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So even if does 4:1 powder doesn't equate to 4:1 ppm.

Glad it's an Estimate Index.
When I check the fertiliator (assuming it's correct) I would have 5.9ppm to 1.8ppm of N to P, a 3.3:1 ratio if I dosed the same way. I forget it's late. What is your source of N and what is your nephew's?



My Scapes

Should have checked my calculator before I said anything shouldn't I ?

Strangley Chuck's calculator differs it gives a result of 7.26ppm of NO3 and 1.77 PO4. Pretty close to a 4:1 ratio

Hmmm.... I wouldn't worry about the P, but that number for N is a bit low , and if the Fertilator is correct I'd consider that a very low dose

I'd definately be looking at upping my NO3 dosing. This nothing to do with ratios , it's just not enough NO3 going in IMO.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

tetratech and bensaf,

Glad you bring up the calculation again, as I haven't used any calculator in a while.

I would assume that at best I have 115G of water, if not down to 100G. With the 115G I get around 8ppm of N from 1tsp of KNO3. True, this may be a little too low, but what about all the N-forms that are produced by over 100 fish?

P would be at 115G around 2ppm at 1/4tsp, that may be too high, so maybe I should go down to 1/8tsp. Inparticular because my tab has P as well (supposedly, when measured a way while back, 2ppm).

Any thoughts?

Wings - thanks for the suggestion, I will see more when the plants have settled yet again

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Wow that is something I haven't thought of. Less water to treat because of all the junk in the tank.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Wings,

Yeah, I think when you have such a big tank that has an overall volume of 125G then you see some major differences in net volume. What I don't know is if these deductions (like over 200lbs of gravel, various rocks, and the wood) have been considered when the calculator formulas have been put in place.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

You have to start displacing a fair amount of water with all the gravel, wood and rocks. Then as your plant mass grows that has to have some effect too. Maybe not as much as the rocks and such. Food for thought though.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

but what about all the N-forms that are produced by over 100 fish?

Forget about it. You can't measure it so don't think about it.

The fish waste will be in the form of NH4. Plants will consume this before they consume NO3, it's easier to access the nitrogen in NH4. So if the NO3 is being consumed it means the NH4 is also being consumed.Beforehand.

NO3 won't cause algae. The tiniest smidgen of NH4 will.This is why the idea of adding more fish to increase NO3 rather then dosing doesn't work. The fish first produce NH4, dangerous, KNO3 is inorganic and safe.

Now , knowing you guys the way I do I am sure you will try to make a case that your current problems are due to fish load. Knock yourselves out.

I believe your problem is low NO3. Add more and see the results.A bit more inorganic NO3 won't hurt anything. Tetra will testify as to what happened when he increased doses. I believe it was all good. /:'

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

What I don't know is if these deductions (like over 200lbs of gravel, various rocks, and the wood) have been considered when the calculator formulas have been put in place.

Didn't need to. You do that yourself. You can enter any volume of water you like. It's up to you to calculate how much water in your tank. Just because you have a 40gal tank doesn't mean you have to key in 40gals. You can key 30,35,55 etc.

But again, you don't have to be that precise. ESTIMATIVE Index.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

I know... its all a big guess!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Glad it's an Estimate Index.

But again, you don't have to be that precise. ESTIMATIVE Index

EXACTLY, well not really. That is the key ESTIMATE. Don't worry about hardscape and exact gallon content.
To excess

The tiniest smidgen of NH4 will.This is why the idea of adding more fish to increase NO3 rather then dosing doesn't work. The fish first produce NH4, dangerous, KNO3 is inorganic and safe.

But there is a direct relationship between fish load and algae, with light and mass being the controling factors.



My Scapes

Ok Ok Bensaf,

I will switch to 1.25tsp of KNO3 and 1/8tsp of Potassium Phosphate, every other day . Happy now

Anyway, I will bring up tetratechs point (and mine) some more.

Fish load and NO3 fertilization: We all agree that plants prefer ammonia etc. over KNO3. Ammonia is only present in a tank with fish (or if someone adds fish food or ammonia for some reason). I assume (proof me otherwise) that ammonia is the same nutrient that the plant need than the one it gets from NO3. If you have no fish then all of this nutrient has to come from NO3. If fish are present then ammonia will be taken up first and only then the NO3 will be consumed. If you have a lot of fish then you may reach a point where only very little of the NO3 will be taken up because soooo much ammonia is available. Ergo, my assumption that I need less KNO3 than calculators tell you.

Am I wrong?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Got bored so I took some more pictures:

Here are two Crypt Wendtii surrounded by Pearl Grass. They just don't seem to grow that well in my tank(s):

Attached Image:

Crypt Wendtii

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The Alternanthera starts to show itself, now that it finally gets some light:

Attached Image:

Alternanthera

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The Boss of the Neons:

Attached Image:

Male Dwarf Neon Rainbow

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And one of my "Millions Fish"

Attached Image:

Espei

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,
I think there is always some waste/nh4 in the tank even without any fish. Decaying plant leaves, stems, uneating food will eventually get broken down into waste. And certainly the more plants the more likely the plants will get at the nh4 before the algae has a chance, but with less mass and good light the algae have a fertile environment to take hold.

Crypt Wendti:
Why do you think this plant doesn't grow well?
Nice pics, I really do like the rainbows. I am tempted to put a few in my tank. Do you know if they would eat my shrimp?

My Scapes

Ergo, my assumption that I need less KNO3 than calculators tell you.

We are actually stepping back about 53 pages now.

All true about the NH4. But as I said you can't quantify it. So how much do you reduce NO3 doses to account for it

All this time and almost 2000 posts later you're still frightened of the nutrients.

Why even bother to reduce the No3 dosing to allow for fish waste? No3 is an inorganic source of N it won't cause algae. So instead of trying to do calculations and allowances for an unknown just add the No3. A little excess won't hurt, a shortage will kick your butt

At this stage of the tanks life you have a lot of plants and a large bacteria colony, NH4 will disappear almost as fast as it's produced.

Keep up with the NO3 dosing, give it 2 -3 weeks and tell us what you see.

For the crypt I always find they do better in planted in groups of 3 or so. They look a bit sad on their own. In groups they seem to go into competition mode and try to outgrow one another.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

I have 9 rainbows in my 40G and they don't touch my glass shrimp. You have some other much cooler types that I don't have a clue about though.

Edit:

Crypts. I have two in my tank and they are growing really well. I just moved one though because I got a new anubias so I don't know what its going to do. Being the plant guy at work I have had to crpts flower. Don't know what I am doing right but its cool stuff.

Oh you guys will love this... My boss today told a customer that the plants I have been feeding at work don't need any extra nutrients other than what fish are giving them...because its a big tank.... Some days....

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

For the crypt I always find they do better in planted in groups of 3 or so. They look a bit sad on their own. In groups they seem to go into competition mode and try to outgrow one another.

ITA with this. All my "bushy" crypts started out as a tight bunch of at least 5 individual plants. In the tank where I space out the individual (or 2-3) plants, they don't get as bushy, but spreads out runners to other parts of the tank.

BTW LF, are my eyes bad or is there a little bit of green/hair algae on the leaves of your crypts?

-P

tetratech -

"Crypt Wendti: Why do you think this plant doesn't grow well?" I have them in the tank since the beginning. When I added them they had about the same number of leaves. Yeah, new ones came, but old ones always melted away. In none of my tanks do Crypt Wendtii have more than 5 leaves each.
And I think that the Rainbows will leave the shrimp alone.

Bensaf -

Deal, I will keep up this dosing and see what happens. To be continued ...
On my next re-arrangement I will try to group the Wendtiis.

