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SubscribeLITTLE_FISH 125G Log
LITTLE_FISH
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
But on more then one occasion you have pulled up every plant in the tank
Well, I always left one group (at least) in its position

No, but seriously: If I ever wanted to have driftwood in the tank than the first major overhaul was the only way to do it. I don't think you would believe that this could have been achieved by removing only one plant at a time. And the second major overhaul was needed to add more plant mass. And that is it, I haven't done more than these 2 overhauls (although I feel like I am doing them on a weekly basis).

Thanks for the advice on "making slow changes", I will try to keep that in mind for the future. There is one thing that makes following this advice rather costly though: Almost all plants for my tank are ordered over the web (not the best local resources) and if I add only one plant at a time then I will have to pay loads of shipping until I have a new assortment.

Maybe it's time to add some Wisteria from the 20G QT to my tank.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 03-Apr-2006 10:58Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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LF,

Double dog dare you to join the wisteria club! The question is will you grow tall or lay low?

55G Planted tank thread
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Post InfoPosted 03-Apr-2006 12:59Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Too much changing and uprooting


LF, for what it's worth, I believe I'm in the same boat. My algae problems started after doing major overhauls, and they certainly seem to get worse after doing major overhauls... slowing down after several water changes etc. I'm right there with ya, lookin for the answer


Back in the saddle!
Post InfoPosted 03-Apr-2006 13:05Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
You guys are going to make me quote one of my favorite movies again "small moves, ellie, small moves"

I think Bensaf is probably on to something with the "extreme makeover" planted tank edition. I'm also wondering if the substrate has anything to do with it.
Is the lava-rock based eco complete a better bio-filter than a gravel/laterite mix. Lava rock is used in filters as a bio media.

What I'm getting at is the ability of the tank to decompose waste making it unavailable to algae through plant suck up and bio-filteration.

My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 03-Apr-2006 14:11Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Well it's more to do with stirring up mulm and NH4 from a mature substrate. Both are lovely algae treats

Plus the plants stall for a bit after a big move.

If you need to order lots of plants - stick them wherever there's space and then gradually move things/replace to the position you like.


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 03-Apr-2006 14:54Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
Well it's more to do with stirring up mulm and NH4 from a mature substrate. Both are lovely algae treats
.

Yes, but does the amount of biofileration in the substrate neutralize this algae treat. The "honeymoon" phase of the hobby is long gone, why not pack the tank (And I mean pack, densily plant wisteria, hygro, etc and see if it makes a difference and slowly remove them "small moves" over time until you have the look you want.

By the way whatever happened to Chaos Maximus?

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Post InfoPosted 03-Apr-2006 15:10Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Tetra, that's actually what I've been doing, pretty much letting the wisteria take over for a while. I wasn't able to do WCs last week because of the gourami eggs (by the way, the plant mass that the eggs were laid in got moved around by the current the other day and the bubblenest was destroyed. sad sight, but at least it let me do a water change) but I plan on doing a couple this week to pick up the excess mulm stirred up in the make-overs. As I said, i think LF and I are suffering from the same thing, because I know my EI routine is basically the same as yours, with lower numbers for the smaller tank.

and BTW, I sent Chaos a PM about 2 weeks ago and never got anything back


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Post InfoPosted 03-Apr-2006 15:35Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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I guess I will take out the pruning scissors then tonight and clip off some Wisteria from the 20G and add it to the big tank.

Also, my Alternanthera is getting too tall. I would assume that I simply can cut off the top and replant it (did that before) and leave the bottom part of the stem in to sprout again. What I don't know is if there is a rule (advice) as to the percentile to cut off, like 2/3 down the stem or something.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 03-Apr-2006 16:18Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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guess I will take out the pruning scissors then tonight and clip off some Wisteria

Ya know things can get kinda boring if everyone has all this wisteria in their tanks.

If anyone wants to order L.I. Wisteria and/or Willow Branches I'm selling.

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Post InfoPosted 03-Apr-2006 19:02Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Ya know things can get kinda boring if everyone has all this wisteria in their tanks


Well, why do you think I don't have any in my tank right now. The last thing I want is a beautiful tank that simply would be a copy of yours, not because your tank is not very nice, but how boring would that be?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 03-Apr-2006 19:18Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Just to chime in here: wisteria is a great stem plant becaus 1.) it fills up space and 2.) because although it grows fast, it doesn't grow so fast that it becomes weed-like, like hygro polysperma. if you have a better idea for a nutrient sucker then you let me know


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Post InfoPosted 03-Apr-2006 19:49Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
DeletedPosted 03-Apr-2006 19:54
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luvmykrib
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Hey Ingo, I noticed no-one answered your question about how much to pinch off, 2/3rds is a bit too much, the general rule of thumb for pruning land plants is 1/3. Same with roots, take about 1/3 of the roots when you re-plant, no more or the plant goes into shock/can't get enough nutrients to survive.

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Post InfoPosted 03-Apr-2006 20:45Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Yes, but does the amount of biofileration in the substrate neutralize this algae treat


Well mulm is just decomposing organic matter. As it de-composes it produces NH4. The decomposition is a gradual process, so no matter how good the bio filtration there will always be some NH4 as the mulm will continue to produce as it rots and the bacteria will consume what it can. Kick all this up into the water column.......

But it's not just NH4 , it's other things too, decomposing organics will also be producing carbon etc, nut in the minute quantities that are useless for plants but handy for algae.

An oft overlooked aspect of EI is the need to keep tank and equipment clean. There's a reason for that. I know LF does keep his stuff clean but these overhauls are kicking up a lot of stuff.

I'd definately try a few months of relative stability (still ok to add plants ) and see how it works out.

As for the algae on the the crypts etc, I'm not sure what the cause is. I used to have that kind of stuff years back in small quantities. But this was before I had Co2 and decent light. Never seen it in a Co2 tank.


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 04-Apr-2006 04:22Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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These are some of the claims that carib-sea makes about eco complete.

. Contains live Heterotrophic bacteria to rapidly convert fish waste into natural food for your aquatic plants

.Unsurpassed MacroPorosity for healthy roots and bacterial efficiency.

As I said, when I remove rocks and plants I see very little mess. That sounds like a logical outcome that would result from the above claims. I believe this, plus the 5" of wisteria covering 60% of my tank is helping with algae control. Also a while back when I left my filter off all nite I had no negative side effects.



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Post InfoPosted 04-Apr-2006 04:49Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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I'm sure it doesn't work much different from other subs. The important point is that the bad stuff is kept in the substrate and out of the water column. Heck Amano's powersand comes complete with Ammonia ! Should be algae/GW heaven right ? But once it's in the substrate and out of the water it's ok.

I guess it's another good reason to have herbivores like shrimp and snails. Clears up that rotting vegetation real quick.

I noticed in the past that has tanks got older and the mulm built up that algae was more difficult to keep at bay. Part of the reason I changed the substrate completely last year.

I find too that the smaller grains of substrate like the Eco or filter sand are easier to keep clean as the mulm tends to stay on top and is easy to suck out at water change. The bigger grains seems to trap more mulm in the bigger cracks and gaps in the gravel.

Notice LF has a bigger grain then us .......(that's NOT a cue to change the substrate, Ingo )


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 04-Apr-2006 08:30Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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that's NOT a cue to change the substrate, Ingo
Ok, I will try to restrain myself

Yeah, vacuuming the mulm of the gravel was almost impossible in the past as there were plants everywhere. Since the latest overhaul (2 weeks back) I have the front open and vacuum lightly the top of the gravel (don't want to dig in too deep to NOT stirr up some gunk). Nevertheless, this open area sees fast growing green threads on the gravel.

luvmykrib - Thanks for the trimming advice

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 04-Apr-2006 11:39Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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So back to my lighting theory.

How much for how long?

It seems that a lot of your plants now aren't really fast growers or real demanding of light. Such as your cyrpts and anubias.

Maybe do a low to mod light for most of the day with a kicker to high light for a couple hours in the afternoon would work better. That is if you are running high all the time. Isn't that what Ammato or whatever his name does?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 04-Apr-2006 17:19Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Wings,

Since pretty much the setup day (with a few mishaps, but none of these in the last 2 months):

Lighting Period 11h - 10AM to 9PM
Lights: 2x96W = 1.54wpg for 11h
4x96W = 3.07wpg for 3h starting at 1PM, ending at 4PM

What do you think?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 04-Apr-2006 17:28Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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Thats interesting...

Oh my 40G I am running 3.25 wpg all day... well about 12 hours a day. But I have different plants than you(the big three plants in my tank are hygro's and they are weeds).

Here is my resent thinking on things. (look out!)

Higher light = faster growth = more ferts being taken up.

So in my tank with high light for longer my plants are going to be driving full force all day and taking up more ferts in comparison to yours. I guess here is the punch line then: are you adding too much ferts for the lower light for most of the day + having a good hand full of plants that aren't sucking it up as fast(anubius and crypts?).

Just probably over thinking things... but its weird that I haven't had any major algae issues(yet..) Maybe you should email Tom and ask him whats up...

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 04-Apr-2006 21:50Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
Since were comparing lighting periods:

Lighting Period 11h - 9:30AM to 8:30PM
Lights: 1x96W = 1.33wpg (9:30AM to 11:30AM, 5:30PM to 8:30PM)
Lighting Period 7h - 11:30AM to 5:30PM
Lights: 2x96W = 2.67wpg for 6h


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Post InfoPosted 05-Apr-2006 03:10Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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are you adding too much ferts for the lower light for most of the day + having a good hand full of plants that aren't sucking it up as fast(anubius and crypts?).


After many thousands of posts and over a year of posting can we get off the too much ferts and "not sucking up" thing
It doesn't work that way. Excess ferts don't cause algae. Not all being "sucked up" doesn't cause algae. The whole point of EI is to dose an excess to make sure nothing runs out. Doesn't matter if they aren't all sucked up, no harm.

Looking at too much fert and you are barking up the wrong tree and will get nowhere. You will see toxicity and dead fish long before you see any algae with excess ferts.

The problem is elsewhere.

Lighting seems fine.

To remove existing algae without over trimming try a 3 day blackout. Should kill most of it if not all. Plants won't mind a bit, they'll be fine.

After blackout continue with normal dosing, you should have a stable regime by now. Keep everything stable for a couple of months. No major changes, add plants whenever you like. See how that works out.


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 05-Apr-2006 03:32Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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I strongly agree with Bensaf. I've been saying for a long time (look back at my posts) this is a waste / mass thing. Bensaf is being more specific and I believe has good insight on the "churning up" of this waste into the water column. I've been dosing 3/4 tsp no3, 5ml flourish fe everyday on top of 10ml flourish and I have not seen any hair or thread algae or any other type.

Consistent routine and small moves seem to be a hugh plus in keeping things clean and stable. It's been two weeks now since I cleaned bba off my main rock and I don't see any new growth yet. It may be too soon, but I honestly think I'm beating the bba in my tank without using excel.



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Post InfoPosted 05-Apr-2006 03:48Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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It's been two weeks now since I cleaned bba off my main rock and I don't see any new growth yet.




After Co2 the most important factor causing algae would be mulm - BBA can access the carbon from decomposing organics very very easily, far easier then plants. And we've already proved how important carbon is for BBA to flourish.

Tetra raises another valid point. He's adding what he's adding and not getting algae. So if high FE or high P causes algae why doesn't he have it, or me ?

If you suspect nutrients are the other folks adding the same amount having algae ? You can rule things out.

In LF's case we can rule out nutrients (or least excess nutrients). So what does that leave ......
Light? Well can you reduce that to just running the 1.5 watts for the entire period. See what that does, that will rule that out. But I don't that's an issue really , but it can be proved one way or the other easily.

Co2? Easy to prove - turn it up.

That just leaves stability. Well we know how to handle that, so try and see how that works. It's another thing that can be proved/ruled out.

After that there's not much left.




Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 05-Apr-2006 08:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Blackout, haven't thought about that option in a long time, so long that I actually forgot that it can help killing existing algae. Guess I get too old to remember such things .

Anyway, here is a poll.
I received my diffusers yesterday. I am not sure about their quality though, they are made in China. Also, why is an 8 coil better than the short one? So, the poll is as follows - Next Step should be:

1) Add plants (Wisteria and such) and leave everything else the same
2) Change to the Diffuser (8 coil) and leave everything else the same
3) Change to the Diffuser and add plants and leave everything else the same
4) Don't change anything and do a 3 day blackout first, then add plants only
5) Don't change anything and do a 3 day blackout first, then change to the Diffuser only
6) Don't change anything and do a 3 day blackout first, then change to the Diffuser and add plants
7) Other, please explain

Which one of these options do you think I should attempt?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 05-Apr-2006 11:28Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Oh,

I almost forgot. Here is a picture of the diffuser shipment. The larger ones state "Made in China" the smaller ones say nothing about where they have been produced, and acrually one of them seems to have a crack. Plus, I could swear that the small ones advertised had 3 coils while the ones delivered have none. I will have to check the site again.

Are they any worse than the ones you guys run?

Attached Image:

Diffuser Shipment



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Post InfoPosted 05-Apr-2006 11:31Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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EditedEdited by Wingsdlc
I vote #6. Kill off the bad stuff. Then start preventing it with the better CO2 and plants.

BTW, the one on the left is the one that I have. Seems to be working ok but I am not overly impressed with the bubble size even after the bleach baths.

Edit:
Sorry about taking steps back....

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 05-Apr-2006 14:46Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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OK,

That is one vote for lights-out first and then plants/diffuser and no vote for anything else .

If possible then I would like to know within the next 10 hours if there are more opinions as I would start the lights out tomorrow (Thursday) and end it three days later (Sunday). Whis way I will have the time to do a water change right away when the black-out ends.

And just to know: I guess I simply unplug lights and CO2. Do I throw a blanket over the tank to shade it from even room light?

Thanks in advance,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 06-Apr-2006 00:45Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Well, I don't know if I could pick a number but since algae won't grow in a blackout why not clean up the tank throughly before the blackout, this way when you turn on the lights the tank will already be pretty clean.

So I would suck all the gunk, trim plants, etc. and then lights out. Then I would have wisteria or other good plants at the ready. Plant densely, you have the lights to support that.

I would definitely use the diffusor. It's more efficient I believe than that big reactor, so unnecessary. The difference between your reactor and the diffusor is like the difference between an old b&W TV and a plasma.

BTW - While your tank is blacked out it will give you an opportunity to scape your 29G.

My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 06-Apr-2006 01:05Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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I vote for no light. Don't give the aglae anything to work with.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 06-Apr-2006 02:11Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
dan76
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i reckon you should give the tank a clean first and then do no 6.

ps i dont know if i made the 10 hr time limit but its only thurs morning here

OH TOLEEDY!
Post InfoPosted 06-Apr-2006 02:46Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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I've tried the big Boyu one. It works just fine. The bigger one is supposed to be for bigger tanks. The marketing says the longer shape keeps the co2 in contact with water longer. pile of crap to be honest. The small one work just as good IMO. I changed to a smaller one just to take up less space but keep the Boyu as my back-up in case I drop the small one or do something else stupid.

Why'd you get 4 BTW ? Are you going to split the Co2 line , run all 4 ? If running 2 try a mix of the big and small see if there's any difference or which you like best.

Don't forget to fill them with water. This you will find remarkably difficult Let them soak in a container of water for a few hours/days , they'll eventually fill.

For the blackout it should be complete, not even room lights so cover the tank or keep basement lights off. Switch off Co2 of course.

Personally I'd do the blackout then clean up, water change and add plants and diffusers immediately after , then regular dosing maintenance for a few weeks and see how it goes. Works ok then gradually play with your scape . Add plants whenever but removal of plants or movements of groups of plants should be steady and gradual.




Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 06-Apr-2006 03:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Why'd you get 4

Cause LF is an ANIMAL!

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Post InfoPosted 06-Apr-2006 04:10Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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EditedEdited by mattyboombatty
Votes For: Leave it alone.

For what it's worth, (I know I'm not one of your trusted cabinet members, sitting on the fence between the light and dark side) I agree with everyone a few pages back. Too much tinkering. Let it settle into a groove for a few weeks(let Stella, obvious choice of name for your tank, get her proverbial groove back). Keep the ferts in there and the CO2 up, and wait it out. That's what I did, except I turned my CO2 down, which brings me to my other point - my home made external reactor can kick your diffusers butt. Try getting 40ppm of CO2 using less than 1 bubble per second with the diffuser. Besides, it makes for nice white noise when you have loud people in your apartment. Between the nice bubbling of my CO2 reactor, and the slurping sound of my overflow on the salt tank I have no trouble motivating myself to go number 1.

I finally believe in most of the EI teachings(MOST MOST!). This is hard for me to say....I've been against it for quite some time. I remember seeing bensaf's tank right when he first logged onto FP and muttering to myself and shaking my fist at my plants. His green thumb is only bested by his ability to turn a glass box into a beautiful underwater forest scene (my thumb on the otherhand, brown as it is, is equalled by my lack of vision). My first two attempts at EI were very unsuccessful though. The first time I blame completely on inconsistant CO2, the second I went too much by the books. Now I have my own tweaks and what not of the basic formula, but I can't argue with the recent proof in my tank. It looks pretty dang good. And the plants have color. My plants looked at least as bad as yours, LF, and I never scrubbed anything(except glass and plastic things), uprooted a single plant, or blacked out the tank. I just turned the photoperiod down(more wiggle room), put the ferts in, and let it get it's groove. I'd say it's taken a month and a half just keeping things normal for it to come around. I think you should try that as well. It might be too hard for you to leave it alone though.



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Post InfoPosted 06-Apr-2006 06:24Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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After many thousands of posts and over a year of posting can we get off the too much ferts and "not sucking up" thing
It doesn't work that way.


Do you think we'll ever get it?

Votes For: Drives Bensaf nuts before we get it



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Post InfoPosted 06-Apr-2006 06:35Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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Votes For: Drives Bensaf nuts before we get it


Oh Matty, they drove me nuts loooonnngggg ago. Many's the night I spent banging my head against the apartment wall 'cos it felt more productive then dealing with my "sons" (although I have a couple of daughters now )


Nice to see you pop back, when you gonna give up playing with those darn sea rocks and come back to the color and glory of the underwater forest ?


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Well, I was afraid that when I open my log this morning I will find a) no responses or b) varying suggestions. In good old fish/plant keeper fashion you followed path b) .

I guess the first step in the learning process (for the 100th time) is patience and as such I decided not to rush things. My tank will not turn into a monster if I wait one more week and discuss the topic a little more with you folks - if you don't mind.

Basically what I get is that I should add plants and switch to the diffuser. And most (except Matty) suggest a balck-out. Let me (us) think about it some more, but I guess in the meantime I should not add plants as they would potentially be exposed to the black-out before they can settle.

Why did I get 4 diffusers? That is easy to answer - because I can .

No, seriously, in no particular order:

- I pay shipping once
- I wasn't clear what the output difference between a large one and a small one was (like Bensaf, I also questioned why the coils would do anything)
- I want to keep the option open to split the line (discussed somewhere like 30 pages back) and use the same diffuser type on both ends
- I also played with the thought that I may use 2 different sizes on a split line
- If I don't split the line then I have the option to alternate the diffuser, meaning I don't have to change them during water change and putting in a clean one takes less than a minute
- Last but not least, like Bensaf I believe that having a backup cannot harm in case I drop one

Matty: thanks for the input . Leaving the tank alone was pretty much what I tried to do after the first overhaul, maybe not for long enough though. I couldn't wait any longer then as the threads where really kicking into gear and threatened to take over completely. I am worried that I am at a similar stage now. During your month and a half of letting things settle - did the algae increase, and if so by how much?

Dan: You sure made the 10 hour time limit . Thanks for the input, you should add your wisdom more often.

Ok, thanks again for all the input (to the regular participants in this log as well),

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 06-Apr-2006 11:27Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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when you gonna give up playing with those darn sea rocks and come back to the color and glory of the underwater forest ?


