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  L# LITTLE_FISH 125G Log
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SubscribeLITTLE_FISH 125G Log
LITTLE_FISH
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And here is our old cat resting on the above mentioned chair (and towels).

He would also be the reason why an open tank in our household is not a good idea .

Ingo

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Not much new to report,

Except maybe that I am switching to daily fert addition.

I add 1/4tsp KNO3, 1/16tsp Potassium Sulfate, and 10ml of TMG every day since Saturday after the water change.

I am wondering if it makes a difference if ferts are added in the morning or the evening.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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I am wondering if it makes a difference if ferts are added in the morning or the evening
Are you experimenting just for the hell of it or are you trying to correct a problem (hair algae).

I still think you have less room for error because of your light. Not that it's ridiculously high, but it is very high given the tank size. Doesn't Amano only use like 1.5 to 2 wpg on his big tanks. As I said before you have double the light I have for the same depth. I do think you plants grow faster than mine, probably because of the higher light, but with that comes less wiggle room for things like fish waste, etc.

Interesting though that you get thread algae, nowher and I get GW and Bensaf get's nothing. If you could figure that out :%)

BTW - Nice kitty, looks like he/she is guarding the tank or waiting for the fish to get bigger.

Last edited by tetratech at 03-Jan-2006 08:49

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Interesting though that you get thread algae, nowher and I get GW and Bensaf get's nothing. If you could figure that out



Interesting indeed. Sometimes I get the feeling that it all comes down to the fact that when he started his tank he stuffed it full of plants right off the bat, while we all waited for ours to grow in. We all dose pretty much the same way in a method that's shown to keep algae down, but I think maybe it was those first few critical days/ weeks where the tanks were settling in that made the difference. That's why I'm anxious to start a small tank (5-7gals... once Christmas gifts are paid off ) because it's easier to stuff a small tank than a large tank. If it turns out relatively algae free then maybe that'll provide a bit more insight into keeping tanks relatively algae free no matter what the size.


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Oh, and I also forgot to add... I hate to beat a dead horse but...




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Last edited by NowherMan6 at 03-Jan-2006 08:58
[/font]


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Nowher,
Yes I agree with the plant mass at the start, not only does it add in fert suck up more importantly nh3 as well. Basically Bensaf started off with a much bigger biofilter than anyone else.

As far as the Driftwood I think LF gets the "Drift". For the time being if it was me I would just put the coffee table into the tank.

My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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LF,

I have some 2x4's laying around you can have..........

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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You guys are too much

Yes, I get the drift, and I am even willing to pay a commission to anybody who finds me the right pieces of qualified driftwood.

The “new” ideas about the fertilizing routine are more of theoretical nature, although I wouldn’t mind if the remaining thread algae would disappear in the process. My thoughts are:

- Fertilizing daily creates a more balanced environment for nutrient availability. I just have not done that before because the Plantex was so hard to dissolve (as I probably added way too much anyways).
- What happens with nutrients at nighttime? Most likely nothing, I doubt that any organism (or filter media) would use them up while the lights are out. But if so then dosing in the morning would be an advantage.

The cat is an old man, he is about 14 years old and way too lazy to jump on the big tank. But a Nano, well that is another story .

Amano has on tanks of my size about 3wpg running for about 10 to 12 hours, only really big tanks have maybe 2 to 2.5 (at least that was what I calculated). Also, he never mentions any short bright light time which makes me believe his full lights are on for the full duration.

I guess this coming weekend I will create a major open space in the middle of the tank and sink the coffee table .

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Just for the fun of it,

Here is a picture of the 2 Anubias Barteri that I have on the left side of my tank.

Count them, there are EIGHT flowers, some coming, some in full bloom, and some going

Ingo

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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And as a reminder,

Soon it is going to be time for this guy (and his girl) to come home to the big tank

Ingo

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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nowher and I get GW and Bensaf get's nothing.


Hmmm....I wouldn't quite say that. I get some, everyone does, just very very little so it's almost invisible.

Oh, dear I can hear the illusions shattering from here

The Ottos must be eating something, I don't feed 'em. I've got a Hillstream Loach for over a year that I've never even see swim much less eat. I get the occassional green spot on the glass if I let PO4 drop. I had a bad dose of Brown Algae when I changed over the tank recently. Silica Sand , to be expected.I just let it burn itself out.

With regard to the lighting. Amano is quite clear that he only runs the full lights for a few hours a day. The rest of the time all his tanks are basically low light.The exception being his very small tanks which he runs about 6 wpg.

Getting in on the horse flogging - try florida driftwood. I still think you should get a pile of so-so pieces and just build them up.

Also plants consume nutrients 24/7.They still work at night. Actually they do MOST of their growing at night - check your tank first thing in the morning and you'll see the spurts. It doesn't matter when you add the ferts as long as they are there, whenever is convenient.

Last edited by bensaf at 03-Jan-2006 21:19


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks Bensaf for the input,

Yeah yeah, it is always nice to have 3 guys on your back telling you to get some driftwood

Believe me, I am on that website at least once a week.

And Bensaf and algae – I think he only says that to make us feel better

Bensaf – where does Amano state that he runs his tanks with full light only part of the time? I haven’t seen this reference yet. All he says in his books is the wattage and duration, no mention of staging (although I might be wrong as I read them maybe 2 months ago and I am an old man and might have forgotten what I read ).

Thanks again,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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I get some, everyone does, just very very little so it's almost invisible
ah ha! I knew it That's why I never saw more pictures of your Bensaf does Amano Paradise Utopia Eden Aquatic Forest Setup :%)

Actually they do MOST of their growing at night - check your tank first thing in the morning and you'll see the spurts.
That is so true and I was going to post this question, when I wake up I swear my Stargrass looks like it grew 3 or 4 inches.

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Actually they do MOST of their growing at night - check your tank first thing in the morning and you'll see the spurts.



Yeah, so true. I swear my green water looks so much more lush and juicy in the morning, it's incredible.


But seriously, considering how easy it is for algae to use nutrients of course there's going to be SOME, but I think we were referring to the problems, the outbreaks, the explosions - THAT'S what Bensaf never gets, the bad stuff! I still personally think it's because he started out right.


Back in the saddle!
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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My problem is that I rarely see my tank in the mornings. When I leave the house it is dark in the basement and I don't want to turn on any lights so the fish get their well needed rest (with all that breeding going on).

I will have to check the night-growth out on the coming weekend .

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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That's why I never saw more pictures of your Bensaf does Amano Paradise Utopia Eden Aquatic Forest Setup


Ohhhh...sounds like a challenge


Guess I'll have to post a pic tomorrow

I've resisted meddling with this one, letting everything grow in. Still not there yet, maybe 85%. Then again my 85% is probably way better then somes 100% ........


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Bensaf,

I am always happy when you post a picture, not only when you are challenged to do so .

We need to see way more of your tanks so we can learn from the visual experience as well as your writing.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Ohhhh...sounds like a challenge
Whatever it takes

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Guess I'll have to post a pic tomorrow


Well, today is tomorrow, isn't it?

no pic here

Ingo




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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Ok you asked for it and here it be....

The right side needs more time. The Uruquaysenis and Narrow Leaf Fern need to fill out more to balance thins.

The left side is a bit off as the Macrandra was over trimmed and needs a bit more height to fill the hole it left

bensaf attached this image:



Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Another

bensaf attached this image:



Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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This is actually my first time to try Glosso. It's working ok. One thing I like - if it hits an obstacle in it's path, it just climbs over it and continues on it's merry way. I've decided to let run rampant and see where it goes.

Here's some climbing over an Erect Moss obstacle.

bensaf attached this image:



Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Well Bensaf,

No disappointment, as usual .

That is what I would call a heavily planted tank, left to right and top to bottom, I love it.

About letting the Glosso run rampant: It will take over your lower plants and kill them off. I find my Glosso to be very intrusive, it climbs all over my rocks and into the moss, if I let it. Also, it managed to grow really dense at the center of a Crypt Wendtii that is now neglecting to put any new leaves out (and grows very slow).
I had my Glosso and Hair Grass fight for space at Rock Valley and guess who won (but maybe I had a bad hair – grass- day )?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Finally we get something from the great Bensaf.

Very lush and beautiful. Nice textures, etc.
I see what you mean about the fullness of the left to the right. I might also have to send you shopping with LF for more substantial dw or you simply need to prune more or I just can't see it in the pic.

Did you remove the Mayacca? One thing I'm not sure about is whether I like the contrast of the sand more than I do the green ground cover.

My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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The “Driftwood War” is getting into full swing

I wouldn’t mind going shopping with Bensaf at all, maybe we could meet somewhere in the middle, like Ireland .

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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I dunno Bensaf, that glosso looks a little leggy to me, maybe you need some pointers on how to really get your plants growing well...


LF, I'm telling you, ebay! ebay! ebay! Morwe driftwood than you'll know what to do with.


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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NowherMan6,

Ah yeah?

I challenge you to find one piece that I would not turn down for one reason or another .

Try me

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Alright then...


http://cgi.ebay.com/UNIQUE-HUGE-DRIFTWOOD-ROCKS-IMBED-Aquarium_W0QQitemZ7735756182QQcategoryZ66790QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

A huge piece, very branchy - I'd cut it up into one large one and several smaller ones. Give it a bleach bath, a scrubbbing, then let it soak in water with Prime... it should be fine.





Back in the saddle!
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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That is a really nice piece and your right about breaking it up.


My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Well NowherMan6,

That took you a long time to find anything, didn't it ?

I have to say that it looks very good, thank you so much (feeling like a looser now because all I always find are silly blocks of wood).

The asking price is also not all that high, I might just place a bid on it. In the worst case it is a learning experience and a small dollar loss.

Thanks again, let me know if you find other jewels like that,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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You're very welcome

There was actually a big piece I saw last week that was just as nice, if not nicer, a nice tall stump/ branchy type thing but it's gone now.

I always cruise ebay for driftwood and the like because I have Mental MTS, which is different that regular MTS. Mental MTS is when you make detailed plans and aquascape layouts in your head for various tanks but never do them, MTS is when you actually do it.

I'm still dreaming of a big 100+ gallon driftwood filled tank featuring a boatload of rams, or a few firemouths or angels and a big ol' school of tetras... a real biotope type thing... but I digress. So yeah, keep an eye out on ebay, lots of good stuff.


Back in the saddle!
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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The advantage of Mental MTS is that it is much cheaper

I just saw that somebody put a bid in for this sucker, I hope it is none of you folks ]:|

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Would I do that?

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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I don’t know, would you?

There is another old saying that goes like:

One cannot trust the upside down – head in tank – goggles on – aquascaper



Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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Dang I thought it was the other way around......... oh NO!!!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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I dunno Bensaf, that glosso looks a little leggy to me, maybe you need some pointers on how to really get your plants growing well...


Cheeky young pup ....


I didn't do anything special. You guys were nagging me so I just grabbed the camera. Unfortunately the Wisteria and Ammania were starting to close up for the night.The photos dark.

Current problems I see-
The Augustifolia and Macrandra need to fill out more to fill that far left side. Another couple of weeks should do that.
The Fern and Uruquay needs a couple more months.
The Wisteria needs to come down and forward a few inches, layered more. Actually I'd like to replace this with Stargrass but still can't find it here for some reason.
The Ammania needs to be sculpted. It's a bit shapeless looking.

I agree with tetra completely. The Glosso was more of a curiosity as I've never tried it before. I think I prefer the open sand look. It had more depth, the Glosso make it look a bit flat.But it can be removed easily enough if I decide to do so.

BTW the Mayacca is still there, between the Wisteria and Ammania but is a lot greener then the last time I posted a pic

The driftwood has been swamped and has lost it's impact. I'm meeting up with Paulus (Upikabu) tomorrow, so I'm sure we'll be hitting a few places with "driftwood mountains", I'll be looking out for a couple of thin branchy bits. I can fit them in nicely without disturbing anything.

I'll be posting some close ups in a seperate thread. I've got some nice hard to find/not so common plants in there, including one so rare in the US most don't even believe it exists. I'm going to post photos and growing parameters/my own experience on each of them.

I can also un-hijack Ingo's thread !


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Bensaf,

Don’t worry about high jacking my thread, we asked for it .

The driftwood has been swamped and has lost it's impact


That is exactly one of my points on finding just the right driftwood. It is rather easy to find one when the scape is designed to not fill out the tank (tetratech), but loads of plants that cover the tank make it hard to have anything (may it be rock or wood, or even a castle) stick out. I see that even in Amano’s tanks that are heavily planted (as in full, not just substrate and some height areas) the wood disappears over time.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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NowherMan6,

What are you getting me into with this driftwood selection?

It is by now already over $50 plus $16 shipping, and over 3 days left on the auction.

See, this is a price range where the wood is should be of good quality, and not only of good size and shape. And quality is one thing you cannot test from looking at a picture. It might have bugs, and fungus, and what not, it might even begin to rot already.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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I'm sorry I ever mentioned it

Hey, I was only trying to help. Considering a piece that size 50 bucks isn't that much, but you're dead on about the quality - from the look of it it looks fine, but I guess you never know. I was always under the assumption that a good bleach scrub would get rid of any critters, but again, you never know.

What can I say, some of us just like to live on the wild side with ebay


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I am a major chicken when it comes to these things

And don’t worry about the additional stress you cause me, if you find more wood then keep on informing me. I will see how high it is a few hours before the auction closes.

With these bidding things on E-Bay: sometimes the price is valid but other times a bidding war starts where one is willing to bid more than someone else simply because that person assumes that the previous bidder must know that the product is good (which is not the case), and so forth.

Ingo


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NowherMan6
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Will do boss

I always stay out of bidding wars. usually I jump on "Buy it now" items if I like them, because then you stay away from all that other nonsense. Keep your eyes open, deals are out there to be had.


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My old boss and his friend used to start their own biddig wars on their items. Just a little bit on the dishonest side. He was the kind of guy to do just about anything for a buck.

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Yeah Wingsdlc,

I was worried about that too, there might be a group of people out there who artificially drive prices up and cause the "if others want it it must be good" assumption.

Ingo


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I am definitely not brave enough to buy anything off ebay. My friend has been having problems with not getting purchases after paying for them. Scary!

Ingo don't let these guys pressure you into getting driftwood just for the sake of having it. When you find the right piece you'll know it and then you'll have it. Just keep your eyes peeled and you'll find it eventually. Personally I think they're jealous of the all green look, you have so much growth it makes their eyes cross with envy and they must nitpick. Myself I'm also jealous but I think I handle it ok.

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Thanks for the support luvmykrib

I am rather sure that the gang actually wants to help me and I appreciate their efforts very much. If we wouldn’t nitpick on each other we would not be able to bring our tanks to the next level. And don’t you worry, I am doing the same to them . And thank you for the compliment; it is always nice to have some feedback.

On a different note:

Just to show you how easy it is to lose stuff in your tank

Besides the hardscape that is visible in the first picture, there have been another 3 massive rocks added to the tank until that second picture was taken.

And all seem to be non-existent

Even the rocks of “Rock Valley” seem to be smaller now. Are they shrinking ?

Ingo

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And don’t you worry, I am doing the same to them
Now I'm in for it.

LF,
That's a great pic of the tank with just the harscape and now. It really is very serene and the grass-like plants were really a good move.

As you probably know I am not a big fan of making the corners of a tank tall. Obviously most people do it to hide equipment, but in doing so it makes the tank look contrived. Sometimes the corners look good full if it works with your setup or if your doing a slope down effect from one corner. If you add some driftwood touches here touches there and group your rotala m. thicker and add more to the left I think you tank will really be . You could always finetune the foreground with more rock, etc.

In terms of equipment you could really hide alot of it behind the apons or eventually eliminate the reactor and heater (visually anyway)


Last edited by tetratech at 06-Jan-2006 12:49

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I love keeping up with this tank! What size and overall shape of driftwood are you looking for. We employees get first crack at these things, you know! I usually buy awesome pieces, even if I have no intention of using it in the immediate future.
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tetratech - Thanks, I am working on it

Tainted Glory - Haven't seen you in a while . I am looking for branchy wood that I could arrange in a group. The ones I get to see in your store (after you guys pick up all the good pieces ) are not suitable. Here is why:

The section of wood that is in the Gravel and Rock isle (Malaysian, I think) has sometimes pieces with the right shape, but too small to make an impact in my tank.

The other pieces that you have in the parts section (usually inside the empty "for sale" tanks) are not suitable as they are too chunky.

Thanks,

Ingo


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A piece like THIS ONE would be great:

Ingo

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Weekly Tank Update – Week 15

I don’t like weekly maintenance and water changes and finally I figured out why: they make you look really close at your tank and any flaw seems major, even if it is not visible from just a yard away. Similar to these cosmetic mirrors that blow up the size of your face and every pore seems giant .

This week’s close-up observation was that my sags and chain swords are still showing some “melting” (see picture after the weekly full tank shots. It also seems that the Apon leaves are getting thinner and more yellowish. Hell, even the Glosso seems to be getting yellow. I believe it must have something to do with my recent mingling with fertilizers. I guess I ran the system to lean, now the question is which one is missing or maybe even what combination is missing. To counteract the melting I added a 3/4 tsp of KNO3 right away, also upped the TMG to a 20ml dosage. The plan for follow-up fertilization will change as follows:

KNO3: from 1/4tsp to 1/2tsp daily
Potassium Sulfate: stays at 1/8 daily
P: from nothing to 1/8 on day 3 and 5
TMG: from 10ml to 15ml daily

Otherwise, the tank is just growing fuller, two stems of the Macandra were trimmed as they reached the surface. Fish seem to be doing great and now that the fry are getting to be adults soon it worries me that I might have too many (not sure though). I might add the Pearls any times soon, although the male is very very territorial in the 20G and at least once in a while chases even the Platies away from the “center stage”. The female seems to be very fond of him as she rather often comes right back to him and offers him her throat and sides which he nips on gently, just to chase her away again afterwards. I figure he is just a teenager and doesn’t know how to treat a lady yet .

Weekly tank photos will be limited to 4, in 5 week increments. Then I have a few close-ups to show.

Ingo

Tank at setup:

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Week 5, pretty full but just the beginning of “having fun”

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Week 10, one of my favorite stages of the tank development, all looks very nice and balanced. Also look at that tiny plant in the front right corner, which is a small piece of Star Grass that I added from the 20G.

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Week 15, this weekend. Look at that front right section again, the Star Grass has grown quite nicely . Rock Valley on the other hand has completely lost the status of “focus point”. The group on the left with the Crypt Retro and Apons has taken all the attention.

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Here is a close-up of the Star Grass, I like it and I wouldn’t mind using it in other spots of the tank as a mid ground group.

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Can you see the bad shape that some of my sags/chain swords are in? Hopefully I can correct that.

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And how can we forget the main attraction in this tank, about 100 of these :

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Has anyone here ever seen plant photos from Robert Mapplethorpe? Anubias flowers really remind me of his art (not that I want to imply my photos are as good as his).

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Now here comes a segment of “Oto Mania”. The good thing about water changes is that I once in a while can count my Otos and check if all 6 are still alive. Now, for the first time, the guys were so nice to pose for a picture together:

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Then they ran off again but at least 5 stayed together for an additional shot:

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Then they changes direction and gave me one more good look before they decided that the party was over :

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Very nice pics LF, I particilarly like the anubias and the oto pics, yes during water changes I have counted all 9 of mine. I guess your having success with stargrass as well. I think the addition of my no3 will make the stargrass leaves even fuller and larger. Here's a pic of your's and mine.



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Yeah, the good old New Jersey Star Grass

I think one of the reasons yours looks fuller might be that:

a) Mine grows in the “low light” area of the tank, far away from the bulbs
b) Mine would look fuller if I had more light on them while taking the picture
c) A combination of a) and b)

But just like you I am scared to mess with the plant. No doubt it does way better when ferts are added and more light is available. The difference of the one in my 20G to this one is amazing, here it looks about 500% better (if such a subjective observation is measurable in the first place). I have a Red Rubin Sword to the right of the Macandra and I don’t think it does too much in my tank. I just might take it out and plant the Star Grass in the right back corner, with shorter elements slightly growing diagonally in front of the Macandra. If I ever dare to mess with the Star Grass, that is .

Another topic: I just fished the 2 Pearls out of the 20G QT (easier than I thought with all the plants in there) and have them in a bag floating in the 125G. I have my fingers crossed that they don’t drive my Espei insane. I guess this will also mean the end of major breeding, but I sure cannot complain about not having enough Espei as it is .

Wish me luck,

Ingo


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Congrats on the big day for the Pearls. I was wondering when you were going to turn them loose. I bet you'll still see fry every now and then, they cant get all of them...


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Thanks NowherMan6,

I have the Pearls in now but I am a little worried as they, naturally, stay in hiding close to the substrate. I am not sure how well (or long) Gouramies can "breath" water alone before they need to go to the surface .

We will see in a few hours.

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Well,

So far so good

It seems like the Pearls are through the worst.
I never felt so emotional when adding a fish to a tank, probably because I had sufficient time to feel attached to these two buggers .

I documented the addition in photos and the whole process up to the last picture took over 4 hours (a mini labor ).

To start off, here they are bagged up and adjusting to the new tank’s water parameters.

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One hour later I added them, they immediately swam to the Macandra and shortly after this picture was taken they disappeared behind it. I got very worried that they might forget to breath.

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Another 2 hours later they came out for the first time, checking out the open space from the security of the Anubias leaves, just to disappear again.

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And another hour later they got a little more daring and started to go on a sightseeing tour. I guess they like Rock Valley .

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Another, and last one for now, shot of the two. It is not hard to identify who is the boss. She is following him wherever he goes. We will see how long it takes until he is ready to take over the tank as a whole. That should guarantee some tight schooling from the Espei .

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Boy your really pushing the post count. At this rate you'll be to 1,000 by 3pm

Very nice pics, I particularly like the one with rock valley© in the back.

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Thanks tetratech,

Yeah, I realize that we are getting close to the 1000th entry. I wonder if the entire site will blow up once this happens .

The Pearls actually still spend quite some time in the “bushes”, but I feel more confident that they will make it.

The big question now is what fish to add next? I am thinking about 2 to 3 True Siamese Algae Eaters. Anyone with any tips on them?

Ingo


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Lookin' good LF! I especially liked the few posts with the ottos. I might have to go get me a few of those, now that I actually have some algae for them to eat.

I'm glad your new guests enjoyed the tour of your tank. My pearl can las quite a while before going up to breathe air. So I wouldn't worry about that.

I remember talking to you about the amount of iron in our micros. I found a new type to use from our store. Only .033% iron in it(as opposed to the .6% or so in Kent's). It's julian Sprung's flora plan. This way I can dose that all the time, and use the Kent's when I need to add some iron.



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NowherMan6
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I am thinking about 2 to 3 True Siamese Algae Eaters. Anyone with any tips on them


Really cool fish, seem great for large tanks. Ive heard them described as 6 inch torpedos when full grown, should be in little shoals too, 4-6. Read up on how to spot the real ones, you dont want any rowdy flying foxes spoiling that peaceful tranquil espei/gourami/oto party


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Love the oto mania shots! The rest of the tank seems to be doing well as well. Glad the pearls seem to be taking to their new home nicely.

True siamese algae eaters are great fish. Warning, they love java moss. They will prune it alot and neglect the algae. If this isn't a problem then they would make a great addition to the tank. Be sure that you don't get the flying foxes as they do get rowdy and aggressive and really don't eat a lot of algae when they become adult.
There is a way to tell them apart, the number of sets of barbels and also the long stripe is slightly different, or at least mine were. Foxes have flat bellies and SAE's tend to get rounder like the otos.

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Yeah, I realize that we are getting close to the 1000th entry
What does 1,000 poster get?

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Matty – Thanks for the comments on the Oto shots, this was really the first time ever that I had them all in one spot and was able to take a group picture. They also seem to get really fat, all this food (aka algae) is doing them good. I am using TMG now as my sole source of Iron. So far I have not seen a deficiency that I would think is based on a lack of Iron, my red Macandra is as red as ever, so are the leaves of the invisible (at least in photos) Red Rubin Sword.

NowherMan6 – Thanks for the info, I read up on SAEs already about 3 months ago as I always liked them. My LFS has then rarely (so far I have not come across them there) as they make sure they sell them as the real deal. The have false ones, and I made sure to study them as well.

luvmykrib – thanks for the comments on the Oto shots and the info regarding the SAE. I didn’t know the part with the rounder belly, that might come in handy. Although they are usually underfed in stores (if anything like Otos applies) and as such their bellies will be thin.

tetratech – A Hug

Ingo


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As always great photos of an awesome tank and wonderful fish. Just out of curiousity, how much time to you spend weekly on maintaint this tank at this point?

Jim



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OldTimer,

Thank you so much for the input and the compliments.

These days, as I am not doing any major changes anymore (like replanting the whole tank as I did a few times so far), I would say I spend during the course of a week:

- daily 0.5 hours observing and wondering what can be changed = 3.5 hours per week
- Water change 1 hour to drain 60G and 20 min to refill, plus 10 min addition of stuff for the water (baking soda, equilibrium, and ferts) = 1.5 hours
- Before water change, maybe 1 hour pruning, if required, and glass cleaning = 1 hour
- Cleaning up the mess I made before and during water change = 1 hour
- Daily fert addition (additional 5 times a week) of 5 to 10 min = lets say 0.5 hours

So, without feeding and just maintenance, that gets me to 7.5 hours per week. That is actually not all that much when considering that there were days when I messed for 12 hours straight with the tank.

Thanks again,

Ingo


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The Pearls won't bother the Espei at all. Mine doesn't even look crooked at the Hengali's. I doubt they'll even do much for the fry. They are not the fastest fish in the world. But they're always picking through plants looking for hydra etc so any eggs may not last long.

They'll settle in quickly enough. If they are stressed at all they immediately go to the darkest corner they can find. Once they settle in they are quite socialable.

I'd avoid SAE's unless you feel you have a "need" for them. They are ok when young but it doesn't take long for them to become more trouble then they're worth IMO. They will feast on your moss. When they figure out that some strange hand puts food in the tank, they get lazy and become fat, pooping, damaging nuisances.


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LITTLE_FISH
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Bensaf,

Thanks for the input

The entries here are the first time that I heard that the SAE are not all good. I guess I should think more about them. As you probably know they were my solution for the remaining Thread Algae. I don’t have a lot of it, but certainly too much to be controlled by hand. How about some shrimp then?

All,

The earlier mentioned driftwood auction ends in about 10 hours and the piece currently stands at $81, plus $16 for shipping. That is quite a hefty price for a piece where one is only able to judge its quality from a picture. Any suggestions within the next few hours would be appreciated.

Ingo


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Cup_of_Lifenoodles
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Most people don't associate SAEs as being preadatory, but they are, in fact, quite omnivorous, and feed on invertabrate life as well as decaying vegetation in the wild. Thus, the espei fry may not be safe from the SAE; just a speculation.
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I'd avoid SAE's unless you feel you have a "need" for them. They are ok when young but it doesn't take long for them to become more trouble then they're worth IMO. They will feast on your moss. When they figure out that some strange hand puts food in the tank, they get lazy and become fat, pooping, damaging nuisances.
I think what Bensaf is saying here is bascially is that an SAE is not an Oto that will compliment that plants both in look(size) and function. The SAEs don't balance that way and are less gentile with plants, etc they are also fairly large waste producers.

My Scapes
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NowherMan6
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Thats an awful lot for an unknown, LF, you're right. And if it's more than you're willing to deal with, your best bet is to let it go.

For what it's worth, at Absolutely Fish there's a big hunk of driftwood sitting in one of the big tanks in the back, takes up the entire length of a 55 gallon. Not as branchy as the one on ebay, but it is pretty nice.


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Thanks Cup_of_Lifenoodles and tetratech for the additional info and opinions on the SAE. I think I heard enough to hold off with any purchase on that fish until I really have no other options to control algae (and I think I have many before that happens ).

NowherMan6 – Thanks for the update on Ab. Fish. Are you sure you saw that this was one piece? I have been there last week and all I saw were a few rather chunky pieces. Sometimes they arrange them in a way that you either have to look really close or even have to pick up the piece to see that it is multiple. If it was one piece then I would be interested if you saw the price tag. Even smaller pieces in the show tanks go for $50 plus (up to $100 for a piece that was way too chunky and rather small).

The current price for the one on e-bay would be ok if one would know for sure that it is quality driftwood, but the seller doesn’t even list what type of wood it is. I guess I will make a last minute decision .

Thanks to all 3 of you again,

Ingo


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bensaf
 
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Well Ingo we were thinking of you at the weekend.

I met up with Paulus on Sat. We hit the market. We are both 6 ft tall, actually Paulus was taller then me which makes him a giant by Indonesian standards, neither of us could have reached the top of the driftwood pile if we tried.We mentioned you might be a bit green with envy if you could have seen it. Picked up a couple of nice pieces.


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LITTLE_FISH
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]:|]:|]:|

Yeah yeah, are you having fun over there ?

I hope you picked up a bunch of red ants as well .

Well, at least you were thinking of me

Ingo


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[font color="#C00000"]ONE THOUSAND[/font]



Thanks to all that have participated and helped me so far to get this tank as to where it is now.

I really appreciate all the input.

I hope you will do the same for the next 1000,

Ingo



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NowherMan6
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LF, you could always email the seller and ask him/ her, or ask him/ where the piece was found etc. if you have lingering doubts...



EDIT: Just saw the 1000th post... congrats LF! Though I can't imagine being able to go back through this log to bring up any old info, I'm glad it's all there. It's been great fun participating, even though i came in pretty late. Anyway, nice job in making sure YOURS was the 1000th post, and not some comment about ebay

Last edited by NowherMan6 at 09-Jan-2006 08:48


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LITTLE_FISH
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Man, I am sooo busy at work that I cannot even celebrate the 1000th post. Thanks NowherMan6, I am glad I had I hit the button for the 1000th before you did .

BTW, the price of the wood at 2.6 hours before closing is now $91, that’s a total of $107. I don’t know


Ingo


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LF,

No guts no glory!


Just messing around. I would way rather go pick a peice out in person than risk a cheap peice or not so cheap peice that all I saw was a picture. I am actually going to be on a DW hunt my self here when I get some cash.......some time soon I hope.......

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LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks Wingsdlc

I have to talk about the Pearls again and would like your input. They have been with me now I guess for over a month (at least). As of last night, so almost 2 days after adding them to this tank, the still react like they have never seen a human before when I approach the tank. They pretty much jump out of the water and then take a dive so fast that they hit the gravel and then they hide. They haven’t done that in the 20G. The female came out for feeding but the male stayed hidden (I saw him a while later, but he dive bombed again when I added the ferts).

Am I too worried? Could the transport from one tank in the room to the other have stressed them out more than the one from the LFS to my house?

Ingo


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NowherMan6
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Am I too worried



Um, yes.

You're such a good caretaker with these fish, I understand each and every one of them is like a little member of the LF clan, but give the pearls some time They've got a huge new environment to explore, in a week or so all will be well. Maybe moving them to them was like hitting their reset button. It'll all come down to when they recognize you as the bringer of food again


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LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks NowherMan6,

I like the notion of the LF Clan, although I certainly am not able anymore to identify each and every fish I have .

Yeah, for most of the time in the 20G feeding was all I did to the tank, except for the weekly water change. Here they are exposed to daily fert addition disturbances as well. Maybe the 20G Long also wasn’t high enough for their crash dives .

Ingo


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NowherMan6
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All things considered they don't seem like they're doing too bad. Certainly not the shyest fish I've ever owned - at least they let you take pictures of them, when I first got my brevis pair I couldnt get a clean pic for 2 weeks.

It's been a little while since we saw a full tank shot - any rescaping plans on the horizon?


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LITTLE_FISH
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The latest full tank shot is on page 39, you might have skipped that page because it was filled up too quickly

The pics there are from this weekend, so that is as new as it can be.

Any rescaping? - yes, I guess so

Ingo


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SheKoi
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this thread has moved on a bit, taken ages catch up with it, i've been away for 10 days, fun reading beats my revision which i should be doing

very nice tank photos, glad the gourami move went ok.

i've had to delay my setup for few weeks, we decided to decorate the living room before filling up the tank, easier then moving it all once setup.

really hope i can get mine to look half as good as yours.

shekoi

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shekoi,

Thanks for the comments

Yeah, I guess redoing the room is better done before a tank is set up, wise decision.

And don't worry, you tank will look better than "1/2 as good as mine" as I think mine isn't all that great.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder

Ingo


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Gang,

I just remembered some of the other fish I initially intended to add to the tank. Besides various groups of tetras there was a type of Rainbow that I would be interested in:

Melanotaenia praecox – Dwarf Neon Rainbow

I have seen them at the LFS and somehow can’t believe that the max length suggested in our profile of less than 2 inches is correct. The ones in the store already seemed bigger.

I like them because of the blue appearance and the red frame created by the fins.

Another one I like is Pseudomugil furcatus - Forktail Blue-Eye Rainbow.

Any input on these two, as well as any other suggestion for similar shaped and colored Rainbows is greatly appreciated. Size should not exceed 4 inches though (as I am LITTLE_FISH ).

Thanks in advance,

Ingo


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Wingsdlc
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The dwarf blue rainbows would probably get up to 3 inches or so. I really like them too. As soon as some nice ones come into work I plan on snaching a few up for my planted tank.

Some other rainbows....

Threadfin
Celebes

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mattyboombatty
 
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That picture really doesn't do the threadfins justice. They are a much prettier fish than that. I like all 4 of those rainbows. That would be a tough chooice to make. I personally like the furcatas myself they are pretty neat little buggers.



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Wingsdlc
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I know what you mean about the Threadfins. We had a couple of tanks of them at work in some crappy lighting. When I scooped them out for some people they looking really nice.

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bensaf
 
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I'd definately go for the Praecox. I've had a few for while. They are a nice fish. I'd say 2 inches is the max. They look bigger when they get older as they take on the typical rainbow compressed look.

They are a peaceful shoaling fish, tough and very very playful. Slow growing. They take a while to mature but are worth the wait. They color up well when older. As I say a big group is very playful always dancing and displaying to one another. They even organise race meets

I think these would be ideal for your tank. Nice color, the size means you can keep a biggish group. Most other likes Boesmanii get a fair bit bigger.

Threadfins would probably get lost in your tank. Furcatas are a bit fussy. These ones are not really my cup of tea, looks wise, too frilly all those fancy fins.

The Praecox have a simple subtle beauty and is like having a group of puppies in the tank without being hyper like Danios or nippy like Barbs.