Wings -

Thanks for the info. Are your crypts grouped?

Paulus -

Thanks to you for the cypt info as well, gives me already two people with similar experiences.
And yeah, this is thread algae . That is what the recent discussion on NO3 is all about. Your eyes are just fine .

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Paulus,
wow good eye! I had to go back and look for it.

LF,

Mine were not grouped. They were probably 5 inches apart. Now they are even farther apart. The once at work are not growing like mine but they are pushing flowers. I would try adding in some root tabs. They might want more nutrients. Remember our cool substraits will not last for ever.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

We are actually stepping back about 53 pages now

Just wanted to second that emotion. Maybe it's the natural cycle of the log. Another 50 pages from now we'll wondering whether KNO3 has been causing that hair algae again

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Back in the saddle!

Ingo - Out of curiosity, have you tested the nitrate level in your tank recently? I'm just wondering approximately how much nitrate you have with all those fish in there.

-P

Thanks Wings for the update on your Crypts

Paulus - No, I haven't tested anything in at least a month, if not longer.

I used to test quite a bit in the past when I used 1.25tsp of KNO3 every other day (for a while already, not when I started) and my kit (faulty or not) read way over 20ppm, even with less fish. It took over a week of no ferts and 50% water change to get the value around or below 20ppm. Even if the kit was not accurate (tetratech strongly belives - and tested for it - that the kits show way too high of a value), I could see the tendencies and how much is consumed over time. This was the reason I switched over to daily fertilization and reduced dosage (0.5tsp per day).

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Fair enough. You know what I think you need? Some SAE's. They should take care of your occasional hair algae problem, provided you get a group (at least 3 for your size tank) of very young/small juveniles. I know it doesn't solve the root of the problem, but sometimes you can go nuts (or round in circles, in your case ) trying to figure out every minute detail when we know there are a lot of variables (fish stock, amount of waste, plant mass, etc.) at any given time that could contribute to the problem. Just keep dosing the macros.

I know SAE's can get fat and lazy when they get big (esp. when they're alone), but since you have a lot of voracious fish in that tank (espei, rainbows) the SAE's should be outcompeted for food and grow slowly.

Just my 2c.
Cheers,
-Paulus

-P

My SAE hasn't got fat and lazy yet, he's a very active member in the tank, although he doesn't eat as much algae as he used to, he can be seen nibbling when he's hungry. I tend to underfeed, then sometimes I offer algae flakes before offering the regular flakes. This tends to get him thinking right again, and it seems to be good for the other fish as well.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

It was mentioned a little above this entry that my algae and nutrient issues have been discussed 53 pages back. Well, SAE have been discussed maybe 15 pages back and overall there seem to have been more disadvantages than advantages. I initially thought I would like to have them, but couldn't find any in the LFSs, then I decided not to get them and a week later the LFS had a whole tank full.

So for the time being, no SAE for my tank, but thanks anyway for thinking about it as an option .

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Gang,

I added a plant ID thread in this forum, if you haven't done so already, could you be so kind and try to help me with the ID by Clicking Here.

Thanks in advance,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well,

It is 3 days since my last entry and not much has happened that would be worth mentioning, except:

I have been following the new fert routine to the dot, meaning every other day 1.25tsp of KNO3 and 1/8tsp Potassium Phosphate, and the days between 40ml of TMG. In addition, after the water change I added 50ml of Excel and then every following day 20ml. I was curious if this would help the thread/staghorn algae that seemed to be starting to become an issue.

Did it help? No - this kind of algae is still there, spreading even further. Unfortunately, I am now also getting BBA on a few plants, like the leaves of the Cyperus Helferi and Crypt Retrospiralis. Also, the Anubias Nana and Barteri have some odd black markings on them that I cannot identify. It looks like someone had blown dirt over the plants and some of it adhered to the leaves. I will try to take a picture of it a little later in the day.

Also, I will measure some parameters, I for one thing bet you that I will get very high readings of Nitrate and Phosphate. This are the times when my tank makes me angry as I seem to be incapable of figuring out the right levels of ferts. Or maybe it isn't the tank that makes me angry, maybe (most likely) it is myself.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Also, the Anubias Nana and Barteri have some odd black markings on them that I cannot identify. It looks like someone had blown dirt over the plants and some of it adhered to the leaves.

Ingo, do you remember me mentioning the "black algae" on the leaves of some of my plants in my thread (3rd post)? I'm pretty sure it's the same one you're seeing in your anubias. Still don't know what really caused it, but it hasn't come back since I removed the stems that had it.

-P

Paulus,

It seems to be different as you say your leaves turned black beginning at the edges. My edges are fine, there are little specles all over the leaf surface.

I used to have the algae that started on the edges and that was for sure BBA. And it reacted very well to the Excel treatment.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Nope, the one I was referring to looked more like black dusting over the leaf surface, particularly in the middle area (not edges). It was most ounced on the hygro polysperma & stricta's leaves. I can't rub the black off with my fingers, they seem to be fused to the leaves.

-P

Ok,

here is a picture that shows what I mean (Paulus, just like yours? ). It seems to be not confined to any particular part of the tank, and exists on probably 40% of all my Anubias leaves. Grrrrrr

Attached Image:

Spot Stuff

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Gang,

I just did my water change, but not before measuring Nitrates and Phosphates. To my surprise, the Nitrates seem to be within the level, maybe a little over 20ppm (maybe even 30) but not what I expected. Phosphates, on the other hand, are where I expected them, 5ppm. Way too much, just like the last time when I dosed them rather frequently (then I caught it only when it was already 10ppm). I have faith in my phosphate test kit, believe it or not, as I performed extensive dosing tests to the tank to see how the kit will change colors. I have a tab of 2ppm, which should be the maximum given 20ppm of Nitrate. I will cut back on phosphate dosing, I started already by not adding any today, just the 1.25tsp of KNO3 (plus all the other stuff, baking soda, Equilibrium).

The Retrospiralis hasn't taken too kindly on the separation into smaller plants when I did the major overhaul a few weeks back. In good crypt fashion, half the leaves have been or are melting. Similar, the narrow leaf sags have some melting going on, they are also not too wild about the replanting.

An interesting fact: I finished 1 pound (US Pound) of KNO3 today. Just for the fun of it, this means:

- The tank is up and running for 154 days
- I added about 2.9432g per day (1 pound = 453.28g)
- This means I added about 0.54tsp per day
- And it means I added 3.81 ppm per day

I also removed the rock on the right and replaced it by planting this area with clippings of my Narrow Leaf Ludwigia from the 20G (needed trimming anyway). I figured if I don't like it I can take it out again, but more plant mass is probably good right now.

Pictures will follow tomorrow,

Any input is appreciated,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Ingo, yup I've seen those spots before on my anubias' and radican sword's leaves. The ones on my hygros are more like black dusting, not as distict spots. Could be the same thing though, just shows up different on different leaves. Oh well, I guess we'll just have to wait until bensaf identifies it.

-P

Ingo,
In regards to the anubias pic. Isn't that a form of beard/brush algae.

Interesting facts about no3 consumation. Did you buy the no3 from gregwatson. If your not placing a full order you could use the Greenlight Stump Remover available at Lowes. It's pure potassium nitrate.

Looking forward to seeing your pics, manana

My Scapes

Ingo, check out this thread I think you'll enjoy it.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showthread.php?p=94640#post94640


My Scapes

Looks like brand new BBA.

Check and re-check Co2.

I've had similar stuff, it just stayed that way never got furry like older BBA. I trimmed it off.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Thanks all for your input on the Anubias spots. I bet you it is Phosphate related. 5ppm is just too much. My CO2 is turned up higher than ever before, too fast to count bubbles and almost a constant flow of air (well, not air but CO2, you know what I mean).

