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  L# LITTLE_FISH 125G Log
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SubscribeLITTLE_FISH 125G Log
bensaf
 
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Sounds like we got a Mexican standoff.

Neither will pull out the trimming scissors 'til the other makes the first move

Gunfight at the F.P. Coral. I can just see the two facing off in the middle of a dusty street, hands poised over their holsters containing their pruning scissors.A smoking Marlboro hanging from Ingo's lips, with that black hat you'd never know he was bald

Want to watch that tetra guy though, I hear he keeps a hidden forceps strapped to his ankle

By the time this is finished their Stargrass will have grown out of the tank and taken up residence on the couch

Now who's gonna blink first............?????????


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Bensaf,
I'm glad you putting your 142 IQ to good use

I ain't cutting mine until it flowers like Ingo's Ludwigia Maybe if I raise mine out of the water with the BBQ stick for support it will.

It's truly amazing how perceptive you are through this medium. Your midi-chlorians must be off the scale

My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Tainted Glory
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Are you using treated tap water or RO/DI water?
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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I'm glad you putting your 142 IQ to good use

Just reducing myself to level of those around, when in Rome ......

It's truly amazing how perceptive you are through this medium.

Maybe.It doesn't make much to figure you for a bit of a movie buff. Quotes from Jurassic Park, midi-chlorians which I assume to be a reference to Star Wars. Only the folks that have a real love of movies remember this stuff.
I studied psychology for a while. The human mind and it's workings fascinates me. And I'm assuming your not being sarcastic. Hard to tell, you hold your cards closer to your chest then most.

Your midi-chlorians must be off the scale

Darn right And I've got a cute butt too !


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
DragonFish
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"Darn right And I've got a cute butt too !"

Now he's George Michaels. It's gettin' gay now.
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Well, although tetratech might have a hidden forceps at his ankle, what he does know is that I am wearing a pinch-safe vest made out of small TMG bottles.

Man, I leave you guys alone for one evening and you turned this into a duel.

Tainted Glory – I am using tab water, treated with Prime, why?

DragonFish – I don’t get it.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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And I'm assuming your not being sarcastic
Well for the midi-chlorians statement, maybe

Darn right And I've got a cute butt too
I must admit, I'm trying to get a visual, but my IQ isn't as high as yours.

Tainted Glory,
Are you referring to Stargrass Wars and the water we use.

Dragonfish,
Your scaring me!




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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Tainted Glory
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I was referring to water. The reason is, I'm new to planted tanks and am going to go full blown in the next few days and want to iron out the details before that happens.
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Mike,

If the tab water is not poisenous, and matches the general requirements of the tank as well, then I personally don't see a reason why I would want to use RO water. Imagine all the goodies you get in the water for free that you would have to add to RO water.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Tainted Glory
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THanks Ingo. I'm definetly going to be asking you a lot of redundant questions, so bare with me! I hate to clutter your thread-this is the last silly post-promise. What substrate do you recommend? I was thinking of using flourite or the like and creating a gravel area front and center. I'm going for something along the lines of an Amano tank in TFH a while back. Maybe you recall? It was the article about driftwood in the nature aquarium I believe?
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Mike,

You know, I am actually not qualified to recommend any substrate as I have only used one kind in my 3 tanks, Laterite in the bottom layer of gravel. It for sure would be worthwhile if you create a new thread and ask a broader audience about their expertise.

This question is actually pretty applicable to this tank though. I am occasionally wondering if I should have used another substrate or if I should try to change mine bit by bit. The one thing I don’t like is that is it is too light, but at the same time not bright enough to make an impression. The gravel was initially (in the bag and when placed in the tank) a deep river stone color, but now it is mostly just a drab brown. But will all my plants my gravel only plays a minor role, most of it is not visible anyway. The other thing that I don’t like too much about it is that it is not fine enough. It is just pea size gravel, but I think I would like it better if it would be smaller.

The one thing that doesn’t make a difference for me is the substrate’s ability to serve as a fertilizer. I am pretty happy with my plant growth and don’t see an advantage that I would gain by switching to Flourite or Eco-Complete.

Hope this helps,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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The one thing that doesn’t make a difference for me is the substrate’s ability to serve as a fertilizer
I would tend to agree with that. Carib-Sea the provider of Eco Complete has this statement on their website.

"Eco contains all the mineral nutrients needed for luxuriant aquatic plant growth without nuisance algae! Iron rich Eco-Complete™ eliminates the need for laterite.
Natural black substrate encourages the most vibrant coloration in fishes and reduces fish stress."


I find that statement to be quite a stretch.

My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Weekly Update – Week 17

Well, very little time has been spent with the tank during the last week, given that I worked 11 hours each day and 13 on Saturday. This also means that the water change, which usually is on a Saturday, was today (Sunday).

Besides replacing water, this weekend’s maintenance stood under the motto “Remove the Glosso”. Because I intend to do this in weekly steps, to avoid too much dirt in the water column at once, I started with the area in front of, and in between, Rock Valley.

It sure was a mess and loads of gunk needed to be vacuumed out from the cleared section. This was the first time I used my regular vacuum without a filter (pantyhose) over it as it would have clogged up in no time. I didn’t use the python though, instead I vacuumed the gunk into a bucked (2 x 5G), just in case I suck out one of my fish .

Next week an additional section will be cleared of the Glosso. I actually leave very small plants in there, in case I decide that growing a new carpet is worth the effort. Let me know if you think the tank looks better with or without the Glosso.

Here are some weekly shots to show you recent changes. Also, look at the Rotala Macandra on the left and right, and the Star Grass at the right, to see some nice progress.

The Tank 2 weeks ago:

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Last Weekend:

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Today, after the water change:

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Here is a close-up of Rock Valley with the clean area in front and in-between. You may notice the Uruguaensis Sword in front of the valley. I had to save it from the back of the tank where it didn’t get any light and didn’t show any growth in about 6 weeks (at least). Behind it one can see some green just at the valley entrance. This is some Hair Grass that managed to survive the Glosso onslaught; I guess this plant is tougher than I thought.

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Once again the Sword Uruguaensis, here you can see that it is in real bad shape. I know it cannot stay at this spot forever, but I couldn’t throw it out either.

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LITTLE_FISH
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Here is a close-up of the border between the cleaned area and the remaining thick Glosso carpet. One can clearly see the layers upon layers of Glosso that suffocate each other.

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LITTLE_FISH
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Here is one of the few pieces I left in the tank. It looked pretty healthy and maybe it will be the start of a new carpet.

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LITTLE_FISH
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Last but not least, a close-up of a new Narrow Leaf Ludwigia – Eh – Sagittaria blossom. It has an air bubble trapped in its center.

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
luvmykrib
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I like the open area, haven't seen your gravel in a very long time!
The glosso really did grow into a (shag) carpet but it probably made cleaning a b**ch, eh?
That sword doesn't look too bad where it is but it will most likely outgrow that spot in no time.
What are your plans for the newly uncovered gravel?

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
OldTimer
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Ingo

As always a nice looking tank. My only hopes is that my meager efforts will look half as nice on the new tank we've been discussing.

Jim



Water, taken in moderation, cannot hurt anybody. -- Mark Twain
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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First things first! The picture of the flower/air bubble is pretty darn sweet! I like it a lot.

The plant in the right front corner (Stargrass?). Is that a temp. home because it seems really out of place taking way from the flow of the tank. Its just way to tall.

Your plants are growing really really really well but there really really really needs to be something to break up the plants. Right now it seems like a jungle of plants and no true spot to focus on.

If you are going to leave the front open gravel I would say either do something with rock work like tetratech beach front or DW (sorry for bringing up the DW thing again). If you could find some darker plants like a wendtii crypt would help break things up a bit too.

Sorry to hear about all the hours you have been working. I hope it all pays off and you don't kill yourself in the process.


Post # 700 for me!!

Last edited by Wingsdlc at 22-Jan-2006 21:37

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
luvmykrib
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I agree with Wings about some bare rocks or driftwood. I know finding large attractive pieces is hard but for the edge of the bare area you wouldn't need really large pieces, just a few medium sized pieces carefully placed to look like the naturally drifted there. A few strategicly placed darker crypts would also draw attention to them and break up all the green. Hope it makes sense, I wish I could get what's in my head out in type, but it just doesn't work. I just think the green is great but there's not enough contrast.
The stargrass is too tall for where it is. It may look better closer to the left side f the tank where there are taller plants. Not sure there though.

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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We seem to be doing the same things.

I too removed my Glosso at the weekend.

I had only put it in out of curiosity as I'd never tried. Now I know I can grow it. Mission accomplished.

Like yours it had overgrown itself multiple times and needed to be cleaned up. I had removed with the itention of trimming and replanting but once out I realised that the the Erect moss had filled in real nice, some hairgrass that had come in with the Glosso had managed to get nicely established and the sand looked nice, so all in all it looked much better without it.

Just goes to show, Glosso is one of those plants that gets lots of ooh's and ah's and a lot of people aspire too, but in the end can be a bigger PITA then it's worth.

Like you I did keep some way off to one side. Just want to keep some going in case I decide to use in another tank. I really like it, but it's just not suitable for the current layout on this tank.

About the Uruquayensis, it will grow up nicely but slowly. I have one that I bought about the same size as yours , it took 4 or 5 months to start putting out leaves of a decent size (about 12". Once it starts the new leaves will continue to increase in size. You did right to move it. I mentioned to you before it's always going to be more of a mid ground plant rather then a background one.

Last edited by bensaf at 22-Jan-2006 21:21


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks everybody for the comments .

Yeah, the Star Grass was a small plantling that I added to the tank when I redid my 20G QT. I was curious as to what it may become (now I know) and later on served as a pawn in the Starr Grass Wars II . It is all the way to the top now and soon I will have to do something about it, just don’t know what yet.

Open gravel or not, I don’t know yet. I think I (we) will get a better idea once all the Glosso is removed, so in maybe 1 to 2 weeks.

The Uruguaensis did already put out quite a few new leaves and even gained a little height, but it became way too shaded in the jungle. There is still a Red Melon Sword in the left back (was a freebee) and it is hanging in. I don’t know if I want that one in the first place, but the cheap guy I am I couldn’t simply neglect the free plant . So overall I have 3 kinds of Swords (besides the grassy ones) in the tank that I am not sure of, as there is also the Red Rubin on the right. The problem I have with all of them is that they will take up quite some real estate on the gravel bed, meaning no other plant can be located very close to it.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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I too removed my Glosso at the weekend.
Yeah, but I'm the only one with a BLACK Sand Hawaiian, beach front.

I was curious as to what it may become (now I know) and later on served as a pawn in the Starr Grass Wars II
That poor plant, used as a pawn in your dirtly little war. Putting a plant out of place to compete. Isn't that against the AGA code of ethics.




Last edited by tetratech at 23-Jan-2006 04:41

My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
DaMossMan
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Your tank pics are awesome

I'm trying Marsilea Quadrafolia (poor man's glosso). Fitting ! LOL..

Re: Your E. Ura. sword. My E bleheris died in a darker area of the tank, meanwhile my Ozelot Red in a better lit area is doing great so I hear you on plant positioning.

Regards,
DaMossMan

The Amazon Nut...
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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tetratech -

Well, my beachfront is more like the Long Island North Shore, but without all the garbage .
And what would have happened to your scape if I wouldn’t have used the Star Grass pawn to tickle you a little .

DaFishMan – Oih – DaMossMan – Nice name change

I will have to look up this plant, Marsilea Quadrafolia. And thanks for the compliments on the pictures .

Ingo

EDIT: Yeah, just remembered this plant - Four Leaf Clover. Doesn't that grow rather tall, like 2 inches or so?

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 23-Jan-2006 07:40


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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I am not sure on the hight but I was looking into that plant too at one time. I am sure much of what it will turn into depends on your lighting.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
DaMossMan
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I've just acquired it recently, 3/4 inch height at the moment.

It may be called Marsilea Quadr-I-folia, instead of -A-.
A link for you

[link=http://www.floridadriftwood.com/aquariumplants_marsilea_quadrifolia.html]http://www.floridadriftwood.com/aquariumplants_marsilea_quadrifolia.html" style="COLOR: #FFFFFF[/link]

SOMEONE kept hinting at a name change, so here I be

The Amazon Nut...
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Question: How do you know you are an Aquarium Nerd?

Answer: When your co-worker brings you this t-shirt from his vacation trip

Ingo

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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And to proof it, here is yet another shot of the flowering Narrow Leaf Sagittaria, this time with a beautiful air bubble in it.



Ingo

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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I like the first picture of the flower much better.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Wings,

You think so? I would have thought that the fact one can really see the air bubble would make the latter the prettier picture.

But I guess the fact that other parts of the tank are visible in the first picture make it more appealing (in this instance, at least).

Thanks,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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I think the first picture is sharper than the second one. I find the blurry plants up close distracting and I really don't thing its as in focus as the first. Just me though.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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OK Wings,

Then I will add the first picture to "My Flower Pictures" thread in the Photo Booth forum

Will have to wait until tonight though.

Thanks,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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Oh man... by no means should you be going off of just me....haha

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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When your co-worker brings you this t-shirt from his vacation trip
I think I have you beat on the t-shirt geekness thing.

Remember this pic, my son made me a t-shirt for the holidays. Now I have to wear it somewhere



tetratech attached this image:


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Tetra

Next time you get called for jury duty you know what to wear. C'mon, how awesome would that be?