Here's a pic of one of mine, about a year and a half old, the colors are quite striking.




bensaf attached this image:


Last edited by bensaf at 10-Jan-2006 22:47
[/font]


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Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
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SheKoi
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go with the dwarfs!! i've got four females at the moment. the picture above is of a male - red fins females have yellow.

mine shoal with the H.rasbora it makes a great looking shoal - i've had mine for over a year now and they are 2-2.5inches max.

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All,

Thanks so much for the input, and Bensaf – what a great picture!

My LFS had Threadfins and they are in good shape. I have considered them at some point but then decided against them as their fragile appearance somehow conflicts with the rest of my fish , the gentle fish role is already taken by the Pearls.

Celebes are similar to Threadfins (with regards to fragile appearance) and require in general a higher ph range than the other options.

If Bensaf is right about the Furcatas being fuzzy, then Dwarfs it is.

Now, how many though? I was thinking 6, 2 males and 4 females. I know about the fin color distinction, but I don’t know if this is visible in juveniles already.

Thanks again,

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 11-Jan-2006 04:10


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SheKoi
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i started with 2male and 4 females - my males didn't survive the move from my parents house earlier last year for unknown reason. when i brought mine they were less then 1in and the fins were the different colours so i was able to choose the ratio i wanted - they bred with in a couple of months but the eggs were eaten by the rasbora and angel and the rainbows themselfs had feast before i could do anything.

in a tank your size i would go for 3 males and 5/6 females that would make a lovely shoal.

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LITTLE_FISH
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shekoi,

Thanks for the info on the ability to sex juveniles.

When suggesting numbers though keep in mind that I have about 100 Espei . So just the rainbows would add another 9. When will I be overstocked (a few other pairing fish should still follow this round of stocking)?

Also, I will have to house them in the 20G QT first and I don't want to add too many there at once. Should I stack them in 2 stages, first 1m and 2f or something like that?

Ingo


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i've wanted the neon dwarf rainbows for ages never seem to fine them near me - i might look online to get some.

LF very nice tank well done
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LF

100 what a shoal that must be!

is the Q tank cycled or do you set it up each time you get new fish?

go with 4 females first then get others after week or so, this should also help females settle better as wont be stressed by males wanting to get busy!

i think in 125g you would be ok with 9 dwarfs, because of all the plants you have etc, but it's up to you if don't want to risk overstocking go with 2M and 4F - probably soon have fry anyway.

shekoi

Newfishboy - try TriMar they sometimes stock dwarfs and they have good rep for delivering heathly fish.

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LITTLE_FISH
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newfishboy – Thanks for the compliment on the tank

shekoi – If you ever get bored, and I mean really bored, then skim through the previous 40 pages of this log . Here you will find information on how this group of 100 Espei (by approximation) came to be, accompanied by various pictures of them as individuals and in groups.
The QT (that would be [link=This Tank]http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Aquascaping/63901_3.html" style="COLOR: #ff6633[/link] here) is permanently cycled and planted as well. It houses 5 Platies (actually 6 by now as one fry of the latest batch survived) as permanent residents. Your suggestion of getting the 4 females first sounds good. But, how will 2 males only behave in the QT, with no other fish of the same species to bother?

And more fry? – gee, what am I gonna do with them ?

Thanks,

Ingo


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SheKoi
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I dream of a shoal like yours - nice photos got them trained to hold still, i've never been able to get good photo of my rasbora.

the males should be ok on their own - they are young and if only for week or so then that should be fine.

now you've give me an idea - i need a Q tank setup full time, with plants and fish - really an excuse to have another tank she would kill me] i usually setup the Q tank week or so before fish i'm buying with water and filter from my 40g always worked for me - might setup 10g again and use it as Q tank - LF you got me thinking now i'll never get any work done.

shekoi.

ps i'm bored most days - hard life being student.

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ps i'm bored most days - hard life being student.


shekoi,

I used to understand what you are talking about but I really messed things up this semmester. 7 classes, 17 credit hours, 25-30 hours of work a week doesn't leave too much time for fish. Which I have to say bites!

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shekoi,

Glad I could help you getting that brain going

I have to say that I am not a fan of a 1 week QT treatment. If I use the QT then I want to do it right, at least 3 weeks, better even more (4+). While one week will most likely be enough to detect Ich and similar illnesses, slow moving parasitic invasions can take a bit longer (can be used as an excellent argument when explaining your significant other why you “need” another tank).

Yeah, I make about 50 shots to get one good one of the Espei, very elusive little critters that always tend to take a quick dart forward right when you push that button. The easiest way to capture them is during the water change, when only 50% of water is left and there is nowhere to go for them .

Thanks for the indirect compliments on the QT,

Ingo

Wings – hang in there


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LITTLE_FISH
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Not much to say these days as I am too busy at work.

Maybe this weekend I will get a chance to go to the LFS and look at some Rainbows, any last minute suggestion on particular illnesses (like the Pearl's potential for internal parasites) you would like to share?

Or how about any external signs of weakness that are specific to Rainbows?

Thanks in advance,

Ingo


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Bensaf this pic from ADG has nothing on yours. That is a dazzling pic of your rainbow.







tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes
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LITTLE_FISH
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wow tetratech,

That is a great shot, although Bensaf's is clearer. What a nice schooling formation. I am sold on them

Thanks for this last piece of evidence I needed to convince myself that this is the right fish

Except is someone tells me they are e to (insert any bad stuff here) .

Ingo

EDIT: Let me see if I get that right: They are all boys, right?

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 13-Jan-2006 07:13


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tetratech
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I fiqured you would like the pic since your considering the fish.

My Scapes
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LF,

Right on brother! All males!

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bensaf
 
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Never had problems with Rainbows. I've had mine almost from the get go, oldest fish I have. They are quite hardy and haven't been overbred like a lot of other tropicals.

If they have young uns in the store they'll be a lot more slender, they get the typical rainbow humps much later, and quite grey. Don't let this put you off they color up as they mature, especially the fins.


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Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
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foj1428
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Hi

I have been quietly following this tank log from the start and I just wanted to say, not only is your tank looking amazing, but you are clearly a gifted photographer! There are some spectacular shots in here, and I especially like the ones of the ottos on page 39!

Keep up the good work!
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Thanks all for the additional comments:

- Bensaf on the Rainbow status. Yes, I have seen them many times in the LFS and your description of them being gray and slender is what I observed as well. For some reason this never turned me off as I have seen pictures (albeit none as pretty as the 2 presented in this log) showing them in “better light”.

- Wings for letting me know that I can sex them, although it would be nice to see how a female looks in comparison.

- foj1428 for the compliments on the tank and my pictures. The tank, well I have to give some credit to all the people here that helped to get it there. The pictures, the credit here goes more then partially to the camera itself and for the close-ups to NowherMan6 who suggested just the right lens for that purpose. I appreciate that you read through this sometimes messy (as in funny, at least for some of us) thread, thanks.

Thanks again,

Ingo


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LF,
Please don't let the photo compliments change you. I still consider you an aquarist first and a photo buff second. Pictures and planted tanks what a perfect combination.

My Scapes
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Please don't let the photo compliments change you


Don’t worry about that, I am too old to change

I always like to take nice pictures and a nice looking plant/fish in the tank is just the right object for it . So logically, no nice tank and no nice fish = no nice picture. Ergo, I have to be a scaper / fish keeper foremost.

Ingo


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I always like to take nice pictures and a nice looking plant/fish in the tank is just the right object for it .


A blonde supermodel draped across the hood in a bikini wouldn't hurt either


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
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Whenever I try to convince a super model to pose for me they run away screaming for help. They just don’t want to dive in my tank, I don’t know why.

Ingo


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Back on topic here.........

The female dwarf blue rainbow look very much like the male except their fins are more of a light orange where the males are red.

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Thanks Wingsdlc,

Basically I knew that, but the probably best [link=Rainbow Fish Website]http://members.optushome.com.au/chelmon/Praecox.htm" style="COLOR: #ff6633[/link] lists the following:

“Heiko Bleher reported in Aqua Geõgraphia that "... males have red-edged fins while the fins of females are pure yellow". However, my original females had red fins and succeeding generations are still producing red-finned females, although at times they can appear faintly orange coloured. There are however, aquarium stocks that have yellow-finned females.”

That should make the sexing a little harder.

Ingo

PS: The link above is directly to the Dwarf Rainbow Page, [link=Here]http://members.optushome.com.au/chelmon/index.htm" style="COLOR: #ff6633[/link] is the site itself.


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Before you jump to the pictures,

[font color="#C00000"]I need your advice[/font]

I had a busy day, but not tank related. I managed to steal myself away for an hour and went to the LFS to look for Melanotaenia praecox, the Dwarf Neon Rainbow.

Once there I perused the isles and found them. All adults (12), all male, about half showing signs of finrot on their tailfins, and $20 a piece. Wow, I checked them out for a while and decided I will have to try my luck somewhere else some other time (at least 2 weeks from now).

Well, on my way out I perused the tanks some more, and what do I find, juveniles. In all there were 6 in the tank, $12 a piece. I like juveniles better as I love to see my fish grow up. Here is where your advice would be appreciated: They had 3 females and 3 males (in a tank with emperor tetras and mollies), I decided to buy all the girls and one boy, so 4 in total. One of the males, although the same length than the others (maybe 1.3 inches) already started to show the trades of the adult, beginning to have a raised back (figured he must be older and neglected him). Another male was rather bossy so I turned him down as well. Should I go back tomorrow and add one of them? Or will my group of 3f and 1m be ok? What is I add juveniles once these are a little older, am I asking for trouble?

Anyway, shortly after adding them to the 20G QT they are doing great, the males is already after the females and one of them seems to currently hold the boss position (she is a little larger), even towards the boy. And call me crazy, but I seem to observe that they are interacting with the adult platies, there is clearly the head to tail fin spreading thing going on, but more in a mating way than in a threatening way. And they hang together as well (not all the time though.

So, here they are in the bag:

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One of the females in the tank:

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The male :

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And lastly a male and female, a little out of focus:

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Pretty nice looking fish. I must be in a good area for Dwarf rainbows because my store sells them for far less than that or your store has wild or F1 fish. As for your numbers.... I think you will be just fine. As far as I know I don't think rainbows are as bad as Livebeerer with the M/F ratio so it might not hurt to add another male.

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Wingsdlc,

Thanks for the input. Help me out, what is F1? First generation bred in captivity?

My concern with the numbers is less the issue that exists with livebearers (meaning one male to few females to divert the chasing of a single female for breeding purposes) than the aggression with males fighting for dominance in a 20G tank.

Ingo


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In my 55G I have two male Boesemani Rainbows with 3 Giant Danios. I have never seen any thing at all of a problem with them beating on each other. If any thing they flare their fins and throw their breeding colors. They also swim with the danios and flare their fins with them too just to show how pretty they are. Silly Rainbows..... I wouldn't worry about agression issues between the males and when you get them in the big tank there are tons of hiding spots if anything does come up.

F1 is first generation breed in captivity

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LF,
Very nice. Are those the same species as the one in the pick I sent you? Good luck with them.

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Thanks Wingsdlc,

I will think about it during the morning, then maybe I go to the LFS and get them.

Yes tetratech, that’s them . They look different a) because they are juveniles and b) the picture you posted are all males.
Thanks for the good luck wishes.

Ingo


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bensaf
 
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Get more. There's no aggression between the males. A lot of displaying and racing, they do this pretty much side by side so it's not one fish chasing another. There's a lot of dancing and playfulness between the males but never any damage seems to be quite a social activity. They'll figure out an alpha male soon enough and he'll develop bigger humps sooner.

It's not something to worry about rather it's a sign of healthy happy fish, they seem to enjoy each others company , both male and female.


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Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
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Bensaf,

Thanks, as usual

What you say makes perfect sense, as I wrote before - one of the males, although the same size, has the hump already. He must have been the alpha. I hope they are still there then (last 2, but lots of shoppers in the store buying one or two fish of tetras, cories, etc).

Ingo


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bensaf,

Well said! That was the point I was trying to get at but probably was a little far off.

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[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
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congrats on the rainbows - they look very nice, making me want to go out and add to my shoal - haven't even started tank up yet.

decorating will be done by next weekend so will begin my setup and continue my log a week today.

are you adding anymore to your rainbow collection, i'd suggest 2 more females and 1 male.

good luck with them
shekoi.

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Fish look pretty good, all considered! With some time and a good diet, they'll color up in no time.

BTW, I've got a friend that builds custom tanks and deals in driftwood looking for appropriate size and shape pieces for you! He's supposed to get me pics of each individual piece in the next few days. I'll keep you updated.
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Mike and shekoi, thanks for the input . More info will follow below:


Weekly Tank Update – Week 16

I had very little time this week to care for my tank, I did nothing but feeding the fish and the daily fertilizer routine.

The pearls are doing better now, not that they did badly before, but finally they show themselves more often in the open. That started to happen about two days ago.

A thing that begins to seriously worry is the Glosso. When looked at closely it is pretty bad. The low level seems to have died off and I don’t know how much longer I can maintain this plant. Maybe it is time to think about another ground covering plant for the front of the tank. All other plants seem to do ok, except for the Apons that turn a little yellowish now and the Dwarf Sags / Chain Swords that still show signs of melting. Oh, and so does the Uruguaensis Sword that might not get enough light in the back there (but I don’t have a better spot for it).

Otherwise, 4 Rainbows have been purchased yesterday and 2 more today , but more to this after the tank pictures. I will keep it short and only show last week and this week in comparison, plus a few detail shots.

Here is the tank last weekend:

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And here it is today. Not many changes, just some additional growth:

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A close-up of the Glosso in front of Rock Valley to illustrate my troubles with it:

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The male Pearl saying Hi to the Oto:

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And here is the Pearl couple together; it seems the male starts to develop the orange throat:

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Three shots of the Espei at low tide :

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Shot 2:

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And the last one, is it getting crowded yet?

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Now on to the Rainbows. I went to the store today and both males were still available. Well, now they are in the QT. Here is a picture of them still bagged:

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About 2 minutes after adding the bag the male that is already in the tank came to show off:

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He didn’t leave the side of the bag during the whole acclimatization process:

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Here is a close-up of a male after the release:

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All three males together, showing off and trying to figure out who will run the show. All the while the Platy is looking on and wonders if he has a chance to become the boss. BTW, I swear I see one almost adult male platy trying to mate with the Rainbows, and that with both genders.

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Here are 2 males and 2 females discussing what to do next:

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More male show of pride . The one in the foreground is actually the one with the biggest hump, but the new slender one is by far the most aggressive. I bet he will have a hump in no time (or kill all others):

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And again all 3 males in deep discussion:

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Last but not least, a female following a male. I guess she likes him :

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On the glosso,
It looks like you just waited to long to thin it out.

Espei,
Looks like they're deciding what to do about their new tankmates.

Rainbows,
Espei population control.




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Awesome pics LF..I really like those red plants in your forest green tank and I can tell from the last week pics that they have grown..Really nice pics
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Well, if you look through my log you will find out about how I always thin out my foreground every couple months. I take out the biggest chain swords, replant the small ones, then take the large ones to the lfs for $$. You could probably thin out the glosso, and take quite a bit back for 20 bucks, maybe more(well at my store you would end up getting about that much). You will probably see better, faster growth after you thin out the group. I noticed some of the leaves on the bottom had maybe a little algae on them? That's what tends to happen to my chain swords if I let them bunch up too much.


Waaaaaaaaaaaaay back on page 30. No one ever wants to listen to me. Now it's too late to take a bunch of it back to your lfs. Time to throw it out(at least most of it).

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Once it reaches critical mass, the Glosso really needs to be pulled up and replanted. There's really no other way to trim it. The plants at the bottom of the pile will begin to die off due to a lack of light.

This may not be too bad in a 30 gal, but in a 125 it's alot of work. It'll take a few hours with a scissors and tweezers. This will have to be done every couple of months.

The problems will be the same with any foreground plant. HC will require the same but because it's slower growing it will be much less frequent, makes it a better option for a big tank.

Maybe it's time to consider a clear sand foreground
The open sand foregrounds look nice IMO , But you do need a border of wood and rock to really make it look good and stop the sand from mixing in to your plant substrate.



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Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
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and maybe I don't want the stuff any more......and I will have to go looking for a new plant.....

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[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
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Well,

Thanks everybody for the input.

The fact that my Glosso is messed up and the options to correct it comes at a bad time as I have another really busy work week ahead (might even include the whole weekend).

Matty – the grand master of predictions - I guess I should have tried to interpret your statement waaaaaaay back a little more to the situation I have at my hand now. Then I applied it mostly to the Chain Swords (and mine do not need thinning and don’t have algae in them) and the algae you saw was only in areas that have just been reached by the Glosso. Next time I will be more careful when reading your entries, I promise .

I remember that I frequently threw the question in the mix on how to trim the Glosso in the first place (although my memory is not so sharp that I would remember page numbers like Matty does ) and I somehow either neglected all warning messages or there were none. Or maybe I was just too lazy .

Wingsdlc – That’s the reason I didn’t contact you about the Glosso anymore as I would like to find out what to do with it before getting you in the same situation.

I guess I will have to try to find the time to remove little pieces at a time .

Bensaf – how would you go about retrofitting a tank with a sand foreground?


On the Rainbow frontier: I did notice that one of the males (with the hump) has some of his dorsal fin missing. I blamed the new boss – and man, he is bossy and chases all others (males and females) around like mad until they all huddle in one corner – for it, but then I looked back at the pictures of the fish in the bag and the problem already existed there.

Bitten off by other fish in the LFS or ill, that is the question? I see no sign of infection or such and it seems to be gone all the way down to the back of the fish.

Ingo

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What about something like this moss?

Monosolenium tenerum (“Pellia&#8221

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From the Tropica website:

"Monosolenium tenerum is an attractive liverwort, which looks most like a giant Riccia that simply stays at the bottom, where it forms cushions. It is a brittle plant, and pieces break off easily, so it is best to place it in the aquarium attached to stones with fishing line or in small clumps among other plants such as Eleocharis. Once M. tenerum has established itself, it is very undemanding. This plant is mistakenly known as Pellia."

In my experience it differes from Riccia in that it is a sinker (and will not float to the top once detached or trimmed) and larger, and much darker green. It can be very nice but is the same pain in the neck when it comes to overgrowing and pruning.

Ingo


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Is there an easy forground plant??

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Bensaf – how would you go about retrofitting a tank with a sand foreground?


You'd need to push back or remove the substrate at the front. This would be the easy bit. The tricky bit is having something to keep the 2 substrates seperated. Some use thick strips of plastic or wood/rocks.

Unfortunately just putting sand on top of the existing gravel won't work as the sand will sink into the gravel over a short period of time.

To make the look work though I feel you need a clear line of wood and rock where the sand starts. A river bank appearance. The trick is to make it look like the entire tank is sand not just the foreground. Just looks silly and gimmicky otherwise IMO. This is the real tricky part and it's not easy to pull off, requires a lot of planning at the set up stage. You don't have the hardscape for this at the moment.

Wings,
All ground cover plants require some work. You need to be prepared and ready for this. It's the price we pay. Some are more work then others, but the work is always there.

Pellia is a nice plant but it's not really good for ground cover. I think it works best on wood at various heights and for creating strong diagonal lines.

Riccia is not too bad if handled right. If well secured on rocks maintenance is not too bad - lift the rocks out and give them a haircut once in a while then put them back.
It can be mixed in with moss. It doesn't need to be trimmed as it grows bits will float away but enough will always remain tangled up in the moss to keep going.
Amano used to mix Riccia with Glosso. It gets caught up in the Glosso runners, like with the Moss method when it gets to big it'll float away but enough will remain tangled to keep going. A 1 inch piece of Riccia will turn into a big think ball in a few weeks, it's a very fast easy grower.
Some I thought I got rid of grew back from God knows what. I just shoved pieces in with the moss and let it do it's thing. I may try mixing some in with the glosso for fun.

Open forgrounds are nice, especially if you have fish like Cories. It can look just as good too if done properly. The trick is use wood rocks and stones to create borders from the plants to the foreground. This hides the plant bottoms which nobody really wants to see. Otherwise it's just plants stop and substrate begins, it's not a foreground , just an empty space



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Hi Ingo & the planted gang,

Just wanted to quickly drop by and say "Happy New Year" to all. I just got back from vacation late last week and still recovering from it. Went to visit fish markets in 4 countries (including a nice meetup with good ol' Bensaf ) and acquired one suitcase full of aquarium stuff in the process. Will post some pics when I get around to it.

BTW, your tank is looking nice and "jungly". Congrats on the praecox rainbowfishes. I've been keeping them for 4 years now and have a soft spot for them. If you ever want to speed up their growth, feed them live worms over a few days. They will practically grow in front of your eyes. Also, watch for signs of dropsy on the females. I lost 2 females from it a few months apart (after having them for a year). Fortunately it doesn't seem to affect the males or other fishes.

Cheers!

-P
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Paulus,

Glad you got back safely.

How did your tanks look on return ?!




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Hi Bernard,

Surprisingly well on the whole.
Didn't lose any fish in the 42g and 23g tanks, but missing 4 cory hastatus, 2 Endlers & a dwarf pencilfish in the 15g (probably from the heat - tank temp was up to 32C when I got back). Got quite a nice plant growth and no algae in the 15g & 42g, and a nice coating of green spot and brown algae (and extra fat otos) on the glass of the 23g. Also the SAE in the 23g has turned into a big, fat, ugly monster. ]:|

Took me a while to clean and rearrange the two smaller tanks (including upgrading the lights) last weekend, but didn't have time to install the CO2 yet.

BTW, did you tell Ingo about the driftwood pile we saw in Sumenep?

Cheers!

-P
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Thanks all,

Bensaf – yeah, I guess doing a sand foreground, which actually was something I considered in the beginning, seems to be a lot of work and an even bigger mess when performed in a tank that is already set up. On the other hand, it seems that you are not too wild about an open gravel front and I share that opinion, at least for a tank that has my type of setup (and gravel style).

I guess for the time being I will start to thin out the Glosso and maybe save some pieces (the new growth on left and right) and let them grow in again.

Paulus – can’t wait to see all the goodies that you bought in action . And I am glad to hear that your tanks survived with only minor issues. Thanks also for the warning on the female rainbows, I wonder why they would get dropsy. Could it be that they don’t take live worms too well? And yes, Bensaf told me about the 200 meter high driftwood pile ]:|



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upikabu
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Hi Ingo,

In my case the dropsy had nothing to do with the live worm feeding as the symptoms only occurred 6 months afterwards. It just came suddenly and without warning. I had to resort to euthanasia both times. Here's hoping your fish will never have it!

Cheers,
-Paulus

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i once had tank with sand at the front and gravel with plants at the rear it did look really good - when i moved house i set the tank up to be fully planted and i do perfer it. have to make sure gravel is well held back in mine the sand and gravel started mixing covering up the sand.

how are the rainbows doing? i never had dropsey with mine but one of my males became very thin was still eating just wasting away, before dying about 4 months ago:#(

LF - what do you dose your tank with and how often?
is there anything i can add to my tank for co2 instead of an expendsive co2 machine? thinking about trying diy just wondering if there are any tablets, chemicals etc.

cheers shekoi

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upikabu and shekoi,

let’s keep our fingers crossed that the Rainbows will have a long and happy life, with all the Espei fry that they can eat in the near future .

So far, and that is news from last night, all 6 are still alive and kicking. I guess it is too early to be sure of anything.

shekoi – thanks on the sand update .

There is a liquid CO2 provider that we use for some of our tanks, it is called Flourish Excel. It basically is liquid carbonates that you add to the tank. Supposedly they last for only a day or two before becoming useless to the plants though, so frequent usage is recommended. The problem with it is that:

a) some plants don’t like it, like Egeria Densa and Najas melt away.
b) high light and plant rich tanks need quite a large dosage and in the long run this product will cost you more than a CO2 injection system.

The other option is to build a DIY CO2 system that basically consists of a soda bottle, water, yeast, and sugar. I am no expert in this, but from what I have heard:

a) it is not very consistent in its CO2 output over time
b) it is not suitable for tanks over (I guess here) 50G
c) it can malfunction, as it did in NowherMan6’s case (if I remember that right)

Hope this helps,

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 17-Jan-2006 11:34


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it can malfunction, as it did in NowherMan6’s case (if I remember that right)
I don't know about nowher, but remember my atomic bomb in my 46?

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SheKoi
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thanks alot - i'll have to look around best store brought option then.

i'll first see how plants do without - any suggestions of how to help plants in tank with no co2 - i mean like surface movement or not? less / more water changes etc.

shekoi

Last edited by shekoi at 17-Jan-2006 12:16

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On the other hand, it seems that you are not too wild about an open gravel front and I share that opinion
Well excusssssssssssssse me!

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tetratech

you forgot to quote the second part of it:

at least for a tank that has my type of setup (and gravel style)

Here you have it, that was targeted specifically to you

Ingo


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LF,
Just having alittle fun. I think it's all good!!!

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tetratech,

That is what I am trying to have as well , fun.

But for the third week in a row I am sitting here at work for 11 hours each day, fun is sparse to come by

Glad I have you guys to keep me entertained, thanks for that.

Ingo


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tetratech
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Sounds like the busy season for you. Well at least you know your needed.

I do alot of work from home with the wife giving me dirty looks when I'm on FP. At least if your at work the wife can't do that.

Tonites fun activity: Riccia and hairnets. (I hope my fish don't get caught in this stuff.)

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Cool,

And maybe you can post some piccies of it in your thread

I don't need a hairnet though

Ingo


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On the other hand, it seems that you are not too wild about an open gravel front and I share that opinion, at least for a tank that has my type of setup (and gravel style).


I like open foregrounds a lot ....as long as they're done right.

But, yeah without any wood it will be difficult to pull off in your tank . It'll just like like places you forgot to plant rather then part of the 'scape.

tetra,
Good luck with the hairnets look forward to seeing how you use them. Make sure the wife's not around, they look at you funny when they see you play with these things. A kind of " imagine, I used to think he was , now look at him !" look.




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mercy, a guy goes away for 4 days and two whole pages get filled up here


it can malfunction, as it did in NowherMan6’s case


as tetra pointed out, that as his tank that basically turned into the budweiser brewery. i'm sure it smelled pretty nice though


anyway, good luck with the hairnets tetra, I'll soon be doing the same with a bird net and moss


Back in the saddle!
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Well,

You have to forgive an old man for not remembering who had the explosion in his tank, at least I remembered that it happened

Yeah, we will see how the scape will turn out when I remove / reduce the Glosso (I have so little time these days).

Now on to something completely different:

I added my ferts last night and was about to leave the tank for the night when I took a last good look at my tank. And what did I see – a new baby

Well, it is not a fish, it is a new blossom (btw, the apons have also 2 more flowers). This time my Narrow Leaf Ludwigia developed on one stem 2 flower stems, one still being a tiny bud the other already open. I took a picture of it as I don’t know if it will still be there when I get home tonight.

Here it is:

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:



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Beautiful flower LF, you're water must really be nice for so many plants to blossom like that.


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LF,

Very cool. At work we had a crypt flower. I was gone for a few days and the light died on the tank and the thing flowered. It was kind of crazy but really neat. It also seems that I am the only guy in the store that will take care of the plants. Oh well.... its my cup of tea.

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Thanks guys for the comments on the flower, I am already wondering how it will look tonight. Maybe it is all done by then or maybe it isn’t, I will keep you posted.

Wings – If you are the guy that takes care of the plants then you found a niche for yourself in that store. The guy I respect most in my LFS is the plant guy, he is pretty good, not arrogant about it, and always willing to learn more (and so am I).

Ingo


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I would be the plant guy for sure. Something I am trying to get going is our plants because they really aren't much right now. The boss has given me some free range to do what I want so it is kind of fun. Although on a down note about this. I killed off all the Val in our Discus tank. It was either (1) they didn't like the Excel or (2) they didn't like me moving the better light away from them to get to get the swords regrowing. Anyways they really didn't look go today.

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Wingsdlc,

You live and you learn

That's what I do every day with this tank, although sometimes it seem I resist the lerning

Ingo


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Ingo,

Are you sure that flower belongs to the Ludwigia ?

The reason I ask is it's almost unheard of for stem plants to flower submersed. They, typically, will only flower if they break the surface. Also they usually have flowers at the internodes very close to the leaf. I see some sag leaves poking out there. Now a plant like Sag would be much more likely to flower underwater and will produce a flower at the end of a long stalk.


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Next time I will be more careful when reading your entries, I promise


I'm just messin' with ya. Really I hear you on the lack of time thing...I think that's the major algae problem in my tank. No time for me to help the situation out. Your tank looks algae free btw. very nice. Mine is still a small problem, one that could probably be fixed easily if I took time to monitor my dosing and do water changes on schedule. At least my foreground plants are still algae free.

I agree with Bensaf on the flower. Very cool lookin' flower though.



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Ingo you have all the luck, I wouldn't care about which plant produced a flower, I'd just be so excited I got a flower! Although it seems so much more likely that your tanks get flowers than mine. Are you a terrestrial gardener as well? If not maybe you should give it a try! You are so good at making things grow, the plants, the espeis!

Keep it up! They really seem to love it, the plants and the fish.

Did you dose the pearl at all after you noticed it was wounded? I had a danio lose most of it's tail fin once and it eventually grew back, I did use melafix in the tank but man is it messy for awhile! But no infection or fungus got it while it was regrowing the fin.

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Bensaf – No doubt it is the Ludwigia. And your description of where the flower stem evolves is absolutely correct. Right above a leaf node I have 2 flower stems coming out. They are maybe 4 inches long. Unfortunately, the one I pictured must have opened yesterday and by the time I came home it was beyond prime. The pedals were opened in a90 degree angle but they were melting. In the middle of the flower is a yellowish / greenish half ball shaped structure. I am a little in a rush and I deleted all the additional pictures of the flower from my laptop (as the quality was not that great), but I will try tonight to download them from the camera again and see if there is one that shows the whole stem part as well (I think there is). The second bud (in the earlier picture on the right hand side) hasn’t opened yet, maybe I will get a chance for a picture on this one.

Matty – keep on messing with me, that is ok .

luvmykrib – Thanks for the compliments, I guess I can be lucky sometimes as well . I have nothing to do with regular gardening, my wife actually banned me from doing so as I have a tendency to organize my yard plantings so they look more like a military formation . And I am not kidding.
The pearls are fine, the missing fin part is a rainbow. And I didn't treat as I see no wound.

Thanks,

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 19-Jan-2006 04:24


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LF,

You live and you learn


Oh yeah thats what I was doing when I spent all that time on my homework and not my fish tanks right??

Neather of the bosses have said anthing to me yet about it but I am sure when I start ripping out all the vals they might ask some questions being they tank is right next to their office. I really don't like vals any ways I its good that I know a couple of diffferent possibilities to kill them.



Killing a few vals at a time,
Wingsdlc

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LF,
Congrats on the flowering Ludwiga.

Bensaf,
The reason I ask is it's almost unheard of for stem plants to flower submersed.
You don't understand Jersey water. It causes all kinds of mutations

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Thanks tetratech

Yeah, our water, a reason for people from other areas of the tri-state part of the US to have fun at our expense .

I guess it must contain some stimulative ingridient for the reproduction system of any living organizm. Maybe that is why I have twins .

Ingo



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I guess it must contain some stimulative ingridient for the reproduction system of any living organizm.
So that explains why the espei are breeding like guppies.

BTW - That's wonderful about your twins. Your blessed!

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talking about water how much do you change in your tank and how often?

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NowherMan6
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I guess it must contain some stimulative ingridient for the reproduction system of any living organizm.


And how do you explain my harlies' refusal to breed, hmm? Bunk, I say! ]:|




But seriously, Jersey City water is the best water I've ever tasted. At least to me it is... a German exchange student that came to stay with me for a few weeks a few years ago wouldnt drink it because it tasted like chlorine...


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tetratech
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talking about water how much do you change in your tank and how often?
I could only speak for myself, but most of us here in planted aquaria change 50% of the water once a week. It helps reset the tank in terms of ferts and other essentials it's also a good amount if you are dosing with the EI method. You could change less or more depending upon your fert dosage and plant mass.

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shekoi,

tetratech is right on, I change at least 50% (I tend to go maybe to 55 to 60%) every week.

NowherMan6,

Yeah, I know how that German guy felt, as I had to accustom myself to water here as well (and here is not only New Jersey ).

Ingo


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LF,
In the current issue of Aquarium Fish Magazine there is a six page article on rainbow fish. It talks about 7 new species of rainbows as well. Thought you might be interested.



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Thanks tetratech,

I am a subscriber to Aquarium Fish Magazine and TFH


So I have seen the article a few weeks ago.

Thanks for thinking about me when you saw it,

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Well,

Couldn’t it be at least once that the all-mighty Bensaf is wrong? ]:|

I did a really close observation of the Lugwigia flower stem, and what can I say – behind the Ludwigia stem is a small stem coming up carrying the 3 (now it’s 3) flower stems. And where does that stem start – at the Narrow Leaf Sagittaria.

So, have you seen my beautiful Sagittaria flower on the previous page?

Bensaf – you are the man!

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All hail Bensaf and his educated guesses!... I mean, mighty Plant Prowess!









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tetratech
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I still think the Jersey water has something to do with it.
:%)

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bensaf
 
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Bow down before my might you lesser mortals.

It was just an educated guess. Stems rarely if ever flower submersed and the flowers are always close to node, not on stalks. Sags and rossette plants on the other hand...... combined with the pic it was well, elementary my dear Ingo !

Sometimes having an I.Q. of 142 comes in handy

Yep I really am that smart, but you'd never know it from the way I behave and some of the dumb crap I've done in my life.:%)


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bensaf,

Yeah that's most of us.

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Ah,

An IQ of 142 – I have a similar one, it’s the same numbers but written like 14.2

Anyway, let’s forget this embarrassing episode of me being able to flower stem plants in the tank .

Here are some new pictures:

First – tetratech, my Star Grass has reached the surface as well, even in the darkened corner of my tank. Please trim yours now so I can see what I should do .

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Here are two of my pond snails making out on the rock. See the thread algae as well!

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Last, a shot of the Rotala Macandra closing up for the night. The bubbles are not from a water change (which was last Sunday) but from respiration. And the plant is on the opposite side of the tank than the Reactor.

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Nice pictures once again. Do you have quite a few pond snail in your tank? I had a good handful until I brought home the Skunk Loaches. Now I have only seen a couple of babys at nigth time. I was just wondering how bad they could get.

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tetratech, my Star Grass has reached the surface as well, even in the darkened corner of my tank
As I said, you Jersey people are so competitive. It's not enough that you took our Giants and Jets, now this. Well since your brought it up Stargrass Wars II
On the left is Jersey stargrass on the right is New York's variety. Maybe it's me, but I see more stars twinkling on the right.



