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Grandpa,
Did you see the end of my post?
I'm not sure what Bensaf is referring to as a "niche", but one thing is certain from his above statement - NH3 is in the water column feeding the algae. So it's possible that no3 and po4 aren't responsible and you might not get a huge nh3 spike because guess who's eating it - ALGAE.

There's two separate issues AC and the Biofilter.
The AC does absorb NH3, yes or no?
The Biofilter (cycle) does convert NH3 to N03, yes or no?

Please have you answers by end of class!


Last edited by tetratech at 12-Oct-2005 09:22

My Scapes

Did you see the end of my post?

I only saw a red mist by the time I got that far
Actually you must have posted that while I was typing. It wasn't there when I started, honest !

The AC does absorb NH3, yes or no?

I have no idea. I would doubt it as anybody who was running a tank with AC would never have a cycle.

The Biofilter (cycle) does convert NH3 to N03, yes or no?

Of course as I already said.

Of course I'm in agreement with the last statement you made. I said from a while back NH3 is far more of a problem with algae then No3 or PO4.But if i remember rightly you dismissed that because your test kit is reading 0 NH3. Does this mean you are starting to see my point ?

What I mean by niche is that algae habitat in a different level of the eco system. With healthy growing plants there's no room, the higher order beings (plants) see to that. PLant growth stalls and there's a gap in the eco system for algae to call home. Excess nutrients (at least of the type we delibertely put in) don't really come into it so much.

This is so much more fun then school

Last edited by bensaf at 12-Oct-2005 09:35

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Dear Grandpa,

How are you today? I am fine

Could you be so nice and tell your grandchildren a nice story? How about the one where you set up your very first heavily planted tank? And don’t worry, we will stay focused when you tell us all the details as we are not sleepy yet. We for sure would like to know the ups and downs you encountered so we can learn from them once we grow up and become successful planters ourselves.

Your bratty grandchild,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The interesting thing is I have virtually no algae on any of my plants.

Most of your plants were already established from your old tank. Ingo on the other hand was starting from scratch, and who knows what they went thru before reaching him.
My set up only took a few hours so yes I probably had a better bio colony then you. Hence your relatively minor problems.

The exchange between Bensaf and me on the algae I view as a fun and healthy debate that makes FP what it is.

Me too. But I am keeping notes of the beer you 2 guys owe me
The wife thinks this is hilarious and the 3 of us need serious help or at least get rat faced drunk oonce in a while ]

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

So far, I counted 16 Guinness and a case of German Beer

And about the getting drunk together, tetratech and I live close to each other so you would have to come over here. I am sure we could arrange a nice party, or two, or three.

Ingo

BTW, congrats on the 4th star

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 12-Oct-2005 09:47

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Actually dear boy, and you'll hate me for this, there's nothing to tell. I started it up 2 years ago and tore it down on sunday. Didn't know what the hell I was doing but never ever had a serious algae problem. But then I was low light and and no Co2. As I learned and got more interested I changed to Co2 and more. No ferts at all. Then I had issues, nothing major but a lot of niggly little things.Once I started the nutrients properly and got the Co2 right everything went away nver at any problems since. That in itself convinced we that lack of nutrients is the real problem causer. Nothing since then has ever changed my mind. Only time I've seen problems or algae is when I haven't dosed.

Thank you, congrats on your 1 gold star . Tetra the "fish master" must be too chicken to show his

Man, we should be on stage.

Last edited by bensaf at 12-Oct-2005 09:52

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Had to grab a cup of green tea (I have 72g worth) but I'm ready to continue.

So the bio filter doesn't absorb anything, it simply converts into a different form.
Absorbtion, conversion what's the difference. Bottom line -It's taking something away from the algae before they can use it.

I have no idea. I would doubt it as anybody who was running a tank with AC would never have a cycle. Let's not deal in absolutes. The AC does remove NH3!

Amano:
Activated carbon serves to absorb the tank's ammonia and nitric acid from fish waste-products.

Department of Fisheries and Wildlife Sciences - Fish Farming Study:
In chemical filtration, water is pumped through a chemical media of activated carbon, These chemicals have microscopic pores that trap ammonia ions and remove them from the water.


Should I go on. Way better than school.

My Scapes

I think the discussion if Ammonia is absorbed by AC or not is not getting us anywhere.

And here are my reasons why:

- I have no Ammonia in the tank, without AC
- Plants prefer Ammonia over Nitrate, but my Nitrate is taken up
- My plants must take up the Ammonia; otherwise I would have green tea (I have all others, why not this one )

How come you have Ammonia tetratech, you even used old gravel? Not enough plants I guess. And Bensaf always said that you need loads of plants. You both are right, each in his own way .

Ingo

EDIT: Yeah tetratech, open up your stars so we can see how you shine

EDIT EDIT: And when I look at both of your AquaRank Counters

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 12-Oct-2005 10:11

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well I posted before that whole exchange. Did someone say something about stars? Not important to me.

Anyway:
LM sorry I meant LF, did you check your nh3 levels within the first week, also I think (and I'm probably wrong, but you might not detect the NH3 because the algae is using it instead of the biofilter converting and the AC absorbing.

LF - You taking on Amano and the Dept. of Fish & Wildlife too.

Last edited by tetratech at 12-Oct-2005 10:58

My Scapes

Tonight I am too tired to rant about my algae problems, it's getting boring anyway (for the audience, not me).

So I will entertain you with 2 Espei and 2 Oto pictures that I took just now. If you want to see more algae pics, let me know and I post them tomorrow.

Espei I

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Espei II

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Oto I

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Oto II

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hey LF,
Yes, I agree we need a break from anything green. Nice pics. Is it still just the otos and espeis in the tank?



My Scapes

if anyone needs a stiff drink I do believe it is me:%)I just sat here and read through what is that 9 pages? yes I think it is 9 pages one of those things I've been meaning to catch up with but uh work has whipped my rear

Anyways Ingo the tank is looking good, makes me so envious, but I'm too chicken to go into CO2 and fertilizers, at least for the time beingmaybe soon, in say the next year:%) If and when I do I know I'll have 3 people to come and pester, a grumpy grandpa, and 2 brothers that doesn't sound right:88) but oh well who cares at this point

Just thought I'd break up the boredom of ya'll 3 (almost didn't), but it's looking great I haven't had algae problems myself except once and then it simply went away *shrugs* leslie's 10 gallon is another story, so Ingo and Ben, when ya'll are through fighting with the 125 want to come and fix Leslie's new 10 and the algae in it? Then ya'll can decorate my 29 that i've begun to redo...

Heidi

EDIT: TetraTech why are your stars so much larger than the rest of ours? and you only have gold ones5 at that did you booger up the last test

<<<is not afraid to show her 10 gold stars hml

Last edited by houston at 12-Oct-2005 22:20

"I've got a great ambition to die of exhaustion rather than boredom." Thomas Carlyle

I have nothing constructive to add, just wanted to say that you three are cracking me up.
I can imagine 3 middle-aged men (sorry tetra, just assuming, don't know how old you are) sitting in an Irish pub consuming pints of beer and having a heated debate on planted tanks and origins of different algae species. Would someone buy the movie rights?

-P

Tetra,
That AV cracked me up, got to wipe off the coffee I spluttered all over the screen

I bow to the fish master (see no sarcatic inverted commas ). I didn't know that about the AC. Ya live ya learn.

Ingo I think you're looking for attention Everytime you post pics I can't see any algae just clean healthy plants. Them Espei are nice. Is that Glosso I see ?

Being thinking about this. As tetra pointed out I used a layer of evil gunk from my old tank when starting up the new one.Tom Barr has always pushed using a thin layer of old tank mulm in the bottom of a new tank. Even with the Amano substrates he also adds a couple of chems to the bottom, forget the names, one is a strange looking white powder. These are all for the purpose of establishing good bacteria very quickly. It's more then just a cycling thing. The bacteria help out the plants, provide oxygen to the roots and aid in breaking down organic matter quickly. I learned in the later life of my tank that too much organic matter can cause strange issues.
Now I can't remember (and this thread is now too long to go back looking for things) if you added any old stuff when starting up this tank ? Plus you have a very small number of fish ATM. Rasboras and Ottos are light at the best of times, in a 125gal they won't make a dent. It wouldn't surprise me if you have no bacteria colony at all in place. This may be causing problems. Your test kit may read O NH3, but remember algae need quanities so small, way below what the average test kit can record.
Maybe if you start getting you fish stock up to normal it might make a differnce in establishing a bio colony. Of course more fish = more waste so things may hit a peak with additional ammonia getting in before the colony gets going and things balance out. Another option is adding some of those nitrfying bacteria powders, you have them there ?