Ahhh, I think I'm hooked, unfotunately. Check out this new coral I got(none of my plants come close to that color):

ooooh, aahhhhh

During your month and a half of letting things settle - did the algae increase, and if so by how much?


Some algae increased, like the green puffball type, and the BBA. I also had some green spaghetti type stuff, it looked like I accidentally dropped some algae(chaetomorpha or brillo pad) from my "sea rocks" into my planted tank. I've never seen that in a freshwater tank before(and I thought I'd seen ALL the algae). It was pretty easy to pull out, and I don't see it anymore.

The last week saw the decrease of those, with only the stubborn BBA still holding on in a few places. If I would just go in there and trim it out it would probably be gone forever. Might do that saturday on water change day.

Unfortunately (for your knowledge purposes) the thread algae disappeared really quick. Maybe in two weeks. I'm sure it was a lack of nitrates that caused them in my tank. Coulda been a lack of PO4 or anything else, the tank totally bottomed out, but I've never had a problem with that particular algae and I've always had nitrates, up until I traded my angels.

If I were you I'd turn the photoperiod down to 9 hours with 2 lights and 2 hours with 4 lights. Keep up with the dosing and water changes for a couple weeks. If there's no improvement in algae(the plants will probably suffer a little), I won't argue with the blackout. IMO though, it's not a cure to the problem. It's a quick fix, and the algae will come back. They've been around long enough to be able to survive that sort of thing. Especially for only 3 days.



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Post InfoPosted 06-Apr-2006 16:49Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by bensaf
Check out this new coral I got(none of my plants come close to that color):


Nah, looks like an infection I once had, a dose of penicillin cleared it right up

I have a friend here who owns the biggest marine aquarium shop in Indonesia (he's a westerner too) , tons of great stuff. Prices are unreal, you'll cry at how cheap things are and of course everything is caught locally so it's "fresh" as fresh can be almost the same as popping out for quick scuba and collecting your self.

BTW $1 = 9,000 Indonesian Rupiah
www.aquarium-laut.com

I've been tempted to give it a shot but don't have enough time.


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Post InfoPosted 07-Apr-2006 03:49Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by mattyboombatty
Dang, I saw some stuff for 10usd that would be 5-6 times that much here. Not fair man. I think I'm going to move out there. I didn't happen to see any blasto's like mine though. They aren't too common, I've been waiting around for months for some like these.

Nah, looks like an infection I once had, a dose of penicillin cleared it right up






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No other comment to Bensaf's infections

So, tomorrow during the water change I will exchange the reactor with the diffuser. I envision to place it rather low on the left glass panel, in the middle between back and front. Way up on that panel sits the spray bar. I think the bubbles should get caught in the current from that bar and be dispersed throughout the tank.

Sounds right?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 07-Apr-2006 11:00Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Bensaf,

I am so going to have to use that one at work on the SW geeks!

LF,

I think you are on the right track. What are you thinking for the black out or no black out?


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Post InfoPosted 07-Apr-2006 14:46Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Wings,

Good that you bring up the blackout again, as we hopefully still have Matty's attention:

Matty - I take it that you don't think the blackout would do anything good at all. I understand what you mean when you say that algae is around for quite a while and will come back when the situation is right again. The question I have to you now is: Do you mean literally that the same algae is coming back or that new algae will be back because conditions haven't changed? My solemn reason for the blackout would be to get rid of existing algae as I cannot remove my hardscape without making a major mess again. Changing to another CO2 distribution method (diffuser) and upping my P are the counter measures taken to make the environment more hostile to new algae. Under these conditions, do you still think that a blackout would be useless and if so then why?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 07-Apr-2006 14:56Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by mattyboombatty
What I mean is that under no light conditions you will kill algae, yes. This might help you get an edge on it. I've only heard a blackout work long term a couple times, and that was because the tank conditions had changed before the blackout in a way such as to discourage their growth permanently. In those cases, had they not used the blackout, I beleive patience would have served just fine, because conditions were growing harsh for the algae.

Just my opinion, but it's a quick fix, a band-aid, duct tape. There is no way to eliminate algae from your tank. There's some in mine(obviously). There's some in bensaf's tank. Amano has it, just like everyone else. It's waiting for the right conditions to spring up. The blackout will also have an effect on your plants. They won't like the dark either, but they won't die(hopefully). However, they will stunt a little, stop growing, and what do we know happens when plants stop growing? The door is wide open for algae, it's just about who recovers quicker. If the conditions are right for plants, you get a leg up on the algae. If the conditions are the same, the outcome is the same as before. If in fact, the conditions favor algae, a blackout can be bad news, and I've had a costomer experience that, didn't sound pretty.

The best thing about working at an LFS is that you can give people the facts and some will take it one way, and others will go a different route. You get to see what happens under a lot of different circumstances in a very short amount of time. It's like having 100 tanks to play with(but you don't have to pay for it). People that tend to make headway are the people that turn the lights down a notch(able to turn up later bit by bit), add more plant mass, more CO2, balanced nutrients(it's very hard to explain the thoughts behind EI in 5-10 minutes), and do water changes regularly.

I had a guy with a 55 tank and the 4 foot coralife fixture(I admit that I forget the wattage maybe 130?), no CO2 and dirty fish. He really wanted live plants so I pointed him to a bunch of types and told him the more plants you get the easier it will be, and to get a lot of fast growers. Against my wishes, he picked maybe 6 different plants, mostly slow growers. He went home and set the lights on for 12 hours. We all know what happened here. So he comes back and asks why it happened. Good guy. Most costomers throw fits and make children cry(yes, some lfs workers don't know everything, but the average costomer is far worse than any lfs worker who doesn't know the scientific name and max growth of every fish in the store). After explaining things a little I sent him home with 10 bunches of stem plants and some anacharis. When he got home he turned the lights down to 9 hrs. He thought the anacharis was the ugliest thing he'd ever seen. Now it's his favorite joke, something like it's growing out of the tank and eating the pets and different pet shop of horrors type stuff. Nowadays(2 months later) I ask him how his algae is doing and all he has to complain about is the anacharis. -The End

EDIT: Oh, and I'm not suggesting you go get a ton of anacharis, though it would probably have a good effect, it's just the plant mass reliable growth thing.

EDIT: And by the "they've been around long enough" I meant the billions of years of evolution thing(not in your tank). Algae and cockroaches are prepared for armageddon. We can't kill it, only maybe contain it. You know if people can't kill something, it's hardy.



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Post InfoPosted 07-Apr-2006 16:13Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Well Matty,

You for sure presented some very convincing and encouraging point

And I also understood what you meant with algae being around a long time (I already understood the first time you said it).

That is exactly the reason why I decided not to rush the situation with the blackout last Wednesday night. Input like yours is too valuable to come to late.

Thanks again,

Ingo

EDIT: Oh, and before I forget: this customer with the plant/algae issue, he thinks anacharis (egeria najas/densa) is the ugliest plant? Has he seen Hornwort?


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Post InfoPosted 07-Apr-2006 16:34Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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And I also understood what you meant with algae being around a long time (I already understood the first time you said it)


oops I misread your post, I thought you thought it mattered how long it had been in you tank....my mistake.

That is exactly the reason why I decided not to rush the situation with the blackout last Wednesday night. Input like yours is too valuable to come to late.


Well thanks, and I'm glad I checked in here when I did then. I just think there's a better way to get things done, as long as the plants are still healthy and growing, that's less risky and damaging. You can always try the blackout down the road if you can't get things fixed.

BTW is there any flow/filtration on the right side of your tank?



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Post InfoPosted 07-Apr-2006 16:48Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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EDIT: Oh, and before I forget: this customer with the plant/algae issue, he thinks anacharis (egeria najas/densa) is the ugliest plant? Has he seen Hornwort?







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Post InfoPosted 07-Apr-2006 16:49Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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BTW is there any flow/filtration on the right side of your tank?


Not currently.

Twice I used to have a powerhead on that side blowing water to the left. My assumption was that maybe this side is stale and that's why I have problems, but:

- It did never make a difference either way, even when the powerhead was humming for weeks
- I have at least as much algae on the left than the right
- I kind off like the idea (tell me if it is a bad one) that there are areas in the tank with less current as some fish may like to hang out without having to paddle the whole time. Interestingly, I have usually as many fish on the left than the right, except when they see me - then they all come to the left where I feed them.

Oh, off topic. In recent days I have noticed an increase in Espei active schooling, as in patrolling the tank as a gang. I attribute it to the fact that the younger ones are now old enough to be fully accepted by the seniors and that I have 30 fish less, aka some space to actually swim to where there are no other fish.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 07-Apr-2006 18:15Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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wow i must say this tank has been threw so much and looks great.
NICE JOB LF!!
i do have to say that i cant wait till the dwarf cichlids get in there...hope u get some babies here soon!
i think maybe a small addition of some pink on the other side of the tank would be nice( by the anubias) or placing the rotala in the middle...in my opinion it would be more of an eye catcher that way.
is all the algae gone now besides the small spot you like? well LF im glad to see the tank is comming along(and cant wait to see what more comes to be)i saved the one picture of the before and after together as my background on my computer...you have inspired me to make my 29-gallon( yes much smaller) tank a beautiful display tank for some of the smaller rainbows and such...GET BACK SOON WANNA HERE MORE!!!
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bratyboy2,

What a nice comment. You made me the biggest compliment I can get, being an inspiration to others is a major accomplishment for me. And if your tank looks prettier in the end than mine then I will have to kill you .

Actually, I will add some pink (purple) to the left of the Anubias group today as I will have to trim the Alternanthera on the way right and the tops go to the left to grow out.

You mention that I should put the Rotala in the middle. I don't think I have Rotala in my tank since quite a while, which plant do you mean?

Sadly, the algae is not gone, read through the last maybe 30 entries (since the last weekly update) to get all the details. But I am working on it .

Thank you so much again,

Ingo


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I just finished my weely water change, pictures of it will be posted tomorrow as I have to wait to take them until all the bubbles are gone.

I have overall more discouraging news with regards to the algae. When I looked closely through the tank to detect dead leaves etc., I discovered that the driftwood is beginning to be covered with BBA, loads of small gray bushels in particular on the upper half of the wood. This is so demotivating.

I also added the glass diffuser, it took me about half an hour until I finaly had all the air out, there was only a tiny bit left. I started it up after the water change and had to move it a few times until it was positioned that most bubbles will be caught in the current of the spray bar. Now, in this position it is a little angled, the top is more towards the left glass panel than the bottom. Is that a problem? Also, I noticed that now I have gas and not water in the upper region of it, down to the uppermost coil. Is that a problem? And, bubbles do not come out from the entire ceramic plate but only from part of it. Again, is that a problem?

Cheers, your frustrated Ingo

Attached Image:

Diffuser in action



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Post InfoPosted 08-Apr-2006 23:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by tetratech
Hey LF

BBA on wood:
I have/had that for a long time now, but in your case if the wood isn't removable (practical) than you'll have to wait to you beat it back. I would just stay on course and ignore it. Keep co2 way up and plant densly. Keep feeding minimal, the fish will be fine. Mine has definitely slowed or stopped since I don't see new bba growth on my rocks

Glass Diffusor:
It's normal when you first start to use it to only have bubbles coming thru from part of it. As it's (primeed) the whole thing should work.

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I have been running my GD for a few weeks now and it is still only coming from part of it.

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Thanks you two for the input on the glass diffuser and tetratech also for the info on the BBA. I tried to get a picture of it but there were still too many bubbles (may have been CO2 bubbles from the diffuser already) to get a clear shot of it.

Weekly Tank Update - Week 28

This week was more about discussions of a potential black-out then it was about tank changes. Not much had happened, except that I observed the thread algae is still multiplying and to top it off yesterday's discovery of large numbers of tiny BBA bushels on the driftwood.

Certain plants in the tank are still growing strong, as usual leading the way are the Star Grass (grew back to the top) and the Pearl Grass. Maybe I should get more plants that have the word "Grass" in their common name as they seem to be doing excellent in my tank . I also observe new leaves on the Anubias Nana and Barteri group, it seems they are doing ok now after I treated them so badly during my last major overhaul (out of the water for hours).

I trimmed two stems of the Alternanthera and planted them on the left, also two small bushels of Wisteria have been added from the 20G (couldn't get more out, growth in that tank is really slow). The mother crypts that have been added a week and a half ago still show signs of melting, in particular the red ones.

The glass diffuser was also added to replace the reactor. I am not sure, but last evening, about 4 hours after the change, the top half of the tank was full of bubbles. This could still be from the water change, although I have never observed this previously. Today, I will have to keep an eye open for the ph. I also upped my dosage of Baking Soda, without measuring I would say that it should be around 4 to 5 by now, I will check later. Also, I upped the dosage of Equilibrium to about 1.5tsp, I figured it cannot harm, right?

On to the pictures. First I will show 4 full tank shots in 3 week gaps since I changed the tank to contain the driftwood. In addition, I only have 2 detail shots to show, I didn't feel like bothering you with more details on algae-covered plants, you have seen enough of these already.

So, here is the tank 9 weeks ago right after the driftwood had been added:

Attached Image:

Tank 9 Weeks Ago



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Post InfoPosted 09-Apr-2006 12:11Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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3 Weeks later, all plants seemed (from the distance) to be still going strong. But when closer observed, the Macandra started to stall, the Retrospiralis - previously split from one plant plug into multiple - started to have dying leaves and thread algae, and the Anubias on the right became covered in threads.

Also, more and more threads were observed on the other surfaces, like glass, gravel, and wood:

Attached Image:

Tank 6 Weeks Ago



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Post InfoPosted 09-Apr-2006 12:15Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Another 3 weeks later, the tank had seem its next major overhaul. This was an attempt to reduce the by now rampant growth of the thread algae and to reduce the number of dying plants, in particular the Retrospirals but also most very tall Narrow Leaf Saggitarias.

In this stage the tank had probably the lowest plant mass since maybe week 2 after setup. Guess it makes sense that algae started to have a field day.

Attached Image:

Tank 3 Weeks Ago



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Here is the tank now from last night, after the water change and general maintenance.

I like the way the trimmed tops of the Alternanthera create a color pocket on the left side. Would be nice if they settle and I could create a whole group of them over there (not too tall though). The Pearl Grass also could have used a trimming, but I decided to let it grow to maintain more plant mass. These days, the tank is less about beauty then it is about not losing it completely.

Attached Image:

Tank Now



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Now on to the two close-ups.

Nothing special really. The first one shows one of the two small Wisteria bushels that have been added. You can see the bubbles on the Pearl Grass next to it and on the Wisteria itself. I don't know if they are still from the water change or already the result of the switch to the diffuser:

Attached Image:

Tiny Wisteria



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The last picture for now shows the left 4th of the tank. Please observe how high up I have placed the diffuser. I initially had it lower but then the bubbles would hit the spray bar more on its back and go to the surface directly, without being washed through the tank. Also, you can see the the diffuser's top is closer to the left than the bottom (the left edge of the picture is the glass). I had to make sure that the plate area is not too close to the glass, for the same reasons as above. BTW, the holders for the diffuser are normal air line sucktion cups and don't really seem to fit the diameter of the glass tube. They barely can reach half around the tube.

In the front of the tank you can see the Pearl Grass, followed by the new Wisteria, and to the right the thread algae covered crypts. The Ludwigia in the back is becoming stronger, it also was grown from small clippings of the 20G. In the midground is a red Wendtii and the tops from the Alternanthera:

Attached Image:

Left Tank with Diffuser



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Post InfoPosted 09-Apr-2006 12:34Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Tanks looking good Algae is certainly not obvious from the pics.

What you are seeing with the diffuser is all normal. You just running one ? Checked Co2 yet ? I'd be interested in how one of them does in such a big tank ! Maybe check the far side of t5ank too to make sure it's spreading out nicely.


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Post InfoPosted 09-Apr-2006 15:54Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
bensaf,

Thanks for the input. Yeah, maybe I should specialize in taking pictures from far away .

I haven't measured anything yet, but I will do within the next 30 min. The lights in the tank went on about 30 min ago and I already seem to observe (or maybe I have noticed it before) that the Rainbows are huddling together, without moving much around. The far side of the tank appears to actually get more bubbles then the side on which the diffuser sits. The spray bar current blows them all over to the other side where there is little current.

Makes me quite nervous, this diffuser thing. I would almost assume that I will have to reduce the bubble rate, which now is still almost a solid stream.

Thanks again,

Ingo

EDIT: Ah - and congrats on the 10 Gold Starts, Bensaf /:'


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Post InfoPosted 09-Apr-2006 16:29Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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OK,

Just measured the tank parameters and I came up with results that seem a little off:

KH - maybe 4.5 dH - seems about right given that I added more Baking Soda than usual
ph - 7 - that is the odd one as 7 is my tab ph. Could it be that my water change from yesterday had raised the ph although the reactor and later the diffuser were humming all day? I will check again in a while just to make sure I got the right reading.

Here is a shot of the way right side of the tank, top area. All the white dots are CO2 bubbles:

Attached Image:

CO2 on the right



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Post InfoPosted 09-Apr-2006 17:01Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
LF,
I agree, I like the pocket of color you have on the left I personally would like to see the red plant on the right moved inward somewhat. don't make the corners any higher.

Whenever you can, trim! Doesn't trimming intiate even more growth (one step back, two step forward) that will get the plants sucking up more.

By the evening my entire water surface is a pretty much solid mass of tiny bubbles. It made me nervous at first but I see no effect on the fish. Remember co2 doesn't displace o2.


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LITTLE_FISH
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tetratech,

Thanks for the confirmation on the diffuser stuff, I am glad that I am not the only worried one when setting up the bubble machine. About moving the right hand Alternanthera more to the middle - maybe some day, but for now things are only being moved to add new plants for extra suckage of Nutrients .

I just measured the ph again, 4 hours later than the last time. It is now at about 6.8 with a slight tendency to less. Now the main lights in the tank will come on. Babies, let's grow

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 09-Apr-2006 19:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
So, another 4 hours later than the last test, I did another two - one on each side of the tank. Both panned out with a ph of about 6.6 maybe a little less.

This should give me about 33ppm of CO2, that would be pretty much where I would like it to be. If I remember then I will test one more time around 9, just before lights out.

Ingo

EDIT: Oh, and I do not see any bubbles on the plants.


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Post InfoPosted 09-Apr-2006 23:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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LF,
It is really tricky getting the right setting with your CO2. When I first got my diffuser I had tons of bubbles too! Since then I have turned it down a bit because I was getting my ppm up to around 50 or so. Now I don't seem to have the bubble thing going on.

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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Thanks Wings,

Last night I checked my ph again and it seemed to have stabilized at around 6.6, meaning I still had a CO2 saturation of around 33ppm. This is more than I had before because, albeit I frequently had this ph, I upped the KH by about 1dH.

The thing that puzzles me about these observations is that I cannot explain why my ph was 7 in the morning. I had CO2 running the day before, except for the maybe 1.5 hours during maintenance. Given that 7 is my tab value, I would assume that my ph at lights out must have been lower than that. Now, having had 7 in the morning, wouldn't that mean that my plants haven't produced any CO2 all night long? Or did they and the surface agitation from the spray bar made it all evaporate? Very confusing

I also sat back last night and observed the fish for a while, just to make sure they are ok. Well, all seems fine to me, although they all stayed mostly in the lower parts of the tank. It is always nice to see the different characters of my fishies, the Pearls slowly parading, the Rainbows playing chase with each other and then regrouping with the Pearls for a while to rest, the Espei forming a school of about 15 to 20, going from left to right (or the other way), finding there more of their kind and breaking out of school mode, and the Otos - well they are eating .