LF, I wouldn't worry so much about the pictures as i would worry about that BBA growing on your sag. leaf in the background...





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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Next time you get called for jury duty you know what to wear.
Nowher That is really funny and it would be awesome if I had the guts to do it. I would have to go drinking with Bensaf first.

LF, I wouldn't worry so much about the pictures as i would worry about that BBA growing on your sag. leaf in the background


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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... Aaaaanyway, LF, I was cruising ebay and I saw this, another DW piece, possibly suited to cutting. It's pretty large.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Large-Driftwood-Spider-Aquarium-Reptile-FREE-SHIPPING_W0QQitemZ7739817294QQcategoryZ66790QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


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]:|]:|]:|

Having fun here?

If there is any BBA then it is so minor that I don't worry about it at all (at least until you brought it up).

Thanks for that,




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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Having fun here?
I would have to say YES!!!!

Well if it makes you feel better I have some BBA too. I stopped my excel treatment and it looks like it's starting to regroup. I think my diandra melted from the excel it's about gone.

Anyway I don't have time or the intent on changing all my parameters to suit one plant. Everything else is doing great.

I guess I'll have to raise my co2 to 100 to get rid of the BBA



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NowherMan6
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Having fun here?


Absolutely!



And yes, I have some BBA too, on the older leaves of my tenellus. And some hair algae on some rotala and luwigia Dangit, where's that Excel...


I hear ya on the CO2, tetra. That's not a bad idea. Anyone want to buy 15 harley rasboras and a few yo-yo loaches?


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Like NowherMan6 would say:

Aaaaanyway,



This is not a Sag leaf but a very old and no longer growing Crypt Retrospiralis leaf. And just another point to proof that slow or non growing leaves are more e to algae.



Ingo

EDIT: As a side note, have you seen my Avg Posts/Day?

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 24-Jan-2006 13:30


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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10.0 post per day
LF, your an animal

At that rate you'll pass me on Sunday, just in time for your weekly update.

Last edited by tetratech at 24-Jan-2006 13:42

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How do you find out your average postings? Do you have to be a super member??

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Wingdsc,

No, just go to profile in any of your posts and there's a line that says "avg post/day"



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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Well,

The yesterday was not an easy day for me.

Most of all I was worried that my thread wouldn't make it into the new design.

But also I showed clear signs of withdrawal.

I missed you all,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 12:30Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Oddly enough though there is a page 48 in this thread while all new entries are still written to page 47.

And all new entries seem to be dated as Jan 4th.

I guess we will see if we ever catch up with this extra page.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 12:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Things are just a little bit wild here now. It is crazy how much time I spend here and when I can't I go a little nuts.... I feel your pain LF!

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 13:56Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Hey LF and Wings,

I'm there with ya too.

The funny thing is, when I was at work and I tried going to FP, I got an IE message saying I was forbidden to view that page, and I was scared out of my mind that my firm saw I was going on this website so often they blocked me from using it

But anyway... brrr, is it just me or is the new format a little cold?


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 14:16Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks Guys,

I guess we will see when we catch up with that extra page that follows this one

I think it will be a while until I have gotten used to the new interface, but it seems to have some cool features, like this one: MTS

just move the mouse over the letters and you will see.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 15:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Most of all I was worried that my thread wouldn't make it into the new design.


Actually we (and I'm not saying who "we"is) thought your log had broken FP. Also had a giggle at the thought of you going cold turkey without you 10 posts a day.

Have to agree with nowhere, while I love the new features, I do find the color scheme a bit Very chilly. I'm sure we'll get used to it in time.


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 15:49Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Ok Bensaf,

Put the cards on the table - Who are the "we"



This one day of silence cost me my 10ppd and I will have to work hard to get back to it

Ingo

HA - I finally caught up with that extra page


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 15:52Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Put the cards on the table
Are you implying something - HOC

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 16:07Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Who is behind the Plant-Nerd Conspiracy?

On the tank front - I have no news.

The Apon has put up another flower, looking very nice but I don't want to bother you with yet another flower picture (of the same kind).

The Pearls, lost their shyness and, unlike in the 20G QT, the male and female hang out and patrol the tank together.

The Rainbows in the QT are doing fine too, although the one with the missing fin part doesn't seem to grow it back. Somebody in the LFS or in his other home must have bitten a big chunk out of the fish. He is fine though.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 16:27Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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LF,
I was in a LFS that I don't frequent that often. It's run by an old-timer who has been in the business over 35 years. He isn't much for presentation, but he does get alot of fish. It was rainbow city, he had at least 10 species of rainbow fish.

He had yours (praecox), Red Iranians and big Boeseman. He's very pricy. The praecox, were $13.99 and the big Boeseman $39.99.

What did I walk out with you ask? Half a dosen cardinals of course!


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 17:11Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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LF,

Have the pearls had an effect on the espei breeding? or should i say, the ability of the fry to survive... i don't think they alone could get them to stop breeding


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 17:29Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks for the info tetratech - yeah, I paid $12 for the juvenile Rainbows, adults in my LFS cost $20

NowherMan6 - I have no idea if the Pearls have an influence on the Espei breeding success. Overall it looks like I have less very young Espei, or I simply can't find them in the Jungle. This could be based on the fact that I have loads of fish now that would by chance come across a baby and well, eat it.

I have no chance of counting how many Espei are in there now, probably way too many.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 17:47Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I still can't get over how much you guys are paying for Rainbows. Dwarf Blue's at my store are normaly 4 for $10 and Boesemani for 14 or 11 depeding on how big they are. Most of the time these aren't really small fish.

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[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 22:52Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Wingdsc,
What state do you live in? Things are pretty expensive in NY and NJ. Actually the prices of fish very greatly from LFS to LFS in my area anyway. I could pay $1.25 for a cardinal or $2.99. Bolivians $5 to $12. There is a store on the east end of L.I. that is really cheap. I know I've seen Discus there for $20.

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Post InfoPosted 27-Jan-2006 00:19Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Quick Question Guys (before I go out to dinner):

Have you ever seen this specific piece?



Attached Image:

The Wood



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Post InfoPosted 27-Jan-2006 00:46Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Looks familiar...


Sly as a fox you are, LF. Glad you got it, it was too good to pass up.

Now, when you arrange that in your tank, enter the tank in the next AGA aquascaping contest and win... whatever it is you win with first place... I expect ten percent of the winnings...


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Post InfoPosted 27-Jan-2006 01:49Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks NowherMan6,

Now you know why I didn't react at all when you presented the next one you found.

Actually, a small piece on the top right corner broke off and I stuck it on for the picture. Nothing too bad though.

So, now that I have it, what am I going to do with it? How do I clean it (do I have to? ), do I have to make it water-logged before I put it in the tank? What else is there to look out for.

BTW, dimesions in the displayed position are roughly 38" long, 18" heigh, and 22" wide. So in this configuration it wouldn't even fit in. I will take a few more shots so you can see it in different positions.

Thanks NowherMan6 - I challenged you to find me a nice piece and it took you all of 10 minutes to do so

Ingo

PS: BTW, I hope they (aka Adam) fix the problem with the page count. After I caught up with this page I now have another one following this one. And even worse, I cannot access any page that is marked with the dots at the top and bottom of any current page, so right now only 1-5 and 44 and up is accessible. I guess that is a problem in all threads with ... page counts. Darn!


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Post InfoPosted 27-Jan-2006 02:26Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by tetratech


What can I say LF, "Your an animal"

Seriously, that is a great piece and it holds many possibilites. Have fun with it.



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Post InfoPosted 27-Jan-2006 02:30Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Ok Guys,

Here are a few more shots of the wood.

Please let me know which position you think looks the best.
Also, I think Nowherman6 mentioned cutting some pieces off and place in the right side of the tank (and tetratech agreed) - what pieces would that be (please)?

The preivously posted on shall be called No1, all following will be numbered accordingly. Simply refer to the number when referencing a preference

Ingo

Attached Image:

No 2



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Next

Attached Image:

No 3



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Post InfoPosted 27-Jan-2006 03:31Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Next

Attached Image:

No 4



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Post InfoPosted 27-Jan-2006 03:31Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Next

Attached Image:

No 5



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Post InfoPosted 27-Jan-2006 03:32Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
LAST

Actually, this was the same angle than No 2, sorry about that


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LF,
Nice chunk of wood. I like it alot. Does your wife know how much you spent on it? Or doesn't she seem to care anymore. Better spent on wood than hanging out in the pubs with Bensaf.

I vote for Number three for your tank. If it was a non planted tank I think #4 would be cool but to work with plants hanging on and around #3 is where its at. In my personal veiw of things.

tetratech,
I live in MI.

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[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 27-Jan-2006 05:32Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Agree, No. 3 looks the best, though they all look really awesome if you ask me

As for washing it, maybe fill up the bath tub with water and add some bleach. Scrub it, then drain the tub, rinse it out, then fill it with clean water and a boat load of Prime and soak the wood over night in it. That should get any nasties out of it. Just soak it real good afterwards. You'll also be able to tell if it sinks on its own. It looks heavy enough, but you never know. If it won't stay down in the tank you may need to break out the power drill and attach a slate base to it - which should be pretty simple.

As for cutting it, without being able to see it in 3D its hard to tell, but In view three I can see cutting along the red line as in the pic below. That'll give you one big branchy piece and one smaller branchy piece - or at least it looks like it would from the angle of the pic.




Attached Image:



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Post InfoPosted 27-Jan-2006 05:47Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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At last some wood.

No 2 or No.3 looks good. Just make sure the branchy bits are pointing upwards and outwards. Then it's just a case of do you want them to point towards the left or the right.

Be interesting to see how you make this work.




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Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 27-Jan-2006 10:37Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks everybody for the suggestions

Now I guess the real work will begin, as I already see some problems, grrrr.

For example:

The position of No 2 creates a total heigth (even after separating the suggested section) of 22", too heigh for the tank.

Other layouts create a width of over 18" (up to 22) and the tank is only 18" wide.

When looking at some options to separate sections for a second group I also encouter the issue that the trunk area would look rather bold (compared to the nice skinny branched area) and unsightly.

Soo much work

Ingo


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As NowherMan6 said you always have the option of cutting and adding it to slate or if it sinks you can just cut. Just remember its easy to take things apart but putting them together isn't as easy most of the time. Good Luck!

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[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 27-Jan-2006 14:07Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks Wings,

I realize that the event of adding this (or any similar) piece of wood is the single most complex task this tank has seen so far. Even the initial planting is easy compared to the tasks at hand.

I am getting more than just a little scared when thinking about the process:

- Make sure wood is cut to fit nicely into the tank
- Make sure position is eye-pleasing
- Make sure wood stays down
- Redo the entire (yes, all of them) plant scape by removing pretty much all plants and putting them in new spots (to accomodate the wood)
- Decide on what to do with the rocks, in particular Rock Valley
- Do this all while maybe 100 fish are in the tank
- Explain to the wife why you need the bath tub for at least for a day
- Explain to the wife why you have to spend another 12 hours on a weekend for tank maintenance

I got my work cut out and my brain is working overtime (so far with no success ).

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 27-Jan-2006 15:21Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Hopefully you won't have to take all the plants out.

Definnately cut it up into more manageable pieces.

Good luck explaining the chainsaw to the wife


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Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 27-Jan-2006 15:48Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks Bensaf,

I can't have a chainsaw, I would be too afraid to lose a leg in the process of cutting the wood .

Good thing I am currently still too busy to complete the Glosso cleanup. The wood will have to wait a week or two anyways. Maybe in that time the situation will become a little clearer.

Thanks again,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 27-Jan-2006 15:57Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Well,

I responded but the post created an error on the site (I swear that my writing wasn't all that bad).

So again,

I don't think I can use a chainsaw as I am too afraid of cutting my leg off in the process.

Also, I am currently still working on the Glosso cleanup so the wood will have to wait a week or two anyway. This should give me some more time to think about possible layouts.

Thanks again,

Ingo


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EditedEdited by Wingsdlc
LF,

No use rushing things. The DW is going to take some time. I would first cut the sucker up into the chunks you want to use (think a lot, check 2,3,4,5,6 times then make your cuts.) its way easier to cut than put them back together. Then start preping the wood. The smaller chunks should make this easier. I wish you the best of luck.

Here is a tank that might give you some ideas.
http://tropicalfishchat.net/index.php?showtopic=1918
The top picture...


Chainsaws are a little scary at first but once you start to use them its like driving a car.

55G Planted tank thread
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[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 28-Jan-2006 05:06Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Wings,

Chainsaws are a little scary at first but once you start to use them its like driving a car.


If that is true then I for sure will lose a leg as I crashed my first car within 2 weeks after getting a license

Nice tank link, I see the similarity in wood, but that's about it. The one pictured does not have any focus, sticks coming out all over the place.

Good advice on taking it easy, Wings. I will do that, no need to rush anyway.

Thanks again,

Ingo


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LF,

You best just draw the lines where you want it cut and find a modern day Paul Bunyan to do the cutting for you. No use loosing a leg man.

It was just some ideas. On that site he has some more picture of the tank that are better than that one but I don't feel like looking them up.

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tetratech
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LF,
You could also use a sawsall. A little less intimidating than a chain saw. I use a sawsall to cut my main piece in half.

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Sawsall's Rock! You can do so much with them!

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Weekly Updates - Week 18

Well, this week was marked yet again by not paying too much attention to the tank. Although work has slowed down a little (finally), I decided to spend my time with the family as they haven’t seen too much of me since this year started.

