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  L# LITTLE_FISH 125G Log
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SubscribeLITTLE_FISH 125G Log
LITTLE_FISH
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Setup 1

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Configuration No1, 44 x 16 x 15



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Post InfoPosted 29-Jan-2006 23:32Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Setup 2

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Configuration No2, 43 x 17 x 18.5



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Post InfoPosted 29-Jan-2006 23:32Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Setup 3

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Configuration No3, 42 x 16 x 16



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Post InfoPosted 29-Jan-2006 23:33Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Setup 4

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Configuration No4, 44 x 17 x 16



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Post InfoPosted 29-Jan-2006 23:34Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Setup 5

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Configuration No5, 37 x 16 x 16.5



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Post InfoPosted 29-Jan-2006 23:35Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Last, Setup 6

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Configuration No6, 45 x 17 x 16.5



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Post InfoPosted 29-Jan-2006 23:37Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Well,

I am soaking it now in the tub and as expected it doesn't sink. We will see how long it takes until it stays under by itself. The big piece is still too big to be submersed completely and I let the skinny branches stick out.

Ingo

Attached Image:

Wood on a Dive



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Post InfoPosted 30-Jan-2006 00:14Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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Maybe you have this going on but I would put the biggest parts of the drift wood in the back of the tank and have the branches sticking out as much as posible to the front of the tank. It is just kind of hard to picture everything through pictures. (if that made any sence)



55G Planted tank thread
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Post InfoPosted 30-Jan-2006 02:57Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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And so it begins...

I'm partial to either 5 or 6.

I had a feeling it wouldn't sink on its own, to keep it down you may need to work creatively with some rocks. Since a lot of the wood will be covered in plants you can probably get away with keeping a rock sitting on top of the base of each piece. It'll also help if you bury each one an inch or so down in the substrate. The brancy parts of it will make the effect, not so much the bases, so it's OK to have a big rock sitting on each one. Heck, you can even work those rocks into the new 'scape. The important thing right now is to clean that sucker with some bleach solution.


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Post InfoPosted 30-Jan-2006 03:06Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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Right one with #5 I didn't see it that way before but if you turn them so the branches are coming at you that would be cool. At least that's how I see it.

55G Planted tank thread
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[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 30-Jan-2006 03:52Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Can't say I really like any of the configurations

Not keen on the way they meet like a bridge. I prefer wood to be poking at at angles.

You can use rocks to hold it down or even as support for the wood to lean on to create different angles for the branches.

You really won't get a feel for it until you try playing around with it in the tank. The planting will radically alter the shape of the wood.




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Post InfoPosted 30-Jan-2006 04:22Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks guys for trying ,

I can only imagine how hard it must be to judge the layout from pictures only; I don't even know how to position it when I hold it in my hands. Here are some more thoughts, randomly I may add:

- Wings, I can't have the braches coming forward, the wood is too long for this
- Yeah, I can see that I will have to use the rocks to hold it down, another design issue to consider (nice large rocks)
- the smaller element is probably too insignificant to make an impact by itself, that's why I tried to include it in the main group (rather than having it placed in the tank by itself with a gap to the big branch)
- One worry is that any layout which has the branches point straight up will disappear in the vegetation. I think that branch width and direction might be too similar to my plants and the whole thing wouldn't make a statement anymore
- Bensaf is right on with the statement that I will see how it looks once it is in the tank. And exactly that was the reason why I predicted that this will be the biggest overhaul ever, even bigger than the initial setup. I cannot have most plants still rooted and try to adjust the wood so it looks good with them, I think it should be the other way around, the plants should support the wood. As such most of the plants will have to be uprooted before placement can begin

Thanks again,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 30-Jan-2006 11:50Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
SheKoi
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lovely pieces of wood.

i'd go for setup 5 it looks more like a root system and will look very natural once all the plants are growing around it - look great with 100 little fish swimming around the branches.

i've never seen a piece like that before the closest i came was the one i've got which i more like a stump towards yours.


are you intending to remove most of your plants and then start again after the wood has gone in?

good luck with reaquascapping?

what is it with us hobbists - we design a tank set it up think thats great - few months later we want to change it my girlfriend could never understand that?

where did you get the wood from - i looked through post - just to many pages now.

shekoi

www.blooming-brilliant.co.uk
Post InfoPosted 30-Jan-2006 12:46Profile Homepage MSN PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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shekoi,

Thanks for the input and the compliments on the wood (from hell).

I got it of eBay, I challenged NowherMan6 to find me a nice piece (as they always teased me with my lack of hardscape) and 10 minutes later he linked me up with this one. What can I say, 5 days later and after paying a fortune, I owned that sucker .

Yes, I am afraid I will have to uproot most of my plants when adding the wood. I guess I will have to take a day off from work to do it, my wife will not give me another 12 hour break on a weekend any time soon.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 30-Jan-2006 15:37Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Yes, I am afraid I will have to uproot most of my plants when adding the wood

Is there a doctor in the house?

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Post InfoPosted 30-Jan-2006 19:32Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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A doctor ? Why would I need a doctor ?

I am not planning on pulling a muscle when uprooting the plants.

Come to think of it though, I might bang my head against the wall a couple of times in frustration .

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 30-Jan-2006 19:52Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Come to think of it though, I might bang my head against the wall a couple of times in frustration


I can't help but feel at least partially responsible for the madness that's about to take place...


Back in the saddle!
Post InfoPosted 30-Jan-2006 20:07Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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NowherMan6,



Well, don't be surprised if I call you up in case of an emergency during the "change", given that you don't live too far away. And we might even be able to lure tetratech from his island for this operation (if he dares to enter Joisey land) .

No seriously, you did a great job pointing me to this nice piece. Even if all goes wrong, don't feel guilty at all, I am the one who want to put it in.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 30-Jan-2006 20:12Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
illustrae
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Oh my...
Those are lovely pieces of wood, and I actually think that layout 2 or 5 would allow you to keep the most jungle-look in the tank.
You are clearly already aware of the HUGE ordeal it's going to be to add the wood and arrange the plants around it, but I thought I would add a few ideas and considerations.

When I tried adding a big piece of wood that wouldn't sink, I really hated the idea of using rocks to keep it down. Now, I was starting from scratch, so I had an easier time of it, but I found that a good unobtrusive way of keeping floating wood down was to tie a long bit of fishing line to a heavy-duty suction cup, and stick the suction cup to the bottom of the tank, then tie the long ends of the fishing line around the wood in the position that I wanted it to be in. Now, since you already have your substrate down, I don't know if this is a feasable solution, but it worked really well for me.

I can't imagine that you do much gravel vacuming with all that plant mass in there, but I noticed that a whole lot of fish waste and uneaten food would collect right under the wood in the crevaces where wood meets gravel, and I think this contributed to some water quality issues with my cories that used that wood to hide under. Just something to bear in mind...

Your plants look so great. I hope you feel it's worth all the work you've been putting into this tank.

Hoping that there must be a word for everything I mean...
Post InfoPosted 30-Jan-2006 21:05Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
illustrae,

What a nice entry , thank you so much.

As you already stated, it is probably not a good idea to add a suction cup to this tank. I would have to dig through an average substrate height of about 6 inches, and in the process disturb all the Laterite down there. My tank has currently quite a large group of rocks (which one cannot see anymore) and maybe I can use them gracefully to hold the wood down. Right now it is still soaking in the tub and I will keep it in there as long as I can (means until the wife threatens with divorce ).

Good point with the waste that might collect where wood and gravel meet. I will have to keep that in mind. The problem here is that, at least at the current stage of the tank, I wouldn't even be able to see that area as it is planted so tightly.

And I do feel it is worth putting in all this work. Actually, although it is work, I see it as an exciting part of the hobby. I think I like the road to success as least as much as the success itself. And if all goes wrong, what is the worst that can happen? I start all over again and that would be exciting as well.

Thanks again,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 30-Jan-2006 21:29Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Actually, although it is work, I see it as an exciting part of the hobby. I think I like the road to success as least as much as the success itself. And if all goes wrong, what is the worst that can happen? I start all over again and that would be exciting as well.


That's the one thing all these logs have in common: We never get to the point where we say, OK, looks good, I'll leave it as it is. There's always a new plant to try, another rock or piece of DW to add, another species of fish to look into. It makes it fun and it's very much part of the hobby. And as you correctly pointed out, what's the worst that can happen if things go wrong? You start all over again relive the fun of setting up.


Well, that and divorce, for the married set...

(Hooray for being 23!)


Back in the saddle!
Post InfoPosted 30-Jan-2006 21:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
luvmykrib
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Should be on a T-Shirt


"The hubby/wife said he'd/she'd leave me if I set-up one more fish tank in the house...
Boy am I gonna miss him/her!
Yippee more room for more tanks!"

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Post InfoPosted 30-Jan-2006 22:54Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Good point with the waste that might collect where wood and gravel meet.

Peronally I've never had a problem and I have alot of dw and rock in my tank but then again LF you don't have a grounds crew. "One reaction leads to another"

My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 30-Jan-2006 23:12Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
SheKoi
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good luck with the operation - i understand the wife problems - i've already had to get rid of two tanks but least she let me have my new 72gallon shes always moaning when i spend hours on water changes and aquascapping - they just don't understand. you never know she might even help out

what about the fish? are you going to leave them in?

i always worry about my ottos when i reaquascape you never know where they all are.

can't wait see the pictures of you operation!

www.blooming-brilliant.co.uk
Post InfoPosted 31-Jan-2006 10:53Profile Homepage MSN PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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you never know she might even help out


Yeah, I don't think so .

I will have to keep the fish in the tank, I don't have another container or whatever that could hold 100 fishies for hours (and keep them warm). Plus, it would take me about an hour just to catch them all .

The wood is, oh surprise, not sinking yet. The water in the tub was a light brown so quite a few tannis are leaking out. I gave it a scrub last night and refilled the tub with fresh water. I also observed some of the white fluffy stuff that grows on wood when freshly submersed.

The "Operation" will not start for a while, probably at least not until the weekend following the coming weekend. I am too busy at work right now.

In addition, I am considering of trading about 30 Espei at the LFS. I think I have too many now. They don't really school all that much anymore as no matter where they go some others will be there already . Maybe one of you would like to have them, I sell them for cheap (compared to the $4 they cost at my LFS), but no shipping, pickup only.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 31-Jan-2006 12:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
SheKoi
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just writing a nice little reply and the computer crashes

can't remember what i was writing now.

What you going to exchange you fish for? or do you get credit of some sorts - at my LFS i get half the sale price of the fish - so in your case get about $60 not bad

i'm getting used to my camara now - hopfully i can train my fish to stand still long enough to get a good photo like yours.
i've posted some on my log
http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/threads/12949.4.htm?83#

Have any idea what the snail is? i've had him for years must have come in on a plants.

do you have any problems with snails in the 125G? i try and check all the plants no - but it is hard to do.

just remebered what i was writing not even that informative - when i was soaking my roots i noticed that there were slight little cracks and holes which were filled with air - so by moving the pieces around releasing the air - helpped it sink quicker.

www.blooming-brilliant.co.uk
Post InfoPosted 31-Jan-2006 13:28Profile Homepage MSN PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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When you are rinsing and such are you using hot water? This will help the wood open up and trap in water.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 31-Jan-2006 23:44Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Getting it to stay completely down with no help could take weeks, even months. A rock is the best bet at this point, and can be worked into the aquascape as well. Win-win situation.


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Post InfoPosted 01-Feb-2006 00:26Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks guys,

Yeah, I am refilling the tub with rather hot water in the hope that it will open the pores (just like people's skin).

NowherMan6 - it takes quite a big rock to keep the main piece from floating. Currently I use 2 to hold it down in the tub.

Shekoi - Yeah, I have snails in my 125G, none of which has been added intentionally. There are ramshorn, trumpet, and pond snails. When I do my weekly water change I pick them up when I get the chance, otherwise I leave them alone. I don't think there are too many yet. I think I would like to exchange the 30 Espei for some more Rainbows . It is nice that you get half the selling price, my main LFS is a little cheaper, they sell them for $4 and indicated (and not even that is for sure) that they would give me $1 for each. I might have to inquire at other LFSs and see what they would give me.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 01-Feb-2006 15:24Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Dr. Bonke
 
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Ingo, at least you're getting something for your fish. None of the three LFS that I frequently visit give me anything for fish that I bring them. Last week I had to do a lot of fast talking for them to accept the three angels that I brought them. Getting 1$ a piece is pretty nice IMO.

Your wood will take a long time before it'll sink. Warm water won't make much of a difference I'm afraid, wood pores don't really work that way, they're fixed structures. The best way to do it fast would be to boil the wood. By boiling you make the air expand so much that it will force itself out of the wood, allowing water to enter and occupy those pockets. However, with a piece the size of what you're having there it may be rather difficult to find a big enough pan
Post InfoPosted 01-Feb-2006 16:16Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks Dr. for the input,

Yeah, I sure would need some big kettle to boil that sucker .

But seriously, I actually heard that boiling wood is not a good idea. Supposedly it destroys the cell structure of the wood and the consequence would be a much faster disintegration in the tank.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 01-Feb-2006 16:21Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Dr. Bonke
 
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I suppose boiling wood can do a little bit of damage, but it won't be terribly much. We're talking about dead lignified cells that basically just consist of cell wall material, which is mostly cellulose and lignin. These polymers are very resistant to heat. I've always boiled pieces of bogwood that I've had in my tanks. Some of those I inherited from my grandfather, who had them in his tank for many years, and he had boiled them as well. I've never had a piece fall apart on me or rot. If it indeed does increase the speed of breakdown, then we're still talking about decades I think, longer than any setup of a tank will ever exist.
Post InfoPosted 01-Feb-2006 16:53Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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LF,

If worse comes to worse I have something we can boil it in. You just have to take a trip to MI to do it. By the time you get back home it will be full of air again for sure!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 02-Feb-2006 03:15Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Wings,

Sounds like a plan

Let's try to make this the most expensive piece of driftwood (in $ per pound) ever to be added to a tank. Purchase cost plus a vacation in MI .

I haven't had too much time to check on the wood for 2 days now and when I looked at it last night I saw the the discoloration of the water is rather minimal. That gives me some hope that it has been in the water for a while in its past.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 02-Feb-2006 12:42Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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LF,

Umm yeah... just let me know and I will get the giant pot ready with some fire wood!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 02-Feb-2006 23:00Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Well, without many words,

I did it, for better or worse.

It took 7 hours , quite a few water changes, lots of fiddling with plants, and what not.

QUESTION: I have Narrow leaf Ludwigia, lots of dwarf sags / chain swords, more crypt retrospiralis, Xmas moss, red rubin sword, and a red melon sword still in the water buckets. SHOULD I ADD ANY OF THESE, AND WHERE? I will dispose of the around 10AM tomorrow morning, my time (US East).

Here are 8 pictures, not many words though, I will write more tomorrow. No1, tank before change:

Attached Image:

Before



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Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 06:23Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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No2, Quite a few plants have been removed, the water quality is going downhill:

Attached Image:

First Round of Plant Removal



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Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 06:24Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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No3, A lot of plants gone by now, I am worried how the fish will handle this soup:

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More Plants Gone



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No4, Only the Apons and Cyperus are left, a few vacuuming sessions later.

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Little Left



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No5, The wood has been added, took quite a while and many curses until it was in place:

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Introducing the Wood



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No6, Partial water change to up the water quality, filter was also rinsed (not too much though, bacteria - I know). The Apon had to go to, didn't like it anymore:

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Water Change



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No7, Tank is refilled, more rocks are added. Do you see all the Espei :

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Hardware in Place



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
No8, and last for now. The tank is fully planted, except if you have some info and then I could add it tomorrow. I am intending to try my luck with hair grass in the front again, but I will have to get it first. I will go to sleep now, let me know what you think (even if you don't like it )

Ingo

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All Done



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Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 06:33Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Wow, I love the new drift wood and rock formations. Keep us posted on the tank.

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Hey, looks awesome. Hope your fish enjoy the new scenery.

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upikabu
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EditedEdited by upikabu
The driftwoods look great, Ingo. I prefer the new look, much cleaner. I think you need more red plants though - the macaranda look too prominent as the only red plants. Maybe put the ludwidgia (I assume those were the reddish plants in the middle in the "before" pic) on the back right side (behind the driftwood & anubias).