I cannot count how many Espei are in there, but for sure still enough that the there is basically not one area of the tank where there are none. Maybe I should think about trading in another 20 or so.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 10-Apr-2006 11:09Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Makes me quite nervous, this diffuser thing. I would almost assume that I will have to reduce the bubble rate, which now is still almost a solid stream.


Well doesn't everything worry you Ingo ?

Actually you ,ay have to use less gas I certainly found the diffusers so efficient I had to drop the bubble rate a little.
Measuring pH just before lights on is the worst time to test. Just after lights on at best.
Even at over 30ppm once the gas is switched off the Co2 in the tank will evaporate in a few hours going into equilibrium with the athmosphere. The plants don't produce that Co2 at night ! So testing pH to calculate Co2 content is worthless before lights on, yes the tank water would be at almost tap level.
If you are hitting 30ppm at lights off after a day of the plants using the Co2 then you know you are good.

Good to see the diffusers work on even such a large tank.

EDIT: Ah - and congrats on the 10 Gold Starts, Bensaf


Thanks . only took 2 years At least I won't have to do that darn quiz again


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Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 10-Apr-2006 11:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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At least I won't have to do that darn quiz again


That's how I feel as well. Now let's see when tetratech reveals his "real" star count. I bet you not before he has 10 as well.

About the ph test. The first one yesterday in the morning was right after lights on (maybe 20 min into the lighting period).

Interesting, so you say the CO2 that is produced by plants would not read as a measurable ph influence? Can you explain that a little more?

And about the worrying: You know me so well . I tjust makes my day when I have something to worry about. And my tank as never failed me so far.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 10-Apr-2006 11:58Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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I tjust makes my day when I have something to worry about. And my tank as never failed me so far.


I think Ingo secretly sabotages his own tank, so he has something to worry about.



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Post InfoPosted 10-Apr-2006 18:00Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Yeah, I sabotage my tank (and my spelling ) on purpose, you found me out, Matty .

I wish you were right. The thought that some people may not take my concerns serious anymore (may I say cry wolf) has for sure crossed my mind.

But bear with me, I am really trying to have an algae and problem free tank, just like the rest of you.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 10-Apr-2006 19:06Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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Hey Ingo

Your tank is looking great. I can see that I am not the only worry wort though

Cheers
TW
Post InfoPosted 11-Apr-2006 00:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Interesting, so you say the CO2 that is produced by plants would not read as a measurable ph influence? Can you explain that a little more?


They just don't produce enough Co2 to make a noticable difference. Heck if they did we wouldn't need these fancy gas tanks, every aquarium with plants would have 30ppm of Co2 in the morning !

Co2 dissipates pretty quickly. Turn off your gas and see how quickly the pH goes back to tap value. Even at 30ppm it only takes a ciuple of hours to go back to 2ppm. That's why we have to keep it flowing during the lighting period.

On your non Co2 planted tanks - does the ph drop by 1 full point during the night? No, right ? Maybe by 0.1 or 0.2 this pretty much teels you how much co2 the plants produce at night. About 2-3ppm. Also shows you how pointless the "should I run my co2 at night" "should I run an airstone at night"discussions are !!!

Long story short, testing pH before gas/lights on is fruitless if your purpose is to check Co2. You need to wait a few hours for the gas to kick in, just before lights out is the ideal time to test.


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Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 11-Apr-2006 03:48Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks Robyn for letting me know that I am not the only one of my kind here . I was even worried about you running this marathon. How did that go?

Thanks Bensaf for the info on the CO2 at night. I would assume that the ph swing at night in natural waters depends, besides the plant mass, on the water flow, meaning still waters should have a larger swing (down) than flowing water, right? This also made me realize that we, in out tanks, actually turn the natural ph swing upside-down. While in nature the ph should be higher during the day, it is the time when we lower it.

Different topic:

Last evening I went to the LFS and got lucky and purchased 6 small stems of Wisteria, plus one other plant that I would like you to help me on a positive ID. I currently just "threw" them in the tank, it was late, and will properly plant them tonight. I most likely will take out my Red Rubin Sword and put them in its place. That plant received a heavy trimming (during my masive make-over) because so many older leaves where full of threads. Also, it went through a quick bleach dip at the same time. Now, most leaves are really thin and algae infested yet again. Only the new growth is ok, and it takes up a lot of real estate that I need more now for fast growers.

Anyway, here is a shot of 4 parked Wisteria stems

Attached Image:

Parked Wister I



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Post InfoPosted 11-Apr-2006 11:11Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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And here are the other 2. I actually think that they don't look all that bad in this spot. But I know that soon they would grow so big that you cannot see the other plants behind it anymore (and shading would set in as well).

Attached Image:

Parked Wister II



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LITTLE_FISH
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Last but not least, here is a shot of the plant that I mentioned earlier.

I bought two stems that were labeled "Narrow leaf Hygro". I believe the plant is Hygrophila augustifolia, is that correct? Either way, what do you know about it? I would assume it is a fast grower, it is a hygro. How do you replant/trim this plant? Do you know of any problems with it?

Thanks in advance,

Ingo

EDIT: Oh - and don't forget to admire the Espei

Attached Image:

Hygrophila augustifolia ???



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Post InfoPosted 11-Apr-2006 11:15Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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I bought two stems that were labeled "Narrow leaf Hygro". I believe the plant is Hygrophila augustifolia, is that correct? Either way, what do you know about it? I would assume it is a fast grower, it is a hygro. How do you replant/trim this plant? Do you know of any problems with it?


You should pay more attention to my pics

Yes it's Augustifolia. Been in every tank I've ever had. Probably my most favorite plant. Nothing but good things to say about it.

It's a very easy very fast grower and a stunningly beautiful plant. Give it lots of room !The leaves can get to almost a foot long.

One thing I really love about it - it branches so easily. It will produce 2 new branches at almost every single internode, so it becomes very very bushy quickly. Very thick almost woody stems.

It grows so fast, branches so easily that propogation is adoddle. You could literally have enough to fill the entire tank in a couple of months. You'll be throwing away buckets of the stuff.

Give it a location it deserves. It appreaciates a bit of flow so the leaves can sway outwards and catch the light. Not overyly important in terms of growth but brings out the best in looks. The leaves are a lovely deep green with a bright silver underside.

Best used to really fill out a corner section or as big solitary display. It's a magnificent plant and needs to be allowed to shine.

Just to remind you , mine is filling out the entire left corner in the pic and this was just after atrim ! Started out with one little stem. I think it was pretty much the first plant I ever bought years ago and there it is still going strong, will survive anything!!!

Great indicator for Nitrate or potassium. The lower leaves never drop off unless nitrate is low, also if potassium is low it will be the first to show holes in the old leaves.




Attached Image:



Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

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Post InfoPosted 11-Apr-2006 15:46Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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You should pay more attention to my pics


But in my defense, I have to say that you did not give yours a prominent spot, so it wasn't easy to detect. Also, it is not that easy to remember the name of the about 50 plant species that you collected just in that one tank .

Thanks Bensaf , I guess I made a good purchase then. I like the way ot looks as well and will put it in the spot where the Red Rubin is right now (as I don't want to uproot too many plants for this latest addition. Also in that area will be the new Wisteria stems. I hope it is not too crowded there. We will know more about it tonight - in any case, there is no way that I will make these additions another major replant event, they will have to fit somewhere convenient.

Ingo


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bensaf
 
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Ok you're forgiven.

It should work well in that spot. It contrasts pretty well with Wisteria as you can see above.

On the trimming - you can do it either way. It'll branch out no matter what you do.

At this stage I usually pull up and trim the bottom. It rpoduces really thick white roots at the bottom section of the stem above the gravel which can get messy. Never seen a plant produce so may roots so quickly. Also I'll usually have a few nice sized branches at the bottom (there will be branches all over - but obviously the lower ones will be the oldest and therefore the biggest/strongest)that I can use elsewhere.

Pearls like crazy too.

I think you'll like this one.


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Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 12-Apr-2006 03:56Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks Bensaf

I didn't do the small replant last night, mostly for two reasons:

a) I want to do it when I have the chance to vacuum that area as well (avoid major mulm mess), so just before the next water change fits better
b) I was simply to lazy

So, Saturday it is

Ingo


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LITTLE_FISH
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Ok, 2 days have gone passed since I added the Hygrophila augustifolia to my tank (in temp spot) and I notice the first changes. On stem has lost the lowest leaves (1 section = 2 leaves) completely while the other has withering (disintegrating) leaves beginning at the tips (also only the lowest section).

Can this be already a sign of lack of Nitrates in my tank? I would more likely assume that this is damage still done from being in the LFS tank and the transport in general. What do you think?

Another thing that happened to me in the past, and that I feel has never been completely resolved, was the complete elimination of Duckweed in my tank. I still don't understand how that could have happened. I get the low nutrient part (as I may have reduced my P too much, but never to 0), but doesn't this plant thrive in almost all conditions while most other plants would have long died? Do you have any idea?

Ingo


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bensaf
 
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I doubt, even if your tank was low that you see anything so quickly. More then likely were suffering in the shop anyway. It should perk up just watch for new growth.

Duckweed I've never had and know very little about it, but yeah I heard it was practically indestructible.

This happened while you were away, correct ? Here's astrange theory, whoever was looking after the tank thought they were dropped leaves and scooped them out thinking they were doing you a favor.

I don't think nutrients would get so low as to kill the duckweed but not show problems on the other plants.


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Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 13-Apr-2006 15:46Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Nah Bensaf,

It did not happen while I was away. I used to frequently thin out the amount of Duckweed that I have in the tank, you know - the shading and such. After I thinned it out one time, and I removed quite a bit and left only a small group (hard to catch these buggers in such a large tank with the current and such), it never started to re-populate. It simplygot less and less and within about two to three weeks dwindled to nothing.

Sure did I have problems at the same time, this started shortly after my algae problems broke out (thread), which started in turn after I added the new driftwood and messed with the tank like a madman in the process.

I am beginning to wonder if certain levels of the water column contain different "mixtures" of stuff. Like could it be that my messing around (or even the driftwood) had poisoned the surface to a point that the plants would die?

Oh, on the other hand: I never saw the leaves getting yellow or something, they just dissapeared. Can it be that Espei, Rainbows, and Pearls eat this stuff and I had reduced the amount to so little that it couldn't reproduce faster than the fishies ate it? You know what, that sounds almost reasonable.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 13-Apr-2006 16:01Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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Maybe your oto's thought it was tasty one day so the stoped eating your algae and starting eating the duck weed...... Just messing around....

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[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 13-Apr-2006 21:48Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Being a little bored, I decided to add a few pictures just for the fun of it.

Number one is of male Espei. I know you have seen pictures like this before, but they have a habit of zooming into focus just at the right time:

Attached Image:

Male Espei



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Post InfoPosted 14-Apr-2006 23:45Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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And if one picture of an Espei is not enough, how about a picture with, well you count them

Here is the majority of the Espei tribe in one shot:

Attached Image:

Espei School



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NowherMan6
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EditedEdited by NowherMan6
Good shot LF. Not only did you get him in focus, you got him without a grumpy expression on his face - which is a rarity that any rasbora owner will attest to.

EDIT: Just a guess here, I have bad computer eyes, but around 55 or so?


Back in the saddle!
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Now on to non-moving entities

This plant has proven very hardy, is only a little influenced by the algae, has grown in shade and light, doesn't invade the rest of the tank, it is just there.

Isoetes Lacustris

I can really recommend it

Attached Image:

Isoetes Lacustris



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NowherMan6

Well, I haven't counted them yet, I was hoping that Wings will do this for me

But I have one more photo.

It shows the Star Grass group in a close-up. This plant grows so fast that I will have to replant ever other week. But it is very nice.

Attached Image:

Star Grass - Heteranthera zosterifolia



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Post InfoPosted 14-Apr-2006 23:53Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I just wanted to say that this is one of the most beautiful tanks tanks I have ever seen. That school of rasboras is very impressive. Keep up the spectacular work on this tank.
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jbe0404,

Wow, I am flattered, thank you so much.

But if you find this tank beautitiful then maybe you should look at tetratech's 72G and bensaf's tank pictures (spread out, one is even in my log on page 76 - I hope you didn't think that was my tank ).

I will still have to go a long way before I am happy with my tank, but keep on checking in and let me know what you think.

Thanks again,

Ingo


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I will count them for a doller a fish. Deal? Ok Great! 49 of them... thats $49! Thanks!

Great pictures too! Love the one of the school! Very nice!





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Great pictures Ingo. I love that big school of Espei. Makes me want to run out straight away & buy another 10 of their cousins (rasboras) for my tank. Lucky it's Easter Sunday & the shops are shut, or that's what I'd be doing right now.

Dumb question, I know. But, how do I tell the difference between a male & a female rasbora. I've figured it out on my platys & guppys, but not my rasboras or my rams. I hope I have some of both & they breed.

Cheers
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Wings - Thanks, this means that you owe me only $201 now, as the fee for the entertainment in my monster log is $250

Robyn - Thanks for the compliments. To answer your gender questions (not dumb at all, BTW). Somewhere in tetratech's log are great pictures of a male and a female Bolivian Ram. I think the female get the pinkish belly when she is in breeding mode. Sexing adult (and late juvenile) Espei is rather easy as the males are rather red than orange. Otherwise, the general body shape of females is rounder than males, which are a little more streamlined.

On to the usual Sunday Topic:

Weekly Tank Update - Week 29

Not too much has happended this week, I purchased a few stems of Wisteria and 2 stems of Hygrophila augustifolia, mostly for the purpose to increase the plant mass with fast growers. The amount of algae had not declined.

Before I even started my water change this weekend I stood in front of my tank for at least 20 min because I couldn't figure out where to start. The goal was to incorporate these new plants without messing up the whole tank yet again. In addition, the really fast growing Star Grass needed a bottom trimming, in itself a major act because the whole group has to come out first.

Well, somehow I did it, and I don't think it was too bad. I removed the Red Rubin sword (sorry) as it was one of the algae magnets. Also, almost all Cyperus Helferis had to go, my 10 min bleach bath a few weeks back left them rather sick and they were re-invested in no time (or the leaves died and melted into the water column). That was a bummer as it took me a while to get this species.

On to some pictures. As I have a few details to show, full shots will only compare last week to this week. Here is the tank last weekend:

Attached Image:

Last Week



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
And here is the tank now this weekend after the water change and all the other things.

The Star Grass group has been expanded to the right to take the space created by the removed Helferi. The Hygrophila augustifolia is in the spot previously occupied by the Red Rubin (and one stem to the right of it. The Wisteria stems have been spread out in the remaining gaps, I know that this is maybe not the prettiest solution, but I hope it will be efficient.

Attached Image:



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Now we go on to some detail pictures. The first segment is committed to fish, the second to plants.

Here is a close-up of a male Rainbow. I know the quality is not the best, but they showed their nice colors more than usual. I guess this water change must have been special.

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Male Dwarf Rainbow



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The next two pictures demonstrate how peaceful my tank is. It is not uncommon for the various species to hang out together. This is a good thing as there wouldn't be too much space for a species to be on their own as the Espei are everywhere .

Here is the Rainbow joining the Espei:

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Rainbow and Espei



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The same counts for the Pearls as well. Although they prefer the Rainbows over the Espei as tank buddies.

Here is the male Pearl showing the rest of the group who is the boss in the tank. It will be interesting to see how these dynamics change when the Apistos are introduced.

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The Boss



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On to the plants. Actually, the first picture is about algae. I was finally able to get a good shot of the BBA on the driftwood. This photo sums up all my problems. The center gives you a nice few of the thread algae and the rest of the branches are covered in small bushels of BBA. Interestingly, it seems that in particular the regions of the driftwood that are exposed during the water change are covered by it. It may be a coincidence though, but I had 2 or 3 small bushels of them on the tip of my rock in "Rock Valley" which also was exposed during water changes.

Not wanting togo through another week long Excel round with the tank, I dripped some Excel on the branches during low tide (water change). I doubt that it will help, but it was worth a try.

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My Friends - The Algae



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Here is a picture of the left side of the tank. A few of the Ludwigia stems needed some trimming as well. I replanted the tops where their was an opening.

Now I have about 10 plant species in this section, probably too many but I am not willing to concern myself with too many style issues as the priorities have shifted from style to algae war.

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Left side



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Here is a close-up of the new right side. Yeah, I know that it looks a little like a junge again, but we need the nutrient suckers. Also, the Alternanthera in the back corner will grow taller again and become more visible. I am very courious how the Hygrophila augustifolia will develop in this spot, maybe I will have to move it further into the back at some point.

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Right Side



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In case I haven't mentioned it before, I find the Amano Pearl Grass to be very versatile. It is one of the two plants that do really well in my tank (the other being Star Grass). You can let it grow tall, trim it shorter, replant the tops, remove the whole "bush" and trim the bottoms off.

I use the pant mostly as a filler, small pockets here and there. But in the left and right side I use them as larger groups. I would assume that they serve as fry hideouts as well.

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Amano Pearl Grass



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Here is the last shot for now, the new middle section.

As you can see, the Star Grass group has been expanded to the right, behind the Wendtii and various Anubias types.

The other change to the Star Grass group is that I didn't make it as deep as it used to be. The parts between the branches have been filled with some Wisteria.

Never mind the current height differences within the Star Grass group as I had to use the plants that where available to me. I would assume that in no later than 2 weeks it all is going to be grown in.

Thanks for looking,

Ingo

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The Star Grass - Middle Tank Group



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Happy Easter....if you in fact celebrate it. If not, good day to ya.

Interestingly, it seems that in particular the regions of the driftwood that are exposed during the water change are covered by it. It may be a coincidence though,


Yep coicidence that the peices of driftwood closest to the light are also exposed to the air during a water change...

I found that in my tank any surfaces that were not covered with plants got bba(along with some slow growing plants). My heater, the end of the driftwood, the filter intake and output all got it. The filter intake got it the worst, and just so happened to be exposed during water changes. That means nothing except for the fact that it was closest to the light.

I bet you haven't turned the light cycle down a bit yet. I found this really worked for me in conjunction with making sure that nutrients are really there in the amounts you want them to be. In my case I used reliable test kits to give me a good idea, though people on the light side seem not to trust them. I have since turned the lights back up without sign of algae. I bet if I turned it all the way back up all at once I would have had trouble though. I think that's part of where my problems originated, from when I changed lights. It never is just one easy thing is it?

Oh, and when was the last time you changed the bulbs on your fixture? I ask this cause we all know on the darkside that compact flourescent bulbs last about 6-8 months of solid use before they shift spectrum(light usable by algae increases, light usable by plants decreases). The bulbs you keep on the majority of the day will need to be switched more frequently than the "noon time high light" bulbs. I dunno if I already brought this up though. I might have. Sorry if I did, but this threads too big to go back and check.



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Post InfoPosted 16-Apr-2006 17:30Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Matty,

Thanks for your thoughts on the relationship between BBA and air-exposed areas in the tank.

And yes, you are right, I haven't changed my light cycle a bit. The only reason to shorten the cycle would be if my algae profits from the time available when the plants are already tired of uptake. This though should not change over time, meaning that if this is how it works once then this is how it should work again the next time around (aka when you expand the period after shortening it first), except if other conditions in the tank have changed as well. As you may know, right now I have the lights on for 11h and in the middle with double light for 3h.

Now, here is a topic where I am way not with you. PCs and 6-8 months until they shift the color range? I seriously doubt that. That was not what my research showed when I investigated lights for the planted tank way back last August. Regular flourescent - yeah, that I have heard, but PCs seem to stay rather stable until they burn out which is not earlier than one year. Can this be different on the dark side because you guys use such high K ranges (20,000 - right? ) or actinic light?

Anyway, thanks for the input Matty, it is as always very appreciated

And Happy Easter to you too

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Happy Easter to All FPlers



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LF,

Isn't it true that your other tank has no algae. Why not break it down. I mean the differences between that tank and your 125 and see if you could hit on something.



