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L# Freshwater Aquaria
 L# Planted Aquaria
  L# LITTLE_FISH 125G Log
   L# Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 175, 176, 177, 178, 179, 180
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SubscribeLITTLE_FISH 125G Log
LITTLE_FISH
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Week 8, 2 rocks added to the left, plants trimmed and moved

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LITTLE_FISH
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Week 9, new plants added to tank, loads of plants moved / removed on left tank side

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LITTLE_FISH
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Week 10, rock added to the right, plants moved / removed all over the tank. When you compare week 9 and this one you will see how the Apon on the left back (just to the right of the filter intake) has grown. I bet you that it will reach the surface in 2 to 3 weeks .

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LITTLE_FISH
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Now on to some tank details, I am sure I will try to capture more in the near future .

Here is the Rotala Macandra pearling after the water change

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LITTLE_FISH
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And here is the Xmas Moss doing the same

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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How about another Oto shot? This one is holding on to the thinnest twig in the tank

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LITTLE_FISH
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My remaining female Pearl (hoping that this picture will not be “in memory of” very soon)

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LITTLE_FISH
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My male Pearl (same hopes as with last picture)

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LITTLE_FISH
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Here a shot of the new right side. Some of you might not even know that I always had the Red Rubin Sword in the tank, it was mostly hidden in the right hand jungle. I moved it forward and more centered.

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LITTLE_FISH
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This picture is called “Retro-Espei” (I guess I am losing it )

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LITTLE_FISH
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For all the school fans, me included, may I introduce: THE SCHOOL

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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And because it was so nice, here is another one

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Wingsdlc
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LF,

All I have to say is holy Espei batman!! How many do you have now?? They look really good!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks Wingsdlc,

How many do I have? No idea

I counted the ones in the last picture, there are around 50 (including 10 adults). Overall I would guess there are around 80 to 100. The smaller ones tend to stay close to the bottom plants to dart away when adults and old fry come too close.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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LF,

Great pics and great school. Looks like about 35 espei in the pic, so you must have between 50 and 500

What kind of parameters are you using for your pics?



My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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tetratech,

Well, I don't really know yet what I am doing with the camera, I promise I will research and let you know.

The reason the pics are better than "usual" is because today is my BIRTHDAY and I got a Macro Lens 90mm F/2.8 .

Have to go and shovel snow now ]:|.

Ingo


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tetratech
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Well HAPPY BIRTHDAY little_fish!

Looks like the Espei are doing a parade in your honor.
Hope you have a good one!







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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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LF,

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
goldfishgeek
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Happy Birthday LF!

hope you enjoyed your day and your tanks!

GFG

_______________________________________
Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey S. Firestone
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile Homepage Yahoo PM Edit Delete Report 
upikabu
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Happy Birthday Ingo!

Nice pics of the rush hour traffic at the LF house.

-P
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Happy Birthday

'Tis a grand age.Too old to die young and too young to die now.


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Well thank you everyone for the birthday wishes

It was a nice day, there is nothing better than getting a stiff back from shoveling wet snow (old age, I know).

There is nothing new to report on the tank. Currently the plants are growing nicely and any existing algae are not multiplying like mad (I think). The Pearls in the QT don’t show any signs of illness, nevertheless I ordered the medication from Seachem and it should arrive in 2 days.

Speaking about the Pearls – no signs of romance anymore, the male is actually becoming very territorial. He confined the female to one corner of the tank and rarely allows her to venture into other sections. He is not immediately aggressive when she approaches him, but at her first sign of being scared of him he chases her away. Hope that will change when his hormones kick in. Any idea if this is normal?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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Happy birthday LF, and congrats on the new lens .



Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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The reason the pics are better than "usual" is because today is my BIRTHDAY and I got a Macro Lens 90mm F/2.8 .


Holy moly, just read this. HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

...late ...

A fine choice of lens, by the way. ::ahem:: How's she been treating you? Looks like you've been shooting pretty wide open. Stop down to 4 or 5.6 and bump up your ISO to 800 or 1600 and watch what she can do

And nice school by the way. I'm sure the hugeness of the school has taken away some stocking options for you, but look at that, it's gotta be worth it, right?


Back in the saddle!
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bananacoladafuze
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Hey Little Fish. *wave*
Happy (belated) birthday.
I've been reading your thread since you started it, and it's very funny and informative. I know you probably told us what other fish you wanted in the tank somwhere along the way, but I'm really too lazy to go reread twenty-something pages to find it. So, what else is going in?
How much longer before the pearls go into the tank? After you're sure they're healthy and safe to add, are you going to wait until most of the fry are schooling, or are you going to let them fend for themselves? (Can't be too hard to hide in a tank with that many plants and hiding spots.)
The tank looks amazing. Keep posting pictures.

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Well thanks again for the birthday wishes

NowherMan6 – on page 26 I even mention that you advised me on the lens . And a large school is way cool. Too bad they don’t behave like this yet all the time, but I am sure once the fry gets older it will happen.

bananacoladafuze – Thanks for your entry in my thread, I am always happy when someone new comes in and has something to say . Yeah, the Pearls will go in the big tank in about 3 to 4 weeks. If the fry can’t hide, tough luck . I cannot protect them forever as they would overpopulate the tank one time after another (if they haven’t done that already).

You know, I don’t even remember if I mentioned what other fish are supposed to go in the tank, I know I did a long time ago in another thread when I was in the decision phase. If I remember it right, then there were nice sized schools of Rummies (canceled) and Glow Lights (cancelled), Cories (cancelled), a school of Black Neon Tetras (cancelled), a smaller school of Rainbows (might still happen), Gouramies (are here ), and Rams (will hopefully come one day, I am scared as I killed 2).

Thanks again,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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on page 26 I even mention that you advised me on the lens


Sorry i missed that. I haven't been following everyones' logs too well for the past week - or my own for that matter. Last week i worked bewteen 16 and 20 hours per day for 5 days, then i was away this weekend. All I had time to do was throw a few towels over my own tank (GW black out) on thursday night - or friday morning, i cant remember, it all blends together - and write the occasional post here and there.

sorry to ramble... and congrats on the lens


Back in the saddle!
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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LF,

What do you have in mind for Rainbows? I am becoming a super big fan of these guys. My 40 gallon is probably going to have some in there sooner or later. Probably later.....poor!

Edit: did you ever get your Proper Water Circulation thing figured out??

Last edited by Wingsdlc at 05-Dec-2005 20:23

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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NowherMan6 – I know how you feel. I am about to get seriously busy at work. I am having a project due by the end of January and “under normal conditions” it would take me until March to do it.

Wingsdlc – The rainbow I have in mind is the Dwarf Neon Rainbow (Melanotaenia praecox). They don’t get too big and I don’t have a silvery/blue fish yet. A school (shoal) of 6 would be nice.

The water circulation, no – haven’t figured that one out yet . Currently I am going again with my spraybar horizontally on the left side top. I am considering making my own along the whole length of the tank, but that will take some time .

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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LF,

The Dwarf Neon Rainbows are what I have had in mind for my tank too. I really like them. I also have two male Boesemani Rainbows in another tank that I have been thinking about adding in there too. If I do that any time soon I will have to do something with my 20 gallon. (So many gupppies!)

About the spray bar. I think you would probably like it to have one the length of your tank. When or if you do this. I don't know that amount of pressure that your filter is going to be making but if you can make your bar into separet chucks so you can twist them for different angles would be cool. Much like keithgh's tank.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Wingsdlc,

Yeah, these livebearers I have platies and they are a similar "pest" (I love them).

I have the same spraybar as Keith does. The problem there is that you can only angle up and down, but not left and right. And it is way too short for the length of my tank, it fits easily on one side (less than 18 inches).

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 06-Dec-2005 08:16


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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LF,

Ok I see what you mean. You want something that can cover the length of your tank and you can move left to right/up and down? If that is what you want then you have a project on hand.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
bananacoladafuze
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Dun dun duuun.
*cough* Uh, sorry 'bout that...
Why do you want to be able to move the spraybar around?

______________
Cake or death?
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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bananacoladafuze,

Good question. Let me try to explain:

I have one large Eheim Pro II canister filter to clean my water. Its output is a spraybar that is currently located on the left tank side, horizontally, just about an inch below the surface (to avoid any excessive surface agitation which is bad for CO2 injected tanks – gas exchange). The flow of water that I get from this barely reaches the right side of the tank and as such the water over there could, at least theoretically, become stale and/or insufficiently mixed with CO2 and/or plant fertilizer.

I previously had the spraybar vertically to blow along the back of the tank’s length, I also had a powerhead located in various spots within the tank, all to assure proper water distribution. The problem then was that it created too much flow and plants were blown all over the place. I just don’t like it when thin leaved plants bend to one side too much.

So, I figure that when having a spraybar along the entire back I would not get an enormous output through each of its holes, meaning the generated current per hole is low. Then I could go and make sure that each area of the tank gets proper filtered water.

I guess that is what I want .

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bananacoladafuze
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Oooh, okay. I figured it was something like that. Are you actually gonna have to make the spraybar yourself? Doesn't seem like it would be too hard if you do.

______________
Cake or death?
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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Chances are I am making it way harder than it has to be. My brain does that sometimes!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks you 2,

I am not sure when - and if - I will do something. But I am also looking into [link=This System]http://www.modularhose.com/" style="COLOR: #ff6633[/link]. We will see...

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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LF,

Now you are talking!! You could do some sweet work with a hand full of thoughs! I have played with them before but I don't remember what it was on now........Wait! I worked at Napa for about 3 years and they had thoughs conecting thinkies on the fly wheel grinder. Thats what it was!! So yeah anyways keep us posted! (I really didn't have to say that....)

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
bananacoladafuze
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Hahaha. I'd be tempted to play with 'em. They're so colorful!
Edit: Of course, my boss would probably have a problem with me bringing them to work and poking customers with 'em.
The web site says that the 3/4 size can be used to support cameras. Does this mean I can make a really funky camera stand out of the Loc-line stuff? I'm trying to figure out how that would work....

Last edited by bananacoladafuze at 06-Dec-2005 13:53

______________
Cake or death?
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Gang,

There has been quite a series of “talk-only” posts, so I figured it is time to add some pictures again.

Ingo

The first one shows a Sag Subulata “Narrow Leaf” plant with 2 leaves that must be at least 20 inches long as they almost reach the surface of my 24 inch high tank. I didn’t know that this plant can reach such a height.

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LITTLE_FISH
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This one shows an Anubias Nana that is surrounded and covered up by the Xmas Moss on top, Dwarf Sag Subulata on the right and left, and Glosso on the bottom

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LITTLE_FISH
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This one is for tetratech and NowHerMan6, you guys are not alone in the Algae War – “Long live the Staghorn”

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LITTLE_FISH
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Here is a shot of the dense Glosso carpet in front of and in-between Rock Valley

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LITTLE_FISH
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Last but not least, yet another Glosso close-up

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tetratech
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LF,
That glosso really looks great. I find the hairgrass to be a major pain, someone on another thread actually suggested I "comb" it.

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Hey LF can I see algae on your Annubus nana? cos thats what mine looks like.................

I still want your tank. although that thing you are going to buy - the Loo Line system that really made me laugh!

any how must get back to staring at my tanks, did all the WC changes tonight and they look beautiful accept for the aglae which I have decided to live with!

is it time for a big picture yet?

GFG

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bensaf
 
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Ingo,

The algae in the moss. I don't think it's staghorn. Looks like green thread algae. Can be a problem in mosses, bet it's not growing anywhere else ? . Easy to remove - get a toothbrush (not one you use, an old one, or mabe the wife's ) stick it in there and twirl it around, like wrapping spaghetti around a fork. You find the threads of algae come out very easily.The kids can help you with this , they may enjoy it and may even stop thinking Daady's gone a little cuckoo


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Don't forget to chant and dance around the tank while you're at it. Oops was that in print?
Is it really that easy to get it out of a tank? Why oh why didn't I have the internet when I still had the 2g, that thing was full of thread algae!
I fixed it by breaking down the tank and giving it away! That'll teach that nasty stuff to grow in my tank!
Love the pics, that glosso tempts me so! The sags look really good too!
But I must remain strong and stave off temptation.[img src='/images/forums/halo.gif' border=0]
Easy enough as I have'nt seen it available here at all!

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Thanks all for the input,

Bensaf – The algae is mostly in the moss. It forms some very long strands, reaching up to 6 inches (then I usually “clean” them out with the next water change). These strands are also forming on other plants though. Nevertheless, certain parts of the moss have a dense population of much shorter bright green algae and an attempt to pull on it would remove the moss from the rocks. I guess I still have to work on adjusting my nutrient supply.

luvmykrib and tetratech – yeah, the Glosso is very nice. Somewhere much earlier in this thread are some pictures that show how few of it I had in there initially. Now I am actually faced with the question if the Glosso needs pruning. At some points it grows 4 rows on top of each other and I get worried that it shades itself too much. My experiment in the 20G with 2wpg and Glosso is still ongoing. I checked last night and new growth is still developing but older existing leaves are becoming yellowish. I am almost certain that it is fertilizer related as I keep them in short supply in this tanks (it is a QT after all, at least at the moment). Or maybe it is insufficient light.

Ingo


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I guess I still have to work on adjusting my nutrient supply

Did you think you bottomed out, or do you still think excess n,k,p causes algae?

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NowherMan6
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Did you think you bottomed out, or do you still think excess n,k,p causes algae?


it's funny you brought this up, because I just got a newsletter in my email today from the fishkeeping section of about.com (long story) and the headline was "Fast and easy cure for green hair algae!" Naturally I clicked on the link to the article with much gusto and fervor, only to find that their cure was.... you probably guessed it, get rid of N and P! ::roll eyes::

I feel like there's always the temptation to say, well i need to lower N, P or what have you, but when you think about it it doesn't make sense. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't algae of various types "better" at using those macros than higher level plants? So if that's the case, how is it even possible to have a level of say N that would benefit plants and not algae? The plants need it no matter what, you have to give it to them. Algae is going to be able to use it no matter what. To my mind, anyway, that sounds like it can't be excess N or whatever that causes algae to grow.

And please correct me if I'm missing something here. Maybe not enough CO2?


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LITTLE_FISH
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Yeah,

I hear you guys. Whenever one reads a particular interpretation of the algae issue then it sounds rather reasonable. I guess I will try to do some testing tonight to see what my current N, P, CO2 is. I somehow don’t think that I bottomed out on any of these and I suspect that the micros somehow mess with me. But if it is too much or too little, hell – I don’t know .

Ingo


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bensaf
 
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To my mind, anyway, that sounds like it can't be excess N or whatever that causes algae to grow.




He gets it !!!!!

If algae is a single cell protestant buddist or whatever the hell it is, it only needs minuscule amounts of nutrients. Much much less then plants. So why oh why would it need excessive amounts to flourish ????? It really only holds true when there are nutrients available that plants don't need, like silica causing brown algae.

That's not to say we just dump huge amounts of nutrients in and all problems are solved. High amounts will cause problems for livestock, flora and fauna. Really high nitrates or co2 will hurt fish. Excessive amounts or imbalances of certain nutrients can cause toxic reactions in plants. But, luckily the levels needed are really high. A few plants are more sensitive to some nutrients then other. But it's quite a few species.So the range is quite wide, which is where EI comes in, dose to excess but a tolerable excess.

It's the imbalances of nutrients that give the illusion that excess cause algae. For a long time people thought 10-15ppm of Co2 was good enough. It wasn't , and that imbalance caused a lot of issues, issues people attributed to other nutrients. Raising Co2 levels solved a lot of that.

For reasons we really don't understand, it seems when the plants are growing at their optimum level algae doesn't appear. That's were the focus needs to be.