Anyway, I went to the basement this morning to get some ferts for the 29G and saw on light beam fall into the tank through the small window behind it. I grabbed the camera and took some pictures, most of course were pretty bad, holding the camera steady is not that easy in almost no light. Anyway, I thought I share the best 3 pictures.

Here is the beam falling into the tank:

Attached Image:

Let there be light

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And here is another one. A real close-up of the light hitting just the top of a Pearl Grass.

The colors are broken down by the tank glass I guess, but I liked it.

Attached Image:

Pearl in the light

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And lastly, the top of the Star Grass got an extra load of light.

Yeah, I know it is time to trim it as it begins to float along the surface, so maybe next weekend I am going to do that.

Attached Image:

Stars in the light

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Interesting pics, but is the reason your showing this because their nice to look at or are you feeling it is related to your algae issue?

I forget did you start getting the algae before you rescaped with the wood. I think you were, but it got worse after the rescape.

We are living by the same code as far as ferting (I like that word) , the only real difference is lighting and I guess stocking levels. Again I don't think tweaking ferts here and there is going to change anything. Remember it's an estimative index.

My 2 cents if you want it is:

1.Do semi-weekly water changes. With the python it's really not that big of a deal.
2.Pack as much biomaterial you can into your Eheim. Use purigen in the filter as well.
3.Add floating plants
4.Feed less (I'm not saying your overfeeding, but just feed less)
5.I'm sure you doing this, but make sure you do the tetra dance in full attire at least twice a week. You could do it during the water changes to save time.

My Scapes

Weekly Tank Update - Week 22

I will incorporate tetratech's last entry here in this weeks update as it relates directly to the issues at hand, namely algae.

Well, first of all - no, the sun beam pictures were posted purely for their artistic value, even if I am not that much of an artist . I don't think that the 1 minute when the light hits the tank (and it is just a reflection of light from the neighbor's house, not even direct light) has anything to do with algae.

And tetratech - I don't think we are in the same boat with ferting. Every time when I dose Phosphates I have problems like this one. It might be a coincidence because I always tend to dose more by the broad rules after major changes, but I strongly believe that 5ppm of Phosphates does not mean that I "micro manage my macros" - this is 250% of what the Phosphate should be. My tab content is very different than yours and yes, my fish are creating phosphates as well. No more phosphate adding for the next 2 weeks .

Overall, I added two crypts to the tank that are still small, but seem to start to develop new roots - a good sign. Certain plants, in particular the Star Grass, are growing like mad, while others develop black spots (BBA, as Bensaf points out) or are even reduced in number (Duckweed - but don't tell me I am low on KNO3). I added clippings of Narrow Leaf Ludwigia from the 20G to the right hand side to increase the bioload.

EDIT: Feeding a little less sounds good, and yeah - I will try the dance more often, if it helps .

No more talk, more pictures . Here is a nice shot of the Alternanthera, for the first time ever this plant is really kicking into gear.

Attached Image:

Alternanthera reineckii

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Here is a picture showing the cuttings of the Narrow Leaf Ludwigia. As you can see, they are very small but the plant is a fast grower, or at least used to be when it was in the tank originally. If all goes well then I will have to trim it the first time in about three weeks.

Attached Image:

Narrow Leaf Ludwigia

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Now, for the full tank shots I don't want to bother you with too many pictures of the same, with just minor growth differences. In anyway, a fair comparison can only be made within the current design, and that is only 4 weeks old.

Here is the tank immediately after the dust had settled from the major overhaul:

Attached Image:

Week 19

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And here is the tank today. All looks good from the distance, but up close the algae is really kicking into full gear.

The Star Grass really needs a trimming soon, probably next weekend, if not sooner.

Oh, BTW, I was in the city today and went to a fish store there. Loads and loads of BBA, huge, in almost all of their tanks, plus many fish with fin rot and what not, plus too many dead ones. All plants in bad shape (they even had 2 bushels of Pearl Grass). But the Dwarf Rainbows were half the price then they are here, but I am proud of myself, I resisted .

Attached Image:

Week 22

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

I really like what your tank is turning into. Starting to look a little jungle like again though. Not that thats all bad because we can see your 2x4's sticking out of it.

Edit: On the scape of things... I really think you should work high in the middle to low on the outsides. I am not a big fan of the tall stuff in the back corners. Maybe put that in the middle behind or on the edge of the star grass.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

And tetratech - I don't think we are in the same boat with ferting. Every time when I dose Phosphates I have problems like this one. It might be a coincidence because I always tend to dose more by the broad rules after major changes, but I strongly believe that 5ppm of Phosphates does not mean that I "micro manage my macros"

What I meant was that we are both following the same basic EI dosing principle and the differences in the two tanks are light and maybe fish load. It's strange because I once had unexplained high po4 levels in my tank until I finally realized it was the corrupted eco complete, but I was getting po4 levels in the 50+ppm range.

but I strongly believe that 5ppm of Phosphates does not mean that I "micro manage my macros"

I never said that you are micro managing your macros. That's just a general statement based on EI. Sorry if you thought that.





My Scapes

That section in the middle is gorgous, LF. I was genuinely excited when I saw that pic.

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Back in the saddle!

No more phosphate adding for the next 2 weeks

I think this is a bad idea. The idea behind EI is to get yourself into a routine of dosing so your plants always have what they need. I think you should keep dosing, but do less. I'm in your boat with the PO4 LF, but I'm going to dose it. No matter how small an amount I find keeps the levels around 1-2 ppm, that's what I'm going to do.

For me it's very easy to first dissolve the powder from Greg Watson into a 2L bottle so that 1mL = .15ppm of PO4 in my tank using Chuck's calculator. Right now that's what I'm dosing every other day. My tap provides the rest. I may still need to increase the dosing as this was a lowball estimate, but I'm going to dose it and stick to it until I find I need to increase or decrease it.

If I were you, that's what I'd do. You don't have a real nasty algae problem, your plants are growing. Stick to it and dose small amounts until your tank levels off at 2ish ppm of PO4. This might take a while, but at least you'll find the right amount to be consistant.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Wings, tetratech, NowherMan6, and Matty,

Thanks for your input

Wings - I agree with your, building from the visual center down towards the sides would look very nice and I envision something like that (at least for the moment) in the future. But I cannot afford to disrupt the plants currently as they are just beginning to recover from the major replant. As for right now, I will have to stick to this "design".

tetratech - No, I didn't mean to say that you imply I would not follow EI and that I would micro manage. Sorry about that misunderstanding, I was just using your siggie line as a guide for my words. What surprises me though is that I cannot get a clear "You are right, 5ppm Phosphate is too much" out of anyone here .

NowherMan6 - Yeah, that part is nice, maybe because it kind of copies tetratech's center piece section . I guess I will have to order a bunch of wisteria now and replace all other parts with that plant .

Matty - I gave your suggestion quite some thought, even before you made it. Actually, I thought about this already when I had the 10ppm of Phosphate quite a while back. Why do I not want to add more P in the next two weeks: Traditionally I have noticed that my P uptake is not really strong, so a small amount of P is very sufficient (around 2ppm with minimal dosing to keep it there). Having had 5ppm before the 50% water change and having tab water with about 2ppm should give me around 3.5ppm right now. Let's assume that there will be a 1ppm uptake during this week (which I doubt), then I have 2.5ppm before the next water change and after that there should be around 2.25ppm of P. What I may do is dose just a little in the second week, towards the end.