I can't remember what your red swords look like, but I would try putting one on the far left corner, in front of the lone rock (instead of the few grassy plants - cyperus?). Maybe plant the dwarf sags on the front right corner, in front of the rock?

Anyways, looking good!

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-P
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Hey Ingo, it sure is a lovely piece of wood, and I think you've found the best orientation for is as well. I love the way the roots are sticking upwards at odd angles, but why did you put it so right in the middle? It looks good, but in my opinion it would have looked even better if you had put it slightly off-center to the left. Now it forces your eyes to the center of the tank, and leaves the sides a little as an after thought. If you move it a bit to the left it will create a focal point on that side and leaves the right side of the tank open for other interesting stuff. Nice work in any case, in a couple of weeks it should be possible to remove that big rock, or alter its orientation a little
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Thanks everybody for the input

Paulus - Thanks for the drawings and your ideas. Here are the problems I have with the options you gave me:

- The red rubin is currently 3/4 of the tank height and takes up quite some ground real estate as well. I think it would be too big in the left front (twice as big as you were drawing it). The plants in front of that rock are sags.
- The Ludwigia could look nice there, but a) the tank is not deep enough for a group of plants behind the Anubias in the right back, b) the plants would get shaded by the Retrospiralis and slowly die off, and c) I thought I try an all green (besides a few wendtiis that one cannot see in the total shot) with one shockingly red area (silly me).
- The sags in my tank tend to grow rather big and would quickly make the rock (on the right) behind them meaningless and hidden.

I will take a closer look this morning and see what can be done.


Dr. - Grrr, you are right, the wood is in the middle. I didn't intend to make the branch group the center point of the layout, the group to its right is supposed to be the center. Ohlala, what to do? It is impossible for me to move it now, except if I am going to uproot quite a few plants again. Maybe I can wait until the wood stays down by itself and then take action, getting it in place was almost an act of violence .

The idea was that the pearl grass on the right of the wood would create a lower valley towards the Cyperus in the back. I guess by adding the Macandra to the left I managed to make this group almost meaningless, although I put a lot of detail in it (will show closeups later today - have to make the pictures first).

Maybe I go for tetratech's random chaos layout (not that he has that, but he mentioned Amano has something like that).

It never ends

Ingo


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good job -hope you had fun

doesn't your tank make that bogwood look small? in the tub it looked huge now can hardly see it.

how long did it take you in total?

i'd let the plants you have in recover and spread out again before deciding what else to end - but do need something in the forground.

did you catch any of the espei to sell on?

are your ottos ok didn't throw any out by accident?

Karl.

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bensaf
 
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The wood looks good. It is a little centered but if it's major work to move it I wouldn't bother.

The Cyperus is a beautiful plant I'd probably prefer it behind the rocks but again if it's a headache to move It loks good where it is.

The Macrandra does look out of place mainly because it's out on it own. If it had more green behind and beside it, that wouldn't be so noticeable. It may work better in the spot where the pearlgrass is , but then you'd have to keep it a bit lower so it doesn't block the view of the Cyperus.

Keep the Rubin. I'd but it at the far right beside between the Cyperus and the Retro and behind the big Anubias there. Alternately it you move the the R.Macrandra put the Rubin where that is now. It'll balance out the reds a bit.

You are going to need a big bold species of stem plant that will make a statement and anchor the scope. Ideally that will go at either the location where the MAcrandra is or the location where the cyperus is. Depend which way you want to go. I've mentioned a few species before - Aromatica, Ammania, Stellata Broadleaf, Ludwigia Cuba. Something nig and brassy that you can build around.

The front left needs Crypts preferably something like Red Wendtii. The color and leaf shape will balance out the grassy sags etc.

Did you chuck all the moss ? The wood could do with some aging.

That part where the big rock is hold ing down the wood - fill it and cover up the structure with Narrow Leaf Fern or Wendelov. Again the darker more horizontal look will offset the vertical grassy types. Alternately a big dark Anubias Coffeefolia.

It's on the way. A few small details needed. Need to make the forground more interesting . I'm sure I'll think of more later.



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Bensaf,

Thanks boss

- yup, moving the wood is a PITA. The wife had to close the door to the basement so the kids don't hear me cursing
- The Cyperus, after all this time that it is in the tank already, has just gotten established (takes a long time to do so, as you mentioned way back when I got it). So it has to stay
- Macandra in front of the Cyperus sounds like a plan, I will give it a go in 30 min (lights on for fishies)
- Red Rubin in the spot where the Macandra is now sounds good too, I will add some more green grasses (Retro, I guess) besides (behind) it as it is not big enough to fill the whole spot
- Bold Stems: I still have 3 of the crippled Althernanthera that I couldn't identify. They are currently in front of the Macandra and invisible as they blend right in. Maybe I can make them grow better, now that they actually get propper light
- The front left has a crypt wendtii, red . It just doesn't show in the picture as it is too small (maybe 10 leaves) because it had been covered by dwarf sags / chain swords in the past (and Glosso).
- Yup, chucked all the moss. I think the wood looks great without it and I have enough of putting it on rocks. Major pain on pruning because all hardscape cannot easily removed for that purpose (big mess each time). I found moss in all plants from pruning cuttings
- There is not much space left in front of that giant rock to keep the wood in place. I might have to wait to finalize that aread until this rock can be replaced by a smaller rock.
- Foreground more intersting: Given that I place the Macandra in the spot where the Pearl Grass is now I will use that to plant a "lawn" of it in the front . Might not work too well, but I think it is worth a try. If not, I thought about hair grass.

Thanks again Bensaf,

Ingo


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Shekoi,

Sorry, only now saw your entry, thanks

It took SEVEN hours, from 10 AM to 5PM. I know this would have been the perfect opportunity to catch the Espei, but there was no time and I also have to check with the LFS first to see if and when they would like them. I thought about it, but I had to focus on one task at a time .

About the Otos: yeah, I got very worried as I found only 5 out of 6. I thought one might be in a plant bucket, but eventually found him/her munching on a Cyperus leaf (the only plant not removed from the tank during the process. So, all are accounted for .

I agree on no major moves at this time (except the ones mentioned above), besides the fact that I got to hear it from the wife anyway as I neglected my parential duties for yet another day.

And I agree on the foreground as well

Thanks,

Ingo


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LF,

So this is what you were going all day yesterday Remind me how you got your wife to allow another Saturday of tank work...


My comments aren't as rich and plentiful as the others, but my two points:

1.) Just to echo the need for different stem plant groupings - it seems there's so much grassiness going on there, some different leaf shapes in prominent spots I think would help out

2.) IMO the wood is fine where it is. On the one hand, I can see what others are saying - it feels like if you pulled it to the left 5 inches it would be so much better. But after looking at it the hardscape structure itself - the wood plus rocks - is off center, so it doesn't look awkward. My eye tends to see it the latter way now, so it looks good in my book


Back in the saddle!
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K,

Updated as discussed above. No more replanting today, the wife calls on my childcare duties .

Here is the tank,is it better now? Detail shots much later in the day (evening). Can you see some fishies ?

Ingo

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Latest Update



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Hey Little_Fish,

My fish reaction is WOW, what a difference. Now you have a good base to work with and you could fine-tune from here.
Yeah the DW grouping could have been alittle more off center, but I also believe you could work with it where it is. Yes more red would be nice, with just one red grouping it might pull your eye to that spot and conflict with the wood.

I have to give you alot of credit. It must have been difficult to tear the tank down, but it definitely paid off.

My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 17:25Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Sorry last one was quick. Wife was screaming dinner ready !

- Bold Stems: I still have 3 of the crippled Althernanthera that I couldn't identify. They are currently in front of the Macandra and invisible as they blend right in. Maybe I can make them grow better, now that they actually get propper light


Reineckii is a nice plant, but I find it too bold and dark to be used in big quantities. Looks best behind bright greenery poking ouy the top in a tight bunch -dramtic. But needs to be tall.
Yep 2 reds together never works.

- The front left has a crypt wendtii, red . It just doesn't show in the picture as it is too small (maybe 10 leaves) because it had been covered by dwarf sags / chain swords in the past (and Glosso).

It'll grow taller with more light. Get more to fill out that far left front area. Maybe mix in some green types or different shapes like Willissi or Becketti. A big grove.

- There is not much space left in front of that giant rock to keep the wood in place. I might have to wait to finalize that aread until this rock can be replaced by a smaller rock.

That's why I was suggesting a fern. No need to worry about space.Plonk it on the wood or between the wood and rock. It will hide the fact that the rock is holding the wood down, so you can forget about it. The narrow leaf will give a nice horzontal shape to counter all the vertical grasses. Ferns are great for giving a sense of structure and depth. Having a couple of specimens of about the same size but at different heights gives a wonderful look.You can have one bunch where the rock is holding down the wood and then another bunch higher up -just wedge it in the v where a branch splits for example.

- Foreground more intersting: Given that I place the Macandra in the spot where the Pearl Grass is now I will use that to plant a "lawn" of it in the front . Might not work too well, but I think it is worth a try. If not, I thought about hair grass.

Foregrounds are very hard to too (probably why so many resort to the simple carpet).
What I mean is a few smaller structures to counter the larger main wood and rocks. Adds depth and interest.
What you've got at the moment is plant-small gap-rock-small gap-plant-small gap etc. Bigger but fewer gaps would work better.Tighten things up at the fron, don't be afraid of a few big open areas.
Example:you've got a few anubias scattered around. I'd be tempted to bring them all together in one area near the front and build a mound of them (you can use small rocks to support)maybe a few small river rocks scttered in front or to the side of this planting. Intersting little features like this with open ground between them will give added interest, a sense of order and depth.

Take a while look at the tank and try to visualize little areas of interest you can create.




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Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 17:34Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Just saw the new pic. Much better The macrandra works better with the green behind it and the rubin balance the color. Looks much more co-hesive now.


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I LOVE the tank's new look. It is not so much a jungle anymore. I like bensaf's advice on the anubias, it seems to have much more impact when grouped together rather than scattered. As things grow out again, more areas of interest will appear as well I think. Looks good! If it's alright with you I'd like to send before and after pics to my cousin, she wants a fish tank with live plants after she moves and is collecting ideas. I've sent her the link to this site and shown her your thread as well. All she had to say was WOW!

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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Weekly Tank Update - Week 19

Well, the title is rather wrong as I am not going to post past and current full tank shots, the events of this weekend overshadow any normal weekly update by far. The changes performed are dramatic and their outcome makes me feel like I want to introduce you to more details of the new layout. I think that a total shot (you can see it on the previous page of this log) does not reveal the details that this design offers.

But one thing about the general change: Plants that have been removed from the design are - Ludwigia Repens, Xmas Moss, Apons, and the Red Melon Sword, good by .

Now to the entries between my last one and this:

tetratech - Thanks my friend, an almost unconditional compliment from one of my scaping buddies is a rare event, I will have a beer in your honor. Yes, it was mentally very difficult for me to tear down the tank, I honestly can say that I was scared and very worried that I will create nothing but a big mess.

NowherMan6 - Yeah, that was what I did all day yesterday . How did I manage that my wife gives me the time for that - Well, I am sure I will have to pay her back for it one way or another. The start were my child duties today, but I am certain that many more chores will follow.

Bensaf - As you suggested, I will take my time to evaluate additional options. Right now I am just glad the tank is still running.

luvmykrib - Thanks for the compliments. Sure you can send the pictures to your cousin, with a few conditions of course: a) no additional publishing and b) she will have to sign a contract that she is going to read the whole thread which will be followed by a multiple choice quiz about it (just kidding, at least for point b). About the Anubias mountain (and this counts for Bensaf as well): I think you overestimate the size of the tank. Each one of my Anubias takes up quite some significant real estate. If I would put these 5 together I would think that I need at least a quarter of the entire tank just for them. Even if it is a good idea, it would have to wait as I am tired of major changes (for this week).

Anyway, hold your breath as the next 20 entries will be tank pictures. I hope I will not bore you to death.

Thanks for all the support, I could have done it without you folks.

Ingo


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The first picture was taken during the replant. It shows the enormous and entangled root system of the Crypt Retrospiralis. It took me a good 20 minutes just to separate individual plants from this block.

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Retrospiralis Mess



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Another shot from the replant. Can you say Espei ?

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Loads of Espei



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Here is another photo from yesterday, showing the Espei Autobahn (German highway, in case you don't know what that is - no speed limit ).

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Autobahn



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Post InfoPosted 06-Feb-2006 03:01Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Now a 3 picture series of the tank, just to show some more details and their relationship to the tank. Here is the left side. I bet you that you cannot distinguish between Retrospirals and Narrow leaf Sags, they are mixed with each other. Also, the new position of the Red Rubin Sword is shown.

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Left Side



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Here is the middle, with Sword, Star Grass, and Cyperus in the back.

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Middle Shot



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Here is the right, with its new focus plant – Rotala Macandra.

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Right Shot



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An even closer look at the center, with the wood and the Jersey Star Grass (right tetratech? )

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Center



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And a close-up of the Red Rubin Sword, in front of it you can see the 3 saved Althernanthera stems, I just cannot let go of them.

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Red Rubin



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Post InfoPosted 06-Feb-2006 03:04Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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All the way in front of the Sword is this lineup, some Pearl Grass, 2 Crypt Wendtiis, and a sag.

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Front Part



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Here you see more of the right front corner. I gave the Isoetes Lacustris more of a visible position. More Pearl Grass and 2 Green Wendtiis complete that section.

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Here is the Crypt Wendtii in the left corner, actually - I guess it is a green one. Maybe it will color up now that it gets some light.

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Front Left



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A close-up of the Rotala Macandra group.

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Macandra



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A close-up of the 3 saved Althernanthera stems.

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Althernanthera



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The Anubias Barteri on the left, you can see that it is getting another flower (again). See the bubbles? I observed that all flowers of the Anubias do that before they open. I find it interesting as such a behavior is usually associated with an injured part of a plant.

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Anubias Barteri



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A close-up of the Isoetes Lacustris.

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Isoetes



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For all Oto fans, a nice shot of an Oto inspecting the new driftwood.

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Oto 1



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And here again, I guess there must be food on it already.

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Oto 2



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And for the Harlequin fans, here are two colored up males fighting for dominance (in front of the Jersey Star Grass).

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Who's the Man?



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And here is the winner. Compare his color to the female on the left.

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I am the Boss



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Last but not least, yes, babies survived the mess as well .

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bensaf
 
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Each one of my Anubias takes up quite some significant real estate. If I would put these 5 together I would think that I need at least a quarter of the entire tank just for them.


So ?

If you don't mind half the real estate been taken up by tall grassy plants why worry about 1/4 been taken up by broad darker plants to counteract ?


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If you don't mind half the real estate been taken up by tall grassy plants


Yeah, but not in one spot

I will think about it, maybe sometime I am ready for this

Thanks Bensaf,

Ingo


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EditedEdited by Wingsdlc
Wow! I go home for the weekend and this is what happens! LF! I really like the DW. Personaly I don't find a problem with the placement. Are you going to re grow everything back into a jungle again?

One more thing! I can easly see the rock on the back left side being eaten by your plants once again. Maybe a taller rock there?

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Dang you have a ton of fish in there!

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NowherMan6
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LF,

Just wanted to say great shots! Were they taken by the Tamron? Whatever you used, the texture of the DW is beautiful in that first oto shot.





Oh, and the oto itself is nice too


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Wings -

Thanks . No, I don't think I will regrow a jungle, at least not on purpose. Hopefully I catch better times when pruning is needed. Good idea about a larger rock on the left, I will see what I can do (without taking up too much ground cover). Yup, loads of fishies .

NowherMan6 -

Were the shots taken by the Tamron? No, they were taken by me . Yes, I think all really close close-ups were taken with the Tamron. I also love the texture of the wood in that Oto shot, this was the main reason this picture made it onto the site. Thanks for the compliment.