Everytime you folks have an algae issue you go straight to the nutrients. Is this or that in my tap, am I dosing too much of this or that? Never really hear anybody mention the plants. Eyeball them, any plants not growing the way they should, slower, smaller, leggier, paler ? That's where you'll find the answers. Chances are things aren't growing the way they should be and algae pops up. Correct the plant issue and you'll correct the algae problem.

Look at tetras cuurent issue, GW, pops up at the same he had problems with plant growth. Co-incidence ? LF has been moving a lot of things and put in a lot of new plants, most of which will take time to acclimatise and really get growing (for some plants this can be as long as a month), so not all plants are growing to their full potential at the moment. Algae pops up. Co-incidence?

You all have a bit of experience under your belt now, you've seen algae, you've beaten algae, you've seen it come back to some extent.Ask yourself these questions:

Do you really believe, from your experience, that excess macros or micros caused your problems?

Have you seen more problems when your nutrients were lower or higher?

As algae appearance ever coincided with reduced plant growth?

Is what you are dosing sufficient to sustain or improve the growth you are seeing?

I think I might need another long break

BTW, the whole "Star Wars" thing that went on. I've got an announcement to make:

Tetratech, I am your father


Last edited by bensaf at 07-Dec-2005 21:43


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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bensaf,

You are too much! Sometime if you get a chance take a look at my thread . I would like to hear what you have to say. New pictures will be coming up sometime tomorrow!!

55G Planted tank thread
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Anyway pretty sure it's from all the reduced plant mass since 2 of my 3 main stem groups are not functioning.
I said the above in my thread back on Dec 2nd referring to my latest GW.

I agree, but the one thing that I have not seen is how plant mass plays a role in dosing. I mean if you hve one stem of a very needy plant that must have co2, high light, etc to survive and there is nothing else in the tank just hardscape are you going to dose that tank the same way that you would a tank that has shoulder to shoulder plants. I think you walk a fine line with algae and GW if you don't have that really good mass. If you remember I got GW early on and beat it when my plant mass was huge and then when my main groupings stopped growing as you mentioned the GW came back. So what caused the GW. I was testing nh3, "Zero", no2 "zero". Is the nh3 in the substrate and then when you scape and move things around you realize enough nh3 to get the algae or GW going again. The odds or how bad it get's is probably based on a combination of plant mass and light.

Actually here's Amanos take on "Creating a Balance"
"The amount of a liquid fert needs to be altered depending on the volume of aquatic plants in an aquarium" In the case of stems plants that grow well with an addition of a liquid fert the amount of the fertilizer given right after planting may be small. However since they grow fast, they become dense in a short period of time. Therefore the amount of liquid fert may have to be doubled and tripled depending on their growth. However, in order to maintain stem plants they need to be trimmed periodically. When plants are trimmed back the overall plant volume is decreased and the amount of fertilizer needs to be reduced accordingly. Such adjustments of the amount of supplementation, both up and down must be made by observing the volume and condition of aquatic plants"

This is pretty much what I have said over and over and is my problem with EI. Bensaf if I'm interpreting your comments correctly your saying the same thing, so why when plant mass decreases do you get algae when nh3 is zero.
Dad please be gentle in your response.

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bensaf
 
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Well son,

Actually now that I think of it I'm too young to be your father. More of a slightly older brother, you know the one you were jealous of because he got the good looks, charm and girlfriends

We're talking about 2 different things. You talk about plant mass , I'm talking about plant growth.

Firstly EI is about dosing to a slight excess. In a lower plant mass situation the excess is a bit more but should not cause any additional problems. We've all seen tanks that are working well and not totally covered in plants.

Yeah, packing them out at the start is a good idea to get things established. But they can be thinned out and removed later.

When I mention your tank problems I'm not saying it's a result of lower plant mass rather one of stalled/reduced growth. There's a subtle difference. The reduced mass is a byproduct of the stalled growth. There's usually other byproducts - algae.

You saw your tank run well when growth was good, even though it wasn't "packed" with plants. The current problem starting when growth slowed not when the mass was reduced.
In other word the reduced mass was a result not a cause.

As to what's causing your GW. I don't know, I'm at a loss. I've no problem admitting that. How much NH3 is needed for GW to start ? I don't know. Is it a amount that is measurable by a test kit or lower ? Don't know. Is it possible for some reason you've always had some NH3, too little for the test kit to pick up, or indeed how accurate are these kits, but the plants could take it up and when growth slowed the NH3 got used elsewhere ? Maybe.

Here's a wild one I'll throw out. Maybe your injecting Co2 into your canister has had an effect on the bio colony as some have suggested thereby reducing the efficiency of ammonia conversion ? Maybe it's a combination of both.

I don't think it is that, but hell, nothing would surprise me anymore.

But I'm sure by this stage we are in agreement in one thing. The nutirents we dose don't have a role is this and that reduced growth does have a role ?




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LITTLE_FISH
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More of a slightly older brother, you know the one you were jealous of because he got the good looks, charm and girlfriends




I am more jealous of your tanks than anything else you mentioned, slightly older brother .

I hear your statement though, and it all makes sense. But as I said earlier, each theory – when looked at individually – makes some sense. Maybe I (and others) suffer from one common issue, which is that I tend to blame others when something doesn’t go right. Let me explain before you jump on my throat. I recently could not find my favorite planting tweezers (yes, I have 6 pairs and I am a nerd) and naturally started to interrogate the entire family of who might have taken them away. Well, 20min later I found them in a place where I put them and I had to say “I am sorry” to everybody. I currently focus my reasoning for algae on Iron, which I cannot see (measure), the same way NH3 has been mentioned (immeasurable amounts).

But I don’t know what else to focus on when I try to identify where any algae might come from. I have Nitrates, Potassium, and Phosphate, I feed Micros frequently, I have CO2 – although I have to confess that I haven’t measured any of these in ages. I have good plant growth, so – what else is out there?

Maybe it really is the constant replanting. BTW, a rather half-hearted attempt to reduce the current algae about 2 to 1 week ago showed no effect. I dosed within one week 50ml and twice 20ml of Flourish Excel, nothing happened. Maybe the Excel wonder from a few weeks ago works only once or not on this particular type of algae.

Ok, I got to get ready for work now.

Ingo


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tetratech
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Boy this feels like the good old days

We're talking about 2 different things. You talk about plant mass, I'm talking about plant growth. Yes and no, but remember I got GW about 2 weeks in, remember the willow branches, tetra dancing around the tank. I know you've been away a while doing God knows what, but you do remember that brother. At that time the plant growth was really good. So was it "mass" or "growth"

Here's a wild one I'll throw out. Maybe your injecting Co2 into your canister has had an effect on the bio colony as some have suggested thereby reducing the efficiency of ammonia conversion ? Maybe it's a combination of both.
I would have no problem admitting this, because as LF knows this was alittle bit of experimentation on my part, but of course I did have the GW with my hagen ladder and my tank did show some cloudiness before I started that. I've also been on APC alot trying to get more feedback and no one else has made that jump. On thing I'm not sure about, once the tank matures what % of the biofilter is actually in the filter (varies of course) but isn't there so much biofilter at this point in the substrate, plants, etc especially in a big tank that would make this point kinda mute.

It could very well be that when LF plays with this tank and I have reduced growth, mass the nh3 that is in the substrate and not necesarily moving around the water column plays a role in the algae.

BTW - Your right about Amano, he doesn't include many details, etc., but a few things he states out right is:
-He doesn't dose the water column initially
_He varies his doses by mass,growth
_He believes ferts will cause/feed algae growth

But with him it's always an easy fix, "Just throw 50 Yamato Shrimp in"



B

Last edited by tetratech at 08-Dec-2005 06:36

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NowherMan6
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Err, I know I'm kinda the outsider looking in on all this "knowledge" and "success with planted tanks" business, but just to add:

Has algae appearance ever coincided with reduced plant growth?


Actually, i've experienced the opposite of this. My plants started to really take off when my GW problems started. I don't know what to attribute that to, but it seems like the exception to the rule... in any case it holds true for BGA and staghorn IME


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Besides all the confusing things about algae growth…

Tetratech just added another one …

Who is B?

Bob, Bill, Ben, or who?

Ingo




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Gang,

Haven’t made an entry in almost 2 days, basically because there is nothing new to report. It’s all the same old stuff, plants and thread algae growing just nicely, fish are reproducing .

I will do my weekly water change today and I am sure the wife will be pleased that I will not spend another 6 hours on replanting stuff. A series of photos will follow the water change.

Ingo


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Do you really believe, from your experience, that excess macros or micros caused your problems?


Imbalance, or an excess(or lack) in ONE nutrient, Macro or Micro, can cause algae. My problem is that nobody wants to listen to the "I have a lot of PO4 in my tap." In response I get "The plants won't care." So I go and dose the suggested KH2PO4 and wind up with 5ppm of PO4 and some algae. After doing an emergency water change and not dosing the PO4, there has been no new algae growth. Also, I have not replanted anything for weeks, and plant growth had always been good.


Have you seen more problems when your nutrients were lower or higher?


I see problems at both ends of the spectrum.


As algae appearance ever coincided with reduced plant growth?


A simple yes would work here, but I've also seen algae with good plant growth.


Is what you are dosing sufficient to sustain or improve the growth you are seeing?


Yep, definitely sustain, not much to improve on.



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Matty,

Nobody listens to me either when I talk about my tab Phosphates. I, at an early stage of this tank, had values of 10ppm ]:|.

Besides the algae issues, I did my weekly water change, but as usual I will recap the events of this week on Sunday. Upfront I would like to show you some pictures of the Espei huddling together during the water change. The lower the water level the close the young ones stay with the adults.

Ingo

First shot, group in left tank corner. As an additional treat, find the Oto

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Next – group moving one way

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Last – group moving the other way

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try again...

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Yup NowherMan6,

You found the Oto.

And the prize is: you can look at my pictures as often as you like to .

Images shot with the Tamron

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Weekly updates for week 11,

Not much has happened during the last week. I experimented with the micro fertilizer Plantex Plus Iron and added only 2 doses during the week (normally 3). The reason behind this is that I somehow believe I am getting too much Iron in the water and that would be why I have thread algae. I know that some of the information available by the “old school” hobbyists is outdated, but Chuck Gadd mentions excess Iron as the reason for thread algae. Anyways – I haven’t seen a change, the algae grew as usual. I should actually not try to dose less often but rather less quantities 3 times a week (or half these and 6 times a week). By the way, plant growth is just lovely.

The only trimming that had to be performed this weekend was the removal of some Pygmy Chain Sword runners that were growing into the Glosso lawn.

Ingo

Here are some weekly pictures, first the tank over the weeks and then some details, some of which have questions.

The tank at setup – I cannot believe that I actually thought I had a large plant mass.

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Week 3 – The tank with lots of Nitrate sucking plants

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Week 7 – First attempts to scape the somewhat settled tank

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Week 10 – Last weekend, just as a comparison to this week to show the plant growth in 7 days

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Week 11 – Today

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The first detail picture is a collage of the Apon’s growth during the last 2 weeks. On the left you can barely (if at all) see them as they just have been planted. Sorry about the bad picture quality, but these are magnifications from full tank shots.

By the way, the Ech. Uruguayensis, which sits in front of the Reactor, is still not visible. It has developed a quite a few additional leaves but barely gained any height.
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A close-up of Rock Valley, maybe soon I have to rename it to Moss Valley ( time for a trim? )

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An even closer look at the Xmas Moss with the nice thread algae mixed in. Attempts to pull it out with a toothbrush failed as the moss came out with it as well. I will have to correct any nutrient imbalance to get rid of this stuff.

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Weekly summary pictures are on previous page, please view first.

The Amano Pearl Grass, which I think is an excellent and forgiving plant.

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My remaining bunch of Narrow Leaf Ludwigia, I am torn between really liking it and throwing it out. Time will tell.

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Last but not least, and as boring as it may seem, another Glosso close-up.

The question here is: Do I have to trim it at some point? I somehow never thought of that but it is now 4 layers deep in some areas.

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LF,
Very nice. Everything looks very healthy. Is the algae definitely "thread"? Many aquarists as you said do believe too much FE is the reason behind the thread algae, but it's probably not that simple, there are probably other factors as well.

Is the rotala m. on the left a cutting from the bigger group on the right? I don't remember, but how come you removed the rotala r.

The first observation I made about your tank is that their is very little hardscape showing, the plants have pretty much consumed it.



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tetratech,

Thanks for the comments .

Bensaf identified this algae a few days back as thread, I initially labeled it Staghorn, but I think he is right as it doesn’t branch within the strings themselves.

Yes, the Rotala Macandra on the left is cuttings from the group on the right. I replanted then before last weeks update. The Macandra grew very nicely during this week, although it had been uprooted during last weeks “messing” with the tank.

The first attempt of adding Rotala Rotundifolia ended up with introducing BGA to the tank that was attached to the plants . So I removed them. The next attempt was better, but the plant didn’t fit into the overall picture. It also grew tall fast and would have required too much trimming. Having had the plant in my 29G and seeing your 72G log I decided that I have no interest in constantly uprooting a plant and replanting the tops just to avoid the ragged legs.

Yeah, the hardscape is gone . The only pieces that are still visible is the tip of rock and the newly “planted” rock on the right side (last weeks addition). I assume the next thing you gonna tell me is that I need more hardscape, right ?

Ingo


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I assume the next thing you gonna tell me is that I need more hardscape, right ?
Well, that thought did cross my mind, but I think I had said from the beginning of our logs, we really were taking two completely different approaches. My tank still has the wisteria that I kept from my old 46 and the only original plants I ordered from aquariumplants.com when I setup the tank what about 3 months ago, although I am looking into purchasing something alittle different.



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Well, if you look through my log you will find out about how I always thin out my foreground every couple months. I take out the biggest chain swords, replant the small ones, then take the large ones to the lfs for $$. You could probably thin out the glosso, and take quite a bit back for 20 bucks, maybe more(well at my store you would end up getting about that much). You will probably see better, faster growth after you thin out the group. I noticed some of the leaves on the bottom had maybe a little algae on them? That's what tends to happen to my chain swords if I let them bunch up too much.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and keep the ludwiggia, it's a nice plant with a bit of different color you don't always see. And if you take out all your fast growing plants you might get some trouble.

Last edited by mattyboombatty at 11-Dec-2005 09:21



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Matty – Thanks for the advice on the Glosso and Ludwigia. I will contact my LFS to see if they have an interest in purchasing some of my Glosso. Yeah, I like the Ludwigia because of the different color and leaf shape. But at the same time it means that the bottom parts might look “rooty” for all the water roots this plant develops over time. Fortunately most of these parts are hidden behind rocks.

tetratech – What other plants do you have in mind?

I hear you on the missing hardscape . Finding tall (18+ inches) rocks that don’t have a broad base that would take up too much space is not an easy task. And switching to driftwood would mean that I have to go on the hunt for good wood again (not at the moment).

The hardscape also seems consumed because the rock coloration has changes. The longer they are in the tank the darker they get. Here are some pictures of rocks in my tank .

The first one displays what I mean with “changing coloration”. The rock in front is in the tank since the beginning, the one in the back since a week. It is the same rock type.

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Immediately to the left of Rock Valley sits this rock, between the Anubias and the Narrow Leaf Ludwigia.

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A smaller rock to the left of the Anubias from the last picture, almost in the foreground of the tank, with a taller one in the back. That one is still lighter as it has been in the tank since only 3 weeks.

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Last but not least, 2 rocks on the left of the tank. They are way hidden because of the Anubias and Sword plants. Note the Oto and yet again another blossom on the Anubias.