The conceptual issue I have is that I cannot understand that the plants would make any use of more P than necesairy. We all know that EI says a tenth of N in P (20ppm N and 2ppm P) should be more then the plants can "eat". There seems to be zero advantage (and maybe loads of disadvantages) to being over that level. So, why would I dose any, even tiny, amount?


Anyway - Just to make it all more complicated: After my latest entry I went ahead and perused the web focussing on Duckweed. I tried to find a reference that would state something like "High P will kill Duckweed". Unfortunately the opposite was true, it appears that Duckweed likes high P, darn. So, if that is the case, why do I have almost none left in the tank? Yeah, I removed a lot last weekend, but usually it is coming right back. I doubt that the test kits are so off that I would actually be starving P (and N, for that matter). The only other thing I can think off is my Excel treatment which I did during the entire week. Maybe, just like Egeria, Duckweed doesn't do well with a heavy dose of Excel. This would also explain why my other two tanks are Duckweed free, even with the occasional seeding of duckweed.

K, enough rambling for now. You all know how I feel as you all have been in this situation (yeah, same boat tetratech ) when you think you got something figured out and the next thought is reversing the whole logic.

Thanks for sticking with me,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I did some minor water testing last night to see if I actually have enough CO2. Just because I inject an almost constant stream wouldn't have to be equal to good CO2. So I tested for ph and KH

ph = 6.5
KH = 4 (I added a little more baking soda than usual)

That means my CO2 should be around 38 to 40ppm. I guess that is sufficient, right?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

38-40 should be fine. but if you're getting BBA then maybe it's not fine enough...

BTW, you add baking soda? Do you do this after WCs? What's your baking soda dosing schedule and why do you do it?

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Back in the saddle!

LF,
I have a clear head right now, so let me interject some very sensible logic.

You say your ph is 6.5 and your kh is 4 so you have 39ppm.
Yes that sounds lovely. But let's say for argument purposes your ph is really 6.6 and your kh is 3.5 (which is totally possible) now your co2 is 26ppm. Still not bad, but... what if your ph is really 6.7 and your kh is 3 now your have co2 of 18ppm (Not as likely, but still very possible).

I have to defer to the great one. (In our little aqua world anyway). "Look at the fish, look at the plants. They will tell you more than some test kit"

My Scapes

I have to defer to the great one. (In our little aqua world anyway). "Look at the fish, look at the plants. They will tell you more than some test kit"

Wayne Gretzky said that? Hm, I don't recall. Maybe it was during his one season with the St. Louis Blues....

... if not that, then I assume you're talking about Bensaf.

Now I know this has been argued over and over again but I'm still hanging on to the test kit lifeline. Are they all really that unreliable, even ph? If a test kit says 5ppm P, are we supposed to just not believe it and keep adding anyway?

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Back in the saddle!

Yeah Bensaf, not Wayne. I'm such a suck up
There really is no way with a color strip IMO to know exactly what your ph is, so as I showed if the true number is off a little from your test kit than it could mean a big difference in the co2 number, so yeah look at the fish. I could tell you I have constant stream of bubbles and my fish are all looking fine and my tank is 2 feet shorter than LF.

As far as the 5ppm reading, you would hope that would be fairly accruate 4 to 6ppm but who knows.

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Wayne Gretzky said that?

Well, I for sure cannot guarantee that I have a ph of 6.5, maybe it is 6.7 or 6.3. I guess I could try to hook up my expensive ph testing device that I never used. Darn, I don't even remember what it is called .

Anyway, yes NowherMan6, I use Baking Soda. After each water change I add about 2tsp of baking soda to the tank to increase my KH which is normally from the tab about 1 KH .

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Yeah Bensaf, not Wayne. I'm such a suck up

Well he did give you mad props on your tank, so you owe him some serious rear-end smooching.

There really is no way with a color strip IMO to know exactly what your ph is, so as I showed if the true number is off a little from your test kit than it could mean a big difference in the co2 number, so yeah look at the fish. I could tell you I have constant stream of bubbles and my fish are all looking fine and my tank is 2 feet shorter than LF.

It just seems like test kits are useless if you're right. I mean what's the point? Is there even a range within which they're accurate?

For example, my ph test kit shows that before lights out, ph is 6.2 or under - it's a very light yellow. At first I was shocked by this because that would mean my CO2 is in the 90ppm range and my fish should be dead. But they're fine, no gasping at the surface at all, except for some normal gourami air breating. I'm even getting algae growth and my plant growth has slowed down considerably. There clearly isn't too much CO2, maybe even not enough according to the plants... but the test kit says otherwise. How would you advise proceeding?

All this test kit stuff has got me bothered. I'm afraid to even test my phosphates now...


EDIT: Thanks LF. My kH is also low, it's a 2. I may do the same to bump it up a bit. And I don't mean to hijack your thread with the above, it just seemed like an appropriate place to ask because the subject was breached earlier.

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Back in the saddle!

NowherMan6,

so you owe him some serious ...

Talking about test kits is not highjacking at all, this is right on topic.

Just like an addict, when I have problems in the tank then I dig out the ole test kit and measure like a madman .

Although I have to say that this time around I measured P, N, ph, and KH exactly once.

I was not going for absolute numbers but rather for comparison to measurements over the last 22 weeks, in good times and in bad (yes, I am married to the tank ). When looking at the recent values I only find one that is not the same then when I was almost algae free, and that is P.

Besides these measurement, the only other differences are:

- more fish
- less plants
- plants not established

Heck, besides the hardware and the substrate the whole tank has changed .

Can't be that hard to pinpoint the reason for the darn thread

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

See that's the danger If your ph is 6.2 and your kh is 2 you have a co2 of 38ppm not 90ppm.

If your ph was 6.0 and your kh still 2 than you have a co2 of 60pmm, big difference.

Now if your ph is 6.0 and your kh is 3, now you have a co2 ppm of 90. Wht if your kh is really 2.5, see what I mean.





My Scapes

more fish
less plants
plants not established

So what's the problem .
Waste, Mass and all that ....light. Now repeat after me "Sung to the tune of all the Jazz" Waste, mass and all that light, waste, mass and all that light.

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Now if your ph is 6.0 and your kh is 3, now you have a co2 ppm of 90. Wht if your kh is really 2.5, see what I mean.

Exactly, that's why I'm mad as heck about these test kits, I have no idea. The shade of yellow is between the shades on the chart. Impossible to know.Any more of this and I'm going to just crank the CO2, test kits be damned. I'm almost at the breaking point.

Waste, Mass and all that ....light. Now repeat after me "Sung to the tune of all the Jazz" Waste, mass and all that light, waste, mass and all that light.

Tetra, you've clearly gone mad with power due to the success of your tank. Come down from the edge....

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Back in the saddle!

due to the success of your tank

Well, it is a pretty tank I have to say

But don't worry, I assume it is just a question of time until the S hits the F . The Wisteria will revolt and decides that it deserves to be the tallest plant in the tank. The Riccia will have enough of being put in a hairnet and cuts itself lose. The oh so secret Stellata turns into a bean stalk, and the Star Grass into mush because it can't stand the dancing in front of the tank.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

A guy posts some pics of his tank and the master makes some nice comments and this is what I get:

Oh tetra, when your tank is covered in slimy brown staghorn and thread alage we'll look back and say that your hubris was your downfall. Reminds me of that famous ending line in Oedipus rex

.

But don't worry, I assume it is just a question of time until the S hits the F . The Wisteria will revolt and decides that it deserves to be the tallest plant in the tank. The Riccia will have enough of being put in a hairnet and cuts itself lose. The oh so secret Stellata turns into a bean stalk, and the Star Grass into mush because it can't stand the dancing in front of the tank.