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Post InfoPosted 17-Apr-2006 02:37Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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the relationship between BBA and air-exposed areas in the tank.


It's because they are the parts closest to the light, simple as that.

Difference between this and other tank? Well Co2 is going to be the biggest difference. What does Co2 do to a tank ?
Drives up nutrient demand explosively. So one tank with low nutrient demand has no algae, one tank with high nutrient demand has algae.

What does that tell you ?

The fact that LF was adding far less Equilibrium then he should have been for a long time is worrying. With such a low GH there would be problems. Little to no Mg and Calcium. These 2 would directly involve growth. Would certainly explain the stunting on the Reineckii but I'm surprised there wasn't more evidence of stunting on others. Depends on the plant species. Some seem to care squat if the Ca and Mg is low and keep on going, others, like the Reineckii stunt and produce ugly little curled leaves that look like they were burned, swaords and grasy plants just tend to stop growing or slow down dramatically. Don't know if any of these syptoms are familiar to LF ?

Anyway with good nutrients going in it should just be a waiting game - trim off the existing algae as new replacement growth comes in.



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EditedEdited by mattyboombatty
Yeah, you can get away with 12 months, but PC bulbs definitely do not hold their spectrum until they burn out(which used for 12ish hrs/day would/should be near 2 years). Sometimes bulbs will only hold their spectrum 3 months, sometimes 10. The average seems to be around 6-8, after which time they will lose/have lost about 40% of their efficacy. I've never been able to read information on spectrum and intensity given by bulb manufacturers (remember, the people who make them, not sell them), but instead must rely on heresay. So who knows what you hear is right. The sellers of the bulbs, coralife and even retailers, give bulb life(how long 50% of tested bulbs lasted, about 2 years), and initial spectrum output and intensity, not efficacy over that period, not even the actual readings after "burn in" which is about 100hrs of use.

From what research I've done on NO, VHO, PC, T-5 HO, and MH, it seems to me that T-5 HO bulbs are the only bulbs that continue to give a high percentage of light at a full year. None of these bulbs can claim however that they will give the same, or similar output for the majority of the bulb life.

Anyways, you can't assume that bulbs will last any amount of time, and should just be something to consider, because after 6-8 months of use it's increasingly likely that your bulbs are going downhill. I'm not saying that if your plants are doing great to go out and buy a new bulb every six months, but just to give thought. I'll keep mine running as long as possible. I'm a poor college kid . This isn't the most important thing to think about, and definitely not as important in a plant tank as a reef tank which need, generally speaking, more light than we give them. It was just something that crossed my mind.

Oh and you are right, actinic bulbs don't last as long as others, but since they are more for veiwing pleasure than photosynthesis, they are much less important to replace. 6500K and say 10000K(which is what I use) last the same amount of time. I'm not sure about the 20000K, these are even harder than the more common bulbs to find info on.

The only reason to shorten the cycle would be if my algae profits from the time available when the plants are already tired of uptake.


There are other reasons, for me anyways. Light is more connected to all other nutrients than any other, making it by far the most important. Having a high light tank such as yourself, means everything else has to be just right, whereas having a little less light will slow things down a bit and give you more room for error. You might find that your plants will even be as healthy/colorful, and things will be easier on you. I remember Tom Barr saying it, and I totally agree. In his experiments he'd crank the light up to see algae faster, and more ounced.

Eh, just something to think about, I'd like to know why you are so stubborn with the light and ready to change everything else. I'm not sure what everyone else thinks about this though. I'd like to know. Don't just go on what I say. It might have been total luck in my case that everything I did helped out instead of causing a huge crash.

Anyway with good nutrients going in it should just be a waiting game - trim off the existing algae as new replacement growth comes in.


I agree with this too.



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Wings - Thanks, this means that you owe me only $201 now, as the fee for the entertainment in my monster log is $250

LF,
I stayed up all night reading your log just looking for the way that to give you payment. I couldn't find one so I guess you are out of luck.

Isn't it true that your other tank has no algae. Why not break it down. I mean the differences between that tank and your 125 and see if you could hit on something.

125 = high tech
20 + 29 = low tech? But maybe that is something to look into.

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EditedEdited by tetratech
Reason I brought up the two tanks, so you might go back to basics and break it down, variable by varible. Something is not in balance, thus the algae. Too much light, not enough mass (discussed too much already), too much waste in the water column, it's not the macro ferts. I'm dosing macros on my 12gallon just like my big tank and I see no algae even with 2.2wpg and no co2 (using excel daily - the only way to use it in my opinion)

Look at bensaf's tank, you would probably have to triple your current plant mass to equal his, every layer and level is full with plants.

Your algae issues are still in the light/waste/mass relationship in your tank. Your dosing EI, your plants are growing, yes some species are stunting, but I don't think these stunted plants are a big part of the mass in your tank.

I can't imagine your "old" lights are causing algae, I understand where Matty is going with the spectrum thing, but I agree that cf bulbs are much more stable.

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I ve not been here a while, sort been popping in having a look and then running away in shame! - As ever Little_Fish great tank!

I found this and thought of the gentlemen that frequent this thread and their long suffering other halves!!

http://www.ilfordaquarists.co.uk/articles8.htm

GFG



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EditedEdited by bensaf
Your algae issues are still in the light/waste/mass relationship in your tank.


Tetra has been banging away at this for a while, and not really getting the attention it should.
I just read something by Tom Barr that addresses that very issue.
Basicially it's to to with the input of organics into a system. Apparently there needs to be a balance between the the organics going in (ie fish poo, mulm) and the bacterias ability to consume it.Loading is the key rather then the amount of organics itself. If the organics are loaded faster then the bacteria can consume it then you will have algae. It's not possible to have enough plant mass to make the difference. Example a 50 gal with say 8 discus getting fed properly is going to have algae, no matter how many plants or how sound the fert routine !!!! Same tank with 2 discus will have no problems.

So you can have a high level of orgnics with no problems if the bacteria can consume it quickly, if the bacteria can't - even a small amount of organics will cause problems. Loading.

Now Espei's aren't Discus by any means but then again are we still talking 100+ rather then 8 ?

I think tetra has been on to something here.

Certainly I used to be a devil for overstocking, got over that and prefer to be understocked now (looks better), and there do seem to be less issues with a lower fish stock.

goldfishgeek, I enjoyed that article


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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Sorry Guys (and Gals) that I have not added an entry in a few days

I thought the best thing I can do right now is to let you add all your ideas of what may be causing my algae issues without interruption

While all your advice is noble and appreciated, combined it contradicts one rule that I believe I am beginning to understand (and follow): "Change one thing at a time, give it time to show its effect, if it doesn't help then move on to the next option".

I totally agree with the fact that light duration and fish load can have something to do with it, heck - they do have something to do with it. But right now I am increasing the plant mass and as painful as it is even for me, I am willing to give the plants time to grow and to monitor any changes, if they ever happen .

The "mental" issue I have with regards to light is that I somehow believe that reducing duration, or even cutting out the midday light, will conclude in a tank that I can have without CO2 and what not. So why would I want to go that route?

The "mental" issue I have with the fish load is - I like fish too . Although I can imagine reducing the Espei group (now maybe around 70) by another 20 to 30, you guys have no idea how hard it is to catch these buggers in that tank. While I had 100 it took me 1.5 hours to get 28, and an attempt to catch an almost adult one failed every single time - too fast and too smart. I have thoughts of somehow building a contraption with a real fishing net and what not.

In summary, I guess I have lots of "mental" issues

GFG - Good to see you back, you have to hang around some more. How is it going with you? I also loved the article, I am not sure though if I want to show it to my wife as it may frighten her of the things to come

Ingo


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EditedEdited by tetratech
Bensaf,
Thanks for the acknowledgement. I had not seen the Tom Barr piece, but I knew I was on to something.

It's not possible to have enough plant mass to make the difference.
Do you mean, possibility depending on the organic input?

To me and let's be honest. "Planted tanks and fish lovers don't mix" What I mean is someone like LF (great guy by the way) is fairly new to the hobby and loves his fish, also loves his plants, but that's a big part of the issue. I would say if LF has 100 espei in the tank, plus rainbows, plus pearls. Each rainbow is probably like 10 espei same for the pearls, so we ar talking 150 fish or so. That's a lot of s***! Oh I forgot the otos they s*** too!
You got so much s*** floating around. Now, look up it's 386 watts, break out the SPF 80. See what I mean the two don't mix. I always go back to nature. Think of how vast the oceans and lakes are. Do you see 150 fish every 5 feet. It's an unbalanced closed system. Yes I know you do a 50% wc every week, but believe it or not, it's not enough based on your system. If you add another filter, wet/dry or increase water change to twice/weekly it would probably make a difference.

Look at saltwater tanks that require protein skimming, sumps in a desperate attempt to balance out the organic load, etc.

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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Look at saltwater tanks ...
Friends of the Planted Tanks - get your vaccinations, have your tubes tied, get a vasectomy - anything that can be done to stop this Dark Side stuff from invading the peaceful planted community

Well, it is only around 70 Espei, but I get the point tetratech

Are you basically implying that changing light duration, supercharging ferts, upping CO2, increasing plant mass, and what not will all not help as I simply have too many fish? What about Amano's 500 Cardinals in a 29G with minmal plant mass - all just show and for one day only?

It certainly would disillusion me that if after all this back and forth about what may not be right in my tank, and all these replants, the conclusion would be that I cannot have this fish load and a high tech planted tank

Ingo


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EditedEdited by tetratech
Friends of the Planted Tanks - get your vaccinations, have your tubes tied, get a vasectomy - anything that can be done to stop this Dark Side stuff from invading the peaceful planted community



Look these are gut feelings I have. I haven't conducted scientific experiments but I do feel strongly about the relationship between waste/biofilter/light. Those other things (stablity, plant mass, not uprooting, EI) all have to be there).

I believe if you are going to continue to use high light then the water has to be cleaner. So less fish or more water changes / maintenance. Doesn't it seem kinda romote now that it's too much no3 or p04 that is causing problems.

I've said this before 3.1 wpg on your tank is like 6/7 watts on a 29g. Why don't you try semi-weekly water changes or 70% wc once a week, plus keep adding plant mass.

BTW: More fish the more you probably feed. You don't need to feed your fish everyday. I routinely don't feed once sometimes twice a week.


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You don't need to feed your fish everyday
Almost by chance, I started this earlier this week. I don't think it will make a difference yet, but we will see. Also, based on an advice you gave me earlier, I decided to reduce the amount of food per feeding and I am doing so since 2 weeks .

Oh, BTW - tonight I will be part of that Planted Tank round table discussion at my LFS. It will be interesting to see what these folks have to say in general. I may encounter a big resistance when I mention things like EI, 30++ppm of CO2, 20ppm N, and what not

Thanks tetratech,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 19-Apr-2006 17:33Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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I may encounter a big resistance when I mention things like EI, 30++ppm of CO2, 20ppm N, and what not


Yea, especially when there's some algae in your tank. It's a lot easier if the tank is spotless. But hey, they'll come around...I did....sorta.

I'm not going to press the light issue anymore, but I think that you can do fine with that many fish. It's a big tank with adequate filtration. Of course removing a few fish and increasing filtration couldn't hurt.



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Post InfoPosted 19-Apr-2006 19:52Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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Yeah Matty,

I guess you are right, one cannot make a strong stand when there are issues . But I will use Bensaf and tetratech as perfect examples how EI can be used with success .

So you find my filtration just adequate? I haven't thought about that as I see a rather strong current, on top from left to right and on the bottom the other way. I figured that this (and 6 liters of filter media) should be more than adequate.

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Post InfoPosted 19-Apr-2006 19:57Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
I will quote a line from my one of my favorite movies:
"The time for half measures and talk is over"

EI - Yes it works, your plants are growing. Remember it's estimative and for the most part your plants are growing fine. Something is out of wack and it's not the fert dosing. Yes, I'm sure the uprooting is a problem with getting too much waste in the column, but do you want a tank that you have to be so afraid to touch. You must bring the tank into a more centered place. Where you have some degree of wiggle room. More plants, less fish, more biofilter (if possible), more water changes/gravel wash and possibilly less light. Pick and choose. You might not be able to sustain the tank you have without doing one or more of the above. Don't take my word for it, look at the tank. Sometimes you have to pick and choose. Remember "You can't be all things to all fish and plants"




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Post InfoPosted 19-Apr-2006 21:50Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Well let's assume for a minute we're onto something with the organic loading vs. bacteria ability to break it down.
Logically we have 2 options - either reduce the organics going in OR increase the amount of bacteria to enable a heavier loading.

If we rule out reducing the fish load for the moment that just leaves the bacteria. How to handle ? Well what exactly is in that 9 litres of filter media - are we talking flosses/sponges or bio balls, efisubstrat etc ?
Maybe by increasing the quantity of biological filtration over mechanical filtration would help ?

One thing I've noticed on the big planted tanks here - they all have huge amounts of bio filtration !!! Most all the big tanks I've seen here have bulit in compartments, usually built into the rear left corner, the filter outlet is fed into this compartment which is full of nothing but bio balls and this is in addition to whatever is in the filter itself.

All these tanks were very clean and algae free - I just never made the connection to the huge amount of bio balls before.

I also remember talking to one local shop owner who had some amazing planted show tanks, lots of slow growers Ferns, Anubias , Bolbitis - perfect health and spotless. I was particularly impressed by his narrow leaf fern - the cleanest,freshest most brightest green I'd ever seen. I asked him what he did to keep it that good looking. His reply - "clean water" !!!!! Not nutrients or light (he had a good bit of light BTW) just "clean water".

Food for thought.



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Post InfoPosted 20-Apr-2006 03:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Bensaf,
I couldn't agree more and I don't think we are just blowing smoke toward LF's direction.

If he had 3 cardinals swimming around I don't think we are having this conversation.

What does algae feed off of, waste and light, right. LF has plenty of both and with his light levels that water better be clean.

Get your sabre out, because I'm going to bring up the darkside. Did you ever see the bioballs in some of those tanks. There is a massive amount of surface area to colonize bacteria in those sumps, becuase the water has to be really clean. Dirty water and high light is the breeding ground for algae.

It's interesting I tested my water tonite for the hell of it and from what I could tell I have 10ppm no3, 5ppm po4. That makes sense to me because I've been easing up on my no3 and increasing po4 to get the red in. The reason I mention it is that I've had these numbers as high as 20 to 25no3 and 1ppm po4 and even with these changes I'm still not getting any algae. It really is an estimative index as long as your tank is balanced somewhat between fish load, plants, light. Another thing too that shouldn't be overlooked and I did mention it before is that with a heavy fish load it get's even worse because people are feeding more to make sure they all get some. LF said he just started to ease up on feeding so maybe that will help as well. I would love to be a "fly on the wall" at his planted tank meeting.

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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Thanks guys for the input

Just to clear that up, I have 4 liters of ehfisubstrat in my filter and 1 liter of ehfimech.

Overall, I think our discussion regarding my algae issue is heading towards Doomsday . It isn't all that bad, guys. Yes, it is annoying and in particular with the occurence of the BBA not very sightly, but I have seen tanks in worse shape.

You are right, I may have too many fishies, at least when looking at recommendations that state that heavy fish loads are dangerous for planted tanks (of this kind) as they narrow the marign for error even more. But, I think that me messing big time with the tank twice in just a few weeks, plus running out of CO2 during vacation may have just been enough to get outside of this margin and the algae is the result. Maybe, just maybe, creating some stability in the tank will enable to get me back within this margin.

For what it is worth, the green thread algae patch that is pictured on the branch (surrounded by BBA) has almost completely dissapeard. I saw it decline over the last 4 days.

I think the one thing I would like to work on as soon as I can is to find a solution on how to avoid that so much CO2 is bypassing the spray bar. Even if that may have no impact on the algae, right now I feel like I am wasting CO2 and a more efficient means of keeping it in the water can help extend my bottle life.

Anyway: The round table discussion last night was fine, there were about 10-12 people on all levels, some of which just started in the planted tank hobby and others that are doing it for a long time.

You know how it is when one talks about plants and stuff, there is barely any time to cover a particular topic in depth. So we pretty much went over loads of detailed topics, like CO2, Nutrients, Plants, Tanks, Substrate, and what not. There wasn't much new that I learned there, as I said we really didn't have the time to go into details. There seemed to have been a rather strong resistance against Tom Barr, but all add CO2, have high nutrient values, and do large water changes - that for me is EI. Maybe some day I can chat with them some more and find out where they may differ from his method.

At least two of the experts are also members of the North New Jersey Aquarium Society, nice folks with humor and insight, and I am consideing going to one of their meetings. I have been thinking about this before, but knowing people that are members makes it easier than showing up and knowing nobody.

Well, this was a long post. I hope I didn't bore you to death,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 20-Apr-2006 14:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
FRANK
 
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Hi,
"Wasting CO2" can be a problem with using diffusers. As
we all know, with CO2, the longer the gas is in contact
with the water, the more is absorbed into the water.
By using the smallest possible bubble and keeping it
circulating in the water not reaching the surface is the
only way to do that. They are, after all, just bubbles.

So we use the smallest possible bubble, and in some cases
even create currents in the tank just to keep the bubbles
waterborne. Still they reach the surface.

Reactors, on the other hand don't allow that to happen.
The external ones, with a pump, are the best in that you
don't have to look at them when you look into the tank.
The inside ones with the motor and sponge are very
efficient as well. With a reactor, if your gas bubbles
get out of the reactor, you are injecting too much gas
and instead of circulating inside the reactor it is
escaping. You just need to back down on the rate of
injection.

I suspect, that with reactors, as with diffusers, a
given one can only do so much.
I suspect if one working properly is not increasing
the CO2 saturation enough and you are injecting to
where some of the gas is escaping out of the reactor,
you should add a second. But then I don't
have a tank measuring in the hundreds of gallons.

Just an observation?

Frank


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Post InfoPosted 20-Apr-2006 15:32Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Overall, I think our discussion regarding my algae issue is heading towards Doomsday


Why do you say that? In any case sounds like your in the right place, mentally anyway. All these things: biofilter, organic control, can only help, increase plants, biofilter, feed less (with those baby espei) you could probably feed twice a week and be fine. I bet the food has alot to do with the organics problem. Not only is uneaten food in the tank but obviously the poop more too.
Remember I said when I stir things up in my tank I get very little gunk. I really don't feed alot. If you start doing all these things and your plant mass increases I bet your algae problems are history.

As far as the spraybar. Just angle the diffusor alittle bit toward the inside of the tank so the bubbles don't climb up the glass inbetween the diffusor. All I could tell you is I've never had more pearling than I have gotten since using the glass diffusor. Even in the event that some bubbles are wasted the method is much more effective for the plants. Co2 is pretty cheap. What $10 bucks every 6 months, so turn it up if you have to. My ph has been riding 6.0 lately with a kh of 2, so I have to be careful. So far fish look fine and plants look great.

Here's a pic of my diffusor / spraybar:







Attached Image:


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tetratech
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And here's a pearling shot from last nite:



Attached Image:


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EditedEdited by tetratech
And another:

I'ts funny you really get to know your tank after a while, every plant in my tank was pearling last nite, except the riccia, why? Because the aromatica has reached the top of the tank and the riccia is completely shaded. I've noticed the bushiness has stopped on it so if I do nothing, I'll probably get some bba from the slowed growth, but one I clip the aromatica it will come back good as new.

BTW: Check out the size od the wisteria leave behind the rotala

Attached Image:


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Frank and tetratech,

Thanks for the input

I am basically pretty happy with the job the diffuser is doing. I have at least the same CO2 levels then I had before (with the reactor at same bubble rate), probably even more as I raised the KH by about 1dH (to maybe 4.5, previously I raised it only to maybe 3 to 3.5) and have the same end-day ph of about 6.6. I just don't like the trip to get a new filled bottle and wouldn't mind stretching it out some more. As such - the idea is to make sure all bubbles stay in the tank for longer. And it is over $20 here in NJ for a replacement bottle .