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How many otos do you have in that tank? So far we've only seen one, is it the same one? Every morning I play hunt the otos in the 25g, I have 4 in that tank and 2 in the 10g. They aren't really shy, just so busy eating they could care less about me. I just cleaned the gravel and had to move an ornamental castle they have been cleaning, all 4 of them were clinging to it as I moved it to and fro. Not one of them moved! The krib on the other hand was manuevering to get a piece of me! She seems to think I'm a snack.

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luvmykrib,

I don’t know it is always the same one .

Could be, maybe this one likes to be photographed. But I have 6. At some point I had 8 (I think), but 2 didn’t make it .

Yeah, I have to chase them away from the glass when I clean it. I think it is not so much a question of trust though. I believe it is the natural instinct of this fish on what to do when predators are around. They just don’t move and hope that their coloration will help them to blend into the environment. I usually don’t get to see all 6 of them and can only hope that they are still alive. The last time I saw them all was about 2 weeks ago.


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I have the same problem with my Otos. I should have 5 in my 40 but I haven't seen all 5 in about two weeks.

55G Planted tank thread
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Do you ever worry that controlling algae with excel will leave them with nothing to eat? Mine have nearly cleaned out the 10g, and the ones in the 25g have eaten so much algae that I am now worried it won't grow fast enough! Thus I am not dosing excel daily but every few days instead. They have not even looked at the algae flakes I give the krib. Would they eat wafers if they ran out of algae?

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luvmykrib,

I actually controlled algae with Excel only for one week until the rather dangerous black brush algae was defeated. A second, albeit half hearted, attempt about 2 weeks back to defeat thread algae failed. I either didn’t dose enough or this stuff simply doesn’t care about it.

In my tank Otos will always find something to eat. Loads of plants and glass surface assure that 6 Otos will never have an empty belly. I had some Otos in my smaller tanks and I was worried about their food source. I also did not have the impression that they were eating the algae wafers I provided. Generally, the tips I got were to a) feed the wafer after lights out and b) break up the wafer in smaller pieces and place them in a few spots within the tank. I did just that and in the morning they were mostly gone, but who knows who ate them (maybe the snails)?

Ingo


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NowherMan6
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Hey LF,

sorry to change the topic, but I have another question about your amazing breeding espei.

I know you spend a lot of time plant watching, but do you ever notice any specific behavior in your espei before they breed? Chasing behavior, dances etc? I know how to recognize the territory dance the males do, but I've noticed somethign new yesterday after a water change and I wodnered if you've noticed anything they do before breeding.


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NowherMan6,

Hm, let’s see. Here is the dance my males make: The swim side by side, head to tail, stretch out all the fins, wiggle slightly, and show their best colors. The loser usually leaves the dance floor .

Before and during breeding: The male Espei colors brighten up quite a bit. They become bright orange to red, with a purple hue. Then the males chase the females, usually one to two males (sometimes more) chase one female. Then the males fight until the loser leaves (but sometimes comes back) and most of the time the winner joins the female to lay and fertilize the eggs on the underside of leaves.

And then all that have witnessed this process join the breeders in eating the eggs, if they remember where they put them .

And that’s it, nothing else. What did you see?

Ingo


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NowherMan6
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Wow, that's interesting. I noticed the male wiggle dance months ago, at first I thought that was breeding but I figured out quickly that was the territory dance.

But yesterday I noticed that about 4 males were chasing the big female around, chasing back and forth, and every now and then two of the males would stop to do the wiggle dance, then rejoin the chase. I didn't see any egg dropping, but that seems to be the same thing as happens with yours, so i assume it's breeding behavior... now if only I could get them over that hump...

thanks, that's kind of exciting to hear. At least my little fish are becoming adults.


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NowherMan6,

Just keep your eyes open for any movement close to the substrate in a quiet corner of the tank

At least Espei, and I assume "normal" Harlies as well, have their eggs hatch within one day and fry is free swimming within 5 days, but really small.

And I don't think the male dancing is territory related - I think it is the "boss" issue, in other words the identification of the alpha male.

Ingo


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NowherMan6
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Thanks LF. I don't know if I'll ever see the result of any breeding, I'm afraid my yo-yos will take care of all that business.

Anyway, it's something to look out for. Cheers!


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Gang,

Sunday evening, over one day after my water change, I tested some parameters.

Following the water change I added:

1 tsp of KNO3
1/2 tsp of K2SO4
1/8 tsp of KH2PO4
2 tsp of baking soda
1/2 tsp of Seachem Equilibrium

Nothing else has been added, I neglected the Plantex Plus Iron micro fertilizer completely. Here are the measured values:

Ph of about 6.6
KH of about 4 DH
Concludes in a CO2 of about 30ppm – good
Nitrates of about 20ppm, way too much as it was just one day after water change
Phosphates of about 5ppm, way too much as well
Iron (with a power test kit that is dissolved in tank water on a test plate) initially showed 0.1ppm, which is good. But the test states that one has to wait 30 to 45 min to see the values for chelated iron, which turned out to be somewhere around 0.3ppm.

Why am I telling you all of this? Because I am still trying to find out where the thread algae is coming from. Chuck Gadd mentions high Iron levels as a reason, this would be in line with my readings if chelated iron counts. The phosphates seem to be a little high as well, maybe that is another reason. My high nitrates are most likely form the “slightly” increased number of fish.

Here is what I propose I will do:

- reduce KNO3 to ½ tsp every other day
- don’t add any KH2PO4 at all
- add a little more K2SO4 to keep the potassium up, maybe ¾ tsp
- reduce Plantex plus Iron (so far always ½ tsp) to ¼ tsp every other day. This might cause a low level of other micros, so I might switch to a different “provider”, maybe TMG, after all.

Any thoughts?

Ingo


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tetratech
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reduce KNO3 to ½ tsp every other day
don’t add any KH2PO4 at all

If Bensaf sees this you are toast ]:|

LF,
Have you tried the PPS system for your test kits. I would do that for the n03 and po4 before you reduce. Here's the thread that contains the link to setup the benchmarks. It was a big help to me understanding what the colors really meant in my kits.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showthread.php?t=4241

Last edited by tetratech at 13-Dec-2005 08:44

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Thanks tetratech,

I printed out the whole document and will read it on my way home. BTW, I strongly believe that the fertilator once contained Plantex to measure Iron. I wonder why they took it off?

Ingo


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I haven't read it all yet, but I did go through the articles titled "How to test for Nitrates and Phosphates" When I used that system to set color standards I realized my levels were lower than what I was interpreting them as from the color charts that come with the test.

BTW - Is the thread algae mostly on top of the javamoss covered rock or is it on the bottom as well and other low plants?

Last edited by tetratech at 13-Dec-2005 09:55

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The thread algae is very dense within the upper parts of the Xmas moss, almost forming a green cushion entangled so tightly that I cannot remove it.

Other parts of the moss have it as well, but not as dense. Also, other plants show threads on the upper and lower portions of the tank.

Do you have a hypothesis?

Ingo


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tetratech
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Do you have a hypothesis

Yes, light.

The top of that moss is probably one of the closest unchanging points to those 386watts of light. As I said before your tank is the same depth as mine and I have half the wattage. We all know that detris get's caught in moss, so it's not surprising that all the light and waste is creating a hotbed for algae. If I had that light on my tank it would be over 5wpg, but we all know wpg is a general rule. Bottom line is you have intense light on that moss that's very close to the source. I notice on my tank there is miminal algae, but I notice on the DW higher up the algae is definitely more concentrated.

Last edited by tetratech at 13-Dec-2005 15:14

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NowherMan6
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I can see how that makes sense. IME hornwort floating on the surface, if not moved around by the current, will quickly develop into a mat of green algae. I've seen this happen when no other algae appeared in the tank. I figured it was happening to the hornwort because of its proximity to the intense light. Myabe the same is happening with your moss...


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My guess was light as well. You have lots of light!
I used to leave the light on longer as a way of compensating for there being less of it and algae grew profusely at the top portions of the plants. Since using the timers and adding the otos there has been less algal growth all over.
You may need to go with 8-10 hours rather than 10-12 hrs of light. I read that somewhere but can't recall where right now. Check aqua-botanic, could've been there.

http://www.aquabotanic.com/begin.htm

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Hm, Ladies and Gentlemen,

I wonder if you are on to something.

But, I have 1/2 the lights on for only 4 hours. The rest of the 11 hours lighting period is on 192 Watts only, means less than 2wpg.

Or maybe lights play an imprortant role in my algae growth, but high Phosphate and Iron levels do as well?

Gee, one more thing to think about, darn lights .

Ingo




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We all know (I think) that light is the biggest factor in algae growth. I know you only have the 3.1 wpg on for 4 hours, but that is really intense. Remember 3.1 wpg on a 125g is alot differnt than 3.1 on a 20g.

And besides your an EI diehard.


LF - Have you thought about adding a herd of sae. Don't they eat the stuff?

Last edited by tetratech at 13-Dec-2005 19:09

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bensaf
 
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Don't understand why you'd want to reduce NO3 and PO4.

The problem with reducing the Plantex +Iron is you are not just reducing Iron but all the other micros too.

Definately a good idea to swap to TMG or something like it. I always add FE as a seperate component, easier to control. I only add FE for extra color, never found it neccessary as such. TMG always seemed to have enough to keep plants happy.

Pull out as much of the thread as you can, doesn't matter if some moss comes loose it'll grow back. Keep harrassing it.You may be able to stop new growth but it won't kill what's already there.

Notsure light is a factor here. I've seen thread grow in moss in the deepest darkest most shaded part of a tank.

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Last edited by bensaf at 13-Dec-2005 20:38

Last edited by bensaf at 13-Dec-2005 20:39


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LITTLE_FISH
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Yeah,

That was one of the reasons I mentioned that I might switch to another micro fertilizer, less dosing of plantex concludes in less other goodies.

BTW, the moss is not the closest to the top of the tank, Rotala Macandra, Narrow Leaf Ludwigia, Crypt Retrospiralis, and the spray bar are closer.

I will try to remove the stuff on the weekend; I probably will have to trim the moss in order to get it out.

Ingo

Here is another picture of it, on top of the rock area:

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On a different note, the two remaining Pearls are doing fine in the 20G, but the male worries me a bit. Very very territorial. He now also chases the Platies once in a while and rarely tolerates the female close to him. Here is a picture of both together:

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I thought Tom Barr said he dosed a ton of Fe and made no difference on algae. Am I wrong?

Isn't there just too many variables to really understand exactly what is causing your thread algae. Maybe all those espei are pooping in the moss and creating a nice nh3 soap heated by that light. Have you tested nh3 with all those babies in there. I don't know if you fish load is considered heavy, but it could be. I wonder if you could test the water right inside the top of that moss and then test again in the open area and see if there is any nh3 differences. I have to say I started dosing more no3, po4 and FE and I don't see any new or add'l algae growth.

Fish load, plant mass/growth, and all that light. 386 watts right on top of that moss.

BTW - That's a beautiful "graceful" picture







Last edited by tetratech at 14-Dec-2005 05:49

Last edited by tetratech at 14-Dec-2005 06:21

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tetratech,

First of all thank you for the comment on the picture .

I guess I could try to get water from within the moss area. I just have to make sure that my fingers don’t touch the top of the test tube as this would create wrong readings for sure.

About the too much of something causing issues, well – I guess that is up for debate .

Ingo


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LF, Do you have one of those little plastic tubes that suck the water in. It comes with some test kits. You squeeze it and the water gets sucked in.



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LITTLE_FISH
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Yup,

I got that, I will have to use it twice as it has only a capacity of 3ml. Didn't come with my test tubes but had the feeling they would come handy one day so I ordered a bunch from Greg Watson while I bought my Ferts.

Thanks tetratech, I would have forgotten about them

Ingo


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Worth a try, I don't even know if it's measurable, but you never know.

I think it's tough to tinker with this and tinker with that. There's always another reaction. The more I read and understand the more I think it's pretty simple.

If it's true that nh3/nh4 causes most algae from a fert side. (which I think I'm in that camp now) then...

Plants eat nh3, fish produce nh3. The most successful tanks are one's with very little fish and lots of plants, what a big surprise. But most aquarists don't do this, they put more fish in a given space then there would be in nature.

So bascially more plants, more wiggle room for error and to stay algae free. Less plants, more fish, less wiggle room. Then we start to change fert dosing, etc. The high light puts the algae production into hyperdrive and the rest is history. If someone wants to prove me in correct, so be it.

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tetratech,

I think we once established that NH3 is preferred by plants over NO3, right?

This would explain why I have rather high levels of NO3 albeit I reduced the amount added. The additional, hm, 100 fish produce a lot of NH3 and plants will use it first. That leaves the NO3 up for grabs in the tank. And this is why I intend to dose even less of it.

So, if the NH3 causes the algae then I should dose even less NO3, or none at all, right? I guess I should emasure Ammonia, although all fish are doing fine.

Ingo


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tetratech
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I think the plants need both, the algae we know can do very well on just the nh3, but your plants should still be sucking up all the no3. I bet there is very little measurable nh3 in your water, but might be enough with all that light. I still think 386 watts on a 21" deep tank is alot regardless of how long it is.

I'm not suggesting your light isn't good, just that you probably need even more plant mass and I don't know if you could maintain that moss so high up in the water column where the light is so intense.






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Wouldn't trace amounts of ammonia be consumed by bacteria in the filter/ gravelbed before plants have a chance to use it?

I assume the same principle applies here as it does with nitrates and the like - that microscopic organisms (in this case good bacteria) can use these things in smaller amounts, and thus more quickly than higher organisms like plants...

if this is the case then plants need to get that N from somewhere, and dosing nitrates is safer for fish than dosing ammonia...


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The more I read and understand the more I think it's pretty simple.



If it's true that nh3/nh4 causes most algae from a fert side. (which I think I'm in that camp now)



Plants eat nh3, fish produce nh3. The most successful tanks are one's with very little fish and lots of plants, what a big surprise. But most aquarists don't do this, they put more fish in a given space then there would be in nature.



basically more plants, more wiggle room for error and to stay algae free. Less plants, more fish, less wiggle room.



I'm so proud of my ever so slightly younger brother. Sorry, I'm filling up with tears here

Tetras right, it is deceptively simple. We as hobyists tend to over complicate it. Pseudo science is a big problem in this hobby.
There are a number of different methods that can work, all have remarkably similar princicples. Nutrient suuply is the key for all, they just differ in how they deliver them.
But , yep, lot's of plants with a low/moderate fish load and moderate lighting (2-3 wpg of PC/T5) is pretty much the simplest way, gives the most wiggle room by far.

Ever seen a big fish in an Amano tank ? Even his famous 2,000 or whaver gallon tank is just housing small tetras. All those gorgeous tanks you see on the net, you hardly ever see much fish.

One thing I'd change if I was starting over is my fish stocking. Definately fewer in total quantity and number of species. This is also for aesthetic reasons, it simply looks better. Same for plants, smaller number of species but bigger groupings.

Yes I'm trying desperately to get my collectoritis under control.


I made a point before somewhere else that one of the reasons people have so many problems with planted tanks is their fundamental approach. Not many would think of starting a reef tank, for example, without doing a lot of research and making sure they had all the appropriate equipment. Mainly due to the expenses involved in purchasing marine fish and corals. Lot's of people approach their first planted tank by picking up a couple of bad quality plants from an LFS and the ubiquitous bottle of "plant food". It never works. People end up thinking planted tanks are a whole lot more difficult then they actually are. Lot's of old crap on the net doesn't help.

How many times have we seen folks say they want to start a planted tank but they'll add the plants first and up the lighting later, or they have the lighting now and add the plants bit by bit as the money becomes available. Always makes me groan, I can see the dying plants/alagae problem posts coming.