The only think worthwhile mentioning was the arrival of my driftwood, now I will just have to find out what to do with it. One thing is for sure, when I add it to the tank it will require another major replant as there is no space left in the jungle.

The water change this weekend was also used to finish the Glosso cleanup, no there is pretty much none left in the tank. It is hard to believe how much gunk was collected wherever the Glosso has been. I also had to move a few plants for height reasons.

The weekly pictures are only from the last 3 weeks to show the cleanup in succession, then there will be a few close-ups.

This was the tank 2 weeks ago before the cleanup started:


Attached Image:

2 Weeks Ago



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And this was last week with the area around Rock Valley already cleaned:

Attached Image:

Last Week



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And this is today, all Glosso is gone. You also see the new plants (actually not new, but replanted) on the back left and right front:

Attached Image:

Today



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Here is a close-up of the new Rotala Macandra group in the right front, created with the some of the stems that used to be on the left and a few cuttings from the main group:

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Rotala Macandra



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And here is a Green Wendtii, I haven’t seen that plant in a while as the Glosso was all over it:

Attached Image:

Green Wendtii



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Another Green Wendtii, I am amazed that it is still there as it had a hard time pushing leaves through the layers and layers of Glosso:

Attached Image:

Green Wendtii



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Last but not least, and in order to entertain tetratech, here is a close-up of the replanted Star Grass. It got too tall in the front corner and is now helping on the left to make sure that the tank looks just like a jungle:

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Star Grass



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EditedEdited by bcwcat22
The tank is amazing littlefish, I kinda liked the glosso though I see why you took it out.

love the new smilies

"A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man" Simpsons
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Thanks bcwcat22,

Yeah - I liked the Glosso as well, believe me

Until it started to rot underneath. It was my fault, I should have tried to trim it earlier. There is a little left in the tank and who knows, maybe some day I will have another carpet.

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Great move taking the star grass out of the front, it looked out of place there. It fits in much better completing the jungle on the left side The macandra looks much better in its place, and hopefully you can keep it low.


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I actually like the gravel you can see in the front of your tank. Adding in the DW will really take your tank to a new level.

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Thanks guys

The spot for the Star Grass is only temporary as well. As are most other plant locations rigth now. Once the wood is added the tank will need a complete makeover as I doubt that any in it's current spot will compliment the new layout. This spot was selected so I can get a feeling of how it would look with the existing plants when grouped.

Do you have any thoughts on the rocks that I have in there? Somehow I think that driftwood would profit more from smaller (than Rock Valley) and boulder shaped rocks.

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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Warning:

If you are not interested in my hassle with driftwood, skip the next at least 8 posts, otherwise read on


Well,

I was looking at the wood now for 3 days straight and still couldn't come up with the perfect solution. I decided it is time to take at least some action, otherwise it would sit there forever and never end up in my tank. So, I cut it up .

I decided that the main stem takes up way too much real estate for my plant mass. This basically left me with two useful branches whereby one of them could be divided into two as well (but I haven't done that). Now that I have these two pieces I am not any closer on knowing what to do with them - I am a driftwood failure. Maybe you guys can help me out, as I don't know what to do .

Let me show you some pictures of them. I added measurements below each picture, they are in inches and ordered by length x width x height for the position in which the wood is displayed. Keep in mind that my tank is 72" x 17.5" by 17.5" (from the top of the gravel in the front of the tank to the bottom of the top black rim).

Attached Image:

Main Branch, 19 x 16 x 20



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Next

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Extra Branch, 25 x 7 x 15



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Setup 1

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Configuration No1, 44 x 16 x 15



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Setup 2

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Configuration No2, 43 x 17 x 18.5



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Setup 3

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Configuration No3, 42 x 16 x 16



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Setup 4

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Configuration No4, 44 x 17 x 16



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Setup 5

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Configuration No5, 37 x 16 x 16.5



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Last, Setup 6

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Configuration No6, 45 x 17 x 16.5



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Well,

I am soaking it now in the tub and as expected it doesn't sink. We will see how long it takes until it stays under by itself. The big piece is still too big to be submersed completely and I let the skinny branches stick out.

Ingo

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Wood on a Dive



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Maybe you have this going on but I would put the biggest parts of the drift wood in the back of the tank and have the branches sticking out as much as posible to the front of the tank. It is just kind of hard to picture everything through pictures. (if that made any sence)



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Post InfoPosted 30-Jan-2006 02:57Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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And so it begins...

I'm partial to either 5 or 6.

I had a feeling it wouldn't sink on its own, to keep it down you may need to work creatively with some rocks. Since a lot of the wood will be covered in plants you can probably get away with keeping a rock sitting on top of the base of each piece. It'll also help if you bury each one an inch or so down in the substrate. The brancy parts of it will make the effect, not so much the bases, so it's OK to have a big rock sitting on each one. Heck, you can even work those rocks into the new 'scape. The important thing right now is to clean that sucker with some bleach solution.


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Right one with #5 I didn't see it that way before but if you turn them so the branches are coming at you that would be cool. At least that's how I see it.

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Post InfoPosted 30-Jan-2006 03:52Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Can't say I really like any of the configurations

Not keen on the way they meet like a bridge. I prefer wood to be poking at at angles.

You can use rocks to hold it down or even as support for the wood to lean on to create different angles for the branches.

You really won't get a feel for it until you try playing around with it in the tank. The planting will radically alter the shape of the wood.




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Thanks guys for trying ,

I can only imagine how hard it must be to judge the layout from pictures only; I don't even know how to position it when I hold it in my hands. Here are some more thoughts, randomly I may add:

- Wings, I can't have the braches coming forward, the wood is too long for this
- Yeah, I can see that I will have to use the rocks to hold it down, another design issue to consider (nice large rocks)
- the smaller element is probably too insignificant to make an impact by itself, that's why I tried to include it in the main group (rather than having it placed in the tank by itself with a gap to the big branch)
- One worry is that any layout which has the branches point straight up will disappear in the vegetation. I think that branch width and direction might be too similar to my plants and the whole thing wouldn't make a statement anymore
- Bensaf is right on with the statement that I will see how it looks once it is in the tank. And exactly that was the reason why I predicted that this will be the biggest overhaul ever, even bigger than the initial setup. I cannot have most plants still rooted and try to adjust the wood so it looks good with them, I think it should be the other way around, the plants should support the wood. As such most of the plants will have to be uprooted before placement can begin

Thanks again,

Ingo


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lovely pieces of wood.

i'd go for setup 5 it looks more like a root system and will look very natural once all the plants are growing around it - look great with 100 little fish swimming around the branches.

i've never seen a piece like that before the closest i came was the one i've got which i more like a stump towards yours.


are you intending to remove most of your plants and then start again after the wood has gone in?

good luck with reaquascapping?

what is it with us hobbists - we design a tank set it up think thats great - few months later we want to change it my girlfriend could never understand that?

where did you get the wood from - i looked through post - just to many pages now.

shekoi

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shekoi,

Thanks for the input and the compliments on the wood (from hell).

I got it of eBay, I challenged NowherMan6 to find me a nice piece (as they always teased me with my lack of hardscape) and 10 minutes later he linked me up with this one. What can I say, 5 days later and after paying a fortune, I owned that sucker .

Yes, I am afraid I will have to uproot most of my plants when adding the wood. I guess I will have to take a day off from work to do it, my wife will not give me another 12 hour break on a weekend any time soon.

Ingo


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Yes, I am afraid I will have to uproot most of my plants when adding the wood

Is there a doctor in the house?

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A doctor ? Why would I need a doctor ?

I am not planning on pulling a muscle when uprooting the plants.

Come to think of it though, I might bang my head against the wall a couple of times in frustration .

Ingo


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Come to think of it though, I might bang my head against the wall a couple of times in frustration


I can't help but feel at least partially responsible for the madness that's about to take place...


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NowherMan6,



Well, don't be surprised if I call you up in case of an emergency during the "change", given that you don't live too far away. And we might even be able to lure tetratech from his island for this operation (if he dares to enter Joisey land) .

No seriously, you did a great job pointing me to this nice piece. Even if all goes wrong, don't feel guilty at all, I am the one who want to put it in.

Ingo


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Oh my...
Those are lovely pieces of wood, and I actually think that layout 2 or 5 would allow you to keep the most jungle-look in the tank.
You are clearly already aware of the HUGE ordeal it's going to be to add the wood and arrange the plants around it, but I thought I would add a few ideas and considerations.

When I tried adding a big piece of wood that wouldn't sink, I really hated the idea of using rocks to keep it down. Now, I was starting from scratch, so I had an easier time of it, but I found that a good unobtrusive way of keeping floating wood down was to tie a long bit of fishing line to a heavy-duty suction cup, and stick the suction cup to the bottom of the tank, then tie the long ends of the fishing line around the wood in the position that I wanted it to be in. Now, since you already have your substrate down, I don't know if this is a feasable solution, but it worked really well for me.

I can't imagine that you do much gravel vacuming with all that plant mass in there, but I noticed that a whole lot of fish waste and uneaten food would collect right under the wood in the crevaces where wood meets gravel, and I think this contributed to some water quality issues with my cories that used that wood to hide under. Just something to bear in mind...

Your plants look so great. I hope you feel it's worth all the work you've been putting into this tank.

Hoping that there must be a word for everything I mean...
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
illustrae,

What a nice entry , thank you so much.

As you already stated, it is probably not a good idea to add a suction cup to this tank. I would have to dig through an average substrate height of about 6 inches, and in the process disturb all the Laterite down there. My tank has currently quite a large group of rocks (which one cannot see anymore) and maybe I can use them gracefully to hold the wood down. Right now it is still soaking in the tub and I will keep it in there as long as I can (means until the wife threatens with divorce ).

Good point with the waste that might collect where wood and gravel meet. I will have to keep that in mind. The problem here is that, at least at the current stage of the tank, I wouldn't even be able to see that area as it is planted so tightly.

And I do feel it is worth putting in all this work. Actually, although it is work, I see it as an exciting part of the hobby. I think I like the road to success as least as much as the success itself. And if all goes wrong, what is the worst that can happen? I start all over again and that would be exciting as well.

Thanks again,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 30-Jan-2006 21:29Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Actually, although it is work, I see it as an exciting part of the hobby. I think I like the road to success as least as much as the success itself. And if all goes wrong, what is the worst that can happen? I start all over again and that would be exciting as well.


That's the one thing all these logs have in common: We never get to the point where we say, OK, looks good, I'll leave it as it is. There's always a new plant to try, another rock or piece of DW to add, another species of fish to look into. It makes it fun and it's very much part of the hobby. And as you correctly pointed out, what's the worst that can happen if things go wrong? You start all over again relive the fun of setting up.


Well, that and divorce, for the married set...

(Hooray for being 23!)


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Should be on a T-Shirt


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Post InfoPosted 30-Jan-2006 22:54Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Good point with the waste that might collect where wood and gravel meet.

Peronally I've never had a problem and I have alot of dw and rock in my tank but then again LF you don't have a grounds crew. "One reaction leads to another"

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good luck with the operation - i understand the wife problems - i've already had to get rid of two tanks but least she let me have my new 72gallon shes always moaning when i spend hours on water changes and aquascapping - they just don't understand. you never know she might even help out

what about the fish? are you going to leave them in?

i always worry about my ottos when i reaquascape you never know where they all are.

can't wait see the pictures of you operation!

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you never know she might even help out


Yeah, I don't think so .

I will have to keep the fish in the tank, I don't have another container or whatever that could hold 100 fishies for hours (and keep them warm). Plus, it would take me about an hour just to catch them all .

The wood is, oh surprise, not sinking yet. The water in the tub was a light brown so quite a few tannis are leaking out. I gave it a scrub last night and refilled the tub with fresh water. I also observed some of the white fluffy stuff that grows on wood when freshly submersed.

The "Operation" will not start for a while, probably at least not until the weekend following the coming weekend. I am too busy at work right now.

In addition, I am considering of trading about 30 Espei at the LFS. I think I have too many now. They don't really school all that much anymore as no matter where they go some others will be there already . Maybe one of you would like to have them, I sell them for cheap (compared to the $4 they cost at my LFS), but no shipping, pickup only.

Ingo


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just writing a nice little reply and the computer crashes

can't remember what i was writing now.

What you going to exchange you fish for? or do you get credit of some sorts - at my LFS i get half the sale price of the fish - so in your case get about $60 not bad

i'm getting used to my camara now - hopfully i can train my fish to stand still long enough to get a good photo like yours.
i've posted some on my log
http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/threads/12949.4.htm?83#

Have any idea what the snail is? i've had him for years must have come in on a plants.

do you have any problems with snails in the 125G? i try and check all the plants no - but it is hard to do.

just remebered what i was writing not even that informative - when i was soaking my roots i noticed that there were slight little cracks and holes which were filled with air - so by moving the pieces around releasing the air - helpped it sink quicker.

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Wingsdlc
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When you are rinsing and such are you using hot water? This will help the wood open up and trap in water.

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NowherMan6
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Getting it to stay completely down with no help could take weeks, even months. A rock is the best bet at this point, and can be worked into the aquascape as well. Win-win situation.


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Thanks guys,

Yeah, I am refilling the tub with rather hot water in the hope that it will open the pores (just like people's skin).

NowherMan6 - it takes quite a big rock to keep the main piece from floating. Currently I use 2 to hold it down in the tub.