And I thought wes were friends Don't worry you protists lovers, I'll get even

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What do you expect, you're the best of the best now. reminds me of that Far Side cartoon about the cowboy ping-pong players. The old grizzled vet goes "well kid, ya beat me - but now every paddle packin' player in the west lookin to make a name for himself is gonna come lookin' for you - welcome to hell, kid!" (please tell me I'm not the only one who likes the Far Side... )

Well tetra, every foreceps packin' plant person from Queensland to Queens, NY is gonna come lookin for ya...

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Back in the saddle!

You guys are seriously cracking me up!

Seriously though, I think tetra (aka grand wizard, mr. all that, etc. ) has a point about lights. In my tanks I've observed that as soon as I upgrade them to the higher light territory (>2.5wpg), there's a very delicate balance between good plant growth and algae appearance (which I haven't quite figured out yet ), all factors (plant mass, fish mass, ferts, CO2) being equal (or similar). In my lower light tanks, I get little to no visible algae, and even when I do, it's easily fixed. With higher light, there's less margin for error, so to speak.

Then again, maybe I'm still dreaming (just got up).

-P

Nowher


I guess I'll have to be really careful what I say, cause you all will be gunning for me at the Fish Profile Corral.


Upikabu,
100% correct with the lighting. I mean if you have enough plants and the conditions are good the plants will take advantage of the extra light and grow better, but if the other conditions aren't "upgraded" to take advantage of the new light then that's a big crack for the protist army to march on Rome. Speaking of Rome, I hung up a pic of ChaosMaximus's tank as motivation to keep up with my maintenance and fert schedule. I think if nowher and LF hang up his pic too, they'll feel a whole lot better about their tanks. Sorry Chaos




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We all know that EI says a tenth of N in P (20ppm N and 2ppm P) should be more then the plants can "eat". There seems to be zero advantage (and maybe loads of disadvantages) to being over that level. So, why would I dose any, even tiny, amount?

There's no way you will find that sweet spot in the dosing routine if you stop, start, stop, start. You will be condemned to eternal suffering not knowing how much to dose. I'd say that if you want to go ahead and zero the tank for the next two weeks, just start up with really slow dosing from there, like I said as little as .15ppm a day If you think that's all your plants need beyond what's in the tap. I'm only going to test until I figure out how much I need beyond what's in the tap.


IMO, Test kits are good enough to be taken with a grain of salt. The NO3 and PO4 test kits can be "calibrated" by testing them with a known solution made using Chuck's calculator. Tom Barr has done all the research to show us we don't need exact values for this stuff anyways. This is only to double check our work. First, we have Tom's work to show us with the use of large water changes, an average can be maintained. Then we have the plants to show us if something is amiss. And lastly we have the test kits to explain maybe why something is up.

I feel your pain with the pH test kits, Nowherman. These things are awful hard to read. If the color in the tube is between colors in the chart, then the number is between those. But I have a hard time telling which colors it's inbetween. I had a thread about a week ago about getting a pH controller(By the way LF I'll give you $50 for that thing). The thing with this is that we do want to be exact, and IMO the resolution on the liquid test kits is nowhere near where we need it to be. This is due to the logarithmic nature of the pH scale. A small difference and you can be WAAAAY off.

Oh, and did someone say

St. Louis Blues....

?(sorry I had to)



Attached Image:

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

How would you advise proceeding?

How to proceed without test kits is easy enough. Just add a known quantity of nutrients each week. Then you are in control.

Observing the tank will pretty much show the rest.

Plants like Hygro will show N and K deficiencies very quickly. Holes in old leaves will show lack of K, fall off or yellowing of old leaves will show a lack of N. Plants like Mayacca or red plants will show FE levels by their color.
Want to be sure the Co2 is good. Keep upping it until the fish show a sign of dis-comfort then pull it back just a notch. Or watch the growth, speed size etc, appearance of green spot or BBA will indicate the Co2 is not as good as it should be.
Still getting green spot algae P can be pushed higher.

The test kits are inaccurate to start with, the color charts are difficult to read etc.

Look at the difference in the color and growth in tetras tank (envy is a terrible things boys, leave him be ) since he added more nutrients.

Matty makes a good point that constant chopping and changing of routines is bad for both the tank and you. Stability is important for the tank, constant change makes it diffult to pinpoint issues, you get lost easily.

Usually upping things solve problems, reducing rarely does, more often then not it creates new problems.

I'm sure LF's problems are temporary. Theres a big job done, lot's of mulm kicked in the water. Mulm will cause problems, a big clean up should be done at least once a year. BGA for example can use it for carbonate. I didn't like the daily dosing routine.

I'm sure by upping the N (as a reference to above, his reineckii was doing bad, it's doing better now since he added more N, I'm telling you from experience that if N is low eineckii will stunt and twist and curl it's leaves like nobody, give it N and it'll right itself easy enough. See I do pay attention These are the little things I always look for when somebody is having a problem. I don't go for the fanciful theories. Sometimes you guys can't see the woods for the trees, except for tetra of course, he's great ), keeping the Co2 up and keeping everything stable will stop it. In the meantime hassle it. Remove what you can, Excel blast the rest.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

envy is a terrible things boys, leave him be

Would it be too awful of a pun to say that I'm literally green with envy over Tetra's tank?

Seriously though, he's come a long way following EI, certainly a far cry from turning the old 46 into a brewery tank. He certainly found his way to the path we're all looking for. We owe him a Guiness, or at least a Murphy's

Oh, and I guess we owe Tom Barr one too, for ya know, coming up with the whole EI thing...

I just tossed my pH kit in the garbage with some plant clippings. We'll see where this goes.

Oh and Matty- great to see another hockey fan on the boards Tough going for your Blues right now...

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Back in the saddle!

you get lost easily

Sure do

Well, this was fun again

Anyway,

- I am back on the bi-daily fert routine with macros one and micros the other day, so that should give more stability (although I am most certain that it was Bensaf who once told me that going to daily would be more stable .
- I don't think I can (or want to) do too much about the light as I have the second row on for 3 hours only. I think in this phase my plants need it to re-establish themselves. Half the light is only around 1.5wpg.
- Removing much of the existing algae creates a problem on the Helferi as I would have to cut off almost all leaves. Same counts for the Red Rubin Sword and half the Anubias leaves. How would I go about the wood and rock algae? Take a pad and rub it as good as I can? I cannot remove these entities.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

certainly a far cry from turning the old 46 into a brewery tank
Had to get that jab in didn't ya nowher.

Since you brought it up, here's a pic of me attempting to make black and tans in my kitchen. I think we should have a horror tank thread rated "r" for revolting. I think this pic would quality and I could name a few others


Attached Image:


My Scapes

How would I go about the wood and rock algae? Take a pad and rub it as good as I can? I cannot remove these entities.

Yes, you should be able to get one of those algae scrubber pads pretty cheap. Just be gentle and try not to rock the boat too much and it should come off.

As for the leaves, maybe take as much by hand and then... well, in theory, shouldn't the algae just die off as conditions improve

Had to get that jab in didn't ya nowher.

It wasn't a jab, it's one of my favorite FP member incidents. I didn't think it was as funny until I actually did DIY co2 myself and you realize the mix actually smells just like beer.

Great idea for a thread, start it up in GF

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Back in the saddle!