It is simple, very simple, a routine that takes a few minutes a week takes care of most everything. It's the intial approach and start up that screws most people over.Not enough people appraoch the way Ingo and tetra did. They had their problems, but got past them relatively quickly. What they learned from that will help on the next tank they set up and they'll have fewer problems.

Algae panic attacks and tinkering cause a lot of problems. Patience, consistency and stability will solve most problems as well as good housekeeping, cleaning the glass,filters and equipment regularly. As tetra said tinkering usually causes a chain reaction, pretty soon you are not sure what caused what.

Think you have an issue ? Don't stop adding a particular nutrient. Reduce it, but only one at any given time, watch things to see if there's a reaction, good or bad, adjust accordingly.Keep notes. This takes 2-3 weeks but at least you always know where you are and you get a definitive answer. If not that nutrient move on to the next one on your list of suspects. Always start by checking Co2 and No3 first.

Example, LF you have thread algae so you reduce No3, Po4 and micros. So lets say the algae dissapears or even gets worse. Are you any the wiser? Not really because you have no idea which of the nutrients you reduced was the problems, if there's a chain reaction further down the line, you don't which nutrient is the problem. Could be the No3, the Po4, the FE ?

A better approach would be to reduce your prime suspect, the FE, only. Remove as much algae as you can first. Watch carefully, any new algae showing up, is it growing faster or slower, watch the plants for yellowing etc.Adjust accordingly. This will rell you what you need to know about FE and what level your tank can handle.If the FE levels don't make a difference, well at least it crossed off the list of suspects and you move on.

Changes should be gradual. It's slow but it works in the long term.

I don't know any of this, I'm not a plant biologist or any such thing. I can only share what I've observed and learned through the hundreds of dumbass mistakes I've made in my time (and not just with plants or tanks).

I'll stop rambling now.



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Bensaf,

What a lovely and long ode to the patience .

I certainly agree with you on the time it takes for one small change to show results. Also, I agree that multiple changes at the same time will, even when the results are good, not tell me which one of the changes causes what in the tank.

But :

Although I a messing with 3 values (N,P, FE) at the same time, I believe that only one of them is critical and should have an influence in my tank.

- I currently have 20ppm NO3 one day after a 50% water change. Can we conclude that based on EI my dosing (at current fish stock levels) is too high? By EI standards and healthy uptake, I should have 20ppm maybe at the end of the week as this would be the level of build-up, but not initially. If so, reducing the amount added should not cause anything to change, except if I would add too little.

- The same counts for P. I have 5ppm of P in my tank. If P is not the culprit for algae creation then lowering this value to about 2ppm should again have no effect. I for sure do not believe that 5ppm has any advantages. So, I reduce the amount added to adjust to 2ppm. This, by the way, will probably mean that I should not add any in the first few days after a water change (2ppm tab) but substitute later during the week when parts have been used up.

- The iron - this is the one that should show signs, either for the better or the worse. This is also my weak point because, as we mentioned before, my iron addition is coupled with all other micros and as such could show side effects not directly cause by lesser iron itself. I really have to switch to TMG, guess I will order it today .

Ingo


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Well thank you, Bensaf! between all your good advice and doing some of my own due diligence things started to click.
Fundamentally I think I understand things on a bigger and similiar level, but now to execute it.

One thing I'd change if I was starting over is my fish stocking. Definately fewer in total quantity and number of species. This is also for aesthetic reasons, it simply looks better. Same for plants, smaller number of species but bigger groupings.
Wow, you sound alittle like me. Less species all the way around. Some of the most pleasing images I see some times are tanks with 2 species of plants and 1 species of fish (not counting otos and shrimp) and strategically placed hardscape. And as appealing as that tank might look, eventually you will get bored and change it.

It really depends where you are in the hobby and what hobby your is. There's really three hobbies here: fish, plants, scaping.



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How many times have we seen folks say they want to start a planted tank but they'll add the plants first and up the lighting later, or they have the lighting now and add the plants bit by bit as the money becomes available. Always makes me groan, I can see the dying plants/alagae problem posts coming.



::gulp::

Those were the days...

We as hobyists tend to over complicate it. Pseudo science is a big problem in this hobby.


Generally I think you're right about this and I agree with what i think you're getting at, but just to add something: I agree that in the overall scheme of things we as aquarists/ aquascapers/ espei breeders/ destroyers of protists/ etc. should allow ourselves to embrace the overall simplicity of keeping our planted tanks successful. Bensaf and plantbrain spelled out just how simple it can be in several posts in this thread and others, and we sometimes overanalyze and make the experience more complicated than it need be. However, I would argue that in a lot of ways overanalyzing is part of the fun of it all. Trying to understand and experimenting is what keeps it fresh. As tetra pointed out, it's what you want out of the hobby that will drive how you approach it. For example, if your goal is just to have a planted tnak that's nice to look at, period, then by all means make it as simple as possible for yourself and dont think too much about it. Focus on results and make it that much easier. For others, such as myself, playing around and figuring things out (with a little guidance ) is what it's all about. For me, anyway, that's what makes it a hobby, and it's part of what keeps me interested. That's nto to say I DON'T want a nice looking tank, or that I'm willing to put up with perpetual iffy results because we all want a tank that's nice to look at in the end. Maybe someday I'll get fed up with the playing around and all, but for now I'm a young buck and...well.. pass the test kits, I'm goin' in!


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Nowher you are definitely somewher what that statement

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Well you 2,

Sounds good

Change of subject: I tested yesterday evening the water in the moss - no detectable Ammonia.

Also, I observed in the last two days (evenings) that the adult Espei take a group of about 10 to 15 younger ones out for a tour through the tank. It always begins about 30 min after feeding. The group forms and swims from left to right and back again. Occasionally they stop to take an extra spin around some plants or the Reactor and once in a while some get lost and have to wait until the rest swims by again. It is really cool.

Ingo


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The group forms and swims from left to right and back again. Occasionally they stop to take an extra spin around some plants or the Reactor and once in a while some get lost and have to wait until the rest swims by again. It is really cool.

Nice that you appreciate that, I certaintly do. I'm still torn on which way to go with a big school, On one hand the pencils look so solid, but the group of 5 don't really school that often, maybe 20 would, the rummys are also very solid and are great schoolers, but they occupy a low strata and they kinda blend in. I have 10 of 21 cardinals left, so I'm hesistant to spend about $4 a fish (after deaths) to establish a school that I know I will find remains here and there. although I haven't introduced any since I got my UV. I could move my golds from my 12g, but they'll probably die in my 72 :%)



Last edited by tetratech at 15-Dec-2005 12:48

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bensaf
 
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Well aren't we the loving sweet family today ? Kind of like the planted forum Brady Bunch [img src='/images/forums/halo.gif' border=0]

Who wants to be Marcia ?

Yeah, people are into this aspect of the hooby for many different reasons. Some are into the fish and the plants are just a background and water quality aide. Some are into the plants and the fish are just accessories. Some like the scaping , artistic end and others the pure science. It's all good, whatever rocks your boat.

I guess for most of us it's a mixture of all of the above.

Don't know about you, but I never had a burning ambition to build a planted tank. Kind of fell into it (the hobby not the tank ). The wife wanted one ( a decision she has come to regret a hundred times over). I hated that purple graveled death trap. Decided if that was going to be in our home I'd try to make it look good. Damn plants kept dying. Wife wanted to get rid of it , I wanted to get rid of it. But my natural contrariness preventing me from dumping it until I had figured out how to whip those plants into shape. And so it began.

As I progressed and learned more the 'scaping became more of a focus.

I've always like the simplicity. But there were so many plants I wanted to try to grow, I smoke therefore I have zero willpower, so there were always a lot of plants in my tanks.

That's changed now because over the years I've grown pretty much them all. I know the ones I like, I know the shapes and growth patterns, I know what to put where, I know what are a PITA and which are easy. So the science and desire to collect fades and the scaping and arranging becomes more interesting.

Science is factual, so it becomes easy, it's a matter of simply learning and memorising. I find the "artistic" side more challenging and interesting. It's subjective, there's is no right or wrong answer, it's not something you can learn from a book, it's personal, like all art it reflects something of the spirit (or lack thereof) of the creator. Combine this subjective stuff with the practicalities of having to know a plant in order to place it in the proper location, knowing which ones to use and knowing how to keep them looking healthy, and you have a pretty fascinating hobby.

I've found the simple tanks more challenging. It's not so easy to create something interesting and insipring with a small limited amount of plants. It's not difficult to make a big bouquet of flowers look nice, trying doing the same thing with a handful of daisies and a shrub.

Schooling fish ! Tetra, I'd definately keep the pencils. The rummies, I agree, while real tight schoolers and nice fish, can be a bit monotonous watching them go back and forth across the front bottom of the tank day in day out.The size and shape is too similar to the pencils also. Cardinals and Neons I always found a bit ho-hum, they just seem to sit there. I really like the look of Lemons, I've seen a lot of them here, those are tight fish, they school like they are attached by string. The size is nice and the more compressed shape would a nice contrast to the others.
Green Fire Tetras are stunners when they are in a good tank, look like washed out Neon wannabes in LFS tanks,but when they mature are real knockouts.

Last edited by bensaf at 15-Dec-2005 20:50


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NowherMan6
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Well aren't we the loving sweet family today ? Kind of like the planted forum Brady Bunch


Golly, does everyone get so crabby when they get old?


p.s. I'll be Peter...or Bobby... or whoever's the guy that has that TV show with that model from the other TV show...


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Well Bensaf,

If we are the Brady Bunch then you are the Nanny, forgot the name though, the one who has control over almost all situations but occasionally messes things up .

As to “how did we get into planted tanks?” – It never struck my mind not to have a planted tank. Somehow fake decorations etc. never occurred to me as an option. I don’t know why, it just was that way.

As to my tank itself – Well, the threads are not lessening, actually they are multiplying. And yes, I haven’t dosed anything since last Saturday, but don’t yell at me. I needed to give it a try. Tonight (night before water change) I will measure my values again and see what the readings are compared to last Sunday.

I also ordered 5 liters of TMG from Big Al’s, that should last a few weeks . Did anybody read on the Tropica web site that soft water tanks need only half the dosage? I don’t seem to have read anything about this here yet.

Ingo


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bensaf
 
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anybody read on the Tropica web site that soft water tanks need only half the dosage? I don’t seem to have read anything about this here yet.


If you check the bottle it also says you can increase the dosage by 50% in a well run tank.So it balances out.They give themselves wiggle room.

Go with the full dose. It's good stuff.


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

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If we are the Brady Bunch then you are the Nanny
That would be Alice.

Bensaf is Alice!

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If we are the Brady Bunch then you are the Nanny


Well he does have that dress....



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hmm.........A hit man in an Alice dress.........I don't know if we should go there!

LF,
I think that it is very cool that you started out the right way with live stuff. I started out with all sorts of fake stuff when I was younger. I have gradualy moved away from it because it just doesn't do much for me. You put it there and it never changes. Although some of the new fake plants actually look almost nice compared to the stuff I used to have.

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NowherMan6
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Well he does have that dress....





Wingsdlc, I started out the same way. I still have my large plastic asian ambulia and silk sword plants in a box in my closet, and there they will stay. I remember getting really peaved when brown algae started growing on all my plants. I thought it was abnormal... as i said earlier, ahhh, the good ol' days



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Well, I can see already many many posts where we identify who is which Brady

I guess from an experience level I should be the youngest of the boys (don’t know his name either).

You guys and gals can pick one of the others

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If only because we share similar hair styles...



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[/font]


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Oh Man!!!!

Don't you guys have to work??

Any ways if we are going to do this we need to do it right. Don't you guys remember the stuff a bit back about slightly older and younger brothers?

I will take clams on one of the girls being what hair I do have is blonde!

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Ok then Wingsdlc, here you go:

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Wingsdlc
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Thanks Little Fish! Not going to anwser about the have to work thing??

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Wow you guys really have way too much time on your hands O.o

Ingo seems you started in a similar fashion as I. fake ornaments just really weren't of interest when you could have the real things.

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Hm, lunch break maybe ?

I tend to relax from my job by taking short breaks once in a while and peruse the fish profiles.

Ingo

Megil: It wasn't so much that fake plants were not of interest, it literally didn't occur to me that this was an option. God knows how my tank would look like today if I would have thought about it before I started.

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 16-Dec-2005 11:38


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Let be glad you didn't then They really shouldn't be an option O.o

You guys make one demented family BTW, *whistles*



Last edited by Megil Tel'Zeke at 16-Dec-2005 11:44[/font]

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TGIF:



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Oh man...





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After almost 800 posts these are the things that happen. I hope we don't crash the site it will be known as the Brady Syndrome.

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That is great! Can you put a gun in bensaf's hands? After all he is a hit man.

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There are no hands to add guns too Wingsdlc

Tetra. just a wee bit to much time on your hands



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Gang,

I did my water testing tonight. Just to refresh your memories (after all the Brady Bunch stuff ) I only dosed macros once right after the water change on Saturday and no micros at all.

Growth during the week has been strong, the duck weed on the surface has multiplied like mad. I will post a picture in a few minutes, right after I take it. There is more Algae and it occupies various plants in the tank, but nowhere as dense as on the moss. Here are the measuring results, first last week followed by this week (5 days between measuring):

Ph: 6.6 - 6.6
KH: 4 DH – 4 DH
CO2: 30ppm – 30ppm
Nitrates: about 20ppm – almost 20ppm, there is a slight difference in color, but not much
Phosphates: about 5ppm – almost 5ppm, there is a slight difference in color, but not much
Iron: Both times 0.1ppm and after 30 min about 0.3ppm

Grrrrrrrrrrrrr


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Well, the photo came out crappy, but I guess you will get the point of strong growth.

First last weeks picture:

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And now this week. Just look at the Rotala Macandra on the left and right, the Apons in the left back, the Ludwigia "bush", and so forth, even the Crypt Retrospiralis has now leaves that are way over 25" long.

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Looks nice LF

So your plants are growing, pearling, smiling, etc. and according to your tests barely any of the ferts are being used and inspite of this growth and density you have more algae which should be pushed out of it's niche by all those smiling plants.

That's a tough one, sorry I can't help you!

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No but seriously, IMO light is still a major trigger here. On one hand, the light, ferts, co2 extra is giving you really robust growth, but at the same time that light with all those little fishes is creating a cocktail that the algae are sucking down. I know, I know you measured nh3 and there is none, but it doesn't mean there's not enough in there for the algae. As we talked previously it is a fact the a heavy fish load makes a good balance harder to find. My tank's GW I believe is based more on mass/growth, when my plants were peaking and I was floating alot of plants and using the willow branches my tank did get clear, it got cloudy again (as Bensaf pointed out) when that growth/mass was gone. Now I've been dosing more than ever and I do not see any increase in algae and my rotala is making a major recovery and I'm starting to see something with the stargrass (a real head case plant)

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What The hell of I started. Even Matty pops up out of nowhere (which came as quite the shock to nowherman) to bring up the "dress".....dammit IT WAS A SARONG.

I'm way to young to be Alice.

Kinda thought tetra would have gone for the little girl with the bangs. I can see him in bangs for some reason

Changed my mind, you folks are more like the Manson family then the Brady Bunch.

I'd be wary of the test kits, that much growth simply has to have led to a reduction in levels.

BTW the tank is looking real good. I like the grassy look.
Mainly, for really the first time it has a very cohesive flowing look. It looks like one tank now. The eye can move from one side to the other without any jars or jolts.

I'd love to see some driftwood in there though. That would really take it to the next level.


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IT WAS A SARONG.
Sure whatever you say Bensaf.

I can see him in bangs for some reason
It was a toss up!

I'd love to see some driftwood in there though
My thoughts exactly or another boulder breaking up that big mass left center.

