



Yep, what at first glance looked like balloon mollies were in fact stumpy balloon Irian Jaya Rainbows. One of the most beautiful freshwater fishes available reduced to a stumpy little freak. ARRRR Expect to see them in the US in the coming months and don't buy them.

Did have some young Indian Glassfish which were very very pretty and tempting , but I already have a hotch potch of fish.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

tetratech - Not only is your Riccia beautiful , it also has a built in warning system informing you when it is time for a trim. Couldn't get any better

Bensaf - Yeah, I hate it when they do this to fish, I wonder who would buy them and why. On a slightly different topic, have you ever seen or had any of the various Rice Fishies? They seem to be a cute bunch, and small on top of it. What do you know about them?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

might have been already said but in the left hand corner up front is that hair grass? or the blyxe

Well I was also guilty of that at the weekend. Everything in the tank was growing forward towards the glass so I decided to thin things out and make a few changes, and tetra, will be glad to know, make the driftwood a bit more visible.

"A picture is worth a thousand words"

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The riccia has really taken off lately, literally. I think it's because it's getting more light (more seperation between backgroud and foreground plants. Here's a shot of my female ram getting some veggies:



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This stuff crawls:



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A picture is worth a thousand words"

That will come in time. Got to let it recover from a severe hacking. I do like it though, got more shape and depth now.

You know you are doomed to have Riccia forever after, whether you want it or not !

I got rid of mine almost a year ago but it still pops up. Even now. After I thinned out the Xmas moss which had got too thick I found pieces of Riccia in the middle stuck to the wood and still living. It's turning bright green again now. Pretty indestructible.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

You know you are doomed to have Riccia forever after, whether you want it or not !

Your probably right. I actually got lazy once and cut the riccia in the tank, but I quickly netted most of the pieces, but I'm sure there are pieces floating around. When it's healthy, it sure is pretty....

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Mosses are another good way to "plant" your Riccia, they almost form a symbiosis - The moss serves as the anchor for the growing Riccia. It the Riccia is growing too muc, the moss gets shaded too much and starts to die off, which, in turn, will cause the Riccia on it to float up and as such giving more light to the moss to regrow.

At least that is how it is in theory

On the other hand, my Riccia - Moss mix on the rocks of Rock Valley causes too much dying material underneath and on top of it created a beautiful breeding ground for BGA.

Ingo

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Mosses are another good way to "plant" your Riccia, they almost form a symbiosis - The moss serves as the anchor for the growing Riccia. It the Riccia is growing too muc, the moss gets shaded too much and starts to die off, which, in turn, will cause the Riccia on it to float up and as such giving more light to the moss to regrow.

Sounds interesting, but is there a fine line between it looking good and looking like a mess.

Anyway, since you guys are so keen on talking about dward cichlids does anyone thing this comparison shot (not the best I know) of my bolivian is simply young versus old. He just doesn't look like he used to and the rams have stopped breeding. The top pic is about a year ago and he was fullier and rounder the bottom one is fairly current.

EDIT: Also his eye in the bottom shot looks much bigger in relation to his body.


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The difference is certainly there - is that bright red spot on his gill normal?

Rams are short lived, most say 2-3 years. I don't know if that applies to bolivians as well. It's possible you may have gotten him when he was a almost a year old, and now he's an old man at 2

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Back in the saddle!

Most sites are saying 2 to 4 years for Bolivians.

The red is more a flush. He doesn't really have that much red there. I had him in my 46g for quite some time, before this so it's possible I've had him for as much as 18months, plus his age when I purchased. he definitely wasn't full grown when I bought him. I'll have to see if I could find some eariler pics.

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Hey, he survived green water, willow twigs, and what not - what do you expect?

Seriously, is his body coloration always this dark these days? If I am not mistaken, doesn't that indicate being scared or unhappy? It could, of course, also mean old age though.

Being so young in this hobby eleminates me from having experience with fish dying of old age, so I really cannot help there this much, sorry about that.

Ingo

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Hey, he survived green water, willow twigs, and what not - what do you expect

You forgot brewery, yep he survived that as well.

He's not usually as dark as the pic, but he does get very dark and sits on the bottom when the Co2 is too high. He and the blue rams seem to be most affected. I guess he's just an old man.

I took this pic the other day showing lots of activity. I was able to count all my cardinals and they are all fine. I can't remember the last time I lost one. Again I really think the UV is a big in this regard.





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Nice Shot,

"Picknick at the Riccia Field"

Interestingly, I observed yesterday that the new male Apisto has a dark gray body coloration when scared, and there were a few times yesterday when this happened during transport and acclimatization.

Are you sure he is not scared of something? Did this start to happen after the Rainbows were added?

Ingo

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It's possible. The only thing I've noticed lately is that my female blue ram has gotten more aggressive and is starting to bully the male (coloring not as good).

Oh, what a minute......

I think, yep part of his caudal fin tip is missing, someone's picking on him and I think it's the blue ram. Wow Ingo you know your "little" fish.

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Well Thanks,

Now, if we only would know why he gets picked at. It may be simply because he is getting old and can't move fast enough out of way anymore.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Could be or just a littie overcrowded and the danger of mixing rams. Now that the blues have settled in I think they are laying down the law especially the female.

What do you think of putting the two blues in my 12g and and removing the loaches and gold tetras and just leaving the blues with the cherry shrimps. Ideally would like to get rid of my rummys, pencils and black neons, but some have been with me so long, I hate to give them back to a LFS.

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Give it a try, but I wouldn't feel safe mixing rams with cherries, they're just too small. Amanos, fine. Cherries? Could turn out bad.

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Your probably right about the cherries. See I need another tank. I have a 46g but that tank went to the darkside of the moss(still deciding on equipment) and I have a 5g in the garage. I need a "Fish Room"

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I am with NowherMan6 on the shrimp/Ram issue, might be too risky.

Otherwise, I think you have reached (or even surpassed) the point of saturation. Of course we all will go and tell you to get an additional tank , and I am sure that NowherMan6 and I would come all the way to LI to persuade your wife that this is the only "right" way, but you have to let us swim in the pool, and a dinner wouldn't be too bad either

Ingo

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but you have to let us swim in the pool

Well if you guys ever take a road trip, I'll be more than happy to accomodate.

I forgot about my son's guppy tank, but that ones overloaded with guppies, two zebra fish that never die and a Bristlenose. That is the one tank in my house that almost never gets a water change (just topoff) and everything is fine. One of the zebras gets a swollen belly and it looks like it's gonna pop and then next thing I know the belly looks normal and it does the same thing a few weeks down the road.

It's a ten gallon with a stanard tubelight.



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