Ingo


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I think the new wood looks great, even if it is a bit centered. I think that the really great rock placement counters that a bit. All those rasboras look so cool! I'm disappointed that you got rid of the apons, but I'm well aware how much space they take up, so I understand why you took them out. I cant wait to see the pearlgrass fill in a bit, and that stargrass looks amazing! The rotala macandra really draws the eye, but as pretty much the only red plant in view, it looks a little out of place. I hope your alteranthera bounces back to add a little more pink to the aquascape.
Beautiful re-scaping!

Hoping that there must be a word for everything I mean...
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illustrae,

Thanks for the compliments. Sorry to dissapoint you on the Apon front, I just didn't really like it anymore. The yellowish/greenish leaves in bunches didn't make an impression on me. It had a nice flower once in a while though .

Thanks again,

Ingo


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LF,
The wood really looks nice, I especially like the shot that you reference the Jersey Stargrass. I just really like the way the stargrass looks with the wood.

One thing I did notice if I may .
I noticed one pick that shows a large size vertical rock on the left side that looks like it's very close to the front glass. Is that there as part of the design or simply to hold down the DW temporarily, becuase it appears to be too big for that position so close to the glass. Just curious.

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EditedEdited by weird22person
Wow. I just read the whole tread. It only took about a month.
Its a nice looking tank and i cant wait for it to fill in after the replant. Im surprised you removed the Xmas Moss because you seamed so concerned about its battle with algae.
One thing i did notice is that there is no movement on the bottom. Maybe a few cories?
Keep up the good work.
Now to tetratech's log...see you in about a month.

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tetratech:

One thing I did notice if I may


- I knew that the unconditional compliment phase would be short lived

I assume you mean the rock at the left of the driftwood trunk. Hm, it is there to hide the cut of the branch. This was the only position the wood really fit in nicely and it left the cut wide in the open and close to the glass. The rock hides that "unnatural" looking aspect of the driftwood. Remember when I had all my rocks further back? Within weeks you couldn't even see them anymore and I think that once things will grow a little this one will be less visible, although not completely hidden (I want to show my rocks).

weird22person - How brave of you
Now all you have to do is to keep up with the thread (and tetratechs, and NowherMan6s, and Dr. Bonkes, and all the others ). Cories are nice, but I think in the long run there will not be too much open space on the substrate. I will have to think about it. Thanks for the suggestion.

Ingo


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tetratech
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I want to show my rocks

If you must

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NowherMan6
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If you must





Come on tetra, keep it PG-13 in here. There are children about...


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tetratech
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uh, nowher I'm referring to LF's big rock near the front of the glass

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of course! Whoops, my bad... that's 4 years of all boys hgihschool talking there...


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AAAnyway,

Do you guys have a better idea on how I could make the cut section of the driftwood not be visible, I am open for suggestions.

I think you can see the area about 2 pages back on pictures of the tank during the redo.

Thanks,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 07-Feb-2006 19:26Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
SheKoi
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doesn't a rock cover the cut end?

in the last picture page 51 i think - you can't see the cut

could you bury it more in the substrate.

i have the same problem with my bogwood, but i'm going to plant loads small plants right close to the cut end, hopefully hiding it.

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luvmykrib
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How about a small mound of anubias? Attached to smaller rocks and the piece of driftwood itself. I'm seeing the smaller form of nana and petite, or another nice plant I use for concealing things is java fern windelov, or both in a small mound. Then you could appease bensaf and conceal the cut end at the same time!

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Appeasing bensaf is always a good idea

Below is a picture of the area in question.

There is no way it could be buried, that would have to be a huge mountain of gravel.

Doing the mount thing soooooo close to the front will create similar problems than the rock does right now. A mountain of plants really really close to the front glass.

Ingo

Attached Image:

What to do?



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NowherMan6
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I'm confused, isn't that part of the DW already blocked by a rock?


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luvmykrib
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I suppose there's no way of moving it back slightly, just enough that then you could conceal it with a smaller rock with some petite attached? I'm not thinking a HUGE mountain of anubias, rather a small tumble of anubias.

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tetratech
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I'm confused, isn't that part of the DW already blocked by a rock?

I think LF is trying to find alternatives to the rock. I mentioned it was too close and too big to the front glass.


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tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
O.K. This is my first reaction and it will keep all the nice work you've done intact.

Cut that thick base that's sticking up in the air (I mean water) on an angle and then take the same rock you had that was standing up, but now lay it down on the cut angle and plant around it. If it's laying down toward the back of the tank it will be easier to soften with ground cover etc. and will look more natural.



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luvmykrib
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First attempt at this painting on pictures thing so bear with me, here's sort of what I'm saying.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c56/luvmypetz/DriftwoodDilemma.jpg
This gives a bit of an idea of what I am seeing, I'm no artist, and this would also require a bit of space to do.

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NowherMan6
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Oh, I see. I actually like the big rock close to the grass. It's unusual and certainly presents some opportunites for aquascaping with small plants. If I may repost one of LF's pics (below) I would surround the base with HC, and also have the HC creeping up the side between the rock and wood, blending them together. I've seen it used vertically like this before, plus as discussed in Chaos' thread, HC is a slow grower, not like glosso. Just my opinion, of course



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You folks are cracking me up.

Well, let's see:

- tetratech: no way I remove the wood right now to saw off part of it, although the thought has crossed my mind. It took me 30 min to put it in place, and that was without any plants in the tank.
- NowherMan6: planting around the rock might be an option, I will have to see.
- luvmykrib: Sounds good, but this would be really Nana Petite then. How about a small Java Fern instead, maybe even attached to the cut directly (if I can figure out how to tie it on under water )? Some crypts might look nice as well, anything that doesn't grow too tall and would not cover the plants behind it from the viewer.

Thanks for trying ,

Ingo


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luvmykrib
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I think that was one of my suggestions, to attach a plant right to the cut end.
I use a slipknot for hard to tie things, it may be tricky but I think doable. Or if you can't tie the plant on, then a smaller rock with the plant on and that should also do the trick.
Yes I meant petite, I also am very fond of java fern (I've had to be) and both are prunable as well, so you can keep them smaller.

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tetratech
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no way I remove the wood right now to saw off part of it, although the thought has crossed my mind. It took me 30 min to put it in place, and that was without any plants

I guess looking at a pic, it's hard to appreciate how hard it would be to take the one piece of wood out.

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luvmykrib
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It's also hard to tell just how close to the glass the branches are. Pictures tend to have no depth perspective to them on the flat computer screen.

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Post InfoPosted 07-Feb-2006 21:35Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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luvmykrib,

Yeah, a small rock with the plant on it sounds good too.

tetratech,

I agree, it looks so easy to remove the wood and put it pack in. But its depth is as deep as the tank, its height almost as high as the tank, parts have plants woven into it (Star Grass and Pearl Grass), and other plants (like Anubias) are planted really close to it. No doubt I would have to replant at least some of them.

I will try to take a picture that shows it from a different perspective, but it will have to wait until tomorrow night as it will be too late today when I get home and too early tomorrow when I leave the house again.

Really, thanks for all the effort in helping making the tank (even) better.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 07-Feb-2006 21:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Then you could appease bensaf and conceal the cut end at the same time!


Hmmmm...... that's because I'm usually right ?

Ram some Java Fern - wendelov or Narrow Leaf in the gap between the wood and the gravel. Job done, no worries about shading etc.


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luvmykrib
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There's always a simpler solution than we can see, probably because we're so close to our own problem and need some perspective. As the other plants begin to fill in it won't be as obvious, but sticking anything in front of it will help to hide it for now.

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If you ever do deside to move it you could trim the edges to look more natural. Go at the thing with a saw and some heavy sandpaper.
And i see what you mean about keeping up with the thread. Dont you people have better things to do?

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Well I should do my homework but I am not so sure that would be better....

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As promised (although a little late), here is a picture of the rock to hide the stomp from a different angle. Just so you get a feeling of how close it is to the glass. The Crypt Wendtii leaf tip is touching the glass.

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Close Encounter



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Post InfoPosted 10-Feb-2006 01:00Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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And because tetratech and I had a discussion about "how to plant Anubias", here is a close-up showing how I root my Nana in the substrate.

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Nana in Substrate



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And, so we don't forget these guys, the Pearls are doing great in the tank

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Pearls Together



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And another one where you can see that the males' throat is turning orange. He is becoming a man , I can't wait for the first bubble nest.

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Pearls Again



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Post InfoPosted 10-Feb-2006 01:04Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
SheKoi
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great photos again LF

did you say your bogwood was off ebay?

i'm after one that looks like roots for mangrove look, in my 40g, thinking of not having africansi just don't know!

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luvmykrib
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Ingo, the rock IS very close to the glass. It will be tricky trying to figure out how to disguise the cut end without getting too close to the glass.

The gourami's look gorgeous as well, you take great pictures!



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EditedEdited by Wingsdlc
We all should take a trip there and pick out what we want. That is really sweet! Think he would ship to the US?

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All,

Thanks again for the comments on the pictures. Although I sometimes think that I make good pictures there are other time when I feel more like the opposite is true. I have not yet been able to even once capture a larger group of the Espei in one photo. Either it is out of focus, or over-exposed, or under-exposed, or the fish don't show because there is too much green around them .

SheKoi - That is some pile of wood, 2 tons, wow. But they all look very chunky. Yes, I got mine of eBay, with the help of NowherMan6 who pointed my to this particular item (thank again).

Ingo


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NowherMan6
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Sorry to sound like a broken record, and please let me know if you want me to stop with the photography stuff, but there are a few ways of getting around the situation you describe regarding capturing the espei school. First set camera to ISO 1600. Next, and most importantly, when taking a shot of a large school you need depth of field. Camera blur is one thing, but with many lenses you don't realize how shallow DOF is at the max aperture (2.8 in the case of the Tamron) I can tell with many of your close-up pictures that either you or the camera is using the max aperture - part of the subject is in focus, but another part less than an inch away is blurred, this is the tell-tale sign. Schools don't line up one right behind the other, they are all different distances from the camera so you need to use a smaller aperture to capture all of them in reasonable focus. Set aperture to 5.6 minimum, see if you can get away with that, otherwise try f/8 or even f/11 (may be too slow shutter speed, try anyway) That should at least help keep them all in focus and the high ISO should help you stop the motion. As for exposure issues, you can try spot metering, or use center-weighted. Using too wide an area will throw you off.


Regarding the wood, it's interesting that they say it's for show only, something to that effect, not specifying aquarium use. I wonder if it's not aquarium safe?


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tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
I guess I have to add an SLR camera to my list. My fastest ISO setting is 400 on my Canon S2 IS. I guess I can get good pics but I would have to put an incredible amount of light over the tank. Like 100wpg.

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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
please let me know if you want me to stop with the photography stuff


PLEASE DON'T STOP

If it wouldn't be for your "photography stuff" then I wouldn't make the pictures that I do. I think you are right on with your evaluation of how I take pictures. I know I have 1/1600 and probably the 2.8 as well. I will try to somehow change to the settings you suggest. As I said in some other content, I am by definition actually a lazy guy and as such haven't even managed yet to take the Tamron instructions out of the package .

Maybe I have some time this weekend to actually focus on getting a school in focus () .

Thanks,

Ingo

EDIT: tetratech - Can't find the smiley with the sunglasses anymore, otherwise I would have posted 5 in a row right here (only see one that indicates cool, but that is not the case with 100wpg )


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NowherMan6
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EditedEdited by NowherMan6
Thanks I'll bring up the photo stuff sparingly, how about that?


Maybe I have some time this weekend to actually focus on getting a school in focus




Well, you'll be stuck indoors for a few hours on Saturday through Sunday with the snow storm that's coming our way, so you'll have time to play around... as long as it doesn't take you another 12 hours


p.s. - tetra, you've done a great job taking photos with the camera you have, you need not move up unless you really want to


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tetra, you've done a great job taking photos with the camera you have, you need not move up unless you really want to

Thanks nowher, I just have trouble getting those really close clear ones.

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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
I just have trouble getting those really close clear ones


That's not the camera, that's a talent I have



Ingo


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That's not the camera, that's a talent I have

But of course

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Hows that?

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weird22person,

indicates cool, but 100wpg are more of the opposite

Maybe would be good to describe the feeling of 100wpg.


Anyway, I took 30 shots with all kinds of camera settings, to almost no avail. In this picture (the only one half way descent) you can get an idea about the fish load.

Ingo

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Top Level Dwellers



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Ingo, the rock covering the cut end doesn't look too bad at all, as the plants in and around it fill in it will start to look like it serves more of a scaping purpose than a camoflage purpose. The tank looks great! The espei autoban looks like a fun place to be!

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The espei autoban looks like a fun place to be!


Well, I have to say that it reminds me more of rush hour traffic going into Manhattan than the times when I raced over the German Autobahn with 140mph .

Yeah, from this angle the rock doesn't look all that bad, you are right luvmykrib.

Overall I have a feeling that my replanting concluded in too little of a plant mass as I experience enhanced growth of thread / staghorn algae, not too wild though but enough to make me think about it. I might go out and try to find some additional plants, chances are I will not get anything locally as all the common plants seem too boring.

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BTW the rock in the back left is already going away....

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Wings,

I know

I might try to put a bigger one in during this afternoons water change. But thanks for reminding me .

I actually see a similar event happening to the stone on the far right so I might replace it as well, if I find a more suitable one in my collection .

Thanks,

Ingo


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I think one of the biggest things you need to look out for is keeping your hardwear visible from some sort of angle. If you don't then whats the point of even having it there.

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Wings,

That's so true. You may remember my last layout (up to a week ago) and there were about 10 rocks in the tank. Did you see any? Maybe one or two, the rest was consumed by the plants. And the only two real large ones were covered in Xmas Moss.

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Very nice pic LF. Tank looks great and it hasn't even filled in yet.

Went to one of my LFS to buy some more cardinals to start my own autobahn, but they only had tiny ones. I was going to take a chance with the UV and all, but when I looked closer at the tank I noticed ICH. Even with th UV don't want to go there.

I did come away with Two Cherry Shrimps and one plant. I believe it is a Rotala wallichii.




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Cool tetratech,

Can't wait to see pictures of the Cherry Shrimp, if they ever show themselves, that is .

And good move on NOT getting the cardinals, why risk it

Ingo


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A few details of todays water change. Full shots will follow tomorrow in the weekly update.

Some of the following 6 pictures will have questions, so I would appreciate if you could read the text as well

No1: Water Change - the best time to get a group of Espei in focus

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Espei Gang



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Two of my 3 and a half Crypt Lucens. I have them since over two months and they used to be located right in front of the Apons (invisible from the front of the tank).

They haven't done much in the meantime, maybe gained one or two leaves. Is that normal? Now they are to the right of the big wood group more towards the foreground.

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Crypt Lucens



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I went to the LFS today to check on some plants and to see if they would like my Espei. Unfortunately it was very crowded (every Saturday that is the case) and on top of it I saw a tank with juvenile Espeis. I have to say that these don't compare to mine at all. Mine are much fuller and more colored up, which shouldn't be too much of a surprise given that these in the LFS have been shipped from Asia and must be very stressed on top of it. In short, I didn't ask if they want mine as I guess they have enough at the moment.

Anyway, I got this plant. They only had one of them, Crypt Lutea. It came in a small pot with the wool and after removing the latter I planted it as one unit close to a rock. It is just a little shaded (not much) by an Anubias Barteri. Should I have attempted to separate it? Bad spot?

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Crypt Lutea



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The other plant I bought was a small piece of Narrow Leaf Java Fern ( $ 6 ). I just squeezed it in a gap between the rock and the driftwood. Bad idea?

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Narrow Leaf Java Fern



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Here is another shot of it from a little further away (to see it more in perspective to the scape)

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Narrow Leaf Java Fern II



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Last but not least, another Pearl shot. This time their pattern blends right into the air bubbles that rise in the tank shortly after the water change.

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Pearls



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tetratech
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Nice pics LF. I guess most of the young espei survived "Extreme Makeover"

I like the Crypt Lutea. Looks like a good spot.
It's amazing how slim the plant pickings are at the stores.
It's funny to see some highlight plants in the stores that are under lowlight knowing that if they aren't sold within a few weeks there pretty much dead.

I was alittle surprised one of my LFSs had a 125g in the back with only plants in it. In neat rows with two coralife fixtures on top. This was the store I got the riccia from a few weeks ago. When I went back it was all gone and I noticed alot of it in a mess floating with some duckweed and lots of algae all over it.