Another thing I would do would trim the group leftcenter and move the rotala m. right center into the grouping. It distracts in the corners and makes it very obvious that your hiding equipment, but at the same time it's a beautful plant so it draws your attention to the equipment.

Last edited by tetratech at 16-Dec-2005 20:00

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LF,

Your growth rate is really wild. The plants in my tank are growing well but nothing like what you have going on. Remember though that I have 3.25 WPG, dosing Excel, and running diy Co2. Thats it. I have some algae but nothing bad. Just the hard green stuff on the glass. I am probably going to start dosing some green stump remover but I am going to wait until after Christmas. It kind of scares me because thngs are going fine and I am not so sure I want to mess with it. I also don't want to deal with the over grown issue.

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Thanks all for the input.

Yeah, I don’t understand it either. The only explanations I have for the little changes in N and P are:

N is provided in form of ammonia (preferred by plants over NO3) from the 100 fish
P is used only in small quantities and that is why the kit can’t change colors as dramatic. I might very well have used up 1 to 2 ppm, but they are very close in color when in the 5ppm range.
As for the Iron, I am sure my kit sucks .

Today, I will have to do some major trimming again. The rotala on the right is breaking the surface, the moss needs to be cut off to get all the thread mass out, the ludwigia is growing too tall and shades it bottom parts completely, the pearl grass is very tall as well (will cut this and somehow try to create a larger group of it).

And I will remove about 70% of water to reset values. Then I will wait a little and do the testing yet again (maybe not iron though).

Ingo


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Another thought. With all those fish, how many espei now about (100) there's obviously poop, but on the opposite end you must be feeding enough. And if I read you correct your kinda a softy with the fish, so you probably make sure they all get some. So between the fish food, po4 additions you getting those numbers. Also your probably not doing much gravel vac these days. Again is it possible the substrate is leaching no3 and po4 into the water column. Just ideas.

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]:|]:|]:|]:|]:|

NOT a good day.

First off – I don’t like the way the tank looks now at all. I trimmed the Ludwigia and the Moss, tons of Moss. Somehow there is no balance in the tank anymore at all. Pictures will follow in a while.

Then I did a 70% water change and while I started to refill my wife decided to invite the neighbors to look at the tank. When I was almost done I realized that the heaters were on (they are supposed to shut off when the water falls too low) and the water temp was just above 70F. About 10 min after the tank was filled I heard this big cracking sound. The heater glass broke right in half.  !!!!

Raced of to the store, all they had was 200W Stealth, bought 2 for $80, raced home and put them in. Now I have 2x200W on the left and 1x300W on the right. I hope this works.

Ingo

PS: I hope the fish don't get Ich now.

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Och! Sorry to hear about that. Ya, I have the visi-therm stealth and I've never had a problem but I guess I will shut off when changing the water. You know they do sell inline heaters (Hydor) and I heard they were good. I have just one 250w heater on my tank and it heats the water fine.

and the water temp was just above 70F.
Why was the temp so low. Don't you match tank temp during WC?

Last edited by tetratech at 17-Dec-2005 14:21

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Thanks tetratech,

I guess it will take a few hours until the tank is heated back to the normal 76F. This tank is driving me crazy .

Anyways, here is the tank now:

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EDIT: yeah tetratech, I usually check with my hand (normally I am off only by 1 degree plus minus). But as I said, the wife got a whole family to come over and watch the tank while I refilled it, with 2 small kids. I forgot to check if the temp was ok after the water ran for a while as I had to make sure nobody did something stupid ]:|.

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 17-Dec-2005 14:24
[/font]


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But as I said, the wife got a whole family to come over and watch the tank while I refilled it, with 2 small kids. I forgot to check if the temp was ok after the water ran for a while as I had to make sure nobody did something stupid

Believe me, I could definitely relate. I always get nervous the kids are going to fool around in the kitchen and crack my tank. I actually stick a thermoter in the sink so when I'm adjusting temp with the python it shows me what the water temp is and then I fill.




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I prefer these junglesque arrangements to other, heavily pruned, straight edged aquascapes. VERY nice.
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Thanks Cup

I appreciate it.

“junglesque” – I will have to remember that. Yeah, that was the style I was going for all the way .

I have to admit that it doesn’t look as bad as I may have made it sound before I posted the picture. I added a small powerhead (Rio 90) to the left back as the way the Apons and the Crypt Retro were flowing was just awful after the trimming of the big Ludwigia bush. Now they seem to flow nicer (in my opinion).

I wonder if I soon should try to split the Crypt and how I would go about this. Probably dig it out and take any potential baby plant off and plant it separately, right?

Ingo


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Weekly Update – Week 12

Well, this was a week of experimenting with my fertilizers. Although I have dosed K, N, and P only once and micros not at all my readable values on the test kits barely showed a change. Ideas of how this can be are manifold, but none is conclusive. Maybe it has to do with the increased fish load and amount of food I provide (tetratech’s last idea) and I should try to monitor if it all gets eaten soon enough. I am certain that I feed too much (only once a day though) as I want to make sure that the tiny ones at the bottom get their share too.

I also managed to have a heater blow out after a 70% water change. This sucker was supposed to shut off when the water level falls (I think) but I guess it didn’t; and a major distraction led to me filling the tank with only 70F warm water. All it took was 10 more minutes and bang – the glass cracked in half.

Currently my worries are concerning future fertilizer dosages, if the trimming this weekend will limit the algae in the tank, if my fish will show any damage from the temperature difference (like Ich), and if I should try another round of Excel treatment to further limit the algae (the last half-hearted one did not succeed). So plenty to keep at least my brain busy .

The pictures will be of week 0, 3, 6, 9, and yesterday – week 12.

I will also tag on a few detail shots and a section regarding the life of the Espei .

Ingo

Week 0 – how it all started

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Week 3 – the “weed” phase

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Week 6 – scaping attempts begin

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Week 9 – scape is taking more shape

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Week 12 – yesterday – major removal of moss and trimming (cutting tops and removing bottoms) of ludwigia. Also trimmed the rotala. The Apons have grown pretty much to the surface now , the sword uruguayensis doesn’t do much and is still not visible in pictures (is in front of reactor)

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Now some detail shots:

First up some nice long algae threads lower in the tank on the sags. This kind is settled by now in various places, low and high.

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A nice shot of the crypt – pearl grass – apon group, with some of the trimmed ludwigia on the right

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Another glosso shot, taken because of the vertical growth that appears in places with limited light. Almost like a regular stem plant.

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Uh, now some days in the life of the Espei:

This is one that is maybe 2 weeks old. Pretty much the whole fish is see-through and the tiny yellow and black spot are developing.

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And here is one that is approximately 4 weeks old. The markings become clearer, in particular the black spot.

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Now this one is a juvenile of about 7 weeks. The body shape is pretty much that of an adult now, the coloration stretches the complete section as in adults, but is a rather bright yellow.

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Here we have a juvenile that is old enough to join the adults in the school, at least for some time during the day. I guess the age is about 10 weeks. The coloration has now turned more to the characteristic orange-yellow that is seen in adult females.

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Last but not least here is a male adult in “breeding” colors. He is truly red and when seen in the tank he sometimes has even a tint of purple to it.

[font color="#C00000"]Make sure that you see the pictures on the previous page showing younger Espei [/font]

Ingo

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May I say it's very pretty thread algae. You know there are some setups I've seen that are put together just showing algae. Sometimes it's attractive. I would definitely do the calibration. I think for the most part test kits usually work, but there's no benchmark for the color. You need to set that and test off of that. It will be interesting to see if your fert adjustments do anything, but the whole idea of EI is that you don't have to worry about fine-tuning you could dose in excess and than it's removed via WC. You are doing 50% weekly. How many fish are really in the tank? My vote is still for high fish load, high light ---- Algae!! 3 wpg on a 125 is alot of light. You could try reduced the peak period to like 2 hours and see what affect it has.

BTW - On the Rotala M. are you ditching the bottoms and replanting tops only?



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tetratech,

Thanks for the compliment on the beauty of my algae

It took me quite a while until I had the tank parameters correct so it grows horizontally like your Wisteria

I have reduced the light last week to 3 hours, but didn’t find this worth mentioning. So out of only 11 hours lighting period 8 are on slightly over 1.5wpg.

Even EI desires a max of NO3 of 20ppm and the default values for adding it are tuned to no fish and food additions. So it makes only sense that you have to adjust the values when “other” factors are coming into play.

The Rotala – once in a while I replant tops while other times I just cut off tops and let the bottoms in the substrate.

Ingo


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Uh, I forgot to add a close-up of the trimmed Rock Valley.

Here it is at rush hour

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Ok,

So I did what I actually wanted to do yesterday, measuring my tank parameters. I limited it to N and P.

Remember, I did a 70% water change and before that had about 20ppm N and close to 5ppm of P. My tab is (by last measure from quite a while ago) around 2 ppm of P. I haven’t added any ferts (except 1/2 a tsp of Seachem Equilibrium) to the tank after the water change and fed the fish once since then.

N is around 10ppm and P maybe 3ppm (hard to tell, but closer in color to 2 than 5). Both values make somewhat sense, in particular the P. The N seems a little high, but measuring steps of 5 – 10 -20 leave room for color mistakes. Pretty much what I expected then.

So I will dose the following macros today:

EDIT: Value correction
KNO3 – 1/2tsp
Potassium Sulfate– 1/4tsp
P – nada

For the micros I will wait until tomorrow and hope my TMG will arrive as I have not much faith in Plantex anymore (for no particular reason, but I cannot even find a table or such anymore where I could check how much I am supposed to add – I thought I got the initial value of ½ a tsp from APCs fertilator, but it is not there anymore).

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 18-Dec-2005 17:44


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Why not go back to source for Plantex dosing reccommendation.

http://www.gregwatson.com/HowToDosePlantex.htm

I honestly don't think that's the issue, but I don't know for sure and I guess it's good to eliminate it if that's the case. I've been dosing now 10ml Flourish every other day along with 5ml Flourish trace and I have not seen any increase in algae even with my limited mass.

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tetratech,

thanks for the link to the Greg Watson page. I think I am not smart enough to figure out what he is advertising. Here are a few things I don’t understand:

- First off this is a calculation for Plantex CSM+B, I have the one with 10% of Iron (this one is 7)
- The he says to mix 1 tablespoon of it AND 1 tablespoon of Magnesium Sulfate with 0.5 liters of water. I never added any Magnesium besides what is in my Seachem Equilibrium, am I supposed to?
- Then he says you could also mix 1 teaspoon with 1/6 liters (=167ml) of water. In this calculation he doesn’t include Magnesium, why?
- Then he links to the Krib for dosing instructions. We know it is an “old” site, but this statement falls right in line with what I thought – “Dosing just a little bit too much PMDD can lead to a nutrient excess that will give unwanted algae a foothold”. That was before EI, so I will keep this info as a sidenote . Then the Krib moves on and suggests 1/12ml per 10G, which would mean 120G = 1ml per day to get started. For fully functioning tanks they suggest to double the dose, so 2ml per day. If I fertilize 6 days a week that would be 12ml per week
- Then he says you can dose about 1.25 times the Flourish amount. Flourish suggests to use 5ml for 60G (once or) twice a week, so that would be 10ml for 120G and 20ml per week. Now this value times 1.25 gives me 25ml.
- So there is a 50% difference between Krib and Seachem dosing suggestions. Let’s assume the higher value is good, means I would dose 25ml of solution per week.


Now here comes the interesting part (in case you found the other parts boring). 25ml out of a 167ml solution (containing 1tsp of Plantex CSM+B) are approximately 15% of the solution, or in other words 0.15tsp of Plantex CSM+B. I have been dosing 1.5tsp per week for the first 11 weeks of the tanks existence, 10 times the amount per week ]:|]:|]:|

This would explain why I have great problems dissolving my bi-daily micro ferts in even ½ a gallon of water.

Do I misinterpret the Greg Watson statement?
Do I have errors in my calculation?
What am I not getting?
Should I also feed extra Magnesium Sulfate?

ANY HELP IS GREATLY APPRECIATED IN SOLVING MY MATH CONFUSION.

Ingo


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Holy moly, and here I thought the whole purpose of EI was to not have to worry so much about this stuff...


EDIT: great pics by the way, very nice timeline of fry growth

Last edited by NowherMan6 at 19-Dec-2005 09:20


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NowherMan6,

I guess the whole EI thingy is geared more towards the macros. It seems one is pretty much on their own when caculating micros .

Ingo

Anyone have an answer for me?


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Still nobody able to help me with the questions 3 posts back?

Come on tetratech, at least you can verify that I interpreted the Greg Watson statement right

Ingo


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Sorry LF, I'm under the gun on a project and I've only been able to post a few quick messages here and there.

I'll probably read your post thru tomorrow and see how I interpret it.

I still say someone should come up with a formula for mass x growth x waste (Is there an Einstein in the house) I guess Bensaf will have to do.

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Gee, don't look at me. I don't know anything about Plantex. I seriously doebt can tell you how much is consumed against plant mass or what is wasted. It's an unknown, we can only guess on observation. Experience would suggest the upper limits are relatively high.

I'd say the confusion on dosages between the hopping back and forth info on The Krib is linked to it's use in PMDD. Remember Plantex was just one component of the PMDD solution, macros were also added. I'd suspect the dosing on those sites is based on a PMDD solution rather then a Plantex only solution.

I guess the whole EI thingy is geared more towards the macros. It seems one is pretty much on their own when caculating micros

Not not really. There are very clear dosage rates for Micros in EI. But it's in terms of using Flourish or TMG or equivilent rather then Plantex.
The only answer I'd have is to dose 20-30ml of either TMG or Flourish 3 times a week. This will take care of everything and the micros will be balanced out in relation to FE. I prefer TMG , it's got a good FE chelator, seems to produce a better sheen to plants. Flourish seems to produce slightly fuller growth, but not as shiny sparkly as the TMG. Just my own observations from using them, could all be a figment of my imagination though.


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The only answer I'd have is to dose 20-30ml of either TMG or Flourish 3 times a week. This will take care of everything and the micros will be balanced out in
That's pretty much in line with what I'm doing in my 72g.
10ml flourish 3/week, plus I'm adding in 5ml flourish trace as well.

I still say someone should come up with a formula for mass x growth x waste (Is there an Einstein in the house) I guess Bensaf will have to do
Actually I should have been clearer, I meant in general as an algae control measure not dosing plantex

Last edited by tetratech at 19-Dec-2005 21:55

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Thanks Bensaf and tetratech,

Yeah, when I said one is on its own on micros I forgot to mention that I meant "when using other sources, like Plantex".

I, for my part, will no longer have to struggle with it as my 5 liter TMG bottle will arrive today .

So 30ml 3 x per week is 90ml per week. That means the bottle will last 55 weeks

Still, I could swear that I saw Plantex on the Fertilator a while back (when I got this tank) and I wonder if they took it off because the measurements were wrong. Just trying to blame someone else for my micro dosing amounts .

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Well,

The TMG came last night, but I couldn’t use it yet. I have been at the company Xmas party and came home way too late (and too drunk) to do any dosing .

Also, the 5 liter bottle from Big Al’s doesn’t have any dosing instructions on it. Neither does it list the ingredients. I will check out the Tropica site for details.

This means that my tank hasn’t seen any micros in a week and a half, and only very limited amounts of macros (no P at all). I will measure P and N tonight before dosing anything.

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Gang,

Well, I measured N and P again, last time was on Sunday, if I remember that right.

P is still above 2ppm, but not by much anymore.
N, on the other hand, bottomed out and is not detectable anymore. That means the plants sucked up 10ppm in 3 days, not too shabby .

I dosed 1/2tsp of KNO3 and 1/8tsp Potassium Sulfate right away.