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I have to side with tetratech on this one and his photo skills.

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Star Grass Wars 2 ???? The Algae Strikes Back?

Am I getting fuzzy are or did we do this already. About 567 posts back ?


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Yeah Yeah Yeah



Just make yourself happy

This photo was taken under half light and on top of it the plant is in the corner where only limited light is available. Just watch out if I ever should decide (a lot will depend on tetratech’s success after pruning) to give it a more appropriate spot in the jungle .

And tetratech, if my Star Grass should never be as pretty as yours is (and yes Man, yours is prettier) then I will put all my effort into getting the Yankees and the Mets to come to NJ as well .

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Star Grass Wars 2
Uh, that's what the "2" is for.

Next up Star Grass Wars 3 - Revenge of Littlefish

This photo was taken under half light and on top of it the plant is in the corner where only limited light is available
As I take out my violin.

Last edited by tetratech at 20-Jan-2006 08:38

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As I take out my violin.



That sounds like a challange. LF, you must move your stargrass to a more fitting location in your tank so it gets better light.

Remember, use the Forceps LF...


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You just wait and see





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Sounds like we got a Mexican standoff.

Neither will pull out the trimming scissors 'til the other makes the first move

Gunfight at the F.P. Coral. I can just see the two facing off in the middle of a dusty street, hands poised over their holsters containing their pruning scissors.A smoking Marlboro hanging from Ingo's lips, with that black hat you'd never know he was bald

Want to watch that tetra guy though, I hear he keeps a hidden forceps strapped to his ankle

By the time this is finished their Stargrass will have grown out of the tank and taken up residence on the couch

Now who's gonna blink first............?????????


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Bensaf,
I'm glad you putting your 142 IQ to good use

I ain't cutting mine until it flowers like Ingo's Ludwigia Maybe if I raise mine out of the water with the BBQ stick for support it will.

It's truly amazing how perceptive you are through this medium. Your midi-chlorians must be off the scale

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Are you using treated tap water or RO/DI water?
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I'm glad you putting your 142 IQ to good use

Just reducing myself to level of those around, when in Rome ......

It's truly amazing how perceptive you are through this medium.

Maybe.It doesn't make much to figure you for a bit of a movie buff. Quotes from Jurassic Park, midi-chlorians which I assume to be a reference to Star Wars. Only the folks that have a real love of movies remember this stuff.
I studied psychology for a while. The human mind and it's workings fascinates me. And I'm assuming your not being sarcastic. Hard to tell, you hold your cards closer to your chest then most.

Your midi-chlorians must be off the scale

Darn right And I've got a cute butt too !


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"Darn right And I've got a cute butt too !"

Now he's George Michaels. It's gettin' gay now.
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Well, although tetratech might have a hidden forceps at his ankle, what he does know is that I am wearing a pinch-safe vest made out of small TMG bottles.

Man, I leave you guys alone for one evening and you turned this into a duel.

Tainted Glory – I am using tab water, treated with Prime, why?

DragonFish – I don’t get it.

Ingo


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And I'm assuming your not being sarcastic
Well for the midi-chlorians statement, maybe

Darn right And I've got a cute butt too
I must admit, I'm trying to get a visual, but my IQ isn't as high as yours.

Tainted Glory,
Are you referring to Stargrass Wars and the water we use.

Dragonfish,
Your scaring me!




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Tainted Glory
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I was referring to water. The reason is, I'm new to planted tanks and am going to go full blown in the next few days and want to iron out the details before that happens.
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Mike,

If the tab water is not poisenous, and matches the general requirements of the tank as well, then I personally don't see a reason why I would want to use RO water. Imagine all the goodies you get in the water for free that you would have to add to RO water.

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THanks Ingo. I'm definetly going to be asking you a lot of redundant questions, so bare with me! I hate to clutter your thread-this is the last silly post-promise. What substrate do you recommend? I was thinking of using flourite or the like and creating a gravel area front and center. I'm going for something along the lines of an Amano tank in TFH a while back. Maybe you recall? It was the article about driftwood in the nature aquarium I believe?
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Mike,

You know, I am actually not qualified to recommend any substrate as I have only used one kind in my 3 tanks, Laterite in the bottom layer of gravel. It for sure would be worthwhile if you create a new thread and ask a broader audience about their expertise.

This question is actually pretty applicable to this tank though. I am occasionally wondering if I should have used another substrate or if I should try to change mine bit by bit. The one thing I don’t like is that is it is too light, but at the same time not bright enough to make an impression. The gravel was initially (in the bag and when placed in the tank) a deep river stone color, but now it is mostly just a drab brown. But will all my plants my gravel only plays a minor role, most of it is not visible anyway. The other thing that I don’t like too much about it is that it is not fine enough. It is just pea size gravel, but I think I would like it better if it would be smaller.

The one thing that doesn’t make a difference for me is the substrate’s ability to serve as a fertilizer. I am pretty happy with my plant growth and don’t see an advantage that I would gain by switching to Flourite or Eco-Complete.

Hope this helps,

Ingo


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The one thing that doesn’t make a difference for me is the substrate’s ability to serve as a fertilizer
I would tend to agree with that. Carib-Sea the provider of Eco Complete has this statement on their website.

"Eco contains all the mineral nutrients needed for luxuriant aquatic plant growth without nuisance algae! Iron rich Eco-Complete™ eliminates the need for laterite.
Natural black substrate encourages the most vibrant coloration in fishes and reduces fish stress."


I find that statement to be quite a stretch.

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Weekly Update – Week 17

Well, very little time has been spent with the tank during the last week, given that I worked 11 hours each day and 13 on Saturday. This also means that the water change, which usually is on a Saturday, was today (Sunday).

Besides replacing water, this weekend’s maintenance stood under the motto “Remove the Glosso”. Because I intend to do this in weekly steps, to avoid too much dirt in the water column at once, I started with the area in front of, and in between, Rock Valley.

It sure was a mess and loads of gunk needed to be vacuumed out from the cleared section. This was the first time I used my regular vacuum without a filter (pantyhose) over it as it would have clogged up in no time. I didn’t use the python though, instead I vacuumed the gunk into a bucked (2 x 5G), just in case I suck out one of my fish .

Next week an additional section will be cleared of the Glosso. I actually leave very small plants in there, in case I decide that growing a new carpet is worth the effort. Let me know if you think the tank looks better with or without the Glosso.

Here are some weekly shots to show you recent changes. Also, look at the Rotala Macandra on the left and right, and the Star Grass at the right, to see some nice progress.

The Tank 2 weeks ago:

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Last Weekend:

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Today, after the water change:

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Here is a close-up of Rock Valley with the clean area in front and in-between. You may notice the Uruguaensis Sword in front of the valley. I had to save it from the back of the tank where it didn’t get any light and didn’t show any growth in about 6 weeks (at least). Behind it one can see some green just at the valley entrance. This is some Hair Grass that managed to survive the Glosso onslaught; I guess this plant is tougher than I thought.

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Once again the Sword Uruguaensis, here you can see that it is in real bad shape. I know it cannot stay at this spot forever, but I couldn’t throw it out either.

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Here is a close-up of the border between the cleaned area and the remaining thick Glosso carpet. One can clearly see the layers upon layers of Glosso that suffocate each other.

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Here is one of the few pieces I left in the tank. It looked pretty healthy and maybe it will be the start of a new carpet.

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Last but not least, a close-up of a new Narrow Leaf Ludwigia – Eh – Sagittaria blossom. It has an air bubble trapped in its center.

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I like the open area, haven't seen your gravel in a very long time!
The glosso really did grow into a (shag) carpet but it probably made cleaning a b**ch, eh?
That sword doesn't look too bad where it is but it will most likely outgrow that spot in no time.
What are your plans for the newly uncovered gravel?

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Ingo

As always a nice looking tank. My only hopes is that my meager efforts will look half as nice on the new tank we've been discussing.

Jim



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First things first! The picture of the flower/air bubble is pretty darn sweet! I like it a lot.

The plant in the right front corner (Stargrass?). Is that a temp. home because it seems really out of place taking way from the flow of the tank. Its just way to tall.

Your plants are growing really really really well but there really really really needs to be something to break up the plants. Right now it seems like a jungle of plants and no true spot to focus on.

If you are going to leave the front open gravel I would say either do something with rock work like tetratech beach front or DW (sorry for bringing up the DW thing again). If you could find some darker plants like a wendtii crypt would help break things up a bit too.

Sorry to hear about all the hours you have been working. I hope it all pays off and you don't kill yourself in the process.


Post # 700 for me!!

Last edited by Wingsdlc at 22-Jan-2006 21:37

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I agree with Wings about some bare rocks or driftwood. I know finding large attractive pieces is hard but for the edge of the bare area you wouldn't need really large pieces, just a few medium sized pieces carefully placed to look like the naturally drifted there. A few strategicly placed darker crypts would also draw attention to them and break up all the green. Hope it makes sense, I wish I could get what's in my head out in type, but it just doesn't work. I just think the green is great but there's not enough contrast.
The stargrass is too tall for where it is. It may look better closer to the left side f the tank where there are taller plants. Not sure there though.

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We seem to be doing the same things.

I too removed my Glosso at the weekend.

I had only put it in out of curiosity as I'd never tried. Now I know I can grow it. Mission accomplished.

Like yours it had overgrown itself multiple times and needed to be cleaned up. I had removed with the itention of trimming and replanting but once out I realised that the the Erect moss had filled in real nice, some hairgrass that had come in with the Glosso had managed to get nicely established and the sand looked nice, so all in all it looked much better without it.

Just goes to show, Glosso is one of those plants that gets lots of ooh's and ah's and a lot of people aspire too, but in the end can be a bigger PITA then it's worth.

Like you I did keep some way off to one side. Just want to keep some going in case I decide to use in another tank. I really like it, but it's just not suitable for the current layout on this tank.

About the Uruquayensis, it will grow up nicely but slowly. I have one that I bought about the same size as yours , it took 4 or 5 months to start putting out leaves of a decent size (about 12". Once it starts the new leaves will continue to increase in size. You did right to move it. I mentioned to you before it's always going to be more of a mid ground plant rather then a background one.

Last edited by bensaf at 22-Jan-2006 21:21


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Thanks everybody for the comments .

Yeah, the Star Grass was a small plantling that I added to the tank when I redid my 20G QT. I was curious as to what it may become (now I know) and later on served as a pawn in the Starr Grass Wars II . It is all the way to the top now and soon I will have to do something about it, just don’t know what yet.

Open gravel or not, I don’t know yet. I think I (we) will get a better idea once all the Glosso is removed, so in maybe 1 to 2 weeks.

The Uruguaensis did already put out quite a few new leaves and even gained a little height, but it became way too shaded in the jungle. There is still a Red Melon Sword in the left back (was a freebee) and it is hanging in. I don’t know if I want that one in the first place, but the cheap guy I am I couldn’t simply neglect the free plant . So overall I have 3 kinds of Swords (besides the grassy ones) in the tank that I am not sure of, as there is also the Red Rubin on the right. The problem I have with all of them is that they will take up quite some real estate on the gravel bed, meaning no other plant can be located very close to it.

Ingo


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tetratech
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I too removed my Glosso at the weekend.
Yeah, but I'm the only one with a BLACK Sand Hawaiian, beach front.

I was curious as to what it may become (now I know) and later on served as a pawn in the Starr Grass Wars II
That poor plant, used as a pawn in your dirtly little war. Putting a plant out of place to compete. Isn't that against the AGA code of ethics.




Last edited by tetratech at 23-Jan-2006 04:41

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Your tank pics are awesome

I'm trying Marsilea Quadrafolia (poor man's glosso). Fitting ! LOL..

Re: Your E. Ura. sword. My E bleheris died in a darker area of the tank, meanwhile my Ozelot Red in a better lit area is doing great so I hear you on plant positioning.

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tetratech -

Well, my beachfront is more like the Long Island North Shore, but without all the garbage .
And what would have happened to your scape if I wouldn’t have used the Star Grass pawn to tickle you a little .

DaFishMan – Oih – DaMossMan – Nice name change

I will have to look up this plant, Marsilea Quadrafolia. And thanks for the compliments on the pictures .

Ingo

EDIT: Yeah, just remembered this plant - Four Leaf Clover. Doesn't that grow rather tall, like 2 inches or so?

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 23-Jan-2006 07:40


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I am not sure on the hight but I was looking into that plant too at one time. I am sure much of what it will turn into depends on your lighting.

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I've just acquired it recently, 3/4 inch height at the moment.

It may be called Marsilea Quadr-I-folia, instead of -A-.
A link for you

[link=http://www.floridadriftwood.com/aquariumplants_marsilea_quadrifolia.html]http://www.floridadriftwood.com/aquariumplants_marsilea_quadrifolia.html" style="COLOR: #FFFFFF[/link]

SOMEONE kept hinting at a name change, so here I be

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Question: How do you know you are an Aquarium Nerd?

Answer: When your co-worker brings you this t-shirt from his vacation trip

Ingo

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:



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And to proof it, here is yet another shot of the flowering Narrow Leaf Sagittaria, this time with a beautiful air bubble in it.



Ingo

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:



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I like the first picture of the flower much better.

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[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
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Wings,

You think so? I would have thought that the fact one can really see the air bubble would make the latter the prettier picture.

But I guess the fact that other parts of the tank are visible in the first picture make it more appealing (in this instance, at least).

Thanks,

Ingo


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I think the first picture is sharper than the second one. I find the blurry plants up close distracting and I really don't thing its as in focus as the first. Just me though.

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OK Wings,

Then I will add the first picture to "My Flower Pictures" thread in the Photo Booth forum

Will have to wait until tonight though.

Thanks,

Ingo


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Oh man... by no means should you be going off of just me....haha

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When your co-worker brings you this t-shirt from his vacation trip
I think I have you beat on the t-shirt geekness thing.

Remember this pic, my son made me a t-shirt for the holidays. Now I have to wear it somewhere



tetratech attached this image:


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Tetra

Next time you get called for jury duty you know what to wear. C'mon, how awesome would that be?


LF, I wouldn't worry so much about the pictures as i would worry about that BBA growing on your sag. leaf in the background...





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tetratech
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Next time you get called for jury duty you know what to wear.
Nowher That is really funny and it would be awesome if I had the guts to do it. I would have to go drinking with Bensaf first.

LF, I wouldn't worry so much about the pictures as i would worry about that BBA growing on your sag. leaf in the background


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... Aaaaanyway, LF, I was cruising ebay and I saw this, another DW piece, possibly suited to cutting. It's pretty large.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Large-Driftwood-Spider-Aquarium-Reptile-FREE-SHIPPING_W0QQitemZ7739817294QQcategoryZ66790QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


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]:|]:|]:|

Having fun here?

If there is any BBA then it is so minor that I don't worry about it at all (at least until you brought it up).

Thanks for that,




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tetratech
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Having fun here?
I would have to say YES!!!!

Well if it makes you feel better I have some BBA too. I stopped my excel treatment and it looks like it's starting to regroup. I think my diandra melted from the excel it's about gone.

Anyway I don't have time or the intent on changing all my parameters to suit one plant. Everything else is doing great.

I guess I'll have to raise my co2 to 100 to get rid of the BBA



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NowherMan6
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Having fun here?


Absolutely!



And yes, I have some BBA too, on the older leaves of my tenellus. And some hair algae on some rotala and luwigia Dangit, where's that Excel...


I hear ya on the CO2, tetra. That's not a bad idea. Anyone want to buy 15 harley rasboras and a few yo-yo loaches?


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Like NowherMan6 would say:

Aaaaanyway,



This is not a Sag leaf but a very old and no longer growing Crypt Retrospiralis leaf. And just another point to proof that slow or non growing leaves are more e to algae.



Ingo

EDIT: As a side note, have you seen my Avg Posts/Day?

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 24-Jan-2006 13:30


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10.0 post per day
LF, your an animal

At that rate you'll pass me on Sunday, just in time for your weekly update.

Last edited by tetratech at 24-Jan-2006 13:42

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How do you find out your average postings? Do you have to be a super member??

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tetratech
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Wingdsc,

No, just go to profile in any of your posts and there's a line that says "avg post/day"



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Well,

The yesterday was not an easy day for me.

Most of all I was worried that my thread wouldn't make it into the new design.

But also I showed clear signs of withdrawal.

I missed you all,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 12:30Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Oddly enough though there is a page 48 in this thread while all new entries are still written to page 47.

And all new entries seem to be dated as Jan 4th.

I guess we will see if we ever catch up with this extra page.

Ingo


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Things are just a little bit wild here now. It is crazy how much time I spend here and when I can't I go a little nuts.... I feel your pain LF!

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 13:56Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Hey LF and Wings,

I'm there with ya too.

The funny thing is, when I was at work and I tried going to FP, I got an IE message saying I was forbidden to view that page, and I was scared out of my mind that my firm saw I was going on this website so often they blocked me from using it

But anyway... brrr, is it just me or is the new format a little cold?


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LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks Guys,

I guess we will see when we catch up with that extra page that follows this one

I think it will be a while until I have gotten used to the new interface, but it seems to have some cool features, like this one: MTS

just move the mouse over the letters and you will see.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 15:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Most of all I was worried that my thread wouldn't make it into the new design.


Actually we (and I'm not saying who "we"is) thought your log had broken FP. Also had a giggle at the thought of you going cold turkey without you 10 posts a day.

Have to agree with nowhere, while I love the new features, I do find the color scheme a bit Very chilly. I'm sure we'll get used to it in time.


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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Ok Bensaf,

Put the cards on the table - Who are the "we"



This one day of silence cost me my 10ppd and I will have to work hard to get back to it

Ingo

HA - I finally caught up with that extra page


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Put the cards on the table
Are you implying something - HOC

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 16:07Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Who is behind the Plant-Nerd Conspiracy?

On the tank front - I have no news.

The Apon has put up another flower, looking very nice but I don't want to bother you with yet another flower picture (of the same kind).

The Pearls, lost their shyness and, unlike in the 20G QT, the male and female hang out and patrol the tank together.

The Rainbows in the QT are doing fine too, although the one with the missing fin part doesn't seem to grow it back. Somebody in the LFS or in his other home must have bitten a big chunk out of the fish. He is fine though.

Ingo


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LF,
I was in a LFS that I don't frequent that often. It's run by an old-timer who has been in the business over 35 years. He isn't much for presentation, but he does get alot of fish. It was rainbow city, he had at least 10 species of rainbow fish.

He had yours (praecox), Red Iranians and big Boeseman. He's very pricy. The praecox, were $13.99 and the big Boeseman $39.99.

What did I walk out with you ask? Half a dosen cardinals of course!


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NowherMan6
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LF,

Have the pearls had an effect on the espei breeding? or should i say, the ability of the fry to survive... i don't think they alone could get them to stop breeding


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Thanks for the info tetratech - yeah, I paid $12 for the juvenile Rainbows, adults in my LFS cost $20

NowherMan6 - I have no idea if the Pearls have an influence on the Espei breeding success. Overall it looks like I have less very young Espei, or I simply can't find them in the Jungle. This could be based on the fact that I have loads of fish now that would by chance come across a baby and well, eat it.

I have no chance of counting how many Espei are in there now, probably way too many.

Ingo


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I still can't get over how much you guys are paying for Rainbows. Dwarf Blue's at my store are normaly 4 for $10 and Boesemani for 14 or 11 depeding on how big they are. Most of the time these aren't really small fish.

55G Planted tank thread
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Wingdsc,
What state do you live in? Things are pretty expensive in NY and NJ. Actually the prices of fish very greatly from LFS to LFS in my area anyway. I could pay $1.25 for a cardinal or $2.99. Bolivians $5 to $12. There is a store on the east end of L.I. that is really cheap. I know I've seen Discus there for $20.

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Quick Question Guys (before I go out to dinner):

Have you ever seen this specific piece?



Attached Image:

The Wood



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Looks familiar...


Sly as a fox you are, LF. Glad you got it, it was too good to pass up.

Now, when you arrange that in your tank, enter the tank in the next AGA aquascaping contest and win... whatever it is you win with first place... I expect ten percent of the winnings...


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Thanks NowherMan6,

Now you know why I didn't react at all when you presented the next one you found.

Actually, a small piece on the top right corner broke off and I stuck it on for the picture. Nothing too bad though.

So, now that I have it, what am I going to do with it? How do I clean it (do I have to? ), do I have to make it water-logged before I put it in the tank? What else is there to look out for.

BTW, dimesions in the displayed position are roughly 38" long, 18" heigh, and 22" wide. So in this configuration it wouldn't even fit in. I will take a few more shots so you can see it in different positions.

Thanks NowherMan6 - I challenged you to find me a nice piece and it took you all of 10 minutes to do so

Ingo

PS: BTW, I hope they (aka Adam) fix the problem with the page count. After I caught up with this page I now have another one following this one. And even worse, I cannot access any page that is marked with the dots at the top and bottom of any current page, so right now only 1-5 and 44 and up is accessible. I guess that is a problem in all threads with ... page counts. Darn!


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EditedEdited by tetratech


What can I say LF, "Your an animal"

Seriously, that is a great piece and it holds many possibilites. Have fun with it.



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Ok Guys,

Here are a few more shots of the wood.

Please let me know which position you think looks the best.
Also, I think Nowherman6 mentioned cutting some pieces off and place in the right side of the tank (and tetratech agreed) - what pieces would that be (please)?

The preivously posted on shall be called No1, all following will be numbered accordingly. Simply refer to the number when referencing a preference

Ingo

Attached Image:

No 2



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No 3



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No 5



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
LAST

Actually, this was the same angle than No 2, sorry about that


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LF,
Nice chunk of wood. I like it alot. Does your wife know how much you spent on it? Or doesn't she seem to care anymore. Better spent on wood than hanging out in the pubs with Bensaf.

I vote for Number three for your tank. If it was a non planted tank I think #4 would be cool but to work with plants hanging on and around #3 is where its at. In my personal veiw of things.

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Post InfoPosted 27-Jan-2006 05:32Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Agree, No. 3 looks the best, though they all look really awesome if you ask me

As for washing it, maybe fill up the bath tub with water and add some bleach. Scrub it, then drain the tub, rinse it out, then fill it with clean water and a boat load of Prime and soak the wood over night in it. That should get any nasties out of it. Just soak it real good afterwards. You'll also be able to tell if it sinks on its own. It looks heavy enough, but you never know. If it won't stay down in the tank you may need to break out the power drill and attach a slate base to it - which should be pretty simple.

As for cutting it, without being able to see it in 3D its hard to tell, but In view three I can see cutting along the red line as in the pic below. That'll give you one big branchy piece and one smaller branchy piece - or at least it looks like it would from the angle of the pic.




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bensaf
 
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At last some wood.

No 2 or No.3 looks good. Just make sure the branchy bits are pointing upwards and outwards. Then it's just a case of do you want them to point towards the left or the right.

Be interesting to see how you make this work.




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Thanks everybody for the suggestions

Now I guess the real work will begin, as I already see some problems, grrrr.

For example:

The position of No 2 creates a total heigth (even after separating the suggested section) of 22", too heigh for the tank.

Other layouts create a width of over 18" (up to 22) and the tank is only 18" wide.

When looking at some options to separate sections for a second group I also encouter the issue that the trunk area would look rather bold (compared to the nice skinny branched area) and unsightly.

Soo much work

Ingo


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As NowherMan6 said you always have the option of cutting and adding it to slate or if it sinks you can just cut. Just remember its easy to take things apart but putting them together isn't as easy most of the time. Good Luck!

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Thanks Wings,

I realize that the event of adding this (or any similar) piece of wood is the single most complex task this tank has seen so far. Even the initial planting is easy compared to the tasks at hand.

I am getting more than just a little scared when thinking about the process:

- Make sure wood is cut to fit nicely into the tank
- Make sure position is eye-pleasing
- Make sure wood stays down
- Redo the entire (yes, all of them) plant scape by removing pretty much all plants and putting them in new spots (to accomodate the wood)
- Decide on what to do with the rocks, in particular Rock Valley
- Do this all while maybe 100 fish are in the tank
- Explain to the wife why you need the bath tub for at least for a day
- Explain to the wife why you have to spend another 12 hours on a weekend for tank maintenance

I got my work cut out and my brain is working overtime (so far with no success ).

Ingo


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Hopefully you won't have to take all the plants out.

Definnately cut it up into more manageable pieces.

Good luck explaining the chainsaw to the wife


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Thanks Bensaf,

I can't have a chainsaw, I would be too afraid to lose a leg in the process of cutting the wood .

Good thing I am currently still too busy to complete the Glosso cleanup. The wood will have to wait a week or two anyways. Maybe in that time the situation will become a little clearer.

Thanks again,

Ingo


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Well,

I responded but the post created an error on the site (I swear that my writing wasn't all that bad).

So again,

I don't think I can use a chainsaw as I am too afraid of cutting my leg off in the process.

Also, I am currently still working on the Glosso cleanup so the wood will have to wait a week or two anyway. This should give me some more time to think about possible layouts.

Thanks again,

Ingo


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EditedEdited by Wingsdlc
LF,

No use rushing things. The DW is going to take some time. I would first cut the sucker up into the chunks you want to use (think a lot, check 2,3,4,5,6 times then make your cuts.) its way easier to cut than put them back together. Then start preping the wood. The smaller chunks should make this easier. I wish you the best of luck.

Here is a tank that might give you some ideas.
http://tropicalfishchat.net/index.php?showtopic=1918
The top picture...


Chainsaws are a little scary at first but once you start to use them its like driving a car.

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Post InfoPosted 28-Jan-2006 05:06Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Wings,

Chainsaws are a little scary at first but once you start to use them its like driving a car.


If that is true then I for sure will lose a leg as I crashed my first car within 2 weeks after getting a license

Nice tank link, I see the similarity in wood, but that's about it. The one pictured does not have any focus, sticks coming out all over the place.

Good advice on taking it easy, Wings. I will do that, no need to rush anyway.

Thanks again,

Ingo


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LF,

You best just draw the lines where you want it cut and find a modern day Paul Bunyan to do the cutting for you. No use loosing a leg man.

It was just some ideas. On that site he has some more picture of the tank that are better than that one but I don't feel like looking them up.

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Post InfoPosted 28-Jan-2006 15:00Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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LF,
You could also use a sawsall. A little less intimidating than a chain saw. I use a sawsall to cut my main piece in half.

My Scapes
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Sawsall's Rock! You can do so much with them!

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Weekly Updates - Week 18

Well, this week was marked yet again by not paying too much attention to the tank. Although work has slowed down a little (finally), I decided to spend my time with the family as they haven’t seen too much of me since this year started.

The only think worthwhile mentioning was the arrival of my driftwood, now I will just have to find out what to do with it. One thing is for sure, when I add it to the tank it will require another major replant as there is no space left in the jungle.

The water change this weekend was also used to finish the Glosso cleanup, no there is pretty much none left in the tank. It is hard to believe how much gunk was collected wherever the Glosso has been. I also had to move a few plants for height reasons.

The weekly pictures are only from the last 3 weeks to show the cleanup in succession, then there will be a few close-ups.

This was the tank 2 weeks ago before the cleanup started:


Attached Image:

2 Weeks Ago



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And this was last week with the area around Rock Valley already cleaned:

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Last Week



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And this is today, all Glosso is gone. You also see the new plants (actually not new, but replanted) on the back left and right front:

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Today



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Here is a close-up of the new Rotala Macandra group in the right front, created with the some of the stems that used to be on the left and a few cuttings from the main group:

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Rotala Macandra



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And here is a Green Wendtii, I haven’t seen that plant in a while as the Glosso was all over it:

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Green Wendtii



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Another Green Wendtii, I am amazed that it is still there as it had a hard time pushing leaves through the layers and layers of Glosso:

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Green Wendtii



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Last but not least, and in order to entertain tetratech, here is a close-up of the replanted Star Grass. It got too tall in the front corner and is now helping on the left to make sure that the tank looks just like a jungle:

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Star Grass



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EditedEdited by bcwcat22
The tank is amazing littlefish, I kinda liked the glosso though I see why you took it out.

love the new smilies

"A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man" Simpsons
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Thanks bcwcat22,

Yeah - I liked the Glosso as well, believe me

Until it started to rot underneath. It was my fault, I should have tried to trim it earlier. There is a little left in the tank and who knows, maybe some day I will have another carpet.

Ingo


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Great move taking the star grass out of the front, it looked out of place there. It fits in much better completing the jungle on the left side The macandra looks much better in its place, and hopefully you can keep it low.


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I actually like the gravel you can see in the front of your tank. Adding in the DW will really take your tank to a new level.

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Thanks guys

The spot for the Star Grass is only temporary as well. As are most other plant locations rigth now. Once the wood is added the tank will need a complete makeover as I doubt that any in it's current spot will compliment the new layout. This spot was selected so I can get a feeling of how it would look with the existing plants when grouped.

Do you have any thoughts on the rocks that I have in there? Somehow I think that driftwood would profit more from smaller (than Rock Valley) and boulder shaped rocks.

Ingo


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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Warning:

If you are not interested in my hassle with driftwood, skip the next at least 8 posts, otherwise read on


Well,

I was looking at the wood now for 3 days straight and still couldn't come up with the perfect solution. I decided it is time to take at least some action, otherwise it would sit there forever and never end up in my tank. So, I cut it up .

I decided that the main stem takes up way too much real estate for my plant mass. This basically left me with two useful branches whereby one of them could be divided into two as well (but I haven't done that). Now that I have these two pieces I am not any closer on knowing what to do with them - I am a driftwood failure. Maybe you guys can help me out, as I don't know what to do .

Let me show you some pictures of them. I added measurements below each picture, they are in inches and ordered by length x width x height for the position in which the wood is displayed. Keep in mind that my tank is 72" x 17.5" by 17.5" (from the top of the gravel in the front of the tank to the bottom of the top black rim).

Attached Image:

Main Branch, 19 x 16 x 20



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Next

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Extra Branch, 25 x 7 x 15



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Setup 1

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Configuration No1, 44 x 16 x 15



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Setup 2

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Configuration No2, 43 x 17 x 18.5



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Setup 3

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Configuration No3, 42 x 16 x 16



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Setup 4

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Configuration No4, 44 x 17 x 16



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Setup 5

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Configuration No5, 37 x 16 x 16.5



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Last, Setup 6

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Configuration No6, 45 x 17 x 16.5



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Well,

I am soaking it now in the tub and as expected it doesn't sink. We will see how long it takes until it stays under by itself. The big piece is still too big to be submersed completely and I let the skinny branches stick out.

Ingo

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Wood on a Dive



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Maybe you have this going on but I would put the biggest parts of the drift wood in the back of the tank and have the branches sticking out as much as posible to the front of the tank. It is just kind of hard to picture everything through pictures. (if that made any sence)



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Post InfoPosted 30-Jan-2006 02:57Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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And so it begins...

I'm partial to either 5 or 6.

I had a feeling it wouldn't sink on its own, to keep it down you may need to work creatively with some rocks. Since a lot of the wood will be covered in plants you can probably get away with keeping a rock sitting on top of the base of each piece. It'll also help if you bury each one an inch or so down in the substrate. The brancy parts of it will make the effect, not so much the bases, so it's OK to have a big rock sitting on each one. Heck, you can even work those rocks into the new 'scape. The important thing right now is to clean that sucker with some bleach solution.


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Right one with #5 I didn't see it that way before but if you turn them so the branches are coming at you that would be cool. At least that's how I see it.

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Post InfoPosted 30-Jan-2006 03:52Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Can't say I really like any of the configurations

Not keen on the way they meet like a bridge. I prefer wood to be poking at at angles.

You can use rocks to hold it down or even as support for the wood to lean on to create different angles for the branches.

You really won't get a feel for it until you try playing around with it in the tank. The planting will radically alter the shape of the wood.




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Thanks guys for trying ,

I can only imagine how hard it must be to judge the layout from pictures only; I don't even know how to position it when I hold it in my hands. Here are some more thoughts, randomly I may add:

- Wings, I can't have the braches coming forward, the wood is too long for this
- Yeah, I can see that I will have to use the rocks to hold it down, another design issue to consider (nice large rocks)
- the smaller element is probably too insignificant to make an impact by itself, that's why I tried to include it in the main group (rather than having it placed in the tank by itself with a gap to the big branch)
- One worry is that any layout which has the branches point straight up will disappear in the vegetation. I think that branch width and direction might be too similar to my plants and the whole thing wouldn't make a statement anymore
- Bensaf is right on with the statement that I will see how it looks once it is in the tank. And exactly that was the reason why I predicted that this will be the biggest overhaul ever, even bigger than the initial setup. I cannot have most plants still rooted and try to adjust the wood so it looks good with them, I think it should be the other way around, the plants should support the wood. As such most of the plants will have to be uprooted before placement can begin

Thanks again,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 30-Jan-2006 11:50Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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lovely pieces of wood.

i'd go for setup 5 it looks more like a root system and will look very natural once all the plants are growing around it - look great with 100 little fish swimming around the branches.

i've never seen a piece like that before the closest i came was the one i've got which i more like a stump towards yours.


are you intending to remove most of your plants and then start again after the wood has gone in?

good luck with reaquascapping?

what is it with us hobbists - we design a tank set it up think thats great - few months later we want to change it my girlfriend could never understand that?

where did you get the wood from - i looked through post - just to many pages now.

shekoi

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Post InfoPosted 30-Jan-2006 12:46Profile Homepage MSN PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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shekoi,

Thanks for the input and the compliments on the wood (from hell).

I got it of eBay, I challenged NowherMan6 to find me a nice piece (as they always teased me with my lack of hardscape) and 10 minutes later he linked me up with this one. What can I say, 5 days later and after paying a fortune, I owned that sucker .

Yes, I am afraid I will have to uproot most of my plants when adding the wood. I guess I will have to take a day off from work to do it, my wife will not give me another 12 hour break on a weekend any time soon.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 30-Jan-2006 15:37Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Yes, I am afraid I will have to uproot most of my plants when adding the wood

Is there a doctor in the house?

My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 30-Jan-2006 19:32Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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A doctor ? Why would I need a doctor ?

I am not planning on pulling a muscle when uprooting the plants.

Come to think of it though, I might bang my head against the wall a couple of times in frustration .

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 30-Jan-2006 19:52Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Come to think of it though, I might bang my head against the wall a couple of times in frustration


I can't help but feel at least partially responsible for the madness that's about to take place...


Back in the saddle!
Post InfoPosted 30-Jan-2006 20:07Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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NowherMan6,



Well, don't be surprised if I call you up in case of an emergency during the "change", given that you don't live too far away. And we might even be able to lure tetratech from his island for this operation (if he dares to enter Joisey land) .