I'll be posting some pics later tonite after my water change and planting of the Rotala wallichii, but I think I have to renew my premium membership. (As long as my wife lets me)

I'm gonna say a prayer and drink a few brews hoping our tanks don't lose power tonite.

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I am with you tetratech,

How much are we supposed to get? 6 to 12 inches, right?

Snow, in case the others don't know what we are talking about.

Ingo


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weird22person
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Same deal in Massachusetts. 8-16 inches is conservative they said. I just hope for your fishes sake it isn't icy down in Jersey. Good luck!

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Ok first things first...
The first crypt question. Crypts are substrait eaters and they might need some type of tab fert and maybe more light?

Secondly....
Do you guys get lake effect snow? Where I go to school here in more centeral Mi we get some but its nothing like what I get back home right by the lake. Must of my fellow students don't understand..

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LITTLE_FISH
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Sunday Morning, 7 AM:

So far we had maybe 10 inches, but it keeps on coming down . It is supposed to be over by mid afternoon, I think.

Anyway - Wings: Crypts are (for the most) low to medium light plants and don't require high light. My substrate has a layer of Laterite and also should have accumulated enough mulm to keep the Crypts happy.

On other notes: I added the Rainbows from the QT to the main tank last night. Here they are all bagged up:

Attached Image:

Rainbows coming in



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Soon after release the fish were still a little shy, here is an Espei checking on the new tankmate (male):

Attached Image:

Check out the new Dude



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The same happened to the girls. Somehow quite a few Espei huddled behind this one for a while. Maybe she got so stressed that she dropped eggs?

Attached Image:

The female being investigated



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But soon after, the Rainbows became more dominant and stated to chase older Espei away and seriously went after young Espeis as a food source. No kidding when one of you (I think it was Wings) said that they are fry control.

Well, here is a picture of the Male Pearl who made sure that even the Rainbows know who is the real boss in the tank. He frequently swam up to them, not in a threatening fashion, but making sure they get out of his way when he comes even closer:

Attached Image:

The Boss



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Here are two males starting to explore. See the one with the missing dorsal fin piece? I wonder how he lost that part - I am sure he would be able to tell quite a story. I mentioned much earlier that he had the missing part since I got him, it seems to be too severe to grow back. My handicapped male

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2 Dwarf Neon Rainbows



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And here is a close-up of a female Rainbow:

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Female Dwarf Neon Rainbow



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And lastly - A male

I think he is the leader

Attached Image:

Male Dwarf Neon Rainbow



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Well don't know how much snow we got, but let's put it this way I had to dig a path 6am this morning so my dog could do his business.

Anyway nice pics LF. Glad the rainbows finally made it to the show.

BTW - Do you put your lights on earlier on the weekend? Just curious since your pics are from this morning.


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tetratech,

The pics are from last night just before lights off. It just took me until this morning to filter out 7 pictures from the 80 that I made (and trim and resize them).

Ingo


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The Yard Fish are having fun in the snow, and breakfast is served

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Yard Fish



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EditedEdited by Wingsdlc
Isn't it crazy how many pictures we have to take to get a few good ones?

Rainbows are looking nice! I am not sure if I said that they would be fry control but I am sure that they will help matters. Right now I have quite a few guppy fry in with my Rainbows but I also feed my fish pretty well.. Do your pearls do anything to them? Are they schooling nice? Mine hang pretty tight. Makes me a happy guy.

Edit:

I know that crypts don't need super light and you do have a good sub down but maybe a lot of the good stuff has been taken up already.

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Just popping in. Great pics LF. I LOVE the snow pic, gorgeous. Keep 'em coming

As for the crypts, they grow slow no matter what. From what i've read parva is by far the slowest, wendtii is like hygro in comparison.. the others are also slow and fickle. It may just be that it hasn't gotten settled since the replant. Maybe it'll take a few weeks? (by which time you'll be ready to uproot the whole damn thing over again )

Off to pay attention to the snow and my visiting gf now...


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Weekly Tank Update - Week 20

This week hasn't seen much change from last weekend. Fertilizers have been added as usual, which may or may not have been a good idea. During this weekends water change I notices quite an increase in thread (short) and even Staghorn Algae, the first one in particular on the back glass (and a few plants) and both on the Cyperus Helferi.

I added two plants to the tank, as suggested (but still small) a small Narrow Leaf Java Fern and a Crypt. Also, on special request by Wings, I replaced the rock on the left with a bigger one .

The Dwarf Neon Rainbows have been added to the tank last night and when checking on them this morning they were not schooling. Instead, each male was chasing after a female, and at least one of them seemed receptive to the male (the one I believe is the leader). I don't think I will have more babies though at this time as the tank is not jungle like enough to provide sufficient hiding space for tiny fry.

The weekly updates are only 5 pictures, as I showed a lot of details already on the previous page and top of this one. Now I only provide a short trip through the tanks evolution.

This was just after the initial planting:

Attached Image:

Week 0



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This is week 5, the tank has already been through its weed phase (used to speed up establishment) and is beginning to be scaped:

Attached Image:

Week 5



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By week 10, the scaping had become the main focus of the tank, many plants were moved and removed and new ones were planted:

Attached Image:

Week 10



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Week 15 was the beginning of the jungle days, plant growth was so immense that it became clear that things will have to change:

Attached Image:

Week 15



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Week 19 was that change during which the biggest replant since the tank's existence was performed:

Attached Image:

Week 19



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LITTLE_FISH
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Now, the tank as of today, one week after the last picture. Not too much change, but plants begin to re-establish themselves and some growth can be seen as well:

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Week 20 - Today



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Post InfoPosted 12-Feb-2006 19:29Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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LF,

Better rock. It will withstand the jungle to come a little better but I think tall will be better down the road...

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
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luvmykrib
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The tank looks great Ingo!
I think the narrow leaf java fern will do a good job where you tucked it. The rock will start to disappear a bit. Anubias seem to prefer to be shaded, at least mine do, I had to move some as it was getting covered in algae where it was. I also like different anubias grouped together for effect, they tend to complement each other. As for the crypts, some of them probably take longer than others to really become established. It took mine almost a year and they are all common types. If you don't move them around anymore they should start to grow more.

The snow! I'm SOOO jealous! That's where it all went! We have not had any real snow fall this year, it's going to be a rough spring and summer if we don't get any! My poor roses and fruit trees may suffer winter kill, not from it being too cold but from not having any snow cover. And my poor boys haven't gotten any good tobogganning in this year either. Enjoy all that snow!

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Post InfoPosted 13-Feb-2006 18:17Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
Actually I think some crawling wisteria would look great around the base of that rock and wood. I actually found some wisteria rooted into my driftwood the other day.

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NowherMan6
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Actually I think some crawling wisteria would look great around the base of that rock and wood.


LF didn't spend all that money on DW just to surround it with weeds.

But seriously tetra, did you do some sort of wisteria dance to make all the wisteria in everyone's tank grow like crazy? Because mine is not only the second tallest plant in my tank, it's also crawling like mad, taking over my HM....


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tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
But seriously tetra, did you do some sort of wisteria dance to make all the wisteria in everyone's tank grow like crazy

Glad to hear it. Yes in fact, anyone who comes in contact with the Wisteria Wizard should have great success (As long as they stay on my good side.) If not, I will make your wisteria do some ungodly things.

Actually I find it very handy to have around. When I planted the Rotala Wall. I had to remove some and I couldn't beleive how many layers I had. When I setup my 12g as you could see I shoved as much as I could into the back of the tank when I started getting BGA. I really think it helped clean up the water. I also notice because of the leaf size it leaves enough space for corys to rummage thru.

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Thanks all for the input

ONE year for the Crypts to establish themselves? I seriously doubt that mine will ever get established then .

Wisteria in front of the driftwood? That would be right on the glass. Are you sure tetratech?

Ingo


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Wisteria in front of the driftwood? That would be right on the glass. Are you sure tetratech?

It would have to be plantede between the rock and dw and on the left back corner of the rock. As it grows in some of the leaves would wrap around to the front without it being to full.



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luvmykrib
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ONE year for the Crypts to establish themselves? I seriously doubt that mine will ever get established then


It took almost a year for mine because
A) Low-light conditions under 1 wpg
B) Constant rearranging by moi
C) Possibly underfed (Fertilize? why?)
D) All of the above

Yours are starting to grow one week after re-planting, I doubt it will take a year, they probably just needed some breathing space (don't we all?)

Tetra thinks we all need wisteria in our tanks, is the stuff the cure-all for everything? Maybe we can cure the common cold with Tetratech's Amazing Trained Wisteria TM!
I have to admit I still want some though, the water sprite is driving me mad! Oops too late! Already there!

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Post InfoPosted 13-Feb-2006 23:54Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
hckycoz
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What lights do you have on that tank?

We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl year after year
Post InfoPosted 14-Feb-2006 05:14Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
hckycoz - I have 386W (2 x 96W 5,000K plus 2 x 96W 6,700K) power compact fluorescent lighting plus 6 moon lights (LEDs) from Coralife. This, and a few more details, can be seen in my profile. Welcome to FP EDIT: and nice signature, Pink Floyd

luvmykrib - Yeah, looks wise Wisteria seems to be prettier than Water Sprite, but that plant has its purpose as well, even if it might be only used as a helper in establishing a new planted tank (like in my case).

tetratech - I guess I will have to think about it. It sounds interesting and maybe one the large rock that holds down the drfitwood goes out then there might be an even better spot for it.

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luvmykrib
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You will need to figure out what to put in place of that rock eventually. How long until it becomes waterlogged anyway? I finally gave up on the piece I was floating in my water bucket, it didn't seem to want to sink...ever! I get the Geosystems driftwood or the bulk stuff from the Big Al's store in the city, then it is sure to sink.


I just wanted to show off my gold star!

I finally did it, after the practice one which I aced I couldn't seem to get them all right again!

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Post InfoPosted 15-Feb-2006 01:27Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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I get the Geosystems driftwood or the bulk stuff from the Big Al's store in the city

Luv, what is geosystems dw and you must be from the Florida area. Have you been to that new Big Als 18,000 ft store?

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luvmykrib
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Florida is a long way from where I'm at. I am an Alberta CANADA girl. The frozen North is my home, we send our Alberta clipper down that way to remind you guys what cold feels like, well at least we used to! We are finally getting that cold snap I was expecting way back in November.

The Big Al's in the city is in Edmonton, the Capital of Alberta, it is 20 mins from where I'm at.

Geosystems is a new line from Hagen, it is a natural biotope system. The kits are cheaper than the waterhome line in some cases. Wish I had seen that when we got the tank! The DW comes in differing sizes and is usually plastic wrapped or in a box. I like it because it will sink without needing to be soaked, just rinsed and in it goes. They have a line of natural gravel, stones and also a guide for planning your tank. Choose what biotope your fish will be from and then it gives you a selection of gravel, which plants to choose, what water parameters to aim for, pretty much what you need. I find it to be fairly flexible as well, but I am not a cookie cutter kind of person, I always colour outside the lines and the sky isn't always blue either.


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Post InfoPosted 15-Feb-2006 03:56Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Luv,
Excuse me had a senior moment. I did notice the Canadian indicator. Reason I said florida because I know Big Als has started to open retail stores in that state and wanted to see if anyone's been there.


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luvmykrib
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You are forgiven, I wish I had been there, or anywhere for that matter. It would be a lot warmer than here.

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Post InfoPosted 15-Feb-2006 04:13Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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luvmykrib,

Congrats on the first gold star, now hold it tight so you don't lose it again

And I am sure tetratech is hiding quite a few goldstars in his avatar and one day soon he will show us all 10 .

About the wood you buy at Big Al's. My LFS has driftwood packed in plastic as well and it works great in my smaller tanks. Only problem is that it leaks tannins for quite a while, but that is only a visual issue.

About my tank: it seems like thread algae is getting settled in. Every day I see a little more. I am dosing the same ferts than before the change. My guess would be that the plant mass is just too little now and plants are still working on estabilshing themselves.

And another thing, in case it helps identifying any imbalance: about half of my Rotala Macandra stems have the top section melting instead of forming new leaves. Just the tip of the plant.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 15-Feb-2006 11:42Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Check nitrates.

Macrandra is picky. Not enough No3 it will stunt , too much No3 it will stunt

Any other plants showing similar ? Smaller leaves , curled crinkled leaves ?


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Post InfoPosted 15-Feb-2006 15:28Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Macrandra is picky. Not enough No3 it will stunt , too much No3 it will stunt

Then what to do about the poor starving Stargrass?

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No, no other plant seems to show similar issues, I would assume to see first signs on the Pearl Grass with its tiny leaves - but not (yet).

I have no issues with the Star Grass, except that some leaf tips turn black (no algae).

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 15-Feb-2006 16:48Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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I have no issues with the Star Grass, except that some leaf tips turn black (no algae).

Actually what I meant was if you start to lighten up on No3 for the Macrandra

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Hm, so you assume I am overdosing at the moment? Might very well be.

Daily:

1/2 tsp of Potassium Nitrate
1/8 of Potassium Sulfate or 1/8 of Potassium Phosphate (one one day day, the other on the next)
17ml of TMG

Ingo


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tetratech
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Not saying your defintiely ODing just if you decide to cut current levels to see affect on the rotala.

Seems like alot of no3 especially since you cut out so much mass. Amano builds up levels to match mass, but we all agree no3 doesnt' cause algae.

My current dosing.

3 times/week

.5 tsp no3
.05 tsp po4
15ml flourish

I haven't dosed so4 separately in months.





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Post InfoPosted 15-Feb-2006 19:45Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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tetratech,

I don't care about the sulfate either it is the K that I am after. I don't want to add too much P so I alernate between Potassium Sulfate and Potassium Phosphate. Remember, I got that high tab P.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 15-Feb-2006 20:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Dr. Bonke
 
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let me get this straight you fertilize every day (ingo) or every other day (Tetra)? Considering that my plantload seems heavier than Tetra's I should then move mine to somewhere in the middle I guess? currently I'm dosing twice per week
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Yeah Dr.,

EI suggests to dose at least every other day, whereby you dose macros on one day and micros on the other, both 3 times a week. This leaves you with the day before the water change off (except feeding the fishies, of course).

I broke my dosage in half and dose every day to maximize the stability of the nutrient level.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 15-Feb-2006 22:02Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Considering that my plantload seems heavier than Tetra's I should then move mine to somewhere in the middle I guess?


That's the beauty of EI - there isn't one exact dose you need, you're just shooting to get nutrient levels within and broad range, and keep them stable in that range. Three times a week for N and K isn't far out, that's what i do for my 46 gallon. I do 1/4 tsp KNO3 and 1/8 or slightly less K, then Flourish on off days, total 15ml per week or thereabout. In tetras case he has a lot of fast growers in there, tons of wisteria which can suck up nutrients. I think he also likes to keep N high for the stargrass. I try not to dose too much N because I have a relatively high fishload and i think my rotala likes it a little on the lean side. It depends on your plant load but also kinds of plants.

If the schedule Bensaf gave you is working then the results speak for themselves. You can adjust a little bit here and there to see if there are any changes, but the "good" range for are quite broad so you need not worry about hitting a specific target level. Just keep up the weekly WCs


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Post InfoPosted 15-Feb-2006 22:04Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Considering that my plantload seems heavier than Tetra's

That's an interesting question I first glance yes, Dr. Bonke's tank has much more vertical mass, but I have a thick cushion of wisteria covering about 80% of my substrate and it is several layers deep. If I stood my tank on it's side. I would have 4 feet of the stuff.



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Post InfoPosted 15-Feb-2006 22:05Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Then what to do about the poor starving Stargrass?


This is where plants Macrandra become a pain.

It may be with the same dose of No3 and less plants that it is not been consumed at the same rate so has built up slightly and the Rotala doesn't like it.

Should you reduce No3 to perk up the Rotala ? Well, I wouldn't bother. Keeping No3 levels low to satisfy one plant is a crap shoot. You risk messing up the others. Not worth it IMO. Keep things going and if the Macrandra doesn't like it - tough.

If other plants show syptoms look more closely.