Somehow I still have not found out how much TMG to dose, first no time and then a PC virus]:| that had to be fixed. I will add 20ml in a little while. Is there the same concern that dosing macros and micros at the same time can cause a bad chemical reaction?

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If I remember correctly the dosing for TMG is 5ml per 50lts of water a week. It also states you can go +/- 50% depending on how established the tank.

I dosed 10-15ml 3 times a week. For your tank 20-30mls X 3 will be fine.

Doing Iron and P at the same time can cause a little cloudiness. Dosing a few hours apart should be fine.


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Bensaf,

Thanks for the TMG info.

I guess I will stay then with bi-daily fertilizations whereby macros are on micro off days. We will find out what impact, if any, this change from Plantex to TMG will have.

I also created a new thread about my Apons which grow one really long (special) leaf each. Thread is [link=Here]http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Planted%20Aquaria/67334.html?09921381#" style="COLOR: #ff6633[/link]

Ingo


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- Did my weekly water change.
- Replanted some plants
- Trimmed the Pearl Grass

Looks like ]:| ]:| ]:|

Will post pictures maybe tomorrow or on Monday,

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ONE 125g tank
+Littlefish
+Tetra
+Bensaf
--------------
One LONG thread

you all are crazy. that tank looks amazing. personally ill stick to the old rule of thumb... K.I.S.S (Keep it simple stupid)
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Sin in Style – thanks for the comments

you all are crazy. that tank looks amazing. personally ill stick to the old rule of thumb... K.I.S.S (Keep it simple stupid)


Well, thanks, I guess

But what is the fun in keeping it simple? I like a good challenge, even if I lose once in a while .

And yes, the 3 of us, plus NowherMan6 and a few other, really have the magic to create painfully long threads .

Will post new tank pictures during the day as I did not yet have the time (with all the Xmas stuff going on) to take any.

Ingo


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Weekly Update – Week 13

The tank is now up and running for about 3 months, and what a time it was. It feels like forever and on the other hand like no time at all. Things happen so fast and creep along at the same time.

This week was marked by a change in micro fertilizer, switching from Plantex to TMG, we will see if this has a positive impact on the thread algae that is still growing nicely in the tank. I also started another “Excel Treatment” as I have enough of this stuff. I know that this I way will eliminate the identification of reduced algae (if any), but my goal is to get rid of it as soon as I can .

The last water change was accompanied by some pruning, the potential flower stems of the Apons have been cut as they did not seem to carry any flowers. The ends were thinning just below the flower area on on plant while I must have missed the point when the second pierced the surface as it was creeping along the top while staying in water contact all the way. Also, the Pearl Grass has been ripped out and the bottom parts have been disposed off and tops were replanted. Quite a few Sags and Chain Swords have been removed in the process. This gave me the option to divide the mystery Althernanthera, I guess it is a “reineckii 'Lilacina'” into a few pieces and replanting them as a group.

Here are some full tank shots from the last 5 weekends and a few details as well.

First the tank at week 9:

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Then week 10, the vals have been replaced by cyperus helferi and the apons planted in week 9 are beginning to show:

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Week 11, everything keeps on growing :

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Week 12, ludwigia and rotala macandra have been trimmed, the rest is growing even more:

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Week 13, this weekend, changes have been performed as described in the weekly tank update post above:

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The new Althernanthera group, maybe someone can now identify which type it is:

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The Apon all the way to the top. The left one is yet again developing a floating leaf, the second in a row. Bensaf is probably right on this plant not being a crispus after all:

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I am positively surprised by the narrow leaf sag subulata. It has reached the surface and waves nicely in the current:

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Previous post deleted, I guess 97kb is not less than 100

Here is a close-up of the ludwigia with crypt retrospiralis on the left (very long leaves by now) and the narrow leaf sags on the right:

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Last but not least a shot of the glosso. Very soon I will have to trim the plant as it is now layer over layer of glosso:

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It looks like plain old Reineckii to me.

But not a very happy Reineckii by the looks of it. It's a painfully slow grower for a stem plant.

Try to leave it and let grow as tall as possible. I find as it gets taller it gets much more sturdy looking. The leaves get bigger and wider and the underside a bright purple. It should branch out a bit too.After that trim it by uprooting and discarding the bottom , it will continue to grow big and strong. Not sure if this is because it gets closer to light or it just needs some time and room to grow.

It can be a very bold strong plant but takes time. It's quite e to stunting if the nitrates drop too low. Leave it there and let it grow as tall as possible (it could take 2 months to hit the surface) , you should see it get wider. Once it's tall enough you can move it anywhere you like.

Personally I find it's so strong looking with the upward pointing leaves it's better suited at the back with just the top half sticking out from dense greenery. When it's tall the lights reflecting off the bright purple undersides can be quite stunning.


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Bensaf,

Thanks for the plant ID. Plain old Reineckii, hm, no fancy middle name like bensafii or ingoii, too bad .

Yeah, tell me about it being a slow grower. It is in the tank since the beginning and hasn’t done much at all. It only started to grow (and branch out) when the Pearl Grass shadowed it and it needed to stretch to get the light it requires. Most likely that is why it looks so sad, too much shade in the last 2 weeks. But I was able to take 3 of its side branches and plant them separately, plus the main stem with the bottom cut off.

I agree that it should be better in the back of the tank once it has grown to sufficient size, but I guess with the current growth speed this will be at my 60th birthday .

Ingo

Anyone has any comments/suggestions for the tank in general?


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Well, you could definitely grow plants. Now that the pissing contest is over, I hope someone stuffed your stocking with driftwood or rocks.

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What :%)

There was a contest? Where was I? Did I miss that all? Or are you talking about your stones? I don’t want them in my Xmas stocking .

Na, didn’t get any driftwood or rocks for Xmas, not even the 55G African Lake Setup I asked for .

Ingo

PS: And what do you mean with I could grow plants, I thought that is what I am doing :%) ?


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55G African Lake Setup I asked for
Are you moving toward salt water?

Pissing contest, just an expression because your plants are growing.

The driftwood would really break up the different plant types.


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No, I am not moving towards SW tanks, at least not in the foreseeable future. My wife just happened to as k me what I want for Xmas, and, having no specific idea, I said a 55G African Lake Cichlid tank, knowing very well that I will not get it .

Thanks for the US English 201 help, never heard that term .

Yeah, I have started to look for wood, but I need enormous sized to make an impact. I have stones that wouldn’t even fit in a Nano tank simply disappear in my setup.

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Yeah, I have started to look for wood, but I need enormous sized to make an impact.


I totally agree you desperately need to some driftwood. This alone will transform your tank from a tank with plants to an actual aquascape. It's crrying out for it.

I don't know where you get this idea you need an enormous piece. You don't. I've mention before a lot of aquascaping is sleight of hand. Lots of small pieces can be made to look like a big impresive piece. My own tank which is only half the size of yours has six different pieces of wood piled on top of one another. It's impossible to tell where one ends and another starts. 70% is not visible anyway.

What you want are branches poking out to add dynamics and depth. Sections that can be planted with moss/fern/anubias to give height and layers. The wood itself doesn't need to be a feature or focal point, it just needs to be a base, a division of areas and a may of adding highlights and accents through the branches. It's doesn't need to be a monumantal attractive piece of wood in itself.

Some go mad with the wood and it becomes a distraction. Look at the good tanks , the wood is usually just branches poking out, the bulk ofthe wood is either planted over or hidden by rocks etc.

A few pieces of branchy driftwood will work fine. Doesn't need to be spectacular or big. Lots of small pieces can be piled up together to get the same effect.Pieces can put on top of a rock "stage" to give height. Wood is real easy to pile up safely, it's not like rock.

As your looking for comments i'll give you my 50 bucks worth (I can never stop a 2 cents ).

I like the tank, it's a real nice foundation. The grassy flowing green look is really good. But that's all it is at the the moment - a foundation. There's no drama, no focus, there's nowhere for the eye to rest, nothing that drags me in and makes me want to look further, needs a bit more depth.

The brush strokes of wood would be a huge help.The other thing I'd do is have a thick grouping of a big strong colorful stem plant. Macrandra is a real nice plant but it's too delicate in a large tank to be a focal. You are using it just fine as is and I wouldn't move it. The Ludwigia is too ho hum to get noticed. I'd go gor a big thicket of a real strong plant to go where the Ludwigia is now. Something like Stella Broadleaf, Limnophilia Aromatica or Ammania Gracillis. This are big wide bold colorful plants. Replacing the same number of stems of Ludwigia with the same number of stems of one of these plants would make a bigger bolder more colorful statement without increasing maintenance.

These two additions would improve your tank hugely without any extra work (wood is zero maintenance).

Ok that was more like $60 worth


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Bensaf,

A check over $60 is on its way

Yeah, I didn’t mean one gigantic piece when I said huge. My thoughts were more geared towards length and branched. If I want to have 30% showing of the wood then the branch length would have to be at least 20inches. And it should preferably be of the same kind of wood. Maybe I send tetratech out to scout the LFS in Long Island to see if they have such sticks.

Ammania Gracillis and the likes: I guess all of that could fall into place once I have found the wood as it would give the tank a whole new look in the first place. I currently love my tall grassy plants and I could imagine having more areas in the back and middle planted with them. I actually don’t like my dwarf sags and pygmy chains that much anymore. They spread like mad and for some unknown reason some of them seem to wither away – their leaves are desintigrating – although they get enough light for sure.

At least I don’t have to worry about getting bored with the tank.

Thanks again for the input, I will try my best,

Ingo



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Maybe I send tetratech out to scout the LFS in Long Island to see if they have such sticks.

The real branchy pieces are hard to find, I don't have those either. Mine have length but don't really branch off.

My DW in the middle was actually part of a bigger piece that I took a sawsall to. You could do that but the area that is cut will not look natural, but as Bensaf pointed out most of it is or eventually will be hidden.

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Somehow I still have that fantasy where I snorkel in a lake in the area here and come up with just the right driftwood. But there are a few reasons why this might not work:

a) Way too cold to snorkel
b) I don’t know how to identify the tree from which such wood would come and as such might introduce wood that will rot away quickly
c) It is hard to convince the family that Papa has to go on a driftwood hunting trip

Ingo


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d)Depends on what part of Jersey your snorkling in.

LF I was in Plainsboro NJ (Right near Princeton) on Monday. Took Exit 8a NJ Turnpike.

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Yeah, I was not intending to snorkel anywhere in NJ, don’t want to get a rash

I was thinking more about Upstate New York.

Exit 8 on the Turnpike is probably as far away from me as you are.

Ingo


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Gang,

On the menu for this week is another attempt to get my fertilizing routine to be more stable and to not supersede the target values.

As such I feed

Potassium Nitrate every other day only 1/2 of a teaspoon
Potassium Sulfate every other day only 1/8 of a teaspoon
TMG on the same days as the macros 20ml

On Friday evening I will measure Phosphates (tab = 2ppm and has been a little higher before the last water change) and Nitrates (which I purposefully let bottom out over a week ago as an experiment) and see if I need to add some more in the future.

I also currently do another Excel dosing session (since the last water change) with the initial dosage of 50ml and every day since then 20ml. I was hoping it would help me to get rid of the thread algae that remained in the tank after the major pruning attempt 2 weeks ago. So far it doesn’t look like it would help, although I haven’t seen any additional growth either (maybe I am not looking close enough). But a few bushels of brush algae that I have (nothing major) are turning red and are dying.

Ingo


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On Friday evening I will measure Phosphates (tab = 2ppm and has been a little higher before the last water change) and Nitrates (which I purposefully let bottom out over a week ago as an experiment) and see if I need to add some more in the future.
Jersey Water

That's interesting with the excel, so it REALLY worked the first time and after that it wasn't as effective with the same dosing. Did it work on all algae, even BGA which isn't really algae. So your dosing 5 times normal and then 2 times.

I might try it in my 12g which has some BGA or in the 72g which has BBA on the rocks.





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tetratech,

I am not sure what kind of algae is affected by the Excel.

BBA for sure, as I see it die ].

BGA – I haven’t tried it on BGA as the only time I had that in my big tank I treated it with Maracyn, and that was weeks before the first Excel attempt. Maracyn works very well.

The second round of Excel treatment wasn’t a full blown attack (maybe 2 to 3 weeks back) but more of a half-hearted attempt to achieve something. Well, that didn’t work what-so-ever.

The first round was performed when I in particular had a significant amount of BBA and that worked very well (dosing 50ml then 50%water change, 50ml, 20ml, 20ml, 20ml, 20ml, 20ml).

This time around I have very few BBA and it is already dying, but the thread doesn’t seem to care (but no growth either, which could also stem from normalized Phosphate values and/or switching to TMG, aka less Iron addition). So far, I dosed 50ml, 20ml, 20ml, 20ml, 20ml, and I plan to dose 2 more days at 20ml each.

Ingo

EDIT: I replaced the Brush term with BBA as I think that is what I have/had, if there is any difference.

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 29-Dec-2005 08:04


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Maracyn
The regular mardel product, regular dosing?

Brush term with BBA
There's many different types of brush algae, but yes brush and bba is one in the same as far as these dicussions.



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The regular Mardel product, yes.

I forgot what the regular dosage was, but I think I even stayed on the light side of it.

I added 4 tablets, spread throughout the tank, each day for 5 days. Bensaf didn’t like that, he never made a comment about it after I used it, but when I mentioned I will give this a try he voted against it.

I also used it on my 20G (which was the first tank I used it on) and it worked also very well. I actually assume I introduced BGA to the big tank by adding plants (the Rotala) from the 20G that were already infested.

In addition, on both tanks, I changed the water flow as there were some very low current areas. In the 20 I repositioned the HOB to the middle of the tank, in the 125 I added temporarily a powerhead to blow some current across the front of the tank (things have changed since then again, as you know).

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Interesting,

I didn't have bga in my 12 until I changed the light from 1.1wpg to 2.3wpg. My 12 actually has very good water movement from the HOB and it you could see the java moss swaying in the current. The tank has very little mass (just java moss and some wisteria). The filter is a small whisper HOB from the AGA 5gallon I had. I had a sheet of coarse filter media and I just threw it in.

I believe this comes down to waste and light again. My guess is the tank has too much light and not enough biofilter to control the BGA. BGA is a bacteria after all. I've now added some eheim efisubstrate to the filter and put some eco complete from the 72g into the back of the tank. This is my educated guess. If this doesn't work I will either do the marcyan or emycin.

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Tetratech,

I think BGA can manifest itself in many ways. So far I have heard about:

a) Foreign introduction (plants, gravel from other tank etc)
b) Low Nitrates with other nutrients being available (can fix its own Nitrate)
c) Lack of current

I would rule out light as a direct source. Sure, it will speed up the process of growth, but it seems to appear in low light tanks as well as high light tanks.

What an interesting little bugger this is .

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Ok,

Because I am bored, here is another part from the Espei Education Department

I hope I don’t bore you all too much

Location division within the tank

The oldest juveniles (maybe 9 weeks and up) and the adults occupy the top levels of the water. They preferably hang out on the left side of the tank.

Younger juveniles (between 4 and 9 weeks) are scattered throughout the tank, on low levels close to the substrate.

Even younger ones (2 to 4 weeks) team up on the lower right hand side of the tank, in the back.

And the tiny fry (less than 2 weeks) is hiding most of the time within the plants close to the substrate.

Here is a shot of the left side with the old guys

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Here, I made an effort to count them, I think I circled 44 in this picture

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And here, already circled, are the 2 to 4 week old ones on the left of the Macandra group

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Interesting about the fish locations by size. I definitely see why you go by the name of Little_Fish.

So in the tank you have a few otos, 2 gourmais, and a few hundred espei?