Yeah,

I guess looking at my tank at this stage and then comparing it to others (like the brewery above, for example) should make me feel better as it really isn't all that bad

But speaking off bad, or what not. I was thinking about lights and nutrients and what not this morning on the bus to work and I remembered an old entry from Bensaf where he reacted to my mass-interference (changing 15 things at the same time) by saying that even if the situation is improving I would never know why. So true

As such, it seems to be actually a good idea that the only parameter that I am changing right now is Phosphates. If it doesn't help, oh well - at least we can explicitly eliminate this one from the culprit list. Which reminds me - You all seem to agree that lowering my P the way I do it would not be good. I really would appreciate if you could help me out and answer the following questions:

1) Did you ever have knowingly 5ppm (or more) of P in your tank?
2) If so, did you have more algae than usual at that time?
3) Hypothetically speaking, plants take up nutrients. Do you belive they would take up more P when there are 5ppm in the water rather than 2ppm?
4) If not, why would it matter in what form a reduction of P is achieved (stop of adding P vs. adding tiny amounts)?

This are my nagging questions, I hope you don't mind

Thanks in advance,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

How would I go about the wood and rock algae? Take a pad and rub it as good as I can? I cannot remove these entities

I'm looking for a smily with a violin, but I can't find one. Not to rub it in, but all my hardscape is
removable

Bu seriously, how come you don't have a bigger clean up crew in your tank, I know it's not going to solve the problem. Will the gourmai and/or rainbows eat them. Supposely Cherry shrimps eat a wide variety of algae and are very durable.

Edit: Nowher I think I will start that thread, it can even be a poll, like most horrific tank situation.

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A thread of horrors, now there's one thread were I wouldn't have a suitable photo

Without trimming the leaves , try applying the Ecel onto the algae directly using a syringe.

1) Did you ever have knowingly 5ppm (or more) of P in your tank?

I have never owned a phosphate test kit. I have never tested for phosphate. I have no idea how much phosphate I have. It could be 1ppm , it could be 10ppm.I do know I add about 5ppm a week ! That's all I really need to know. I used to have to clean the glass a couple a times a week. I hardly ever clean it now.

2) If so, did you have more algae than usual at that time?

Dunno, can somebody post a photo of algae, I've forgotten what it looks like
I do know that green spot algae disappeared when I added a lot of P and was never replced by any other forms.

3) Hypothetically speaking, plants take up nutrients. Do you belive they would take up more P when there are 5ppm in the water rather than 2ppm?

You miss a very important point about nutrients. Don't obsess on uptake rates or what's left behind. It doesn't matter if growth is fast or slow. It doesn't matter if the tank is full of heavy nutrient consuming plants or slow low consuming ones 9once the tank is established). It doesn't matter if there's an excess of 1 ppm or 5ppm of P. What is vital is that there is non limiting growth, whether it be fast or slow. It's niches. Non limiting growth leaves no room for algae. Repeat after me algae do not need an excess of nutrients It's illogical. They need a gap, an opening. Non limiting growth of plants keeps this door firmly shut.

The only way to be certain that you have non limiting conditions is to add the nutrients yourself. Regularly. Keep the door shut. No need for test kits.With kits there will always always be a degree of uncertainty. By adding the nutrients you remove that uncertainty.

By changing things slowly and allowing things to develop you can focus in on issues.

Ladies and gentlemen,Elvis has left the building

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Interesting, LF and Nowher are both from Jersey.
O.K. we'll have to work around it. Do everything Bensaf has described but use bottled water from this point forward.


My Scapes

Gang,

Don't misunderstand my questions about this P thing as me trying to argue just for the argument sake. I really try to understand it. So please bear with me, if you have to give me the ole Violin so be it, but keep an open mind here. Call it my inexperience, or my tendency to take words in a foreign language (yes, remember - this is my second language) too literally, but I see nobody here who knows of having 5ppm of P and had no algae issues with it. Or call me crazy, I don't mind as long as you at least try to understand where I am coming from with this stuff.

Here are some extracts from Tom Barr's Estimative Index:

"Old myths still abound claiming excess PO4 in tap water causes algae, this has clearly been shown by many hobbyist to be patently false. The tap water has nutrients in it, then you do not have to dose these nearly as much, this is actually a good thing! Why take something out and then add it back again?"

He is not saying how much is considered excess that would not cause algae, though. But he says that if it is in the tab water then you don't have to add it (as much).

Then, in his section about recommended values:

"PO4 range 1.0-3.0 ppm"

And he continues:

"I have added to almost 3ppm of PO4 consistently week after week. Plant's response is incredible." And he says "At some point the plants will not take up any more traces. Same can be said for PO4."

Take the last statement and tag on Bensaf's statement of "Repeat after me algae do not need an excess of nutrients It's illogical. They need a gap, an opening. Non limiting growth of plants keeps this door firmly shut."

Wouldn't that be the opening? Tom never speaks of more than 3ppm of P, and he mentions that there is an uptake limit. The gap between that limit and the currently available 5ppm is the gap, the opening.

Further, Tom writes:

"By knowing what the tap water is comprised of and giving the water company a call to find out what the PO4, NO3, K, and Fe levels are, you can replace the water with water changes and use plain old chemistry or Chuck's calculator to figure out what you need for your nutrient levels without a test kit."

OK - P in my tab is 2ppm, right within his range. The conclusion would be that additional P is only required if P falls based on uptake. This is further supported by his next statement:

"The other issue about folks that often do not add macro nutrients/traces etc, is many do large water changes. These folks often do not know what their tap water has in it. If it is rich in NO3 and PO4 like many regions of the USA and Europe, then each week they do a large water change, they are adding nutrients and CO2. People wondered why my plants did so well with the water changes I did each week and when they tested found high levels of PO4, I was adding KNO3 and lots of traces and high light and high trace dosing and had no algae and dramatic plant health and growth."

But he ends with a comment in a question that states (well known to all of us, as Bensaf uses this as his punch line ): "It assumes that deficencies, not excess causes algae." Bu yet again, he never spoke of more than 3ppm of P.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

Three interesting paragraphs pulled from the EI Article.

"truthfully do not know what levels of NO3 and PO4 (for example) cause problems for plants or induce algae in a fully planted tank. NO3 levels above 40ppm can cause fish health issues. PO4 at very high levels can influence alkalinity (KH) above 5ppm-10ppm."
Has your KH been influenced?

"It is one of the biggest unknown variables in keeping planted tanks, watts/gallon does not tell you much, but rough guides are fine if the aquarist maintain the CO2 and nutrient levels well....An important aspect of this method is the knowledge that excess nutrients do not cause algae blooms as so many authors in the past and many today still maintain without having tested this critically in aquariums with a healthy plant biomass. It is a welcomed relief knowing that “excess” phosphate, nitrate and iron do not cause algae blooms."
Key word here "healthy plant biomass". So here he does leave the door open about excess nutrients and plant mass.

"For many years this has been the assumption but it is incorrect. Ammonium (NH4+) at low levels have been the primary causative agent for algae blooms in terms of an "excess" nutrient. This is why a planted tank using CO2 with moderate to high lighting cannot have enough nitrogen supplied by adding progressively more and more fish to the tank without getting algae blooms. It does not take much ammonium to cause the bloom. If you add NO3 from KNO3 you will not get any algae bloom, if you add even 1/20th of the ammonium you will get a very intense algae bloom. This test can be repeated many times and ran again and again with the same result. Adding NO3 will not induce the bloom."
You already know this, but you added more fish and decreased plant mass.

My Scapes

You already know this, but you added more fish and decreased plant mass.

Very interesting. LF, have you in fact checked for ammonia in your tank?

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Back in the saddle!

You know what? I haven't tested for Ammonia in ages.

I assumed that the fish I physically added are nothing compared to the fish that are in there already. And these have been upping the biofilter gradually as they started of tiny (and small in numbers) and gradually increased in size (and numbers).

I will check tonight

Thanks,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Yes, good idea Nowher you should definitely check, but just becuase your "test kit" doesn't detect anything doesn't mean there isn't enough there to feed algae. I think that is in the EI article as well, that the level might be so small.