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Would someone buy the movie rights?

Could be Spielbergs next epic. "War of the Algaes"

But who would play us ? I'm thinking Bruce Willis, George Clooney and Tom Cruise would be a fair representation.

Who you calling middle aged ?

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Hey now, no talking about age I refuse to get older, and if ya'll are middle age (I remember a thread about age, not algae related:%)) and ya'll two are not that much older than I am, so ya'll can't be middle age, because uh, well I just refuse to follow suit

I think if we are going to continue this discussion we need something to drink *passess out drinks to those involved*

I really had something important to say, but uh i've forgotten, damn old age

Heidi

ps ben i still owe you some dallas cowboy cheerleaders, the calendars should be in send me a snail mail if i mail it soon you might get it before Christmas 2006

"I've got a great ambition to die of exhaustion rather than boredom." Thomas Carlyle

Before I comment on all the nice entries, here is a quick shot in response to:

Everytime you post pics I can't see any algae just clean healthy plants.

My special friends living in perfect harmony

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Now to answer the rest of the comments

tetratech – yes, there are still only the 12 Espei and 3 Otos in the tank, plus a hitchhiking variety of snails (at least pond and ramshorn have been detected, I think I saw on the first day also a Malaysian trumpet) and an undisclosed number of Espei fry that might be eaten by now.

Heidi – thanks for the entry, I appreciate that you read through 8,325 pages just to get an update of what is going on here . I suggest you wait a while before you get into CO2 so you can learn from all the funky things that happen to tetratech and me.

upicabu – actually, we are missing you in the mix as you are always good for a laugh (see sending out wife to get fleet) .

Bensaf – In list form ()

** Yeah, our friend tetratech is great at inventing stuff, he probably will insist that we call him “Fish General” now .
** Yes, that is Glosso that you see. I ordered a few batches but only one arrived and so I spread it out in front of “Rock-Valley”. It is forming a few strands now and I hope it will someday fill in that section.
** I had no evil gunk available for this tank as I would have had to strip the only settled tank (29G) of all of its gravel to even make a dent in the 125.
** I think at this time I am not ready to increase my fish load. I am thinking about adding my 3 Otos from the 29G to the tank (and/or maybe get some more from the LFS), but that would be about it. And just maybe I add a SAE if I find one and if I accept its final size (6 inches) as feasible for my small fishies. I do have a new batch of Bio Spira that I bought when I ordered all the stuff for this tank. It is, in my opinion, the best “seeder” out there. The potential ammonia spike makes me worried about the Espei fry though. I will think about it.
** “War of the Algaes” sounds like a good title . But your actor selection is not my taste, except if I am played by Tom Cruise. And I imagine you more like a younger John Wayne. Tetratech will have to pick his own stand-in. And at the end of the movie, Tom Barr has a short appearance as Obi-wan Kenobi and Amano as Yoda.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Sorry I missed all the action last nite.

That AV cracked me up, got to wipe off the coffee I spluttered all over the screen
I thought you'd get a kick out of it. I'm back to my regular AV. The wisteria grove.

I bow to the fish master
It's 'bout time I got one in to your 999.

EDIT: TetraTech why are your stars so much larger than the rest of ours? and you only have gold ones5 at that did you booger up the last test
What can I say.

Would someone buy the movie rights?
I think we could start on the fish club and show circuit. Just print out this thread and learn your lines.

Yeah, our friend tetratech is great at inventing stuff, he probably will insist that we call him “Fish General” now
I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy

Tom Barr has a short appearance as Obi-wan Kenobi
I really think Bensaf has to play Obi-wan. After all Obi-wan is Uncle Ben to Luke.

Last edited by tetratech at 13-Oct-2005 05:49

My Scapes

OK now this is going to become one of those addictive threads isn't it:%)

Anyways that looks like an interesting bunch of "gunk" on what, the rocks Ingo?

I must admit it is enjoyable to watch ya'll banter this back and forth, and trust me i'll hold off on any chance of using CO2 till ya'll can get it figured out, I'll simply stick to my simple anacharis and java moss with the corries splashing about being the silly kids that they are And I don't think I would want to seriously work with it till I move and get settled into wherever that might be after Christmas, ie don't want to start something, tear it down and have to start again, just seems logical to me

Anyways find the fry and give us some pictures Fry are always awesome to see

heidi

"I've got a great ambition to die of exhaustion rather than boredom." Thomas Carlyle

Heidi - thanks for the comment, and yes, the gunk is on a rock .

All -

I took the day off from work as, based on the rainfall amount of the last 2 days, our backyard turned into a little lake and I was somewhat worried that the basement, where the tank is, will flood. It did, but only a little and in the opposite corner of the room.

As such I had quite some time to stare at the tank and wonder what was wrong with it. My conclusion – No Clue . One thing I measured was the Phosphate which seems to be almost down to 2ppm. I am hoping that my issues stem from levels that once were up to 10ppm.

I wiggled my hand between the plants to get some of the slime algae out and did a major cleaning of the Xmas moss. To my surprise, under all this algae of all kinds is still some moss left.

In the afternoon, I called the LFS if they got the SAE they mentioned on Monday, but no, only false ones. Also, the Otos they got are small and that is too scary for me. based on my little experience with them and info I got from Calilasseia it is in particular the small (young) ones that die off soon after arrival. So, no changes in the fish load. I also removed all of the Rotala as it was filled with gunk (algae) and didn’t look good at all anymore. I placed some cutting from my weed plant (aka Water Sprite) in its place.

O the algae frontier, I see that I get more of the 2 to 3 inches long single threads, on plants as well as on the gravel. They attach rather solidly as pulling on them lifts grains of gravel up as well.

Being bored and annoyed by the look, I decided to do a 50% water change, the least I should get out of it is a reduction in Silica, the food for the brown slime. I did the change although I risked sucking out my fry but fortunately I still found some afterwards. Man, I am getting way too attached to these tiny buggers.

The picture below shows the tank after all of this. You can also see the 2 additional pumps that are helping me with the creation of a better water distribution throughout the tank (on back left, one right front). I sure seems to make the water flow better; now let’s see if this will help me.

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And here is a closer look at the right front corner that hasn’t seen too much algae (don’t ask me why, I don’t know, maybe it is the tons of Water Sprite behind it):

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

Is their anything shading the right front corner. Plants, equip, etc?

My Scapes

Not really tetratech,

Just the hight of the Water Sprite is shading the plants in the front. But at some point the Water Sprite was rather small.

Do you think I have less problems there because of the lack of light on the gorund? Makes sense to me.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Look, it's so easy for everyone to say it's this or it's that. Your the one with the tank and who knows your tap might have something in it, bottom line is who knows?

Your tank has alot of light. I think my tank has 2.7wpg yours alittle over 3. Our tanks are the same depth. So your plants are getting alot more light than the difference in the wpg. At the startup your plants might not have been making full use of the light based on everything discussed, this could easy have opened the door (just a crack, because that's all algae needs) for the nasty stuff to grow. If I was in your shoes and again I'm not saying this is right or I know the answer, but I would:

1. Cut back alot of growth that has the algae, even if it's drastic.
2. Throw a ton of floating plants in the tank (hygro)
3. Add the Purigen to your filter to destroy the crap that that the algae is feeding on.
4. After you do all that do another 50% wc.
5. Reduce wattage or hours of light duration.
6. Reduce ferts to minimum of EI recommendation

Bensaf might disown me after saying all this, but I don't thing you have much to lose. You know the plants will grow back, you've proved that the plants will grow.

My Scapes

And I imagine you more like a younger John Wayne

Huh??????
Not quite sure how to take that. Always wanted to be Steve McQueen though or a young Paul Newman. They were cool personified.

Avoid False SAE's like the plague !!!!! I got stuck with one once. Man, I truly truly hated that fish. They get much bigger then SAE's (which probably won't hit 6", but eitherway stays a relatively slim bodied fish)and fat and ugly. Don't do a damn thing for algae. His only purpose in life was to eat whatever ground cover plants I put in and poop everywhere constantly ]:|]:|]:| Took me months to catch him and consign him to the salt mines of my brother in laws tank. Never so happy to see a fish go.