I will try the angle method, although I am not too optimistic about it as most bubbles that escape are actually in front of the spray bar. I asume that my diffuser is not even a good quality as a good half of the bubbles are rather large and the diffusion section on the ceramic plate is still only in one small part of it. Oh - how do I clean that sucker again?

Why do you say that?
Because I got the impression that the conclusion to my algae situation would be that I have to lower the fish load, otherwise I would be doomed to fields of algae forever. Maybe I misinterpreted the recent statements from my FP friends in this log.

Ingo

PS: tetratech, nice shots After seeing only the first picture I was already getting ready to state that a haircut may be needed, but then you mentioned it yourself


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Post InfoPosted 20-Apr-2006 16:33Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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I will try the angle method, although I am not too optimistic about it as most bubbles that escape are actually in front of the spray bar. I asume that my diffuser is not even a good quality as a good half of the bubbles are rather large and the diffusion section on the ceramic plate is still only in one small part of it. Oh - how do I clean that sucker again?

My problem was some was going between the glass and diffusor thus the angle. LF we are splitting hairs here. Measure your co2 tonite before lights out and see where you are. Diffusor, reactor, inline they all work, I do believe the diffusor methods creates more pearling. For the longest time my plants didn't pearl but their growth was beautiful. Let's move on:

BTW - Clean the diffusor with 1/3 bleach / water. Rinse with prime after that and put back in.

Because I got the impression that the conclusion to my algae situation would be that I have to lower the fish load, otherwise I would be doomed to fields of algae forever. Maybe I misinterpreted the recent statements from my FP friends in this log

I think you could have your fish, but if you want that type of load you might have to go over-the-top on maintenance. More biofilter, more plants, less feeding, mabye semiweekly gravelwash and waterchanges. Some tanks require less maintenance, all plants and like no fish, you know those tanks where you don't even need a filter. So it all depends what you want and where you tank fits in.

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Post InfoPosted 20-Apr-2006 17:22Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Oh - how do I clean that sucker again?

LF,
Bensaf is going to be mad at you!!

Basicly I do a 50/50 bleach/water bath for about 10 to 15 minuts. After that I rince the bugger like crazy for a while. Then I give it a second heavy bath in cheap water conditioner for another few minutes. Then a quick tap water rince and back in the tank.

I really think that tetra and ben are on to something with the fish load/bio filter thing. We really tend to over stock our tanks compared to the number of fish per area in the wild. To make this really work then you are going to have to up your bio filter. Things like sumps a quite cool because they add that much more water/bio area to your system.

What if one were to make a PVC add on to your canister like what Matt did for his CO2? Just fill the thing with bio balls or something. This would add more bio filter area and not cause issues like surface disterbance like a sump would.

I might just have to mess around with that when I move and have to mess with things anyways. I am already thinking of having the tank coming out from the wall at a 90 degree thus it would be viewable from three sides.

(sorry to get rambling....)

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Post InfoPosted 20-Apr-2006 17:30Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Lucky wings gave a reminder how to clean the diffuser. I swore I wasn't going to it again

Tetra has 5ppm of P and no algae. Another nail in the coffin of the "P causes algae" myth

Don't worry about the bubbles from the diffuser. Part of the reason why diffusers lost out to reactors in popularity in the past was the "wasted gas" myth, btw the have you noticed how this hobby has more myth then even the ancient Greeks had ??

Most of the bubbles that reach the top are no longer co2 anyway, it's dissolved and exchanged with oxygen.

Nobody could understand why Amano was using those "inefficient" diffusers for years and refused to use a reactor. Heck, he even places his halfway up the tank, so I guess he's not worried about the bubbles "escaping".

Important thing is how much Co2 in the water. If the levels are good then the diffuser is doing it's job.

Good to see the algae is receding. Maybe the stability is helping. Either way an excellent omen. Just keep things steady !

The biggest hurdle most have with EI is the whole "excess" thing. Most think they can fine tune and micro-manage the nutrients. Cool if they can and they have the time for a lot of testing and monitoring. Me, I'd rather spoon the stuff in and then kick back with a smoke and a cup 'o joe and enjoy the tank. But basically , whether you use EI, PPS, Amano products or any other method, they all boil down to the same thing - getting the nutrients in the tank in sufficient quantity for the plants. They just differ slightly in how they add them. All the good methods focus on plants and don't devote any attention to algae. As tetra as mentioned before Amano fully expects algae and apart from adding abiot of specialist livestock to eat it, pretty much ignores it and keeps focused on the plants.



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Post InfoPosted 21-Apr-2006 03:55Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Lucky wings gave a reminder how to clean the diffuser. I swore I wasn't going to it again


As much as LF has been there for me I didn't want to see ben pull out his lightsaber and get him.

So just to make you guys laugh a little.... I dropped my phone in a creek while trout fishing tonight...the lady wasn't very happy.... this was number two!

EI question: I have been doing 1/2 tsp of pot. Nitrate in my 40G 3 times a week. I did a couple of test this week and I am coming up with 0 ppm each test. Doest this mean my plants are sucking the stuff right up? If so should I up it a little? I have noticed a little bit of green spot on my A. Nana. Everything else is rocking though.

Sorry I am off subject and log hacking.





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Post InfoPosted 21-Apr-2006 04:13Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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I dropped my phone in a creek while trout fishing tonight...

I once dropped mine in the toilet bowl while having a pee Fished it out I let it dry out. Of course I needed a new cell. There's alot of big markets here that only deal in cell phones. Took the old one with me to trade in and get a few bucks off a new one. All going well until the store guy decides to remove the antenna compartment to check it. Puzzled look on his faces as he notices the rust ! He's not sure what it is so he deides to sniff it The look of sheer of disgust and horror on his face was priceless

EI question: I have been doing 1/2 tsp of pot. Nitrate in my 40G 3 times a week. I did a couple of test this week and I am coming up with 0 ppm each test. Doest this mean my plants are sucking the stuff right up?


No it means your test kit is rubbish !

That's a lot of KNO3 to be adding to a 40gal. No way the plants are sucking it all up. Dodgy kit.

Plants showing any signs of N deficiency ? Trust them more then the kit.


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Post InfoPosted 21-Apr-2006 10:54Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Well thanks to Wings then, otherwise the secret of how to clean a diffuser would have been lost forever

But, I have to dig deeper into the cleaning ritual. Given that the diffuser is full of water (oh, BTW, there is some white substance forming on the inside bottom of mine) I would assume that you don't empty it first before you clean it. Given that, I further assume that it is unavoidable that some bleach will be mixed in with the water inside the diffuser. Now, after putting it in a Prime bath, can one be sure that this bleach is neutralized?

Yeah Bensaf, let's try the stability theorem first. I always have time later to reduce fish count, black-outs, poison, and what not . At least I can try to give nature a chance.

Wings, I agree with Bensaf, your N addition should be fine. Your tank is pretty much 1/3 of mine, and I add 3 times the N than you do. And I get healthy N readings.

Bensaf - I guess I shouldn't buy used objects from you

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 21-Apr-2006 11:18Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Yeah the plants are looking just fine. Growing like weeds. Maybe I should test another tank to see what happens....

Yeah I think you topped my cell phone story BTW ben. Phone report this morning is all is fine and dandy!

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Post InfoPosted 21-Apr-2006 14:01Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by tetratech
No it means your test kit is rubbish !

I say class action against the makers of test kits for emotional duress.

I was putting in about that in my 72 for the longest time. Recently I have moved up to around 5/8 to 3/4 and my tank is almost twice the size of yours Wings and I still show good ranges of no3 (Then again it's based on a test kit)

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Post InfoPosted 21-Apr-2006 18:45Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I keep saying that it is entirely simple to test if your kit is bunk or not. Just test it against a known concentration. make up a gallon of water and put in according to Chucks calculator, the amount that would be 10ppm or 20ppm(whatever you want in your tank). Mix well, and test. From then on that is what you want in your tank. Obviously if it doesn't register anything throw out your kit. Or call up the company and they will likely send out a new one or something. Most companies aren't out to rip you off.

I only tested until I figured the right amount of nutrients to put in the tank every other day to keep the levels I want. Now I only test once a month before the water change. Things have always looked good, and worked out well logically too. Test kits are a good tool if you use them right.



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Post InfoPosted 21-Apr-2006 19:36Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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But, I have to dig deeper into the cleaning ritual. Given that the diffuser is full of water (oh, BTW, there is some white substance forming on the inside bottom of mine) I would assume that you don't empty it first before you clean it. Given that, I further assume that it is unavoidable that some bleach will be mixed in with the water inside the diffuser. Now, after putting it in a Prime bath, can one be sure that this bleach is neutralized?


Over thinking alert.Over thinking alert.Over thinking alert.

Yes don't empty it. It'll be fine. Being doing this for months now, no problems.

If you assume the bleach will get into the water in the diffuser then you also have to assume the Prime will also.


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 22-Apr-2006 03:42Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Over thinking alert
You have no idea, here comes over thinking:

"If you assume the bleach will get into the water in the diffuser then you also have to assume the Prime will also." - But Prime and Bleach have different consistencies and maybe bleach is smoother and more of it would enter the diffuser than Prime can eliminate .



Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 22-Apr-2006 15:10Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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So Prime the crap out of it!

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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Thanks Wings, more to this in a few posts, but now:

Weekly Tank Update - Week 30

This week was marked more by talk than by action . Endless discussions on what should be done to reduce my algae ended with me deciding to maintain the status quo and see where the tank will go from here. Rushed action taken in the past never gave the tank time to settle, I think this approach is worth a try. I also believe to see the first improvements, although it may be wishful thinking.

So, on to the photos: There will be only 2 full shots of the full tank as there are quite a few details of fish and plants, in particular fish, that I would like to share.

Here is the tank last weekend after the water change:

Attached Image:



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And here is the tank now this weekend, after the water change. As you can see, the Star Grass grows as strong as usual. It seems that a bi-weekly replant is becoming the norm for this group. based on tetratech's bad experience with simply trimming off the top of his Star Grass (a long time ago) I decided to always replant by cutting the bottoms out.

No major trimming has been performed this weekend, only a few dying leaves of the remaining Helferi plants have been pinched off. I guess next week I will also hae to trim the Alternanthera on the right:

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Week 30 - Today



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Post InfoPosted 22-Apr-2006 23:39Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Here is a picture of the glass diffuser before I cleaned it. As you may be able to see, the top of the ceramic plate is pretty green. Cleaning was based on the given info by Wings and tetratech, combined with the approval of Bensaf, a breeze. All looks very clean now and no fish died (so far) of bleach poisoning .

I also followed tetratech's example and angled the diffuser slightly by removing the bottom sucktion cup. The week will show if it makes a difference, but it looks like a little more of the bubbles are washed into the current.

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Diffuser



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Here is an interesting picture that shows one thing, algae on decline. I cannot identify why the algae is reciding in this spot as it may have to do with the fact that I dripped Excel over it during last weeks water change.

Algae in the rest of the tank is at least not further increasing.

Photo: left was last week, right is now:

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Yeah Baby



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Now on to a few detail shots. Again tetratech served as an inspiration (I hope you see it this way as well tetratech, and don't brand me a copy cat ) and so I climbed on a chair and took some top shots of the tank.

Given the size of my tank it is impossible to cover it all, not even front to back fits in one picture. I guess I will have to remove a piece of the floor on the first floor so I can look straight down to the tank in the basement and make a full shot .

Anyway, here is the left side - front area - of the tank from the birds-eye view. From left to right, you see:

- A red Wendtii with Pearl Grass in front of it
- One small stem of Wisteria
- An open field with crypt Wendtii (small ones that never took off in the tank within the last 30 weeks), Lucens, and Lutea.
- On the right back is an Anubias leave and in the front the end of the big driftwood:


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Left Top View



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Here is the middle section of the tank.

All across the picture is the wood and one can also see the rock that holds it down.

Plants in the picture are:

Narrow Leaf Java Fern with Anubias Nana Petite in front of it, a Red Wendtii, some dwarf sags, and Pearl Grass.

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Middle from Top



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Here is the right corner of the tank from above.

On the left side you can see the remaining tiny group of Glosso that slowly starts to settle again. Behind it is a row of 3 Isoetes Lacustris. All ovehanging leaves are from Helferi, Crypt Retrospiralis, and the rather new Hygrophila augustifolia. The right corner in itself is filled with Pearl Grass (can you tell I really like that plant? ), with a small stem of Wisteria to the left of it.

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Right Corner from Top



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Well I'm glad alage didn't dominate your posts today. Just let the plants grow and I'll withhold and scaping comments for a few weeks. I'm confident your put this algae thing behind you soon.

Yeah I like the overhead shots it gives a different prospective on the tank and it's interesting to see what's going on. The wisteria looks very clean and healthy so that should spread quickly and help out.

Did your diffusor come with those suction cups? I only have mine attache by the tubing and it keeps breaking away.

BTW - How come you haven't put the apistos in yet?

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On to some fish pictures

You guys and gals have to let me know when you have enough of seeing the same fish over and over again as I just like to look at them.

Here is a shot of 2 male Rainbows, unfortunately I couldn't get both with their full bodies in the shot.

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Male Dwarf Rainbows



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Here is a nice one where the Pearls seem to follow the lead of the Rainbow.

Where they are going though is beyond me

Maybe you remember some older shots of the male Pearl, but I can tell that he is becoming a grown-up. His finnage is getting longer and his throat more and more orange-yellow. He also likes the company of the female more than he did in the past:

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Pearls and Rainbow



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Now there will be two shots of the Apisto Pair. I assume that I will add them during this week to the tank, I am in no rush though. They also have truely bonded and I am sure that they would breed under the right conditions. Unfortunately I don't think that the 125 will be able to provide these conditions - too many fish

Here is a shot that displays the difference in size between the male and female

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Apisto Pair I



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And here is the second shot of the pair. This time the female is either telling her man to stay away or she shows him how pretty she is. I cannot tell which one is the case as we males misinterpret female signs by definition

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Apisto Pair II



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Last but not least, a good old Oto picture. Today I saw 5 of them (I have 6) for the first time in at least 3 weeks at the same time. With these guys you never know how many are still alive.

Here is one munching away on algae on my big piece of driftwood, just beautiful:

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Hungry Oto



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
I'll withhold and scaping comments for a few weeks
Thanks tetratech

Sorry, only now when reviewing my entries did I see your entry. I hope you are right about the algae issue being behind me at some point.

The Wisteria in the top shots are small cut off pieces from the 20G, the ones that I bought at the store a little over a week ago are further in the back as they are taller already.

The suction cups did not come with the diffuser. They are standard air hose cups and barely fit around the diffuser pipe. I also had the diffuser break away from the cups. If you look closely at the picture then you may see that I locked the bottom cup with a rubber band to the pipe, that seems to work. This cup is now on top of the pipe so the bottom can lean against the glass and angle the unit for a better of bubbles in the spray bar current.

The Apistos will most likely be added this week, I am not in a rush with that as they are doing just great in the QT and I am not sure if I would like to add more fish any time soon. Although, 8 Cories may be nice

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 23-Apr-2006 00:29Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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So Excel works great with a dirct hit to the algae. I found that out at work too!

That algae in the oto picture is nice looking stuff! You grow it very well I must say!

If you look at tetra's over head pictures compared to your what do you see? Way more plant mass in tetra's tank. I think that is probably his biggest differnce compared to your tank.

Want me to mail you so Sunset Hygro? I have a tank full it floating right now. Grows like weed!

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Post InfoPosted 23-Apr-2006 01:10Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Hi Ingo

I love your pics. I especially love the Apisto Pair.
they should breed under the right conditions. Unfortunately I don't think that the 125 will be able to provide these conditions - too many fish
That might be right. I have on order 2 pelvicachromis taeniatus Moliwe, which I was told are a rarer cousin of the krib (at least in Oz). They are still on their way to Oz. They had to be preordered & bought as a pair. I was told not to add them to my community tank, as the goal should be breeding and that a community tank will be too busy for success. You know I'm inexperienced, so I don't know if LFS is right or not, but LFS said they should be in a tank with only a few dither fish to give them confidence. My QT will become their home. I will still have another small QT (you might remember my thread about that). My community tank is almost stocked (only ottos to go). Therefore, I shouldn't need a big QT any more. I'm looking forward to seeing if I can breed them.

Cheers
TW
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Robyn and Wings,

I know we had talked about other stuff before, and I hope you remember the details, as I forgot. But I think it was mostly about your Krib cousins, Robyn.

So I have a new question: Do you folks think it would be advisable to prepare some form of case, like flower pot or something, before I add the Apistos to the main tank? If so, I guess less current in that area would be better and as such it should be on the right side of the tank, right?

Ingo


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Something you might want to try is sticking a flower pot in there but hide it under a bunch of rocks and plants. That way they have there hide out and you have more of a mound.

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and then cover that with anubias, java moss, or fern so you don't lose any of your plant mass.



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Post InfoPosted 26-Apr-2006 04:48Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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Ingo, I think some posts have disappeared - you gave me some good articles & links about those krib cousins.

Re: the flower pot. That's what I've read I should put in for my P.taeniatus Moliwe. Suggestions are to invert the flower pot, but firstly enlarge the water outlet hole to be just large enough for the female to enter.

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Thanks guys, and gal, for the input
Suggestions are to invert the flower pot
Invert as in upside-down? I don't think I am going to do that. My tank and its inhabitants are way too much of a gunk producing machine and I believe the living conditions inside that pot would deteriorate rather quickly. Instead I intend to (if I use a pot) place it sideways, about half of it buried in the gravel. Also the pot should not be too deep. Enlarging the hole is a good idea though, I read some posts here (a long time ago) referring to fish that got stuck in these holes.

The next thought would have to be the exact position, meaning - where can I place this cave so that it can be covered with plants (as Matty said) without sticking out too much and at the same time allow me to look into the pot so I can see if there is anything moving in there? I still assume it would have to be on the right side, far away from the filter intake and in calmer waters. I will see what I can do.

Thanks again,

Ingo


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EditedEdited by tetratech
Instead I intend to (if I use a pot) place it sideways, about half of it buried in the gravel

A clay pot in planted aquaria

Guess I now know the difference between planted aquaria and aquascaping.

Cichlid Central

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Cichlid Central


Well, I was using the clay pot more as a visual guide to a structure that is yet to be defined, if that makes any sense .

Conceptually, I believe that I would need something that has walls and a top, basically a clay pot (and no, I didn't yet "borrow" a pot from my wife for the tank and neither did I buy one).

Is that more scape like, tetratech?

Ingo


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Here is another idea for you. Get the pot and silicon your gravel to it. Then suround it by other rocks and cover them with plants as Matt said. This might help it fit in more.

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Post InfoPosted 26-Apr-2006 14:42Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by tetratech
What do cichlids do in nature? Do they use clay pots that old ladies threw in the lake after their flowers die. Arrange something more nature or do what Wings said. If I see a clay pot on it's side in the aquascaping or planted aquaria forums I'm going to insist that the mods move all your stuff to Cichlid Central

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Well, I don't think LF wants rotting leaf litter on the bottom of his tank, so that throws out the "do it like nature" idea

I think the clay pot can be pulled off pretty easily and effectively. Ya can't just leave it sticking up in the middle of the scape, that would look ugly. But if you lay it on its side with the mouth pointing towards the front of the tank or whichever area you want to view it from, and then bury half of it under the gravel so that only a "half moon" is sticking out of the bottom that should work. Cover it with moss or let Wisteria grow in around it. It'll be invisible in no time.