No seriously, you did a great job pointing me to this nice piece. Even if all goes wrong, don't feel guilty at all, I am the one who want to put it in.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 30-Jan-2006 20:12Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Oh my...
Those are lovely pieces of wood, and I actually think that layout 2 or 5 would allow you to keep the most jungle-look in the tank.
You are clearly already aware of the HUGE ordeal it's going to be to add the wood and arrange the plants around it, but I thought I would add a few ideas and considerations.

When I tried adding a big piece of wood that wouldn't sink, I really hated the idea of using rocks to keep it down. Now, I was starting from scratch, so I had an easier time of it, but I found that a good unobtrusive way of keeping floating wood down was to tie a long bit of fishing line to a heavy-duty suction cup, and stick the suction cup to the bottom of the tank, then tie the long ends of the fishing line around the wood in the position that I wanted it to be in. Now, since you already have your substrate down, I don't know if this is a feasable solution, but it worked really well for me.

I can't imagine that you do much gravel vacuming with all that plant mass in there, but I noticed that a whole lot of fish waste and uneaten food would collect right under the wood in the crevaces where wood meets gravel, and I think this contributed to some water quality issues with my cories that used that wood to hide under. Just something to bear in mind...

Your plants look so great. I hope you feel it's worth all the work you've been putting into this tank.

Hoping that there must be a word for everything I mean...
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
illustrae,

What a nice entry , thank you so much.

As you already stated, it is probably not a good idea to add a suction cup to this tank. I would have to dig through an average substrate height of about 6 inches, and in the process disturb all the Laterite down there. My tank has currently quite a large group of rocks (which one cannot see anymore) and maybe I can use them gracefully to hold the wood down. Right now it is still soaking in the tub and I will keep it in there as long as I can (means until the wife threatens with divorce ).

Good point with the waste that might collect where wood and gravel meet. I will have to keep that in mind. The problem here is that, at least at the current stage of the tank, I wouldn't even be able to see that area as it is planted so tightly.

And I do feel it is worth putting in all this work. Actually, although it is work, I see it as an exciting part of the hobby. I think I like the road to success as least as much as the success itself. And if all goes wrong, what is the worst that can happen? I start all over again and that would be exciting as well.

Thanks again,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 30-Jan-2006 21:29Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Actually, although it is work, I see it as an exciting part of the hobby. I think I like the road to success as least as much as the success itself. And if all goes wrong, what is the worst that can happen? I start all over again and that would be exciting as well.


That's the one thing all these logs have in common: We never get to the point where we say, OK, looks good, I'll leave it as it is. There's always a new plant to try, another rock or piece of DW to add, another species of fish to look into. It makes it fun and it's very much part of the hobby. And as you correctly pointed out, what's the worst that can happen if things go wrong? You start all over again relive the fun of setting up.


Well, that and divorce, for the married set...

(Hooray for being 23!)


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Post InfoPosted 30-Jan-2006 21:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Should be on a T-Shirt


"The hubby/wife said he'd/she'd leave me if I set-up one more fish tank in the house...
Boy am I gonna miss him/her!
Yippee more room for more tanks!"

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Post InfoPosted 30-Jan-2006 22:54Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Good point with the waste that might collect where wood and gravel meet.

Peronally I've never had a problem and I have alot of dw and rock in my tank but then again LF you don't have a grounds crew. "One reaction leads to another"

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Post InfoPosted 30-Jan-2006 23:12Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
SheKoi
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good luck with the operation - i understand the wife problems - i've already had to get rid of two tanks but least she let me have my new 72gallon shes always moaning when i spend hours on water changes and aquascapping - they just don't understand. you never know she might even help out

what about the fish? are you going to leave them in?

i always worry about my ottos when i reaquascape you never know where they all are.

can't wait see the pictures of you operation!

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you never know she might even help out


Yeah, I don't think so .

I will have to keep the fish in the tank, I don't have another container or whatever that could hold 100 fishies for hours (and keep them warm). Plus, it would take me about an hour just to catch them all .

The wood is, oh surprise, not sinking yet. The water in the tub was a light brown so quite a few tannis are leaking out. I gave it a scrub last night and refilled the tub with fresh water. I also observed some of the white fluffy stuff that grows on wood when freshly submersed.

The "Operation" will not start for a while, probably at least not until the weekend following the coming weekend. I am too busy at work right now.

In addition, I am considering of trading about 30 Espei at the LFS. I think I have too many now. They don't really school all that much anymore as no matter where they go some others will be there already . Maybe one of you would like to have them, I sell them for cheap (compared to the $4 they cost at my LFS), but no shipping, pickup only.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 31-Jan-2006 12:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
SheKoi
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just writing a nice little reply and the computer crashes

can't remember what i was writing now.

What you going to exchange you fish for? or do you get credit of some sorts - at my LFS i get half the sale price of the fish - so in your case get about $60 not bad

i'm getting used to my camara now - hopfully i can train my fish to stand still long enough to get a good photo like yours.
i've posted some on my log
http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/threads/12949.4.htm?83#

Have any idea what the snail is? i've had him for years must have come in on a plants.

do you have any problems with snails in the 125G? i try and check all the plants no - but it is hard to do.

just remebered what i was writing not even that informative - when i was soaking my roots i noticed that there were slight little cracks and holes which were filled with air - so by moving the pieces around releasing the air - helpped it sink quicker.

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Wingsdlc
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When you are rinsing and such are you using hot water? This will help the wood open up and trap in water.

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Post InfoPosted 31-Jan-2006 23:44Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Getting it to stay completely down with no help could take weeks, even months. A rock is the best bet at this point, and can be worked into the aquascape as well. Win-win situation.


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Post InfoPosted 01-Feb-2006 00:26Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks guys,

Yeah, I am refilling the tub with rather hot water in the hope that it will open the pores (just like people's skin).

NowherMan6 - it takes quite a big rock to keep the main piece from floating. Currently I use 2 to hold it down in the tub.

Shekoi - Yeah, I have snails in my 125G, none of which has been added intentionally. There are ramshorn, trumpet, and pond snails. When I do my weekly water change I pick them up when I get the chance, otherwise I leave them alone. I don't think there are too many yet. I think I would like to exchange the 30 Espei for some more Rainbows . It is nice that you get half the selling price, my main LFS is a little cheaper, they sell them for $4 and indicated (and not even that is for sure) that they would give me $1 for each. I might have to inquire at other LFSs and see what they would give me.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 01-Feb-2006 15:24Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Dr. Bonke
 
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Ingo, at least you're getting something for your fish. None of the three LFS that I frequently visit give me anything for fish that I bring them. Last week I had to do a lot of fast talking for them to accept the three angels that I brought them. Getting 1$ a piece is pretty nice IMO.

Your wood will take a long time before it'll sink. Warm water won't make much of a difference I'm afraid, wood pores don't really work that way, they're fixed structures. The best way to do it fast would be to boil the wood. By boiling you make the air expand so much that it will force itself out of the wood, allowing water to enter and occupy those pockets. However, with a piece the size of what you're having there it may be rather difficult to find a big enough pan
Post InfoPosted 01-Feb-2006 16:16Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks Dr. for the input,

Yeah, I sure would need some big kettle to boil that sucker .

But seriously, I actually heard that boiling wood is not a good idea. Supposedly it destroys the cell structure of the wood and the consequence would be a much faster disintegration in the tank.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 01-Feb-2006 16:21Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Dr. Bonke
 
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I suppose boiling wood can do a little bit of damage, but it won't be terribly much. We're talking about dead lignified cells that basically just consist of cell wall material, which is mostly cellulose and lignin. These polymers are very resistant to heat. I've always boiled pieces of bogwood that I've had in my tanks. Some of those I inherited from my grandfather, who had them in his tank for many years, and he had boiled them as well. I've never had a piece fall apart on me or rot. If it indeed does increase the speed of breakdown, then we're still talking about decades I think, longer than any setup of a tank will ever exist.
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Wingsdlc
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LF,

If worse comes to worse I have something we can boil it in. You just have to take a trip to MI to do it. By the time you get back home it will be full of air again for sure!

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Post InfoPosted 02-Feb-2006 03:15Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Wings,

Sounds like a plan

Let's try to make this the most expensive piece of driftwood (in $ per pound) ever to be added to a tank. Purchase cost plus a vacation in MI .

I haven't had too much time to check on the wood for 2 days now and when I looked at it last night I saw the the discoloration of the water is rather minimal. That gives me some hope that it has been in the water for a while in its past.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 02-Feb-2006 12:42Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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LF,

Umm yeah... just let me know and I will get the giant pot ready with some fire wood!

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[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 02-Feb-2006 23:00Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Well, without many words,

I did it, for better or worse.

It took 7 hours , quite a few water changes, lots of fiddling with plants, and what not.

QUESTION: I have Narrow leaf Ludwigia, lots of dwarf sags / chain swords, more crypt retrospiralis, Xmas moss, red rubin sword, and a red melon sword still in the water buckets. SHOULD I ADD ANY OF THESE, AND WHERE? I will dispose of the around 10AM tomorrow morning, my time (US East).

Here are 8 pictures, not many words though, I will write more tomorrow. No1, tank before change:

Attached Image:

Before



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Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 06:23Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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No2, Quite a few plants have been removed, the water quality is going downhill:

Attached Image:

First Round of Plant Removal



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Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 06:24Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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No3, A lot of plants gone by now, I am worried how the fish will handle this soup:

Attached Image:

More Plants Gone



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LITTLE_FISH
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No4, Only the Apons and Cyperus are left, a few vacuuming sessions later.

Attached Image:

Little Left



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Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 06:27Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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No5, The wood has been added, took quite a while and many curses until it was in place:

Attached Image:

Introducing the Wood



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Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 06:28Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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No6, Partial water change to up the water quality, filter was also rinsed (not too much though, bacteria - I know). The Apon had to go to, didn't like it anymore:

Attached Image:

Water Change



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LITTLE_FISH
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No7, Tank is refilled, more rocks are added. Do you see all the Espei :

Attached Image:

Hardware in Place



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Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 06:31Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
No8, and last for now. The tank is fully planted, except if you have some info and then I could add it tomorrow. I am intending to try my luck with hair grass in the front again, but I will have to get it first. I will go to sleep now, let me know what you think (even if you don't like it )

Ingo

Attached Image:

All Done



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Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 06:33Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bcwcat22
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Wow, I love the new drift wood and rock formations. Keep us posted on the tank.

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Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 07:35Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Hey, looks awesome. Hope your fish enjoy the new scenery.

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Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 08:27Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
upikabu
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EditedEdited by upikabu
The driftwoods look great, Ingo. I prefer the new look, much cleaner. I think you need more red plants though - the macaranda look too prominent as the only red plants. Maybe put the ludwidgia (I assume those were the reddish plants in the middle in the "before" pic) on the back right side (behind the driftwood & anubias).

I can't remember what your red swords look like, but I would try putting one on the far left corner, in front of the lone rock (instead of the few grassy plants - cyperus?). Maybe plant the dwarf sags on the front right corner, in front of the rock?

Anyways, looking good!

Attached Image:


-P
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Dr. Bonke
 
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Hey Ingo, it sure is a lovely piece of wood, and I think you've found the best orientation for is as well. I love the way the roots are sticking upwards at odd angles, but why did you put it so right in the middle? It looks good, but in my opinion it would have looked even better if you had put it slightly off-center to the left. Now it forces your eyes to the center of the tank, and leaves the sides a little as an after thought. If you move it a bit to the left it will create a focal point on that side and leaves the right side of the tank open for other interesting stuff. Nice work in any case, in a couple of weeks it should be possible to remove that big rock, or alter its orientation a little
Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 10:12Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks everybody for the input

Paulus - Thanks for the drawings and your ideas. Here are the problems I have with the options you gave me:

- The red rubin is currently 3/4 of the tank height and takes up quite some ground real estate as well. I think it would be too big in the left front (twice as big as you were drawing it). The plants in front of that rock are sags.
- The Ludwigia could look nice there, but a) the tank is not deep enough for a group of plants behind the Anubias in the right back, b) the plants would get shaded by the Retrospiralis and slowly die off, and c) I thought I try an all green (besides a few wendtiis that one cannot see in the total shot) with one shockingly red area (silly me).
- The sags in my tank tend to grow rather big and would quickly make the rock (on the right) behind them meaningless and hidden.

I will take a closer look this morning and see what can be done.


Dr. - Grrr, you are right, the wood is in the middle. I didn't intend to make the branch group the center point of the layout, the group to its right is supposed to be the center. Ohlala, what to do? It is impossible for me to move it now, except if I am going to uproot quite a few plants again. Maybe I can wait until the wood stays down by itself and then take action, getting it in place was almost an act of violence .

The idea was that the pearl grass on the right of the wood would create a lower valley towards the Cyperus in the back. I guess by adding the Macandra to the left I managed to make this group almost meaningless, although I put a lot of detail in it (will show closeups later today - have to make the pictures first).

Maybe I go for tetratech's random chaos layout (not that he has that, but he mentioned Amano has something like that).

It never ends

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 14:21Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
SheKoi
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good job -hope you had fun

doesn't your tank make that bogwood look small? in the tub it looked huge now can hardly see it.

how long did it take you in total?

i'd let the plants you have in recover and spread out again before deciding what else to end - but do need something in the forground.

did you catch any of the espei to sell on?

are your ottos ok didn't throw any out by accident?

Karl.

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Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 14:30Profile Homepage MSN PM Edit Delete Report 
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The wood looks good. It is a little centered but if it's major work to move it I wouldn't bother.

The Cyperus is a beautiful plant I'd probably prefer it behind the rocks but again if it's a headache to move It loks good where it is.

The Macrandra does look out of place mainly because it's out on it own. If it had more green behind and beside it, that wouldn't be so noticeable. It may work better in the spot where the pearlgrass is , but then you'd have to keep it a bit lower so it doesn't block the view of the Cyperus.

Keep the Rubin. I'd but it at the far right beside between the Cyperus and the Retro and behind the big Anubias there. Alternately it you move the the R.Macrandra put the Rubin where that is now. It'll balance out the reds a bit.

You are going to need a big bold species of stem plant that will make a statement and anchor the scope. Ideally that will go at either the location where the MAcrandra is or the location where the cyperus is. Depend which way you want to go. I've mentioned a few species before - Aromatica, Ammania, Stellata Broadleaf, Ludwigia Cuba. Something nig and brassy that you can build around.

The front left needs Crypts preferably something like Red Wendtii. The color and leaf shape will balance out the grassy sags etc.

Did you chuck all the moss ? The wood could do with some aging.

That part where the big rock is hold ing down the wood - fill it and cover up the structure with Narrow Leaf Fern or Wendelov. Again the darker more horizontal look will offset the vertical grassy types. Alternately a big dark Anubias Coffeefolia.

It's on the way. A few small details needed. Need to make the forground more interesting . I'm sure I'll think of more later.



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Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 15:12Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Bensaf,

Thanks boss

- yup, moving the wood is a PITA. The wife had to close the door to the basement so the kids don't hear me cursing
- The Cyperus, after all this time that it is in the tank already, has just gotten established (takes a long time to do so, as you mentioned way back when I got it). So it has to stay
- Macandra in front of the Cyperus sounds like a plan, I will give it a go in 30 min (lights on for fishies)
- Red Rubin in the spot where the Macandra is now sounds good too, I will add some more green grasses (Retro, I guess) besides (behind) it as it is not big enough to fill the whole spot
- Bold Stems: I still have 3 of the crippled Althernanthera that I couldn't identify. They are currently in front of the Macandra and invisible as they blend right in. Maybe I can make them grow better, now that they actually get propper light
- The front left has a crypt wendtii, red . It just doesn't show in the picture as it is too small (maybe 10 leaves) because it had been covered by dwarf sags / chain swords in the past (and Glosso).
- Yup, chucked all the moss. I think the wood looks great without it and I have enough of putting it on rocks. Major pain on pruning because all hardscape cannot easily removed for that purpose (big mess each time). I found moss in all plants from pruning cuttings
- There is not much space left in front of that giant rock to keep the wood in place. I might have to wait to finalize that aread until this rock can be replaced by a smaller rock.
- Foreground more intersting: Given that I place the Macandra in the spot where the Pearl Grass is now I will use that to plant a "lawn" of it in the front . Might not work too well, but I think it is worth a try. If not, I thought about hair grass.

Thanks again Bensaf,

Ingo


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Shekoi,

Sorry, only now saw your entry, thanks

It took SEVEN hours, from 10 AM to 5PM. I know this would have been the perfect opportunity to catch the Espei, but there was no time and I also have to check with the LFS first to see if and when they would like them. I thought about it, but I had to focus on one task at a time .

About the Otos: yeah, I got very worried as I found only 5 out of 6. I thought one might be in a plant bucket, but eventually found him/her munching on a Cyperus leaf (the only plant not removed from the tank during the process. So, all are accounted for .

I agree on no major moves at this time (except the ones mentioned above), besides the fact that I got to hear it from the wife anyway as I neglected my parential duties for yet another day.

And I agree on the foreground as well

Thanks,

Ingo


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LF,

So this is what you were going all day yesterday Remind me how you got your wife to allow another Saturday of tank work...


My comments aren't as rich and plentiful as the others, but my two points:

1.) Just to echo the need for different stem plant groupings - it seems there's so much grassiness going on there, some different leaf shapes in prominent spots I think would help out

2.) IMO the wood is fine where it is. On the one hand, I can see what others are saying - it feels like if you pulled it to the left 5 inches it would be so much better. But after looking at it the hardscape structure itself - the wood plus rocks - is off center, so it doesn't look awkward. My eye tends to see it the latter way now, so it looks good in my book


Back in the saddle!
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K,

Updated as discussed above. No more replanting today, the wife calls on my childcare duties .

Here is the tank,is it better now? Detail shots much later in the day (evening). Can you see some fishies ?

Ingo

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Latest Update



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Hey Little_Fish,

My fish reaction is WOW, what a difference. Now you have a good base to work with and you could fine-tune from here.
Yeah the DW grouping could have been alittle more off center, but I also believe you could work with it where it is. Yes more red would be nice, with just one red grouping it might pull your eye to that spot and conflict with the wood.

I have to give you alot of credit. It must have been difficult to tear the tank down, but it definitely paid off.

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bensaf
 
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Sorry last one was quick. Wife was screaming dinner ready !

- Bold Stems: I still have 3 of the crippled Althernanthera that I couldn't identify. They are currently in front of the Macandra and invisible as they blend right in. Maybe I can make them grow better, now that they actually get propper light


Reineckii is a nice plant, but I find it too bold and dark to be used in big quantities. Looks best behind bright greenery poking ouy the top in a tight bunch -dramtic. But needs to be tall.
Yep 2 reds together never works.

- The front left has a crypt wendtii, red . It just doesn't show in the picture as it is too small (maybe 10 leaves) because it had been covered by dwarf sags / chain swords in the past (and Glosso).

It'll grow taller with more light. Get more to fill out that far left front area. Maybe mix in some green types or different shapes like Willissi or Becketti. A big grove.

- There is not much space left in front of that giant rock to keep the wood in place. I might have to wait to finalize that aread until this rock can be replaced by a smaller rock.

That's why I was suggesting a fern. No need to worry about space.Plonk it on the wood or between the wood and rock. It will hide the fact that the rock is holding the wood down, so you can forget about it. The narrow leaf will give a nice horzontal shape to counter all the vertical grasses. Ferns are great for giving a sense of structure and depth. Having a couple of specimens of about the same size but at different heights gives a wonderful look.You can have one bunch where the rock is holding down the wood and then another bunch higher up -just wedge it in the v where a branch splits for example.

- Foreground more intersting: Given that I place the Macandra in the spot where the Pearl Grass is now I will use that to plant a "lawn" of it in the front . Might not work too well, but I think it is worth a try. If not, I thought about hair grass.

Foregrounds are very hard to too (probably why so many resort to the simple carpet).
What I mean is a few smaller structures to counter the larger main wood and rocks. Adds depth and interest.
What you've got at the moment is plant-small gap-rock-small gap-plant-small gap etc. Bigger but fewer gaps would work better.Tighten things up at the fron, don't be afraid of a few big open areas.
Example:you've got a few anubias scattered around. I'd be tempted to bring them all together in one area near the front and build a mound of them (you can use small rocks to support)maybe a few small river rocks scttered in front or to the side of this planting. Intersting little features like this with open ground between them will give added interest, a sense of order and depth.

Take a while look at the tank and try to visualize little areas of interest you can create.




Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
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bensaf
 
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Just saw the new pic. Much better The macrandra works better with the green behind it and the rubin balance the color. Looks much more co-hesive now.


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
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I LOVE the tank's new look. It is not so much a jungle anymore. I like bensaf's advice on the anubias, it seems to have much more impact when grouped together rather than scattered. As things grow out again, more areas of interest will appear as well I think. Looks good! If it's alright with you I'd like to send before and after pics to my cousin, she wants a fish tank with live plants after she moves and is collecting ideas. I've sent her the link to this site and shown her your thread as well. All she had to say was WOW!

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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Weekly Tank Update - Week 19

Well, the title is rather wrong as I am not going to post past and current full tank shots, the events of this weekend overshadow any normal weekly update by far. The changes performed are dramatic and their outcome makes me feel like I want to introduce you to more details of the new layout. I think that a total shot (you can see it on the previous page of this log) does not reveal the details that this design offers.

But one thing about the general change: Plants that have been removed from the design are - Ludwigia Repens, Xmas Moss, Apons, and the Red Melon Sword, good by .

Now to the entries between my last one and this:

tetratech - Thanks my friend, an almost unconditional compliment from one of my scaping buddies is a rare event, I will have a beer in your honor. Yes, it was mentally very difficult for me to tear down the tank, I honestly can say that I was scared and very worried that I will create nothing but a big mess.

NowherMan6 - Yeah, that was what I did all day yesterday . How did I manage that my wife gives me the time for that - Well, I am sure I will have to pay her back for it one way or another. The start were my child duties today, but I am certain that many more chores will follow.

Bensaf - As you suggested, I will take my time to evaluate additional options. Right now I am just glad the tank is still running.

luvmykrib - Thanks for the compliments. Sure you can send the pictures to your cousin, with a few conditions of course: a) no additional publishing and b) she will have to sign a contract that she is going to read the whole thread which will be followed by a multiple choice quiz about it (just kidding, at least for point b). About the Anubias mountain (and this counts for Bensaf as well): I think you overestimate the size of the tank. Each one of my Anubias takes up quite some significant real estate. If I would put these 5 together I would think that I need at least a quarter of the entire tank just for them. Even if it is a good idea, it would have to wait as I am tired of major changes (for this week).

Anyway, hold your breath as the next 20 entries will be tank pictures. I hope I will not bore you to death.

Thanks for all the support, I could have done it without you folks.

Ingo


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The first picture was taken during the replant. It shows the enormous and entangled root system of the Crypt Retrospiralis. It took me a good 20 minutes just to separate individual plants from this block.

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Retrospiralis Mess



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Another shot from the replant. Can you say Espei ?

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Loads of Espei



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Here is another photo from yesterday, showing the Espei Autobahn (German highway, in case you don't know what that is - no speed limit ).

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Autobahn



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Now a 3 picture series of the tank, just to show some more details and their relationship to the tank. Here is the left side. I bet you that you cannot distinguish between Retrospirals and Narrow leaf Sags, they are mixed with each other. Also, the new position of the Red Rubin Sword is shown.

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Left Side



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Here is the middle, with Sword, Star Grass, and Cyperus in the back.

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Middle Shot



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Here is the right, with its new focus plant – Rotala Macandra.

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Right Shot



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An even closer look at the center, with the wood and the Jersey Star Grass (right tetratech? )

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Center



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And a close-up of the Red Rubin Sword, in front of it you can see the 3 saved Althernanthera stems, I just cannot let go of them.

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Red Rubin



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All the way in front of the Sword is this lineup, some Pearl Grass, 2 Crypt Wendtiis, and a sag.

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Front Part



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Here you see more of the right front corner. I gave the Isoetes Lacustris more of a visible position. More Pearl Grass and 2 Green Wendtiis complete that section.

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Here is the Crypt Wendtii in the left corner, actually - I guess it is a green one. Maybe it will color up now that it gets some light.

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Front Left



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A close-up of the Rotala Macandra group.

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Macandra



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A close-up of the 3 saved Althernanthera stems.

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Althernanthera



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The Anubias Barteri on the left, you can see that it is getting another flower (again). See the bubbles? I observed that all flowers of the Anubias do that before they open. I find it interesting as such a behavior is usually associated with an injured part of a plant.

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Anubias Barteri



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A close-up of the Isoetes Lacustris.

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Isoetes



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For all Oto fans, a nice shot of an Oto inspecting the new driftwood.

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Oto 1



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And here again, I guess there must be food on it already.

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Oto 2



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And for the Harlequin fans, here are two colored up males fighting for dominance (in front of the Jersey Star Grass).

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Who's the Man?



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And here is the winner. Compare his color to the female on the left.

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I am the Boss



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Last but not least, yes, babies survived the mess as well .

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bensaf
 
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Each one of my Anubias takes up quite some significant real estate. If I would put these 5 together I would think that I need at least a quarter of the entire tank just for them.


So ?

If you don't mind half the real estate been taken up by tall grassy plants why worry about 1/4 been taken up by broad darker plants to counteract ?


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If you don't mind half the real estate been taken up by tall grassy plants


Yeah, but not in one spot

I will think about it, maybe sometime I am ready for this

Thanks Bensaf,

Ingo


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EditedEdited by Wingsdlc
Wow! I go home for the weekend and this is what happens! LF! I really like the DW. Personaly I don't find a problem with the placement. Are you going to re grow everything back into a jungle again?

One more thing! I can easly see the rock on the back left side being eaten by your plants once again. Maybe a taller rock there?

P.S.
Dang you have a ton of fish in there!

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NowherMan6
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LF,

Just wanted to say great shots! Were they taken by the Tamron? Whatever you used, the texture of the DW is beautiful in that first oto shot.





Oh, and the oto itself is nice too


Back in the saddle!
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Wings -

Thanks . No, I don't think I will regrow a jungle, at least not on purpose. Hopefully I catch better times when pruning is needed. Good idea about a larger rock on the left, I will see what I can do (without taking up too much ground cover). Yup, loads of fishies .

NowherMan6 -

Were the shots taken by the Tamron? No, they were taken by me . Yes, I think all really close close-ups were taken with the Tamron. I also love the texture of the wood in that Oto shot, this was the main reason this picture made it onto the site. Thanks for the compliment.

Ingo


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I think the new wood looks great, even if it is a bit centered. I think that the really great rock placement counters that a bit. All those rasboras look so cool! I'm disappointed that you got rid of the apons, but I'm well aware how much space they take up, so I understand why you took them out. I cant wait to see the pearlgrass fill in a bit, and that stargrass looks amazing! The rotala macandra really draws the eye, but as pretty much the only red plant in view, it looks a little out of place. I hope your alteranthera bounces back to add a little more pink to the aquascape.
Beautiful re-scaping!

Hoping that there must be a word for everything I mean...
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illustrae,

Thanks for the compliments. Sorry to dissapoint you on the Apon front, I just didn't really like it anymore. The yellowish/greenish leaves in bunches didn't make an impression on me. It had a nice flower once in a while though .

Thanks again,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 06-Feb-2006 17:41Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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LF,
The wood really looks nice, I especially like the shot that you reference the Jersey Stargrass. I just really like the way the stargrass looks with the wood.

One thing I did notice if I may .
I noticed one pick that shows a large size vertical rock on the left side that looks like it's very close to the front glass. Is that there as part of the design or simply to hold down the DW temporarily, becuase it appears to be too big for that position so close to the glass. Just curious.

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EditedEdited by weird22person
Wow. I just read the whole tread. It only took about a month.
Its a nice looking tank and i cant wait for it to fill in after the replant. Im surprised you removed the Xmas Moss because you seamed so concerned about its battle with algae.
One thing i did notice is that there is no movement on the bottom. Maybe a few cories?
Keep up the good work.
Now to tetratech's log...see you in about a month.

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tetratech:

One thing I did notice if I may


- I knew that the unconditional compliment phase would be short lived

I assume you mean the rock at the left of the driftwood trunk. Hm, it is there to hide the cut of the branch. This was the only position the wood really fit in nicely and it left the cut wide in the open and close to the glass. The rock hides that "unnatural" looking aspect of the driftwood. Remember when I had all my rocks further back? Within weeks you couldn't even see them anymore and I think that once things will grow a little this one will be less visible, although not completely hidden (I want to show my rocks).

weird22person - How brave of you
Now all you have to do is to keep up with the thread (and tetratechs, and NowherMan6s, and Dr. Bonkes, and all the others ). Cories are nice, but I think in the long run there will not be too much open space on the substrate. I will have to think about it. Thanks for the suggestion.

Ingo


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I want to show my rocks

If you must

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If you must





Come on tetra, keep it PG-13 in here. There are children about...


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Post InfoPosted 07-Feb-2006 16:49Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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uh, nowher I'm referring to LF's big rock near the front of the glass

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of course! Whoops, my bad... that's 4 years of all boys hgihschool talking there...


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AAAnyway,

Do you guys have a better idea on how I could make the cut section of the driftwood not be visible, I am open for suggestions.

I think you can see the area about 2 pages back on pictures of the tank during the redo.

Thanks,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 07-Feb-2006 19:26Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
SheKoi
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doesn't a rock cover the cut end?

in the last picture page 51 i think - you can't see the cut

could you bury it more in the substrate.

i have the same problem with my bogwood, but i'm going to plant loads small plants right close to the cut end, hopefully hiding it.

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How about a small mound of anubias? Attached to smaller rocks and the piece of driftwood itself. I'm seeing the smaller form of nana and petite, or another nice plant I use for concealing things is java fern windelov, or both in a small mound. Then you could appease bensaf and conceal the cut end at the same time!

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Appeasing bensaf is always a good idea

Below is a picture of the area in question.

There is no way it could be buried, that would have to be a huge mountain of gravel.

Doing the mount thing soooooo close to the front will create similar problems than the rock does right now. A mountain of plants really really close to the front glass.

Ingo

Attached Image:

What to do?



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I'm confused, isn't that part of the DW already blocked by a rock?


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I suppose there's no way of moving it back slightly, just enough that then you could conceal it with a smaller rock with some petite attached? I'm not thinking a HUGE mountain of anubias, rather a small tumble of anubias.

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I'm confused, isn't that part of the DW already blocked by a rock?

I think LF is trying to find alternatives to the rock. I mentioned it was too close and too big to the front glass.


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EditedEdited by tetratech
O.K. This is my first reaction and it will keep all the nice work you've done intact.

Cut that thick base that's sticking up in the air (I mean water) on an angle and then take the same rock you had that was standing up, but now lay it down on the cut angle and plant around it. If it's laying down toward the back of the tank it will be easier to soften with ground cover etc. and will look more natural.



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luvmykrib
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First attempt at this painting on pictures thing so bear with me, here's sort of what I'm saying.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c56/luvmypetz/DriftwoodDilemma.jpg
This gives a bit of an idea of what I am seeing, I'm no artist, and this would also require a bit of space to do.

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Oh, I see. I actually like the big rock close to the grass. It's unusual and certainly presents some opportunites for aquascaping with small plants. If I may repost one of LF's pics (below) I would surround the base with HC, and also have the HC creeping up the side between the rock and wood, blending them together. I've seen it used vertically like this before, plus as discussed in Chaos' thread, HC is a slow grower, not like glosso. Just my opinion, of course



Attached Image:



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You folks are cracking me up.

Well, let's see:

- tetratech: no way I remove the wood right now to saw off part of it, although the thought has crossed my mind. It took me 30 min to put it in place, and that was without any plants in the tank.
- NowherMan6: planting around the rock might be an option, I will have to see.
- luvmykrib: Sounds good, but this would be really Nana Petite then. How about a small Java Fern instead, maybe even attached to the cut directly (if I can figure out how to tie it on under water )? Some crypts might look nice as well, anything that doesn't grow too tall and would not cover the plants behind it from the viewer.

Thanks for trying ,

Ingo


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luvmykrib
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I think that was one of my suggestions, to attach a plant right to the cut end.
I use a slipknot for hard to tie things, it may be tricky but I think doable. Or if you can't tie the plant on, then a smaller rock with the plant on and that should also do the trick.
Yes I meant petite, I also am very fond of java fern (I've had to be) and both are prunable as well, so you can keep them smaller.

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Post InfoPosted 07-Feb-2006 21:02Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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no way I remove the wood right now to saw off part of it, although the thought has crossed my mind. It took me 30 min to put it in place, and that was without any plants

I guess looking at a pic, it's hard to appreciate how hard it would be to take the one piece of wood out.

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luvmykrib
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It's also hard to tell just how close to the glass the branches are. Pictures tend to have no depth perspective to them on the flat computer screen.

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luvmykrib,

Yeah, a small rock with the plant on it sounds good too.

tetratech,

I agree, it looks so easy to remove the wood and put it pack in. But its depth is as deep as the tank, its height almost as high as the tank, parts have plants woven into it (Star Grass and Pearl Grass), and other plants (like Anubias) are planted really close to it. No doubt I would have to replant at least some of them.

I will try to take a picture that shows it from a different perspective, but it will have to wait until tomorrow night as it will be too late today when I get home and too early tomorrow when I leave the house again.

Really, thanks for all the effort in helping making the tank (even) better.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 07-Feb-2006 21:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Then you could appease bensaf and conceal the cut end at the same time!


Hmmmm...... that's because I'm usually right ?

Ram some Java Fern - wendelov or Narrow Leaf in the gap between the wood and the gravel. Job done, no worries about shading etc.


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Post InfoPosted 08-Feb-2006 08:39Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
luvmykrib
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There's always a simpler solution than we can see, probably because we're so close to our own problem and need some perspective. As the other plants begin to fill in it won't be as obvious, but sticking anything in front of it will help to hide it for now.

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Post InfoPosted 08-Feb-2006 21:16Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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If you ever do deside to move it you could trim the edges to look more natural. Go at the thing with a saw and some heavy sandpaper.
And i see what you mean about keeping up with the thread. Dont you people have better things to do?

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Well I should do my homework but I am not so sure that would be better....

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As promised (although a little late), here is a picture of the rock to hide the stomp from a different angle. Just so you get a feeling of how close it is to the glass. The Crypt Wendtii leaf tip is touching the glass.

Attached Image:

Close Encounter



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And because tetratech and I had a discussion about "how to plant Anubias", here is a close-up showing how I root my Nana in the substrate.

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Nana in Substrate



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And, so we don't forget these guys, the Pearls are doing great in the tank

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Pearls Together



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And another one where you can see that the males' throat is turning orange. He is becoming a man , I can't wait for the first bubble nest.