The plants still looking good.Fine growth going on there.

Tetra, I'm not going to berate you at all. Sounds like a fine sensible plan to me. Only thing would be on the light, I'd opt for reducing the wattage rather then the duration. 3wpg is a huge amount of light over a 125. 2wpg over a tank that size would be considered high.
One option is to run it "Amano" style. Lowish for the entire photo period and a 2-4 blast of full light in the middle. If your timer and lighting set up allow you to this it's a good option. Keeps good growth going but it's also less of a tightrope being walked then when you have high light.
As tetra pointed out in my thread I only have just over 2wpg in a 23inch deep tank. Works just fine and dandy, no intention of going higher. More light = less room for mistakes and more work.



Last edited by bensaf at 13-Oct-2005 21:27

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

*peeks in*

wooo look at those chain swords go!

I agree with tetratech and Bensaf. I looked in here earlier and I thought to suggest decreasing the intensity of light until things really get cooking (with gas[co2] so to speak). I didn't post cause I didn't know what had gone on in the last 40 or so pages and thought it would have been mentioned. Once everything gets established well I think you could run it full blast.

*shuts door to LF log and runs away*

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

I really like the water sprite. Your's seems to be growing like a weed, and you mentioned that it's a "weed". So now I shall pick ya'll's brains:

1. How easy is it to grow?
2. Is it a low light compatible plant?
3. Any idea if I might be able to keep it alive?

I'm asking because at the last fish auction there was tons of it, and I might be willing to try it in the 29, I'm thinking that tank has roughly heck if I know 29 gallon @ 40 watts, whatever that works out to be.

I did get it once, but before I could get it planted the corries that were in the tank with it, uh kind of undid the weights and destroyed it, even tossing it in the 2.5 didn't seem to save it, and that tank I can't kill plants in.

Ok enough for tonight, gonna follow matty's idea and run for my life

hml

"I've got a great ambition to die of exhaustion rather than boredom." Thomas Carlyle

Let me respond first to the last 2 plant comments before I get into the suggested routine change.

Matty, the plants that you see in the foreground are actually Dwarf Sags, although I smuggled in 3 or 4 Chain Swords about a week ago. The Sags actually haven’t multiplied all that much, there are maybe 3 new ones coming up. The Swords are in there for about 5 days and are still getting used to the situation.

Heidi, I think the Water Sprite should grow in your tank as well, just make sure you plant it where it has the most light. It for sure will not tank off like it does in my Super Tank () but it should grow. I also heard that some fish like to eat it (and snails too).

Change of Routine:

Ok, so let’s dissect a potential new routine as suggested by tetratech (love the list ):

1. Cut back alot of growth that has the algae, even if it's drastic. --- Almost impossible as most is on the gravel, rocks, and Anubias leaves. I will cut others as suggested.
2. Throw a ton of floating plants in the tank (hygro) --- hygro what? Difformis?
3. Add the Purigen to your filter to destroy the crap that that the algae is feeding on. --- If you mean Ammonia, wouldn’t that conclude that any potential buildup of good bacteria will die and the tank will not cycle? I would assume my issues stem from high phosphates and Purigen would not remove that (right?).
4. After you do all that do another 50% wc. --- Ok, next one is due on Sunday anyway.
5. Reduce wattage or hours of light duration. --- I reduced the duration of the second light to 3 hours midday.
6. Reduce ferts to minimum of EI recommendation --- And how would I calculate a “minimum”? Sounds like a paradox – “a minimum of overdose”.

What is the audience thinking about my phosphate = culprit theory?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

6. Reduce ferts to minimum of EI recommendation --- And how would I calculate a "minimum"? Sounds like a paradox a minimum of overdose.

You have a nutrient calculator ? You can dose daily at say 5ppm of No3 and 0.5ppm of PO4. You still have everything you need but nothing should get out of hand. With the growth on that tank your should be uptaking about 2-5ppm per day and a similar rate of PO4.. EI is fairly adaptable. You can stick to the 3 day routine and dose to a ppm you are comfortable with. Just be aware when trying to run "lean" there's a risk of bottoming out. The daily routine should avoid this.


Last edited by bensaf at 14-Oct-2005 04:57

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Almost impossible as most is on the gravel, rocks, and Anubias leaves
If there's that much on the gravel, I'm definitely thinking too much light along with all that fertile water. If you put the python on "high" will it suck up the gravel, if yes I would do this after you cleaned as much as you could than try to get as much out as possible.

ton of floating plants
I was thinking more like hygro polysmera, but I don't think it matters as long as you put alot in. Might be a different species that sucks up more.

Purigen
Whatever bio filter you have will not be bothered by the purigen. I was reading on APC that may advanced aquarists are using it with no side effects. Supposely it will not absorb macros and micros, so the plants will make use of it and the waste products will be absorbed by the Purigen so the algae can't get it. When I spoke to seachem they mentioned that Purigen get's rid of the support system for algae.



My Scapes

tetratech,

and the waste products will be absorbed – waste products that are generating ammonia, which is the base for beneficial bacteria development. No waste, no cycle. Do you know what I mean?
I am not too wild about the idea of removing the top layer of gravel in the front of the tank to remove the existing algae. Don’t you think the problem would solve itself (dying algae) when all other parameters are in sink?

Bensaf,

As the old and confused man I am, I don’t understand completely what you mean. Let me interpret and you tell me if I got that right:

- You can dose daily at say 5ppm of No3 --- Every day? I recently reduced my dosage (based on your tip) from 1 1/2tsp to 1 tsp every other day. 5ppm are achieved with 3/4tsp. This would mean that I have to up the dosage again?
- and 0.5ppm of PO4 --- Maybe you didn’t see this, but Phosphate is my No1 concern. I had up to 10ppm in the tank about a week ago and found out that my tab water contains about 2ppm. I since stopped the addition of phosphate all together and I am finally back down to a little over 2ppm. So you say I should add more?
- You can stick to the 3 day routine --- 3 days as in Macros every 2 days 3 times per week, micros the same but on the macro off days, right?

My recent (last complete week) “feeding” routine is as follows:

KNO3 – 1tsp 3 times per week
K2SO4 – once (yesterday) 0.25tsp
Plantex – 0.5tsp 3 times per week
Seachem Equilibrium – After water change (twice – Sunday and Thursday) 0.5tsp
Baking Soda - After water change (twice – Sunday and Thursday) 2tsp

As you can see, no Phosphates added and only once a touch of Potassium Sulfate.

None of you has yet made a statement (either way) about my Phosphate concerns. How come?

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 14-Oct-2005 08:29

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

and the waste products will be absorbed – waste products that are generating ammonia, which is the base for beneficial bacteria development
I'm sure you have a bacteria colony by now, even if it's not the biggest one. Did you ever get an nh3 reading at all. Do you think your tank is still not cycled? I think most of this damage was done it startup when their was nothing eating the nh3 and you had all that light going (it couldn't possibly be the po4 and no3
I was just thinking, call Seachem Tech Support 888.732.0003 ask them about the Purigen and if it would be benefical in this case. After all I'm not a Fish General yet

My Scapes

What I'm getting at is keep the levels low but consistent. You can do this by throwing in the bigger quantities 2 or 3 times a week OR you can micro-manage test and dose daily. You can go lower 2-3ppm.
It's putting a lot of reliance on the test kits though. Important things is not to bottom out. Small daily doses at least ensure you don't bottom out.

As to your PO4 question - possibly. 10ppm is way more then I would dare push it.But I'd suspect a combination of factors, new plants, new tank, no bio colony along with the very high PO4. I don't think it was the PO4 alone.

Last edited by bensaf at 14-Oct-2005 08:58

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

LF,
I think I just figured something out. You have all these established plants now. Probably some biofilter, remember life is shades of grey not b/w. Those plants are going to suck up nh3 and everything else, what do you care about how long it takes to establish the biofilter? It will get there, but slowly. Your going to create an environment where the algae can't survive. (Purigen, reduced light, etc.) You have very few fish, keep it that way for now so you don't get an nh3 spike. With all your plants now (not the cuttings you got when you started) and so few fish you will be fine without a hugh biofilter.