Or just let them find their own spot, which may happen anyway


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Well, I don't think LF wants rotting leaf litter on the bottom of his tank

Sounds good to me

There are many rocks you could use to create a honeymoon suite! Wisteria and clay pots. Talk about your "Weed Garden"



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tetratech
Or just let them find their own spot, which may happen anyway
Which brings me back to the original question, which was like "do you think it is advisable to add a cave" (I wrote case, but that is what I meant)

So I guess in the interest of not having my thread moved to Cichlid Central, and in the interest not to upset my AquaScaping friends, I may just let them find their own territory.

In any way, what would be the chances of survival for any fry in this fish-invested tank ? Being really slow growers they run too many risks, being eaten, sucked into the filter, sucked into the drain during water change, and what not.

Ingo


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If they're first time spawners it's likely that the parents will eat the fry before the other fish get a chance to.

After a couple swawns they may get the hang of parenting and a few might make it, but it's a crap shoot.

I am of the opinion that when fish start breeding in a community tank it's best to just let nature take its course and work from there. If they spawn and none make it, be happy that WC is good enough for them to spawn. If a few make it, you have some nice additions to your tank or some nice fish to sell. If you really want to breed them and raise the fry then a seperate tank would be best


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So I guess in the interest of not having my thread moved to Cichlid Central, and in the interest not to upset my AquaScaping friends, I may just let them find their own territory

Well I certainly appreciate that. I was about to direct you a site that sells underwater neon lights and those little divers that circle around the tank with an airline tube attached.

Hard to say if any wil survive. To be honest I think my rams might have given up after three attempts. Unless they are laying eggs in one of the seven layers of wisteria.
You could always cover the intake with a netting to help out. It also depends if your espei turn into little piranhas like my cardinals do when the see fry.


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I was about to direct you a site that sells underwater neon lights and those little divers that circle around the tank with an airline tube attached.



Oh goodie, yeah - I need that link. Are the neon lights blinking and moving around like a lighthouse beam? "Burn baby burn, disco inferno"



Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Apr-2006 16:35Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Yeah the ones that burn the fish retinas so they spaz out and people think they are "dancing".

I honestly don't think hiding a clay pot or other such formation would be very hard in a 125 tank. The pot or similar structure wouldn't have to be very big, just enough for them to fit into. It would easily dissapear into whatever aquascape you wanted. Add some plant mass to the structure and it can even be mostly buried. I would think that it would be less bulky and eyecatching than a "natural" formation to make a cave.

That's all assuming that they could even find whatever you put in there for them. I'm not sure that apisto territories are as large as a 125.



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A good alternative to a flowerpot is a more natural looking ceramic cave like the ones they have at www.cichlidbreeding.com. I just bought a bunch of them for an African tank, and they really do look quite natural underwater, and could just as easily be hidden by plants and hardscape. You could even dispurse several of them throughout the tank so that they would have more choice of territories.

Hoping that there must be a word for everything I mean...
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Yeah the ones that burn the fish retinas so they spaz out and people think they are "dancing".


They really aren't dancing to the disco lights? Dang it! I guess its time to get that out of my tank. I have been hiding it from you guys behind my "thing".

Just remember LF this is your tank. You do what you want. I if you want to try to hide a pot then go for it. If you want it to have flowers coming out of it like a old lady through it in the river then have flowers coming out of it. Just make sure to use the old faded plastic ones.

But really... I don't think it would hurt anything to put in some "breeding" structure. They may or may not use it or even want to breed. Who knows really....

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Post InfoPosted 26-Apr-2006 19:48Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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LF already said he will "let nature take it's course" and not taint the courtship with an 1-800-FLOWERS BOUQUET.

If you guys had your way he'd end up removing everything and have a bare bottom breeders tank with a bunch of knocked over flower pots.

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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
illustrae - thank you so much, that is a nice link. Some of these structures look kind of weird, but the first one of the Breeding Cave section would be suitable, I think.

Wings - you are right, it is my tank. But I value your (your as in all FP members) input. If it wouldn't have been for you folks my tank would for sure not look like it does now. Come to think of it, maybe that would have been a good thing

Ingo

EDIT: Didn't see tetratech's input until I finished mine, so tetratech -


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Post InfoPosted 26-Apr-2006 20:13Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Well, everyone got very excited about the flowerpot thing.

I guess I'm still going to do it, but it won't be in my planted community tank, but in a separate dedicated tank for my P.Taeniatus Moliwe. I've found myself some aquarium safe clear silicone & I'm going to attach gravel in & outside of it & then tie some java moss to it. Or I might look around for a natural looking ornament cave that I can also hide with bunch of java moss tied to it.

I hope it won't be too much of an eyesore, but the main goal of this separate tank will be for my P.Taeniatus Moliwe to breed.

That should mean my 43.G log, without the contamination of a disguised flowerpot, should be allowed to stay in the planted forum.

Cheers
TW
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i think you should get a large peice of wood and drill it out to create holes and caves of the right size , very easy to do and you can have small openings with large caves behind them. also another good place to look for realistic looking rock caves is in the reptile section at lfs , my lfs lets me look through all the supplier catalogues at my leisure and the available range is huge.



cheers dan

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dan,

Nice idea with the drill wood idea. I like it!

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[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 27-Apr-2006 03:12Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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What do cichlids do in nature? Do they use clay pots that old ladies threw in the lake after their flowers die.




Do I need to say anything ? Sure you already know my opinion on having a claypot in there.

I do like the neon lights idea though And a disco ball


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Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 27-Apr-2006 03:42Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks all for the input

Robyn - quickly to your cave vision: I would not glue anything on the inside. What would that be good for? I would assume that the fish would rather lay their eggs on a flat surface.

Dan - I know you are the handyman and I have had the pleasure to see quite a few of your tank constructions (mattenfilter and tank background). I - on the other hand - do not only not have the tools but also don't really enjoy making things myself (as I know that someone in my house is breathing down my neck for any extra time that I spend on this hobby).

Bensaf - You made the 2000th post in this log. Sure not as spectacular than the number 1000 was, but still special.

I would like to use this chance to thank all people that have contributed in one way or another to not only drive this log but also help me to get the tank where it is now. Does that mean I will slow down? No way, I still have miles to go before the tank is done, if ever. Algae will have to be defeated, an aquascape has to be created, more fish need to be added ( - first I have to sell another 30 Espei though), and what not.

Thanks again to all of you,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 27-Apr-2006 11:30Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
dan76
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ingo , when i was at high school i was very inept at practical things , but good at theory, didnt want to go to university so i decided to become a tradesman, best decision ever.
i would encourage everybody to look into it , as manual skills are just something you learn and really do give a feeling of achievement when you can do stuff around the house that looks good and satisfys (sp?) the need .

also in australia trades pay really well at the moment with the skilled labour shortage , i earn just on 6 figures a year for 40 hours a week and get to go home to have smoko and lunch each day . a pretty good wicket for 7 to 330 each day .


if you want work pm me ha ha ha


cheers dan



OH TOLEEDY!
Post InfoPosted 27-Apr-2006 12:37Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
dan76
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also dont forget the mattenfilter was a complete failure , 150 dollars aus for foam that doesnt last a month




OH TOLEEDY!
Post InfoPosted 27-Apr-2006 12:40Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
What would that be good for?
Ok, I won't do it then. I only thought to do it, in case I don't invert, but instead put it on it's side and in doing so, the inner would be visible. Thought it would be less noticeable if it matched the general substrate, instead of standing out with it's clay pot colour. Maybe I'll look around for some kind of cave ornament/s instead, & completely wrap them in java moss. I like the drilling holes in wood idea too, but don't think I have time to find or soak the wood, before I have to bring the fish home. Most of the articles on the fish I'm getting, including those links you gave me (thanks), talked about greater breeding success using the pots, but none mentioned the gluing bit. Have to decide soon, as my fish have arrived in Oz now & are currently in QT (either with Customs or the LFS - not sure which).

And there'll be no pots or ornaments in my planted tank (just my natural rocks & plants).

Edit - Oh, forgot to say congrats on the 2,000 posts

Cheers
TW
Post InfoPosted 27-Apr-2006 15:14Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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also dont forget the mattenfilter was a complete failure , 150 dollars aus for foam that doesnt last a month


Hate when that happens!

LF,
2000 post? is that counting the ones lost in action?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 27-Apr-2006 15:27Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks all for the input.

Dan - nah, physical work is nothing for me . At least not anymore. You sure make loads of money, it seems like, althoug 6 figures could be 100,000 or 999,999 Auatralian Dollars .

Robyn - Don't worry about not having a cave in time for your fish to arrive. You can always get it later. Even if you would lose the first batch, there may be many to follow.

Wings - During the site update Adam removed all counts that were based on deleted entries. Also, the posts during down-time this week were also not counted as short threads that had about 6 entries showed 3 afterwards (I don't remember how many posts I lost in this log on that day).


New Topic: Does anyone already have the June TFH magazine? There is an article about Mr. EI himself, Tom Barr. It talks about his annual PlantFest trip and is very informative. There are also two shots that show the man himself, but I have to say he doesn't look like I expected. All shots are from far away and side or back, but he looks like a college kid (hope you see that as a compliment, Tom, if you should ever read my log). Bensaf, he has short hair like us, but he has more of it than we do together .

Just thought I share that,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 27-Apr-2006 17:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
Bensaf, he has short hair like us, but he has more of it than we do together

You guys know what each of you look like. Oh I get it, one of those online dating services, right

My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 27-Apr-2006 18:41Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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EditedEdited by NowherMan6
You guys know what each of you look like.


Hey, we only know what you look like with goggles and snorkel. When do we get to see tetratech's identity?


EDIT: LF, in the article are they critical of the EI method, or is it fairly unbiased. I know there is some opposition to it out there, but what is their take?


Back in the saddle!
Post InfoPosted 27-Apr-2006 18:56Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Well how have to warm up to it.

Here's a pic of my pup and my foot:
A little bit of Scotland on Long Island



Attached Image:


My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 27-Apr-2006 19:09Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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What tetratech, you still have snow out there?

Nice foot

NowherMan6, the article doesn't mention EI at all, it is all about Tom's annual trip thing. And if it would have mentioned EI it could not have been unfavorable as someone in the trip is the author (I think) of it .

Ingo

Ah, and you all know that Bensaf's and my picture are public here at FP


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Post InfoPosted 27-Apr-2006 19:53Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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What tetratech, you still have snow out there?

I think it's a nuclear winter. You know from all the L.I. landfills.



My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 27-Apr-2006 19:57Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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No way there's still snow in LI, except maybe on the very top of all those garbage mountains in the LI landfills.

Cute Collie though...


Back in the saddle!
Post InfoPosted 27-Apr-2006 20:24Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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Sure glad I just have to live next to the great lakes and not that crazy stuff out east!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 27-Apr-2006 20:34Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
No way there's still snow in LI, except maybe on the very top of all those garbage mountains in the LI landfills

The pic is from earlier in the spring.
Nowher's thanks for the comments on the pup. She's actually a shetland sheepdog (I know looks like a little collie) I think the breed was created by mixing a border collie and pomperian. This way they created a smaller dog that could herd on the ruggered hills of the Shetland Islands.



My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 27-Apr-2006 20:39Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
tetratech, your pup is sooooo cute

Ah, and you all know that Bensaf's and my picture are public here at FP
Now I'm curious, what does this mean "public here at FP"

Cheers
TW
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NowherMan6
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Tetra, thougt it may have been one of those. Hard to tell when they're laying down, collie's have longer legs. I'm sure your girl has shorter legs.

TW, there is a thread in Recovery Room where many have posted their pictures - Bensaf and LF are amongst those brave enough


Back in the saddle!
Post InfoPosted 28-Apr-2006 02:00Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Thanks for the pup comments you two.
Yeah Nowher, I knew your probably thought it could be a sheltie. Yes she has short legs about 15" at the hips.

Since LF is going to turn this into Cichlid Central I guess anything goes. How does "Sheepdog Station" sound to you.

My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 28-Apr-2006 03:12Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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EditedEdited by bensaf
Nice dog, they call them Shelties in Europe.

That's your foot ? Seriously that is one girly foot It looks like the nails are manicured and polished ! My feet look like they've been beaten with a hammer everyday for the last 20 years !!!!.And they are hairy

It's not that me and LF are brave enough to post our pics, we are simply too good looking to keep the good stuff to ourselves. Got to share and let others enjoy, appreciate and generally bathe in our glory

Yeah, I know what Tom Barr looks like. He is quite young. For some reason people always imagine him as some old guy with a beard He's a pretty normal un-nerdy looking guy. He's into rock and plays the bass. Most of us plant geeks are surprisingly normal in the real world.

Reminds me of a thread on APC for plant geeks to post pictures of themselves. I have to say generally that plant geeks are a fine looking bunch of men. The wife saw it - took her a few days before she finally stopped drooling Hotties apparently. Maybe we should do a plant geek calender ! You know standing around in Calvin Klein undies holding our planting tweezers between our teeth, is that a piece of driftwood in your pocket or are you just pleased to see me kinda thing

OK, I think Robyn had to go lie down.

Don't think too many of them paint their toenails though


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 28-Apr-2006 03:54Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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EditedEdited by Wingsdlc
Last time I checked guy, fish were not sopposed to be fuzzy or fury!

Edit: Wow Ben!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 28-Apr-2006 03:57Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Get that calendar going guys

Be still my quaking heart...... I may be able to stand up again shortly .......

Cheers
TW
Post InfoPosted 28-Apr-2006 05:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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The FP Plant Nerd Calendar 2007 is coming out shortly. Each month features another good looking gentleman showing off his equipment (planted tank equipment ). Some highlights are June featuring Bensaf with his small tweezers, April with Wings and his "Thing", October with tetratch cracking his whip, January with NowherMan6 and his dwarf gouramie, and December with LITTLE_FISH and his retrospiralis.



Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 28-Apr-2006 14:07Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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LF,

I don't think I have ever laughed so hard!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 28-Apr-2006 14:17Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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Let me know when copies are available. My equally nerdy marathon running girlfriends will all want a copy, so naturally, multiple copies will be required.

Cheers
TW
Post InfoPosted 28-Apr-2006 16:54Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Some highlights are June featuring Bensaf with his small tweezers, April with Wings and his "Thing", October with tetratch cracking his whip, January with NowherMan6 and his dwarf gouramie, and December with LITTLE_FISH and his retrospiralis


Not just dwarf gourami - pygmy croaking gourami. That's right, pygmy.

Also, shouldn't April feature Wings and his Giant Hygro instead?


Back in the saddle!
Post InfoPosted 28-Apr-2006 17:11Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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pygmy croaking gourami. That's right, pygmy.


It croaks ? That must be embarassing


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 29-Apr-2006 03:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
jase101
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hello little fish -

i skim thru yr posts every now and again, and may have missed some stuff on yr apistos, but here goes - re: breeding caves...

i breed a. cacatuoides regularly (in a community setup, so there's hardly ever surviving spawn) but i use film cannisters - as in the little black containers you buy film for your camera in. i drill a small hole in the base so water can flow thru (this only needs to be a couple of mm wide,it's not for fish access) and place them on their sides at a 30 degree angle or so, mouth down, surround and weigh them down with some small rocks, sprinkle some gravel over the rocks and bob's your uncle. they are inconspicuous because they're black, small enough for your female apisto's to enter and protect easily, and the male can still fertilise them either by entering if he's small, and as he gets bigger, fanning his milt into the cave. my tank is planted (not as densely as yours) and it used to really annoy me to take up so much ground space with clay pots, and they're ugly, and they are too big IMO for most apisto girls to protect in a community setup. my ale cack is about 3inches long (what a gorgeous beast he is) and his ladies are all half that size - and they all use the film cannisters in preference to the larger pots....

anyway, good luck with whatever you choose to do.
Post InfoPosted 29-Apr-2006 23:55Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Bensaf -

Jase - Thank you so much for the input, for two reasons. First of all your insight into breeding Apistos is very helpful. It appears that I would be able to add these film canisters at any point in time without having to mess with my aquascape at all, given their size. Secondly, I always like to hear from the people that usually just read (skim) through my log. It shows me that there is a greater audience than the people who normally post (although there is nothing wrong with them either ). Thanks


Well - Weekly Tank Update, Week 31

This week did not see any changes to the tank, no additions and no removals. I maintained my light and fertilizer schedule, also with one day of not feeding the fish. It appears to me as if the algae is slightly on the decline, I may be wrong though and this is only wishful thinking.

The weekly maintenance included quite a bit of trimming, which with the Star Grass is always worrysome as I have to remove them completely and replant the tops. This stirrs up quite a bit of gunk. A few other plants needed trimming as well, for example one major stem of the Alternanthera on the right tank side. Here it is before trimming:

Attached Image:

Alternanthera Growing Out Of Water



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Post InfoPosted 30-Apr-2006 11:56Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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This is a shot from last week, showing that the Star Grass reached the top already in a few spots. This was only one week after it was last trimmed. Without a doubt this plant, given its speed and volume in my tank, is the major nutrient sucker:

Attached Image:

Tank Last Week After Maintenance



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Post InfoPosted 30-Apr-2006 11:59Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Now, this is a shot from yesterday BEFORE the water change and trimming. You can see how well the Star Grass has grown. It became so big that it shaded most plants in front of it, for example the Wisteria and the Crypt Wendtii. Also, the Hygro angustifolia has reached a significant height were large leaves started to float on the surface. Behind it you may make out that stem of Alternanthera:

Attached Image:

Tank This Weekend Before Trimming



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Post InfoPosted 30-Apr-2006 12:03Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Here is a closer look at the middle section of the tank with the Star Grass group before trimming. I have to say that it looks very nice. But just look at the bottom right corner of the shot, there you see how shaded the lower parts of the stems are. These areas receive no light anymore and lower leaves die off, creating lots of gunk for the tank.

Also, do you like the Fish-Autobahn in front of the plants ?

Attached Image:

Star Grass Before Trimming



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Post InfoPosted 30-Apr-2006 12:07Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Now here is a shot from this weekend after trimming. The Star Grass was removed and quite a bit of the bottom were cut off. This should give me about 2 to 3 weeks before the next trimming of it. Also, the tallest stem of the Hygro was cut off and replanted, I cannot afford to lose the fast growers at this time so I stuck the cutting in the middle of the Crypt group to the right of the Star Grass (almost invisible in this shot). It shouldn't be too hard for you folks to see where I placed the Alternanthera top

Attached Image:

Tank After Trimming - This Weekend



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Post InfoPosted 30-Apr-2006 12:11Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Here is a close-up of the trimmed Alternanthera top. This picture could also be called "The Beauty and the Beast". The nice Alternanthera in contrast to the Thread algae on the driftwood and small amounts of BBA on the Crypt Retrospiralis leaves.

Attached Image:

Alternanthera Close-Up



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Post InfoPosted 30-Apr-2006 12:14Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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This picture shows how I add water back into the tank, which are over 60G, BTW. I used to simply hang the end of the vacuum into the water and let it fill up. This had the problem that with rising water level the vacuum end also changed position (from vertical to almost horizontal), changing the angle at which the water shoots out. This caused various taller plants to be washed around in the fill current and also stirred up some gunk under these plants.

Now I stick the end of the vacuum between the top of my thermometer and the glass of the tank. This way, the vacuum stays in the same position for the whole filling and no gunk is stirred up in the back. Also, and maybe even more importantly, I get the best reading of the temperature of the added water as it streams right by the thermometer.

Attached Image:

Refill Trick



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Post InfoPosted 30-Apr-2006 12:20Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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All I have left to show for now are two shots of the Espei school. In this one you can see that one of the fishies seemed to show an interest of what is going on in front of the tank. All others do what they always do, swim from left to right and back . Actually rather often than not they just hang in the current and wait until something eatable is coming their way, lazy gang.

Attached Image:

Espei On The Run



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Post InfoPosted 30-Apr-2006 12:24Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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This is a similar shot than the last one. The main exception is that there is a Dwarf Rainbow regulating the traffic on the Autobahn. Or maybe she wants to cross but cannot find the gap in the rush hour traffic. Can you find her?