Shekoi - Yeah, I have snails in my 125G, none of which has been added intentionally. There are ramshorn, trumpet, and pond snails. When I do my weekly water change I pick them up when I get the chance, otherwise I leave them alone. I don't think there are too many yet. I think I would like to exchange the 30 Espei for some more Rainbows . It is nice that you get half the selling price, my main LFS is a little cheaper, they sell them for $4 and indicated (and not even that is for sure) that they would give me $1 for each. I might have to inquire at other LFSs and see what they would give me.

Ingo


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Dr. Bonke
 
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Ingo, at least you're getting something for your fish. None of the three LFS that I frequently visit give me anything for fish that I bring them. Last week I had to do a lot of fast talking for them to accept the three angels that I brought them. Getting 1$ a piece is pretty nice IMO.

Your wood will take a long time before it'll sink. Warm water won't make much of a difference I'm afraid, wood pores don't really work that way, they're fixed structures. The best way to do it fast would be to boil the wood. By boiling you make the air expand so much that it will force itself out of the wood, allowing water to enter and occupy those pockets. However, with a piece the size of what you're having there it may be rather difficult to find a big enough pan
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Thanks Dr. for the input,

Yeah, I sure would need some big kettle to boil that sucker .

But seriously, I actually heard that boiling wood is not a good idea. Supposedly it destroys the cell structure of the wood and the consequence would be a much faster disintegration in the tank.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 01-Feb-2006 16:21Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Dr. Bonke
 
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I suppose boiling wood can do a little bit of damage, but it won't be terribly much. We're talking about dead lignified cells that basically just consist of cell wall material, which is mostly cellulose and lignin. These polymers are very resistant to heat. I've always boiled pieces of bogwood that I've had in my tanks. Some of those I inherited from my grandfather, who had them in his tank for many years, and he had boiled them as well. I've never had a piece fall apart on me or rot. If it indeed does increase the speed of breakdown, then we're still talking about decades I think, longer than any setup of a tank will ever exist.
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LF,

If worse comes to worse I have something we can boil it in. You just have to take a trip to MI to do it. By the time you get back home it will be full of air again for sure!

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Wings,

Sounds like a plan

Let's try to make this the most expensive piece of driftwood (in $ per pound) ever to be added to a tank. Purchase cost plus a vacation in MI .

I haven't had too much time to check on the wood for 2 days now and when I looked at it last night I saw the the discoloration of the water is rather minimal. That gives me some hope that it has been in the water for a while in its past.

Ingo


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LF,

Umm yeah... just let me know and I will get the giant pot ready with some fire wood!

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Well, without many words,

I did it, for better or worse.

It took 7 hours , quite a few water changes, lots of fiddling with plants, and what not.

QUESTION: I have Narrow leaf Ludwigia, lots of dwarf sags / chain swords, more crypt retrospiralis, Xmas moss, red rubin sword, and a red melon sword still in the water buckets. SHOULD I ADD ANY OF THESE, AND WHERE? I will dispose of the around 10AM tomorrow morning, my time (US East).

Here are 8 pictures, not many words though, I will write more tomorrow. No1, tank before change:

Attached Image:

Before



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No2, Quite a few plants have been removed, the water quality is going downhill:

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First Round of Plant Removal



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No3, A lot of plants gone by now, I am worried how the fish will handle this soup:

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More Plants Gone



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No4, Only the Apons and Cyperus are left, a few vacuuming sessions later.

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Little Left



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No5, The wood has been added, took quite a while and many curses until it was in place:

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Introducing the Wood



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No6, Partial water change to up the water quality, filter was also rinsed (not too much though, bacteria - I know). The Apon had to go to, didn't like it anymore:

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Water Change



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No7, Tank is refilled, more rocks are added. Do you see all the Espei :

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Hardware in Place



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Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 06:31Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
No8, and last for now. The tank is fully planted, except if you have some info and then I could add it tomorrow. I am intending to try my luck with hair grass in the front again, but I will have to get it first. I will go to sleep now, let me know what you think (even if you don't like it )

Ingo

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All Done



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Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 06:33Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bcwcat22
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Wow, I love the new drift wood and rock formations. Keep us posted on the tank.

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Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 07:35Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Hey, looks awesome. Hope your fish enjoy the new scenery.

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Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 08:27Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
upikabu
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EditedEdited by upikabu
The driftwoods look great, Ingo. I prefer the new look, much cleaner. I think you need more red plants though - the macaranda look too prominent as the only red plants. Maybe put the ludwidgia (I assume those were the reddish plants in the middle in the "before" pic) on the back right side (behind the driftwood & anubias).

I can't remember what your red swords look like, but I would try putting one on the far left corner, in front of the lone rock (instead of the few grassy plants - cyperus?). Maybe plant the dwarf sags on the front right corner, in front of the rock?

Anyways, looking good!

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-P
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Dr. Bonke
 
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Hey Ingo, it sure is a lovely piece of wood, and I think you've found the best orientation for is as well. I love the way the roots are sticking upwards at odd angles, but why did you put it so right in the middle? It looks good, but in my opinion it would have looked even better if you had put it slightly off-center to the left. Now it forces your eyes to the center of the tank, and leaves the sides a little as an after thought. If you move it a bit to the left it will create a focal point on that side and leaves the right side of the tank open for other interesting stuff. Nice work in any case, in a couple of weeks it should be possible to remove that big rock, or alter its orientation a little
Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 10:12Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks everybody for the input

Paulus - Thanks for the drawings and your ideas. Here are the problems I have with the options you gave me:

- The red rubin is currently 3/4 of the tank height and takes up quite some ground real estate as well. I think it would be too big in the left front (twice as big as you were drawing it). The plants in front of that rock are sags.
- The Ludwigia could look nice there, but a) the tank is not deep enough for a group of plants behind the Anubias in the right back, b) the plants would get shaded by the Retrospiralis and slowly die off, and c) I thought I try an all green (besides a few wendtiis that one cannot see in the total shot) with one shockingly red area (silly me).
- The sags in my tank tend to grow rather big and would quickly make the rock (on the right) behind them meaningless and hidden.

I will take a closer look this morning and see what can be done.


Dr. - Grrr, you are right, the wood is in the middle. I didn't intend to make the branch group the center point of the layout, the group to its right is supposed to be the center. Ohlala, what to do? It is impossible for me to move it now, except if I am going to uproot quite a few plants again. Maybe I can wait until the wood stays down by itself and then take action, getting it in place was almost an act of violence .

The idea was that the pearl grass on the right of the wood would create a lower valley towards the Cyperus in the back. I guess by adding the Macandra to the left I managed to make this group almost meaningless, although I put a lot of detail in it (will show closeups later today - have to make the pictures first).

Maybe I go for tetratech's random chaos layout (not that he has that, but he mentioned Amano has something like that).

It never ends

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 14:21Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
SheKoi
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good job -hope you had fun

doesn't your tank make that bogwood look small? in the tub it looked huge now can hardly see it.

how long did it take you in total?

i'd let the plants you have in recover and spread out again before deciding what else to end - but do need something in the forground.

did you catch any of the espei to sell on?

are your ottos ok didn't throw any out by accident?

Karl.

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Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 14:30Profile Homepage MSN PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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The wood looks good. It is a little centered but if it's major work to move it I wouldn't bother.

The Cyperus is a beautiful plant I'd probably prefer it behind the rocks but again if it's a headache to move It loks good where it is.

The Macrandra does look out of place mainly because it's out on it own. If it had more green behind and beside it, that wouldn't be so noticeable. It may work better in the spot where the pearlgrass is , but then you'd have to keep it a bit lower so it doesn't block the view of the Cyperus.

Keep the Rubin. I'd but it at the far right beside between the Cyperus and the Retro and behind the big Anubias there. Alternately it you move the the R.Macrandra put the Rubin where that is now. It'll balance out the reds a bit.

You are going to need a big bold species of stem plant that will make a statement and anchor the scope. Ideally that will go at either the location where the MAcrandra is or the location where the cyperus is. Depend which way you want to go. I've mentioned a few species before - Aromatica, Ammania, Stellata Broadleaf, Ludwigia Cuba. Something nig and brassy that you can build around.

The front left needs Crypts preferably something like Red Wendtii. The color and leaf shape will balance out the grassy sags etc.

Did you chuck all the moss ? The wood could do with some aging.

That part where the big rock is hold ing down the wood - fill it and cover up the structure with Narrow Leaf Fern or Wendelov. Again the darker more horizontal look will offset the vertical grassy types. Alternately a big dark Anubias Coffeefolia.

It's on the way. A few small details needed. Need to make the forground more interesting . I'm sure I'll think of more later.



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Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 15:12Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Bensaf,

Thanks boss

- yup, moving the wood is a PITA. The wife had to close the door to the basement so the kids don't hear me cursing
- The Cyperus, after all this time that it is in the tank already, has just gotten established (takes a long time to do so, as you mentioned way back when I got it). So it has to stay
- Macandra in front of the Cyperus sounds like a plan, I will give it a go in 30 min (lights on for fishies)
- Red Rubin in the spot where the Macandra is now sounds good too, I will add some more green grasses (Retro, I guess) besides (behind) it as it is not big enough to fill the whole spot
- Bold Stems: I still have 3 of the crippled Althernanthera that I couldn't identify. They are currently in front of the Macandra and invisible as they blend right in. Maybe I can make them grow better, now that they actually get propper light
- The front left has a crypt wendtii, red . It just doesn't show in the picture as it is too small (maybe 10 leaves) because it had been covered by dwarf sags / chain swords in the past (and Glosso).
- Yup, chucked all the moss. I think the wood looks great without it and I have enough of putting it on rocks. Major pain on pruning because all hardscape cannot easily removed for that purpose (big mess each time). I found moss in all plants from pruning cuttings
- There is not much space left in front of that giant rock to keep the wood in place. I might have to wait to finalize that aread until this rock can be replaced by a smaller rock.
- Foreground more intersting: Given that I place the Macandra in the spot where the Pearl Grass is now I will use that to plant a "lawn" of it in the front . Might not work too well, but I think it is worth a try. If not, I thought about hair grass.

Thanks again Bensaf,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 15:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Shekoi,

Sorry, only now saw your entry, thanks

It took SEVEN hours, from 10 AM to 5PM. I know this would have been the perfect opportunity to catch the Espei, but there was no time and I also have to check with the LFS first to see if and when they would like them. I thought about it, but I had to focus on one task at a time .

About the Otos: yeah, I got very worried as I found only 5 out of 6. I thought one might be in a plant bucket, but eventually found him/her munching on a Cyperus leaf (the only plant not removed from the tank during the process. So, all are accounted for .

I agree on no major moves at this time (except the ones mentioned above), besides the fact that I got to hear it from the wife anyway as I neglected my parential duties for yet another day.

And I agree on the foreground as well

Thanks,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 15:49Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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LF,

So this is what you were going all day yesterday Remind me how you got your wife to allow another Saturday of tank work...


My comments aren't as rich and plentiful as the others, but my two points:

1.) Just to echo the need for different stem plant groupings - it seems there's so much grassiness going on there, some different leaf shapes in prominent spots I think would help out

2.) IMO the wood is fine where it is. On the one hand, I can see what others are saying - it feels like if you pulled it to the left 5 inches it would be so much better. But after looking at it the hardscape structure itself - the wood plus rocks - is off center, so it doesn't look awkward. My eye tends to see it the latter way now, so it looks good in my book


Back in the saddle!
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K,

Updated as discussed above. No more replanting today, the wife calls on my childcare duties .

Here is the tank,is it better now? Detail shots much later in the day (evening). Can you see some fishies ?

Ingo

Attached Image:

Latest Update



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Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 17:19Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Hey Little_Fish,

My fish reaction is WOW, what a difference. Now you have a good base to work with and you could fine-tune from here.
Yeah the DW grouping could have been alittle more off center, but I also believe you could work with it where it is. Yes more red would be nice, with just one red grouping it might pull your eye to that spot and conflict with the wood.

I have to give you alot of credit. It must have been difficult to tear the tank down, but it definitely paid off.

My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 17:25Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Sorry last one was quick. Wife was screaming dinner ready !

- Bold Stems: I still have 3 of the crippled Althernanthera that I couldn't identify. They are currently in front of the Macandra and invisible as they blend right in. Maybe I can make them grow better, now that they actually get propper light


Reineckii is a nice plant, but I find it too bold and dark to be used in big quantities. Looks best behind bright greenery poking ouy the top in a tight bunch -dramtic. But needs to be tall.
Yep 2 reds together never works.

- The front left has a crypt wendtii, red . It just doesn't show in the picture as it is too small (maybe 10 leaves) because it had been covered by dwarf sags / chain swords in the past (and Glosso).

It'll grow taller with more light. Get more to fill out that far left front area. Maybe mix in some green types or different shapes like Willissi or Becketti. A big grove.

- There is not much space left in front of that giant rock to keep the wood in place. I might have to wait to finalize that aread until this rock can be replaced by a smaller rock.

That's why I was suggesting a fern. No need to worry about space.Plonk it on the wood or between the wood and rock. It will hide the fact that the rock is holding the wood down, so you can forget about it. The narrow leaf will give a nice horzontal shape to counter all the vertical grasses. Ferns are great for giving a sense of structure and depth. Having a couple of specimens of about the same size but at different heights gives a wonderful look.You can have one bunch where the rock is holding down the wood and then another bunch higher up -just wedge it in the v where a branch splits for example.

- Foreground more intersting: Given that I place the Macandra in the spot where the Pearl Grass is now I will use that to plant a "lawn" of it in the front . Might not work too well, but I think it is worth a try. If not, I thought about hair grass.