My Scapes

People, am I confused :%) :%)

Am I the only one here who is losing track of what we once called the overall idea of EI?
Or did we even concede and identified that EI is not working on a newly established tank, at least not in my case?
If my plants suck up the minimum of Ammonia that is produced by the few fish, why bother with Purigen?
EI means over-fertilization, why would I reduce to create a close to starvation environment?
What would be possibly an issue NOW if my Nitrates are 20ppm, Potassium 20ppm, Phosphates 2ppm, and micros so that the Iron seems to be ok?
Didn’t we once identify that each change should be given time to take effect?

Have I messed you all up with the panic I created about my algae? I have the impression that we reached a point where all info that is coming in on what should be done is based on pure guess work (including, or in particular, my own conclusions).

Forgive me if this sounds harsh. I don’t mean to discredit all the great advice and information you provide, I just have the feeling that I know nothing anymore,

Ingo

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I'm sure I added to the confusion:%):%) I'm just trying of creating an environment that would not be good for algae but also allow your plants to live. Once the algae is gone you could gradually up everthing for that incredible growth.

O.K. so you have no NH3. How is the algae living? Is it living off the po4,no3 your putting in? Is there a difference between the conditions for development of algae and then it's ability to survive? Your algae might be living off the nitrogenous waste before it becomes nh3 and before it's measurable. I think the purigen will take the feet out from under the algae and then by crowding it out with floating plants, reducing light, co2, etc you will beat it down.

Supposely the Purigen removes nitrogenous waste that releases nh3, no2, no3, so it's not directly removing these things, but it is removing the source.

Last edited by tetratech at 14-Oct-2005 11:52

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Was that a list ?

Am I the only one here who is losing track of what we once called the overall idea of EI?

Hope not. As I said the important thing to do is add the nutrients. It can be done in a way that's convenient for you. The 3 times a week is for ease of use. Daily in smaller doses is ok. The important thing is that the nutrients are there, even to slight excess.

Or did we even concede and identified that EI is not working on a newly established tank, at least not in my case?

I haven't. 10 ppm of PO4 is not EI. Your dosage of PO4 at the start was out of the normal range of PO4 dosing. How much of an impact this had I'm not sure. Add to this you may have introduced BGA from another tank. Problem with algae is it can get into the system pretty quick but it takes a lot longer to beat it back. Being a bacteria rather then an algae BGA is one of the most difficult to beat back. The brown algae and thread algae are pretty common in new set ups with or without dosing. Your tank looks good, you are by no means infested, we have to look hard to find algae. I'd be willing to bet that you would have had the same issues without the dosing, just a lot more of it.The dosing at start up put the advantage the plants way, look at the growth. You've had other planted tanks, you may have started up other planted tanks, think back , have you had this kind of growth before dosing EI ? Is growth better now or worse ? You decide. Decide based on plant growth not algae. If the plant growth is at optimum the algae will die back in time. You wouldn't be the first to see some pretty bad algae disappear almost overnight. Bear in mind that algae is very difficult to kill, the trick is to prevent new growth. Once you've stopped the new stuff coming through, the old will die off slowly or we physically remove it.

[quote}If my plants suck up the minimum of Ammonia that is produced by the few fish, why bother with Purigen?
I tend to agree. With so many plants and so few fish I don't think Ammonia is an issue NOW.

EI means over-fertilization, why would I reduce to create a close to starvation environment?

Only if you want to micro manage IF you are skeptical about the heavy nutrient dosing. Some are and test and add daily. This is closer to the PPS method but both are based on adding and ensuring nutrients are constantly available.
I am somewhat confused, I thought you were feeling skeptical about the whole method, but I sense from this post you are actually pretty much convinced it works.

What would be possibly an issue NOW if my Nitrates are 20ppm, Potassium 20ppm, Phosphates 2ppm, and micros so that the Iron seems to be ok?

CO2 ? That's the most important - is it up in the 30ppm range and staying there consistently ?
Are you seeing new algae coming through each day or is it just the old stuff lingering. If it's just the old stuff then you've already won.
If it's still new stuff coming through then go back to the Co2. You parameters are spot on. Your dosing is good. That rules out nutrients. The light is a given and we know you have enough.
What's left ? Only the Co2. Crank it up slowly and watch the fish. You can do this at a time when you are there for a though out the day to observe. Crank it up slowly, watch the fish, if they are ok , crank up a little more.And so on. If the fish show any sign of distress back it down to a notch to the last increase. You know have your optimum level of Co2, high but not harming the fish.
It nearly always comes back to Co2.

Didn’t we once identify that each change should be given time to take effect?

Yep, but I didn't think anyone was listening

If you are comfortable with it continue as you are going.

Recheck the Co2. Get it good. Watch the plants and fish. If you've got good pearling and the fish are ok, Co2 should be good. Eyeball this rather then pH levels, they can be off a bit.

Try the lighting burst in the middle of the day. But again make sure you're still getting the same pearling.

If you see any green spot algae on glass or plants recheck PO4 as it may be running low.

Try this for 2-3 weeks. Only thing that should be altered is Co2. Remove whatever algae you can during water changes.

It's Saturday. I need a beer or 3.:%)

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Bensaf,

I think LF took a well deserved night off or he's making a tossed salad. He needs a rest from us (probably more me than you - :%)

Anyway, during my little green water week, I reduced dosing to 1/4 tsp no3 1/16 tsp po4 twice/wkly and dropped the so4 completely. I haven't even dosed the micros becuase of all the wc and today I have some of the best pearling I ever had. But the one thing I didn't change was the co2. I keep it up.

One thing I don't get about LF's tank. If he's got no nh3 what is the algae living on? Is it living on the nitrogenous waste before it even becomes nh3? If not, than wouldn't it have to be the po4 no3? I've said this in the other thread the Purigen doesn't get rid of nh3 it get's rid of the source, which is the nitrogenous waste from everything.


Last edited by tetratech at 14-Oct-2005 21:59

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and today I have some of the best pearling I ever had.

Because you no longer have a green tint to the water more light is getting through. More light = more pearling. It's agood sign, but it also means more uptake. Keep an eye on it. You may have to go back up in dosing. Watch the pearling, make sure it doesn't slow down or stop.

If he's got no nh3 what is the algae living on?

No point wrecking your head trying to figure that one out. The amounts of nutrients they need are so minisicule it's pointless trying to starve them out. The various types have there own preferences, but they all like NH3.Some like BBA do well when there's a lot of carbonates and unstable co2 they don't really care about nutrient levels.
That's why it's so darn difficult to get rid of once it's in. You can only let the higher order plants take over and crowd them out. It's slow but it works. To be honest nobody really knows why, it just seems to be algae can't survive in an environment where there are a lot of plants in optimum condition.How can you starve out something that can survive in nutrient levels of parts per billion ? You can use RO or distilled water but then you can't grow anything.
Most everybody has some amount of algae, the best you can really hope for is a level so small that it's invisible.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

I think LF took a well deserved night off or he's making a tossed salad

Actually, I had a lot of work to do in the office and when I came home I decided to spend some time with the family as they usually see me only with my face glued to the glass of the tank and cursing . And then I got tired and fell asleep, at 8:15PM – I am an old man .

To sum it up, yes – I am trying to follow through on the EI method and all my attempts so far have been designed to adjust the rather global EI parameters to fit my specific tank (Tom Barr would be so proud of me]]). I should have been clearer about this.
Do I question that it works? – I sure do, so far none of us has ever set up a brand new tank and dosed like a madman .
Do I give up that quickly? – Not if I can avoid it. If your response to my last entry would have been that we concede then I might have said that we should look for a different approach.

About the dosing:
Changing to daily dosing (1/2 the bi-daily dosage, of course) raises one question. I thought I heard it was better to dose macros and micros on separate days as they might cause a chemical reaction (explode ) when used together. Is that wrong?

About the current growth in the tank:
I get the impression that my plants are actually slowing down now. I might be wrong as I might simply have adjusted my expectations to the facts. The one thing that seems to have changed in my setup is that it appears to me as if the reactor has less bubbles in it to dissolve than earlier in the process, even if the bubble rate is higher (at least 3bps – stable). I see that there is some water in the tubing to the reactor, is that normal? I unhooked the hose 2 days ago and tried to drain it as much as possible, but yesterday it was back. It is not much; maybe 1” of the hose has water (close to the lowest point, being pushed towards the reactor by the CO2 pressure). I was wondering if this water blocks the flow and CO2 escapes somehow at the spot where the hose is connected to the bubble counter. I will put a fastener around it, if that is possible. Another reason for a lack of bubbling might be that the small pump on the reactor is getting dirty. I will clean it today and keep you posted.