BTW, by now I am rather convinced that the loss of my duck weed can be attributed to the appetite of my fishies. I must have reduced its size too much and the remainer was not enough to outpace the speed by which they were eaten. I now see in particular the Rainbows (but also the Espei) nibbling on plants, lose leaves of the Star Grass are their favorites (also - the platies in the 29G much down all tips of a tall stem in less than a day).

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

German Autobahn At Rush Hour



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Post InfoPosted 30-Apr-2006 12:29Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Great photos Ingo. My camera can't take photos of moving fish - everything is a blur.

No doubt I'm wrong, but is your rainbow centre shot, facing the camera? If so, she looks a little cranky she can't find an opening to cross.

jase101, I like your film cannister idea. I have one now that my hubby drilled about 5 tiny little holes in (too little for fish to swim though, like you said). I'll get some more too & when I put them in my black gravel - you'll hardly see them (what with plants & what not). Great idea.

Cheers
TW
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LITTLE_FISH
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No doubt I'm wrong, but is your rainbow centre shot, facing the camera?
Right on Robyn, right on

Yeah, the camera is a bit fancy
NowherMan6 not only picked out the driftwood for this tank, he also was the one that suggested the macro lens for this camera. That is where the nice close-ups come from.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 30-Apr-2006 13:32Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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Cool photos. I only have a kodak easy share - which was all I ever needed before fish. Still, I have too many other things on the shoping list before I can think about a camera.

Cheers
TW
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Your tanks is looking great!

Glad to see the algae is on the decline.

Rick
See all my pictures at Google Web Albums
Post InfoPosted 30-Apr-2006 15:10Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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LF,

As always, super great pictures. I really wish I could take the close ups you do of your fish. I really like them.

I also love the color of your Alternanthera. Is the lower part of the plant that same color red? If not I am going to say that light plays a major roll in red plants to color up. I might try the tetratech more iron thing but I am pretty much sold the light is the number one red color producer.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 01-May-2006 06:20Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Hi Ingo

I know this doesn't really belong in your log, but because we did talk about them here & I'm a bit sad about this news, thought I'd share it with people who'd understand. My imported fish I've been waiting for arrived in Sydney & were meant to be in QT with the shop. I spoke with LFS on Saturday past & arranged to collect my pair next weekend. Just got an email to say the female was DOA. I was waiting so long for these fish Decided not to go ahead with the male alone, cause who knows when they'll get another female. I've asked them to let me know when they have a pair next coming in.

Cheers
TW
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Thanks everybody for the input

Rick - Yeah, it seems the algae is slooooooowly on the retreat, although I am still holding my breath.

Wings - It is more the upper parts, but more accurately the younger leaves, that are red. I doubt that it is the light that causes this as the plant in the close-up was grown in the corner of the tank (back right).

Robyn - Sorry to hear about the female. While I was reading your entry I was hoping that you didn't make a mercy purchase and got the male by himself. This post is actually very fitting for my log as I have asked myself this question many times over: "What would I do if the female Apisto dies". These fish in area are rare and usually only offered as pairs. So having a single male would either mean he has to stay by himself or I have 2 males and one female (if I would buy another pair) - not a good setup. I am glad that you decided to wait for a new pair to arrive. And you really haven't been waiting for such a long time, it just felt like that because you were so excited to get them. Sorry again,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 01-May-2006 11:01Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
You're right, it wasn't that long - just a few days over 4 weeks. You're also right that I was excited about them - so that did make it seem like ages. I thought I was going to be pressured into buying the male - as that was the suggestion in their email, but LFS accepted it when I said I wanted a pair only. Only fair really, as they told me in the first place I could only buy a pair.

I hope there is someone out there in Sydney who has a lonely female, just waiting for a mate

They told me to contact their importer, to find out when & what dwarf cichlids he'll next bring in. Waiting for him to get back to me now. So, it's back to the drawing board for that tank. It will definitely be a tank dedicated to a pair of rarer dwarf cichlids in the hopes of breeding. Also forgot to tell you - it's not the same tank - but a new tank, only slightly larger (about 3.7G larger - but a better shape - long, rather than high)

Cheers
TW
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Also forgot to tell you - it's not the same tank - but a new tank, only slightly larger (about 3.7G larger - but a better shape - long, rather than high)
Awesome, MTS at its finest

When will we find out more about that new tank? I know that you probably will not set up another high tech tank, but you could always go with low light plants (and even medium) for a "normal" tank.

Honestly, recent events here might give me the chance to upgrade one of my tanks, so keep an eye open for a new thread here at the planted forum where I may ask questions about my options.

Thanks,

Ingo


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Honestly, recent events here might give me the chance to upgrade one of my tanks, so keep an eye open for a new thread here at the planted forum where I may ask questions about my options.

Go LF go!

Wings - It is more the upper parts, but more accurately the younger leaves, that are red. I doubt that it is the light that causes this as the plant in the close-up was grown in the corner of the tank (back right).

But it was still probably getting more light than the rest of the plant right?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 01-May-2006 14:45Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
I got this new 23.7G (long) tank because of issues with my QT 20G (high). See my thread http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/threads/28748.1.htm?1# for the reasons & maybe you can give me some advice about sterilizing that tank. The last straw was a platy death, less that 24 hrs after introduction. Death was more than likely stress related due to his move, but I lost faith in the tank. It was to have been the home for the imported cichlids (that are no longer coming) & I didn't want to risk putting them in that tank. In some ways, it's good I have extra time to get this tank planted, since the cichlids aren't coming now. I knew I wouldn't be allowed to have another tank set-up (electricity & water usage issues about that) so I arranged with LFS to do a trade-in. However, when I came home with new tank & told hubby what I'd done, he bought the tank off me for the trade-in price, but said it won't be set up for time being (I'd love to be able to set it up - but it's going in the garage for now). So, now that it's emptied I'm cleaning it out & asking for advice in thread mentioned above.
I know that you probably will not set up another high tech tank, but you could always go with low light plants (and even medium) for a "normal" tank.
It will be low tech, flourish excel & low light plants. I'll start a new log, but do you think it belongs in cichlid central - it will be planted, but it will eventually be home for some sort of imported dwarf cichlid. For the 1st time, the LFS who were importing the fish for me, are also importing ADA aquasoil & there is some sort of ADA package / mixture which includes power sand & other stuff which Amano uses in his planted tanks. As the tank may go high tech one day (who knows) I may as well have the right substrate in there from the get go. Although I have some cycling fish (platys) in the tank now, it has no substrate yet, waiting for LFS to confirm availability of the Amano substrates. Hope to get it this weekend. I'll empty the tank temporarily to add substrate & plants. So, what do you think - cichlid central or planted aquaria. There'll be no clay pots but there will be some film cannisters. If it goes in planted aquaria, I'd mainly chat about the plants, but still mentioned the fish here & there. I definitely have MTS. I now have 3 tanks running, my hubby has my old one (but it will be stored for now) & if I were allowed, I run down to the shop & buy 2 or 3 small ones for fry grow out. I'm about to post in my log about some new fry.

Can't wait for your new thread. Did you do some fancy talking or something?

Cheers
TW
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So, what do you think - cichlid central or planted aquaria.
- I don't think it would be too hard for you to guess my answer
Can't wait for your new thread. Did you do some fancy talking or something?
Fancy Talking - I don't even know what that is .

No, that is for real

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 01-May-2006 16:56Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Hi,
Generally speaking, you ought to post in which ever forum
you feel the "question" belongs. Tank Logs seem to
change topics, not subjects, as the thread matures and
the participants comment and question various entries.

To decide where to post the first entry, decide what is
the primary thrust of the Log. Is it going to be Cichlids
(are you going to specialize in one, or breed one) or
is it going to be aimed primarily at plants?

Keep in mind that many visitors will go to the forum that
pertains to their interests. For instance, I don't have
any cichlids, and so rarely if ever, visit that forum.

Frank


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Post InfoPosted 01-May-2006 20:03Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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Thanks Frank, at the moment I don't even have the cichlids & I don't know when I will, so at least to start off, I'm getting it ready for plants.

Cheers
TW
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EditedEdited by tetratech
Hi all,

Had some business to attend to in Florida and decided to take the kids to Universal for a few days. After riding the Hulk coaster 4 times I now know what a fish feels like when it get's sucked up the gravel wash.

Tank is looking good. Glad to see the algae is somewhat subsiding even if it's only in your mind. Keep with a steady schedule, high co2, less food, more thick groups and I think you'll be fine.

I really like the way the stargrass looks like a big mound in the BEFORE water change pic, can't tell if you've spread it even further from the center in the AFTER pic.
I think that mound with stargrass, wood and foreground can really be an amazing center piece of your aquarium especially with all those espei running through it. I know you post alot of fish pics, but those last ones of the espei are REALLY beautiful.



My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 02-May-2006 18:54Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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After riding the Hulk coaster 4 times I now know what a fish feels like when it get's sucked up the gravel wash.
And you had to pay for it as well

Keep with a steady schedule, high co2, less food, more thick groups
I am working on it

I really like the way the stargrass looks like a big mound in the BEFORE water change pic
Yeah, I liked it too. And you have no idea how tempted I was to place the Anubias in front of the Star Grass as they wouldn't mind being shaded at all (unlike the current plants in that spot). But I decided it is not the right time to mess with the tank again, instead I will wait until all is stable and then mess it up again .

but those last ones of the espei are REALLY beautiful
Oh thank you, I appreciate the compliment . Wanna have some Espei?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 02-May-2006 20:11Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by tetratech
LF,
I appreciate the Espei offer, but would have no place to put them with 17 cardinals holding tuff. If my cardinals start dropping I'll definitely take you up on it.

Bensaf,
Lighting can do wonders even for feet. Believe me my feet get no special treatment and have never had polish on them even in my college days when I was passed out in front of the "Porcelin Princess", but thanks for the compliment.


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Post InfoPosted 02-May-2006 20:27Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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LF,
So was bored tonight so I went through and looked for your picture! All I have to say is you look like the blues guy that rides my bus!

Oh and there are some cuties on this site.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 04-May-2006 07:03Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Hey Wings - so what's the name of the thread to look for?

Cheers
TW
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All I have to say is you look like the blues guy that rides my bus!

This fella must be really handsome then

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 04-May-2006 10:52Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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The post your picture thread ~ The recovery room

This fella must be really handsome then

Umm yeah.....and a little wierd. I think he works for WMU but I am not 100% sure. Anyways he is always on the bus with some really really big headphones(like the ones they would use in a studio) and grooving to the blues.

I was really expecting to see someone much older when I found your picture. It is almost weird now knowing what you look like.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 04-May-2006 14:34Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
I was really expecting to see someone much older when I found your picture. It is almost weird now knowing what you look like.
I guess I will take that as a compliment. You know that I know what you look like (although it is a while ago that I saw the picture). You in a pond/river having a banana - eh, bandana - on your head.

Ingo

EDIT: Ah - I didn't see that you bumped that thread with your own picture, but yeah, that is what I remembered.


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You know that I know what you look like (although it is a while ago that I saw the picture). You in a pond/river having a banana - eh, bandana - on your head.


Bandana? Its a ball cap on backwards half folded under itself. When I hooked into that fish I had a bunch of junk hanging around my neck and I had all I could do to get it off so I could fight the fish. Man I need to get back in there and hook another one.... maybe this weekend.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 04-May-2006 18:28Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Are you looking to get rid of some espei again? I wouldn't mind taking some off your hands but I am moving in about a week and don't need to worry about anything extra.

55G Planted tank thread
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[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 04-May-2006 18:33Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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I would post my pic, but I currently still have more hair than algae so I don't want to &nbsp; anyone off and then they'll take it out on my tank I just want to be loved

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Post InfoPosted 04-May-2006 22:42Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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but I currently still have more hair than algae


Well, you wouldn't need much hair as you have almost no algae

Me, on the other hand

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 05-May-2006 00:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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C'mon Ingo, fess up. That is you with the big headphones bopping away to Depeche Mode

Check out the last post I made in this thread maybe of some interest to you guys.
http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/threads/28532.1.htm?0.09817231#259770


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Post InfoPosted 05-May-2006 06:05Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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You found me out, bensaf I confess, it was me

About your link, yeah - I read the "original" the other day, the one you refer to in your foot-note. I have to say it makes sense to me as well. Only problem is that you cannot see these tiny buggers waiting in yout tank for their chance to take over again .

BTW, this week so far seems to have more algae decline, although I start to discover more BBA, this time the tiny black beard on plant leaves, even on the Hygro angustifloia. I attribute this to the change in water parameters that on one hand seem to drive out more and more thread algae but on the other hand open the door for BBA. At least this type I can fight off with Excel, but I will wait a while to see how it goes.\

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 05-May-2006 13:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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LF,

Have you been useing Excel on this tank? I need to buy some more here soon that way I can use it once I move. I am getting a good amount of green spot on my plants. Not so sure the excel will help though...

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 05-May-2006 14:33Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Wings,

Yeah, I have been using Excel twice (for a week each) on this tank, to fight off BBA, quite a while ago. I doubt that it does anything for (or against) any other form of algae.

I heard about people that frequently use Excel to avoid BBA in the first place, but I am currently not willing to try that out. There must be a way to stay BBA free without having to fight it with such extreme measures.

On to the usual topic for this time of the week:

Weekly Tank Update - Week 32

Not much, if anything at all, has happened during this week. I used the standard dosage of ferts that I am using for a while now. Further, I made it a consistent habit not to feed the fish on Fridays. Algae in the lowest regions has not changed, but interestingly the upper regions seem to have almost completely cleared up (with the exception of a few bushels of BBA).

The maintenance besides the water change this weekend was easy, I just trimmed a few longer stems off the Star Grass. Maybe I don't even have to replant that group next weekend as I think I gave it a strong cut last week and it may last for 3 weeks now.

I don't have many pictures to show this time, but here is a shot of the tank from last week, for comparison:

Attached Image:

Tank One Week Ago



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Post InfoPosted 07-May-2006 12:51Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Here is the tank now from this weekend.

I have not trimmed the Ludwigia on the left at all, the fact that it hangs over the Anubias group is not a problem as these plants don't need that much light.

The Hygro angustifolia on the right is beginning to seriously shade all other plants in that area, I guess next weekend I will have to make some changes in that spot.

I am also considering of cutting part of my main driftwood block off. I figured I could easily remove a major section of the fat end of the branch. This way I creat more space for plants and also might gain something in the visual appearance of the tank. On the other hand, this means I first have to remove that monster and this scares me.

Here is the tank now:

Attached Image:

Tank Last Night



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Post InfoPosted 07-May-2006 12:58Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Now here are two shots of the tank a little closer. I usually show the tank completely and real close-ups, so I thought some half-distance shots may be nice.

This is the area of the tank that once (a long time ago) was known as Rock Valley. Now it is home to various plants that begin to crowd each other. Also, take your time while admiring the graceful Pearls

Attached Image:

Right Off-Center



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Post InfoPosted 07-May-2006 13:02Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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And this is already the last shot for now, the left side of the tank.

It always seems like I have a particular unorganized plant collection on that side of my tank, like it is the repository for any plant that I don't know where else to put it .

In this small section I have about 12 different plants, like 3 types of Anubias, 4 types of Crypts, Pearl Grass, Wisteria, Ludwigia, Helferi, and Alternanthera. Plus, this is where a lot of fish like to hang out (maybe because I feed in this section and when they see me they always come there, even if I fed them just 10 minutes earlier).

Attached Image:

Left Tank Side Plant Mix



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Post InfoPosted 07-May-2006 13:07Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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hey looking really good!! love the log
wats the brown plant behind the pearl grass??
/:'
Post InfoPosted 07-May-2006 15:59Profile Homepage MSN PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
r0b3y,

Thanks for the compliment

The brown plant behind the Pearl Grass is a Crypt Wendtii Red (mother plant). I have not been too successful in the past with my crypt wendtiis, I guess because I always bought tiny ones and never left them in one spot to grow out (I have the tendency too change to much too quickly ).

But you see that there is a more reddish plant behind the Wendtii as well (just to make sure you know that this are two different ones). That is the Alternanthera.

Thanks again,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 07-May-2006 16:26Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Ok guys,

I don't have too much time right now, but if you are interested then details can follow later.

I just came back from the North Jersey Aquarium Society's fish and plant auction. What a huge event (and the first auction that I have ever been at). It was very interesting and loads of fish and plant where sold. I hade also the chance to chat again with two of the guys from my Planted Tank Round Table meeting at the LFS.

Here is a shot of the auction in progress. The stage in the back has tables all around, packed to the rim with mostly fish, but the right hand side were plants. The plastic bags you see in this picture is what was left after 3 hours of auction (about 30% I would guess).

Attached Image:

NJAS Auction



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Post InfoPosted 07-May-2006 23:41Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Upon arrival back home I had to take out the Apistos from the QT to add them to the big tank (reason will follow). There were the easiest fish to net, they almost swam right into the net - or at least didn't run off. I wish the Espei were like that.

Attached Image:

Apistos being adjusted



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Post InfoPosted 07-May-2006 23:43Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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And they had to go because these 3 cuties moved in. 3 additional Neon Dwarf Rainbows, all male. I had to have them, and got them in the end for $16. Pretty much the price I pay for one at my LFS.

More will follow later, got to go back and add water to the bags

Here they are getting ready:

Attached Image:

Rainbows in Bag



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Ok, the Rainbows are in the tank now, I will continue the adjustment process for the Apsitos for at least another 15 min.

Here are the Rainbows (2 photos):

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Rainbows in QT I



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
And here they are again, I think the photos came out great (if I may say so).

The Rainbows are slightly younger than the ones in the big tank, as such I hope their integration into the main group should not cause any major issues.

Make sure to look at the updates on the previous page

Attached Image:

Rainbows in QT II



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And now the Apistos are in their new home as well. The male went right off on an excursion. Within 5 minutes he ate the first snail. I saw him pick it up and then munching around on it, then he dissapeared into the thickets and I got a little worried I may have to perform the Heimlich Maneuver on him . But he seems fine now.

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Apsito viejita II Male



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Here is another shot of him a little closer. What I find amazing about this fish is his ability to turn that black stripe under his eye (actually through his eye) on and off at will. I haven't figured out yet when he turns it on, I assume it is when he is showing off.

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Apsito viejita II Male Closer



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The female Apisto has her black stripe turned on the whole time, I only saw her without it when I got them initially. Interestingly, within the rather short time in the plastic bag for acclimatication all her yellow color went to a dull gray, but within minutes in the tank it all was back to normal.

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Apsito viejita II Female



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Here is the female again, this time showing you one of the plants that I bought at the auction. An Anubias Hastifolia. Looks very nice, for the time being I wedged it between wood and rock in front of the Star Grass.

Another plant I bought was an Anubias Barteri, but I am not going to show you a picture of it, I have too many of these already anyway

Attached Image:

Crypt Hestifolia



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The last plant I would like to show is the final purchase I made at the auction, tetratech's Blyxa Japonica. I got 6 of them, most with 2 plants per stem, for $10. The only problem I have with them is that the stems are really short and there seem to be no roots below. Anchoring them in the substrate was quite a hassle, I hope they stay down.

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Blyxa Japonica



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Last but not least, a new full shot of the tank. You can see the new crypt and if you look carefully you may be able to count all 6 Blyxa Japonica spread out along the front glass.

Oh, and no, the fish are not all at the surface because the Apistos chased them into that area, it simply was feeding time

Attached Image:

Full Tank With New Plants



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EditedEdited by tetratech
Yes, the pics are beautiful

So let me get this straight, your going to "remove that monster" and you've just added 5 fish of substantial size to your tank.

Either you don't believe that your heavy load is contributing to your algae situation or you really are a "Protist Collaborator"

Sorry to sound like a party pooper, but I really think you need to add another filter to your tank if you want to be so fish heavy. I would even think about getting a wet/dry or a sump.