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Pearls Again



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Post InfoPosted 10-Feb-2006 01:04Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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great photos again LF

did you say your bogwood was off ebay?

i'm after one that looks like roots for mangrove look, in my 40g, thinking of not having africansi just don't know!

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luvmykrib
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Ingo, the rock IS very close to the glass. It will be tricky trying to figure out how to disguise the cut end without getting too close to the glass.

The gourami's look gorgeous as well, you take great pictures!



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EditedEdited by Wingsdlc
We all should take a trip there and pick out what we want. That is really sweet! Think he would ship to the US?

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All,

Thanks again for the comments on the pictures. Although I sometimes think that I make good pictures there are other time when I feel more like the opposite is true. I have not yet been able to even once capture a larger group of the Espei in one photo. Either it is out of focus, or over-exposed, or under-exposed, or the fish don't show because there is too much green around them .

SheKoi - That is some pile of wood, 2 tons, wow. But they all look very chunky. Yes, I got mine of eBay, with the help of NowherMan6 who pointed my to this particular item (thank again).

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 10-Feb-2006 12:45Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Sorry to sound like a broken record, and please let me know if you want me to stop with the photography stuff, but there are a few ways of getting around the situation you describe regarding capturing the espei school. First set camera to ISO 1600. Next, and most importantly, when taking a shot of a large school you need depth of field. Camera blur is one thing, but with many lenses you don't realize how shallow DOF is at the max aperture (2.8 in the case of the Tamron) I can tell with many of your close-up pictures that either you or the camera is using the max aperture - part of the subject is in focus, but another part less than an inch away is blurred, this is the tell-tale sign. Schools don't line up one right behind the other, they are all different distances from the camera so you need to use a smaller aperture to capture all of them in reasonable focus. Set aperture to 5.6 minimum, see if you can get away with that, otherwise try f/8 or even f/11 (may be too slow shutter speed, try anyway) That should at least help keep them all in focus and the high ISO should help you stop the motion. As for exposure issues, you can try spot metering, or use center-weighted. Using too wide an area will throw you off.


Regarding the wood, it's interesting that they say it's for show only, something to that effect, not specifying aquarium use. I wonder if it's not aquarium safe?


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EditedEdited by tetratech
I guess I have to add an SLR camera to my list. My fastest ISO setting is 400 on my Canon S2 IS. I guess I can get good pics but I would have to put an incredible amount of light over the tank. Like 100wpg.

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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
please let me know if you want me to stop with the photography stuff


PLEASE DON'T STOP

If it wouldn't be for your "photography stuff" then I wouldn't make the pictures that I do. I think you are right on with your evaluation of how I take pictures. I know I have 1/1600 and probably the 2.8 as well. I will try to somehow change to the settings you suggest. As I said in some other content, I am by definition actually a lazy guy and as such haven't even managed yet to take the Tamron instructions out of the package .

Maybe I have some time this weekend to actually focus on getting a school in focus () .

Thanks,

Ingo

EDIT: tetratech - Can't find the smiley with the sunglasses anymore, otherwise I would have posted 5 in a row right here (only see one that indicates cool, but that is not the case with 100wpg )


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EditedEdited by NowherMan6
Thanks I'll bring up the photo stuff sparingly, how about that?


Maybe I have some time this weekend to actually focus on getting a school in focus




Well, you'll be stuck indoors for a few hours on Saturday through Sunday with the snow storm that's coming our way, so you'll have time to play around... as long as it doesn't take you another 12 hours


p.s. - tetra, you've done a great job taking photos with the camera you have, you need not move up unless you really want to


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tetra, you've done a great job taking photos with the camera you have, you need not move up unless you really want to

Thanks nowher, I just have trouble getting those really close clear ones.

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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
I just have trouble getting those really close clear ones


That's not the camera, that's a talent I have



Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 10-Feb-2006 20:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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That's not the camera, that's a talent I have

But of course

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Hows that?

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weird22person,

indicates cool, but 100wpg are more of the opposite

Maybe would be good to describe the feeling of 100wpg.


Anyway, I took 30 shots with all kinds of camera settings, to almost no avail. In this picture (the only one half way descent) you can get an idea about the fish load.

Ingo

Attached Image:

Top Level Dwellers



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Post InfoPosted 11-Feb-2006 01:22Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
luvmykrib
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Ingo, the rock covering the cut end doesn't look too bad at all, as the plants in and around it fill in it will start to look like it serves more of a scaping purpose than a camoflage purpose. The tank looks great! The espei autoban looks like a fun place to be!

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Post InfoPosted 11-Feb-2006 05:55Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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The espei autoban looks like a fun place to be!


Well, I have to say that it reminds me more of rush hour traffic going into Manhattan than the times when I raced over the German Autobahn with 140mph .

Yeah, from this angle the rock doesn't look all that bad, you are right luvmykrib.

Overall I have a feeling that my replanting concluded in too little of a plant mass as I experience enhanced growth of thread / staghorn algae, not too wild though but enough to make me think about it. I might go out and try to find some additional plants, chances are I will not get anything locally as all the common plants seem too boring.

Ingo


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BTW the rock in the back left is already going away....

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Wings,

I know

I might try to put a bigger one in during this afternoons water change. But thanks for reminding me .

I actually see a similar event happening to the stone on the far right so I might replace it as well, if I find a more suitable one in my collection .

Thanks,

Ingo


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I think one of the biggest things you need to look out for is keeping your hardwear visible from some sort of angle. If you don't then whats the point of even having it there.

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Wings,

That's so true. You may remember my last layout (up to a week ago) and there were about 10 rocks in the tank. Did you see any? Maybe one or two, the rest was consumed by the plants. And the only two real large ones were covered in Xmas Moss.

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Very nice pic LF. Tank looks great and it hasn't even filled in yet.

Went to one of my LFS to buy some more cardinals to start my own autobahn, but they only had tiny ones. I was going to take a chance with the UV and all, but when I looked closer at the tank I noticed ICH. Even with th UV don't want to go there.

I did come away with Two Cherry Shrimps and one plant. I believe it is a Rotala wallichii.




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Cool tetratech,

Can't wait to see pictures of the Cherry Shrimp, if they ever show themselves, that is .

And good move on NOT getting the cardinals, why risk it

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A few details of todays water change. Full shots will follow tomorrow in the weekly update.

Some of the following 6 pictures will have questions, so I would appreciate if you could read the text as well

No1: Water Change - the best time to get a group of Espei in focus

Attached Image:

Espei Gang



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Two of my 3 and a half Crypt Lucens. I have them since over two months and they used to be located right in front of the Apons (invisible from the front of the tank).

They haven't done much in the meantime, maybe gained one or two leaves. Is that normal? Now they are to the right of the big wood group more towards the foreground.

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Crypt Lucens



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I went to the LFS today to check on some plants and to see if they would like my Espei. Unfortunately it was very crowded (every Saturday that is the case) and on top of it I saw a tank with juvenile Espeis. I have to say that these don't compare to mine at all. Mine are much fuller and more colored up, which shouldn't be too much of a surprise given that these in the LFS have been shipped from Asia and must be very stressed on top of it. In short, I didn't ask if they want mine as I guess they have enough at the moment.

Anyway, I got this plant. They only had one of them, Crypt Lutea. It came in a small pot with the wool and after removing the latter I planted it as one unit close to a rock. It is just a little shaded (not much) by an Anubias Barteri. Should I have attempted to separate it? Bad spot?

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Crypt Lutea



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The other plant I bought was a small piece of Narrow Leaf Java Fern ( $ 6 ). I just squeezed it in a gap between the rock and the driftwood. Bad idea?

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Narrow Leaf Java Fern



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Here is another shot of it from a little further away (to see it more in perspective to the scape)

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Narrow Leaf Java Fern II



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Last but not least, another Pearl shot. This time their pattern blends right into the air bubbles that rise in the tank shortly after the water change.

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Pearls



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Nice pics LF. I guess most of the young espei survived "Extreme Makeover"

I like the Crypt Lutea. Looks like a good spot.
It's amazing how slim the plant pickings are at the stores.
It's funny to see some highlight plants in the stores that are under lowlight knowing that if they aren't sold within a few weeks there pretty much dead.

I was alittle surprised one of my LFSs had a 125g in the back with only plants in it. In neat rows with two coralife fixtures on top. This was the store I got the riccia from a few weeks ago. When I went back it was all gone and I noticed alot of it in a mess floating with some duckweed and lots of algae all over it.

I'll be posting some pics later tonite after my water change and planting of the Rotala wallichii, but I think I have to renew my premium membership. (As long as my wife lets me)

I'm gonna say a prayer and drink a few brews hoping our tanks don't lose power tonite.

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I am with you tetratech,

How much are we supposed to get? 6 to 12 inches, right?

Snow, in case the others don't know what we are talking about.

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Same deal in Massachusetts. 8-16 inches is conservative they said. I just hope for your fishes sake it isn't icy down in Jersey. Good luck!

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Ok first things first...
The first crypt question. Crypts are substrait eaters and they might need some type of tab fert and maybe more light?

Secondly....
Do you guys get lake effect snow? Where I go to school here in more centeral Mi we get some but its nothing like what I get back home right by the lake. Must of my fellow students don't understand..

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Sunday Morning, 7 AM:

So far we had maybe 10 inches, but it keeps on coming down . It is supposed to be over by mid afternoon, I think.

Anyway - Wings: Crypts are (for the most) low to medium light plants and don't require high light. My substrate has a layer of Laterite and also should have accumulated enough mulm to keep the Crypts happy.

On other notes: I added the Rainbows from the QT to the main tank last night. Here they are all bagged up:

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Rainbows coming in



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Soon after release the fish were still a little shy, here is an Espei checking on the new tankmate (male):

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Check out the new Dude



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The same happened to the girls. Somehow quite a few Espei huddled behind this one for a while. Maybe she got so stressed that she dropped eggs?

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The female being investigated



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But soon after, the Rainbows became more dominant and stated to chase older Espei away and seriously went after young Espeis as a food source. No kidding when one of you (I think it was Wings) said that they are fry control.

Well, here is a picture of the Male Pearl who made sure that even the Rainbows know who is the real boss in the tank. He frequently swam up to them, not in a threatening fashion, but making sure they get out of his way when he comes even closer:

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The Boss



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Here are two males starting to explore. See the one with the missing dorsal fin piece? I wonder how he lost that part - I am sure he would be able to tell quite a story. I mentioned much earlier that he had the missing part since I got him, it seems to be too severe to grow back. My handicapped male

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2 Dwarf Neon Rainbows



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And here is a close-up of a female Rainbow:

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Female Dwarf Neon Rainbow



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And lastly - A male

I think he is the leader

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Male Dwarf Neon Rainbow



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Well don't know how much snow we got, but let's put it this way I had to dig a path 6am this morning so my dog could do his business.

Anyway nice pics LF. Glad the rainbows finally made it to the show.

BTW - Do you put your lights on earlier on the weekend? Just curious since your pics are from this morning.


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tetratech,

The pics are from last night just before lights off. It just took me until this morning to filter out 7 pictures from the 80 that I made (and trim and resize them).

Ingo


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The Yard Fish are having fun in the snow, and breakfast is served

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Yard Fish



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EditedEdited by Wingsdlc
Isn't it crazy how many pictures we have to take to get a few good ones?

Rainbows are looking nice! I am not sure if I said that they would be fry control but I am sure that they will help matters. Right now I have quite a few guppy fry in with my Rainbows but I also feed my fish pretty well.. Do your pearls do anything to them? Are they schooling nice? Mine hang pretty tight. Makes me a happy guy.

Edit:

I know that crypts don't need super light and you do have a good sub down but maybe a lot of the good stuff has been taken up already.

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Just popping in. Great pics LF. I LOVE the snow pic, gorgeous. Keep 'em coming

As for the crypts, they grow slow no matter what. From what i've read parva is by far the slowest, wendtii is like hygro in comparison.. the others are also slow and fickle. It may just be that it hasn't gotten settled since the replant. Maybe it'll take a few weeks? (by which time you'll be ready to uproot the whole damn thing over again )

Off to pay attention to the snow and my visiting gf now...


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Weekly Tank Update - Week 20

This week hasn't seen much change from last weekend. Fertilizers have been added as usual, which may or may not have been a good idea. During this weekends water change I notices quite an increase in thread (short) and even Staghorn Algae, the first one in particular on the back glass (and a few plants) and both on the Cyperus Helferi.

I added two plants to the tank, as suggested (but still small) a small Narrow Leaf Java Fern and a Crypt. Also, on special request by Wings, I replaced the rock on the left with a bigger one .

The Dwarf Neon Rainbows have been added to the tank last night and when checking on them this morning they were not schooling. Instead, each male was chasing after a female, and at least one of them seemed receptive to the male (the one I believe is the leader). I don't think I will have more babies though at this time as the tank is not jungle like enough to provide sufficient hiding space for tiny fry.

The weekly updates are only 5 pictures, as I showed a lot of details already on the previous page and top of this one. Now I only provide a short trip through the tanks evolution.

This was just after the initial planting:

Attached Image:

Week 0



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This is week 5, the tank has already been through its weed phase (used to speed up establishment) and is beginning to be scaped:

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Week 5



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By week 10, the scaping had become the main focus of the tank, many plants were moved and removed and new ones were planted:

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Week 10



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Week 15 was the beginning of the jungle days, plant growth was so immense that it became clear that things will have to change:

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Week 15



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Week 19 was that change during which the biggest replant since the tank's existence was performed:

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Week 19



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Now, the tank as of today, one week after the last picture. Not too much change, but plants begin to re-establish themselves and some growth can be seen as well:

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Week 20 - Today



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LF,

Better rock. It will withstand the jungle to come a little better but I think tall will be better down the road...

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The tank looks great Ingo!
I think the narrow leaf java fern will do a good job where you tucked it. The rock will start to disappear a bit. Anubias seem to prefer to be shaded, at least mine do, I had to move some as it was getting covered in algae where it was. I also like different anubias grouped together for effect, they tend to complement each other. As for the crypts, some of them probably take longer than others to really become established. It took mine almost a year and they are all common types. If you don't move them around anymore they should start to grow more.

The snow! I'm SOOO jealous! That's where it all went! We have not had any real snow fall this year, it's going to be a rough spring and summer if we don't get any! My poor roses and fruit trees may suffer winter kill, not from it being too cold but from not having any snow cover. And my poor boys haven't gotten any good tobogganning in this year either. Enjoy all that snow!

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EditedEdited by tetratech
Actually I think some crawling wisteria would look great around the base of that rock and wood. I actually found some wisteria rooted into my driftwood the other day.

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Actually I think some crawling wisteria would look great around the base of that rock and wood.


LF didn't spend all that money on DW just to surround it with weeds.

But seriously tetra, did you do some sort of wisteria dance to make all the wisteria in everyone's tank grow like crazy? Because mine is not only the second tallest plant in my tank, it's also crawling like mad, taking over my HM....


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EditedEdited by tetratech
But seriously tetra, did you do some sort of wisteria dance to make all the wisteria in everyone's tank grow like crazy

Glad to hear it. Yes in fact, anyone who comes in contact with the Wisteria Wizard should have great success (As long as they stay on my good side.) If not, I will make your wisteria do some ungodly things.

Actually I find it very handy to have around. When I planted the Rotala Wall. I had to remove some and I couldn't beleive how many layers I had. When I setup my 12g as you could see I shoved as much as I could into the back of the tank when I started getting BGA. I really think it helped clean up the water. I also notice because of the leaf size it leaves enough space for corys to rummage thru.

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Thanks all for the input

ONE year for the Crypts to establish themselves? I seriously doubt that mine will ever get established then .

Wisteria in front of the driftwood? That would be right on the glass. Are you sure tetratech?

Ingo


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Wisteria in front of the driftwood? That would be right on the glass. Are you sure tetratech?

It would have to be plantede between the rock and dw and on the left back corner of the rock. As it grows in some of the leaves would wrap around to the front without it being to full.



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ONE year for the Crypts to establish themselves? I seriously doubt that mine will ever get established then


It took almost a year for mine because
A) Low-light conditions under 1 wpg
B) Constant rearranging by moi
C) Possibly underfed (Fertilize? why?)
D) All of the above

Yours are starting to grow one week after re-planting, I doubt it will take a year, they probably just needed some breathing space (don't we all?)

Tetra thinks we all need wisteria in our tanks, is the stuff the cure-all for everything? Maybe we can cure the common cold with Tetratech's Amazing Trained Wisteria TM!
I have to admit I still want some though, the water sprite is driving me mad! Oops too late! Already there!

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What lights do you have on that tank?

We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl year after year
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
hckycoz - I have 386W (2 x 96W 5,000K plus 2 x 96W 6,700K) power compact fluorescent lighting plus 6 moon lights (LEDs) from Coralife. This, and a few more details, can be seen in my profile. Welcome to FP EDIT: and nice signature, Pink Floyd

luvmykrib - Yeah, looks wise Wisteria seems to be prettier than Water Sprite, but that plant has its purpose as well, even if it might be only used as a helper in establishing a new planted tank (like in my case).

tetratech - I guess I will have to think about it. It sounds interesting and maybe one the large rock that holds down the drfitwood goes out then there might be an even better spot for it.

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You will need to figure out what to put in place of that rock eventually. How long until it becomes waterlogged anyway? I finally gave up on the piece I was floating in my water bucket, it didn't seem to want to sink...ever! I get the Geosystems driftwood or the bulk stuff from the Big Al's store in the city, then it is sure to sink.


I just wanted to show off my gold star!

I finally did it, after the practice one which I aced I couldn't seem to get them all right again!

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I get the Geosystems driftwood or the bulk stuff from the Big Al's store in the city

Luv, what is geosystems dw and you must be from the Florida area. Have you been to that new Big Als 18,000 ft store?

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Post InfoPosted 15-Feb-2006 02:57Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
luvmykrib
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Florida is a long way from where I'm at. I am an Alberta CANADA girl. The frozen North is my home, we send our Alberta clipper down that way to remind you guys what cold feels like, well at least we used to! We are finally getting that cold snap I was expecting way back in November.

The Big Al's in the city is in Edmonton, the Capital of Alberta, it is 20 mins from where I'm at.

Geosystems is a new line from Hagen, it is a natural biotope system. The kits are cheaper than the waterhome line in some cases. Wish I had seen that when we got the tank! The DW comes in differing sizes and is usually plastic wrapped or in a box. I like it because it will sink without needing to be soaked, just rinsed and in it goes. They have a line of natural gravel, stones and also a guide for planning your tank. Choose what biotope your fish will be from and then it gives you a selection of gravel, which plants to choose, what water parameters to aim for, pretty much what you need. I find it to be fairly flexible as well, but I am not a cookie cutter kind of person, I always colour outside the lines and the sky isn't always blue either.


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Post InfoPosted 15-Feb-2006 03:56Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Luv,
Excuse me had a senior moment. I did notice the Canadian indicator. Reason I said florida because I know Big Als has started to open retail stores in that state and wanted to see if anyone's been there.


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Post InfoPosted 15-Feb-2006 04:12Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
luvmykrib
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You are forgiven, I wish I had been there, or anywhere for that matter. It would be a lot warmer than here.

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LITTLE_FISH
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luvmykrib,

Congrats on the first gold star, now hold it tight so you don't lose it again

And I am sure tetratech is hiding quite a few goldstars in his avatar and one day soon he will show us all 10 .

About the wood you buy at Big Al's. My LFS has driftwood packed in plastic as well and it works great in my smaller tanks. Only problem is that it leaks tannins for quite a while, but that is only a visual issue.

About my tank: it seems like thread algae is getting settled in. Every day I see a little more. I am dosing the same ferts than before the change. My guess would be that the plant mass is just too little now and plants are still working on estabilshing themselves.

And another thing, in case it helps identifying any imbalance: about half of my Rotala Macandra stems have the top section melting instead of forming new leaves. Just the tip of the plant.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 15-Feb-2006 11:42Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Check nitrates.

Macrandra is picky. Not enough No3 it will stunt , too much No3 it will stunt

Any other plants showing similar ? Smaller leaves , curled crinkled leaves ?


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Post InfoPosted 15-Feb-2006 15:28Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Macrandra is picky. Not enough No3 it will stunt , too much No3 it will stunt

Then what to do about the poor starving Stargrass?

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LITTLE_FISH
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No, no other plant seems to show similar issues, I would assume to see first signs on the Pearl Grass with its tiny leaves - but not (yet).

I have no issues with the Star Grass, except that some leaf tips turn black (no algae).

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 15-Feb-2006 16:48Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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I have no issues with the Star Grass, except that some leaf tips turn black (no algae).

Actually what I meant was if you start to lighten up on No3 for the Macrandra

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LITTLE_FISH
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Hm, so you assume I am overdosing at the moment? Might very well be.

Daily:

1/2 tsp of Potassium Nitrate
1/8 of Potassium Sulfate or 1/8 of Potassium Phosphate (one one day day, the other on the next)
17ml of TMG

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 15-Feb-2006 19:31Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Not saying your defintiely ODing just if you decide to cut current levels to see affect on the rotala.

Seems like alot of no3 especially since you cut out so much mass. Amano builds up levels to match mass, but we all agree no3 doesnt' cause algae.

My current dosing.

3 times/week

.5 tsp no3
.05 tsp po4
15ml flourish

I haven't dosed so4 separately in months.





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Post InfoPosted 15-Feb-2006 19:45Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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tetratech,

I don't care about the sulfate either it is the K that I am after. I don't want to add too much P so I alernate between Potassium Sulfate and Potassium Phosphate. Remember, I got that high tab P.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 15-Feb-2006 20:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Dr. Bonke
 
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let me get this straight you fertilize every day (ingo) or every other day (Tetra)? Considering that my plantload seems heavier than Tetra's I should then move mine to somewhere in the middle I guess? currently I'm dosing twice per week
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LITTLE_FISH
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Yeah Dr.,

EI suggests to dose at least every other day, whereby you dose macros on one day and micros on the other, both 3 times a week. This leaves you with the day before the water change off (except feeding the fishies, of course).

I broke my dosage in half and dose every day to maximize the stability of the nutrient level.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 15-Feb-2006 22:02Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Considering that my plantload seems heavier than Tetra's I should then move mine to somewhere in the middle I guess?


That's the beauty of EI - there isn't one exact dose you need, you're just shooting to get nutrient levels within and broad range, and keep them stable in that range. Three times a week for N and K isn't far out, that's what i do for my 46 gallon. I do 1/4 tsp KNO3 and 1/8 or slightly less K, then Flourish on off days, total 15ml per week or thereabout. In tetras case he has a lot of fast growers in there, tons of wisteria which can suck up nutrients. I think he also likes to keep N high for the stargrass. I try not to dose too much N because I have a relatively high fishload and i think my rotala likes it a little on the lean side. It depends on your plant load but also kinds of plants.

If the schedule Bensaf gave you is working then the results speak for themselves. You can adjust a little bit here and there to see if there are any changes, but the "good" range for are quite broad so you need not worry about hitting a specific target level. Just keep up the weekly WCs


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tetratech
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Considering that my plantload seems heavier than Tetra's

That's an interesting question I first glance yes, Dr. Bonke's tank has much more vertical mass, but I have a thick cushion of wisteria covering about 80% of my substrate and it is several layers deep. If I stood my tank on it's side. I would have 4 feet of the stuff.



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Post InfoPosted 15-Feb-2006 22:05Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Then what to do about the poor starving Stargrass?


This is where plants Macrandra become a pain.

It may be with the same dose of No3 and less plants that it is not been consumed at the same rate so has built up slightly and the Rotala doesn't like it.

Should you reduce No3 to perk up the Rotala ? Well, I wouldn't bother. Keeping No3 levels low to satisfy one plant is a crap shoot. You risk messing up the others. Not worth it IMO. Keep things going and if the Macrandra doesn't like it - tough.

If other plants show syptoms look more closely.

If it is No3, the plant mass will gradually increase to previous levels and consume more, bringing things back into a range the Rotala likes and it will recover quickly, it's a real fast grower.

Leave things be. Only change if you think things are too low. Usually the best change and the best results is to add not decrease.


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 16-Feb-2006 04:19Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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EditedEdited by bensaf
Don't take me wrong. I'm not suggesting high No3 is the Rotalas problem. It's one of a number of possibilities. The fact that you are seeing algae would indicate the opposite.

Re-check everything , especially Co2. When problems occur I almost always increase not reduce. More Co2, more N and P, more micros. It is almost always too little of something, hardly ever too much.

It's just that macrandra is funny, too little it's not happy, too much it's not happy. They are the nagging wives of the aquatic plant world.


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 16-Feb-2006 08:09Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Bensaf,

Thanks for the advice, I was not intending to reduce the amouns of ferts.

The one thing I did 2 days ago was to move a small powerhead that was on the left to the right. That area used to be a little under-circulated and maybe the increased water flow will help evening out the ferts some more. This is not for the Macandra but an attempt to reduce the thread/staghorn algae.

BTW, the new Crypt Lutea seems to settle nicely. Leaves are responding to the light influence and have repositioned themselves to catch more of it. I might (at some point) take it out from its slightly shaded spot and place it in open light.

Thanks again,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 16-Feb-2006 11:34Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Well,

I haven't had much to say in my log in 2 days, but the ever increasing algae is worth a mention.

Here are 6 pictures of the tank as of today, water change will have to wait as my back does not permit me to drag heavy items (like 5G of water). Pulled a muscle from shoveling snow, getting old I guess.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 18-Feb-2006 21:34Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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First a nice one. The center group with wood and Star Grass is looking nice, I think:

Attached Image:

Center Group



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Post InfoPosted 18-Feb-2006 21:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Here is a closeup of malfunctioning/disformed tops of the Rotala Macandra:

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Rotala Macandra



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Post InfoPosted 18-Feb-2006 21:37Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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How about some Staghorn on the Cyperus Helferi:

Attached Image:

Cyperus Helferi



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Post InfoPosted 18-Feb-2006 21:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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And the same algae on the gravel:

Attached Image:

Staghorn



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Post InfoPosted 18-Feb-2006 21:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Now some thread algae on the Red Rubin Sword:

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Red Rubin Sword



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Post InfoPosted 18-Feb-2006 21:39Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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And last but not least, even the new driftwood is getting a layer of Thread algae

Attached Image:

Driftwood



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Post InfoPosted 18-Feb-2006 21:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
ChaosMaximus
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LF,

Hey, even your algae looks nice . They are good pictures. I was just wondering if thats duckweed floating on the top of the tank or if its something else. It looks cool.

Chaos


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Post InfoPosted 18-Feb-2006 22:32Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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The center group with wood and Star Grass is looking nice, I think

Holy Maintenance! It does look nice, but are you crazy putting that stargrass around all that wood.

I think you know my humble opinion on your algae. Forget how much no3, po4 and micros your dosing, this has more to do with light and waste. With your light you have less wiggle room and more room for the algae to creep back in, especially after a major change like you did.


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Post InfoPosted 18-Feb-2006 23:04Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Chaos - Yeah, that is duckweed, but I would advise against it on a small tank as it can spread really fast and shade the whole tank. My tank is pretty much covered in 3 to 4 weeks, although I always only leave a few in.

Tetratech - I need more plants, darn

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 18-Feb-2006 23:55Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bodangit
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Wad the algae up into a ball and make some tribbles!


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Post InfoPosted 19-Feb-2006 05:19Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Dr. Bonke
 
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Ingo,
Looking at the last few algae photos I'm getting a slight deja vu. The stuff on the wood and plants look exactly the way it did on mine before it got completely covered. And yesterday I too found a few threads of staghorn in my tank I'm going to follow you very closely now to see how you will get rid of that Otherwise, great looking!
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LITTLE_FISH
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bodangit - hm, thanks, I guess

Dr. - I had worse algae before, at the time my tank was not established yet. It makes perfect sense that similar events happen now, given that

a) I thinned out the plant mass by at least 50%
b) I uprooted all but one species (although interestingly it is the one with the most threads and staghorn)

Actually, the Cyperus had already some algae while the tank was redone. It definately came from the Xmas moss that was on the rocks and jumped over to leaves of the Cyperus as they bend onto the moss. As a slow grower, it makes sense that the algae feels pretty happy there.

Although I haven't made my mind up completely yet, I am pretty sure that I will start one week of Excel treatment today (after the water change).

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 19-Feb-2006 11:19Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
dan76
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EditedEdited by dan76
hi ingo


long time reader first time poster

sorry, bad joke.

anyway , how are your rainbows doing?


cheers dan

OH TOLEEDY!
Post InfoPosted 19-Feb-2006 12:11Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Yeah Dan,

All the entries I make in your threads, you owe me quite a few

The rainbows are doing just fine. The peruse the tank, sometimes alone and sometimes as a group, but no tight schooling. I also see some males having interest in the ladies, but I would be surprised if any fry would turn up any time soon.

And keep on posting, will ya

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 19-Feb-2006 12:14Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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The Rotala is stunting.

That and the algae my first impression would be low Nitrates.

I'm not a fan of the daily dosing routine you are doing. Trying to micro manage and limit the doses is troublesome. Some plants can grab N quicker and easier then others. By try to add just enough per day is running the risk of one or more species getting left out of the food hunt.

Dosing about 10ppm 3 times (more then even the nest tank can consume in a day) a week will ensure everything gets it's share.
I also see what looks like some white dots on the rotala leaves. White dots on this plant would indicate FE shortage.

Again, I'd be looking at nutrients and adding more. Start with Co2 and N.


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 19-Feb-2006 16:03Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Weekly Tank Update - Week 21

Well, as has been discusses, I am having a small Algae problem.

I couldn't do to much with the tank during the week and during todays water change as my back went out on Wednesday from too much snow shoveling.

What I did was that I added about ten smaller stems of the Bacopa from my 29G, just to increase the plant mass a little.

Also, based on Bensaf's advice, I decided to go back to bi-daily fertilizer routines. I also start another round of Excel treatment.

Today, I added 1tsp Potassium Nitrate and 1/4 tsp of Potassium Phosphate. Also 50ml of Excel. I will add 20ml of TMG later, just to get the micros a head start.

Tomorrow I will add another 30 ml of TMG, the following day the macros again, and the following day 30ml of TMG. From there on it will be the same amount on alternate days. Plus 20ml of Excel on all days (for a week).

I also replaced the sponge in the reactor with a new one, just in case, and beefed up the CO2 to "just below constant stream".

Pictures of this weekly update will be the last 3 weeks since this setup came into being. There is for sure some growth to be seen, in particular the Star Grass likes it in there ( right tetratech? ).

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 20-Feb-2006 01:22Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Week 19, just after replanting:

Attached Image:

Week 19



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Post InfoPosted 20-Feb-2006 01:23Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Week 20

Attached Image:

Week 20



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Post InfoPosted 20-Feb-2006 01:23Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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And today, week 21:

Attached Image:

Week 21



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Post InfoPosted 20-Feb-2006 01:24Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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Star grass is going nuts.

I would work that has the high point and slide everything down to the corners

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
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tetratech
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I know your having some algae problems, but the tank is looking good and will look amazing once it fills in even more.

Today, I added 1tsp Potassium Nitrate and 1/4 tsp of Potassium Phosphate

Curious why are you adding n and p in a 4 to 1 ratio? I must be missing something.


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Post InfoPosted 20-Feb-2006 02:11Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Curious why are you adding n and p in a 4 to 1 ratio? I must be missing something.


1 tspn of KH2PO4 doesn't give the same ppm of phosphate as 1 tspn of KNO3 gives ppm of NO3.

So even if does 4:1 powder doesn't equate to 4:1 ppm.


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 20-Feb-2006 03:42Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
So even if does 4:1 powder doesn't equate to 4:1 ppm.

Glad it's an Estimate Index.
When I check the fertiliator (assuming it's correct) I would have 5.9ppm to 1.8ppm of N to P, a 3.3:1 ratio if I dosed the same way. I forget it's late. What is your source of N and what is your nephew's?



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Post InfoPosted 20-Feb-2006 06:45Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Should have checked my calculator before I said anything shouldn't I ?

Strangley Chuck's calculator differs it gives a result of 7.26ppm of NO3 and 1.77 PO4. Pretty close to a 4:1 ratio

Hmmm.... I wouldn't worry about the P, but that number for N is a bit low , and if the Fertilator is correct I'd consider that a very low dose

I'd definately be looking at upping my NO3 dosing. This nothing to do with ratios , it's just not enough NO3 going in IMO.


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
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LITTLE_FISH
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tetratech and bensaf,

Glad you bring up the calculation again, as I haven't used any calculator in a while.

I would assume that at best I have 115G of water, if not down to 100G. With the 115G I get around 8ppm of N from 1tsp of KNO3. True, this may be a little too low, but what about all the N-forms that are produced by over 100 fish?

P would be at 115G around 2ppm at 1/4tsp, that may be too high, so maybe I should go down to 1/8tsp. Inparticular because my tab has P as well (supposedly, when measured a way while back, 2ppm).

Any thoughts?

Wings - thanks for the suggestion, I will see more when the plants have settled yet again

Ingo


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Wow that is something I haven't thought of. Less water to treat because of all the junk in the tank.

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Wings,

Yeah, I think when you have such a big tank that has an overall volume of 125G then you see some major differences in net volume. What I don't know is if these deductions (like over 200lbs of gravel, various rocks, and the wood) have been considered when the calculator formulas have been put in place.

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You have to start displacing a fair amount of water with all the gravel, wood and rocks. Then as your plant mass grows that has to have some effect too. Maybe not as much as the rocks and such. Food for thought though.

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bensaf
 
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but what about all the N-forms that are produced by over 100 fish?


Forget about it. You can't measure it so don't think about it.

The fish waste will be in the form of NH4. Plants will consume this before they consume NO3, it's easier to access the nitrogen in NH4. So if the NO3 is being consumed it means the NH4 is also being consumed.Beforehand.

NO3 won't cause algae. The tiniest smidgen of NH4 will.This is why the idea of adding more fish to increase NO3 rather then dosing doesn't work. The fish first produce NH4, dangerous, KNO3 is inorganic and safe.

Now , knowing you guys the way I do I am sure you will try to make a case that your current problems are due to fish load. Knock yourselves out.

I believe your problem is low NO3. Add more and see the results.A bit more inorganic NO3 won't hurt anything. Tetra will testify as to what happened when he increased doses. I believe it was all good. /:'


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What I don't know is if these deductions (like over 200lbs of gravel, various rocks, and the wood) have been considered when the calculator formulas have been put in place.



Didn't need to. You do that yourself. You can enter any volume of water you like. It's up to you to calculate how much water in your tank. Just because you have a 40gal tank doesn't mean you have to key in 40gals. You can key 30,35,55 etc.

But again, you don't have to be that precise. ESTIMATIVE Index.


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I know... its all a big guess!