When I looked at the tank last night it seemed as if the algae in one area are clearing up a little (the area to the left of the right tank side; that is the one that had the least algae problems. But this might be wishful thinking .

Ingo

PS: I switched to the sun-burst lighting period (3 hours half way through the light cycle) yesterday. It is too early though to see if it will make a difference. Also, I don’t know if I can crank up the CO2 until I see the fish showing signs of distress (although I get the point). I am worried that if I try this my fry would be already dead. Hey, I got lots of algae, but I also got about 10 free Espei in there .

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The one thing that seems to have changed in my setup is that it appears to me as if the reactor has less bubbles in it to dissolve than earlier in the process, even if the bubble rate is higher (at least 3bps – stable). I see that there is some water in the tubing to the reactor, is that normal
When I look at my bubble counter attached to the regulator I can't really count the number of bubbles coming out. It's gotta be at least 5 bps, but there are times it's not consistent on the hagen ladder (yes still using). So logical would say something's escaping. My ladder isn't as efficient as your reactor obviously and I don't see any reaction from the fish. Also my co2 rate, which is tough to peg because of the colors on my ph kit. It's very hard to tell the difference between some of the colors.

Bensaf:
For the record, I believe in EI, but only for a tank with a mature biofilter and loads of plants. I also believe the startup is what caused the algae problems for LF and myself. Look if you fill a tank with just water, no gravel, no plants, no fish and put 1 wpg on, Are you going to get algae eventually - Yes. Probably from the tiny amounts of whats in the water coupled with the light, but I bet you won't be able to measure any NH3.

I don't believe at startup the plants were sucking up enough to combat algae and to remove the "niche" they live in. We could speculate forever the exist reason, but anything not used becomes waste eventually so we don't know exactly what the algae could use. All the additional light, etc just made it that much easier for the algae to gain a foothold.

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I took out the reactor and cleaned it (and the pump). There is not much that can be cleaned at the pump and it didn’t look too dirty either. I wiped off the film of algae that formed on the reactor’s inside and I think I see some algae in the way top area where the reactor inside is curved. Maybe there is a gap that allows the CO2 to escape upwards and out of the reactor without being transformed into tiny bubbles. I will keep an eye open for it.

As to the water in the CO2 line, I guess that is normal as there was more this morning while the unit was turned off. Right?

tetratech – “I believe in EI, but only for a tank with a mature biofilter and loads of plants” - I will stick with it for a while longer, here we have an option to evaluate its feasibility. If I cancel it now we will never be able to make a statement one way or the other. Let’s try to ride it out. Sorry in advance for all the algae ranting that is still to come .

Ingo

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Sorry in advance for all the algae ranting that is still to come .
With the wife, three kids and a herding dog your ranting is music to my ears

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I have a wife, 2 kids, and a crazy cat (25lbs).

But the kids count for 20 as they are 5 year old twins .

Back to fussing with the tank, I will post again tonight.

Ingo

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Ok, my head hurts, school was inspected this week, been up all hours working. have missed so much in this thread. phew. am i confused.

I just wanted to say hello. will have to read it all again to try and figure out what you guys are talking about!

oh and for the film

Bensaf - George Clooney
Tetratech - Russell Crowe
LittleFish - Liam Neeson.

and the plot hmmm maybe it should be a type of super algae brought back from the moon and you three have to stop it before takes over the world............

now I really need to go lay down

GFG

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Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey S. Firestone

GFG – you must be glad this week is over, hopefully next week you have time to get a headache from reading this thread .
Hey, my wife once had a crush on Liam Neeson (when he was younger), I am glad you picked him for me. Otherwise, she might fall in love with Bensaf or tetratech.

Tank updates:

Not much has happened today, it seems I am getting towards the end of the slime algae. It is still multiplying on various spots, in particular the moss, but by far not as much as it used to. The most common alga that is now in the tank are individual strands with a length of about 1 to 4 inches, I also have a few strands that are easily 8 inches long. They grow best on the moss, gravel, anubias, and rocks. I measured the phosphates and I would say that they are close to 2ppm, although the color didn’t match anything in particular . (oh, and ph of about 6.6 and KH of almost 5, the reactor works just fine, I guess it needed the inside cleaned)

I had to take out the Rotala Macrandra (the red plant on the right end of the tank) as it’s lower half leaves were rotting away. I assume it was not getting enough light as the Water Sprite behind it is growing tall and dense. I cleaned the Rotala and cut some of them shorter. Then I took out the Hornwort (a fast grower, but what an ugly plant ) that was placed between the rocks and put the Rotala in its place. The Hornwort was trashed, it started to rot in some places and small pieces of that area were floating in the tank. It must have had too much of the slime algae on it.

And I made a request to the fish society that they should reconsider the species to which the Harlequin Rasbora Espei belongs. I strongly believe that they belong to the species of Rabbits. I have at least 30 fry in there. If that continues then I will have a super large school way before tetratech.

Photos and more updates tomorrow after the water change.

Ingo

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Ingo, exactly what are you giving your Harlies? Mine aren't multiplying like anythingthat I know of Now the corries in the bottom have uh been busy again i've noticed, got some that are rather small

Anyways, we need pictures I'm glad the slimy gunk algae is disappearing, I know that must be a relief, unfortunately how much sanity have you lost with the algae?

So what else are you thinking of putting in the 125? Or are you going to let the ones in there go ahead and just take over the tank? That would be the easy way to do itof course you might want to start looking for an LFS that will be willing to buy some of them back from you

Can't wait to see pics after tomorrow's water change,
Heidi

"I've got a great ambition to die of exhaustion rather than boredom." Thomas Carlyle

Oh, I get to be George Clooney

Algae receding eh, interesting

The water in tubing is normal.

For daily dosing, macros in morning, micros in evening or vice versa.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Russell Crowe is fine by me GFG. Gladitor one of my favs all time.

We are all eagerly awaiting PWC(Post Water Change) pic.
I'm a little off today, drinking Cabo Tequila and Rum last nite. :%)

My Scapes

Uh, my back hurts

I just spent 4 hours bent over the tank and removed 25G of water (into buckets) with the smallest vacuum that I have. I did this so that I can reach most of the algae directly without risking of sucking all the fry out. The rest of the 50% water change was done with the Python. I had to do quite some cutting and fussing in the tank. The Water Sprite on the right got so tall and dense that all plants in front of it didn’t get enough light anymore. So I cut it shorter all over the tank and then replanted bits of cutting from the Pennywort and the Mayaca Fluviatilis in the right front section.


Heidi – I don’t know yet what other fish I will add, current front-runners are Black Neons, Rummies, and Glwo Lights. Later, maybe Rainbows, and Gouramies. I asked the LFS guy today if they take fish for store credit, but most likely not; they showed interest in a school of about 30 Rasbora Espei though.

Bensaf – Algae is receding, just like our hair line . At least that is the impression that I get. In particular the brown slime is slowing down. I now see on my sags and vals black bushel of hair growing. About ferts every day, I am somewhat hesitant to add them in the morning as the tank is in the basement and it is really dark down there at the time before I leave the house. I would have to turn on the light and disturb the fish in their “sleep”. Do you think they would mind?

We should hire GFG as our film director as she seems to have a hand in picking our actors.

Otherwise, against better knowledge, I went to the LFS and bought 3 younger Otos that came into the store on Thursday. They are being acclimated to the tank right now, let’s hope they make it.

Without further babbling, here are some pictures. First some detail shots:

Glosso starting to spread

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Pennywort Mountain in left 3rd of tank

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Rotala Macrandra at the end of Rock Valley

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Now, 4 pics of the tank development

Setup Day

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Week 1

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Week 2

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Week 3

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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LF,
From those great pics it really is hard to believe you having all those algae problems. So the area to the front right that was not algae-e, that's the area that was shaded by thw water sprite. Definitely sounds like too much light for not enough usage by plants at the early stages.

The Glosso is looking good, what's that stuff right behind it. I also wanted to do a glosso carpet, I guess I'll see how the hairgrass develops.

My Scapes

tetratech,

I think you are right as the algae issues are more severe in the front of the tank where only a few sags are located. But now it is nicely spread out on plant leave edges, rocks, and moss.