EDIT: Didn't see last pic, very nice full tank shot.









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Gee, thanks tetratech for bringing me back to reality

I actually added only 2 fish, the Apistos. The 3 Rainbows are in QT for a few weeks. I am usually pretty good about maintaining the QT routine and have yet to fail it. And the female Apisto is barely any larger than one Espei . Yeah, the male is a little bigger, but hey - I seem to be getting my algae a little more under control and I also added more plants .

Thanks for the compliment on the pictures,

Ingo


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EditedEdited by r0b3y
ingo just a thought.. maybe try a good quality fluidised bed filter?? it will help out with the heavy stock load also it will not drive off any valuable CO2..

r0b3y
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Ingo,

I don't have much to add on the new plants, but your tank is looking very nice. Your apistos are also very cool. Good Job! /:'

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r0b3y

- Good idea, I will have to read more about these filters to identfy their distinct advantage over a canister, if there is one. The one problem I have with adding any additional filter is the increase in current in the tank. I would not like to see my fish having to swim for their lives 24/7. That is pretty much the main reason why I haven't done anything about that yet.

slickrb

- Thanks . Yeah, I like my Apistos as well, I am glad I got them. I hope they will have a nice life in this tank. BTW, it seems like they are zooming in on finding a new house in that tank. I made out two spots that they both visited multiple times last night. One happens to be the area under the driftwood chunk on the left. So much about cutting that part off . The other area is a small gap between a rock and a small piece of driftwood to the right of the main group, just big enough for both to fit in, but it doesn't have a roof so it may rain in ().

Thanks to both of you for the input, I appreciate it,

Ingo


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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Your tank, as always, is beautiful. But those rainbows you have in QT are just gorgeous. Is it a trick of the light, or are they really that beautiful purple colour.

Cheers
TW
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Good observation on the color, Robyn

It is a combination of the "rainbow" effect of their sides (which usually are blueish at the right angle, otherwise silver) and the fact that I put my old 2x20W All-Glass T12s back over the tank. That was done because the existing bulbs are at the end of their live span (I see the tenellus not doing to well) and I haven't had the chance to get new bulbs yet.

So the color spectrum of these lights and the shimmering effect of the fish both contributed to this color effect (and maybe the camera settings as well), but I did not retouch the image.

Thanks for the compliment,

Ingo


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Great pics, LF Very very nice

I also just planted a few stems of blyxa in my 4G, in ADA substrate - we'll see if the substrate makes any differencein growth. I know what you mean with the roots though, they were hard to keep down.


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Post InfoPosted 08-May-2006 13:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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also just planted a few stems of blyxa in my 4G, in ADA substrate - we'll see if the substrate makes any differencein growth.

Makes sure that Blyxa get's lot's of light. It will not tolerate shade. I'm still deciding whether I want to add a foreground light to my tank.

BTW - Nowher when do we get to see this nano-paradise. I did scrap my plans or a scaped nano in lew of the reef I am planning...

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ingo, a FBF would be supplimentary to you rexisting filtration , you could have it in the return to your tank if the pump in your existing filter is strong enough. they need to have water that has already been mechanicly (sp?) filtered first or they will clog up. i have mine setup on my sump.
are neon rainbows really $16 us each.
they are $3.50 aus or something like that over here, you must have thought i was showing off when i bought 20

OH TOLEEDY!
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Thanks guys for the input

NowherMan6 - I don't know about ADA and Blyxa, but the guy I know who uses ADA soil says his Hair Grass really took off (he only uses the soil, not the power sand). And thanks for the compliments on the pictures, courtesy of your suggested macro lense .

tetratech - I know a foreground light would be a pain in the neck, but it may be worthwhile. I am sure your Riccia would profit from it as well. I guess this is one of the very few disadvantages of a bowfront.

Dan - Yeah, Rainbows are rather expensive in the LFS where I usually buy fishies. For that, their live stock is in much better shape than any store in the whole area. Adult Neon Dwarf Rainbows cost $20 (US), young ones, like the ones I have, $13 (US), and that does not include tax yet.

Thanks again,

Ingo


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I know a foreground light would be a pain in the neck, but it may be worthwhile. I am sure your Riccia would profit from it as well. I guess this is one of the very few disadvantages of a bowfront.


My situation is further complicated by a tall center and the thick wood. When the center is short I see better growth from the riccia, but yes you are right definitely a disadvantage of the bow in terms o direct light contact.

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I guess this is one of the very few disadvantages of a bowfront.


And don't forget the inability to take pictures from certain angles with certain lenses because of diffraction - my next tank will NOT be a bowfront

tetra - has your blyxa taken off at all in your 12G with more diretc light? don't want to go too off topic in LFs log but I think the info is beneficial to both of us


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tetra - has your blyxa taken off at all in your 12G with more diretc light? don't want to go too off topic in LFs log but I think the info is beneficial to both of us

Nope, samething comatose. The 12g only has 2.2wpg so maybe it's just not enough on a small tank even though direct.
One good thing is it doesn't die, it just doesn't grow, but you won't get that rich spectrum of color when it's really in optimium conditions.

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Nice pics there Ingo, nice fish too. I should upgrade my camera, but that's definitely not in the budget, especially since I'm thinking of upgrading both plant and reef tank soon.

Glad to hear the algae seems to be diminishing.

I wouldn't worry about the extra current from another filter. Cannisters have pretty slow flow due to their ability to do more filtration at once. I don't think your fish would suffer from another, maybe smaller, cannister. That's your call though on what you think was/is/has been causing the algae. I wouldn't add a wet/dry though due to the amount of aeration that usually causes. You'd have a hard time keeping CO2 up IMO.



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Post InfoPosted 08-May-2006 16:48Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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Talking about right conditions of the light:

At the NJAS auction I also met someone who has the same tank than I do and also the 4x96W light unit.

I forgot the details (silly me), but his schedule is sonewhat like running the lights for a total of 9 hours per day, during 6 of which all lights are on, and the earlier part he has one half only and the later part the other half only. That is the guy who auctioned off my Blyxa, so maybe in order to keep it happy I will have to shorten my overall light period (currently still 11h) and lengthen the intense ligh period (currently 3h).

Ingo


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Matty,

Sorry, I didn't see your entry until I posted mine. Thanks for the compliments on photos and fish

Yeah, I was never considering a wet/dry as I know about its CO2 removing abilities.

The current of my Eheim 2028 is pretty strong, this becomes more obvious when I feed the fish and the food drops down. I was thinking of creating a counter current from the other side of the tank (with a secons filter) but that would most likely mean (I guess) that I also need a second diffuser on that side as the current generated there would not let the bubbles from one side come over there.

Maybe I have to sell way more of my Espei to solve the problem.

Thanks Matty,

Ingo


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I wouldn't add a wet/dry though due to the amount of aeration that usually causes. You'd have a hard time keeping CO2 up IMO.

Matty you know more about sump mechanics than I do, but couldn't your put a diffusor under the return pump of the sump (wet/dry) to return any lost co2 to the tank. So in effect you would have an inline reactor as well as an in tank diffusor.

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Post InfoPosted 08-May-2006 18:11Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by mattyboombatty
Looking at the system this way:

Return(CO2 in) ---> display(High CO2 Conc.) ----> overflow(CO2 Diffusion due to aeration) ----> sump(low CO2 Conc.)

That might appear to work. If the flow through the wet/dry was slow enough it might in fact work, meaning that after the reactor in the return line CO2 rich water stays in the display for a greater period of time than the wet/dry, creating differential. However, that would mean that water is in the display for a longer period of time, and not in the wet/dry, thus making the filtration pointless because no water is being filtered. Sometimes refugiums are set up this way so that water flow is only 1X or less turnover through the fuge so the DSB and macroalgae can pull out every bit of nutrient from the water. Dirty water in, clean water out. The fact that there is a large difference helps the cause. In this case it seems to work because the goal is extraction of waste to plant or algae or anaerobic bacteria mass. The opposite of trying to add carbon into the system and a completely different method of filtration. Water can only be on the bioballs for a certain amount of time, no matter the flow....gravity here. I suppose if you had a huge column of bioballs it might work(fully extracting ALL ammonia in one pass).

However it doesn't work that way in a small system, and unfortunately you can't look at the system in its components, the difference in composition of water anywhere in the system is very very small, given there are no dead spots(which is what the wet/dry or fuge would have to be called in the above hypothesis). You have to look at the system on the whole generally and therefore you will most definitely have to increase CO2 to balance out the diffusion due to the amount of surface area exposed to the air in a wet/dry. No matter how you do it, more CO2 in the display or more at the return of the sump, way more CO2 will need to be put into the system.

A large system is a different story. There probably will be differentials in water composition between the sump and display if you have a thousand or two gallons in the display and the sump is remote and large as well. Heck, there would probably be slight differences in water composition on the left and right and top to bottom of the display. Flow would probably have to be slower through a system like that and would mostly rely on the huge amount of water to stay clean.

I think I managed to even confuse myself there a bit.



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Post InfoPosted 08-May-2006 20:58Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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Matty you know more about sump mechanics than I do, but couldn't your put a diffusor under the return pump of the sump (wet/dry) to return any lost co2 to the tank. So in effect you would have an inline reactor as well as an in tank diffusor.

If you look around on the planted forum there is a guy with a 200 some gallon tank running a system like what you are talking about.

BTW I leave for the weekend and all this happens! I am so far behind. I guess I should probably take a little brake from this place any ways. Never get things done!

Great pictures! Your fish look quite happy in their new home.

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If you look around on the planted forum there is a guy with a 200 some gallon tank running a system like what you are talking about.


I'd wonder if he could possibly get 30ppm of CO2 in his tank. Maybe, but I'm sure that he's wasting a lot of CO2 to do so.

If it's not a high light setup then there's really no need to have so much CO2, and you can get away with whatever filtration you want.



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Post InfoPosted 08-May-2006 23:27Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks Matty for all these details

I am not surprised that you even cofused yourself on that one . Basically, I am not into the sump idea anyway. There are too many reasons (even besides the CO2 issue) that stop me from seriously considering such a filter, for example maintenance, cost, water evaporation, and space.

Being in the process of setting up yet another tank I would like to not overcomplicate this one anymore. Maybe for the time being I can just wing it and later throw about 20 of the Espei into the new 40G (and start the same problems there, ).

Thanks again,

Ingo


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Matty,

Makes alot of sense. I never said it was going to be efficient, but it sounds like it would supply the tank with enough co2.

LF,
If you don't want a sump I would go with this. I think it's the largest canister on the market.

http://www.hagen.com/usa/aquatic/product.cfm?CAT=1&SUBCAT=107&PROD_ID=01002180020101

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Post InfoPosted 09-May-2006 23:14Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks tetratech for the link, that sure is some monser filter, for up to 400G tanks. I couldn't find it at Big Al's and I wonder how much it costs (and quality).

Anyway, I think I first will try to see if I can reduce my stocking somewhat. Maybe that is all that is needed.

Hey tetratech - I bumped into somebody who says that the Eco in her tank caused the ph and hardness to climb (from ph 7 to 8), did this happen to you as well?

Thanks again,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 09-May-2006 23:37Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Been reading

Brain hurts

pretty fish

not dead plants (see my tank)

all Good LF!

love GFG

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GFG

Thanks for the compliment, and sorry about the brain hurting

Haven't seen you in a while, and where would I be able to read about your current tank issues.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 10-May-2006 14:00Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Hey tetratech - I bumped into somebody who says that the Eco in her tank caused the ph and hardness to climb (from ph 7 to 8), did this happen to you as well
?
I don't remember that happening, but then again I've been running co2 heavily so I probably wouldn't have noticed.

ph 7 to 8 sounds pretty drastic to me.


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Thanks tetratech,

In the meantime I read a few posts where people claim to have rather significant increases in their ph, but other posts completely dismiss this notion. I guess it is one of these things where opinions are wide spread.

I have a tank issue:

I notices what appears to be a much slower growth on the Star Grass. In addition, last night I noticed some leaves on new growth turning thin and melting. Now, I have read that this is caused by a sudden lack of Nitrate (On the APC site in the plant profile). I haven't measured my Nitrates, guess I will have to do that tonight. I would be really surprised to find my tank having low nitrates, although I haven't increased my dosage, but 1.5tsp every other day should be enough, I thought. Maybe the overall number of fast growers causes it to be sucked up much quicker.

Does anyone have any idea what else may cause this problem?

Thanks in advance,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 11-May-2006 13:32Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Sounds like no3 deficiency. If the light and co2 are up to speed I would dose even more especially if mass is increasing. I learned the hard way when that happened to my stargrass. The wildcard in my situation was that I was cutting the tops all the time, but in your case your replanting them. For the longest time I was dosing 1/2tsp no3 and when I felt the mass was really full I starting dosing 5/8 to 3/4 tsp.

I believe Amano increases dosing as plant mass increases.




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Post InfoPosted 11-May-2006 13:56Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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I believe Amano increases dosing as plant mass increases.


Only really makes sense. I am wondering if that is why I am starting to get some green spot.

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Post InfoPosted 11-May-2006 15:08Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks you two,

I will make sure to measure tonight. It would really surprise me though.

What I think I may find is an unproportionally high amount of Phosphate as I have been doing it now for a few weeks in the recommended dosage (1/8tsp 3 x per week). Last time I did this I ended up with 10ppm.

So, maybe it is more of a proportion issue than a plain lack of Nitrate.

Will keep you posted,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 11-May-2006 18:02Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Well,

Just measured the N and P:

- solid red in the N, meaning 40++ppm
- dark blue in the P, meaning way more than 5ppm

Now, as I said earlier I expected the P to be rather high, but the N is a big surprise.

Of course I have no idea what to make of this, as usual.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 12-May-2006 00:35Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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Of course I have no idea what to make of this, as usual.


LF,
You are not the only one. I tested my N today too and it was in the same ball park as you with 40ppm. I am not even sure I want to dose tomorrow being the tank is going to be taken down in on Monday.

I think we need Ben to let us know whats up. Chances are he will yell at us first for using test kits!

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Post InfoPosted 12-May-2006 00:43Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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I went and took a comparison shot of the tank to actually see if there is any growth. And I do have growth, but there are these two Star Grass tops melting. I also see some black tips on them which supposedly is from a lack of micros.

Here is a shot with Today at the bottom and 5 days ago:

Attached Image:

Comparison



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Post InfoPosted 12-May-2006 01:18Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by tetratech
LF,

Did you dose macros today? If yes, your probably looking at the peak of buildup for NO3 as well as the test kit being off by as much as 20ppm. I've contacted several attorneys about class action lawsuits against test kit providers.

So your no3 could be averaging 20ppm and your po4 2 or 3.
The idea behind EI is that it doesn't stay high for long, because the whole system get's flushed anyway every week.

From the pic your stargrass looks O.K. Maybe a closeup would be more revealing.



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Post InfoPosted 12-May-2006 02:51Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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EditedEdited by bensaf
The high numbers in and of themselves are not an issue. They'll be reduced when you do water change anyway.

The real question is why are they that high ?

Sounds like something else is limiting the uptake of N and P. Don't forget if one thing is limiting then uptake of all others stop until the limiting nutrient becomes available again.

Do the usual, check Co2, up the micros in case one of them is short. Especially check GH. GH is one that's often overlooked when it comes to plants and is very vital. Really needs more attention then it gets sometimes. Calcium and Magnesium are vital. Especially Mg , which can cause some funny problems.

It can tricky sometimes. A plant can show a symptom of a lack of a nutrient, even though you know you have plenty of that nutrient there. I.e the Stargrass showing like N dificient, this usually indicates that something else is lacking and preventing the plant from utilising the available nutrient.

Usually something like a Mg deficiency will appear as something completely different and send you off on wild goose chases.

A close up of the affected Stargass would help a lot.


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Post InfoPosted 12-May-2006 04:09Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks for the input,

Sorry, a close-up will have to wait until tonight as all is dark now in the tank (4:30 AM).

I had a feeling about having another nutrient being a limiting factor (I guess I am beginning to understand) and even without your advice I added 50ml of TMG instead of 40ml (yesterday it was micro day, so macros have last been added the day before).

Over the last few weeks I also increased my weekly input of Equilibrium, from formerly 1/2tsp to almost 2tsp. I haven't measured the GH though ever since doing this.

Neither have I measured KH or CO2, I guess KH is around 4, but I will measure tonight.

Thanks for the input and thoughts,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 12-May-2006 10:41Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Well guys,

On with the Star Grass Saga:

The photo below shows one of the two effected stems as good as possible. The red arrow points to the yellowing (dying) stem, the yellow arrow shows you how thin the leaves are.

I also measured some values:

It appears as if my KH is almost 5 (upped the baking soda dosage over a few weeks)
Also, my GH seems to be close the 5, that is at least when the test liquid turned from a pale yellow to a pale green.

Here is the shocker, my ph seems to be 7, giving me a CO2 of 15ppm. I have cleaned the diffuser for the last time almost 3 weeks ago (tomorrow), can that be it? The bubble count appears to be the same as always, now I went ahead and cranked it up a notch.

Attached Image:

Star Grass



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Post InfoPosted 12-May-2006 23:37Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by tetratech
Here is the shocker, my ph seems to be 7, giving me a CO2 of 15ppm


That would explain uptake limitation, but I defer to my master

EDIT: LF There is a good discussion on APC concerning the trend toward higher C02. There are many advanced aquarist discussing the whole fishload thing as well. I must admit I never saw this tread until now, but I feel like it supports my argument about fishload and algae, especially when there is abundant light.

co2.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/general-aquarium-plants-discussions/16678-why-trend-towards-more-more-co2.html

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Post InfoPosted 13-May-2006 00:33Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks tetratech for the link

I didn't see it until now as I assumed there were no new entries in my thread for the last almost 2 days and as such didn't open it. I will read up on the link content after I do my weekly thing (as I have done something towards higher CO2).

Weekly Tank Update - Week 33

The last week had no major events, my focus was mainly on the order of items for the soon-to-be-coming 40G tank. Only on the side did I notice that 2 stems of the Star Grass were withering away and when I finally dug out the test kit I noticed a very low CO2 concentration, and going with it a high level of nutrients.

There are multiple options of why that would be, one of which is that the diffuser - which hadn't been cleaned in almost 3 weeks and also loses a lot of bubbles that bypass the spray bar and reach the surface straigh up - is not working as expected. I decided to tackle this as the cause and the following pictures will show my changes.

Another thing that needed change was the right tank side where the Hygro angustifolia started to shade all smaller plants in the foreground and the heavily water rooted Alternanthera in the background (which had been trimmed a few times before).

Here is the tank last weekend:

Attached Image:

Week 32



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Post InfoPosted 14-May-2006 12:18Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Now here is a picture of the tank from yesterday before I made any changes. One observation I thought I made during the week was a reduction in growth, but when comparing the shot from last week to this one it seems that growth is actually pretty good. The Star Grass and the Hygro both have gained a few inches, and so did the Ludwigia on the left:

Attached Image:

Tank before Changes - This Weekend



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Post InfoPosted 14-May-2006 12:20Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Here is the tank now after my changes. I completely removed the Alternanthera (2 stems) from the right way back, you couldn't see it there anymore anyway. I cut off a few shoots from that root mess and planted them all over the tank so they can grow out in better light. Next, I moved the Hygro in the back on the right, I had to redo it once as the left stem cramped the right stem too much.

I separated them with a Helferi that I placed between them. Furthermore, I removed the Pearl Grass from the front right and gave it a good trimming (bottoms cut away) and replanted them in that spot.

Given that this process for sure stirred up some gunk I decided not to further upset the tank and left all other plants alone, hoping the Star Grass can handle one more week before it needs trimming.

Attached Image:

Week 33 - Yesterday



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Post InfoPosted 14-May-2006 12:26