If it is No3, the plant mass will gradually increase to previous levels and consume more, bringing things back into a range the Rotala likes and it will recover quickly, it's a real fast grower.

Leave things be. Only change if you think things are too low. Usually the best change and the best results is to add not decrease.


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 16-Feb-2006 04:19Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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EditedEdited by bensaf
Don't take me wrong. I'm not suggesting high No3 is the Rotalas problem. It's one of a number of possibilities. The fact that you are seeing algae would indicate the opposite.

Re-check everything , especially Co2. When problems occur I almost always increase not reduce. More Co2, more N and P, more micros. It is almost always too little of something, hardly ever too much.

It's just that macrandra is funny, too little it's not happy, too much it's not happy. They are the nagging wives of the aquatic plant world.


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 16-Feb-2006 08:09Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Bensaf,

Thanks for the advice, I was not intending to reduce the amouns of ferts.

The one thing I did 2 days ago was to move a small powerhead that was on the left to the right. That area used to be a little under-circulated and maybe the increased water flow will help evening out the ferts some more. This is not for the Macandra but an attempt to reduce the thread/staghorn algae.

BTW, the new Crypt Lutea seems to settle nicely. Leaves are responding to the light influence and have repositioned themselves to catch more of it. I might (at some point) take it out from its slightly shaded spot and place it in open light.

Thanks again,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 16-Feb-2006 11:34Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Well,

I haven't had much to say in my log in 2 days, but the ever increasing algae is worth a mention.

Here are 6 pictures of the tank as of today, water change will have to wait as my back does not permit me to drag heavy items (like 5G of water). Pulled a muscle from shoveling snow, getting old I guess.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 18-Feb-2006 21:34Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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First a nice one. The center group with wood and Star Grass is looking nice, I think:

Attached Image:

Center Group



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Post InfoPosted 18-Feb-2006 21:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Here is a closeup of malfunctioning/disformed tops of the Rotala Macandra:

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Rotala Macandra



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Post InfoPosted 18-Feb-2006 21:37Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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How about some Staghorn on the Cyperus Helferi:

Attached Image:

Cyperus Helferi



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Post InfoPosted 18-Feb-2006 21:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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And the same algae on the gravel:

Attached Image:

Staghorn



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Post InfoPosted 18-Feb-2006 21:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Now some thread algae on the Red Rubin Sword:

Attached Image:

Red Rubin Sword



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Post InfoPosted 18-Feb-2006 21:39Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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And last but not least, even the new driftwood is getting a layer of Thread algae

Attached Image:

Driftwood



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Post InfoPosted 18-Feb-2006 21:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
ChaosMaximus
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LF,

Hey, even your algae looks nice . They are good pictures. I was just wondering if thats duckweed floating on the top of the tank or if its something else. It looks cool.

Chaos


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Post InfoPosted 18-Feb-2006 22:32Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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The center group with wood and Star Grass is looking nice, I think

Holy Maintenance! It does look nice, but are you crazy putting that stargrass around all that wood.

I think you know my humble opinion on your algae. Forget how much no3, po4 and micros your dosing, this has more to do with light and waste. With your light you have less wiggle room and more room for the algae to creep back in, especially after a major change like you did.


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Post InfoPosted 18-Feb-2006 23:04Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Chaos - Yeah, that is duckweed, but I would advise against it on a small tank as it can spread really fast and shade the whole tank. My tank is pretty much covered in 3 to 4 weeks, although I always only leave a few in.

Tetratech - I need more plants, darn

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 18-Feb-2006 23:55Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bodangit
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Wad the algae up into a ball and make some tribbles!


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Post InfoPosted 19-Feb-2006 05:19Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Dr. Bonke
 
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Ingo,
Looking at the last few algae photos I'm getting a slight deja vu. The stuff on the wood and plants look exactly the way it did on mine before it got completely covered. And yesterday I too found a few threads of staghorn in my tank I'm going to follow you very closely now to see how you will get rid of that Otherwise, great looking!
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bodangit - hm, thanks, I guess

Dr. - I had worse algae before, at the time my tank was not established yet. It makes perfect sense that similar events happen now, given that

a) I thinned out the plant mass by at least 50%
b) I uprooted all but one species (although interestingly it is the one with the most threads and staghorn)

Actually, the Cyperus had already some algae while the tank was redone. It definately came from the Xmas moss that was on the rocks and jumped over to leaves of the Cyperus as they bend onto the moss. As a slow grower, it makes sense that the algae feels pretty happy there.

Although I haven't made my mind up completely yet, I am pretty sure that I will start one week of Excel treatment today (after the water change).

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 19-Feb-2006 11:19Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by dan76
hi ingo


long time reader first time poster

sorry, bad joke.

anyway , how are your rainbows doing?


cheers dan

OH TOLEEDY!
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Yeah Dan,

All the entries I make in your threads, you owe me quite a few

The rainbows are doing just fine. The peruse the tank, sometimes alone and sometimes as a group, but no tight schooling. I also see some males having interest in the ladies, but I would be surprised if any fry would turn up any time soon.

And keep on posting, will ya

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Post InfoPosted 19-Feb-2006 12:14Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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The Rotala is stunting.

That and the algae my first impression would be low Nitrates.

I'm not a fan of the daily dosing routine you are doing. Trying to micro manage and limit the doses is troublesome. Some plants can grab N quicker and easier then others. By try to add just enough per day is running the risk of one or more species getting left out of the food hunt.

Dosing about 10ppm 3 times (more then even the nest tank can consume in a day) a week will ensure everything gets it's share.
I also see what looks like some white dots on the rotala leaves. White dots on this plant would indicate FE shortage.

Again, I'd be looking at nutrients and adding more. Start with Co2 and N.


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Weekly Tank Update - Week 21

Well, as has been discusses, I am having a small Algae problem.

I couldn't do to much with the tank during the week and during todays water change as my back went out on Wednesday from too much snow shoveling.

What I did was that I added about ten smaller stems of the Bacopa from my 29G, just to increase the plant mass a little.

Also, based on Bensaf's advice, I decided to go back to bi-daily fertilizer routines. I also start another round of Excel treatment.

Today, I added 1tsp Potassium Nitrate and 1/4 tsp of Potassium Phosphate. Also 50ml of Excel. I will add 20ml of TMG later, just to get the micros a head start.

Tomorrow I will add another 30 ml of TMG, the following day the macros again, and the following day 30ml of TMG. From there on it will be the same amount on alternate days. Plus 20ml of Excel on all days (for a week).

I also replaced the sponge in the reactor with a new one, just in case, and beefed up the CO2 to "just below constant stream".

Pictures of this weekly update will be the last 3 weeks since this setup came into being. There is for sure some growth to be seen, in particular the Star Grass likes it in there ( right tetratech? ).

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Week 19, just after replanting:

Attached Image:

Week 19



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Week 20

Attached Image:

Week 20



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And today, week 21:

Attached Image:

Week 21



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Star grass is going nuts.

I would work that has the high point and slide everything down to the corners

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I know your having some algae problems, but the tank is looking good and will look amazing once it fills in even more.

Today, I added 1tsp Potassium Nitrate and 1/4 tsp of Potassium Phosphate

Curious why are you adding n and p in a 4 to 1 ratio? I must be missing something.


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bensaf
 
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Curious why are you adding n and p in a 4 to 1 ratio? I must be missing something.


1 tspn of KH2PO4 doesn't give the same ppm of phosphate as 1 tspn of KNO3 gives ppm of NO3.

So even if does 4:1 powder doesn't equate to 4:1 ppm.


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EditedEdited by tetratech
So even if does 4:1 powder doesn't equate to 4:1 ppm.

Glad it's an Estimate Index.
When I check the fertiliator (assuming it's correct) I would have 5.9ppm to 1.8ppm of N to P, a 3.3:1 ratio if I dosed the same way. I forget it's late. What is your source of N and what is your nephew's?



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bensaf
 
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Should have checked my calculator before I said anything shouldn't I ?

Strangley Chuck's calculator differs it gives a result of 7.26ppm of NO3 and 1.77 PO4. Pretty close to a 4:1 ratio

Hmmm.... I wouldn't worry about the P, but that number for N is a bit low , and if the Fertilator is correct I'd consider that a very low dose

I'd definately be looking at upping my NO3 dosing. This nothing to do with ratios , it's just not enough NO3 going in IMO.


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tetratech and bensaf,

Glad you bring up the calculation again, as I haven't used any calculator in a while.

I would assume that at best I have 115G of water, if not down to 100G. With the 115G I get around 8ppm of N from 1tsp of KNO3. True, this may be a little too low, but what about all the N-forms that are produced by over 100 fish?

P would be at 115G around 2ppm at 1/4tsp, that may be too high, so maybe I should go down to 1/8tsp. Inparticular because my tab has P as well (supposedly, when measured a way while back, 2ppm).

Any thoughts?

Wings - thanks for the suggestion, I will see more when the plants have settled yet again

Ingo


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Wow that is something I haven't thought of. Less water to treat because of all the junk in the tank.

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Wings,

Yeah, I think when you have such a big tank that has an overall volume of 125G then you see some major differences in net volume. What I don't know is if these deductions (like over 200lbs of gravel, various rocks, and the wood) have been considered when the calculator formulas have been put in place.

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You have to start displacing a fair amount of water with all the gravel, wood and rocks. Then as your plant mass grows that has to have some effect too. Maybe not as much as the rocks and such. Food for thought though.

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Post InfoPosted 20-Feb-2006 15:48Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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but what about all the N-forms that are produced by over 100 fish?


Forget about it. You can't measure it so don't think about it.

The fish waste will be in the form of NH4. Plants will consume this before they consume NO3, it's easier to access the nitrogen in NH4. So if the NO3 is being consumed it means the NH4 is also being consumed.Beforehand.

NO3 won't cause algae. The tiniest smidgen of NH4 will.This is why the idea of adding more fish to increase NO3 rather then dosing doesn't work. The fish first produce NH4, dangerous, KNO3 is inorganic and safe.

Now , knowing you guys the way I do I am sure you will try to make a case that your current problems are due to fish load. Knock yourselves out.

I believe your problem is low NO3. Add more and see the results.A bit more inorganic NO3 won't hurt anything. Tetra will testify as to what happened when he increased doses. I believe it was all good. /:'


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bensaf
 
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What I don't know is if these deductions (like over 200lbs of gravel, various rocks, and the wood) have been considered when the calculator formulas have been put in place.



Didn't need to. You do that yourself. You can enter any volume of water you like. It's up to you to calculate how much water in your tank. Just because you have a 40gal tank doesn't mean you have to key in 40gals. You can key 30,35,55 etc.

But again, you don't have to be that precise. ESTIMATIVE Index.


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Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
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I know... its all a big guess!

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Post InfoPosted 20-Feb-2006 16:11Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Glad it's an Estimate Index.


But again, you don't have to be that precise. ESTIMATIVE Index


EXACTLY, well not really. That is the key ESTIMATE. Don't worry about hardscape and exact gallon content.
To excess

The tiniest smidgen of NH4 will.This is why the idea of adding more fish to increase NO3 rather then dosing doesn't work. The fish first produce NH4, dangerous, KNO3 is inorganic and safe.

But there is a direct relationship between fish load and algae, with light and mass being the controling factors.



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Ok Ok Bensaf,

I will switch to 1.25tsp of KNO3 and 1/8tsp of Potassium Phosphate, every other day . Happy now

Anyway, I will bring up tetratechs point (and mine) some more.

Fish load and NO3 fertilization: We all agree that plants prefer ammonia etc. over KNO3. Ammonia is only present in a tank with fish (or if someone adds fish food or ammonia for some reason). I assume (proof me otherwise) that ammonia is the same nutrient that the plant need than the one it gets from NO3. If you have no fish then all of this nutrient has to come from NO3. If fish are present then ammonia will be taken up first and only then the NO3 will be consumed. If you have a lot of fish then you may reach a point where only very little of the NO3 will be taken up because soooo much ammonia is available. Ergo, my assumption that I need less KNO3 than calculators tell you.

Am I wrong?

Ingo


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DeletedPosted 21-Feb-2006 02:26
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Got bored so I took some more pictures:

Here are two Crypt Wendtii surrounded by Pearl Grass. They just don't seem to grow that well in my tank(s):

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Crypt Wendtii



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The Alternanthera starts to show itself, now that it finally gets some light:

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Alternanthera



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The Boss of the Neons:

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Male Dwarf Neon Rainbow



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And one of my "Millions Fish"

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Espei



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Post InfoPosted 21-Feb-2006 02:31Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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LF,
I think there is always some waste/nh4 in the tank even without any fish. Decaying plant leaves, stems, uneating food will eventually get broken down into waste. And certainly the more plants the more likely the plants will get at the nh4 before the algae has a chance, but with less mass and good light the algae have a fertile environment to take hold.

Crypt Wendti:
Why do you think this plant doesn't grow well?
Nice pics, I really do like the rainbows. I am tempted to put a few in my tank. Do you know if they would eat my shrimp?

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Ergo, my assumption that I need less KNO3 than calculators tell you.


We are actually stepping back about 53 pages now.

All true about the NH4. But as I said you can't quantify it. So how much do you reduce NO3 doses to account for it

All this time and almost 2000 posts later you're still frightened of the nutrients.

Why even bother to reduce the No3 dosing to allow for fish waste? No3 is an inorganic source of N it won't cause algae. So instead of trying to do calculations and allowances for an unknown just add the No3. A little excess won't hurt, a shortage will kick your butt

At this stage of the tanks life you have a lot of plants and a large bacteria colony, NH4 will disappear almost as fast as it's produced.

Keep up with the NO3 dosing, give it 2 -3 weeks and tell us what you see.

For the crypt I always find they do better in planted in groups of 3 or so. They look a bit sad on their own. In groups they seem to go into competition mode and try to outgrow one another.


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EditedEdited by Wingsdlc
I have 9 rainbows in my 40G and they don't touch my glass shrimp. You have some other much cooler types that I don't have a clue about though.

Edit:

Crypts. I have two in my tank and they are growing really well. I just moved one though because I got a new anubias so I don't know what its going to do. Being the plant guy at work I have had to crpts flower. Don't know what I am doing right but its cool stuff.

Oh you guys will love this... My boss today told a customer that the plants I have been feeding at work don't need any extra nutrients other than what fish are giving them...because its a big tank.... Some days....

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Post InfoPosted 21-Feb-2006 03:48Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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For the crypt I always find they do better in planted in groups of 3 or so. They look a bit sad on their own. In groups they seem to go into competition mode and try to outgrow one another.


ITA with this. All my "bushy" crypts started out as a tight bunch of at least 5 individual plants. In the tank where I space out the individual (or 2-3) plants, they don't get as bushy, but spreads out runners to other parts of the tank.

BTW LF, are my eyes bad or is there a little bit of green/hair algae on the leaves of your crypts?

-P
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tetratech -

"Crypt Wendti: Why do you think this plant doesn't grow well?" I have them in the tank since the beginning. When I added them they had about the same number of leaves. Yeah, new ones came, but old ones always melted away. In none of my tanks do Crypt Wendtii have more than 5 leaves each.
And I think that the Rainbows will leave the shrimp alone.

Bensaf -

Deal, I will keep up this dosing and see what happens. To be continued ...
On my next re-arrangement I will try to group the Wendtiis.

Wings -

Thanks for the info. Are your crypts grouped?

Paulus -

Thanks to you for the cypt info as well, gives me already two people with similar experiences.
And yeah, this is thread algae . That is what the recent discussion on NO3 is all about. Your eyes are just fine .

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Post InfoPosted 21-Feb-2006 12:21Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Paulus,
wow good eye! I had to go back and look for it.

LF,

Mine were not grouped. They were probably 5 inches apart. Now they are even farther apart. The once at work are not growing like mine but they are pushing flowers. I would try adding in some root tabs. They might want more nutrients. Remember our cool substraits will not last for ever.

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We are actually stepping back about 53 pages now


Just wanted to second that emotion. Maybe it's the natural cycle of the log. Another 50 pages from now we'll wondering whether KNO3 has been causing that hair algae again


Back in the saddle!
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upikabu
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Ingo - Out of curiosity, have you tested the nitrate level in your tank recently? I'm just wondering approximately how much nitrate you have with all those fish in there.