Foregrounds are very hard to too (probably why so many resort to the simple carpet).
What I mean is a few smaller structures to counter the larger main wood and rocks. Adds depth and interest.
What you've got at the moment is plant-small gap-rock-small gap-plant-small gap etc. Bigger but fewer gaps would work better.Tighten things up at the fron, don't be afraid of a few big open areas.
Example:you've got a few anubias scattered around. I'd be tempted to bring them all together in one area near the front and build a mound of them (you can use small rocks to support)maybe a few small river rocks scttered in front or to the side of this planting. Intersting little features like this with open ground between them will give added interest, a sense of order and depth.

Take a while look at the tank and try to visualize little areas of interest you can create.




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Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 17:34Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Just saw the new pic. Much better The macrandra works better with the green behind it and the rubin balance the color. Looks much more co-hesive now.


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 17:39Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I LOVE the tank's new look. It is not so much a jungle anymore. I like bensaf's advice on the anubias, it seems to have much more impact when grouped together rather than scattered. As things grow out again, more areas of interest will appear as well I think. Looks good! If it's alright with you I'd like to send before and after pics to my cousin, she wants a fish tank with live plants after she moves and is collecting ideas. I've sent her the link to this site and shown her your thread as well. All she had to say was WOW!

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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Weekly Tank Update - Week 19

Well, the title is rather wrong as I am not going to post past and current full tank shots, the events of this weekend overshadow any normal weekly update by far. The changes performed are dramatic and their outcome makes me feel like I want to introduce you to more details of the new layout. I think that a total shot (you can see it on the previous page of this log) does not reveal the details that this design offers.

But one thing about the general change: Plants that have been removed from the design are - Ludwigia Repens, Xmas Moss, Apons, and the Red Melon Sword, good by .

Now to the entries between my last one and this:

tetratech - Thanks my friend, an almost unconditional compliment from one of my scaping buddies is a rare event, I will have a beer in your honor. Yes, it was mentally very difficult for me to tear down the tank, I honestly can say that I was scared and very worried that I will create nothing but a big mess.

NowherMan6 - Yeah, that was what I did all day yesterday . How did I manage that my wife gives me the time for that - Well, I am sure I will have to pay her back for it one way or another. The start were my child duties today, but I am certain that many more chores will follow.

Bensaf - As you suggested, I will take my time to evaluate additional options. Right now I am just glad the tank is still running.

luvmykrib - Thanks for the compliments. Sure you can send the pictures to your cousin, with a few conditions of course: a) no additional publishing and b) she will have to sign a contract that she is going to read the whole thread which will be followed by a multiple choice quiz about it (just kidding, at least for point b). About the Anubias mountain (and this counts for Bensaf as well): I think you overestimate the size of the tank. Each one of my Anubias takes up quite some significant real estate. If I would put these 5 together I would think that I need at least a quarter of the entire tank just for them. Even if it is a good idea, it would have to wait as I am tired of major changes (for this week).

Anyway, hold your breath as the next 20 entries will be tank pictures. I hope I will not bore you to death.

Thanks for all the support, I could have done it without you folks.

Ingo


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The first picture was taken during the replant. It shows the enormous and entangled root system of the Crypt Retrospiralis. It took me a good 20 minutes just to separate individual plants from this block.

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Retrospiralis Mess



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Another shot from the replant. Can you say Espei ?

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Loads of Espei



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Here is another photo from yesterday, showing the Espei Autobahn (German highway, in case you don't know what that is - no speed limit ).

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Autobahn



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Now a 3 picture series of the tank, just to show some more details and their relationship to the tank. Here is the left side. I bet you that you cannot distinguish between Retrospirals and Narrow leaf Sags, they are mixed with each other. Also, the new position of the Red Rubin Sword is shown.

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Left Side



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Here is the middle, with Sword, Star Grass, and Cyperus in the back.

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Middle Shot



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Here is the right, with its new focus plant – Rotala Macandra.

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Right Shot



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An even closer look at the center, with the wood and the Jersey Star Grass (right tetratech? )

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Center



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And a close-up of the Red Rubin Sword, in front of it you can see the 3 saved Althernanthera stems, I just cannot let go of them.

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Red Rubin



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All the way in front of the Sword is this lineup, some Pearl Grass, 2 Crypt Wendtiis, and a sag.

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Front Part



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Here you see more of the right front corner. I gave the Isoetes Lacustris more of a visible position. More Pearl Grass and 2 Green Wendtiis complete that section.

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Here is the Crypt Wendtii in the left corner, actually - I guess it is a green one. Maybe it will color up now that it gets some light.

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Front Left



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A close-up of the Rotala Macandra group.

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Macandra



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A close-up of the 3 saved Althernanthera stems.

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Althernanthera



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The Anubias Barteri on the left, you can see that it is getting another flower (again). See the bubbles? I observed that all flowers of the Anubias do that before they open. I find it interesting as such a behavior is usually associated with an injured part of a plant.

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Anubias Barteri



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A close-up of the Isoetes Lacustris.

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Isoetes



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For all Oto fans, a nice shot of an Oto inspecting the new driftwood.

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Oto 1



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And here again, I guess there must be food on it already.

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Oto 2



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And for the Harlequin fans, here are two colored up males fighting for dominance (in front of the Jersey Star Grass).

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Who's the Man?



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And here is the winner. Compare his color to the female on the left.

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I am the Boss



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Last but not least, yes, babies survived the mess as well .

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bensaf
 
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Each one of my Anubias takes up quite some significant real estate. If I would put these 5 together I would think that I need at least a quarter of the entire tank just for them.


So ?

If you don't mind half the real estate been taken up by tall grassy plants why worry about 1/4 been taken up by broad darker plants to counteract ?


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If you don't mind half the real estate been taken up by tall grassy plants


Yeah, but not in one spot

I will think about it, maybe sometime I am ready for this

Thanks Bensaf,

Ingo


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EditedEdited by Wingsdlc
Wow! I go home for the weekend and this is what happens! LF! I really like the DW. Personaly I don't find a problem with the placement. Are you going to re grow everything back into a jungle again?

One more thing! I can easly see the rock on the back left side being eaten by your plants once again. Maybe a taller rock there?

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Dang you have a ton of fish in there!

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NowherMan6
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LF,

Just wanted to say great shots! Were they taken by the Tamron? Whatever you used, the texture of the DW is beautiful in that first oto shot.





Oh, and the oto itself is nice too


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Wings -

Thanks . No, I don't think I will regrow a jungle, at least not on purpose. Hopefully I catch better times when pruning is needed. Good idea about a larger rock on the left, I will see what I can do (without taking up too much ground cover). Yup, loads of fishies .

NowherMan6 -

Were the shots taken by the Tamron? No, they were taken by me . Yes, I think all really close close-ups were taken with the Tamron. I also love the texture of the wood in that Oto shot, this was the main reason this picture made it onto the site. Thanks for the compliment.

Ingo


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I think the new wood looks great, even if it is a bit centered. I think that the really great rock placement counters that a bit. All those rasboras look so cool! I'm disappointed that you got rid of the apons, but I'm well aware how much space they take up, so I understand why you took them out. I cant wait to see the pearlgrass fill in a bit, and that stargrass looks amazing! The rotala macandra really draws the eye, but as pretty much the only red plant in view, it looks a little out of place. I hope your alteranthera bounces back to add a little more pink to the aquascape.
Beautiful re-scaping!

Hoping that there must be a word for everything I mean...
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illustrae,

Thanks for the compliments. Sorry to dissapoint you on the Apon front, I just didn't really like it anymore. The yellowish/greenish leaves in bunches didn't make an impression on me. It had a nice flower once in a while though .

Thanks again,

Ingo


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LF,
The wood really looks nice, I especially like the shot that you reference the Jersey Stargrass. I just really like the way the stargrass looks with the wood.

One thing I did notice if I may .
I noticed one pick that shows a large size vertical rock on the left side that looks like it's very close to the front glass. Is that there as part of the design or simply to hold down the DW temporarily, becuase it appears to be too big for that position so close to the glass. Just curious.

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EditedEdited by weird22person
Wow. I just read the whole tread. It only took about a month.
Its a nice looking tank and i cant wait for it to fill in after the replant. Im surprised you removed the Xmas Moss because you seamed so concerned about its battle with algae.
One thing i did notice is that there is no movement on the bottom. Maybe a few cories?
Keep up the good work.
Now to tetratech's log...see you in about a month.

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tetratech:

One thing I did notice if I may


- I knew that the unconditional compliment phase would be short lived

I assume you mean the rock at the left of the driftwood trunk. Hm, it is there to hide the cut of the branch. This was the only position the wood really fit in nicely and it left the cut wide in the open and close to the glass. The rock hides that "unnatural" looking aspect of the driftwood. Remember when I had all my rocks further back? Within weeks you couldn't even see them anymore and I think that once things will grow a little this one will be less visible, although not completely hidden (I want to show my rocks).

weird22person - How brave of you
Now all you have to do is to keep up with the thread (and tetratechs, and NowherMan6s, and Dr. Bonkes, and all the others ). Cories are nice, but I think in the long run there will not be too much open space on the substrate. I will have to think about it. Thanks for the suggestion.

Ingo


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I want to show my rocks

If you must

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If you must





Come on tetra, keep it PG-13 in here. There are children about...


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tetratech
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uh, nowher I'm referring to LF's big rock near the front of the glass

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of course! Whoops, my bad... that's 4 years of all boys hgihschool talking there...


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AAAnyway,

Do you guys have a better idea on how I could make the cut section of the driftwood not be visible, I am open for suggestions.

I think you can see the area about 2 pages back on pictures of the tank during the redo.

Thanks,

Ingo


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doesn't a rock cover the cut end?

in the last picture page 51 i think - you can't see the cut

could you bury it more in the substrate.

i have the same problem with my bogwood, but i'm going to plant loads small plants right close to the cut end, hopefully hiding it.

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How about a small mound of anubias? Attached to smaller rocks and the piece of driftwood itself. I'm seeing the smaller form of nana and petite, or another nice plant I use for concealing things is java fern windelov, or both in a small mound. Then you could appease bensaf and conceal the cut end at the same time!

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Appeasing bensaf is always a good idea

Below is a picture of the area in question.

There is no way it could be buried, that would have to be a huge mountain of gravel.

Doing the mount thing soooooo close to the front will create similar problems than the rock does right now. A mountain of plants really really close to the front glass.

Ingo

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What to do?



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NowherMan6
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I'm confused, isn't that part of the DW already blocked by a rock?


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I suppose there's no way of moving it back slightly, just enough that then you could conceal it with a smaller rock with some petite attached? I'm not thinking a HUGE mountain of anubias, rather a small tumble of anubias.

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tetratech
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I'm confused, isn't that part of the DW already blocked by a rock?

I think LF is trying to find alternatives to the rock. I mentioned it was too close and too big to the front glass.


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EditedEdited by tetratech
O.K. This is my first reaction and it will keep all the nice work you've done intact.

Cut that thick base that's sticking up in the air (I mean water) on an angle and then take the same rock you had that was standing up, but now lay it down on the cut angle and plant around it. If it's laying down toward the back of the tank it will be easier to soften with ground cover etc. and will look more natural.



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luvmykrib
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First attempt at this painting on pictures thing so bear with me, here's sort of what I'm saying.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c56/luvmypetz/DriftwoodDilemma.jpg
This gives a bit of an idea of what I am seeing, I'm no artist, and this would also require a bit of space to do.

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Oh, I see. I actually like the big rock close to the grass. It's unusual and certainly presents some opportunites for aquascaping with small plants. If I may repost one of LF's pics (below) I would surround the base with HC, and also have the HC creeping up the side between the rock and wood, blending them together. I've seen it used vertically like this before, plus as discussed in Chaos' thread, HC is a slow grower, not like glosso. Just my opinion, of course



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You folks are cracking me up.

Well, let's see:

- tetratech: no way I remove the wood right now to saw off part of it, although the thought has crossed my mind. It took me 30 min to put it in place, and that was without any plants in the tank.
- NowherMan6: planting around the rock might be an option, I will have to see.
- luvmykrib: Sounds good, but this would be really Nana Petite then. How about a small Java Fern instead, maybe even attached to the cut directly (if I can figure out how to tie it on under water )? Some crypts might look nice as well, anything that doesn't grow too tall and would not cover the plants behind it from the viewer.

Thanks for trying ,

Ingo


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luvmykrib
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I think that was one of my suggestions, to attach a plant right to the cut end.
I use a slipknot for hard to tie things, it may be tricky but I think doable. Or if you can't tie the plant on, then a smaller rock with the plant on and that should also do the trick.
Yes I meant petite, I also am very fond of java fern (I've had to be) and both are prunable as well, so you can keep them smaller.

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no way I remove the wood right now to saw off part of it, although the thought has crossed my mind. It took me 30 min to put it in place, and that was without any plants

I guess looking at a pic, it's hard to appreciate how hard it would be to take the one piece of wood out.

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luvmykrib
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It's also hard to tell just how close to the glass the branches are. Pictures tend to have no depth perspective to them on the flat computer screen.

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luvmykrib,

Yeah, a small rock with the plant on it sounds good too.

tetratech,

I agree, it looks so easy to remove the wood and put it pack in. But its depth is as deep as the tank, its height almost as high as the tank, parts have plants woven into it (Star Grass and Pearl Grass), and other plants (like Anubias) are planted really close to it. No doubt I would have to replant at least some of them.