The stuff, as you called it, behind the glosso is actually hair grass (dwarf I guess, if such a thing exists) with the exception of the plant right in the middle and behind the glosso. That’s a free plant piece that was in the mix of other plants. I put it there so I can see what it might turn into. Maybe its nothing else but Hornwort , in that case I will rip it out.

About hard to tell that I have algae problems – that’s what 4 hours of cleaning can do. Let’s wait a few days and see if it gets messy again. And thin threads are not visible at the distance that is needed to capture the whole tank.

Ingo

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That glosso will look incredible if you can grow it right between those two main rocks. It will look a thin valley from behind spreading out wider to the front. Wow!

My Scapes

Finally,

Someone can spot a glimpse of my vision

Thanks tetratech,

I love you

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Great minds think alike!

My Scapes

Great minds think alike!

And fools seldom differ.....

I'd be willing to bet the algae is on the way out.

I said it many pages back it's normal for some algae to appear in the first 2-3 weeks. I also warned against letting either algae or test kits throw you off course. Keep focused on plants, don't fight algae. I also said at the start more plants. This was nothing to do with increasing uptake of No3 or PO4, rather about crowding out algae, more ammonia uptake and increased oxygen and more places for bacteria to colonise.Another week or so will see if I was right.

I can't subscribe to the theory that the EI dosing at start up was not working. For that to be correct it would mean that excess NO3 and PO4 in the water column causes algae. I know that not to be true from experience. The only way to prove it would be to set up a similar tank at the same time with no dosing and see how that fared against this one. I'm betting the no dose tank would have the same issues only more severe.

I'll ask the question again (nobody answered the first time) how does both your plant growth and health compare to previous tanks you have kept ? From the pics I'm thinking much much better.If the answer is yes it's better why is that ? Good Co2 and good nutrients , maybe ? That's what it's about right, growing plants, it's certainly not about testing and fretting over algae.

Look at the pic of week 3. Tells you all you need to know. Alage can't survive in there for long if you keep on top of the Co2 and nutrients. Now you just have to whip it into shape and build up an organised aquascape. Do that slowly. Don't rip up lots of plants to move or replace in one shot.

Congratulations, you now both know how to grow healthy strong plants Not so difficult is it? Nobody has a magic wand to make a good looking tank, it's just a few minutes a week dosing and keeping on top of the Co2.Keep focused on them and their needs and I guarantee you will have very very few issues in the future. Maybe, just maybe, I can get some peace now and get back to a lot less typing and a lot more drinking

BTW the fish won't mond the lights being on for the few minutes while you dose.

Last edited by bensaf at 16-Oct-2005 22:38

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

And fools seldom differ.....
Funeeeeee

Don't know for sure about po4 no3, but I am of the believe that all that light with minute traces of nh3 will cause algae. This condition will exist at startup with the plants not uptaking at a great rate. Without a mature biofilter and/or AC is opened that "niche" to the algae. I agree in a crowded mature tank dosing the EI way it appears that algae can't get a foothold. When you look at it that way I think Uncle Ben is right. But I gave an example 10 posts or so ago. If you startup a tank with 1 wpg and nothing in the water, no sub,floral,fauna will you still get algae? I believe you will eventually because whatever is in the water has enough traces to get the algae going. Many heavy hitters prescribe to using AC at startup because the biofilter isn't available to rid the tank of these minute traces. You will never measure this activity with a test kit.

My Scapes

Speculations, speculations, speculations

Anyway, Bensaf is for sure right when he said that we will never have proof because we have no test tank of equal setup but without fertilizer addition etc.

But I have no intention to give Bensaf a break so he can ruin his liver a little faster . What would we be without him? The 2 Stooges?

To that point, I have not defeated the algae problem yet. Clearly, the brown slime production machine is slowing down dramatically, but that has nothing to do with ferts or lights, it is based on the diminishing silica resources in the tank.

However, I still have enough algae to keep us talking for while. I see the green hairs, which, after the latest water change, don’t scare me that much anymore as they are easily coming of the plants when pulled. Unlike the latest addition to the family, black patchy hairs that are solidly attached to leaves. It doesn’t quite fit the description of BBA (Black Beard Algae) as that one is supposed to have strands no longer than a quarter of an inch and mine are for sure longer. BBA supposedly thrives on high phosphates and that would fit the description. Any ideas?

Ingo

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Oh dear is there no peace to be had ?

What color is it ? What plants ?BBA can vary quite a bit in appearance.

If it is BBA it's not phosphates. It's Co2. It could care less about No3 or PO4 levels , it thrives on unstable swinging Co2 levels.

I used to have a terrible time with it before I got Co2 going good. Co2 in the 30 ppm range, constant throughout the photo period, really does work. Since I got this bit right never have an issue with it. Even Anubias in bright light (usually the first to succumb) can resist it in high Co2 levels. Stability is the key, even a couple of days of uneven Co2 levels and the stuff will show up. SAE's will help keep it at bay too, but the Co2 is better.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Oh dear is there no peace to be had ? --- NO, NO, and NO

What color is it ? --- Black

What plants ? --- Sags and Vals, in particular; also on the Anubias Barteri

BBA can vary quite a bit in appearance --- This one here is up to maybe 1.5 inches long

it thrives on unstable swinging Co2 levels --- Still working out the kinks of the CO2 System, although I think I can call it most stable. Chuck Gadd is the one who blames Phosphates for BBA.

SAE's will help keep it at bay too, but the Co2 is better --- Agree, in particular because I cannot get my hands on a “True” SAE anyway.

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 17-Oct-2005 09:18

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Not much has happened during the day today, at least not tank-wise.

I had to take out more plants on the right hand side front section as the Water Sprite really must have taken all the light away from it. The bottom of the Narrow Leaf Ludwigia was rotting away. Too bad, but fortunately I still have some left in other spots in the tank.

I was finally able to capture some of my fry (in case you didn’t believe me ) on camera, but the quality is not too great. Both fry shown in the pictures below are about 3mm long and, at least when looking into the tank directly and not at a picture, I can begin so see a tiny orange spot on them.

Here is the first pic, fry is in the middle of it.

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Here is one taken with flash, again, sorry about the bad quality.

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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If it's black then it's definately BBA.The plants you listed would definately be candidates for BBA on their older leaves, it rarely settles on fast growing stems.

The Co2 will definately keep new stuff away, won't do much for the stuff that's already there though. The existing stuff can be got off the Anubias with a bleach treatment, but the vals and sags won't take this treatment well.

Get rid of whatever you can by trimming or bleaching, keep the Co2 constantly in the 30ppm range and you have it licked.

Chick's site is a bit outdated by the way. We now know that Co2 and carbonates are the factor for BBA rather then phosphates. If it were phosphates it would have shown up when you had 10ppm not now when you have 2 ppm.

Congrats on the fry (maybe you can borrow some of tetras green water to feed them ). I'd definately keep them rather then trade them. Nothing like a big big school of Rasboras.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Bensaf,

Tonight after work I will go and “cut” the older leaves of the vals and sags. Bleaching the Anubias seems to be a problem as they are currently developing a nice root system (they all are placed on the gravel and not on rocks) that burrows deep into the substrate and I am afraid I would greatly disturb the settling process. Also, most of them are surrounded tightly by other plants and their rooting system would be disturb as well.

If I don’t bleach these leaves, will I lose the battle against BBA?

“I'd definitely keep them”

Well, as I said a few pages back, Espei are actually rabbits. If I keep them all then I am very soon overstocked. By now I actually reached the point where I don’t chase adult Espei away anymore when I see them searching for “fry food”. There must be at least 30 in there, all over the place. Tetratech – Wanna have a large school of Espei? For real, they would look very good in a black tank.

Ingo

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LF,

Very tempting offer on the Espei. Right now I have:

7 otos
5 Black Neons
3 Beckford Pencils
3 Rummys (lost 2 in new tank)
2 BN (which I might move, destructive to some plants)
1 Cory (I'll probably take heat for that)
1 Bolivan Ram

I definitely want one very large school, so I probably don't even have that much flexibility anymore if I'm going to do that. One mistake I made on stocking is that the black neons, pencils and yes the otos all have similiar colors. Although I only have 3 pencils and the otos are always hiding. The other day the neons, pencils and otos were following each other around and it looked like one big school.





Last edited by tetratech at 18-Oct-2005 07:56

My Scapes

Interesting that your Otos are always hiding. Mine are usually in the front part of the tank as most of the bigger leaved plants are there. I think you don’t have too many options for them in the front so they will have to circle around your Star Grass and the Wisteria.