-P
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Thanks Wings for the update on your Crypts

Paulus - No, I haven't tested anything in at least a month, if not longer.

I used to test quite a bit in the past when I used 1.25tsp of KNO3 every other day (for a while already, not when I started) and my kit (faulty or not) read way over 20ppm, even with less fish. It took over a week of no ferts and 50% water change to get the value around or below 20ppm. Even if the kit was not accurate (tetratech strongly belives - and tested for it - that the kits show way too high of a value), I could see the tendencies and how much is consumed over time. This was the reason I switched over to daily fertilization and reduced dosage (0.5tsp per day).

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upikabu
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EditedEdited by upikabu
Fair enough. You know what I think you need? Some SAE's. They should take care of your occasional hair algae problem, provided you get a group (at least 3 for your size tank) of very young/small juveniles. I know it doesn't solve the root of the problem, but sometimes you can go nuts (or round in circles, in your case ) trying to figure out every minute detail when we know there are a lot of variables (fish stock, amount of waste, plant mass, etc.) at any given time that could contribute to the problem. Just keep dosing the macros.

I know SAE's can get fat and lazy when they get big (esp. when they're alone), but since you have a lot of voracious fish in that tank (espei, rainbows) the SAE's should be outcompeted for food and grow slowly.

Just my 2c.
Cheers,
-Paulus

-P
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My SAE hasn't got fat and lazy yet, he's a very active member in the tank, although he doesn't eat as much algae as he used to, he can be seen nibbling when he's hungry. I tend to underfeed, then sometimes I offer algae flakes before offering the regular flakes. This tends to get him thinking right again, and it seems to be good for the other fish as well.

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Post InfoPosted 22-Feb-2006 00:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
It was mentioned a little above this entry that my algae and nutrient issues have been discussed 53 pages back. Well, SAE have been discussed maybe 15 pages back and overall there seem to have been more disadvantages than advantages. I initially thought I would like to have them, but couldn't find any in the LFSs, then I decided not to get them and a week later the LFS had a whole tank full.

So for the time being, no SAE for my tank, but thanks anyway for thinking about it as an option .

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Post InfoPosted 22-Feb-2006 01:08Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Gang,

I added a plant ID thread in this forum, if you haven't done so already, could you be so kind and try to help me with the ID by Clicking Here.

Thanks in advance,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 22-Feb-2006 12:05Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Well,

It is 3 days since my last entry and not much has happened that would be worth mentioning, except:

I have been following the new fert routine to the dot, meaning every other day 1.25tsp of KNO3 and 1/8tsp Potassium Phosphate, and the days between 40ml of TMG. In addition, after the water change I added 50ml of Excel and then every following day 20ml. I was curious if this would help the thread/staghorn algae that seemed to be starting to become an issue.

Did it help? No - this kind of algae is still there, spreading even further. Unfortunately, I am now also getting BBA on a few plants, like the leaves of the Cyperus Helferi and Crypt Retrospiralis. Also, the Anubias Nana and Barteri have some odd black markings on them that I cannot identify. It looks like someone had blown dirt over the plants and some of it adhered to the leaves. I will try to take a picture of it a little later in the day.

Also, I will measure some parameters, I for one thing bet you that I will get very high readings of Nitrate and Phosphate. This are the times when my tank makes me angry as I seem to be incapable of figuring out the right levels of ferts. Or maybe it isn't the tank that makes me angry, maybe (most likely) it is myself.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 25-Feb-2006 11:28Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
upikabu
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Also, the Anubias Nana and Barteri have some odd black markings on them that I cannot identify. It looks like someone had blown dirt over the plants and some of it adhered to the leaves.


Ingo, do you remember me mentioning the "black algae" on the leaves of some of my plants in my thread (3rd post)? I'm pretty sure it's the same one you're seeing in your anubias. Still don't know what really caused it, but it hasn't come back since I removed the stems that had it.

-P
Post InfoPosted 25-Feb-2006 13:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Paulus,

It seems to be different as you say your leaves turned black beginning at the edges. My edges are fine, there are little specles all over the leaf surface.

I used to have the algae that started on the edges and that was for sure BBA. And it reacted very well to the Excel treatment.

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Post InfoPosted 25-Feb-2006 13:53Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Nope, the one I was referring to looked more like black dusting over the leaf surface, particularly in the middle area (not edges). It was most ounced on the hygro polysperma & stricta's leaves. I can't rub the black off with my fingers, they seem to be fused to the leaves.

-P
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Ok,

here is a picture that shows what I mean (Paulus, just like yours? ). It seems to be not confined to any particular part of the tank, and exists on probably 40% of all my Anubias leaves. Grrrrrr

Attached Image:

Spot Stuff



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Gang,

I just did my water change, but not before measuring Nitrates and Phosphates. To my surprise, the Nitrates seem to be within the level, maybe a little over 20ppm (maybe even 30) but not what I expected. Phosphates, on the other hand, are where I expected them, 5ppm. Way too much, just like the last time when I dosed them rather frequently (then I caught it only when it was already 10ppm). I have faith in my phosphate test kit, believe it or not, as I performed extensive dosing tests to the tank to see how the kit will change colors. I have a tab of 2ppm, which should be the maximum given 20ppm of Nitrate. I will cut back on phosphate dosing, I started already by not adding any today, just the 1.25tsp of KNO3 (plus all the other stuff, baking soda, Equilibrium).

The Retrospiralis hasn't taken too kindly on the separation into smaller plants when I did the major overhaul a few weeks back. In good crypt fashion, half the leaves have been or are melting. Similar, the narrow leaf sags have some melting going on, they are also not too wild about the replanting.

An interesting fact: I finished 1 pound (US Pound) of KNO3 today. Just for the fun of it, this means:

- The tank is up and running for 154 days
- I added about 2.9432g per day (1 pound = 453.28g)
- This means I added about 0.54tsp per day
- And it means I added 3.81 ppm per day

I also removed the rock on the right and replaced it by planting this area with clippings of my Narrow Leaf Ludwigia from the 20G (needed trimming anyway). I figured if I don't like it I can take it out again, but more plant mass is probably good right now.

Pictures will follow tomorrow,

Any input is appreciated,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Feb-2006 00:46Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Ingo, yup I've seen those spots before on my anubias' and radican sword's leaves. The ones on my hygros are more like black dusting, not as distict spots. Could be the same thing though, just shows up different on different leaves. Oh well, I guess we'll just have to wait until bensaf identifies it.

-P
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Ingo,
In regards to the anubias pic. Isn't that a form of beard/brush algae.

Interesting facts about no3 consumation. Did you buy the no3 from gregwatson. If your not placing a full order you could use the Greenlight Stump Remover available at Lowes. It's pure potassium nitrate.

Looking forward to seeing your pics, manana

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Post InfoPosted 26-Feb-2006 02:06Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Looks like brand new BBA.

Check and re-check Co2.

I've had similar stuff, it just stayed that way never got furry like older BBA. I trimmed it off.


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Thanks all for your input on the Anubias spots. I bet you it is Phosphate related. 5ppm is just too much. My CO2 is turned up higher than ever before, too fast to count bubbles and almost a constant flow of air (well, not air but CO2, you know what I mean).

Anyway, I went to the basement this morning to get some ferts for the 29G and saw on light beam fall into the tank through the small window behind it. I grabbed the camera and took some pictures, most of course were pretty bad, holding the camera steady is not that easy in almost no light. Anyway, I thought I share the best 3 pictures.

Here is the beam falling into the tank:

Attached Image:

Let there be light



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And here is another one. A real close-up of the light hitting just the top of a Pearl Grass.

The colors are broken down by the tank glass I guess, but I liked it.

Attached Image:

Pearl in the light



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And lastly, the top of the Star Grass got an extra load of light.

Yeah, I know it is time to trim it as it begins to float along the surface, so maybe next weekend I am going to do that.

Attached Image:

Stars in the light



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Interesting pics, but is the reason your showing this because their nice to look at or are you feeling it is related to your algae issue?

I forget did you start getting the algae before you rescaped with the wood. I think you were, but it got worse after the rescape.

We are living by the same code as far as ferting (I like that word) , the only real difference is lighting and I guess stocking levels. Again I don't think tweaking ferts here and there is going to change anything. Remember it's an estimative index.

My 2 cents if you want it is:

1.Do semi-weekly water changes. With the python it's really not that big of a deal.
2.Pack as much biomaterial you can into your Eheim. Use purigen in the filter as well.
3.Add floating plants
4.Feed less (I'm not saying your overfeeding, but just feed less)
5.I'm sure you doing this, but make sure you do the tetra dance in full attire at least twice a week. You could do it during the water changes to save time.

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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Weekly Tank Update - Week 22

I will incorporate tetratech's last entry here in this weeks update as it relates directly to the issues at hand, namely algae.

Well, first of all - no, the sun beam pictures were posted purely for their artistic value, even if I am not that much of an artist . I don't think that the 1 minute when the light hits the tank (and it is just a reflection of light from the neighbor's house, not even direct light) has anything to do with algae.

And tetratech - I don't think we are in the same boat with ferting. Every time when I dose Phosphates I have problems like this one. It might be a coincidence because I always tend to dose more by the broad rules after major changes, but I strongly believe that 5ppm of Phosphates does not mean that I "micro manage my macros" - this is 250% of what the Phosphate should be. My tab content is very different than yours and yes, my fish are creating phosphates as well. No more phosphate adding for the next 2 weeks .

Overall, I added two crypts to the tank that are still small, but seem to start to develop new roots - a good sign. Certain plants, in particular the Star Grass, are growing like mad, while others develop black spots (BBA, as Bensaf points out) or are even reduced in number (Duckweed - but don't tell me I am low on KNO3). I added clippings of Narrow Leaf Ludwigia from the 20G to the right hand side to increase the bioload.

EDIT: Feeding a little less sounds good, and yeah - I will try the dance more often, if it helps .

No more talk, more pictures . Here is a nice shot of the Alternanthera, for the first time ever this plant is really kicking into gear.

Attached Image:

Alternanthera reineckii



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Here is a picture showing the cuttings of the Narrow Leaf Ludwigia. As you can see, they are very small but the plant is a fast grower, or at least used to be when it was in the tank originally. If all goes well then I will have to trim it the first time in about three weeks.

Attached Image:

Narrow Leaf Ludwigia



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Now, for the full tank shots I don't want to bother you with too many pictures of the same, with just minor growth differences. In anyway, a fair comparison can only be made within the current design, and that is only 4 weeks old.

Here is the tank immediately after the dust had settled from the major overhaul:

Attached Image:

Week 19



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And here is the tank today. All looks good from the distance, but up close the algae is really kicking into full gear.

The Star Grass really needs a trimming soon, probably next weekend, if not sooner.

Oh, BTW, I was in the city today and went to a fish store there. Loads and loads of BBA, huge, in almost all of their tanks, plus many fish with fin rot and what not, plus too many dead ones. All plants in bad shape (they even had 2 bushels of Pearl Grass). But the Dwarf Rainbows were half the price then they are here, but I am proud of myself, I resisted .

Attached Image:

Week 22



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EditedEdited by Wingsdlc
LF,

I really like what your tank is turning into. Starting to look a little jungle like again though. Not that thats all bad because we can see your 2x4's sticking out of it.

Edit: On the scape of things... I really think you should work high in the middle to low on the outsides. I am not a big fan of the tall stuff in the back corners. Maybe put that in the middle behind or on the edge of the star grass.

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Post InfoPosted 27-Feb-2006 02:22Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by tetratech
And tetratech - I don't think we are in the same boat with ferting. Every time when I dose Phosphates I have problems like this one. It might be a coincidence because I always tend to dose more by the broad rules after major changes, but I strongly believe that 5ppm of Phosphates does not mean that I "micro manage my macros"

What I meant was that we are both following the same basic EI dosing principle and the differences in the two tanks are light and maybe fish load. It's strange because I once had unexplained high po4 levels in my tank until I finally realized it was the corrupted eco complete, but I was getting po4 levels in the 50+ppm range.

but I strongly believe that 5ppm of Phosphates does not mean that I "micro manage my macros"

I never said that you are micro managing your macros. That's just a general statement based on EI. Sorry if you thought that.





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Post InfoPosted 27-Feb-2006 04:09Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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That section in the middle is gorgous, LF. I was genuinely excited when I saw that pic.


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Post InfoPosted 27-Feb-2006 05:05Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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No more phosphate adding for the next 2 weeks


I think this is a bad idea. The idea behind EI is to get yourself into a routine of dosing so your plants always have what they need. I think you should keep dosing, but do less. I'm in your boat with the PO4 LF, but I'm going to dose it. No matter how small an amount I find keeps the levels around 1-2 ppm, that's what I'm going to do.

For me it's very easy to first dissolve the powder from Greg Watson into a 2L bottle so that 1mL = .15ppm of PO4 in my tank using Chuck's calculator. Right now that's what I'm dosing every other day. My tap provides the rest. I may still need to increase the dosing as this was a lowball estimate, but I'm going to dose it and stick to it until I find I need to increase or decrease it.

If I were you, that's what I'd do. You don't have a real nasty algae problem, your plants are growing. Stick to it and dose small amounts until your tank levels off at 2ish ppm of PO4. This might take a while, but at least you'll find the right amount to be consistant.



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Wings, tetratech, NowherMan6, and Matty,

Thanks for your input

Wings - I agree with your, building from the visual center down towards the sides would look very nice and I envision something like that (at least for the moment) in the future. But I cannot afford to disrupt the plants currently as they are just beginning to recover from the major replant. As for right now, I will have to stick to this "design".

tetratech - No, I didn't mean to say that you imply I would not follow EI and that I would micro manage. Sorry about that misunderstanding, I was just using your siggie line as a guide for my words. What surprises me though is that I cannot get a clear "You are right, 5ppm Phosphate is too much" out of anyone here .

NowherMan6 - Yeah, that part is nice, maybe because it kind of copies tetratech's center piece section . I guess I will have to order a bunch of wisteria now and replace all other parts with that plant .

Matty - I gave your suggestion quite some thought, even before you made it. Actually, I thought about this already when I had the 10ppm of Phosphate quite a while back. Why do I not want to add more P in the next two weeks: Traditionally I have noticed that my P uptake is not really strong, so a small amount of P is very sufficient (around 2ppm with minimal dosing to keep it there). Having had 5ppm before the 50% water change and having tab water with about 2ppm should give me around 3.5ppm right now. Let's assume that there will be a 1ppm uptake during this week (which I doubt), then I have 2.5ppm before the next water change and after that there should be around 2.25ppm of P. What I may do is dose just a little in the second week, towards the end.

The conceptual issue I have is that I cannot understand that the plants would make any use of more P than necesairy. We all know that EI says a tenth of N in P (20ppm N and 2ppm P) should be more then the plants can "eat". There seems to be zero advantage (and maybe loads of disadvantages) to being over that level. So, why would I dose any, even tiny, amount?


Anyway - Just to make it all more complicated: After my latest entry I went ahead and perused the web focussing on Duckweed. I tried to find a reference that would state something like "High P will kill Duckweed". Unfortunately the opposite was true, it appears that Duckweed likes high P, darn. So, if that is the case, why do I have almost none left in the tank? Yeah, I removed a lot last weekend, but usually it is coming right back. I doubt that the test kits are so off that I would actually be starving P (and N, for that matter). The only other thing I can think off is my Excel treatment which I did during the entire week. Maybe, just like Egeria, Duckweed doesn't do well with a heavy dose of Excel. This would also explain why my other two tanks are Duckweed free, even with the occasional seeding of duckweed.

K, enough rambling for now. You all know how I feel as you all have been in this situation (yeah, same boat tetratech ) when you think you got something figured out and the next thought is reversing the whole logic.

Thanks for sticking with me,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 27-Feb-2006 12:04Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I did some minor water testing last night to see if I actually have enough CO2. Just because I inject an almost constant stream wouldn't have to be equal to good CO2. So I tested for ph and KH

ph = 6.5
KH = 4 (I added a little more baking soda than usual)

That means my CO2 should be around 38 to 40ppm. I guess that is sufficient, right?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 18:48Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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38-40 should be fine. but if you're getting BBA then maybe it's not fine enough...