I will try to take a picture that shows it from a different perspective, but it will have to wait until tomorrow night as it will be too late today when I get home and too early tomorrow when I leave the house again.

Really, thanks for all the effort in helping making the tank (even) better.

Ingo


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Then you could appease bensaf and conceal the cut end at the same time!


Hmmmm...... that's because I'm usually right ?

Ram some Java Fern - wendelov or Narrow Leaf in the gap between the wood and the gravel. Job done, no worries about shading etc.


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Post InfoPosted 08-Feb-2006 08:39Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
luvmykrib
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There's always a simpler solution than we can see, probably because we're so close to our own problem and need some perspective. As the other plants begin to fill in it won't be as obvious, but sticking anything in front of it will help to hide it for now.

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If you ever do deside to move it you could trim the edges to look more natural. Go at the thing with a saw and some heavy sandpaper.
And i see what you mean about keeping up with the thread. Dont you people have better things to do?

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Well I should do my homework but I am not so sure that would be better....

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As promised (although a little late), here is a picture of the rock to hide the stomp from a different angle. Just so you get a feeling of how close it is to the glass. The Crypt Wendtii leaf tip is touching the glass.

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Close Encounter



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And because tetratech and I had a discussion about "how to plant Anubias", here is a close-up showing how I root my Nana in the substrate.

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Nana in Substrate



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And, so we don't forget these guys, the Pearls are doing great in the tank

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Pearls Together



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And another one where you can see that the males' throat is turning orange. He is becoming a man , I can't wait for the first bubble nest.

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Pearls Again



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Post InfoPosted 10-Feb-2006 01:04Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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great photos again LF

did you say your bogwood was off ebay?

i'm after one that looks like roots for mangrove look, in my 40g, thinking of not having africansi just don't know!

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Ingo, the rock IS very close to the glass. It will be tricky trying to figure out how to disguise the cut end without getting too close to the glass.

The gourami's look gorgeous as well, you take great pictures!



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EditedEdited by Wingsdlc
We all should take a trip there and pick out what we want. That is really sweet! Think he would ship to the US?

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All,

Thanks again for the comments on the pictures. Although I sometimes think that I make good pictures there are other time when I feel more like the opposite is true. I have not yet been able to even once capture a larger group of the Espei in one photo. Either it is out of focus, or over-exposed, or under-exposed, or the fish don't show because there is too much green around them .

SheKoi - That is some pile of wood, 2 tons, wow. But they all look very chunky. Yes, I got mine of eBay, with the help of NowherMan6 who pointed my to this particular item (thank again).

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 10-Feb-2006 12:45Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Sorry to sound like a broken record, and please let me know if you want me to stop with the photography stuff, but there are a few ways of getting around the situation you describe regarding capturing the espei school. First set camera to ISO 1600. Next, and most importantly, when taking a shot of a large school you need depth of field. Camera blur is one thing, but with many lenses you don't realize how shallow DOF is at the max aperture (2.8 in the case of the Tamron) I can tell with many of your close-up pictures that either you or the camera is using the max aperture - part of the subject is in focus, but another part less than an inch away is blurred, this is the tell-tale sign. Schools don't line up one right behind the other, they are all different distances from the camera so you need to use a smaller aperture to capture all of them in reasonable focus. Set aperture to 5.6 minimum, see if you can get away with that, otherwise try f/8 or even f/11 (may be too slow shutter speed, try anyway) That should at least help keep them all in focus and the high ISO should help you stop the motion. As for exposure issues, you can try spot metering, or use center-weighted. Using too wide an area will throw you off.


Regarding the wood, it's interesting that they say it's for show only, something to that effect, not specifying aquarium use. I wonder if it's not aquarium safe?


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EditedEdited by tetratech
I guess I have to add an SLR camera to my list. My fastest ISO setting is 400 on my Canon S2 IS. I guess I can get good pics but I would have to put an incredible amount of light over the tank. Like 100wpg.

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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
please let me know if you want me to stop with the photography stuff


PLEASE DON'T STOP

If it wouldn't be for your "photography stuff" then I wouldn't make the pictures that I do. I think you are right on with your evaluation of how I take pictures. I know I have 1/1600 and probably the 2.8 as well. I will try to somehow change to the settings you suggest. As I said in some other content, I am by definition actually a lazy guy and as such haven't even managed yet to take the Tamron instructions out of the package .

Maybe I have some time this weekend to actually focus on getting a school in focus () .

Thanks,

Ingo

EDIT: tetratech - Can't find the smiley with the sunglasses anymore, otherwise I would have posted 5 in a row right here (only see one that indicates cool, but that is not the case with 100wpg )


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EditedEdited by NowherMan6
Thanks I'll bring up the photo stuff sparingly, how about that?


Maybe I have some time this weekend to actually focus on getting a school in focus




Well, you'll be stuck indoors for a few hours on Saturday through Sunday with the snow storm that's coming our way, so you'll have time to play around... as long as it doesn't take you another 12 hours


p.s. - tetra, you've done a great job taking photos with the camera you have, you need not move up unless you really want to


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tetra, you've done a great job taking photos with the camera you have, you need not move up unless you really want to

Thanks nowher, I just have trouble getting those really close clear ones.

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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
I just have trouble getting those really close clear ones


That's not the camera, that's a talent I have



Ingo


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That's not the camera, that's a talent I have

But of course

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Hows that?

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weird22person,

indicates cool, but 100wpg are more of the opposite

Maybe would be good to describe the feeling of 100wpg.


Anyway, I took 30 shots with all kinds of camera settings, to almost no avail. In this picture (the only one half way descent) you can get an idea about the fish load.

Ingo

Attached Image:

Top Level Dwellers



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Post InfoPosted 11-Feb-2006 01:22Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
luvmykrib
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Ingo, the rock covering the cut end doesn't look too bad at all, as the plants in and around it fill in it will start to look like it serves more of a scaping purpose than a camoflage purpose. The tank looks great! The espei autoban looks like a fun place to be!

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Post InfoPosted 11-Feb-2006 05:55Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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The espei autoban looks like a fun place to be!


Well, I have to say that it reminds me more of rush hour traffic going into Manhattan than the times when I raced over the German Autobahn with 140mph .

Yeah, from this angle the rock doesn't look all that bad, you are right luvmykrib.

Overall I have a feeling that my replanting concluded in too little of a plant mass as I experience enhanced growth of thread / staghorn algae, not too wild though but enough to make me think about it. I might go out and try to find some additional plants, chances are I will not get anything locally as all the common plants seem too boring.

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Post InfoPosted 11-Feb-2006 13:13Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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BTW the rock in the back left is already going away....

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Post InfoPosted 11-Feb-2006 15:49Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Wings,

I know

I might try to put a bigger one in during this afternoons water change. But thanks for reminding me .

I actually see a similar event happening to the stone on the far right so I might replace it as well, if I find a more suitable one in my collection .

Thanks,

Ingo


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I think one of the biggest things you need to look out for is keeping your hardwear visible from some sort of angle. If you don't then whats the point of even having it there.

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Post InfoPosted 11-Feb-2006 16:29Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Wings,

That's so true. You may remember my last layout (up to a week ago) and there were about 10 rocks in the tank. Did you see any? Maybe one or two, the rest was consumed by the plants. And the only two real large ones were covered in Xmas Moss.

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Post InfoPosted 11-Feb-2006 16:37Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Very nice pic LF. Tank looks great and it hasn't even filled in yet.

Went to one of my LFS to buy some more cardinals to start my own autobahn, but they only had tiny ones. I was going to take a chance with the UV and all, but when I looked closer at the tank I noticed ICH. Even with th UV don't want to go there.

I did come away with Two Cherry Shrimps and one plant. I believe it is a Rotala wallichii.




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Cool tetratech,

Can't wait to see pictures of the Cherry Shrimp, if they ever show themselves, that is .

And good move on NOT getting the cardinals, why risk it

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A few details of todays water change. Full shots will follow tomorrow in the weekly update.

Some of the following 6 pictures will have questions, so I would appreciate if you could read the text as well

No1: Water Change - the best time to get a group of Espei in focus

Attached Image:

Espei Gang



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Post InfoPosted 12-Feb-2006 00:02Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Two of my 3 and a half Crypt Lucens. I have them since over two months and they used to be located right in front of the Apons (invisible from the front of the tank).

They haven't done much in the meantime, maybe gained one or two leaves. Is that normal? Now they are to the right of the big wood group more towards the foreground.

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Crypt Lucens



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Post InfoPosted 12-Feb-2006 00:05Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I went to the LFS today to check on some plants and to see if they would like my Espei. Unfortunately it was very crowded (every Saturday that is the case) and on top of it I saw a tank with juvenile Espeis. I have to say that these don't compare to mine at all. Mine are much fuller and more colored up, which shouldn't be too much of a surprise given that these in the LFS have been shipped from Asia and must be very stressed on top of it. In short, I didn't ask if they want mine as I guess they have enough at the moment.

Anyway, I got this plant. They only had one of them, Crypt Lutea. It came in a small pot with the wool and after removing the latter I planted it as one unit close to a rock. It is just a little shaded (not much) by an Anubias Barteri. Should I have attempted to separate it? Bad spot?

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Crypt Lutea



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Post InfoPosted 12-Feb-2006 00:12Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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The other plant I bought was a small piece of Narrow Leaf Java Fern ( $ 6 ). I just squeezed it in a gap between the rock and the driftwood. Bad idea?

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Narrow Leaf Java Fern



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Post InfoPosted 12-Feb-2006 00:14Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Here is another shot of it from a little further away (to see it more in perspective to the scape)

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Narrow Leaf Java Fern II



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Post InfoPosted 12-Feb-2006 00:15Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Last but not least, another Pearl shot. This time their pattern blends right into the air bubbles that rise in the tank shortly after the water change.

Attached Image:

Pearls



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Post InfoPosted 12-Feb-2006 00:17Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Nice pics LF. I guess most of the young espei survived "Extreme Makeover"

I like the Crypt Lutea. Looks like a good spot.
It's amazing how slim the plant pickings are at the stores.
It's funny to see some highlight plants in the stores that are under lowlight knowing that if they aren't sold within a few weeks there pretty much dead.

I was alittle surprised one of my LFSs had a 125g in the back with only plants in it. In neat rows with two coralife fixtures on top. This was the store I got the riccia from a few weeks ago. When I went back it was all gone and I noticed alot of it in a mess floating with some duckweed and lots of algae all over it.

I'll be posting some pics later tonite after my water change and planting of the Rotala wallichii, but I think I have to renew my premium membership. (As long as my wife lets me)

I'm gonna say a prayer and drink a few brews hoping our tanks don't lose power tonite.

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I am with you tetratech,

How much are we supposed to get? 6 to 12 inches, right?

Snow, in case the others don't know what we are talking about.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 12-Feb-2006 01:54Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Same deal in Massachusetts. 8-16 inches is conservative they said. I just hope for your fishes sake it isn't icy down in Jersey. Good luck!

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Ok first things first...
The first crypt question. Crypts are substrait eaters and they might need some type of tab fert and maybe more light?

Secondly....
Do you guys get lake effect snow? Where I go to school here in more centeral Mi we get some but its nothing like what I get back home right by the lake. Must of my fellow students don't understand..

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Sunday Morning, 7 AM:

So far we had maybe 10 inches, but it keeps on coming down . It is supposed to be over by mid afternoon, I think.

Anyway - Wings: Crypts are (for the most) low to medium light plants and don't require high light. My substrate has a layer of Laterite and also should have accumulated enough mulm to keep the Crypts happy.

On other notes: I added the Rainbows from the QT to the main tank last night. Here they are all bagged up:

Attached Image:

Rainbows coming in



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Post InfoPosted 12-Feb-2006 14:16Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Soon after release the fish were still a little shy, here is an Espei checking on the new tankmate (male):

Attached Image:

Check out the new Dude



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Post InfoPosted 12-Feb-2006 14:17Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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The same happened to the girls. Somehow quite a few Espei huddled behind this one for a while. Maybe she got so stressed that she dropped eggs?

Attached Image:

The female being investigated



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Post InfoPosted 12-Feb-2006 14:18Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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But soon after, the Rainbows became more dominant and stated to chase older Espei away and seriously went after young Espeis as a food source. No kidding when one of you (I think it was Wings) said that they are fry control.

Well, here is a picture of the Male Pearl who made sure that even the Rainbows know who is the real boss in the tank. He frequently swam up to them, not in a threatening fashion, but making sure they get out of his way when he comes even closer:

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The Boss



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Here are two males starting to explore. See the one with the missing dorsal fin piece? I wonder how he lost that part - I am sure he would be able to tell quite a story. I mentioned much earlier that he had the missing part since I got him, it seems to be too severe to grow back. My handicapped male

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2 Dwarf Neon Rainbows



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And here is a close-up of a female Rainbow:

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Female Dwarf Neon Rainbow



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And lastly - A male

I think he is the leader

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Male Dwarf Neon Rainbow



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tetratech
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Well don't know how much snow we got, but let's put it this way I had to dig a path 6am this morning so my dog could do his business.

Anyway nice pics LF. Glad the rainbows finally made it to the show.

BTW - Do you put your lights on earlier on the weekend? Just curious since your pics are from this morning.


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tetratech,

The pics are from last night just before lights off. It just took me until this morning to filter out 7 pictures from the 80 that I made (and trim and resize them).

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The Yard Fish are having fun in the snow, and breakfast is served

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Yard Fish



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EditedEdited by Wingsdlc
Isn't it crazy how many pictures we have to take to get a few good ones?