BTW - LF, contribute to the new thread
http://www.fishprofiles.com/forums/thread.aspx?id=27413&rp=2

If you have anything

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tetratech,

You really created the thread, that's cool .

I will see if I have a good picture that would make an impression and post it. Can't wait until Chaos adds his picture .

I will measure tonight, as promised, but I also guess that I will not get any reading for Ammonia (or hope that I don't). I can imagine that I have upset the biofilter big time during my overhaul and what I have now is still the afterburner of that event.

Thanks,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

If a deficiency of phosphate causes algae, then how come I am not seeing lots of algae? My last test showed .5 ppm P. That's a far cry from 5 ppm! I have since added the NPK that I have, the nitrate at last test was 10 ppm, so I should now have 13.5 ppm, according to the dosing info. It may be a bit less, it may be a bit more, but I may still be short on P, would adding more food help? I'm sure the fish would enjoy it!

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Wouldn't that be the opening? Tom never speaks of more than 3ppm of P, and he mentions that there is an uptake limit. The gap between that limit and the currently available 5ppm is the gap, the opening.

That wouldn't qualify as a gap. The nutrients are present all the time whether it be 1ppm or 5ppm. So there's no opening there.
The opening is when something is limiting plant growth. Think of it kind of like a predator constantly circling a herd waiting for a sick, weak or old prey to seperate from the herd, then he strikes. Doesn't make any difference whether there's 10 antelope or 100, he needs to wait for the sick weak one.
Even a small amount (a smidgen maybe ? ) of NH4 is an opening.

Note too when Tom talks about excesses it's never regarding algae issues, never. It's plant/fish toxicity, it's about causing changes in water parameters etc , but never algae.

Even if your tap is 2ppm of P you'll still need some. The uptake per week should be about 3ppm , so you'll s

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

luvmykrib - If your P should be really low then you will for sure get algae, now that you have more light and DIY CO2 (if I remember that right), just give it some time

Bensaf - Makes sense. Well, let me take your uptake number of 3ppm per week. I will measure what P is tomorrow and see how much has been tanken up. My uptake for sure did take a big hit with the replant a few weeks back. I guess this was the opening then. Thanks

In general, I did measure and lucky didn't come up with any detectable Ammonia. Yeah, I know, there still may be some small amounts (like a nip ), but at least I am not off the scale.

Thanks again all for hanging in there with my nagging P questions,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

0.5 ppm PO4, is it really low? I was reading the Tom Barr EI article and that's right in the range, is there somewhere else where he says more is better? If so, what should I be aiming for? I have only green spot algae, a tiny bit of staghorn in my 25g, more staghorn and green spot in the 10g though.

Side question, what causes black beard algae and what makes it go away? I'm asking for my brother's 55g which has the stuff in it. Low-light, some plants, 2-3 years old, fairly well maintained, he's doing weekly water changes now.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

luvmykrib,

0.5ppm is really low when you want to maintain a 10 to 1 balance of N to P and strive for 20ppm of N. That's at least the values I am playing with at this high tech / high light tank. Your algae (and your brothers) is most likely from a nutrient imbalance. Did you ever see This Page? It shows you some info about what algae is caused by what. BBA has an entry that says it is based on high P, but that has to be put in relation to N, as your P might be just right but N might be too low (and K and micros, of course).

Hope this helps

Anyway - I had the day off and what else is there to do when it is cold outside than tank maintenance? As such I did my weekly water change on all 3 tanks and will create my weeky update today rather than tomorrow or on Sunday.

Weekly Tank Update - Week 23

The last week has seen very little to no action. I just let the plants grow, added my ferts (no P) and food, and that was it. Pretty much all week was spent on discussing how much of P is right . The plants have been doing fine and it seems the spread of thread algae is beginning to slow down or even stop (or I just got used to it). I needed to trim the Star Grass and was immediately reminded of tetratech's first attemp which concluded with bad growth for a while. As such I trimmed it only a little, just enough to allow the water to flow over it.

So, with many more words, here are 3 totals over the last 4 weeks for comparison purposes. This is the tank 4 weeks ago when the current layout was just created:

Attached Image:

Week 19, new Layout

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

In week 21, 2 weeks later, some plants startedt show nice signs of growth. Others, like the Macandra, started to lose leaves and others, like the Helferi showed a major increase in thread algae:

Attached Image:

Week 21

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Today, another 2 weeks later, the Star Grass is still growing strong and the Pearl Grass is picking up the pace as well. Algae is still a subject though. I also did not have another major loss of leaves on the Crypt Retrospiralis anymore, only a few melted this week:

Attached Image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is a close-up of the Alternanthera showing us how beatiful pink-purple the underside of its leaves can be.

Also, have a look at the vertical leaf on the left side and how it is covered in thread algae. That is a leaf from the Red Rubin Sword

Attached Image:

Alternanthera

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

This close-up is for all the old and new friends of Amano Pearl Grass (right upikabu ). It is the group that grows right in front of the big branch in the middle of the tank. Some branches are growing straight up while others prefer to crawl along the substrate.

I guess if I would cut off the tall branches I could achieve a nice carpet effect with the crawlers, like the Dr. does.

Attached Image:

Pearl Grass

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And last but not least:

Who says I am fat?

Seriously, the question here is if it is normal that some Otos are so much bigger than others, or if this indicates that the top right one is a female.

I thought it is a nice shot:

Attached Image:

Oto and Oto and OOOOto

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Ingo - interesting to see the pearl grass crawling across the substrate. Do they actually send the horizontal runners themselves, or did you something special (e.g. tetra dance ) to encourage it?

Nice fat otto. I assume they have plenty to eat in your tank - you only have 6 right? Your tank can probably feed triple that amount without a hitch. The 3 otos in my 23g are even fatter than yours, plenty of protists to eat I guess.

Cheers!

-P

Seriously, the question here is if it is normal that some Otos are so much bigger than others, or if this indicates that the top right one is a female.

Interesting. I have one that's the same way fatter then all the others. So much so I thought it was bloat, but it's been that fat for over a year now and still going, so it must be just obesity or a sexual difference. All the others are much slimmer.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

No, I didn't do anything to tame the Pearl Grass, it decided to grow this way all on its own. As to why - I have no idea.

The Otos are a miracle. Why would some under the same conditions (age, food source, tank) become so much fatter than others. I can't imagine it would have anything to do with alpha males as food is available all over the tank.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Female.

Producing eggs then?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Perhaps, but in general, they are already likely quite wide. As with all loricariidae, they reabsorb any eggs not laid.

very interesting!

So LF where are the weekly pictures??

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

I have been thinking about the P issue. Here's my thought, excess P and low light, no CO2 may cause BBA, it has in my 10g. In Ingo's tank, excess P and high light and CO2 cause...flowers! In terrestrial plants, the nutrient that encourages blooming is phosphate. Nitrogen makes things green, phosphate makes things bloom and potassium makes roots grow. How different can aquatic plants be from that?
Anyway, now that it is out of my head and here in print I can get some other deep thinking done. Like why no-one has visited me in my thread lately, it's so lonely there.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Here's my thought, excess P and low light, no CO2 may cause BBA,

Low Co2 and unstable (either high or low) Co2 will cause BBA. In a non Co2 injected tank , water changes will provide the unstable Co2 levels.

Never known P to have any role in the appearance of BBA.

KH, lots of mulm will have a bigger role. BBA is very good at grabbing the small amount of carbon it needs from carbonate and organic matter.

Algae seems to be lousy at using inorganic sources of nutrients such as that in the KNO3 and KH2PO4 we use.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Taken from a page on Chuck Gadd's site, courtesy of the link Ingo posted.