BTW, you add baking soda? Do you do this after WCs? What's your baking soda dosing schedule and why do you do it?


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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 19:02Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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LF,
I have a clear head right now, so let me interject some very sensible logic.

You say your ph is 6.5 and your kh is 4 so you have 39ppm.
Yes that sounds lovely. But let's say for argument purposes your ph is really 6.6 and your kh is 3.5 (which is totally possible) now your co2 is 26ppm. Still not bad, but... what if your ph is really 6.7 and your kh is 3 now your have co2 of 18ppm (Not as likely, but still very possible).

I have to defer to the great one. (In our little aqua world anyway). "Look at the fish, look at the plants. They will tell you more than some test kit"

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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 19:10Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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I have to defer to the great one. (In our little aqua world anyway). "Look at the fish, look at the plants. They will tell you more than some test kit"


Wayne Gretzky said that? Hm, I don't recall. Maybe it was during his one season with the St. Louis Blues....

... if not that, then I assume you're talking about Bensaf.

Now I know this has been argued over and over again but I'm still hanging on to the test kit lifeline. Are they all really that unreliable, even ph? If a test kit says 5ppm P, are we supposed to just not believe it and keep adding anyway?


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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 19:28Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Yeah Bensaf, not Wayne. I'm such a suck up
There really is no way with a color strip IMO to know exactly what your ph is, so as I showed if the true number is off a little from your test kit than it could mean a big difference in the co2 number, so yeah look at the fish. I could tell you I have constant stream of bubbles and my fish are all looking fine and my tank is 2 feet shorter than LF.

As far as the 5ppm reading, you would hope that would be fairly accruate 4 to 6ppm but who knows.

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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 19:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Wayne Gretzky said that?


Well, I for sure cannot guarantee that I have a ph of 6.5, maybe it is 6.7 or 6.3. I guess I could try to hook up my expensive ph testing device that I never used. Darn, I don't even remember what it is called .

Anyway, yes NowherMan6, I use Baking Soda. After each water change I add about 2tsp of baking soda to the tank to increase my KH which is normally from the tab about 1 KH .

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 20:58Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by nowherman6
Yeah Bensaf, not Wayne. I'm such a suck up


Well he did give you mad props on your tank, so you owe him some serious rear-end smooching.

There really is no way with a color strip IMO to know exactly what your ph is, so as I showed if the true number is off a little from your test kit than it could mean a big difference in the co2 number, so yeah look at the fish. I could tell you I have constant stream of bubbles and my fish are all looking fine and my tank is 2 feet shorter than LF.


It just seems like test kits are useless if you're right. I mean what's the point? Is there even a range within which they're accurate?

For example, my ph test kit shows that before lights out, ph is 6.2 or under - it's a very light yellow. At first I was shocked by this because that would mean my CO2 is in the 90ppm range and my fish should be dead. But they're fine, no gasping at the surface at all, except for some normal gourami air breating. I'm even getting algae growth and my plant growth has slowed down considerably. There clearly isn't too much CO2, maybe even not enough according to the plants... but the test kit says otherwise. How would you advise proceeding?

All this test kit stuff has got me bothered. I'm afraid to even test my phosphates now...


EDIT: Thanks LF. My kH is also low, it's a 2. I may do the same to bump it up a bit. And I don't mean to hijack your thread with the above, it just seemed like an appropriate place to ask because the subject was breached earlier.


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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 21:01Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
NowherMan6,
so you owe him some serious ...


Talking about test kits is not highjacking at all, this is right on topic.

Just like an addict, when I have problems in the tank then I dig out the ole test kit and measure like a madman .

Although I have to say that this time around I measured P, N, ph, and KH exactly once.

I was not going for absolute numbers but rather for comparison to measurements over the last 22 weeks, in good times and in bad (yes, I am married to the tank ). When looking at the recent values I only find one that is not the same then when I was almost algae free, and that is P.

Besides these measurement, the only other differences are:

- more fish
- less plants
- plants not established

Heck, besides the hardware and the substrate the whole tank has changed .

Can't be that hard to pinpoint the reason for the darn thread

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 21:33Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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See that's the danger If your ph is 6.2 and your kh is 2 you have a co2 of 38ppm not 90ppm.

If your ph was 6.0 and your kh still 2 than you have a co2 of 60pmm, big difference.

Now if your ph is 6.0 and your kh is 3, now you have a co2 ppm of 90. Wht if your kh is really 2.5, see what I mean.





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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 21:37Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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more fish
less plants
plants not established


So what's the problem .
Waste, Mass and all that ....light. Now repeat after me "Sung to the tune of all the Jazz" Waste, mass and all that light, waste, mass and all that light.

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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 21:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Now if your ph is 6.0 and your kh is 3, now you have a co2 ppm of 90. Wht if your kh is really 2.5, see what I mean.


Exactly, that's why I'm mad as heck about these test kits, I have no idea. The shade of yellow is between the shades on the chart. Impossible to know.Any more of this and I'm going to just crank the CO2, test kits be damned. I'm almost at the breaking point.


Waste, Mass and all that ....light. Now repeat after me "Sung to the tune of all the Jazz" Waste, mass and all that light, waste, mass and all that light.


Tetra, you've clearly gone mad with power due to the success of your tank. Come down from the edge....


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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 21:51Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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due to the success of your tank


Well, it is a pretty tank I have to say

But don't worry, I assume it is just a question of time until the S hits the F . The Wisteria will revolt and decides that it deserves to be the tallest plant in the tank. The Riccia will have enough of being put in a hairnet and cuts itself lose. The oh so secret Stellata turns into a bean stalk, and the Star Grass into mush because it can't stand the dancing in front of the tank.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 22:12Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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A guy posts some pics of his tank and the master makes some nice comments and this is what I get:

Oh tetra, when your tank is covered in slimy brown staghorn and thread alage we'll look back and say that your hubris was your downfall. Reminds me of that famous ending line in Oedipus rex
.

But don't worry, I assume it is just a question of time until the S hits the F . The Wisteria will revolt and decides that it deserves to be the tallest plant in the tank. The Riccia will have enough of being put in a hairnet and cuts itself lose. The oh so secret Stellata turns into a bean stalk, and the Star Grass into mush because it can't stand the dancing in front of the tank.


And I thought wes were friends Don't worry you protists lovers, I'll get even

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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 23:09Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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What do you expect, you're the best of the best now. reminds me of that Far Side cartoon about the cowboy ping-pong players. The old grizzled vet goes "well kid, ya beat me - but now every paddle packin' player in the west lookin to make a name for himself is gonna come lookin' for you - welcome to hell, kid!" (please tell me I'm not the only one who likes the Far Side... )

Well tetra, every foreceps packin' plant person from Queensland to Queens, NY is gonna come lookin for ya...




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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 23:18Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
upikabu
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You guys are seriously cracking me up!

Seriously though, I think tetra (aka grand wizard, mr. all that, etc. ) has a point about lights. In my tanks I've observed that as soon as I upgrade them to the higher light territory (>2.5wpg), there's a very delicate balance between good plant growth and algae appearance (which I haven't quite figured out yet ), all factors (plant mass, fish mass, ferts, CO2) being equal (or similar). In my lower light tanks, I get little to no visible algae, and even when I do, it's easily fixed. With higher light, there's less margin for error, so to speak.

Then again, maybe I'm still dreaming (just got up).

-P
Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 23:59Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Nowher


I guess I'll have to be really careful what I say, cause you all will be gunning for me at the Fish Profile Corral.


Upikabu,
100% correct with the lighting. I mean if you have enough plants and the conditions are good the plants will take advantage of the extra light and grow better, but if the other conditions aren't "upgraded" to take advantage of the new light then that's a big crack for the protist army to march on Rome. Speaking of Rome, I hung up a pic of ChaosMaximus's tank as motivation to keep up with my maintenance and fert schedule. I think if nowher and LF hang up his pic too, they'll feel a whole lot better about their tanks. Sorry Chaos




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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 00:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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We all know that EI says a tenth of N in P (20ppm N and 2ppm P) should be more then the plants can "eat". There seems to be zero advantage (and maybe loads of disadvantages) to being over that level. So, why would I dose any, even tiny, amount?


There's no way you will find that sweet spot in the dosing routine if you stop, start, stop, start. You will be condemned to eternal suffering not knowing how much to dose. I'd say that if you want to go ahead and zero the tank for the next two weeks, just start up with really slow dosing from there, like I said as little as .15ppm a day If you think that's all your plants need beyond what's in the tap. I'm only going to test until I figure out how much I need beyond what's in the tap.


IMO, Test kits are good enough to be taken with a grain of salt. The NO3 and PO4 test kits can be "calibrated" by testing them with a known solution made using Chuck's calculator. Tom Barr has done all the research to show us we don't need exact values for this stuff anyways. This is only to double check our work. First, we have Tom's work to show us with the use of large water changes, an average can be maintained. Then we have the plants to show us if something is amiss. And lastly we have the test kits to explain maybe why something is up.

I feel your pain with the pH test kits, Nowherman. These things are awful hard to read. If the color in the tube is between colors in the chart, then the number is between those. But I have a hard time telling which colors it's inbetween. I had a thread about a week ago about getting a pH controller(By the way LF I'll give you $50 for that thing). The thing with this is that we do want to be exact, and IMO the resolution on the liquid test kits is nowhere near where we need it to be. This is due to the logarithmic nature of the pH scale. A small difference and you can be WAAAAY off.

Oh, and did someone say
St. Louis Blues....
?(sorry I had to)



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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients
Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 00:59Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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How would you advise proceeding?


How to proceed without test kits is easy enough. Just add a known quantity of nutrients each week. Then you are in control.

Observing the tank will pretty much show the rest.

Plants like Hygro will show N and K deficiencies very quickly. Holes in old leaves will show lack of K, fall off or yellowing of old leaves will show a lack of N. Plants like Mayacca or red plants will show FE levels by their color.
Want to be sure the Co2 is good. Keep upping it until the fish show a sign of dis-comfort then pull it back just a notch. Or watch the growth, speed size etc, appearance of green spot or BBA will indicate the Co2 is not as good as it should be.
Still getting green spot algae P can be pushed higher.

The test kits are inaccurate to start with, the color charts are difficult to read etc.

Look at the difference in the color and growth in tetras tank (envy is a terrible things boys, leave him be ) since he added more nutrients.

Matty makes a good point that constant chopping and changing of routines is bad for both the tank and you. Stability is important for the tank, constant change makes it diffult to pinpoint issues, you get lost easily.

Usually upping things solve problems, reducing rarely does, more often then not it creates new problems.

I'm sure LF's problems are temporary. Theres a big job done, lot's of mulm kicked in the water. Mulm will cause problems, a big clean up should be done at least once a year. BGA for example can use it for carbonate. I didn't like the daily dosing routine.

I'm sure by upping the N (as a reference to above, his reineckii was doing bad, it's doing better now since he added more N, I'm telling you from experience that if N is low eineckii will stunt and twist and curl it's leaves like nobody, give it N and it'll right itself easy enough. See I do pay attention These are the little things I always look for when somebody is having a problem. I don't go for the fanciful theories. Sometimes you guys can't see the woods for the trees, except for tetra of course, he's great ), keeping the Co2 up and keeping everything stable will stop it. In the meantime hassle it. Remove what you can, Excel blast the rest.


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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 04:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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envy is a terrible things boys, leave him be


Would it be too awful of a pun to say that I'm literally green with envy over Tetra's tank?

Seriously though, he's come a long way following EI, certainly a far cry from turning the old 46 into a brewery tank. He certainly found his way to the path we're all looking for. We owe him a Guiness, or at least a Murphy's

Oh, and I guess we owe Tom Barr one too, for ya know, coming up with the whole EI thing...

I just tossed my pH kit in the garbage with some plant clippings. We'll see where this goes.

Oh and Matty- great to see another hockey fan on the boards Tough going for your Blues right now...


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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 05:22Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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you get lost easily
Sure do

Well, this was fun again

Anyway,

- I am back on the bi-daily fert routine with macros one and micros the other day, so that should give more stability (although I am most certain that it was Bensaf who once told me that going to daily would be more stable .
- I don't think I can (or want to) do too much about the light as I have the second row on for 3 hours only. I think in this phase my plants need it to re-establish themselves. Half the light is only around 1.5wpg.
- Removing much of the existing algae creates a problem on the Helferi as I would have to cut off almost all leaves. Same counts for the Red Rubin Sword and half the Anubias leaves. How would I go about the wood and rock algae? Take a pad and rub it as good as I can? I cannot remove these entities.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 12:24Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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certainly a far cry from turning the old 46 into a brewery tank
Had to get that jab in didn't ya nowher.

Since you brought it up, here's a pic of me attempting to make black and tans in my kitchen. I think we should have a horror tank thread rated "r" for revolting. I think this pic would quality and I could name a few others


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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 15:11Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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How would I go about the wood and rock algae? Take a pad and rub it as good as I can? I cannot remove these entities.


Yes, you should be able to get one of those algae scrubber pads pretty cheap. Just be gentle and try not to rock the boat too much and it should come off.

As for the leaves, maybe take as much by hand and then... well, in theory, shouldn't the algae just die off as conditions improve

Had to get that jab in didn't ya nowher.


It wasn't a jab, it's one of my favorite FP member incidents. I didn't think it was as funny until I actually did DIY co2 myself and you realize the mix actually smells just like beer.

Great idea for a thread, start it up in GF


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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 15:23Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Yeah,

I guess looking at my tank at this stage and then comparing it to others (like the brewery above, for example) should make me feel better as it really isn't all that bad

But speaking off bad, or what not. I was thinking about lights and nutrients and what not this morning on the bus to work and I remembered an old entry from Bensaf where he reacted to my mass-interference (changing 15 things at the same time) by saying that even if the situation is improving I would never know why. So true

As such, it seems to be actually a good idea that the only parameter that I am changing right now is Phosphates. If it doesn't help, oh well - at least we can explicitly eliminate this one from the culprit list. Which reminds me - You all seem to agree that lowering my P the way I do it would not be good. I really would appreciate if you could help me out and answer the following questions:

1) Did you ever have knowingly 5ppm (or more) of P in your tank?
2) If so, did you have more algae than usual at that time?
3) Hypothetically speaking, plants take up nutrients. Do you belive they would take up more P when there are 5ppm in the water rather than 2ppm?
4) If not, why would it matter in what form a reduction of P is achieved (stop of adding P vs. adding tiny amounts)?

This are my nagging questions, I hope you don't mind

Thanks in advance,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 15:33Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
How would I go about the wood and rock algae? Take a pad and rub it as good as I can? I cannot remove these entities

I'm looking for a smily with a violin, but I can't find one. Not to rub it in, but all my hardscape is
removable

Bu seriously, how come you don't have a bigger clean up crew in your tank, I know it's not going to solve the problem. Will the gourmai and/or rainbows eat them. Supposely Cherry shrimps eat a wide variety of algae and are very durable.

Edit: Nowher I think I will start that thread, it can even be a poll, like most horrific tank situation.

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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 15:39Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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EditedEdited by bensaf
A thread of horrors, now there's one thread were I wouldn't have a suitable photo

Without trimming the leaves , try applying the Ecel onto the algae directly using a syringe.

1) Did you ever have knowingly 5ppm (or more) of P in your tank?

I have never owned a phosphate test kit. I have never tested for phosphate. I have no idea how much phosphate I have. It could be 1ppm , it could be 10ppm.I do know I add about 5ppm a week ! That's all I really need to know. I used to have to clean the glass a couple a times a week. I hardly ever clean it now.
2) If so, did you have more algae than usual at that time?

Dunno, can somebody post a photo of algae, I've forgotten what it looks like
I do know that green spot algae disappeared when I added a lot of P and was never replced by any other forms.

3) Hypothetically speaking, plants take up nutrients. Do you belive they would take up more P when there are 5ppm in the water rather than 2ppm?

You miss a very important point about nutrients. Don't obsess on uptake rates or what's left behind. It doesn't matter if growth is fast or slow. It doesn't matter if the tank is full of heavy nutrient consuming plants or slow low consuming ones 9once the tank is established). It doesn't matter if there's an excess of 1 ppm or 5ppm of P. What is vital is that there is non limiting growth, whether it be fast or slow. It's niches. Non limiting growth leaves no room for algae. Repeat after me algae do not need an excess of nutrients It's illogical. They need a gap, an opening. Non limiting growth of plants keeps this door firmly shut.