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Post InfoPosted 20-Feb-2006 16:11Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Glad it's an Estimate Index.


But again, you don't have to be that precise. ESTIMATIVE Index


EXACTLY, well not really. That is the key ESTIMATE. Don't worry about hardscape and exact gallon content.
To excess

The tiniest smidgen of NH4 will.This is why the idea of adding more fish to increase NO3 rather then dosing doesn't work. The fish first produce NH4, dangerous, KNO3 is inorganic and safe.

But there is a direct relationship between fish load and algae, with light and mass being the controling factors.



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Ok Ok Bensaf,

I will switch to 1.25tsp of KNO3 and 1/8tsp of Potassium Phosphate, every other day . Happy now

Anyway, I will bring up tetratechs point (and mine) some more.

Fish load and NO3 fertilization: We all agree that plants prefer ammonia etc. over KNO3. Ammonia is only present in a tank with fish (or if someone adds fish food or ammonia for some reason). I assume (proof me otherwise) that ammonia is the same nutrient that the plant need than the one it gets from NO3. If you have no fish then all of this nutrient has to come from NO3. If fish are present then ammonia will be taken up first and only then the NO3 will be consumed. If you have a lot of fish then you may reach a point where only very little of the NO3 will be taken up because soooo much ammonia is available. Ergo, my assumption that I need less KNO3 than calculators tell you.

Am I wrong?

Ingo


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Got bored so I took some more pictures:

Here are two Crypt Wendtii surrounded by Pearl Grass. They just don't seem to grow that well in my tank(s):

Attached Image:

Crypt Wendtii



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The Alternanthera starts to show itself, now that it finally gets some light:

Attached Image:

Alternanthera



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The Boss of the Neons:

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Male Dwarf Neon Rainbow



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And one of my "Millions Fish"

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Espei



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LF,
I think there is always some waste/nh4 in the tank even without any fish. Decaying plant leaves, stems, uneating food will eventually get broken down into waste. And certainly the more plants the more likely the plants will get at the nh4 before the algae has a chance, but with less mass and good light the algae have a fertile environment to take hold.

Crypt Wendti:
Why do you think this plant doesn't grow well?
Nice pics, I really do like the rainbows. I am tempted to put a few in my tank. Do you know if they would eat my shrimp?

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Ergo, my assumption that I need less KNO3 than calculators tell you.


We are actually stepping back about 53 pages now.

All true about the NH4. But as I said you can't quantify it. So how much do you reduce NO3 doses to account for it

All this time and almost 2000 posts later you're still frightened of the nutrients.

Why even bother to reduce the No3 dosing to allow for fish waste? No3 is an inorganic source of N it won't cause algae. So instead of trying to do calculations and allowances for an unknown just add the No3. A little excess won't hurt, a shortage will kick your butt

At this stage of the tanks life you have a lot of plants and a large bacteria colony, NH4 will disappear almost as fast as it's produced.

Keep up with the NO3 dosing, give it 2 -3 weeks and tell us what you see.

For the crypt I always find they do better in planted in groups of 3 or so. They look a bit sad on their own. In groups they seem to go into competition mode and try to outgrow one another.


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EditedEdited by Wingsdlc
I have 9 rainbows in my 40G and they don't touch my glass shrimp. You have some other much cooler types that I don't have a clue about though.

Edit:

Crypts. I have two in my tank and they are growing really well. I just moved one though because I got a new anubias so I don't know what its going to do. Being the plant guy at work I have had to crpts flower. Don't know what I am doing right but its cool stuff.

Oh you guys will love this... My boss today told a customer that the plants I have been feeding at work don't need any extra nutrients other than what fish are giving them...because its a big tank.... Some days....

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Post InfoPosted 21-Feb-2006 03:48Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
upikabu
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For the crypt I always find they do better in planted in groups of 3 or so. They look a bit sad on their own. In groups they seem to go into competition mode and try to outgrow one another.


ITA with this. All my "bushy" crypts started out as a tight bunch of at least 5 individual plants. In the tank where I space out the individual (or 2-3) plants, they don't get as bushy, but spreads out runners to other parts of the tank.

BTW LF, are my eyes bad or is there a little bit of green/hair algae on the leaves of your crypts?

-P
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tetratech -

"Crypt Wendti: Why do you think this plant doesn't grow well?" I have them in the tank since the beginning. When I added them they had about the same number of leaves. Yeah, new ones came, but old ones always melted away. In none of my tanks do Crypt Wendtii have more than 5 leaves each.
And I think that the Rainbows will leave the shrimp alone.

Bensaf -

Deal, I will keep up this dosing and see what happens. To be continued ...
On my next re-arrangement I will try to group the Wendtiis.

Wings -

Thanks for the info. Are your crypts grouped?

Paulus -

Thanks to you for the cypt info as well, gives me already two people with similar experiences.
And yeah, this is thread algae . That is what the recent discussion on NO3 is all about. Your eyes are just fine .

Ingo


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Paulus,
wow good eye! I had to go back and look for it.

LF,

Mine were not grouped. They were probably 5 inches apart. Now they are even farther apart. The once at work are not growing like mine but they are pushing flowers. I would try adding in some root tabs. They might want more nutrients. Remember our cool substraits will not last for ever.

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We are actually stepping back about 53 pages now


Just wanted to second that emotion. Maybe it's the natural cycle of the log. Another 50 pages from now we'll wondering whether KNO3 has been causing that hair algae again


Back in the saddle!
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Ingo - Out of curiosity, have you tested the nitrate level in your tank recently? I'm just wondering approximately how much nitrate you have with all those fish in there.

-P
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Thanks Wings for the update on your Crypts

Paulus - No, I haven't tested anything in at least a month, if not longer.

I used to test quite a bit in the past when I used 1.25tsp of KNO3 every other day (for a while already, not when I started) and my kit (faulty or not) read way over 20ppm, even with less fish. It took over a week of no ferts and 50% water change to get the value around or below 20ppm. Even if the kit was not accurate (tetratech strongly belives - and tested for it - that the kits show way too high of a value), I could see the tendencies and how much is consumed over time. This was the reason I switched over to daily fertilization and reduced dosage (0.5tsp per day).

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EditedEdited by upikabu
Fair enough. You know what I think you need? Some SAE's. They should take care of your occasional hair algae problem, provided you get a group (at least 3 for your size tank) of very young/small juveniles. I know it doesn't solve the root of the problem, but sometimes you can go nuts (or round in circles, in your case ) trying to figure out every minute detail when we know there are a lot of variables (fish stock, amount of waste, plant mass, etc.) at any given time that could contribute to the problem. Just keep dosing the macros.

I know SAE's can get fat and lazy when they get big (esp. when they're alone), but since you have a lot of voracious fish in that tank (espei, rainbows) the SAE's should be outcompeted for food and grow slowly.

Just my 2c.
Cheers,
-Paulus

-P
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My SAE hasn't got fat and lazy yet, he's a very active member in the tank, although he doesn't eat as much algae as he used to, he can be seen nibbling when he's hungry. I tend to underfeed, then sometimes I offer algae flakes before offering the regular flakes. This tends to get him thinking right again, and it seems to be good for the other fish as well.

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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
It was mentioned a little above this entry that my algae and nutrient issues have been discussed 53 pages back. Well, SAE have been discussed maybe 15 pages back and overall there seem to have been more disadvantages than advantages. I initially thought I would like to have them, but couldn't find any in the LFSs, then I decided not to get them and a week later the LFS had a whole tank full.

So for the time being, no SAE for my tank, but thanks anyway for thinking about it as an option .

Ingo


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Gang,

I added a plant ID thread in this forum, if you haven't done so already, could you be so kind and try to help me with the ID by Clicking Here.

Thanks in advance,

Ingo


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Well,

It is 3 days since my last entry and not much has happened that would be worth mentioning, except:

I have been following the new fert routine to the dot, meaning every other day 1.25tsp of KNO3 and 1/8tsp Potassium Phosphate, and the days between 40ml of TMG. In addition, after the water change I added 50ml of Excel and then every following day 20ml. I was curious if this would help the thread/staghorn algae that seemed to be starting to become an issue.

Did it help? No - this kind of algae is still there, spreading even further. Unfortunately, I am now also getting BBA on a few plants, like the leaves of the Cyperus Helferi and Crypt Retrospiralis. Also, the Anubias Nana and Barteri have some odd black markings on them that I cannot identify. It looks like someone had blown dirt over the plants and some of it adhered to the leaves. I will try to take a picture of it a little later in the day.

Also, I will measure some parameters, I for one thing bet you that I will get very high readings of Nitrate and Phosphate. This are the times when my tank makes me angry as I seem to be incapable of figuring out the right levels of ferts. Or maybe it isn't the tank that makes me angry, maybe (most likely) it is myself.

Ingo


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Also, the Anubias Nana and Barteri have some odd black markings on them that I cannot identify. It looks like someone had blown dirt over the plants and some of it adhered to the leaves.


Ingo, do you remember me mentioning the "black algae" on the leaves of some of my plants in my thread (3rd post)? I'm pretty sure it's the same one you're seeing in your anubias. Still don't know what really caused it, but it hasn't come back since I removed the stems that had it.

-P
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Paulus,

It seems to be different as you say your leaves turned black beginning at the edges. My edges are fine, there are little specles all over the leaf surface.

I used to have the algae that started on the edges and that was for sure BBA. And it reacted very well to the Excel treatment.

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Nope, the one I was referring to looked more like black dusting over the leaf surface, particularly in the middle area (not edges). It was most ounced on the hygro polysperma & stricta's leaves. I can't rub the black off with my fingers, they seem to be fused to the leaves.

-P
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Ok,

here is a picture that shows what I mean (Paulus, just like yours? ). It seems to be not confined to any particular part of the tank, and exists on probably 40% of all my Anubias leaves. Grrrrrr

Attached Image:

Spot Stuff



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Gang,

I just did my water change, but not before measuring Nitrates and Phosphates. To my surprise, the Nitrates seem to be within the level, maybe a little over 20ppm (maybe even 30) but not what I expected. Phosphates, on the other hand, are where I expected them, 5ppm. Way too much, just like the last time when I dosed them rather frequently (then I caught it only when it was already 10ppm). I have faith in my phosphate test kit, believe it or not, as I performed extensive dosing tests to the tank to see how the kit will change colors. I have a tab of 2ppm, which should be the maximum given 20ppm of Nitrate. I will cut back on phosphate dosing, I started already by not adding any today, just the 1.25tsp of KNO3 (plus all the other stuff, baking soda, Equilibrium).

The Retrospiralis hasn't taken too kindly on the separation into smaller plants when I did the major overhaul a few weeks back. In good crypt fashion, half the leaves have been or are melting. Similar, the narrow leaf sags have some melting going on, they are also not too wild about the replanting.

An interesting fact: I finished 1 pound (US Pound) of KNO3 today. Just for the fun of it, this means:

- The tank is up and running for 154 days
- I added about 2.9432g per day (1 pound = 453.28g)
- This means I added about 0.54tsp per day
- And it means I added 3.81 ppm per day

I also removed the rock on the right and replaced it by planting this area with clippings of my Narrow Leaf Ludwigia from the 20G (needed trimming anyway). I figured if I don't like it I can take it out again, but more plant mass is probably good right now.

Pictures will follow tomorrow,

Any input is appreciated,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Feb-2006 00:46Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
upikabu
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Ingo, yup I've seen those spots before on my anubias' and radican sword's leaves. The ones on my hygros are more like black dusting, not as distict spots. Could be the same thing though, just shows up different on different leaves. Oh well, I guess we'll just have to wait until bensaf identifies it.

-P
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Ingo,
In regards to the anubias pic. Isn't that a form of beard/brush algae.

Interesting facts about no3 consumation. Did you buy the no3 from gregwatson. If your not placing a full order you could use the Greenlight Stump Remover available at Lowes. It's pure potassium nitrate.

Looking forward to seeing your pics, manana

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Post InfoPosted 26-Feb-2006 02:06Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Looks like brand new BBA.

Check and re-check Co2.

I've had similar stuff, it just stayed that way never got furry like older BBA. I trimmed it off.


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Thanks all for your input on the Anubias spots. I bet you it is Phosphate related. 5ppm is just too much. My CO2 is turned up higher than ever before, too fast to count bubbles and almost a constant flow of air (well, not air but CO2, you know what I mean).

Anyway, I went to the basement this morning to get some ferts for the 29G and saw on light beam fall into the tank through the small window behind it. I grabbed the camera and took some pictures, most of course were pretty bad, holding the camera steady is not that easy in almost no light. Anyway, I thought I share the best 3 pictures.

Here is the beam falling into the tank:

Attached Image:

Let there be light



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Post InfoPosted 26-Feb-2006 16:33Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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And here is another one. A real close-up of the light hitting just the top of a Pearl Grass.

The colors are broken down by the tank glass I guess, but I liked it.

Attached Image:

Pearl in the light



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And lastly, the top of the Star Grass got an extra load of light.

Yeah, I know it is time to trim it as it begins to float along the surface, so maybe next weekend I am going to do that.

Attached Image:

Stars in the light



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Post InfoPosted 26-Feb-2006 16:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Interesting pics, but is the reason your showing this because their nice to look at or are you feeling it is related to your algae issue?

I forget did you start getting the algae before you rescaped with the wood. I think you were, but it got worse after the rescape.

We are living by the same code as far as ferting (I like that word) , the only real difference is lighting and I guess stocking levels. Again I don't think tweaking ferts here and there is going to change anything. Remember it's an estimative index.

My 2 cents if you want it is:

1.Do semi-weekly water changes. With the python it's really not that big of a deal.
2.Pack as much biomaterial you can into your Eheim. Use purigen in the filter as well.
3.Add floating plants
4.Feed less (I'm not saying your overfeeding, but just feed less)
5.I'm sure you doing this, but make sure you do the tetra dance in full attire at least twice a week. You could do it during the water changes to save time.

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Post InfoPosted 26-Feb-2006 21:28Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Weekly Tank Update - Week 22

I will incorporate tetratech's last entry here in this weeks update as it relates directly to the issues at hand, namely algae.

Well, first of all - no, the sun beam pictures were posted purely for their artistic value, even if I am not that much of an artist . I don't think that the 1 minute when the light hits the tank (and it is just a reflection of light from the neighbor's house, not even direct light) has anything to do with algae.

And tetratech - I don't think we are in the same boat with ferting. Every time when I dose Phosphates I have problems like this one. It might be a coincidence because I always tend to dose more by the broad rules after major changes, but I strongly believe that 5ppm of Phosphates does not mean that I "micro manage my macros" - this is 250% of what the Phosphate should be. My tab content is very different than yours and yes, my fish are creating phosphates as well. No more phosphate adding for the next 2 weeks .

Overall, I added two crypts to the tank that are still small, but seem to start to develop new roots - a good sign. Certain plants, in particular the Star Grass, are growing like mad, while others develop black spots (BBA, as Bensaf points out) or are even reduced in number (Duckweed - but don't tell me I am low on KNO3). I added clippings of Narrow Leaf Ludwigia from the 20G to the right hand side to increase the bioload.

EDIT: Feeding a little less sounds good, and yeah - I will try the dance more often, if it helps .

No more talk, more pictures . Here is a nice shot of the Alternanthera, for the first time ever this plant is really kicking into gear.

Attached Image:

Alternanthera reineckii



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Post InfoPosted 27-Feb-2006 00:56Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Here is a picture showing the cuttings of the Narrow Leaf Ludwigia. As you can see, they are very small but the plant is a fast grower, or at least used to be when it was in the tank originally. If all goes well then I will have to trim it the first time in about three weeks.

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Narrow Leaf Ludwigia



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Now, for the full tank shots I don't want to bother you with too many pictures of the same, with just minor growth differences. In anyway, a fair comparison can only be made within the current design, and that is only 4 weeks old.

Here is the tank immediately after the dust had settled from the major overhaul:

Attached Image:

Week 19



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LITTLE_FISH
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And here is the tank today. All looks good from the distance, but up close the algae is really kicking into full gear.

The Star Grass really needs a trimming soon, probably next weekend, if not sooner.

Oh, BTW, I was in the city today and went to a fish store there. Loads and loads of BBA, huge, in almost all of their tanks, plus many fish with fin rot and what not, plus too many dead ones. All plants in bad shape (they even had 2 bushels of Pearl Grass). But the Dwarf Rainbows were half the price then they are here, but I am proud of myself, I resisted .

Attached Image:

Week 22



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EditedEdited by Wingsdlc
LF,

I really like what your tank is turning into. Starting to look a little jungle like again though. Not that thats all bad because we can see your 2x4's sticking out of it.

Edit: On the scape of things... I really think you should work high in the middle to low on the outsides. I am not a big fan of the tall stuff in the back corners. Maybe put that in the middle behind or on the edge of the star grass.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 27-Feb-2006 02:22Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
And tetratech - I don't think we are in the same boat with ferting. Every time when I dose Phosphates I have problems like this one. It might be a coincidence because I always tend to dose more by the broad rules after major changes, but I strongly believe that 5ppm of Phosphates does not mean that I "micro manage my macros"

What I meant was that we are both following the same basic EI dosing principle and the differences in the two tanks are light and maybe fish load. It's strange because I once had unexplained high po4 levels in my tank until I finally realized it was the corrupted eco complete, but I was getting po4 levels in the 50+ppm range.

but I strongly believe that 5ppm of Phosphates does not mean that I "micro manage my macros"

I never said that you are micro managing your macros. That's just a general statement based on EI. Sorry if you thought that.





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Post InfoPosted 27-Feb-2006 04:09Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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That section in the middle is gorgous, LF. I was genuinely excited when I saw that pic.


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Post InfoPosted 27-Feb-2006 05:05Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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No more phosphate adding for the next 2 weeks


I think this is a bad idea. The idea behind EI is to get yourself into a routine of dosing so your plants always have what they need. I think you should keep dosing, but do less. I'm in your boat with the PO4 LF, but I'm going to dose it. No matter how small an amount I find keeps the levels around 1-2 ppm, that's what I'm going to do.

For me it's very easy to first dissolve the powder from Greg Watson into a 2L bottle so that 1mL = .15ppm of PO4 in my tank using Chuck's calculator. Right now that's what I'm dosing every other day. My tap provides the rest. I may still need to increase the dosing as this was a lowball estimate, but I'm going to dose it and stick to it until I find I need to increase or decrease it.

If I were you, that's what I'd do. You don't have a real nasty algae problem, your plants are growing. Stick to it and dose small amounts until your tank levels off at 2ish ppm of PO4. This might take a while, but at least you'll find the right amount to be consistant.



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Post InfoPosted 27-Feb-2006 06:24Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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Wings, tetratech, NowherMan6, and Matty,

Thanks for your input

Wings - I agree with your, building from the visual center down towards the sides would look very nice and I envision something like that (at least for the moment) in the future. But I cannot afford to disrupt the plants currently as they are just beginning to recover from the major replant. As for right now, I will have to stick to this "design".

tetratech - No, I didn't mean to say that you imply I would not follow EI and that I would micro manage. Sorry about that misunderstanding, I was just using your siggie line as a guide for my words. What surprises me though is that I cannot get a clear "You are right, 5ppm Phosphate is too much" out of anyone here .

NowherMan6 - Yeah, that part is nice, maybe because it kind of copies tetratech's center piece section . I guess I will have to order a bunch of wisteria now and replace all other parts with that plant .

Matty - I gave your suggestion quite some thought, even before you made it. Actually, I thought about this already when I had the 10ppm of Phosphate quite a while back. Why do I not want to add more P in the next two weeks: Traditionally I have noticed that my P uptake is not really strong, so a small amount of P is very sufficient (around 2ppm with minimal dosing to keep it there). Having had 5ppm before the 50% water change and having tab water with about 2ppm should give me around 3.5ppm right now. Let's assume that there will be a 1ppm uptake during this week (which I doubt), then I have 2.5ppm before the next water change and after that there should be around 2.25ppm of P. What I may do is dose just a little in the second week, towards the end.

The conceptual issue I have is that I cannot understand that the plants would make any use of more P than necesairy. We all know that EI says a tenth of N in P (20ppm N and 2ppm P) should be more then the plants can "eat". There seems to be zero advantage (and maybe loads of disadvantages) to being over that level. So, why would I dose any, even tiny, amount?


Anyway - Just to make it all more complicated: After my latest entry I went ahead and perused the web focussing on Duckweed. I tried to find a reference that would state something like "High P will kill Duckweed". Unfortunately the opposite was true, it appears that Duckweed likes high P, darn. So, if that is the case, why do I have almost none left in the tank? Yeah, I removed a lot last weekend, but usually it is coming right back. I doubt that the test kits are so off that I would actually be starving P (and N, for that matter). The only other thing I can think off is my Excel treatment which I did during the entire week. Maybe, just like Egeria, Duckweed doesn't do well with a heavy dose of Excel. This would also explain why my other two tanks are Duckweed free, even with the occasional seeding of duckweed.

K, enough rambling for now. You all know how I feel as you all have been in this situation (yeah, same boat tetratech ) when you think you got something figured out and the next thought is reversing the whole logic.

Thanks for sticking with me,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 27-Feb-2006 12:04Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I did some minor water testing last night to see if I actually have enough CO2. Just because I inject an almost constant stream wouldn't have to be equal to good CO2. So I tested for ph and KH

ph = 6.5
KH = 4 (I added a little more baking soda than usual)

That means my CO2 should be around 38 to 40ppm. I guess that is sufficient, right?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 18:48Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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38-40 should be fine. but if you're getting BBA then maybe it's not fine enough...

BTW, you add baking soda? Do you do this after WCs? What's your baking soda dosing schedule and why do you do it?


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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 19:02Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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LF,
I have a clear head right now, so let me interject some very sensible logic.

You say your ph is 6.5 and your kh is 4 so you have 39ppm.
Yes that sounds lovely. But let's say for argument purposes your ph is really 6.6 and your kh is 3.5 (which is totally possible) now your co2 is 26ppm. Still not bad, but... what if your ph is really 6.7 and your kh is 3 now your have co2 of 18ppm (Not as likely, but still very possible).

I have to defer to the great one. (In our little aqua world anyway). "Look at the fish, look at the plants. They will tell you more than some test kit"

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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 19:10Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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I have to defer to the great one. (In our little aqua world anyway). "Look at the fish, look at the plants. They will tell you more than some test kit"


Wayne Gretzky said that? Hm, I don't recall. Maybe it was during his one season with the St. Louis Blues....

... if not that, then I assume you're talking about Bensaf.

Now I know this has been argued over and over again but I'm still hanging on to the test kit lifeline. Are they all really that unreliable, even ph? If a test kit says 5ppm P, are we supposed to just not believe it and keep adding anyway?


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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 19:28Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Yeah Bensaf, not Wayne. I'm such a suck up
There really is no way with a color strip IMO to know exactly what your ph is, so as I showed if the true number is off a little from your test kit than it could mean a big difference in the co2 number, so yeah look at the fish. I could tell you I have constant stream of bubbles and my fish are all looking fine and my tank is 2 feet shorter than LF.

As far as the 5ppm reading, you would hope that would be fairly accruate 4 to 6ppm but who knows.

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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 19:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Wayne Gretzky said that?


Well, I for sure cannot guarantee that I have a ph of 6.5, maybe it is 6.7 or 6.3. I guess I could try to hook up my expensive ph testing device that I never used. Darn, I don't even remember what it is called .

Anyway, yes NowherMan6, I use Baking Soda. After each water change I add about 2tsp of baking soda to the tank to increase my KH which is normally from the tab about 1 KH .

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 20:58Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by nowherman6
Yeah Bensaf, not Wayne. I'm such a suck up


Well he did give you mad props on your tank, so you owe him some serious rear-end smooching.

There really is no way with a color strip IMO to know exactly what your ph is, so as I showed if the true number is off a little from your test kit than it could mean a big difference in the co2 number, so yeah look at the fish. I could tell you I have constant stream of bubbles and my fish are all looking fine and my tank is 2 feet shorter than LF.


It just seems like test kits are useless if you're right. I mean what's the point? Is there even a range within which they're accurate?

For example, my ph test kit shows that before lights out, ph is 6.2 or under - it's a very light yellow. At first I was shocked by this because that would mean my CO2 is in the 90ppm range and my fish should be dead. But they're fine, no gasping at the surface at all, except for some normal gourami air breating. I'm even getting algae growth and my plant growth has slowed down considerably. There clearly isn't too much CO2, maybe even not enough according to the plants... but the test kit says otherwise. How would you advise proceeding?

All this test kit stuff has got me bothered. I'm afraid to even test my phosphates now...


EDIT: Thanks LF. My kH is also low, it's a 2. I may do the same to bump it up a bit. And I don't mean to hijack your thread with the above, it just seemed like an appropriate place to ask because the subject was breached earlier.


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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 21:01Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
NowherMan6,
so you owe him some serious ...


Talking about test kits is not highjacking at all, this is right on topic.

Just like an addict, when I have problems in the tank then I dig out the ole test kit and measure like a madman .

Although I have to say that this time around I measured P, N, ph, and KH exactly once.

I was not going for absolute numbers but rather for comparison to measurements over the last 22 weeks, in good times and in bad (yes, I am married to the tank ). When looking at the recent values I only find one that is not the same then when I was almost algae free, and that is P.

Besides these measurement, the only other differences are:

- more fish
- less plants
- plants not established

Heck, besides the hardware and the substrate the whole tank has changed .

Can't be that hard to pinpoint the reason for the darn thread

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 21:33Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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See that's the danger If your ph is 6.2 and your kh is 2 you have a co2 of 38ppm not 90ppm.

If your ph was 6.0 and your kh still 2 than you have a co2 of 60pmm, big difference.

Now if your ph is 6.0 and your kh is 3, now you have a co2 ppm of 90. Wht if your kh is really 2.5, see what I mean.





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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 21:37Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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more fish
less plants
plants not established


So what's the problem .
Waste, Mass and all that ....light. Now repeat after me "Sung to the tune of all the Jazz" Waste, mass and all that light, waste, mass and all that light.

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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 21:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Now if your ph is 6.0 and your kh is 3, now you have a co2 ppm of 90. Wht if your kh is really 2.5, see what I mean.


Exactly, that's why I'm mad as heck about these test kits, I have no idea. The shade of yellow is between the shades on the chart. Impossible to know.Any more of this and I'm going to just crank the CO2, test kits be damned. I'm almost at the breaking point.


Waste, Mass and all that ....light. Now repeat after me "Sung to the tune of all the Jazz" Waste, mass and all that light, waste, mass and all that light.


Tetra, you've clearly gone mad with power due to the success of your tank. Come down from the edge....


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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 21:51Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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due to the success of your tank


Well, it is a pretty tank I have to say

But don't worry, I assume it is just a question of time until the S hits the F . The Wisteria will revolt and decides that it deserves to be the tallest plant in the tank. The Riccia will have enough of being put in a hairnet and cuts itself lose. The oh so secret Stellata turns into a bean stalk, and the Star Grass into mush because it can't stand the dancing in front of the tank.

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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 22:12Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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A guy posts some pics of his tank and the master makes some nice comments and this is what I get:

Oh tetra, when your tank is covered in slimy brown staghorn and thread alage we'll look back and say that your hubris was your downfall. Reminds me of that famous ending line in Oedipus rex
.

But don't worry, I assume it is just a question of time until the S hits the F . The Wisteria will revolt and decides that it deserves to be the tallest plant in the tank. The Riccia will have enough of being put in a hairnet and cuts itself lose. The oh so secret Stellata turns into a bean stalk, and the Star Grass into mush because it can't stand the dancing in front of the tank.


And I thought wes were friends Don't worry you protists lovers, I'll get even

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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 23:09Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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What do you expect, you're the best of the best now. reminds me of that Far Side cartoon about the cowboy ping-pong players. The old grizzled vet goes "well kid, ya beat me - but now every paddle packin' player in the west lookin to make a name for himself is gonna come lookin' for you - welcome to hell, kid!" (please tell me I'm not the only one who likes the Far Side... )

Well tetra, every foreceps packin' plant person from Queensland to Queens, NY is gonna come lookin for ya...




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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 23:18Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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You guys are seriously cracking me up!

Seriously though, I think tetra (aka grand wizard, mr. all that, etc. ) has a point about lights. In my tanks I've observed that as soon as I upgrade them to the higher light territory (>2.5wpg), there's a very delicate balance between good plant growth and algae appearance (which I haven't quite figured out yet ), all factors (plant mass, fish mass, ferts, CO2) being equal (or similar). In my lower light tanks, I get little to no visible algae, and even when I do, it's easily fixed. With higher light, there's less margin for error, so to speak.

Then again, maybe I'm still dreaming (just got up).

-P
Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 23:59Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Nowher


I guess I'll have to be really careful what I say, cause you all will be gunning for me at the Fish Profile Corral.


Upikabu,
100% correct with the lighting. I mean if you have enough plants and the conditions are good the plants will take advantage of the extra light and grow better, but if the other conditions aren't "upgraded" to take advantage of the new light then that's a big crack for the protist army to march on Rome. Speaking of Rome, I hung up a pic of ChaosMaximus's tank as motivation to keep up with my maintenance and fert schedule. I think if nowher and LF hang up his pic too, they'll feel a whole lot better about their tanks. Sorry Chaos




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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 00:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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We all know that EI says a tenth of N in P (20ppm N and 2ppm P) should be more then the plants can "eat". There seems to be zero advantage (and maybe loads of disadvantages) to being over that level. So, why would I dose any, even tiny, amount?


There's no way you will find that sweet spot in the dosing routine if you stop, start, stop, start. You will be condemned to eternal suffering not knowing how much to dose. I'd say that if you want to go ahead and zero the tank for the next two weeks, just start up with really slow dosing from there, like I said as little as .15ppm a day If you think that's all your plants need beyond what's in the tap. I'm only going to test until I figure out how much I need beyond what's in the tap.


IMO, Test kits are good enough to be taken with a grain of salt. The NO3 and PO4 test kits can be "calibrated" by testing them with a known solution made using Chuck's calculator. Tom Barr has done all the research to show us we don't need exact values for this stuff anyways. This is only to double check our work. First, we have Tom's work to show us with the use of large water changes, an average can be maintained. Then we have the plants to show us if something is amiss. And lastly we have the test kits to explain maybe why something is up.

I feel your pain with the pH test kits, Nowherman. These things are awful hard to read. If the color in the tube is between colors in the chart, then the number is between those. But I have a hard time telling which colors it's inbetween. I had a thread about a week ago about getting a pH controller(By the way LF I'll give you $50 for that thing). The thing with this is that we do want to be exact, and IMO the resolution on the liquid test kits is nowhere near where we need it to be. This is due to the logarithmic nature of the pH scale. A small difference and you can be WAAAAY off.

Oh, and did someone say
St. Louis Blues....
?(sorry I had to)



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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 00:59Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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How would you advise proceeding?


How to proceed without test kits is easy enough. Just add a known quantity of nutrients each week. Then you are in control.

Observing the tank will pretty much show the rest.

Plants like Hygro will show N and K deficiencies very quickly. Holes in old leaves will show lack of K, fall off or yellowing of old leaves will show a lack of N. Plants like Mayacca or red plants will show FE levels by their color.
Want to be sure the Co2 is good. Keep upping it until the fish show a sign of dis-comfort then pull it back just a notch. Or watch the growth, speed size etc, appearance of green spot or BBA will indicate the Co2 is not as good as it should be.
Still getting green spot algae P can be pushed higher.

The test kits are inaccurate to start with, the color charts are difficult to read etc.

Look at the difference in the color and growth in tetras tank (envy is a terrible things boys, leave him be ) since he added more nutrients.

Matty makes a good point that constant chopping and changing of routines is bad for both the tank and you. Stability is important for the tank, constant change makes it diffult to pinpoint issues, you get lost easily.

Usually upping things solve problems, reducing rarely does, more often then not it creates new problems.

I'm sure LF's problems are temporary. Theres a big job done, lot's of mulm kicked in the water. Mulm will cause problems, a big clean up should be done at least once a year. BGA for example can use it for carbonate. I didn't like the daily dosing routine.

I'm sure by upping the N (as a reference to above, his reineckii was doing bad, it's doing better now since he added more N, I'm telling you from experience that if N is low eineckii will stunt and twist and curl it's leaves like nobody, give it N and it'll right itself easy enough. See I do pay attention These are the little things I always look for when somebody is having a problem. I don't go for the fanciful theories. Sometimes you guys can't see the woods for the trees, except for tetra of course, he's great ), keeping the Co2 up and keeping everything stable will stop it. In the meantime hassle it. Remove what you can, Excel blast the rest.


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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 04:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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envy is a terrible things boys, leave him be


Would it be too awful of a pun to say that I'm literally green with envy over Tetra's tank?

Seriously though, he's come a long way following EI, certainly a far cry from turning the old 46 into a brewery tank. He certainly found his way to the path we're all looking for. We owe him a Guiness, or at least a Murphy's

Oh, and I guess we owe Tom Barr one too, for ya know, coming up with the whole EI thing...

I just tossed my pH kit in the garbage with some plant clippings. We'll see where this goes.

Oh and Matty- great to see another hockey fan on the boards Tough going for your Blues right now...


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you get lost easily
Sure do

Well, this was fun again

Anyway,

- I am back on the bi-daily fert routine with macros one and micros the other day, so that should give more stability (although I am most certain that it was Bensaf who once told me that going to daily would be more stable .
- I don't think I can (or want to) do too much about the light as I have the second row on for 3 hours only. I think in this phase my plants need it to re-establish themselves. Half the light is only around 1.5wpg.
- Removing much of the existing algae creates a problem on the Helferi as I would have to cut off almost all leaves. Same counts for the Red Rubin Sword and half the Anubias leaves. How would I go about the wood and rock algae? Take a pad and rub it as good as I can? I cannot remove these entities.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 12:24Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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certainly a far cry from turning the old 46 into a brewery tank
Had to get that jab in didn't ya nowher.

Since you brought it up, here's a pic of me attempting to make black and tans in my kitchen. I think we should have a horror tank thread rated "r" for revolting. I think this pic would quality and I could name a few others


Attached Image:


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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 15:11Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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How would I go about the wood and rock algae? Take a pad and rub it as good as I can? I cannot remove these entities.


Yes, you should be able to get one of those algae scrubber pads pretty cheap. Just be gentle and try not to rock the boat too much and it should come off.

As for the leaves, maybe take as much by hand and then... well, in theory, shouldn't the algae just die off as conditions improve

Had to get that jab in didn't ya nowher.


It wasn't a jab, it's one of my favorite FP member incidents. I didn't think it was as funny until I actually did DIY co2 myself and you realize the mix actually smells just like beer.