Rainbows are looking nice! I am not sure if I said that they would be fry control but I am sure that they will help matters. Right now I have quite a few guppy fry in with my Rainbows but I also feed my fish pretty well.. Do your pearls do anything to them? Are they schooling nice? Mine hang pretty tight. Makes me a happy guy.

Edit:

I know that crypts don't need super light and you do have a good sub down but maybe a lot of the good stuff has been taken up already.

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NowherMan6
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Just popping in. Great pics LF. I LOVE the snow pic, gorgeous. Keep 'em coming

As for the crypts, they grow slow no matter what. From what i've read parva is by far the slowest, wendtii is like hygro in comparison.. the others are also slow and fickle. It may just be that it hasn't gotten settled since the replant. Maybe it'll take a few weeks? (by which time you'll be ready to uproot the whole damn thing over again )

Off to pay attention to the snow and my visiting gf now...


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Weekly Tank Update - Week 20

This week hasn't seen much change from last weekend. Fertilizers have been added as usual, which may or may not have been a good idea. During this weekends water change I notices quite an increase in thread (short) and even Staghorn Algae, the first one in particular on the back glass (and a few plants) and both on the Cyperus Helferi.

I added two plants to the tank, as suggested (but still small) a small Narrow Leaf Java Fern and a Crypt. Also, on special request by Wings, I replaced the rock on the left with a bigger one .

The Dwarf Neon Rainbows have been added to the tank last night and when checking on them this morning they were not schooling. Instead, each male was chasing after a female, and at least one of them seemed receptive to the male (the one I believe is the leader). I don't think I will have more babies though at this time as the tank is not jungle like enough to provide sufficient hiding space for tiny fry.

The weekly updates are only 5 pictures, as I showed a lot of details already on the previous page and top of this one. Now I only provide a short trip through the tanks evolution.

This was just after the initial planting:

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Week 0



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This is week 5, the tank has already been through its weed phase (used to speed up establishment) and is beginning to be scaped:

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Week 5



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By week 10, the scaping had become the main focus of the tank, many plants were moved and removed and new ones were planted:

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Week 10



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Week 15 was the beginning of the jungle days, plant growth was so immense that it became clear that things will have to change:

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Week 15



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Week 19 was that change during which the biggest replant since the tank's existence was performed:

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Week 19



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Now, the tank as of today, one week after the last picture. Not too much change, but plants begin to re-establish themselves and some growth can be seen as well:

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Week 20 - Today



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Wingsdlc
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LF,

Better rock. It will withstand the jungle to come a little better but I think tall will be better down the road...

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luvmykrib
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The tank looks great Ingo!
I think the narrow leaf java fern will do a good job where you tucked it. The rock will start to disappear a bit. Anubias seem to prefer to be shaded, at least mine do, I had to move some as it was getting covered in algae where it was. I also like different anubias grouped together for effect, they tend to complement each other. As for the crypts, some of them probably take longer than others to really become established. It took mine almost a year and they are all common types. If you don't move them around anymore they should start to grow more.

The snow! I'm SOOO jealous! That's where it all went! We have not had any real snow fall this year, it's going to be a rough spring and summer if we don't get any! My poor roses and fruit trees may suffer winter kill, not from it being too cold but from not having any snow cover. And my poor boys haven't gotten any good tobogganning in this year either. Enjoy all that snow!

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EditedEdited by tetratech
Actually I think some crawling wisteria would look great around the base of that rock and wood. I actually found some wisteria rooted into my driftwood the other day.

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NowherMan6
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Actually I think some crawling wisteria would look great around the base of that rock and wood.


LF didn't spend all that money on DW just to surround it with weeds.

But seriously tetra, did you do some sort of wisteria dance to make all the wisteria in everyone's tank grow like crazy? Because mine is not only the second tallest plant in my tank, it's also crawling like mad, taking over my HM....


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EditedEdited by tetratech
But seriously tetra, did you do some sort of wisteria dance to make all the wisteria in everyone's tank grow like crazy

Glad to hear it. Yes in fact, anyone who comes in contact with the Wisteria Wizard should have great success (As long as they stay on my good side.) If not, I will make your wisteria do some ungodly things.

Actually I find it very handy to have around. When I planted the Rotala Wall. I had to remove some and I couldn't beleive how many layers I had. When I setup my 12g as you could see I shoved as much as I could into the back of the tank when I started getting BGA. I really think it helped clean up the water. I also notice because of the leaf size it leaves enough space for corys to rummage thru.

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Thanks all for the input

ONE year for the Crypts to establish themselves? I seriously doubt that mine will ever get established then .

Wisteria in front of the driftwood? That would be right on the glass. Are you sure tetratech?

Ingo


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Wisteria in front of the driftwood? That would be right on the glass. Are you sure tetratech?

It would have to be plantede between the rock and dw and on the left back corner of the rock. As it grows in some of the leaves would wrap around to the front without it being to full.



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luvmykrib
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ONE year for the Crypts to establish themselves? I seriously doubt that mine will ever get established then


It took almost a year for mine because
A) Low-light conditions under 1 wpg
B) Constant rearranging by moi
C) Possibly underfed (Fertilize? why?)
D) All of the above

Yours are starting to grow one week after re-planting, I doubt it will take a year, they probably just needed some breathing space (don't we all?)

Tetra thinks we all need wisteria in our tanks, is the stuff the cure-all for everything? Maybe we can cure the common cold with Tetratech's Amazing Trained Wisteria TM!
I have to admit I still want some though, the water sprite is driving me mad! Oops too late! Already there!

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What lights do you have on that tank?

We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl year after year
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
hckycoz - I have 386W (2 x 96W 5,000K plus 2 x 96W 6,700K) power compact fluorescent lighting plus 6 moon lights (LEDs) from Coralife. This, and a few more details, can be seen in my profile. Welcome to FP EDIT: and nice signature, Pink Floyd

luvmykrib - Yeah, looks wise Wisteria seems to be prettier than Water Sprite, but that plant has its purpose as well, even if it might be only used as a helper in establishing a new planted tank (like in my case).

tetratech - I guess I will have to think about it. It sounds interesting and maybe one the large rock that holds down the drfitwood goes out then there might be an even better spot for it.

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luvmykrib
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You will need to figure out what to put in place of that rock eventually. How long until it becomes waterlogged anyway? I finally gave up on the piece I was floating in my water bucket, it didn't seem to want to sink...ever! I get the Geosystems driftwood or the bulk stuff from the Big Al's store in the city, then it is sure to sink.


I just wanted to show off my gold star!

I finally did it, after the practice one which I aced I couldn't seem to get them all right again!

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I get the Geosystems driftwood or the bulk stuff from the Big Al's store in the city

Luv, what is geosystems dw and you must be from the Florida area. Have you been to that new Big Als 18,000 ft store?

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luvmykrib
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Florida is a long way from where I'm at. I am an Alberta CANADA girl. The frozen North is my home, we send our Alberta clipper down that way to remind you guys what cold feels like, well at least we used to! We are finally getting that cold snap I was expecting way back in November.

The Big Al's in the city is in Edmonton, the Capital of Alberta, it is 20 mins from where I'm at.

Geosystems is a new line from Hagen, it is a natural biotope system. The kits are cheaper than the waterhome line in some cases. Wish I had seen that when we got the tank! The DW comes in differing sizes and is usually plastic wrapped or in a box. I like it because it will sink without needing to be soaked, just rinsed and in it goes. They have a line of natural gravel, stones and also a guide for planning your tank. Choose what biotope your fish will be from and then it gives you a selection of gravel, which plants to choose, what water parameters to aim for, pretty much what you need. I find it to be fairly flexible as well, but I am not a cookie cutter kind of person, I always colour outside the lines and the sky isn't always blue either.


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Post InfoPosted 15-Feb-2006 03:56Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Luv,
Excuse me had a senior moment. I did notice the Canadian indicator. Reason I said florida because I know Big Als has started to open retail stores in that state and wanted to see if anyone's been there.


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luvmykrib
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You are forgiven, I wish I had been there, or anywhere for that matter. It would be a lot warmer than here.

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Post InfoPosted 15-Feb-2006 04:13Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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luvmykrib,

Congrats on the first gold star, now hold it tight so you don't lose it again

And I am sure tetratech is hiding quite a few goldstars in his avatar and one day soon he will show us all 10 .

About the wood you buy at Big Al's. My LFS has driftwood packed in plastic as well and it works great in my smaller tanks. Only problem is that it leaks tannins for quite a while, but that is only a visual issue.

About my tank: it seems like thread algae is getting settled in. Every day I see a little more. I am dosing the same ferts than before the change. My guess would be that the plant mass is just too little now and plants are still working on estabilshing themselves.

And another thing, in case it helps identifying any imbalance: about half of my Rotala Macandra stems have the top section melting instead of forming new leaves. Just the tip of the plant.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 15-Feb-2006 11:42Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Check nitrates.

Macrandra is picky. Not enough No3 it will stunt , too much No3 it will stunt

Any other plants showing similar ? Smaller leaves , curled crinkled leaves ?


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Macrandra is picky. Not enough No3 it will stunt , too much No3 it will stunt

Then what to do about the poor starving Stargrass?

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No, no other plant seems to show similar issues, I would assume to see first signs on the Pearl Grass with its tiny leaves - but not (yet).

I have no issues with the Star Grass, except that some leaf tips turn black (no algae).

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Post InfoPosted 15-Feb-2006 16:48Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I have no issues with the Star Grass, except that some leaf tips turn black (no algae).

Actually what I meant was if you start to lighten up on No3 for the Macrandra

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Hm, so you assume I am overdosing at the moment? Might very well be.

Daily:

1/2 tsp of Potassium Nitrate
1/8 of Potassium Sulfate or 1/8 of Potassium Phosphate (one one day day, the other on the next)
17ml of TMG

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Post InfoPosted 15-Feb-2006 19:31Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Not saying your defintiely ODing just if you decide to cut current levels to see affect on the rotala.

Seems like alot of no3 especially since you cut out so much mass. Amano builds up levels to match mass, but we all agree no3 doesnt' cause algae.

My current dosing.

3 times/week

.5 tsp no3
.05 tsp po4
15ml flourish

I haven't dosed so4 separately in months.





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Post InfoPosted 15-Feb-2006 19:45Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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tetratech,

I don't care about the sulfate either it is the K that I am after. I don't want to add too much P so I alernate between Potassium Sulfate and Potassium Phosphate. Remember, I got that high tab P.

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Post InfoPosted 15-Feb-2006 20:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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let me get this straight you fertilize every day (ingo) or every other day (Tetra)? Considering that my plantload seems heavier than Tetra's I should then move mine to somewhere in the middle I guess? currently I'm dosing twice per week
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Yeah Dr.,

EI suggests to dose at least every other day, whereby you dose macros on one day and micros on the other, both 3 times a week. This leaves you with the day before the water change off (except feeding the fishies, of course).

I broke my dosage in half and dose every day to maximize the stability of the nutrient level.

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Post InfoPosted 15-Feb-2006 22:02Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Considering that my plantload seems heavier than Tetra's I should then move mine to somewhere in the middle I guess?


That's the beauty of EI - there isn't one exact dose you need, you're just shooting to get nutrient levels within and broad range, and keep them stable in that range. Three times a week for N and K isn't far out, that's what i do for my 46 gallon. I do 1/4 tsp KNO3 and 1/8 or slightly less K, then Flourish on off days, total 15ml per week or thereabout. In tetras case he has a lot of fast growers in there, tons of wisteria which can suck up nutrients. I think he also likes to keep N high for the stargrass. I try not to dose too much N because I have a relatively high fishload and i think my rotala likes it a little on the lean side. It depends on your plant load but also kinds of plants.

If the schedule Bensaf gave you is working then the results speak for themselves. You can adjust a little bit here and there to see if there are any changes, but the "good" range for are quite broad so you need not worry about hitting a specific target level. Just keep up the weekly WCs


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tetratech
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Considering that my plantload seems heavier than Tetra's

That's an interesting question I first glance yes, Dr. Bonke's tank has much more vertical mass, but I have a thick cushion of wisteria covering about 80% of my substrate and it is several layers deep. If I stood my tank on it's side. I would have 4 feet of the stuff.



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Post InfoPosted 15-Feb-2006 22:05Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Then what to do about the poor starving Stargrass?


This is where plants Macrandra become a pain.

It may be with the same dose of No3 and less plants that it is not been consumed at the same rate so has built up slightly and the Rotala doesn't like it.

Should you reduce No3 to perk up the Rotala ? Well, I wouldn't bother. Keeping No3 levels low to satisfy one plant is a crap shoot. You risk messing up the others. Not worth it IMO. Keep things going and if the Macrandra doesn't like it - tough.

If other plants show syptoms look more closely.

If it is No3, the plant mass will gradually increase to previous levels and consume more, bringing things back into a range the Rotala likes and it will recover quickly, it's a real fast grower.

Leave things be. Only change if you think things are too low. Usually the best change and the best results is to add not decrease.


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 16-Feb-2006 04:19Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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EditedEdited by bensaf
Don't take me wrong. I'm not suggesting high No3 is the Rotalas problem. It's one of a number of possibilities. The fact that you are seeing algae would indicate the opposite.

Re-check everything , especially Co2. When problems occur I almost always increase not reduce. More Co2, more N and P, more micros. It is almost always too little of something, hardly ever too much.

It's just that macrandra is funny, too little it's not happy, too much it's not happy. They are the nagging wives of the aquatic plant world.