The only way to be certain that you have non limiting conditions is to add the nutrients yourself. Regularly. Keep the door shut. No need for test kits.With kits there will always always be a degree of uncertainty. By adding the nutrients you remove that uncertainty.

By changing things slowly and allowing things to develop you can focus in on issues.

Ladies and gentlemen,Elvis has left the building



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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 16:04Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Interesting, LF and Nowher are both from Jersey.
O.K. we'll have to work around it. Do everything Bensaf has described but use bottled water from this point forward.


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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 16:31Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Gang,

Don't misunderstand my questions about this P thing as me trying to argue just for the argument sake. I really try to understand it. So please bear with me, if you have to give me the ole Violin so be it, but keep an open mind here. Call it my inexperience, or my tendency to take words in a foreign language (yes, remember - this is my second language) too literally, but I see nobody here who knows of having 5ppm of P and had no algae issues with it. Or call me crazy, I don't mind as long as you at least try to understand where I am coming from with this stuff.

Here are some extracts from Tom Barr's Estimative Index:

"Old myths still abound claiming excess PO4 in tap water causes algae, this has clearly been shown by many hobbyist to be patently false. The tap water has nutrients in it, then you do not have to dose these nearly as much, this is actually a good thing! Why take something out and then add it back again?"

He is not saying how much is considered excess that would not cause algae, though. But he says that if it is in the tab water then you don't have to add it (as much).

Then, in his section about recommended values:

"PO4 range 1.0-3.0 ppm"

And he continues:

"I have added to almost 3ppm of PO4 consistently week after week. Plant's response is incredible." And he says "At some point the plants will not take up any more traces. Same can be said for PO4."

Take the last statement and tag on Bensaf's statement of "Repeat after me algae do not need an excess of nutrients It's illogical. They need a gap, an opening. Non limiting growth of plants keeps this door firmly shut."

Wouldn't that be the opening? Tom never speaks of more than 3ppm of P, and he mentions that there is an uptake limit. The gap between that limit and the currently available 5ppm is the gap, the opening.

Further, Tom writes:

"By knowing what the tap water is comprised of and giving the water company a call to find out what the PO4, NO3, K, and Fe levels are, you can replace the water with water changes and use plain old chemistry or Chuck's calculator to figure out what you need for your nutrient levels without a test kit."

OK - P in my tab is 2ppm, right within his range. The conclusion would be that additional P is only required if P falls based on uptake. This is further supported by his next statement:

"The other issue about folks that often do not add macro nutrients/traces etc, is many do large water changes. These folks often do not know what their tap water has in it. If it is rich in NO3 and PO4 like many regions of the USA and Europe, then each week they do a large water change, they are adding nutrients and CO2. People wondered why my plants did so well with the water changes I did each week and when they tested found high levels of PO4, I was adding KNO3 and lots of traces and high light and high trace dosing and had no algae and dramatic plant health and growth."

But he ends with a comment in a question that states (well known to all of us, as Bensaf uses this as his punch line ): "It assumes that deficencies, not excess causes algae." Bu yet again, he never spoke of more than 3ppm of P.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 18:10Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by tetratech
LF,

Three interesting paragraphs pulled from the EI Article.

"truthfully do not know what levels of NO3 and PO4 (for example) cause problems for plants or induce algae in a fully planted tank. NO3 levels above 40ppm can cause fish health issues. PO4 at very high levels can influence alkalinity (KH) above 5ppm-10ppm."
Has your KH been influenced?

"It is one of the biggest unknown variables in keeping planted tanks, watts/gallon does not tell you much, but rough guides are fine if the aquarist maintain the CO2 and nutrient levels well....An important aspect of this method is the knowledge that excess nutrients do not cause algae blooms as so many authors in the past and many today still maintain without having tested this critically in aquariums with a healthy plant biomass. It is a welcomed relief knowing that “excess” phosphate, nitrate and iron do not cause algae blooms."
Key word here "healthy plant biomass". So here he does leave the door open about excess nutrients and plant mass.

"For many years this has been the assumption but it is incorrect. Ammonium (NH4+) at low levels have been the primary causative agent for algae blooms in terms of an "excess" nutrient. This is why a planted tank using CO2 with moderate to high lighting cannot have enough nitrogen supplied by adding progressively more and more fish to the tank without getting algae blooms. It does not take much ammonium to cause the bloom. If you add NO3 from KNO3 you will not get any algae bloom, if you add even 1/20th of the ammonium you will get a very intense algae bloom. This test can be repeated many times and ran again and again with the same result. Adding NO3 will not induce the bloom."
You already know this, but you added more fish and decreased plant mass.

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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 20:17Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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You already know this, but you added more fish and decreased plant mass.


Very interesting. LF, have you in fact checked for ammonia in your tank?


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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 20:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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You know what? I haven't tested for Ammonia in ages.

I assumed that the fish I physically added are nothing compared to the fish that are in there already. And these have been upping the biofilter gradually as they started of tiny (and small in numbers) and gradually increased in size (and numbers).

I will check tonight

Thanks,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 21:03Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Yes, good idea Nowher you should definitely check, but just becuase your "test kit" doesn't detect anything doesn't mean there isn't enough there to feed algae. I think that is in the EI article as well, that the level might be so small.

BTW - LF, contribute to the new thread
http://www.fishprofiles.com/forums/thread.aspx?id=27413&rp=2

If you have anything

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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 22:07Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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tetratech,

You really created the thread, that's cool .

I will see if I have a good picture that would make an impression and post it. Can't wait until Chaos adds his picture .

I will measure tonight, as promised, but I also guess that I will not get any reading for Ammonia (or hope that I don't). I can imagine that I have upset the biofilter big time during my overhaul and what I have now is still the afterburner of that event.

Thanks,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 22:35Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
luvmykrib
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If a deficiency of phosphate causes algae, then how come I am not seeing lots of algae? My last test showed .5 ppm P. That's a far cry from 5 ppm! I have since added the NPK that I have, the nitrate at last test was 10 ppm, so I should now have 13.5 ppm, according to the dosing info. It may be a bit less, it may be a bit more, but I may still be short on P, would adding more food help? I'm sure the fish would enjoy it!

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Post InfoPosted 02-Mar-2006 01:09Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Wouldn't that be the opening? Tom never speaks of more than 3ppm of P, and he mentions that there is an uptake limit. The gap between that limit and the currently available 5ppm is the gap, the opening.


That wouldn't qualify as a gap. The nutrients are present all the time whether it be 1ppm or 5ppm. So there's no opening there.
The opening is when something is limiting plant growth. Think of it kind of like a predator constantly circling a herd waiting for a sick, weak or old prey to seperate from the herd, then he strikes. Doesn't make any difference whether there's 10 antelope or 100, he needs to wait for the sick weak one.
Even a small amount (a smidgen maybe ? ) of NH4 is an opening.

Note too when Tom talks about excesses it's never regarding algae issues, never. It's plant/fish toxicity, it's about causing changes in water parameters etc , but never algae.

Even if your tap is 2ppm of P you'll still need some. The uptake per week should be about 3ppm , so you'll s



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luvmykrib - If your P should be really low then you will for sure get algae, now that you have more light and DIY CO2 (if I remember that right), just give it some time

Bensaf - Makes sense. Well, let me take your uptake number of 3ppm per week. I will measure what P is tomorrow and see how much has been tanken up. My uptake for sure did take a big hit with the replant a few weeks back. I guess this was the opening then. Thanks

In general, I did measure and lucky didn't come up with any detectable Ammonia. Yeah, I know, there still may be some small amounts (like a nip ), but at least I am not off the scale.

Thanks again all for hanging in there with my nagging P questions,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 02-Mar-2006 11:43Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
luvmykrib
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0.5 ppm PO4, is it really low? I was reading the Tom Barr EI article and that's right in the range, is there somewhere else where he says more is better? If so, what should I be aiming for? I have only green spot algae, a tiny bit of staghorn in my 25g, more staghorn and green spot in the 10g though.

Side question, what causes black beard algae and what makes it go away? I'm asking for my brother's 55g which has the stuff in it. Low-light, some plants, 2-3 years old, fairly well maintained, he's doing weekly water changes now.

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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
luvmykrib,

0.5ppm is really low when you want to maintain a 10 to 1 balance of N to P and strive for 20ppm of N. That's at least the values I am playing with at this high tech / high light tank. Your algae (and your brothers) is most likely from a nutrient imbalance. Did you ever see This Page? It shows you some info about what algae is caused by what. BBA has an entry that says it is based on high P, but that has to be put in relation to N, as your P might be just right but N might be too low (and K and micros, of course).

Hope this helps

Anyway - I had the day off and what else is there to do when it is cold outside than tank maintenance? As such I did my weekly water change on all 3 tanks and will create my weeky update today rather than tomorrow or on Sunday.

Weekly Tank Update - Week 23

The last week has seen very little to no action. I just let the plants grow, added my ferts (no P) and food, and that was it. Pretty much all week was spent on discussing how much of P is right . The plants have been doing fine and it seems the spread of thread algae is beginning to slow down or even stop (or I just got used to it). I needed to trim the Star Grass and was immediately reminded of tetratech's first attemp which concluded with bad growth for a while. As such I trimmed it only a little, just enough to allow the water to flow over it.

So, with many more words, here are 3 totals over the last 4 weeks for comparison purposes. This is the tank 4 weeks ago when the current layout was just created:

Attached Image:

Week 19, new Layout



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LITTLE_FISH
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In week 21, 2 weeks later, some plants startedt show nice signs of growth. Others, like the Macandra, started to lose leaves and others, like the Helferi showed a major increase in thread algae:

Attached Image:

Week 21



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LITTLE_FISH
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Today, another 2 weeks later, the Star Grass is still growing strong and the Pearl Grass is picking up the pace as well. Algae is still a subject though. I also did not have another major loss of leaves on the Crypt Retrospiralis anymore, only a few melted this week:

Attached Image:



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LITTLE_FISH
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Here is a close-up of the Alternanthera showing us how beatiful pink-purple the underside of its leaves can be.

Also, have a look at the vertical leaf on the left side and how it is covered in thread algae. That is a leaf from the Red Rubin Sword

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Alternanthera



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LITTLE_FISH
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This close-up is for all the old and new friends of Amano Pearl Grass (right upikabu ). It is the group that grows right in front of the big branch in the middle of the tank. Some branches are growing straight up while others prefer to crawl along the substrate.

I guess if I would cut off the tall branches I could achieve a nice carpet effect with the crawlers, like the Dr. does.

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Pearl Grass



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LITTLE_FISH
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And last but not least:

Who says I am fat?

Seriously, the question here is if it is normal that some Otos are so much bigger than others, or if this indicates that the top right one is a female.

I thought it is a nice shot:

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Oto and Oto and OOOOto



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Ingo - interesting to see the pearl grass crawling across the substrate. Do they actually send the horizontal runners themselves, or did you something special (e.g. tetra dance ) to encourage it?

Nice fat otto. I assume they have plenty to eat in your tank - you only have 6 right? Your tank can probably feed triple that amount without a hitch. The 3 otos in my 23g are even fatter than yours, plenty of protists to eat I guess.

Cheers!

-P
Post InfoPosted 04-Mar-2006 01:20Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Seriously, the question here is if it is normal that some Otos are so much bigger than others, or if this indicates that the top right one is a female.


Interesting. I have one that's the same way fatter then all the others. So much so I thought it was bloat, but it's been that fat for over a year now and still going, so it must be just obesity or a sexual difference. All the others are much slimmer.


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No, I didn't do anything to tame the Pearl Grass, it decided to grow this way all on its own. As to why - I have no idea.

The Otos are a miracle. Why would some under the same conditions (age, food source, tank) become so much fatter than others. I can't imagine it would have anything to do with alpha males as food is available all over the tank.

Ingo


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Female.
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Wingsdlc
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Producing eggs then?

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19G Container Pond
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Cup_of_Lifenoodles
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Perhaps, but in general, they are already likely quite wide. As with all loricariidae, they reabsorb any eggs not laid.
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very interesting!

So LF where are the weekly pictures??

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luvmykrib
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I have been thinking about the P issue. Here's my thought, excess P and low light, no CO2 may cause BBA, it has in my 10g. In Ingo's tank, excess P and high light and CO2 cause...flowers! In terrestrial plants, the nutrient that encourages blooming is phosphate. Nitrogen makes things green, phosphate makes things bloom and potassium makes roots grow. How different can aquatic plants be from that?
Anyway, now that it is out of my head and here in print I can get some other deep thinking done. Like why no-one has visited me in my thread lately, it's so lonely there.

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Here's my thought, excess P and low light, no CO2 may cause BBA,


Low Co2 and unstable (either high or low) Co2 will cause BBA. In a non Co2 injected tank , water changes will provide the unstable Co2 levels.

Never known P to have any role in the appearance of BBA.

KH, lots of mulm will have a bigger role. BBA is very good at grabbing the small amount of carbon it needs from carbonate and organic matter.

Algae seems to be lousy at using inorganic sources of nutrients such as that in the KNO3 and KH2PO4 we use.


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luvmykrib
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EditedEdited by luvmykrib
Taken from a page on Chuck Gadd's site, courtesy of the link Ingo posted.

Red algae: Also called Black Beard Algae (bba), or Black Brush Algae. Short hairs (1/4" long), closely packed together. Appears dark green, black, or dark red. Grows on plant leaves, and sometimes on decorations/substrate. Often grows all around the edges of plant leaves.
BBA thrives in situations of high phosphates. Phosphates come from fish waste, excess food, and occasionally will be present in the water supply. The best way to eliminate BBA is to let the plants out-compete the algae for the nutrients.



In heavily planted tanks, BBA will often show up when the plants have used up all the nitrates. This causes plant growth to slow or stop, which leaves the excess phosphates available to the algae. By supplying extra Nitrate to a planted tank, we allow plant growth to continue until all phosphate is consumed. Then plant AND algae growth will slow/stop. As long as a usable (5-10ppm) level of Nitrate is maintained, the the plants will continue to use up the available phosphate, effectively controls BBA and other phosphorus-dependant algaes. See the article "Adding Nitrate to a Planted Tank" for detailed instructions on how to increase your Nitrate levels.


Thus excess of P will cause BBA, when there is not enough nitrate. I added both nitrate and phosphate together and now have BBA in my 10g tank. This tank has no CO2, has 1.5 wpg, and is pretty fully stocked. There was no BBA before the addition of the NPK. My 25 on the other hand has .5ppm of P, better light, 2.5 wpg, CO2 at a steady level and no BBA.
But really, my idea was more that Ingo seems to get flowers more often than anyone else and it could be the P that is making it happen. He must have a good balance of nutrients including P to make the plants bloom the way they do. Have to admit I'm jealous and am starting to beg my anubiuas to put out even a little flower!

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speaking of flowering plants. I have had two crypts flower at work. All I give them is some excel every other day.


55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
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luvmykrib
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I knew someone else had them flower, couldn't remember who. What's the PO4 level in your tanks that have had flowers? Any idea? It's just a theory based on what I have learned from gardening, I thought I would put it out there and see if anyone could absolutely rule it out. Finding the right balance and maintaining it would be a trick, although I don't worry overmuch about my land plants, they flower for the most part, but lawn grass can be brought into bloom by adding fertilizer with more P in it, fall fertilizer generally has more k and spring fertilizer has the most N.

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I have no idea how much P the tanks at work have in them. I only way they are getting it is from fish food because I don't thing the kool steril system lets that through but i could be wrong.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
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luvmykrib
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Fish food, fish poop, are just 2 ways of P getting in, water changes if it's in the water supply is another way. Generally store tanks are overstocked and over filtered to compensate, but they must still get some P build-up, I don't think UV gets rid of it, but I could be wrong on that. My water supply from the city goes through UV and it still gets to me with a hardness of 300, and who knows what else.

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UV generally removes only organic contaminants such as bacterium. Hardness salts should remain unaffected.
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luvmykrib
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Does it also remove phosphates?


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