Great idea for a thread, start it up in GF


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Yeah,

I guess looking at my tank at this stage and then comparing it to others (like the brewery above, for example) should make me feel better as it really isn't all that bad

But speaking off bad, or what not. I was thinking about lights and nutrients and what not this morning on the bus to work and I remembered an old entry from Bensaf where he reacted to my mass-interference (changing 15 things at the same time) by saying that even if the situation is improving I would never know why. So true

As such, it seems to be actually a good idea that the only parameter that I am changing right now is Phosphates. If it doesn't help, oh well - at least we can explicitly eliminate this one from the culprit list. Which reminds me - You all seem to agree that lowering my P the way I do it would not be good. I really would appreciate if you could help me out and answer the following questions:

1) Did you ever have knowingly 5ppm (or more) of P in your tank?
2) If so, did you have more algae than usual at that time?
3) Hypothetically speaking, plants take up nutrients. Do you belive they would take up more P when there are 5ppm in the water rather than 2ppm?
4) If not, why would it matter in what form a reduction of P is achieved (stop of adding P vs. adding tiny amounts)?

This are my nagging questions, I hope you don't mind

Thanks in advance,

Ingo


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EditedEdited by tetratech
How would I go about the wood and rock algae? Take a pad and rub it as good as I can? I cannot remove these entities

I'm looking for a smily with a violin, but I can't find one. Not to rub it in, but all my hardscape is
removable

Bu seriously, how come you don't have a bigger clean up crew in your tank, I know it's not going to solve the problem. Will the gourmai and/or rainbows eat them. Supposely Cherry shrimps eat a wide variety of algae and are very durable.

Edit: Nowher I think I will start that thread, it can even be a poll, like most horrific tank situation.

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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 15:39Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by bensaf
A thread of horrors, now there's one thread were I wouldn't have a suitable photo

Without trimming the leaves , try applying the Ecel onto the algae directly using a syringe.

1) Did you ever have knowingly 5ppm (or more) of P in your tank?

I have never owned a phosphate test kit. I have never tested for phosphate. I have no idea how much phosphate I have. It could be 1ppm , it could be 10ppm.I do know I add about 5ppm a week ! That's all I really need to know. I used to have to clean the glass a couple a times a week. I hardly ever clean it now.
2) If so, did you have more algae than usual at that time?

Dunno, can somebody post a photo of algae, I've forgotten what it looks like
I do know that green spot algae disappeared when I added a lot of P and was never replced by any other forms.

3) Hypothetically speaking, plants take up nutrients. Do you belive they would take up more P when there are 5ppm in the water rather than 2ppm?

You miss a very important point about nutrients. Don't obsess on uptake rates or what's left behind. It doesn't matter if growth is fast or slow. It doesn't matter if the tank is full of heavy nutrient consuming plants or slow low consuming ones 9once the tank is established). It doesn't matter if there's an excess of 1 ppm or 5ppm of P. What is vital is that there is non limiting growth, whether it be fast or slow. It's niches. Non limiting growth leaves no room for algae. Repeat after me algae do not need an excess of nutrients It's illogical. They need a gap, an opening. Non limiting growth of plants keeps this door firmly shut.

The only way to be certain that you have non limiting conditions is to add the nutrients yourself. Regularly. Keep the door shut. No need for test kits.With kits there will always always be a degree of uncertainty. By adding the nutrients you remove that uncertainty.

By changing things slowly and allowing things to develop you can focus in on issues.

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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 16:04Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Interesting, LF and Nowher are both from Jersey.
O.K. we'll have to work around it. Do everything Bensaf has described but use bottled water from this point forward.


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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 16:31Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Gang,

Don't misunderstand my questions about this P thing as me trying to argue just for the argument sake. I really try to understand it. So please bear with me, if you have to give me the ole Violin so be it, but keep an open mind here. Call it my inexperience, or my tendency to take words in a foreign language (yes, remember - this is my second language) too literally, but I see nobody here who knows of having 5ppm of P and had no algae issues with it. Or call me crazy, I don't mind as long as you at least try to understand where I am coming from with this stuff.

Here are some extracts from Tom Barr's Estimative Index:

"Old myths still abound claiming excess PO4 in tap water causes algae, this has clearly been shown by many hobbyist to be patently false. The tap water has nutrients in it, then you do not have to dose these nearly as much, this is actually a good thing! Why take something out and then add it back again?"

He is not saying how much is considered excess that would not cause algae, though. But he says that if it is in the tab water then you don't have to add it (as much).

Then, in his section about recommended values:

"PO4 range 1.0-3.0 ppm"

And he continues:

"I have added to almost 3ppm of PO4 consistently week after week. Plant's response is incredible." And he says "At some point the plants will not take up any more traces. Same can be said for PO4."

Take the last statement and tag on Bensaf's statement of "Repeat after me algae do not need an excess of nutrients It's illogical. They need a gap, an opening. Non limiting growth of plants keeps this door firmly shut."

Wouldn't that be the opening? Tom never speaks of more than 3ppm of P, and he mentions that there is an uptake limit. The gap between that limit and the currently available 5ppm is the gap, the opening.

Further, Tom writes:

"By knowing what the tap water is comprised of and giving the water company a call to find out what the PO4, NO3, K, and Fe levels are, you can replace the water with water changes and use plain old chemistry or Chuck's calculator to figure out what you need for your nutrient levels without a test kit."

OK - P in my tab is 2ppm, right within his range. The conclusion would be that additional P is only required if P falls based on uptake. This is further supported by his next statement:

"The other issue about folks that often do not add macro nutrients/traces etc, is many do large water changes. These folks often do not know what their tap water has in it. If it is rich in NO3 and PO4 like many regions of the USA and Europe, then each week they do a large water change, they are adding nutrients and CO2. People wondered why my plants did so well with the water changes I did each week and when they tested found high levels of PO4, I was adding KNO3 and lots of traces and high light and high trace dosing and had no algae and dramatic plant health and growth."

But he ends with a comment in a question that states (well known to all of us, as Bensaf uses this as his punch line ): "It assumes that deficencies, not excess causes algae." Bu yet again, he never spoke of more than 3ppm of P.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 18:10Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by tetratech
LF,

Three interesting paragraphs pulled from the EI Article.

"truthfully do not know what levels of NO3 and PO4 (for example) cause problems for plants or induce algae in a fully planted tank. NO3 levels above 40ppm can cause fish health issues. PO4 at very high levels can influence alkalinity (KH) above 5ppm-10ppm."
Has your KH been influenced?

"It is one of the biggest unknown variables in keeping planted tanks, watts/gallon does not tell you much, but rough guides are fine if the aquarist maintain the CO2 and nutrient levels well....An important aspect of this method is the knowledge that excess nutrients do not cause algae blooms as so many authors in the past and many today still maintain without having tested this critically in aquariums with a healthy plant biomass. It is a welcomed relief knowing that “excess” phosphate, nitrate and iron do not cause algae blooms."
Key word here "healthy plant biomass". So here he does leave the door open about excess nutrients and plant mass.

"For many years this has been the assumption but it is incorrect. Ammonium (NH4+) at low levels have been the primary causative agent for algae blooms in terms of an "excess" nutrient. This is why a planted tank using CO2 with moderate to high lighting cannot have enough nitrogen supplied by adding progressively more and more fish to the tank without getting algae blooms. It does not take much ammonium to cause the bloom. If you add NO3 from KNO3 you will not get any algae bloom, if you add even 1/20th of the ammonium you will get a very intense algae bloom. This test can be repeated many times and ran again and again with the same result. Adding NO3 will not induce the bloom."
You already know this, but you added more fish and decreased plant mass.

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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 20:17Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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You already know this, but you added more fish and decreased plant mass.


Very interesting. LF, have you in fact checked for ammonia in your tank?


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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 20:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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You know what? I haven't tested for Ammonia in ages.

I assumed that the fish I physically added are nothing compared to the fish that are in there already. And these have been upping the biofilter gradually as they started of tiny (and small in numbers) and gradually increased in size (and numbers).

I will check tonight

Thanks,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 21:03Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Yes, good idea Nowher you should definitely check, but just becuase your "test kit" doesn't detect anything doesn't mean there isn't enough there to feed algae. I think that is in the EI article as well, that the level might be so small.

BTW - LF, contribute to the new thread
http://www.fishprofiles.com/forums/thread.aspx?id=27413&rp=2

If you have anything

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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 22:07Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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tetratech,

You really created the thread, that's cool .

I will see if I have a good picture that would make an impression and post it. Can't wait until Chaos adds his picture .

I will measure tonight, as promised, but I also guess that I will not get any reading for Ammonia (or hope that I don't). I can imagine that I have upset the biofilter big time during my overhaul and what I have now is still the afterburner of that event.

Thanks,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 22:35Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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If a deficiency of phosphate causes algae, then how come I am not seeing lots of algae? My last test showed .5 ppm P. That's a far cry from 5 ppm! I have since added the NPK that I have, the nitrate at last test was 10 ppm, so I should now have 13.5 ppm, according to the dosing info. It may be a bit less, it may be a bit more, but I may still be short on P, would adding more food help? I'm sure the fish would enjoy it!

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Post InfoPosted 02-Mar-2006 01:09Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Wouldn't that be the opening? Tom never speaks of more than 3ppm of P, and he mentions that there is an uptake limit. The gap between that limit and the currently available 5ppm is the gap, the opening.


That wouldn't qualify as a gap. The nutrients are present all the time whether it be 1ppm or 5ppm. So there's no opening there.
The opening is when something is limiting plant growth. Think of it kind of like a predator constantly circling a herd waiting for a sick, weak or old prey to seperate from the herd, then he strikes. Doesn't make any difference whether there's 10 antelope or 100, he needs to wait for the sick weak one.
Even a small amount (a smidgen maybe ? ) of NH4 is an opening.

Note too when Tom talks about excesses it's never regarding algae issues, never. It's plant/fish toxicity, it's about causing changes in water parameters etc , but never algae.

Even if your tap is 2ppm of P you'll still need some. The uptake per week should be about 3ppm , so you'll s



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luvmykrib - If your P should be really low then you will for sure get algae, now that you have more light and DIY CO2 (if I remember that right), just give it some time

Bensaf - Makes sense. Well, let me take your uptake number of 3ppm per week. I will measure what P is tomorrow and see how much has been tanken up. My uptake for sure did take a big hit with the replant a few weeks back. I guess this was the opening then. Thanks

In general, I did measure and lucky didn't come up with any detectable Ammonia. Yeah, I know, there still may be some small amounts (like a nip ), but at least I am not off the scale.

Thanks again all for hanging in there with my nagging P questions,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 02-Mar-2006 11:43Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
luvmykrib
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0.5 ppm PO4, is it really low? I was reading the Tom Barr EI article and that's right in the range, is there somewhere else where he says more is better? If so, what should I be aiming for? I have only green spot algae, a tiny bit of staghorn in my 25g, more staghorn and green spot in the 10g though.

Side question, what causes black beard algae and what makes it go away? I'm asking for my brother's 55g which has the stuff in it. Low-light, some plants, 2-3 years old, fairly well maintained, he's doing weekly water changes now.

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Post InfoPosted 03-Mar-2006 21:55Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
luvmykrib,

0.5ppm is really low when you want to maintain a 10 to 1 balance of N to P and strive for 20ppm of N. That's at least the values I am playing with at this high tech / high light tank. Your algae (and your brothers) is most likely from a nutrient imbalance. Did you ever see This Page? It shows you some info about what algae is caused by what. BBA has an entry that says it is based on high P, but that has to be put in relation to N, as your P might be just right but N might be too low (and K and micros, of course).

Hope this helps

Anyway - I had the day off and what else is there to do when it is cold outside than tank maintenance? As such I did my weekly water change on all 3 tanks and will create my weeky update today rather than tomorrow or on Sunday.

Weekly Tank Update - Week 23

The last week has seen very little to no action. I just let the plants grow, added my ferts (no P) and food, and that was it. Pretty much all week was spent on discussing how much of P is right . The plants have been doing fine and it seems the spread of thread algae is beginning to slow down or even stop (or I just got used to it). I needed to trim the Star Grass and was immediately reminded of tetratech's first attemp which concluded with bad growth for a while. As such I trimmed it only a little, just enough to allow the water to flow over it.

So, with many more words, here are 3 totals over the last 4 weeks for comparison purposes. This is the tank 4 weeks ago when the current layout was just created:

Attached Image:

Week 19, new Layout



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Post InfoPosted 04-Mar-2006 00:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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In week 21, 2 weeks later, some plants startedt show nice signs of growth. Others, like the Macandra, started to lose leaves and others, like the Helferi showed a major increase in thread algae:

Attached Image:

Week 21



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Post InfoPosted 04-Mar-2006 00:42Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Today, another 2 weeks later, the Star Grass is still growing strong and the Pearl Grass is picking up the pace as well. Algae is still a subject though. I also did not have another major loss of leaves on the Crypt Retrospiralis anymore, only a few melted this week:

Attached Image:



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Post InfoPosted 04-Mar-2006 00:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Here is a close-up of the Alternanthera showing us how beatiful pink-purple the underside of its leaves can be.

Also, have a look at the vertical leaf on the left side and how it is covered in thread algae. That is a leaf from the Red Rubin Sword

Attached Image:

Alternanthera



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Post InfoPosted 04-Mar-2006 00:50Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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This close-up is for all the old and new friends of Amano Pearl Grass (right upikabu ). It is the group that grows right in front of the big branch in the middle of the tank. Some branches are growing straight up while others prefer to crawl along the substrate.

I guess if I would cut off the tall branches I could achieve a nice carpet effect with the crawlers, like the Dr. does.

Attached Image:

Pearl Grass



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Post InfoPosted 04-Mar-2006 00:53Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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And last but not least:

Who says I am fat?

Seriously, the question here is if it is normal that some Otos are so much bigger than others, or if this indicates that the top right one is a female.

I thought it is a nice shot:

Attached Image:

Oto and Oto and OOOOto



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Post InfoPosted 04-Mar-2006 00:55Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Ingo - interesting to see the pearl grass crawling across the substrate. Do they actually send the horizontal runners themselves, or did you something special (e.g. tetra dance ) to encourage it?

Nice fat otto. I assume they have plenty to eat in your tank - you only have 6 right? Your tank can probably feed triple that amount without a hitch. The 3 otos in my 23g are even fatter than yours, plenty of protists to eat I guess.

Cheers!

-P
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Seriously, the question here is if it is normal that some Otos are so much bigger than others, or if this indicates that the top right one is a female.


Interesting. I have one that's the same way fatter then all the others. So much so I thought it was bloat, but it's been that fat for over a year now and still going, so it must be just obesity or a sexual difference. All the others are much slimmer.


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Post InfoPosted 04-Mar-2006 03:30Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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No, I didn't do anything to tame the Pearl Grass, it decided to grow this way all on its own. As to why - I have no idea.

The Otos are a miracle. Why would some under the same conditions (age, food source, tank) become so much fatter than others. I can't imagine it would have anything to do with alpha males as food is available all over the tank.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 04-Mar-2006 11:23Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Female.
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Producing eggs then?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
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Perhaps, but in general, they are already likely quite wide. As with all loricariidae, they reabsorb any eggs not laid.
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very interesting!

So LF where are the weekly pictures??

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luvmykrib
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I have been thinking about the P issue. Here's my thought, excess P and low light, no CO2 may cause BBA, it has in my 10g. In Ingo's tank, excess P and high light and CO2 cause...flowers! In terrestrial plants, the nutrient that encourages blooming is phosphate. Nitrogen makes things green, phosphate makes things bloom and potassium makes roots grow. How different can aquatic plants be from that?
Anyway, now that it is out of my head and here in print I can get some other deep thinking done. Like why no-one has visited me in my thread lately, it's so lonely there.

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Here's my thought, excess P and low light, no CO2 may cause BBA,


Low Co2 and unstable (either high or low) Co2 will cause BBA. In a non Co2 injected tank , water changes will provide the unstable Co2 levels.

Never known P to have any role in the appearance of BBA.

KH, lots of mulm will have a bigger role. BBA is very good at grabbing the small amount of carbon it needs from carbonate and organic matter.

Algae seems to be lousy at using inorganic sources of nutrients such as that in the KNO3 and KH2PO4 we use.


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luvmykrib
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EditedEdited by luvmykrib
Taken from a page on Chuck Gadd's site, courtesy of the link Ingo posted.

Red algae: Also called Black Beard Algae (bba), or Black Brush Algae. Short hairs (1/4" long), closely packed together. Appears dark green, black, or dark red. Grows on plant leaves, and sometimes on decorations/substrate. Often grows all around the edges of plant leaves.
BBA thrives in situations of high phosphates. Phosphates come from fish waste, excess food, and occasionally will be present in the water supply. The best way to eliminate BBA is to let the plants out-compete the algae for the nutrients.



In heavily planted tanks, BBA will often show up when the plants have used up all the nitrates. This causes plant growth to slow or stop, which leaves the excess phosphates available to the algae. By supplying extra Nitrate to a planted tank, we allow plant growth to continue until all phosphate is consumed. Then plant AND algae growth will slow/stop. As long as a usable (5-10ppm) level of Nitrate is maintained, the the plants will continue to use up the available phosphate, effectively controls BBA and other phosphorus-dependant algaes. See the article "Adding Nitrate to a Planted Tank" for detailed instructions on how to increase your Nitrate levels.


Thus excess of P will cause BBA, when there is not enough nitrate. I added both nitrate and phosphate together and now have BBA in my 10g tank. This tank has no CO2, has 1.5 wpg, and is pretty fully stocked. There was no BBA before the addition of the NPK. My 25 on the other hand has .5ppm of P, better light, 2.5 wpg, CO2 at a steady level and no BBA.
But really, my idea was more that Ingo seems to get flowers more often than anyone else and it could be the P that is making it happen. He must have a good balance of nutrients including P to make the plants bloom the way they do. Have to admit I'm jealous and am starting to beg my anubiuas to put out even a little flower!

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Post InfoPosted 06-Mar-2006 04:49Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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speaking of flowering plants. I have had two crypts flower at work. All I give them is some excel every other day.


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luvmykrib
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I knew someone else had them flower, couldn't remember who. What's the PO4 level in your tanks that have had flowers? Any idea? It's just a theory based on what I have learned from gardening, I thought I would put it out there and see if anyone could absolutely rule it out. Finding the right balance and maintaining it would be a trick, although I don't worry overmuch about my land plants, they flower for the most part, but lawn grass can be brought into bloom by adding fertilizer with more P in it, fall fertilizer generally has more k and spring fertilizer has the most N.

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I have no idea how much P the tanks at work have in them. I only way they are getting it is from fish food because I don't thing the kool steril system lets that through but i could be wrong.

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Post InfoPosted 06-Mar-2006 05:39Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
luvmykrib
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Fish food, fish poop, are just 2 ways of P getting in, water changes if it's in the water supply is another way. Generally store tanks are overstocked and over filtered to compensate, but they must still get some P build-up, I don't think UV gets rid of it, but I could be wrong on that. My water supply from the city goes through UV and it still gets to me with a hardness of 300, and who knows what else.

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UV generally removes only organic contaminants such as bacterium. Hardness salts should remain unaffected.
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luvmykrib
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Does it also remove phosphates?


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Cup_of_Lifenoodles
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Not that I'm aware of.
Post InfoPosted 06-Mar-2006 07:38Profile AIM MSN PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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EditedEdited by bensaf
Thus excess of P will cause BBA, when there is not enough nitrate.


Next time you read the article, check when it was written

It's old stuff. A lot has changed, our knowledge has increased since then, mainly due to the testing of some the more experienced guys.

These kind of aruments were the kind of thing that started the "excess nutrients myths". Lot of people concluded P caused algae therefore P is bad.

In a case as described above the stalling of plant growth due to the lack of nitrates will cause the algae - nothing to with P. The algae would have come whether the P was 5 or 0.5ppm.

To stop BBA in a non Co2 tank don't do water changes or use Excel.

Or if you don't believe that try adding N, NOT elimating P,and see if that helps !Bet it won't. In which case that theory is down the drain. You can test these thu=ings yourself if you're willing to play with a tank.



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Post InfoPosted 06-Mar-2006 17:01Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Hi,
My only comment is to mention that a UV system will not
remove anything. It will kill anything alive that passes
through it. Parasites, live algae spores, etc. It is a
sterilizer, not a filter.

Frank


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Post InfoPosted 06-Mar-2006 21:56Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
luvmykrib
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Little_Fish?

Where are you?

Hope you're well!

You're falling down on your 10 posts/day!

Please come back!

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Post InfoPosted 09-Mar-2006 22:56Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
FRANK
 
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Hi,
Didn't he say something about hurting his back shoveling
snow?
I too hope he is doing ok.
Frank


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Post InfoPosted 10-Mar-2006 02:34Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Yeah he did a while back. No pun intended.

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EditedEdited by mattyboombatty
Nah, he probably pulled his back messing around with the driftwood and rocks in his tank.

Geezer.



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Thanks Matty

Well, I am back now.

I couldn't stand the look of my algea anymore and treated myself (and the family) to another view.

I have to read all new entries in this and the other threads before I can make any fish related entries, I only came back early this morning and haven't even seen my tanks yet.

In the meantime, enjoy the view

Attached Image:

The Really Big Tank



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Welcome back, Ingo! We've missed you.
Glad you enjoyed yourself while we're messing with our tanks.
Did you see any algae in that big tank?

-P
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Thanks upikabu,

I am sure there is algae in the really big tank, but it fits right in

On the other hand, I am already in PANIC MODE again. I checked on the tank a few minutes ago and found loads of thread algae on many leaves and all over the wood and rocks. All fish seemed to be doing fine and it took my a while to see what was going on:

My CO2 bottle is empty

And that on a Sunday . I have no idea when the bottle ran out. I for sure did not see a low meter reading before I left. Grrrrrrrrr

I will do a large water change later and supplement with Excel until I get a new bottle.

So much about a happy return

Ingo


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Ingo,

First things first, - Welcome back. I think I could speak for everyone that you were missed.

My CO2 bottle is empty

Your not going to believe this, but my bottle ran out yesterday and I never noticed the high pressure gauge was down. I'm running on fumes and still have a small stream coming out of my diffusor.

So since we started our tanks I believe at the same time I guess I could conclude that I've been running more co2 than you based on the 50+ gallon difference in our tanks.



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tetratech,

thanks for the warm welcome , I had FP withdrawal symptoms for the first few days of vacation, but then I got used to the fact that snorkeling and staring at fish from the dark side is fun as well.

Yeah, you sure must have been using more CO2 than I did. I am kind of glad to hear that your bottle is going on empty as well. I was thinking that my regulator might be broken, but if yours is down too then the likelyhood that I just ran on empty "naturally" is pretty high.

Here is a full tank shot. The Star Grass and the some other plants don't seem to mind the thread algae and the lower CO2 values, the Macandra is near death.

Attached Image:

Full Tank, no maintenance yet



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Post InfoPosted 12-Mar-2006 18:31Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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LF,

Tank looks pretty darn nice from that distance. It's hard to believe there are issues. I know it's fun to grow different species, exotics, etc, but it's the tank that's important, so don't drive yourself crazy trying to keep one species. As I've said before you can't be all things in all fish and plants.

BTW - I forget is there any preparation when disconnecting the co2 tank for refill?


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Hi,
Welcome back...

SOME PEOPLE have ALL THE FUN!

Frank


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Post InfoPosted 12-Mar-2006 19:14Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
tetratech,

You are right (as usual, or at least as very often ), I shouldn't drive myself crazy. The problem is that there are threads now all over the place and I only can hope that they will dissapear by themselves once the new CO2 bottle is hooked up and all can balance out again. BTW, I cannot get a bottle until tomorrow evening, the earliest.

About preparations: I don't think so, just close the old bottle and unscrew it, hook up the new one as if it would be the first time setting it up. Meaning, blow out the bottle a little first, then screw the regulator on (with the white tape), make sure all valves are in the right position, and open the main valve. That should be it.

I will go and do the water change now, maybe I try to remove some old leaves. I for sure have to trim the Star Grass and maybe also some Pearl Grass, although I might keep that one long just to have enough settled plant mass in there for the time being.

Ingo

EDIT: Frank - Thanks


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Post InfoPosted 12-Mar-2006 19:21Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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LF,

Any bubbles coming out of diffusor at all. I still have a small stream even though my pressure is gone, I guess that's normal with gas. If you have nothing at all it might have run out before mine or it's not strong enough to make it thru the reactor. Do you have any bubbles in the bubble counter?

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tetratech,

I got nothing, zip, nada

I guess that means that it started to run out as soon as I left a week ago .

I am in the middle of the water change now. I did a major trim of the Star Grass, actually a replant of tops and disposal of the bottoms.

Back to the Python

Ingo


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Thanks for the update. I haven't even started my WC yet.
At least you have excel. I don't have any although I just placed an order from bigals for a 2 liter bottle that should be here by Tuesday. I also ordered some Flourish Iron to see if it brings out the reds even more.

So as far as the co2 canister I guess you close it and take off the regulator.



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upikabu
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Ingo - you left CO2 on while on vacation? You must be braver than I thought, considering the problems Bensaf mentioned before when he left his CO2 on while away. Did you reduce the lighting or duration? How about ferts?

-P
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You must be braver than I thought
Yeah, I am a brave man .

No, I actually have a neighbor who's son watched over my tanks while I was gone. I premixed macros, readied a bottle with micros, pre-dosed food, and gave him exact instructions (written down) on what to do with what tank when. All was thought out, except that I may run out of CO2 . There was nothing the neighbor could have done as he only has experience with low tech tanks and I was not easily reachable anyways. Tough luck I say.

Anyway - Weekly Tank Update - Week 24

As has been mentioned in this and a few previous posts, I have been away for a week and ran out of CO2. This was all the invitation the algae needed to really settle in nicely, I hope it will go away after all parameters are back in sink again. If I would have to remove all infected leaves then the tank would be pretty empty now. All fish have survived my absence, at least the ones I can count (Otos, Rainbows, and Gouramies).

During the maintenance I replanted the Star Grass, it got way too big (see picture a few posts up) and I replanted the tops only. Otherwise I didn't do any trimming, even if the Pearl Grass is getting too big as well. I don't want to have too many plants not being settled at the same time.

K, here is the full tank after it was replanted in the current format, on week 19:

Attached Image:

Initial Current Setup Week 19



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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 00:08Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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And here is the tank after today's water change and maintenance. I supplemented with Excel to have at least some carbon in the tank until I can get a new bottle (hopefully tomorrow evening, if time permits).

Note the Macandra to the right of the wood group. It is really pale (unlike the Alternanthera) and any new growth that started in the last two weeks (sideshoots on main stems) is withering away as well.

Attached Image:

Tank Today - Week 24



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Thread Anyone?

Here is a close-up of some Cyperus Helferi leaves covered in thread algae. This is pretty much like the whole group looks like and various of the other plants as well.

Darn

Attached Image:

Cyperus Helferi Thread Algae



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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 00:13Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Or how about a nice rock covered in threads?

Also, note the beautiful BBA on the Sag at the left side. BBA is seen in various parts of the tank, but mostly on leaves that are on their way out, like on Sags and Crypt Retrospiralis. These two plant types have not taken the replanting 5 weeks ago too well. Some seem to recover, others just hang in, while the rest is withering away.

Attached Image:

Algae Rock and Narrow Leaf Sag with BBA



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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 00:16Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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LF, sorry to see all the problems. Where do you go from here? I know you had algae problems before you went away, but do you think the lack of co2 made it worse in that period of time?

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Where do you go from here?


No idea

Well, I first will try to see if cranking up the CO2 (once I have it) will help. If not then I guess I will have to order quite a few new plants. And I guess that would mean that I have to start over yet again, and I am really not into that at all.

I think that the existing algae really profited from the CO2 running out, with as you say "all that light" and the nutrients being available. Under these conditions I can imagine that it had a feast and that a few days were enough to create the current situation. Let's see what the Grand Master has to say about this .

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 00:58Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by tetratech
The interesting thing is that we both dispensed about the same amount of co2 over the same period of time and your tank is considerably bigger than mine. Now the only algae I really have is some BBA, which supposely is known to happen in low co2 situations. If that is true, then I must turn mine up even higher and you my friend must get a second cansister.

The fish never gasped

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upikabu
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BBA, which supposely is known to happen in low co2 situations

I'm starting to question the validity of this hypothesis in CO2-injected tank. In my DIY CO2 injected tank, the only spot where I've seen BBA growing is on an area of the driftwood that's directly in the path of the CO2 bubbles being spit out of the diffuser. Therefore this spot should have the highest CO2 level in the entire tank. I'm starting to think that the reason for this BBA growing there is not necessarily the lack of CO2, but more the unevenness/fluctuation of the CO2 level in the area (as you know, in DIY CO2 the output of CO2 is not constant). If that's true, then in a pressurized CO2 injected tank I would expect BBA only in spots where the level of CO2 varies greatly (e.g. where water flow is restricted).

Too bad I can't test this as I don't have a CO2 tank.

-P
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upikabu,
I could tell you in my tank 99.9% of the bba is on nongrowing surfaces, but it doesn't seem to matter where these are located in terms of flow and co2 dispersion. Some of the surfaces are right in the flow of the co2 others are at the far end of the tank.

I have followed several threads about bba where aquarists complained that the bba was worse where they had something (dw, rock) directly in the flow of the co2.


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Tetra - that's interesting. Perhaps the junk/dirt that gets collected on these non-growing surfaces plus CO2 make perfect breeding ground for these protists. Well at least they're easier to remove when on driftwood/rock. Gave my fingernail a workout yesterday removing those b*****ds - it was disgusting.

-P
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EditedEdited by bensaf
Well my main worry was that with algae already there that if the Co2 was off for a week it would flourish. I didn't know you're arrangement for while you were away and was assuming you'd switch the gas off.

As to the tank emptying - maybe a bit of oversight on your part ? When full the high pressure gauge will read about 900-1000psi. When the liquid Co2 in the tank is depleted this will start to drop and you are just left with gas in the tank. BUT you should get a week to two weeks between this and the tank totally emptying. I would have to assume that the pressure was already dropping before you went away but you hadn't noticed. I doubt there was a ytank dump when the pressure dropped as all the fish would be dead.

Anyhows, what to do now. You get the gas up and running and things back in line, while that should stop further algae growth it won't do much for the algae that's already there.

It will have to be removed. If it's too much to trim all it off. Then possibly a bleach dip on those plants you want to save. Not sure if Excel works on hair/thread algaes ? Not sure if a 3-day blackout would do it either. Maybe somebody will have some experience.

As for the Macrandra, well lets have a little pop quiz to see who has being paying attention in class

You've got a Reineckii that was wimpy and weak for a long time and is now big and bold. Macrandra has gone from a deep red to a very pale color.
What does that tell us ?

Use of test kits is not allowed

Simple observation only.

As for the BBA. Upi is close. It's not low Co2 per se. In a non injected tank not doing water changes is a way to control BBA by keeping the Co2 constantly low. Unstable Co2 is the main cause. Co2 rates going up and down (below the 30ppm level) will do it. Mulm is also a big factor in BBA as they are good at snatching carbonate from rotting matter. So the mulm and dirt trpped under and around wood and rocks may be a factor.


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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 04:17Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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Red plant turning pale, Either lack of iron or too much Nitrate!

Did I get it right??

LF! Your alive and you went and had fun in the big tank! Nice picture BTW. How's the back? That thread algea is everywhere isn't it? I think I would freak if that happend to my tank. I think I had that in my tank for a little bit early on. I gave it about... well lets say probably way way too much excel and it turned red and went away. (is it posible to over dose excel?)

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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 05:29Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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BBA. the demonic hellgae.

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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 05:53Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Red plant turning pale, Either lack of iron or too much Nitrate!

Did I get it right??


You're close. But you are only looking at half the equation. The paleness of the Macrandra. How does that tie in with the improvement of the Reineckii ? Narrow it down.


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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 06:11Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Ok I just did a little cheating and googled it.

I am going to add in lack of Micros and maybe not enough light (being shaded?)

http://www.tropica.dk/productcard_1.asp?id=032

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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 06:40Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Nah, you're getting further away now.

I'll wait for a few of the others to chime in before I give (what I feel to be) the answer.

There's an important lesson to be learned here. I'm always babbling about watching the plants, not the test kits.

That pic with the Reincekii and Macrandra tells me a lot about what's been going on the tank. It also, I'm pretty sure, giving a huge clue as to why the algae re-appeared.

But I'd prefer you guys to figure it out for yourself.




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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 08:45Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by upikabu
Oh Mr. B, you're such a tease!

My guess (never having kept either plant) would be too high nitrate (too many espei ) coupled with low PO4 (hence the paleness). I heard high nitrate could stunt macaranda. Reineckii must like the high nitrate and can tolerate lower levels of PO4. But low PO4 = thread algae or high NO3 = thread algae? My guess would be the latter or combination of both.

-P
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bensaf
 
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Ok no more teasing then !

I don't like the phrase "too much nitrate" or "too high nitrate", btw. It's relative.

The changes in the plants tell me that previously the N was too lean and the phosphate high (just high NOT too high). This may have been well and good for the Rotala but not so good for the others, as signified by the poorly Reineckii. Increasing nitrate suited the Reineckii and caused the Macrandra to lose color. It may be a little too rich for the Rotala if growth is now stunted or that could just be the effect of the lack of Co2.

Does this mean the N is now "too high" , well not IMO. The algae is testament to that. Remember the algae started before the Co2 ran out, that's just complicated matters. MAcrandra is picky. It's a great indicator for an aquarium but can be a PITA to keep happy. There's a choice to be made, keep conditions suitable for the Rotala and risk problems with everything else or run rich and risk the Rotala being unhappy? I know what I'd choose.

Pages back I said that staghorn was an indicator of low macros. The changes in these plants tell me that N was running too low for a long time. To me that indicates why the staghorn re-appeared.

So in summary N was too low and P was not a factor.

If the reineckii was stunting for lack of N then I'd be sure while the other plants weren't showing syptoms as clear cut they probably weren't growing 100% - they were being limited. Now that's a gap that will let algae in.

Remember it's not fast growth it's non-limiting growth.

That's what one pic and the difference in 2 plants tell me about what's going on.

Watch the plants, folks, trust them. Sod the test kits. Listen to what the plants are tellin' ye, put your pre-conceptions and assumptions aside. They'll tell the whole story.

And to quote one of my boys -don't micro manage your macros !!!!


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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 15:48Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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And to quote one of my boys -don't micro manage your macros !!!!

Oh, go on, your making be blush.

One thing I don't see mentioned alot (unless I've missed it) is people increasing their ferts as the plant mass in their tanks mature. Just because you were dosing 1/2 tsp no3 when 2 months ago does't mean it's enough now with the density of plant mass increasing.