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Yeah, being a fish-newbie was only one reason why I selected the name LITTLE_FISH. The others were that I like little fish (not that hard to guess) and I made it upper case to put some emphasis behind it . Like a little fish with really big teeth .

Acutally, the tank currently has 6 Otos (as of last Saturday when I was lucky enough to see them all) and 5 million Espei (acutally, I guess there are still less than 100, maybe 80).

The Pearls are still in the QT as I don't want to introduce them while I am still messing with the tank like a madman .

Ingo


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So there's no enemy for the espei other than the adults themselves and the filter intake?

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That's right

They got their own version of Garden Eden, and the filter intake is the the snake that lures them into biting into the apple (eh - didn't come up with something better) .

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LF,

That works for me.

As for being bored how about sending me some Glosso? = ) Take your time. I might actually place an order for some a long with some other plants. I need to do some checking around first.



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Wingsdlc,

Let me know if you ordered some Glosso.

Otherwise, I will have to find a good way to ship it to you. Any suggestions, like UPS, USPS, overnight, or what?

I would probably have to cut it in the evening and have it float over night, then pack it in the morning and have the wife bring it to the sender (Post Office or UPS drop off) in the morning.

Ingo

PS: I have never shipped any plants anywhere


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Going to PM you.

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Ok,

I measured my tank parameters again yesterday evening, at least N and P.

N is back up to almost 20ppm, even if it was completely depleted a week earlier and I only added 3 x 1/2tsp of KNO3 during the week.
P stands as about 2ppm, which is a little less than last weekend, and I didn’t add any.
The only other elements I added to the tank where 3 x 20ml of TMG, 3 x 1/8tsp of Potassium Sulfate, and a daily shot of Excel (as described a few posts earlier).

I guess for the next week I will keep this schedule, I would assume that P will fall a little below 2ppm and N might get a little over 20ppm.

Problems that I currently have still include the thread algae that, although not rampant, is doing just fine in the tank (high lights are down to 3 hours per day since weeks). Also, some of my Dwarf Sags and/or Pygmy Chain Swords have melting leaves, I will have to read up on that as it has happened on and off during the entire time the tank is set up.

A weekly water change will follow later today,

Ingo


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I can't imagine with all those plants that your n is so high. Did you ever do the PPS calibration? When I did that I was surprised. My levels were lower than I thought by simply looking at those ridiculous color charts.

What would add to N all that espei poop and those melting leaves? Oh I forgot, Jersey water



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No tetratech,

to my shame I have to say that I did not do the PPS calibration yet. And it might very well be that it has something to do with the Jersey water .

Ingo


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Weekly Tank Update – Week 14

Well, this one could also be labeled annual tank update, although it would be only the first one of its kind (in the hope that another will follow in one year; I wonder what that would look like). The tank is now up and running for 14 weeks, many many posts account for all the things that have been going on in that time. The ones that stick mostly in my memory are:

- Planting of the initial setup seemed to be a lot of plants, but in retrospect was only a rather small mass.
- I would guess that half of the plant species from the initial setup are no longer in the tank. All but one did not seem to fit the design of the tank any longer, and the one (Egeria Densa) fell victim to a rigorous Excel treatment.
- Various types of algae have befallen the tank during this time, from the rather harmless Brown Slime to the not so pleasant Blue Green Algae. None was so bad that the tank had to be stripped down but there were annoying anyways. The currently active one is Thread algae that do not seem to be very impressed by an Excel cure.
- Most importantly was (is) the breeding of my Espei that, within all this mess mentioned above, managed to grow their population by at least 500% to anywhere from 70 to 100 fish.

As for changes during the last week, not much has changed. This water change saw some pruning of the Ludwigia and the cutting of some runners of the Chain Swords as they always try to invade the Glosso. I sure don’t have a low maintenance tank, but that was not the intention anyway.

Well, I initially thought about posting all the weekly tank pictures, but I think that 15 are a little too much and get boring. So I will show every other week to shorten the pain.

Here is the tank at setup, soooooo many plants

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2 weeks later the tank was at full bloom, lots of fast growers were making sure that the tank establishes itself as fast as possible.

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In week 4 the first steps at some scaping were taken, most of the really bushy fast growers had been removed by then as they were outgrowing any other plant in the tank.

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Week 6 saw more scaping, still in the beginning though. The Dwarf Sags and Pygmy Chain Swords are still small and sparse.

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In and around week 8 major replanting occurred where entire groups of plants have been moved from one location to another, or even left the tank all together to make space for new plant types.

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Week 10 marked the end of this replanting frenzy and only smaller changes like pruning etc start to take preference.

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Week 12 sees the plants growing, in particular the new Apons are starting to show their size.

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This weekend, week 14. As you can see, small plants have grown to medium size, medium one to really tall, except for the ones that just have been pruned. Somehow, the Uruguaensis in front of the Power Reactor is still not reaching any visible size, one has to look for it (in the tank, not the picture). The same counts for 3 Crypt Lucens that pretty much haven’t done anything since planted. Making the assumption that they are medium high plants I placed them half way to the back (in front of the Apons) and now no one can see them.

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Some tank details: I like the way the tank looks when half the water is removed during the water change. It is so green and the long leaves of various plants create a nice floating carpet on the surface. Sometimes I wonder if I should keep it like that permanently.

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Here is a close-up of some Glosso towards the left side of the tank. Wherever Glosso is beginning to create a carpet but doesn’t yet have a very dense appearance this kind of algae grows in between. I cannot remove it either as it is attached to the rocks that hold the Glosso roots in place.

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The Rotala group just keeps on growing; I should have trimmed these two long stems this weekend but didn’t feel like it. Next weekend for sure.

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[font color="#C00000"]See previous page for weekly tank update pictures and more detail shots[/font]

And yes, we have another blossom on the Anubias. I just love the simplicity of their appearance.

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Another good thing during the water changes is that I can most of the time find all my Otos, here are 3 of them torpedoing below the Espei.

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I like the waving appearance of the Crypt Retrospiralis, although the leaves are really long by now. How long do they get anyway? I think this plant needs to go to a tank side, or – if I ever find some good driftwood – behind that.

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Last but not least a shot of the Rock Valley. It looks very green these days, all around. The Cyperus Helferi has not grown in height at all since planted, but it seems to get a little fuller. Is this it’s final height already? That would not be good.

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Very nice LF. Nice way to start the New Year.

-I really like that pick as well showing the tank 1/2 full.
-I forgot are you cutting the tops on the Rotala or once trimmed replanting the tops.
-As Bensaf and I have both commented, your tank is really is dire need of DW and/or visible rock to make it look naturally handsome.
-Small note I removed the Anubias from my tank it simply doesn't work well with my setup.
-I'm wondering if your deep glosso foreground with that matrix of leaves and algae is harboring no3 and po4 by trapping waste and food and then leaching it into the water column. Maybe Bensaf has a thought.

Happy New Year and Happy Driftwood Hunting!


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tetratech,

Thanks for the comments; they are appreciated just as much as they were last year

I do both with the Rotala, I started off with 3 stems, if I remember that right. I cut off tops and replant them, and most of the time I leave the bottoms in as well. Only if they look really yucky so I dispose them.

Yeah, I know – the driftwood/rock height impression. I actually was at the LFS today and almost bought some wood, but in the end decided that it just doesn’t have enough height. Mediocre sized pieces tend to simply disappear in my plant jungle, as can be seen already with the many rocks in the tank.

I think one Anubias is very hard to fit into any scheme, a group would be much easier to add.

Usually the area above the Glosso is the only part that I vacuum a little. But I am doing a bad job with it as I place a filter over the hose (wife’s old panty hose leg ) to avoid sucking up fry. As such I don’t get a lot of suction. Maybe you are on to something as the area between the Glosso plants sure looks messy.

Happy New Year to you as well,

Ingo


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BTW, Like my new Avatar?

That is one of my female Gold Twin Bar (Comet) Platies in the 20G.

I thought why not have a new Avatar in the New Year.

Ingo



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I like the way the tank looks when half the water is removed during the water change.

I do the same thing. It helps too that the fish tend to school tightly at the front of the glass during this period too. I always take a cigarette break during this part of the water change so I can look for a few minutes. Makes you want to try a real long but very shallow tank.

The Uruquay and Cyperus will take some time to get height. I've had a Uruquaysenis a bit longer then you and I find the new leaves get gradually longer and longer. But even after having mine for a few months the current leaves max out at about 12". They're getting wider too. I reckon it'll probably take >6 months to get to full height.
The Cyperus is probably the same.

Don't know about the algae and the glosso. I noticed on my own that I have specks of green spot algae on the glass up to the height of the Glosso but not anywhere else.Nothing on the plants or substrate. Don't why that is, maybe because of the Glosso I don't clean that part of the glass and it gradually builds up. It's just hard to get to that part of the glass without disturbing the glosso. Old credit card job.

Definately I'd check the test kit. I had a Tetra NO3 kit that used to constantly read 20ppm of NO3 even though there was nothing there. It even used to read tap water at the about the same. Caused me problems. It was this more then anything put me off kits for life.





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Bensaf,

Thanks for the info on the Sword and Cyperus. Also, I agree that trying to clean the glass all the way down where the Glosso grows is almost impossible as I would most certainly cause it to be uprooted. I will soon though go ahead and trim the Glosso off the glass section and use that chance for a nice cleaning.

I hear your (and tetratech’s) warning about the test kit accuracy loud and clear. But I also would like to remind you that my “fertilizer tests” during the last 2 weeks showed me that the kit basically works. I could see values going from high (greater than 20ppm) all the way down to nothing when I stopped adding KNO3. I don’t know if the level reading is accurate, but tendencies are clearly identifiable. If I just wouldn’t be so lazy I would go ahead and do tetratech’s PPS test. I vaguely remember reading up on this and I seem to have found some issues with it as well. Guess I will have to read it again .

Also, Dan brought up a good point in his log that people rarely show the surroundings of their tanks so I posted a picture in his log of mine (he asked for it). Here it is again (you didn’t ask, but anyway).

Ingo

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I don’t know if the level reading is accurate, but tendencies are clearly identifiable
For the most part I agree, but I my no3 kit it's almost impossible to tell the difference between 10ppm to 20ppm and 40ppm to 80ppm without a benchmark.

The full room shot is nice. I like that window right behind your tank, you could drain the tank right into the yard. Is that a couch in front of the tank? I would be hanking out there 24/7.

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I know, I know tetratech, I am just a lazy bum

And yes, this is a couch , big enough to sleep on (which happened one night after an exhausting tank overhaul).

Here is another shot. The couch is visible in the front left. Then there is the coffee table to rest the feet on, and a chair to the right. The visible counter area is where I prepare the food and fertilizer, on the left of it, just off the picture, is a small TV hooked up to digital cable so I can watch 200 channels and listen to music while working on the tanks. Two of the counter cabinets are filled with tank related items like spare rocks, spare lights, Excel, Prime, and the like.

Ingo

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And here is our old cat resting on the above mentioned chair (and towels).

He would also be the reason why an open tank in our household is not a good idea .

Ingo

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Not much new to report,

Except maybe that I am switching to daily fert addition.

I add 1/4tsp KNO3, 1/16tsp Potassium Sulfate, and 10ml of TMG every day since Saturday after the water change.

I am wondering if it makes a difference if ferts are added in the morning or the evening.

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I am wondering if it makes a difference if ferts are added in the morning or the evening
Are you experimenting just for the hell of it or are you trying to correct a problem (hair algae).

I still think you have less room for error because of your light. Not that it's ridiculously high, but it is very high given the tank size. Doesn't Amano only use like 1.5 to 2 wpg on his big tanks. As I said before you have double the light I have for the same depth. I do think you plants grow faster than mine, probably because of the higher light, but with that comes less wiggle room for things like fish waste, etc.

Interesting though that you get thread algae, nowher and I get GW and Bensaf get's nothing. If you could figure that out :%)

BTW - Nice kitty, looks like he/she is guarding the tank or waiting for the fish to get bigger.

Last edited by tetratech at 03-Jan-2006 08:49

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Interesting though that you get thread algae, nowher and I get GW and Bensaf get's nothing. If you could figure that out



Interesting indeed. Sometimes I get the feeling that it all comes down to the fact that when he started his tank he stuffed it full of plants right off the bat, while we all waited for ours to grow in. We all dose pretty much the same way in a method that's shown to keep algae down, but I think maybe it was those first few critical days/ weeks where the tanks were settling in that made the difference. That's why I'm anxious to start a small tank (5-7gals... once Christmas gifts are paid off ) because it's easier to stuff a small tank than a large tank. If it turns out relatively algae free then maybe that'll provide a bit more insight into keeping tanks relatively algae free no matter what the size.


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Oh, and I also forgot to add... I hate to beat a dead horse but...




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[/font]


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Nowher,
Yes I agree with the plant mass at the start, not only does it add in fert suck up more importantly nh3 as well. Basically Bensaf started off with a much bigger biofilter than anyone else.

As far as the Driftwood I think LF gets the "Drift". For the time being if it was me I would just put the coffee table into the tank.

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LF,

I have some 2x4's laying around you can have..........

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You guys are too much

Yes, I get the drift, and I am even willing to pay a commission to anybody who finds me the right pieces of qualified driftwood.

The “new” ideas about the fertilizing routine are more of theoretical nature, although I wouldn’t mind if the remaining thread algae would disappear in the process. My thoughts are:

- Fertilizing daily creates a more balanced environment for nutrient availability. I just have not done that before because the Plantex was so hard to dissolve (as I probably added way too much anyways).
- What happens with nutrients at nighttime? Most likely nothing, I doubt that any organism (or filter media) would use them up while the lights are out. But if so then dosing in the morning would be an advantage.

The cat is an old man, he is about 14 years old and way too lazy to jump on the big tank. But a Nano, well that is another story .

Amano has on tanks of my size about 3wpg running for about 10 to 12 hours, only really big tanks have maybe 2 to 2.5 (at least that was what I calculated). Also, he never mentions any short bright light time which makes me believe his full lights are on for the full duration.

I guess this coming weekend I will create a major open space in the middle of the tank and sink the coffee table .

Ingo


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Just for the fun of it,

Here is a picture of the 2 Anubias Barteri that I have on the left side of my tank.

Count them, there are EIGHT flowers, some coming, some in full bloom, and some going

Ingo

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And as a reminder,

Soon it is going to be time for this guy (and his girl) to come home to the big tank

Ingo

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nowher and I get GW and Bensaf get's nothing.


Hmmm....I wouldn't quite say that. I get some, everyone does, just very very little so it's almost invisible.

Oh, dear I can hear the illusions shattering from here

The Ottos must be eating something, I don't feed 'em. I've got a Hillstream Loach for over a year that I've never even see swim much less eat. I get the occassional green spot on the glass if I let PO4 drop. I had a bad dose of Brown Algae when I changed over the tank recently. Silica Sand , to be expected.I just let it burn itself out.

With regard to the lighting. Amano is quite clear that he only runs the full lights for a few hours a day. The rest of the time all his tanks are basically low light.The exception being his very small tanks which he runs about 6 wpg.

Getting in on the horse flogging - try florida driftwood. I still think you should get a pile of so-so pieces and just build them up.

Also plants consume nutrients 24/7.They still work at night. Actually they do MOST of their growing at night - check your tank first thing in the morning and you'll see the spurts. It doesn't matter when you add the ferts as long as they are there, whenever is convenient.

Last edited by bensaf at 03-Jan-2006 21:19


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Thanks Bensaf for the input,

Yeah yeah, it is always nice to have 3 guys on your back telling you to get some driftwood

Believe me, I am on that website at least once a week.