With regards to the Espei, you would have to wait a while until they are big enough. I guess in anyway that would be too late for you.

And sure will you take heat for having ONE Cory ]:|

Ingo

EDIT: Just turned Mega - In case the Master cares

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 18-Oct-2005 09:03

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

If I don’t bleach these leaves, will I lose the battle against BBA?

No not neccessarily. As I said the Co2 will stop new stuff from growing but your kinda stuck with the old stuff. You can just trim off the affected Anubias leaves. No harm, they'll grow new ones. A lot of people (and I'm one of them) can't bring themselves to trim Anubias. Broke my heart when I had to throw out a bucket of them when I re-did the tank


I forgot to mention earlier watch for the plants growing and shading others and themselves. You'll get a feel for what plants go where to avoid this. Ludwigia can be tricky to get cuttings growing. A relatively high proportion just don't take, the rooted section blackens and melts away. This may account for some of the problems. The MAcrandra definately can't handle any shading even from itself.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

A lot of people (and I'm one of them) can't bring themselves to trim Anubias.

I agree Bensaf...I don't know why that is but I sure can't. I'd just try to trim back the BBA on the leaves. I had a bout with this stuff before I restarted my tank (restarted with good CO2 levels) since then I've never seen it again. or any other algae for that matter, except for a little green spot here and there.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Thanks Bensaf,

If my only options are to choose between bleaching and trimming I will select to trim, although I tend to sympathize with the group that is too weak-hearted to do so.

About the Ludwigia and its tendency to have lower stems blackening – yeah, I saw that on my Repens in the 29G. I just hope that the group on the left (towards the middle) is strong enough to survive for a while longer until I am ready to actually aquascape the tank. The Narrow Leave is a very nice looking plant with a lovely different color than the other plants.

One more question for the advanced (or otherwise experienced) Aquascaper:

My Alternanthera reineckii "roseafolia" is almost reaching the top (is the plant that is half visible in the back of Rock Valley). How do I trim it? I would assume that I just cut it short and that I keep the bottom in and replant the top somewhere else, right?

Ingo

EDIT: Matty, thanks for your input, you always have something good to say.

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

How do I trim it? I would assume that I just cut it short and that I keep the bottom in and replant the top somewhere else, right?

You would want to cut just above a "node"(where the leaves come out of the stem). That way a new stem will generally branch out from there. Just make sure you cut enough off to leave some growing room, and a large enough "top" to plant somewhere else. Once everything settles in you can cut everything "just right" for that perfect picture - then it's back to business as usual.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

LF,

I smell a trade. Some espei for some half blue tuxedo guppies.

Guppy Highlight List

1. Multiple faster than espei :%)
2. Great for cycling (your 10 tanks by years-end)
3. Guppy fry will eat your algae

Here's a pic of the beauts




tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

Thanks again Matty, you really should post more to my thread

tetratech - yeah, I smell a trade too – a bad one that is . No way that I am getting guppies. I already have 2 tanks with platies and although I am not doing anything to help the fry (except having good hiding plants I guess) I have more and more of them.

I agree that they look lovely, but they are not called Million Fish for nothing . But I guess the same name could apply to my Espei as well.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hi,

Little_fish

Are you able to produce a list of what youve bought for your tank to look like that for me please?

Im planning to go through all of this for myself so that would help me out a great deal.

LF,

Just testing ya, I fiqured you will see through my highlight list I bet I can get Bensaf to go for it.

Last edited by tetratech at 18-Oct-2005 11:41

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Cols,

I am not quite sure if I understand what you mean?

If it is the tank hardware then look at my profile as all items are listed (same for plants and fish).
If not, feel free to explain, I am more than willing to help you out.


tetratech,



I hope I didn’t fail the test

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Can't figure out how to mark the thread to watch it. Sorry for the pointless post - just "tagging along" so I don't lose the thread in the future.

Enjoyed reading from the start of this!

hope I didn’t fail the test

you passed 'MEGA FISH'

My Scapes

I bet I can get Bensaf to go for it.

Mama bensaf didn't raise no fools. I may be Irish but I ain't thick Not falling for that old Guppy scam. Now that proposition you had about selling me the Brooklyn Bridge that I'm interested in. I'll contact you later about it, I'm a bit busy right now. Got to send an e-mail with my bank account details to this nice Nigerian lawyer who contacted me about a good proposition, I'll tell you later it's a bit hush hush.

Hmph, these young 'uns think they pull the wool over my eyes. Guppies, did ye ever hear the like ..............

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

sorry for not being clear, i meant really a list of all the things youve used like chemicals added and test kits etc.

everything youve needed to get from start to present, if you could do that it would be great.

Funny Funny Bensaf

I see that you haven't lost your sense of humor now that you are one year older.

[hr width='90%']

[font color="#C00000"]H[/font][font color="#000080"]A[/font][font color="#008000"]P[/font][font color="#BF791F"]P[/font][font color="#800080"]Y[/font] [font color="#C00000"]B[/font][font color="#000080"]I[/font][font color="#008000"]R[/font][font color="#BF791F"]T[/font][font color="#800080"]H[/font][font color="#C00000"]D[/font][font color="#000080"]A[/font][font color="#008000"]Y[/font]



[hr width='90%']

I hope you are having fun at the pub.

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 19-Oct-2005 03:41

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

cols,

I got it, so let’s see. Besides the hardware and plants listed in my profile:

- Gravel (about 200 lbs)
- Laterite (3 x 55 ounces bags)
- Rocks (about 80 lbs)
- Thread to tie moss to rocks
- Prime Water Conditioner
- Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Liquid Test Kits (Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, ph, Phosphates, KH, GH)
- Another Test Kit for Iron
- Macro Fertilizer Powder (KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4) and Micro Fertilizer Mix (Plantex + Iron) from Greg Watson
- Baking Soda to raise the KH
- Seachem Equilibrium for micro fertilization elements and to raise the GH
- Measuring spoons from 1 tsp down to 1/32 tsp
- Container to mix fertilizers etc. with tank water
- A small fish net
- Fish Foods (depending on the fish)
- Maracyn to treat Blue Green Algae
- Tweezers for planting
- Scissors for pruning
- Algae pads for glass tanks
- A depleted gift card (hard plastic) to scrape spot algae of the glass
- Various rolls of kitchen paper (cleaning test tubes etc.)
- 3 towels for tank only purposes
- 3 5G buckets for tank only purposes
- 2.5G bucket for tank only purposes
- A Python for water change
- A smaller vacuum for detailed cleaning (sucking)

That should cover it

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thats great thanks.

Ive got most of the actual equipment as such, its more the treatments and test kits etc that i will need to get.

Ive still got to figure out what most of them are used for!

cols,

Glad I could help.

One warning though: If you ready through the discussions in this thread and in [link=tetratechs’ log]http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Planted%20Aquaria/64496.html?200510181628" style="COLOR: #ff6633[/link] then you will see that the usefulness of test kits is heavily debated. One thing I would recommend is not to rely on them but more to support observations made otherwise (usually visuals of tank, plants, and fish).

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

- Gravel (about 200 lbs)
- Laterite (3 x 55 ounces bags)
- Rocks (about 80 lbs)
- Thread to tie moss to rocks
- Prime Water Conditioner
- Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Liquid Test Kits (Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, ph, Phosphates, KH, GH)
- Another Test Kit for Iron
- Macro Fertilizer Powder (KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4) and Micro Fertilizer Mix (Plantex + Iron) from Greg Watson
- Baking Soda to raise the KH
- Seachem Equilibrium for micro fertilization elements and to raise the GH
- Measuring spoons from 1 tsp down to 1/32 tsp
- Container to mix fertilizers etc. with tank water
- A small fish net
- Fish Foods (depending on the fish)
- Maracyn to treat Blue Green Algae
- Tweezers for planting
- Scissors for pruning
- Algae pads for glass tanks
- A depleted gift card (hard plastic) to scrape spot algae of the glass
- Various rolls of kitchen paper (cleaning test tubes etc.)
- 3 towels for tank only purposes
- 3 5G buckets for tank only purposes
- 2.5G bucket for tank only purposes
- A Python for water change
- A smaller vacuum for detailed cleaning (sucking)


Now that's a list, but you forgot:

- EKG
- Aspirin
- Beer

My Scapes

I hope I don’t need to add a divorce layer as well

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks again Matty, you really should post more to my thread

LF- I'm just trying to keep up...it's tiring


Bensaf - Guess I missed the b-day bash.....hope it was a good one!