Red algae: Also called Black Beard Algae (bba), or Black Brush Algae. Short hairs (1/4" long), closely packed together. Appears dark green, black, or dark red. Grows on plant leaves, and sometimes on decorations/substrate. Often grows all around the edges of plant leaves.
BBA thrives in situations of high phosphates. Phosphates come from fish waste, excess food, and occasionally will be present in the water supply. The best way to eliminate BBA is to let the plants out-compete the algae for the nutrients.

In heavily planted tanks, BBA will often show up when the plants have used up all the nitrates. This causes plant growth to slow or stop, which leaves the excess phosphates available to the algae. By supplying extra Nitrate to a planted tank, we allow plant growth to continue until all phosphate is consumed. Then plant AND algae growth will slow/stop. As long as a usable (5-10ppm) level of Nitrate is maintained, the the plants will continue to use up the available phosphate, effectively controls BBA and other phosphorus-dependant algaes. See the article "Adding Nitrate to a Planted Tank" for detailed instructions on how to increase your Nitrate levels.

Thus excess of P will cause BBA, when there is not enough nitrate. I added both nitrate and phosphate together and now have BBA in my 10g tank. This tank has no CO2, has 1.5 wpg, and is pretty fully stocked. There was no BBA before the addition of the NPK. My 25 on the other hand has .5ppm of P, better light, 2.5 wpg, CO2 at a steady level and no BBA.
But really, my idea was more that Ingo seems to get flowers more often than anyone else and it could be the P that is making it happen. He must have a good balance of nutrients including P to make the plants bloom the way they do. Have to admit I'm jealous and am starting to beg my anubiuas to put out even a little flower!

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

speaking of flowering plants. I have had two crypts flower at work. All I give them is some excel every other day.


55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

I knew someone else had them flower, couldn't remember who. What's the PO4 level in your tanks that have had flowers? Any idea? It's just a theory based on what I have learned from gardening, I thought I would put it out there and see if anyone could absolutely rule it out. Finding the right balance and maintaining it would be a trick, although I don't worry overmuch about my land plants, they flower for the most part, but lawn grass can be brought into bloom by adding fertilizer with more P in it, fall fertilizer generally has more k and spring fertilizer has the most N.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

I have no idea how much P the tanks at work have in them. I only way they are getting it is from fish food because I don't thing the kool steril system lets that through but i could be wrong.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Fish food, fish poop, are just 2 ways of P getting in, water changes if it's in the water supply is another way. Generally store tanks are overstocked and over filtered to compensate, but they must still get some P build-up, I don't think UV gets rid of it, but I could be wrong on that. My water supply from the city goes through UV and it still gets to me with a hardness of 300, and who knows what else.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

UV generally removes only organic contaminants such as bacterium. Hardness salts should remain unaffected.

Does it also remove phosphates?


"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Not that I'm aware of.

Thus excess of P will cause BBA, when there is not enough nitrate.

Next time you read the article, check when it was written

It's old stuff. A lot has changed, our knowledge has increased since then, mainly due to the testing of some the more experienced guys.

These kind of aruments were the kind of thing that started the "excess nutrients myths". Lot of people concluded P caused algae therefore P is bad.

In a case as described above the stalling of plant growth due to the lack of nitrates will cause the algae - nothing to with P. The algae would have come whether the P was 5 or 0.5ppm.

To stop BBA in a non Co2 tank don't do water changes or use Excel.

Or if you don't believe that try adding N, NOT elimating P,and see if that helps !Bet it won't. In which case that theory is down the drain. You can test these thu=ings yourself if you're willing to play with a tank.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Hi,
My only comment is to mention that a UV system will not
remove anything. It will kill anything alive that passes
through it. Parasites, live algae spores, etc. It is a
sterilizer, not a filter.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Little_Fish?

Where are you?

Hope you're well!

You're falling down on your 10 posts/day!

Please come back!

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Hi,
Didn't he say something about hurting his back shoveling
snow?
I too hope he is doing ok.
Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Yeah he did a while back. No pun intended.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Nah, he probably pulled his back messing around with the driftwood and rocks in his tank.

Geezer.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Thanks Matty

Well, I am back now.

I couldn't stand the look of my algea anymore and treated myself (and the family) to another view.

I have to read all new entries in this and the other threads before I can make any fish related entries, I only came back early this morning and haven't even seen my tanks yet.

In the meantime, enjoy the view

Attached Image:

The Really Big Tank

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Welcome back, Ingo! We've missed you.
Glad you enjoyed yourself while we're messing with our tanks.
Did you see any algae in that big tank?

-P

Thanks upikabu,

I am sure there is algae in the really big tank, but it fits right in

On the other hand, I am already in PANIC MODE again. I checked on the tank a few minutes ago and found loads of thread algae on many leaves and all over the wood and rocks. All fish seemed to be doing fine and it took my a while to see what was going on:

My CO2 bottle is empty

And that on a Sunday . I have no idea when the bottle ran out. I for sure did not see a low meter reading before I left. Grrrrrrrrr

I will do a large water change later and supplement with Excel until I get a new bottle.

So much about a happy return

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Ingo,

First things first, - Welcome back. I think I could speak for everyone that you were missed.

My CO2 bottle is empty

Your not going to believe this, but my bottle ran out yesterday and I never noticed the high pressure gauge was down. I'm running on fumes and still have a small stream coming out of my diffusor.

So since we started our tanks I believe at the same time I guess I could conclude that I've been running more co2 than you based on the 50+ gallon difference in our tanks.



My Scapes

tetratech,

thanks for the warm welcome , I had FP withdrawal symptoms for the first few days of vacation, but then I got used to the fact that snorkeling and staring at fish from the dark side is fun as well.

Yeah, you sure must have been using more CO2 than I did. I am kind of glad to hear that your bottle is going on empty as well. I was thinking that my regulator might be broken, but if yours is down too then the likelyhood that I just ran on empty "naturally" is pretty high.

Here is a full tank shot. The Star Grass and the some other plants don't seem to mind the thread algae and the lower CO2 values, the Macandra is near death.

Attached Image:

Full Tank, no maintenance yet

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

Tank looks pretty darn nice from that distance. It's hard to believe there are issues. I know it's fun to grow different species, exotics, etc, but it's the tank that's important, so don't drive yourself crazy trying to keep one species. As I've said before you can't be all things in all fish and plants.

BTW - I forget is there any preparation when disconnecting the co2 tank for refill?


My Scapes

Hi,
Welcome back...

SOME PEOPLE have ALL THE FUN!

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

tetratech,

You are right (as usual, or at least as very often ), I shouldn't drive myself crazy. The problem is that there are threads now all over the place and I only can hope that they will dissapear by themselves once the new CO2 bottle is hooked up and all can balance out again. BTW, I cannot get a bottle until tomorrow evening, the earliest.

About preparations: I don't think so, just close the old bottle and unscrew it, hook up the new one as if it would be the first time setting it up. Meaning, blow out the bottle a little first, then screw the regulator on (with the white tape), make sure all valves are in the right position, and open the main valve. That should be it.

I will go and do the water change now, maybe I try to remove some old leaves. I for sure have to trim the Star Grass and maybe also some Pearl Grass, although I might keep that one long just to have enough settled plant mass in there for the time being.

Ingo

EDIT: Frank - Thanks

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

Any bubbles coming out of diffusor at all. I still have a small stream even though my pressure is gone, I guess that's normal with gas. If you have nothing at all it might have run out before mine or it's not strong enough to make it thru the reactor. Do you have any bubbles in the bubble counter?

My Scapes