And Bensaf and algae – I think he only says that to make us feel better

Bensaf – where does Amano state that he runs his tanks with full light only part of the time? I haven’t seen this reference yet. All he says in his books is the wattage and duration, no mention of staging (although I might be wrong as I read them maybe 2 months ago and I am an old man and might have forgotten what I read ).

Thanks again,

Ingo


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I get some, everyone does, just very very little so it's almost invisible
ah ha! I knew it That's why I never saw more pictures of your Bensaf does Amano Paradise Utopia Eden Aquatic Forest Setup :%)

Actually they do MOST of their growing at night - check your tank first thing in the morning and you'll see the spurts.
That is so true and I was going to post this question, when I wake up I swear my Stargrass looks like it grew 3 or 4 inches.

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Actually they do MOST of their growing at night - check your tank first thing in the morning and you'll see the spurts.



Yeah, so true. I swear my green water looks so much more lush and juicy in the morning, it's incredible.


But seriously, considering how easy it is for algae to use nutrients of course there's going to be SOME, but I think we were referring to the problems, the outbreaks, the explosions - THAT'S what Bensaf never gets, the bad stuff! I still personally think it's because he started out right.


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My problem is that I rarely see my tank in the mornings. When I leave the house it is dark in the basement and I don't want to turn on any lights so the fish get their well needed rest (with all that breeding going on).

I will have to check the night-growth out on the coming weekend .

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That's why I never saw more pictures of your Bensaf does Amano Paradise Utopia Eden Aquatic Forest Setup


Ohhhh...sounds like a challenge


Guess I'll have to post a pic tomorrow

I've resisted meddling with this one, letting everything grow in. Still not there yet, maybe 85%. Then again my 85% is probably way better then somes 100% ........


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Bensaf,

I am always happy when you post a picture, not only when you are challenged to do so .

We need to see way more of your tanks so we can learn from the visual experience as well as your writing.

Ingo


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Ohhhh...sounds like a challenge
Whatever it takes

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Guess I'll have to post a pic tomorrow


Well, today is tomorrow, isn't it?

no pic here

Ingo




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Ok you asked for it and here it be....

The right side needs more time. The Uruquaysenis and Narrow Leaf Fern need to fill out more to balance thins.

The left side is a bit off as the Macrandra was over trimmed and needs a bit more height to fill the hole it left

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Another

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This is actually my first time to try Glosso. It's working ok. One thing I like - if it hits an obstacle in it's path, it just climbs over it and continues on it's merry way. I've decided to let run rampant and see where it goes.

Here's some climbing over an Erect Moss obstacle.

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Well Bensaf,

No disappointment, as usual .

That is what I would call a heavily planted tank, left to right and top to bottom, I love it.

About letting the Glosso run rampant: It will take over your lower plants and kill them off. I find my Glosso to be very intrusive, it climbs all over my rocks and into the moss, if I let it. Also, it managed to grow really dense at the center of a Crypt Wendtii that is now neglecting to put any new leaves out (and grows very slow).
I had my Glosso and Hair Grass fight for space at Rock Valley and guess who won (but maybe I had a bad hair – grass- day )?

Ingo


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Finally we get something from the great Bensaf.

Very lush and beautiful. Nice textures, etc.
I see what you mean about the fullness of the left to the right. I might also have to send you shopping with LF for more substantial dw or you simply need to prune more or I just can't see it in the pic.

Did you remove the Mayacca? One thing I'm not sure about is whether I like the contrast of the sand more than I do the green ground cover.

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The “Driftwood War” is getting into full swing

I wouldn’t mind going shopping with Bensaf at all, maybe we could meet somewhere in the middle, like Ireland .

Ingo


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I dunno Bensaf, that glosso looks a little leggy to me, maybe you need some pointers on how to really get your plants growing well...


LF, I'm telling you, ebay! ebay! ebay! Morwe driftwood than you'll know what to do with.


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NowherMan6,

Ah yeah?

I challenge you to find one piece that I would not turn down for one reason or another .

Try me

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Alright then...


http://cgi.ebay.com/UNIQUE-HUGE-DRIFTWOOD-ROCKS-IMBED-Aquarium_W0QQitemZ7735756182QQcategoryZ66790QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

A huge piece, very branchy - I'd cut it up into one large one and several smaller ones. Give it a bleach bath, a scrubbbing, then let it soak in water with Prime... it should be fine.





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That is a really nice piece and your right about breaking it up.


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Well NowherMan6,

That took you a long time to find anything, didn't it ?

I have to say that it looks very good, thank you so much (feeling like a looser now because all I always find are silly blocks of wood).

The asking price is also not all that high, I might just place a bid on it. In the worst case it is a learning experience and a small dollar loss.

Thanks again, let me know if you find other jewels like that,

Ingo


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You're very welcome

There was actually a big piece I saw last week that was just as nice, if not nicer, a nice tall stump/ branchy type thing but it's gone now.

I always cruise ebay for driftwood and the like because I have Mental MTS, which is different that regular MTS. Mental MTS is when you make detailed plans and aquascape layouts in your head for various tanks but never do them, MTS is when you actually do it.

I'm still dreaming of a big 100+ gallon driftwood filled tank featuring a boatload of rams, or a few firemouths or angels and a big ol' school of tetras... a real biotope type thing... but I digress. So yeah, keep an eye out on ebay, lots of good stuff.


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The advantage of Mental MTS is that it is much cheaper

I just saw that somebody put a bid in for this sucker, I hope it is none of you folks ]:|

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Would I do that?

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I don’t know, would you?

There is another old saying that goes like:

One cannot trust the upside down – head in tank – goggles on – aquascaper



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Dang I thought it was the other way around......... oh NO!!!

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I dunno Bensaf, that glosso looks a little leggy to me, maybe you need some pointers on how to really get your plants growing well...


Cheeky young pup ....


I didn't do anything special. You guys were nagging me so I just grabbed the camera. Unfortunately the Wisteria and Ammania were starting to close up for the night.The photos dark.

Current problems I see-
The Augustifolia and Macrandra need to fill out more to fill that far left side. Another couple of weeks should do that.
The Fern and Uruquay needs a couple more months.
The Wisteria needs to come down and forward a few inches, layered more. Actually I'd like to replace this with Stargrass but still can't find it here for some reason.
The Ammania needs to be sculpted. It's a bit shapeless looking.

I agree with tetra completely. The Glosso was more of a curiosity as I've never tried it before. I think I prefer the open sand look. It had more depth, the Glosso make it look a bit flat.But it can be removed easily enough if I decide to do so.

BTW the Mayacca is still there, between the Wisteria and Ammania but is a lot greener then the last time I posted a pic

The driftwood has been swamped and has lost it's impact. I'm meeting up with Paulus (Upikabu) tomorrow, so I'm sure we'll be hitting a few places with "driftwood mountains", I'll be looking out for a couple of thin branchy bits. I can fit them in nicely without disturbing anything.

I'll be posting some close ups in a seperate thread. I've got some nice hard to find/not so common plants in there, including one so rare in the US most don't even believe it exists. I'm going to post photos and growing parameters/my own experience on each of them.

I can also un-hijack Ingo's thread !


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LITTLE_FISH
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Bensaf,

Don’t worry about high jacking my thread, we asked for it .

The driftwood has been swamped and has lost it's impact


That is exactly one of my points on finding just the right driftwood. It is rather easy to find one when the scape is designed to not fill out the tank (tetratech), but loads of plants that cover the tank make it hard to have anything (may it be rock or wood, or even a castle) stick out. I see that even in Amano’s tanks that are heavily planted (as in full, not just substrate and some height areas) the wood disappears over time.

Ingo


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NowherMan6,

What are you getting me into with this driftwood selection?

It is by now already over $50 plus $16 shipping, and over 3 days left on the auction.

See, this is a price range where the wood is should be of good quality, and not only of good size and shape. And quality is one thing you cannot test from looking at a picture. It might have bugs, and fungus, and what not, it might even begin to rot already.

Ingo


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NowherMan6
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I'm sorry I ever mentioned it

Hey, I was only trying to help. Considering a piece that size 50 bucks isn't that much, but you're dead on about the quality - from the look of it it looks fine, but I guess you never know. I was always under the assumption that a good bleach scrub would get rid of any critters, but again, you never know.

What can I say, some of us just like to live on the wild side with ebay


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LITTLE_FISH
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I am a major chicken when it comes to these things

And don’t worry about the additional stress you cause me, if you find more wood then keep on informing me. I will see how high it is a few hours before the auction closes.

With these bidding things on E-Bay: sometimes the price is valid but other times a bidding war starts where one is willing to bid more than someone else simply because that person assumes that the previous bidder must know that the product is good (which is not the case), and so forth.

Ingo


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NowherMan6
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Will do boss

I always stay out of bidding wars. usually I jump on "Buy it now" items if I like them, because then you stay away from all that other nonsense. Keep your eyes open, deals are out there to be had.


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Wingsdlc
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My old boss and his friend used to start their own biddig wars on their items. Just a little bit on the dishonest side. He was the kind of guy to do just about anything for a buck.

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Yeah Wingsdlc,

I was worried about that too, there might be a group of people out there who artificially drive prices up and cause the "if others want it it must be good" assumption.

Ingo


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luvmykrib
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I am definitely not brave enough to buy anything off ebay. My friend has been having problems with not getting purchases after paying for them. Scary!

Ingo don't let these guys pressure you into getting driftwood just for the sake of having it. When you find the right piece you'll know it and then you'll have it. Just keep your eyes peeled and you'll find it eventually. Personally I think they're jealous of the all green look, you have so much growth it makes their eyes cross with envy and they must nitpick. Myself I'm also jealous but I think I handle it ok.

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Thanks for the support luvmykrib

I am rather sure that the gang actually wants to help me and I appreciate their efforts very much. If we wouldn’t nitpick on each other we would not be able to bring our tanks to the next level. And don’t you worry, I am doing the same to them . And thank you for the compliment; it is always nice to have some feedback.

On a different note:

Just to show you how easy it is to lose stuff in your tank

Besides the hardscape that is visible in the first picture, there have been another 3 massive rocks added to the tank until that second picture was taken.

And all seem to be non-existent

Even the rocks of “Rock Valley” seem to be smaller now. Are they shrinking ?

Ingo

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And don’t you worry, I am doing the same to them
Now I'm in for it.

LF,
That's a great pic of the tank with just the harscape and now. It really is very serene and the grass-like plants were really a good move.

As you probably know I am not a big fan of making the corners of a tank tall. Obviously most people do it to hide equipment, but in doing so it makes the tank look contrived. Sometimes the corners look good full if it works with your setup or if your doing a slope down effect from one corner. If you add some driftwood touches here touches there and group your rotala m. thicker and add more to the left I think you tank will really be . You could always finetune the foreground with more rock, etc.

In terms of equipment you could really hide alot of it behind the apons or eventually eliminate the reactor and heater (visually anyway)


Last edited by tetratech at 06-Jan-2006 12:49

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Tainted Glory
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I love keeping up with this tank! What size and overall shape of driftwood are you looking for. We employees get first crack at these things, you know! I usually buy awesome pieces, even if I have no intention of using it in the immediate future.
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tetratech - Thanks, I am working on it

Tainted Glory - Haven't seen you in a while . I am looking for branchy wood that I could arrange in a group. The ones I get to see in your store (after you guys pick up all the good pieces ) are not suitable. Here is why:

The section of wood that is in the Gravel and Rock isle (Malaysian, I think) has sometimes pieces with the right shape, but too small to make an impact in my tank.

The other pieces that you have in the parts section (usually inside the empty "for sale" tanks) are not suitable as they are too chunky.

Thanks,

Ingo


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A piece like THIS ONE would be great:

Ingo

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Weekly Tank Update – Week 15

I don’t like weekly maintenance and water changes and finally I figured out why: they make you look really close at your tank and any flaw seems major, even if it is not visible from just a yard away. Similar to these cosmetic mirrors that blow up the size of your face and every pore seems giant .

This week’s close-up observation was that my sags and chain swords are still showing some “melting” (see picture after the weekly full tank shots. It also seems that the Apon leaves are getting thinner and more yellowish. Hell, even the Glosso seems to be getting yellow. I believe it must have something to do with my recent mingling with fertilizers. I guess I ran the system to lean, now the question is which one is missing or maybe even what combination is missing. To counteract the melting I added a 3/4 tsp of KNO3 right away, also upped the TMG to a 20ml dosage. The plan for follow-up fertilization will change as follows:

KNO3: from 1/4tsp to 1/2tsp daily
Potassium Sulfate: stays at 1/8 daily
P: from nothing to 1/8 on day 3 and 5
TMG: from 10ml to 15ml daily

Otherwise, the tank is just growing fuller, two stems of the Macandra were trimmed as they reached the surface. Fish seem to be doing great and now that the fry are getting to be adults soon it worries me that I might have too many (not sure though). I might add the Pearls any times soon, although the male is very very territorial in the 20G and at least once in a while chases even the Platies away from the “center stage”. The female seems to be very fond of him as she rather often comes right back to him and offers him her throat and sides which he nips on gently, just to chase her away again afterwards. I figure he is just a teenager and doesn’t know how to treat a lady yet .

Weekly tank photos will be limited to 4, in 5 week increments. Then I have a few close-ups to show.

Ingo

Tank at setup:

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Week 5, pretty full but just the beginning of “having fun”

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Week 10, one of my favorite stages of the tank development, all looks very nice and balanced. Also look at that tiny plant in the front right corner, which is a small piece of Star Grass that I added from the 20G.

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Week 15, this weekend. Look at that front right section again, the Star Grass has grown quite nicely . Rock Valley on the other hand has completely lost the status of “focus point”. The group on the left with the Crypt Retro and Apons has taken all the attention.

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Here is a close-up of the Star Grass, I like it and I wouldn’t mind using it in other spots of the tank as a mid ground group.

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Can you see the bad shape that some of my sags/chain swords are in? Hopefully I can correct that.

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And how can we forget the main attraction in this tank, about 100 of these :

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Has anyone here ever seen plant photos from Robert Mapplethorpe? Anubias flowers really remind me of his art (not that I want to imply my photos are as good as his).

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Now here comes a segment of “Oto Mania”. The good thing about water changes is that I once in a while can count my Otos and check if all 6 are still alive. Now, for the first time, the guys were so nice to pose for a picture together:

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Then they ran off again but at least 5 stayed together for an additional shot:

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Then they changes direction and gave me one more good look before they decided that the party was over :

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Very nice pics LF, I particilarly like the anubias and the oto pics, yes during water changes I have counted all 9 of mine. I guess your having success with stargrass as well. I think the addition of my no3 will make the stargrass leaves even fuller and larger. Here's a pic of your's and mine.



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Yeah, the good old New Jersey Star Grass

I think one of the reasons yours looks fuller might be that:

a) Mine grows in the “low light” area of the tank, far away from the bulbs
b) Mine would look fuller if I had more light on them while taking the picture
c) A combination of a) and b)

But just like you I am scared to mess with the plant. No doubt it does way better when ferts are added and more light is available. The difference of the one in my 20G to this one is amazing, here it looks about 500% better (if such a subjective observation is measurable in the first place). I have a Red Rubin Sword to the right of the Macandra and I don’t think it does too much in my tank. I just might take it out and plant the Star Grass in the right back corner, with shorter elements slightly growing diagonally in front of the Macandra. If I ever dare to mess with the Star Grass, that is .

Another topic: I just fished the 2 Pearls out of the 20G QT (easier than I thought with all the plants in there) and have them in a bag floating in the 125G. I have my fingers crossed that they don’t drive my Espei insane. I guess this will also mean the end of major breeding, but I sure cannot complain about not having enough Espei as it is .

Wish me luck,

Ingo


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Congrats on the big day for the Pearls. I was wondering when you were going to turn them loose. I bet you'll still see fry every now and then, they cant get all of them...


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