Last edited by mattyboombatty at 19-Oct-2005 09:52

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Ive always been more of a 'if the fish are healthy and bright then the water must be fine' than one to test with kits.

But saying that, i really dont know much about the chemicals needed and how they effect the water, reading up on those is most certainly needed though.

its just a matter of time to build up the things ineed and the knowledge i need and if i create anything close to the two tanks with logs(not bogwood.....) on here, i will be a very happy guy indeed.

I hope I don’t need to add a divorce layer as well



Make sure you have it in writing that you keep the fish.


cols:
Could you change either your font or background color. I'm an old man and your hurting my eyes.

My Scapes

Now, if I only could figure out how to spell Lawyer

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Groan......hangover alert :%)

Thanks for the birthday wishes.

Good grief Ingo, you forgot to put the kitchen sink on that list, you're taking German efficiency to new heights.

Vorsprung durch technik !

Cols my man please, as tetra said, do something about that font and background, it does real nasty things to a hungover head

I'm going off to get more Alka Seltzer

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Jeez I leave you boys alone for just a couple of days and look what happensif anyone gets to get rid of guppies to Ingo that would be me, yes me I have already caught them, bagged them, and mailed them...Ingo you should have a package at the Post Office tomorrow, marked urgent live plants, make sure you pick it upI'm not responsible for any extras that may arrive if you don't get it soon

Now with that said, Ingo how in the heck am I supposed to beat you to wishing Bensaf a happy birthday? you already beat me to it, I was gonna do it this morning before going to bed, but thought no i'll wait and didn't want to spend too much time here at school, so now i've missed itunless i do it bigger







guess that will do[/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font]

"I've got a great ambition to die of exhaustion rather than boredom." Thomas Carlyle

Heidi,

I hope Bensaf doesn’t see your birthday wishes until his head is not hammering anymore, otherwise it just might explode . And no guppies please, my Platies in the other tanks and the Espei in this one are doing enough damage.

To the tank:

I cut out most of the BBA affected leaves, including 2 on the Anubias . Interestingly most of them are rather close to the CO2 Reactor. Didn’t Bensaf say that it is a lack of CO2 that causes this alga to thrive? I would have expected that it grows in areas that would be far away from the CO2 source, but not in the current right next to the reactor.

Having seen the latest pictures in tetratechs log makes it very hard for me not to meddle with my tank right now (competition ). But seriously, I wonder if it soon will be time to remove some of the Water Sprite and start to work on the more permanent scape that I envision. The last thing I need though would be a reset to the conditions as they were 2 weeks ago. I currently detect almost no new algae growth at all. Be patient, Ingo!

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 20-Oct-2005 10:42

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

What if any style are you gonig to go for with the tank? How do you intend it to look in a couple of months?

I know there are a few different styles of aquascaping i was just wondering which you would go for or if you are just going to go for a tank which suits your tastes.

cols,

I will definitely try to create a style that suits my taste, whatever that may be .

Overall, I think:

I would like to have very tall plants only in the left and right back corners (partially to hide the
hardware).
I would like to expand the area of shorter grass like areas (with Narrow Leave Sags, Dwarf Sags, and Pygmy Chain Swords) to reach the middle area of the tank.
I would like the rock formation that is 2/3 to the right to be the center of attention.
I would like to have a dense Glosso carpet in front of “Rock Valley”.

So, as you can see, there are a lot of things that “I would like” to do, but I guess that this vision is easier thought of than actually created. I guess time will tell what shape this aquascape is taking.

Thanks,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

from what picture that creates in my own mind that sounds great, i like the idea of a glosso carpet somethig one day i would like to try and re-create.

one more question (sorry if i post too many)

If you were to start all over again, would there be anything you would chose to do differently?

cols,

There can’t be too many questions as it shows that people have interest in this thread .

I mentioned somewhere between page 4 and 9 that there is one thing that I would do different. It is the selection of plants that I got from the get-go. I would use almost only weeds (aka Water Sprite) to increase the uptake of nutrients early on. Only the front part of the tank would have been pretty much the same as it is now, with small sags and glosso etc.

One advantage of having my broad assortment of plants is that I can look at them in person, observe how they grow, and make my decisions of which one should go where (and if at all) once I re-arrange the design.

For example, I can already tell that the thinning out of Pygmy Chain Swords is going to be easier than the Dwarf Sags. The latter develop runners under ground (at least in my tank) that create new plants that penetrate the surface somewhere else. If I would go to remove these new plants I would have to be careful not to disturb the substrate too much when trying to separate the runner. The Chain Sword, on the other hand, creates runners on top of the gravel (at least in my 29G as I don’t have runners in this tank yet) and these are easily found and separated.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Having seen the latest pictures in tetratechs log makes it very hard for me not to meddle with my tank right now, competition

The only competition is you and me against the little green guys (algae). And of course one day outdoing Bensaf

My Scapes

Tonight I would like to create a 2-fold entry.

First I will talk a little more about my Espei, because I love them so much .

The fry is really amazing and manifold; I see little ones varying in size from 1 to about 3 inches. The larger ones show (at least when not viewed in pictures) already the orange coloring and a hint of the black triangle. They stay out in the open even when the adults are swimming by, but in general are still close to some cover, just in case .

Here is a shot that circles 2 fry, it gives you an idea of how large they are (by comparison to their surrounding).

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And here is the potential mother of them

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The second part of my entry is called “Snail Patrol”

I would appreciate if you could provide me with info on these guys, also let me know if I identified them correctly. I have at least 3 different kinds of snails, one of which is the Trumpet Snail. I have no picture of this one but it is about 1 inch max in length and has a twisted shell to its side.

For the other two, here are pictures:

Here is a picture of another snail, the Ramshorn:

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:


Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 20-Oct-2005 19:27[/font]

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Another Ramshorn:

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And here is the Common Pond Snail:

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Didn’t Bensaf say that it is a lack of CO2 that causes this alga to thrive?

Not quite. I said inconsistent or unstable Co2 production would cause it to thrive.

Keeping the Co2 consistently in the 30ppm range throughout the photo period will beat it.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Got it Bensaf

The problem is that my CO2 system is still instable. Rarely does the bubble rate stay the same than on the previous day. It always goes down to maybe 2 bps or less, even if I re-adjust it to almost constant flow. ]:|]:|]:|

Anyway, anyone have any info on my snails that he/she thinks would be worthwhile to share?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The problem is that my CO2 system is still instable. Rarely does the bubble rate stay the same than on the previous day. It always goes down to maybe 2 bps or less, even if I re-adjust it to almost constant flow
That shouldn't be happening. Have you called aquariumplants to see if they could help you out. Maybe they know something we don't. Mine does not do that and I keep it at about 5 or 6bps per second, but then again, my diffusion rate isn't as good as yours. I would definitely call AP.com and see what they say.

As far as the snails. As you saw from my 12g pic, I have 2 ramshorns in th tank. I don't think I'm going to be putting them in the 72 because the stargrass leaves are so fragile and because you always have a black leave here or there I think it might be too tempting to the snails.



Last edited by tetratech at 21-Oct-2005 07:10

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tetratech,

What is the pressure on your low meter gage?

Mine is at about 2.

For those who don't know, tetratech and I have the same regulator.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

may sound stupid but what does the regulator actually do?

The low pressure gauge is at 20.

My Scapes

cols – as the name implies, it regulates something

Seriously, it regulates how much pressure from the CO2 bottle is permitted to reach a needle valve, which then in turn is used to adjust the bubbles per second (bps) that you would like to inject into the tank (via Reactor). I would suggest you peruse the internet with search terms like “CO2 Regulator Aquarium”, “CO2 System Aquarium”, “Solenoid Aquarium”, and “Reactor Aquarium”. That should give you a load of info on the whole CO2 hardware spiel.

tetratech – Wow, 20, I guess I would have to crank mine up quite a bit. Isn’t 20 the max of the scale?

With regards to your ramshorn info, there are different kinds with different sizes, right?
Also, could you (or anyone) positively identify the above pictured pond snail?

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 21-Oct-2005 09:26

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I'm talking 20 on the inside shaded scale.

Not sure of the snail breed. How 'bout hitchhiker or trojan'

Last edited by tetratech at 21-Oct-2005 09:32

My Scapes