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
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Bensaf,

Thanks for the advice, I was not intending to reduce the amouns of ferts.

The one thing I did 2 days ago was to move a small powerhead that was on the left to the right. That area used to be a little under-circulated and maybe the increased water flow will help evening out the ferts some more. This is not for the Macandra but an attempt to reduce the thread/staghorn algae.

BTW, the new Crypt Lutea seems to settle nicely. Leaves are responding to the light influence and have repositioned themselves to catch more of it. I might (at some point) take it out from its slightly shaded spot and place it in open light.

Thanks again,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 16-Feb-2006 11:34Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Well,

I haven't had much to say in my log in 2 days, but the ever increasing algae is worth a mention.

Here are 6 pictures of the tank as of today, water change will have to wait as my back does not permit me to drag heavy items (like 5G of water). Pulled a muscle from shoveling snow, getting old I guess.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 18-Feb-2006 21:34Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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First a nice one. The center group with wood and Star Grass is looking nice, I think:

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Center Group



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Post InfoPosted 18-Feb-2006 21:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Here is a closeup of malfunctioning/disformed tops of the Rotala Macandra:

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Rotala Macandra



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Post InfoPosted 18-Feb-2006 21:37Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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How about some Staghorn on the Cyperus Helferi:

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Cyperus Helferi



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Post InfoPosted 18-Feb-2006 21:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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And the same algae on the gravel:

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Staghorn



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Post InfoPosted 18-Feb-2006 21:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Now some thread algae on the Red Rubin Sword:

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Red Rubin Sword



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Post InfoPosted 18-Feb-2006 21:39Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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And last but not least, even the new driftwood is getting a layer of Thread algae

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Driftwood



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Post InfoPosted 18-Feb-2006 21:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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LF,

Hey, even your algae looks nice . They are good pictures. I was just wondering if thats duckweed floating on the top of the tank or if its something else. It looks cool.

Chaos


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Post InfoPosted 18-Feb-2006 22:32Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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The center group with wood and Star Grass is looking nice, I think

Holy Maintenance! It does look nice, but are you crazy putting that stargrass around all that wood.

I think you know my humble opinion on your algae. Forget how much no3, po4 and micros your dosing, this has more to do with light and waste. With your light you have less wiggle room and more room for the algae to creep back in, especially after a major change like you did.


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Chaos - Yeah, that is duckweed, but I would advise against it on a small tank as it can spread really fast and shade the whole tank. My tank is pretty much covered in 3 to 4 weeks, although I always only leave a few in.

Tetratech - I need more plants, darn

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 18-Feb-2006 23:55Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Wad the algae up into a ball and make some tribbles!


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Dr. Bonke
 
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Ingo,
Looking at the last few algae photos I'm getting a slight deja vu. The stuff on the wood and plants look exactly the way it did on mine before it got completely covered. And yesterday I too found a few threads of staghorn in my tank I'm going to follow you very closely now to see how you will get rid of that Otherwise, great looking!
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bodangit - hm, thanks, I guess

Dr. - I had worse algae before, at the time my tank was not established yet. It makes perfect sense that similar events happen now, given that

a) I thinned out the plant mass by at least 50%
b) I uprooted all but one species (although interestingly it is the one with the most threads and staghorn)

Actually, the Cyperus had already some algae while the tank was redone. It definately came from the Xmas moss that was on the rocks and jumped over to leaves of the Cyperus as they bend onto the moss. As a slow grower, it makes sense that the algae feels pretty happy there.

Although I haven't made my mind up completely yet, I am pretty sure that I will start one week of Excel treatment today (after the water change).

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 19-Feb-2006 11:19Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by dan76
hi ingo


long time reader first time poster

sorry, bad joke.

anyway , how are your rainbows doing?


cheers dan

OH TOLEEDY!
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Yeah Dan,

All the entries I make in your threads, you owe me quite a few

The rainbows are doing just fine. The peruse the tank, sometimes alone and sometimes as a group, but no tight schooling. I also see some males having interest in the ladies, but I would be surprised if any fry would turn up any time soon.

And keep on posting, will ya

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 19-Feb-2006 12:14Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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The Rotala is stunting.

That and the algae my first impression would be low Nitrates.

I'm not a fan of the daily dosing routine you are doing. Trying to micro manage and limit the doses is troublesome. Some plants can grab N quicker and easier then others. By try to add just enough per day is running the risk of one or more species getting left out of the food hunt.

Dosing about 10ppm 3 times (more then even the nest tank can consume in a day) a week will ensure everything gets it's share.
I also see what looks like some white dots on the rotala leaves. White dots on this plant would indicate FE shortage.

Again, I'd be looking at nutrients and adding more. Start with Co2 and N.


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Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 19-Feb-2006 16:03Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Weekly Tank Update - Week 21

Well, as has been discusses, I am having a small Algae problem.

I couldn't do to much with the tank during the week and during todays water change as my back went out on Wednesday from too much snow shoveling.

What I did was that I added about ten smaller stems of the Bacopa from my 29G, just to increase the plant mass a little.

Also, based on Bensaf's advice, I decided to go back to bi-daily fertilizer routines. I also start another round of Excel treatment.

Today, I added 1tsp Potassium Nitrate and 1/4 tsp of Potassium Phosphate. Also 50ml of Excel. I will add 20ml of TMG later, just to get the micros a head start.

Tomorrow I will add another 30 ml of TMG, the following day the macros again, and the following day 30ml of TMG. From there on it will be the same amount on alternate days. Plus 20ml of Excel on all days (for a week).

I also replaced the sponge in the reactor with a new one, just in case, and beefed up the CO2 to "just below constant stream".

Pictures of this weekly update will be the last 3 weeks since this setup came into being. There is for sure some growth to be seen, in particular the Star Grass likes it in there ( right tetratech? ).

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 20-Feb-2006 01:22Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Week 19, just after replanting:

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Week 19



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Post InfoPosted 20-Feb-2006 01:23Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Week 20

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Week 20



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Post InfoPosted 20-Feb-2006 01:23Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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And today, week 21:

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Week 21



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Post InfoPosted 20-Feb-2006 01:24Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Star grass is going nuts.

I would work that has the high point and slide everything down to the corners

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I know your having some algae problems, but the tank is looking good and will look amazing once it fills in even more.

Today, I added 1tsp Potassium Nitrate and 1/4 tsp of Potassium Phosphate

Curious why are you adding n and p in a 4 to 1 ratio? I must be missing something.


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Post InfoPosted 20-Feb-2006 02:11Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Curious why are you adding n and p in a 4 to 1 ratio? I must be missing something.


1 tspn of KH2PO4 doesn't give the same ppm of phosphate as 1 tspn of KNO3 gives ppm of NO3.

So even if does 4:1 powder doesn't equate to 4:1 ppm.


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 20-Feb-2006 03:42Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
So even if does 4:1 powder doesn't equate to 4:1 ppm.

Glad it's an Estimate Index.
When I check the fertiliator (assuming it's correct) I would have 5.9ppm to 1.8ppm of N to P, a 3.3:1 ratio if I dosed the same way. I forget it's late. What is your source of N and what is your nephew's?



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Post InfoPosted 20-Feb-2006 06:45Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Should have checked my calculator before I said anything shouldn't I ?

Strangley Chuck's calculator differs it gives a result of 7.26ppm of NO3 and 1.77 PO4. Pretty close to a 4:1 ratio

Hmmm.... I wouldn't worry about the P, but that number for N is a bit low , and if the Fertilator is correct I'd consider that a very low dose

I'd definately be looking at upping my NO3 dosing. This nothing to do with ratios , it's just not enough NO3 going in IMO.


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Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
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tetratech and bensaf,

Glad you bring up the calculation again, as I haven't used any calculator in a while.

I would assume that at best I have 115G of water, if not down to 100G. With the 115G I get around 8ppm of N from 1tsp of KNO3. True, this may be a little too low, but what about all the N-forms that are produced by over 100 fish?

P would be at 115G around 2ppm at 1/4tsp, that may be too high, so maybe I should go down to 1/8tsp. Inparticular because my tab has P as well (supposedly, when measured a way while back, 2ppm).

Any thoughts?

Wings - thanks for the suggestion, I will see more when the plants have settled yet again

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 20-Feb-2006 12:53Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Wow that is something I haven't thought of. Less water to treat because of all the junk in the tank.

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Wings,

Yeah, I think when you have such a big tank that has an overall volume of 125G then you see some major differences in net volume. What I don't know is if these deductions (like over 200lbs of gravel, various rocks, and the wood) have been considered when the calculator formulas have been put in place.

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Post InfoPosted 20-Feb-2006 15:34Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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You have to start displacing a fair amount of water with all the gravel, wood and rocks. Then as your plant mass grows that has to have some effect too. Maybe not as much as the rocks and such. Food for thought though.

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Post InfoPosted 20-Feb-2006 15:48Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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but what about all the N-forms that are produced by over 100 fish?


Forget about it. You can't measure it so don't think about it.

The fish waste will be in the form of NH4. Plants will consume this before they consume NO3, it's easier to access the nitrogen in NH4. So if the NO3 is being consumed it means the NH4 is also being consumed.Beforehand.

NO3 won't cause algae. The tiniest smidgen of NH4 will.This is why the idea of adding more fish to increase NO3 rather then dosing doesn't work. The fish first produce NH4, dangerous, KNO3 is inorganic and safe.

Now , knowing you guys the way I do I am sure you will try to make a case that your current problems are due to fish load. Knock yourselves out.

I believe your problem is low NO3. Add more and see the results.A bit more inorganic NO3 won't hurt anything. Tetra will testify as to what happened when he increased doses. I believe it was all good. /:'


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Post InfoPosted 20-Feb-2006 15:56Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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What I don't know is if these deductions (like over 200lbs of gravel, various rocks, and the wood) have been considered when the calculator formulas have been put in place.



Didn't need to. You do that yourself. You can enter any volume of water you like. It's up to you to calculate how much water in your tank. Just because you have a 40gal tank doesn't mean you have to key in 40gals. You can key 30,35,55 etc.

But again, you don't have to be that precise. ESTIMATIVE Index.


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 20-Feb-2006 16:01Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I know... its all a big guess!

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Post InfoPosted 20-Feb-2006 16:11Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Glad it's an Estimate Index.


But again, you don't have to be that precise. ESTIMATIVE Index


EXACTLY, well not really. That is the key ESTIMATE. Don't worry about hardscape and exact gallon content.
To excess

The tiniest smidgen of NH4 will.This is why the idea of adding more fish to increase NO3 rather then dosing doesn't work. The fish first produce NH4, dangerous, KNO3 is inorganic and safe.

But there is a direct relationship between fish load and algae, with light and mass being the controling factors.



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LITTLE_FISH
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Ok Ok Bensaf,

I will switch to 1.25tsp of KNO3 and 1/8tsp of Potassium Phosphate, every other day . Happy now

Anyway, I will bring up tetratechs point (and mine) some more.

Fish load and NO3 fertilization: We all agree that plants prefer ammonia etc. over KNO3. Ammonia is only present in a tank with fish (or if someone adds fish food or ammonia for some reason). I assume (proof me otherwise) that ammonia is the same nutrient that the plant need than the one it gets from NO3. If you have no fish then all of this nutrient has to come from NO3. If fish are present then ammonia will be taken up first and only then the NO3 will be consumed. If you have a lot of fish then you may reach a point where only very little of the NO3 will be taken up because soooo much ammonia is available. Ergo, my assumption that I need less KNO3 than calculators tell you.

Am I wrong?

Ingo


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DeletedPosted 21-Feb-2006 02:26
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Got bored so I took some more pictures:

Here are two Crypt Wendtii surrounded by Pearl Grass. They just don't seem to grow that well in my tank(s):

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Crypt Wendtii



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Post InfoPosted 21-Feb-2006 02:28Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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The Alternanthera starts to show itself, now that it finally gets some light:

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Alternanthera



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Post InfoPosted 21-Feb-2006 02:29Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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The Boss of the Neons:

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Male Dwarf Neon Rainbow



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Post InfoPosted 21-Feb-2006 02:30Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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And one of my "Millions Fish"

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Espei



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Post InfoPosted 21-Feb-2006 02:31Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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LF,
I think there is always some waste/nh4 in the tank even without any fish. Decaying plant leaves, stems, uneating food will eventually get broken down into waste. And certainly the more plants the more likely the plants will get at the nh4 before the algae has a chance, but with less mass and good light the algae have a fertile environment to take hold.

Crypt Wendti:
Why do you think this plant doesn't grow well?
Nice pics, I really do like the rainbows. I am tempted to put a few in my tank. Do you know if they would eat my shrimp?

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bensaf
 
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Ergo, my assumption that I need less KNO3 than calculators tell you.


We are actually stepping back about 53 pages now.

All true about the NH4. But as I said you can't quantify it. So how much do you reduce NO3 doses to account for it

All this time and almost 2000 posts later you're still frightened of the nutrients.

Why even bother to reduce the No3 dosing to allow for fish waste? No3 is an inorganic source of N it won't cause algae. So instead of trying to do calculations and allowances for an unknown just add the No3. A little excess won't hurt, a shortage will kick your butt

At this stage of the tanks life you have a lot of plants and a large bacteria colony, NH4 will disappear almost as fast as it's produced.

Keep up with the NO3 dosing, give it 2 -3 weeks and tell us what you see.

For the crypt I always find they do better in planted in groups of 3 or so. They look a bit sad on their own. In groups they seem to go into competition mode and try to outgrow one another.


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
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