Believe me all is not bliss in my tank. I do have bba and I noticed my Rotala Wallichii is looking kinda pale and thin.

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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 18:15Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Welcome back LF! Could you post your really big tank pic in my I'm cold thread in the recovery room? We've had a ton of snow over the past few days, it's nice to see somewhere warmer for a change. It must have been nice to get away, but not nice to come back to that! My filter went off when I went away last year and that wasn't a good thing to come home to, then at Christmas I had everything ready in case it happened again and one of the barbs died and was floating when I got home, I have to show her where the nets are so she can take out dead fish! Which brings us to now, the tank is still looking great from a distance, all the fish were looking active as well, they seemed to weather your absence alright. I'm sure once you get the ferts and CO2 levels back to where they should be then everything will settle down again. I'm trying to figure out how to get rid of the stuff growing in my tanks, the only conclusion is more plants, more ferts and better light (for the 10) and more plants and more ferts for the 25. I've got BBA, staghorn, thread, BGA you name it it has reared it's ugly head in both tanks. From what bensaf has said I think my N and P are too low, my CO2 is probably too low, but out of my control, the only thing I have in good amounts in the tanks are micros, and light on the 25 is good, could be why the algae in that tank is there, the plants aren't using the light available. So UI'm asking here cause he won't come to my thread and share his sage advice, probably tired of my denseness.

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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 19:05Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Man,

Coming back from vacation is no fun. All the work that piled up at my desk is still there .

As such I have only a few moments here and there to look into FP and maybe write an entry or two.

Bensaf - That's what I was going to answer for your pop quiz . Seriously, I figured it cannot be a lack of Iron as the Alternanthera would not be so read either. But, I have to say that the whole N / P think is still a little murky to me, although I understand what you are saying.

The Rotala started to do bad as soon as the last major replant happened. It never settled in anymore. It had been through many different tank params in the past as it was added to the tank at the get-go, so it successfully survived much greater imbalances (that for sure were there).

The Alternanthera has been in the tank just as long and never showed a sign of significant growth until the last major change. So it too has been through all kinds of mis-fertilization attempts.

tetratech - Although I hear your message about "increased mass requires increased ferts" as well, I have to say that my plant mass decreased during my last major change by about 50%

luvmykrib - I promise I will take a look at your log when I have a little more time . What did you do to the guys that you assume they don't want to create entries in there ?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 21:03Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by tetratech
tetratech - Although I hear your message about "increased mass requires increased ferts" as well, I have to say that my plant mass decreased during my last major change by about 50%

Well I knew you were gonna say that, but weren't you experiencing thread and other algae problems prior to your extreme makeover. When your plant mass was at it's heaviest. Ingo not picking on you just creating discussions in general for myself to ponder as well.

I know you reduced alot of plant mass when you added the dw, but I'm not 100% sure that's the same as starting a tank with immature cuttings that have to be acclimated before they start taking up nutrients. Also does the biofilter simply take in nh3, if not then the bioflter grows bolder and hungrier as well as a sucker of nutrients. There are also cases I believe where the biofilter uses nitrate if the o2 content is low. Let's asume bensaf's right and the no3 ran low. It might have happened when the plant mass was at it's greatest (doesn't that start the process of algae coming in.) Things aren't instanteous or black and white.

Believe me the algae (algae genes, spores) are in the tank. They are knocking on the door constantly we just have to get damn good at never letting them in.

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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 21:56Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Ingo not picking on you


I know that tetratech, didn't mean to create the impression that I feel picked on, as I am not .

Well, one thing is for sure. I know now why you called me brave when I decided to pull through with the major overhaul, you must have foreseen the things that happened afterwards .

Whatever it is/was that caused this mess, let's hope we get it under control. I will get a new bottle of CO2 tonight and crank it up like a madman .

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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 22:42Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
I know that tetratech, didn't mean to create the impression that I feel picked on, as I am not

You didn't. I just wanted to make sure you weren't thinking that and I do understand the second language think so don't worry in the future as well.


Whatever it is/was that caused this mess, let's hope we get it under control. I will get a new bottle of CO2 tonight and crank it up like a madman


Almost makes you want to setup an experiment tank and try stuff. Could be in my future, but haven't been able to even get the cichlid thing going yet.

I might even bump my co2 up slightly. Think about it, your tank is about 40% bigger than mine we both used approx. the same amount of c02. Unfortunately it's not a clean comparsion because of all the other variables, but you have about 40% more water to diffuse the co2 into, you also have more light and more mass and you were dosing more ferts, so it stands to reason the plants need more co2 then mine. My fish were never gasping, but I do have BBA. So you might have been really under on the co2 unless your reactor was so much more efficient.

EDIT: My unprofessional advice, when you refill the cansister and start these increased co2 dosing, start off slowly and work your way up over a few days. "Small moves, Ellie, small moves"



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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 22:52Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Small moves, Ellie, small moves


CONTACT!

One of the most disappointing movie scenes ever, when she finally sees the alien. Why couldn't she fight it or something, or perhaps make the alien talk in backwards english like Yoda. Ah, I'm just rambling - I was a teenager when that came out, my list of priorities of things I wanted to see in movies was much different back then.

Aaaaanyway, as for LFs reactor - when i had that set-up I remember it being much less efficient than the glass diffusor. IME anyway. So it's possible LF, your CO2 may still be low.


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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 23:04Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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CONTACT!

Your good.
Loved the movie, but I could see why that would disappoint a teenager. Think about most space movies when they did show the alien, they probably would have been better off not showing them (Independence Day, Abyss, ET )



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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 23:21Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Loved the movie, but I could see why that would disappoint a teenager. Think about most space movies when they did show the alien, they probably would have been better off not showing them (Independence Day, Abyss, ET )


I loved it too, it's a Carl Sagan novel afterall, it's hard not to love his stuff if you look at it the right way.

You're right about being better off not showing the aliens in those movies. They did a good job for most of Abyss, then blew it at the end. And Independence day, don't get me started. I have a hard enough time believing Will Smith could punch out my sister, let alone a PO'd alien covered in armour. But alas, this is probably a topic for a different thread


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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 23:34Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by tetratech


But alas, this is probably a topic for a different thread

Not so fast nowher. I know you don't want to highjack LF's thread about fictional extraterrestrials, but I'm going to bridge our conversation about the algae/bacteria in our tanks and what we are up against. You don't think it's possible do you?

I don't know if you knew this but Carl Sagan once speculated that "microorganisims could be seeded in the clouds above Venus and would eventually make the planet habitable for higher forms of life by extracting water and carbon dioxide, breaking them down through photosynthesis and discharging oxygen into the atmosphere" This bacteria he spoke of
B-G-A

So algae/BGA is our friend

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Post InfoPosted 14-Mar-2006 00:30Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Only if we over populate the Earth and screw it up so bad we can't live here any more... stupid people here on Earth! Oh and it only takes about a year to get to Jupiter! So cut that way back to Venus.

Nice conection BTW! (did you make that up?)




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Post InfoPosted 14-Mar-2006 04:43Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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What

I have Aliens in my tank ?

I knew it, something this bad cannot be from this planet .

I love Science Fiction movies, but I don't have the brain to remember particular phrases. Best movie of this kind ever (because it was ground breaking): 2001 A Space Odyssey.

With regards to the tank: I hooked up the CO2 last night around 6PM and fired it up. I didn't see tetratech's suggestion about increasing it slowly over a few days until now. I actually think that the ph of the tank will fall slowly anyway as it will take some time to saturate the water. So, last night the CO2 was on for about 3 hours, that should not have made much of an impact except reminded the fish and plants of how it should be. Today I am letting it rumble and have full CO2 flow for the full day.

One observation I made, but I might be wrong with the "cause and reaction" relationship analysis: All my fish are swimming much lower in the tank when there was no CO2 added. Usually, most of my Espei occupy the upper realm of the tank to hang out, but in the last 2 days they all huddled just above most plants.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 14-Mar-2006 11:55Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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One observation I made, but I might be wrong with the "cause and reaction" relationship analysis: All my fish are swimming much lower in the tank when there was no CO2 added. Usually, most of my Espei occupy the upper realm of the tank to hang out, but in the last 2 days they all huddled just above most plants.



I made the exact same observation in my tank a few days ago, actually one page back I posted a pic. The harleys usually stay near the top, but one day they just started hovering right above the tenellus carpet, just staying in one formation.

Perhaps there are little aliens in our Jersey water that are bothing our fish/ plants...



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Post InfoPosted 14-Mar-2006 15:29Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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I have Aliens in my tank

That would be Chao's tank I believe
Speaking of Aliens, did Chaos get obducted by one?



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Post InfoPosted 14-Mar-2006 15:41Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Grrrr,

NowherMan6 - now you gave me another reason to worry, water from the tab.

I think to have observed that my fish came up some more once the CO2 was turned back on. I will make sure to sneak in tonight when I come home and check on them before they see me (as they come out as soon as they see me - for food).

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 14-Mar-2006 17:30Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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With higher co2 content in the water they may stay closer to the surface to pop up for a gulp of fresh air once in a while ?


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 15-Mar-2006 05:46Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Bensaf,

That was my thought as well. And sure enough, last night when I came home and sneaked downstairs I saw then half way up between the plants and the surface.

I checked on the CO2 and it was going at about 4bps. Unintentionally I followed tetratech's advice of slowly increasing the CO2 as 4bps are not a super sized load. I later crancked it up some more to "slow stream".

I have a question about "cleaning" plants in a Bleach Solution. I guess I should not remove all plant that I would like to save at once and rather stretch the cleaning process out to a few weeks. Some of my plants also don't like to be uprooted, like the Helferi and the crypts. What should I do with these? The bleach solution is 1 part bleach and 19 parts water, right?

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Post InfoPosted 15-Mar-2006 12:27Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Well I can't think of a reason not to do them all at once. But I'd do it on water change day so you can clean up the mess from uprooting.

As for the Helferi it depends how bad the algae is. What would cause most long term harm to the plant - being covered in algae or being uprooted. As the guy on the ground you'll have to make that call.

I wouldn't do the crypts though - too melty. As new leaves grow in trim off the damaged ones.


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Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 15-Mar-2006 16:09Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks Bensaf,

I will inform the groud troops that they are in charge of their actions


Before I forget,

Today is actually a special day when it comes to my involvement in this hobby.

It is exactly one year ago that I set up my very first tank, the 29G. It was quite an exciting first year that so far has produced 3 tanks, including this monster here . Plus many new friends here at FP, thanks at this point to all the people who gave their input in one way or another.

So when compared to a marriage, I am no longer a newly-wed and will from now on be able to be held responsible for my actions .

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 15-Mar-2006 17:23Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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It is exactly one year ago that I set up my very first tank, the 29G

Does this mean the honeymoon is over and I could take off the gloves and really tell you what I think.

No, but really once you get past the 1st year and have had success like you have had I think your in it for life.

so have a cold dark one and enjoy

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Post InfoPosted 15-Mar-2006 17:42Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Congrates LF! You have done really well for yourself in a year.

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Post InfoPosted 15-Mar-2006 23:43Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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So that would explain why the romance is dead and why he doesn't listen anymore and takes me for granted

Well if you have to ask what the problem is there's no point me telling you.

BTW, do you know that doctors have discovered a new contraceptive ? Yeah, it's called wedding cake


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Post InfoPosted 16-Mar-2006 03:34Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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So that would explain why the romance is dead and why he doesn't listen anymore and takes me for granted

Yep, I think he's rebelling alittle, trying to make his own tracks through the planted tank jungle.

Marriage, contraceptive


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Post InfoPosted 16-Mar-2006 03:47Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Me - rebelling - nah

Now move over and listen to the ideas of the new tank-keeper generation

Ups, I guess I have nothing to say

In a more tank related issue I have news though:

I arranged with my LFS to give them around 30 Espei tonight for store credit. I don't get much, but it is a start and marks the first time that any of my efforts return some of the investment.

I intend to bag them in 2 bags, 15 each, and then to put the bags in a cooler to bring them there (10min drive). I guess that should be fine, right? Do you have a better idea?

So, while arranging that deal, I perused the store to see what kind of a treat I could get myself for the 1 year anniversary. And what can I say - I found a very nice treat (in my opinion). I put a hold on a pair of Apistogramma viejita II that the store received just 2 days ago. A treat it is, as they cost $80 as this species supposedly is stillrather rare in the trade. I did not see the couple hang out together in the tank, both were going their own ways, but they didn't show any aggression towards each other when their ways crossed either. I assume that the term "pair" in this case means a male and a female rather than a formed pair.

What do you think?

Ingo


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Thats a sweet fish! I can't imagin spending that much cash on a couple of fish but you are going to be getting some cash or SC so that will help matters. I think you are right about them being just a M+F not an actual pair. But who knows they may not like their environment right now but when you get them home to the super cool tank they might hook up.

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Post InfoPosted 16-Mar-2006 14:14Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Well, congrats on the esepi sale. Could be the start of something. Little_fish's little fish farm. Always nice to get something back and tell the wife

As for the Apistos:

Obviously very nice looking fish. Is that the actual fish your getting or is that a pic from somewhere else?

I would definitely let them stay in the store for a while if possible before moving, since you said they've only have them a few days.

When it comes to feeding time you might have to be more hands on. When I feed my bolivians I have to push away the schooling fish since they eat all the food before it reaches the lower levels where the rams are. I actually put some larger size food in a net and swish it to the bottom, same when I'm feeding worms, etc.




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Hi Ingo

It is exactly one year ago that I set up my very first tank
Congratulations. Now, I had you figured as someone who has been at this for years. You've certainly learned a lot in a short time, 'cause you're certainly full of good advice.

I love your new fish. Gee that's pricey though, it would be AU$108.65. Is that a picture of your actual fish in the store, or is it one from a profile. Just wondering, 'cause my bolivian rams do not look anywhere near as colourful as the picture in the profile found here. Maybe one day, in the distance future, when I've recovered from the cost of kids, tanks (C02 soon I hope), maybe if I save all my dollars up, I can get 2 of them. Hate to order them in to find they don't look like your pic - so that's why I ask.

Again, congratulations on 1 year of fish keeping. Lucky for all the newbies here that you picked this hobby.

Cheers
TW
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LITTLE_FISH
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Oh thanks everybody, in particular Robyn - that is a very nice compliment.

No, sadly the fish pictured is not the real one I am getting, I found the image when googeling the web. Put basically it looks like it.

Leaving the fish in the store may be a good idea tetratech, but I don't think it is really possible - for a few reasons:

- I am rather sure the store is not too wild about holding fish for someone as they like to refill that spot with fish that they can sell
- The tankmates seemed to be too pushy for the little girl and there is not much hiding space (one cave like structure)
- last but not least, some salesguy who might not be in the know and potentially doesn't care to read the label on the tank may sell them

So, they will come home to Daddy tonight (if not sold/dead/ill).

Good point about the food as well tetratech, just later this morning it dawned on me that I didn't know how and what to feed these guys. After doing some research it seems that mostly some live food is suggested, although one book mentioned that they also would be just fine with "quality" flake food. Tell me more about the worms you feed - do you raise them, buy them, defrost them, or what?

Thanks in advance,

Ingo


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NowherMan6
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LF congrats on the one year anniversary We all have you to blame for this Log madness (and Dr Bonke too)

Very nice apistos indeed. And that was a nice bit of luck with finding a rare kind. I would reccomend seeing if they'll breed, you have a possible goldmine on your hands I doubt an LFS would pass up an opportunity to sell fish that they could make a huge profit on

As for feeding, when I feed brine shrimp/ bloodworms they never make it to the bottom for my loaches. What I do is add some tank water to the brine shrimp/ worms, then suck that up in a turkey baster and let it drip out near the bottom. This way the bottom fish get first shot at it, and you can place it directly and not haphazzardly like I imagine would happen with a net. This is useful if the fish are shy at first and you need to spot feed them in their territory or in a cave section


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Ingo,

That's one gorgeous Apisto, and congrats on the 1 year point. I'm almost ready to set up the planted tank that we've discussed briefly, I can only hope to have even a small amount of the success that you have had.

Jim



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Post InfoPosted 16-Mar-2006 16:29Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Jim,

I am sure that you will be at least as successful as I have been as you researched the topic at least as much as I did.

Actually, I hope you are better than me as I am still trying to figure out quite a few things here

Ingo


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LITTLE_FISH
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
NowherMan6,

Didn't see your entry, I guess I am getting old .

Question: do you feed live food or defrosted/freeze dried?

If the answer is live food then I would appreciate a short introduction. But I am afraid it includes the word refridgerator and I can already see someone kicking me out of the house.

Thanks,

Ingo


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NowherMan6
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If the answer is live food then I would appreciate a short introduction. But I am afraid it includes the word refridgerator and I can already see someone kicking me out of the house.


Pack your bags.

I feed them frozen, and I keep the food discreetly hidden in the freezer. But I've been wanting to try out the Omega One freeze dried line. Supposed to be pretty good. Their flake food is also supposed to be excellent, though my harlies aren't crazy about it. High quality.

Cultivating live food shouldn't be too hard, especially brine shrimp. A one gallon tank should do, I'm sure you can find instructions online.

If it's a wild caught pair you may need to go the extra mile in getting them to feed, they may not be as voratious as the espei


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Post InfoPosted 16-Mar-2006 17:01Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Thanks NowherMan6,

I will ask tonight if it is wild caught. Last thing I want is that the fishies starve to death. I have various freeze dried foods, from Blood Worms (which I find are rather big) over Daphnia (rather small) to San Francisco Bay Brand Brine Shrimp (is floating) and Hikari Tubifex Worms (floating).

Let's hope they like at least one of them.

Ingo


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When you go to the LFS find out what they have been feeding them. Always good info to know..

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Post InfoPosted 16-Mar-2006 18:19Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
Tell me more about the worms you feed - do you raise them, buy them, defrost them, or what?

I get the frozen cubes (usually san fran brand) I defrost them in a cup with tank water for 10 minutes then I dump out the cup over a net in the sink. I take some more tank water and dump it over the net again to get rid of the residue/bloodly liquid etc. so it doesn't go in the tank. Then I feed some of the school right away and then I go down to the bottom with the remaining worms and realize alittle where the rams hang. At this point the rams are really tame so they will go right into the net if I let them.

Sounds like the apistos are a done deal so good luck with them. I have a store way out east on the Island that stocks alot of them. I'll have to take a trip out there maybe this weekend and see what the deal is.

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LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks for the detailed information, tetratech

Sounds like it would be a bit messy to feed frozen food. I sure hope that they like freeze dried as well.

Thanks again,

Ingo


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It's really not that bad. Doesn't freeze-dried float?
That would be harder for the apistos to get to since they stay on the bottom.

BTW - Yes, I do keep the worms in the frig. Actually one type of SF Brand is called "Fish Gum Drops". Nice way to say "Frozen Bugs"


EDIT: Makes a good case for getting a frig in the garage. Load it up with gum drops and black & tans.


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Post InfoPosted 16-Mar-2006 20:47Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Doesn't freeze-dried float?


Yes, it does

I was hoping that soaking it for a while will make it sink, but now I remember that uneaten food tends to stay on top as well. Grrrrr

We don't have electricity in the Garage, maybe I could run a fridge on gasoline .

Ingo


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Wingsdlc
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well with the snow storm on its way you shouldn't have to worry about keeping them cold.

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Post InfoPosted 16-Mar-2006 22:51Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
luvmykrib
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I recently bought frozen MYSIS shrimp, they come in little cubes and you do the same thing as Tetra with them, I never thought to strain mine though, my guys love the 'gravy' the bloodworms make. No more bloodworms for mine though until I find some with a guarantee that there are no parasites. Freeze dried tubifex are just nasty and messy IMHO, they make such a mess in the tank and the fish get all bloated up after eating them, I thought my barbs would burst after just a few bites!

Do the rams always stay on the bottom? My krib is seen all over the tank and never misses coming to the top for feeding time.

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Post InfoPosted 16-Mar-2006 23:00Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Hey Ingo,

Looked up FP on Apistogramma viejita II. There's only one photo & it might the Apistogramma viejita, which text says is less colourful than Apistogramma viejita II. When you get yours, you should take a pic & put it in the profile here in FP.

I'm going to try the various feeding ideas for my rams, as I have trouble getting food to them & I didn't think of those ideas. Brilliant. The only thing I can get to them is algae wafers, as the other greedy fish don't let anything drop to the bottom.

Cheers
TW
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EditedEdited by cynical
I have both rams and apistos and i feed freeze dried tubifex (aswell as frozen bloodworm and sinking pellets), they come in small cubes and what you do is push them hard against the glass and they stick there, so you can reach your arm in and put it down the bottum for your rams/apistos?

Cynical
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luvmykrib
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I have tried that with the tubifex cubes and they don't stay stuck, it may be different with less voracious fish than my barbs and the krib, but I don't know, they barely touch it and it comes loose!

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LITTLE_FISH
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I will catch up with the entries later, for now I have to go and add water to the bags

But here they are:

Attached Image:

Apistogramma viejita II Female



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LITTLE_FISH
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And here is the boss, both are still bagged as you can see:

Attached Image:

Apistogramma viejita II Male



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LITTLE_FISH
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OK,

I have a few minutes between water additions now, so first of all for all the input and suggestions on feeding these little charms

I asked in the store how they feed their fish and they told me that during the week it is flakes and on Fridays it is frozen food. But he also showed me that the fish eat freeze dried food, he added some krill to the tank, into the current that pushes the water down from the HOB, and the Apistos ate their share. Nice

Now, a request to all of you: keep your fingers crossed for me that they are doing fine as the last time I got South American Cichlids they both died, it was a pair of German Rams (last fall).

Thanks again, I am sure quite a few more pictures will follow, but not today as it will be lights out soon for this tank.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 17-Mar-2006 03:25Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Simply beautiful fish and looks like a pair too


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Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 17-Mar-2006 03:30Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Gorgeous, LF. Look forward to seeing them get lost in your jungle


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Post InfoPosted 17-Mar-2006 03:57Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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BTW, a happy ST. Paddy's day to one and all

Won't be posting much today got an appointment with "a blonde in a black skirt" tetra should know what that is. He's agot a few blondes in black skirts in his fridge !


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
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NowherMan6
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Today? Oh yeah, where you are today is tomorrow.

Happy St. Paddy's Bensaf and others... and to LF's new apistos too.


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Post InfoPosted 17-Mar-2006 04:23Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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Sweet fish. I am sure that he will color up when he is not freaking out from trasport. Best wishes!

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Post InfoPosted 17-Mar-2006 07:34Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks to you all

What can I say, I already start to worry (what else is new). Pretty much as soon as I released them into the 20G I noticed that the resident Platies, even the younger ones, swim up to the new fish, from the side, and try to bite their pectoral fins, grrrrr. I hope they will get used to each other quickly before any major damage is done. I managed to take a few shots last night after release.

Here is the female. As you may see, her caudal fin is not in the best shape. Usually I wait these things out as eventually the fin will grow back, but usually my fish are also rather cheap. Anything I should do?

Attached Image:

Female



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LITTLE_FISH
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Here is a picture of the male, he pretty much colored up a little as soon as he was added to the tank.

Attached Image:

Male



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LITTLE_FISH
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Last but not least, here is a shot of the pair.

I hope they will take good care of each other.

Ingo

Ah, and yeah - happy St. Patricks Day from me too, to all the Irish folks out there

Attached Image:

Pair



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Post InfoPosted 17-Mar-2006 12:06Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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I like all the pics. Favourite is the one of the pair. He looks like he's puckering up for a kiss. Good luck with them, Ingo.

Cheers
TW
Post InfoPosted 17-Mar-2006 12:09Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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LF,

If you think it's just wear and tear on her tail fin, perhaps from nipping in the store tank etc., then melafix and/ or pimafix should do the trick. I don't think it would be tail rot yet, but that would warrant another treatment...


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Post InfoPosted 17-Mar-2006 13:33Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
LF,
Great find What's next a pair of zebra plecs!

They are already quite beautiful and they should get even more colorful. I don't know, but somehow I think frozen bloodworms, would help with color more than freeze-dried but I could be wrong.

As I mentioned I am looking for a pair as well, so let the Apisto Wars begin.

You are such an animal!

BTW: Found this on a website

"Three color forms of Apistogramma viejita are known. Color form 1 is from Puerto Gaitan, Colombia, 2 from Rio Muco and Rio Guarrojo, Colombia, and the third from tributaries to the Rio Manacacias between Santa Rita and Bengale, also Colombia. The fish have also been described from Venezuela."




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Post InfoPosted 17-Mar-2006 15:06Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks for the input,

Yeah tetratech, I found that info during the day yesterday as well. I am pretty sure that mine actually are the viejita II as the coloration is pretty much on target. There is supposedly another Apisto that looks very similar, I think the difference are the blue lips (or something).

I will keep an eye on the fins to evaluate rotting or "normal" wear and tear from shipping etc.

Also, I am still concerned about the nipping of the fins from the Platies. If I find any loss of pectoral fin pieces then the Platies will be moved tonight into the 29G. Might be a little tight in there then, but they asked for it

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 17-Mar-2006 15:26Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Oh,

With all this excitement over my new fish I forgot to tell the story of the Espei.

After getting the QT ready with a water change I started to go after the Espei. I readied a larger ziplock bag, removed the three glass lids, filled the bag with 3 cups of tank water, and the hunt was on.

1 hour and 15 min later I caught either 27 or 28 of the juveniles. Most were of younger age, not tiny though, as the older ones are already too fast and smart to be caught be the old guy. I then realized that the ziplock bag is not easily put down as the bottom corners could fold up and kill any fish that may be stuck in it. With the help of the wife I poured them into an old LFS bag that I wisely saved (or forgot to throw out ).

Then I packed the whole bag in 3 towels and in a cooler box, just to be on the save side. 10 min later I was in the store and the sales person in charge seemed to be rather satisfied with my fishies. Actually, I expected this as the shipments from Asia usually produce skinny, small, and pale Espei. He filled my fishies in a clean bucket and it was time to say good-by to them .

So - to anyone who reads this entry and plans to purchase my Espei, take good care of them, will ya?

I can tell already that the big tank looks emptier with about 30% of the fish population gone.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 17-Mar-2006 18:17Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
SheKoi
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EditedEdited by shekoi
LF what did you get for your fish? if anything.

i know how hard it is to remove fish, that you have feed and grown, in your case bred.

i decided to exchange my RTS at the weekend, he had become far to aggressive, chasing every fish in the tank apart from the angel, i got 6 bags of live food in exchange!

How are your rainbows doing? any sign of breeding yet?

i'm hoping to get a couple male rainbows this weekend!

Congrats on the dwarfs, they look great, i got a male cockatoo, last weekend, still trying to find female. is it your intendtion to add them into the 125G, might be hard to see them once they are in.

Karl.

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Karl,

The deal was basically $1 per Espei (they sell them for $4) of store credit, but because I told them there are either 27 or 28 (and counting them is hard) and because I believe they were rather happy with the condition of the fish, I received $30.

This credit, and quite some additional cash, was used up just a few minutes later alread when I got the Apistos.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 17-Mar-2006 18:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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some reason I think the population will come back. Probably not as fast being you have the rainbows in there now but it will come back.

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Post InfoPosted 17-Mar-2006 18:37Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Yeah Wings, there is a good chance that this will happen. As I still see the occasional very young fish peeking out from the denser growth areas.

Karl - forgot to answer your question about the Rainbows. The are doing just fine (all 6), but I don't see any mating going on. If I am not mistaken then they are egg scatterers and their offspring need quite some time to develop into larger fish (that are not easily eaten anymore). If they had babies then they all became food.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 17-Mar-2006 18:41Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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So let me get this straight:

- Two espei $8
- Two Double Red Apisto Agassizi $20
- Bensaf saying your Apisto Viejita are simply beautiful on St. Patrick's Day - Priceless!



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That is so true tetratech

I wish he would say similar things about my planting

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"a blonde in a black skirt"

Oh yeah

Don't expect much today. I expect him to resurface in about a week.

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Quick update on the Apisto:

So far so good
They were both still alive when I came home and I did not witness any aggression from the Platies towards them.

I decided to feed them and shoved small dosaged of flake food below the water surface so it would sink. And es, we got some eaters . Also, I addedd some freeze dried tubifex worms and they ate the ones that sank (pushed them down a little) AND from the surface, excellent.

After a good meal, the male Apisto showed the Platies who is boss in the tank and chased them around a little. Revenge for their picking yesterday

But I have a new question

In all this fish madness I almost completely forgot that I am getting a small plant order and today it came in. 5 Anubias Nana Petite (just for the fun of it) and 3 (actually got 4 for some reason) Anubias Congensis. Now I know that Anubias are having their rhizome exposed, and I assume that this is the case for all of them. But just to make sure: the Congensis as well? I have pretty much no smaller roots on the rhyzome so I guess that would mean that I have to tie them to something. Also - they get pretty tall, right (18 inches) ?

Here is the new plant order:

Attached Image:

New Plants



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And here is a close-up of two Congensis rhizomes. For the time being I just wedged them in some spots in the tank, for sure not the final position though (front of tank).

Attached Image:

No Roots?



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luvmykrib
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My guess would be that they need the rhizome exposed, also they've probably been trimmed for shipping and will grow new roots quickly, so if you tie them or wedge them in they should have new roots befroe you know it!

Glad to hear the apistos are doing good, I kind of thought they would come up for food, being cichlids they could be greedy little attention seekers, my krib does tricks when she wants to be fed, shows off all over the place. They will colour up nicely as they settle in and when they finally go into the 125 just wait to see their colours explode! Frozen food being as close to live as I have gotten seems to induce mating frenzy in my fish, even the krib, she turns more purple after a good frozen food feast.

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Post InfoPosted 18-Mar-2006 02:04Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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luvmykrib,

So you have your krib in the planted tank? Doesn't make a mess of things? If i can't get my hands on Cockatoo then I might have to do kribs. They have been starting to color up at work and look pretty nice.

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Post InfoPosted 18-Mar-2006 02:41Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
luvmykrib
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She only tears into the plants once in a while, and has never done any real damage to them. I keep her slightly underfed as I do for the rest of the fish. They are really beautiful fish once they colour up in the home tank. If I could I'd get her a mate, right now I just have the barbs (5) and danios (3) and 1 SAE with her, still I worry that a pair would kill the other fish, maybe in a bigger tank it would be fine. I'll have new pictures tonight and I'll try and get a good one of her.

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Don't expect much today. I expect him to resurface in about a week.


No here I am. Saturday morning back in work - busy.

I needed a beer yesterday one those strange "what the hell am I doing here days".

I did a tour of the factory yesterday. Down at the warehouse there is a cement drainage ditch going around the perimeter of the building. This ditch is no more then c foot wide and deep. There's been heavy rain lately so it had no maore then 2 inches of water. As I walked by something caught my eye. This little drainage ditch was swarming with fish , hundreds of them poking about in the soating of mud at the bottom. About an inch. Couldn't make out what they were but looked Rasbora like. Then I noticed there were a lot of crabs up to a couple of inches wide (I didn't even know there were freshwater crabs !) and what's known locally as "bulot", which are like small eels or birchirs. I only know thenm as they make great eating when deepi fried . I don't know of any big body of water nearby, how the hell all this life got in drainage ditch I don't know. It's a very lush country.

Even weirder then that was the next episode. I had my delivery supervisor come to me with a manpower requisition. Wanted to hire a new truck driver. I asked why he need a new driver, and he said the usual guy was sick. Of course I asked why can't we wait for him to come to work.....the conversation in Indonesian went something like this.

Him: "He'll be out for a month, Pak"
Me: "Oh, it must be serious, what's wrong with him ?"
Him: "He's possessed by the devil, Pak"
Me: "Uuuhhhhhhhh ??????"
Him: " Ya, Pak, he was going home from work last night and a demon entered his body"
Me: "You're taking the mickey right ?"
Him: " No Pak, the excorcist says he needs to stay indoors for a month, he can't drive anyway Pak, he keeps twitching"
Me " Well if his head turns 360o he won't need the rearview mirror "
Him: " Sorry Pak, don't understand"
Me: " Are you really asking me to hire somebody else because one of our guys is suffering from demonic possession ?"
Him: "Yes, Pak, why is there is a problem?"

This went on for a another 20 minutes or so, as I tried to explain to the guy why I couldn't give someone a month off because they thought they were in the clutches of a menevolent spirit.......

Really, I sometimes wonder how the hell I ended up here. It's not like they even have draft Guinness.Only the cans.



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Post InfoPosted 18-Mar-2006 04:39Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
luvmykrib
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take breath



I need a kleenex, that brought tears to my eyes and made my belly hurt, if I had a job I'd try that excuse. Sometimes I think the kids are demonic spirits sent here to torture and torment me!

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Post InfoPosted 18-Mar-2006 04:57Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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The really funny thing is that you tryed to have fun with it and the guy didn't have a clue. Talk about culture shock. How long have you been there? Still have to be weird.

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Post InfoPosted 18-Mar-2006 05:41Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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I have read in various reports that in tropical climates fish and other critters can be found in even the smallest ditch. Come to think of it, I also don't recall an explanation on how these animals get there

And I hear you on the troubles with understanding / accepting local customs in a foreign country. Just yesterday I saw thousands of people dressed in green, wearing funny hats, and being drunk, at Noon. I couldn't even get lunch for an hour as the Irish Pub was jammed with youngsters (I would say minors) drinking beer. I have no idea what demon caused them to do that .

Bensaf, I think we have the biggest St. Patrick's Day parade of the world here, they expected 2 million people along the route through Midtown Manhattan. You may have liked it

About the Congensis: I guess we are in sink that the Rhizome cannot be buried, right?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 18-Mar-2006 12:52Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Bensaf


It's not like they even have draft Guinness.Only the cans.

You poor pup!

Look I have enough trouble conversing with the older generation just to buy co2 gas for a planted aquarium - Did you ever?

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I couldn't even get lunch for an hour as the Irish Pub was jammed with youngsters (I would say minors) drinking beer


I just want to say, I noticed the exact same thing. I couldn't go out for my lunch walk yesterday because of that parade. WHile walking down one strett there were tons of kids - 14-17 year old kids - drunk, getting sick, getting arrested by cops. I couldn't believe it, where did they drink all this? How did they get served? And why aren't they in school?


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Post InfoPosted 18-Mar-2006 15:17Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Isn't it cute how kids can get away with such things? Yay for good parents!

About the Congensis: I guess we are in sink that the Rhizome cannot be buried, right?

OH yeah i wouldn't. Best bet now it to tie them down to something and let the roots grow. Once you have roots then you can plant them.

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Post InfoPosted 18-Mar-2006 15:23Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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BTW, legal beer drinking age in Germany is 16.

We learn to handle drinking first and only then are allowed to drive a car (18).

Also, hard liquor legal drinking age is 18.

Wings, thanks for the info on the Congensis .

I guess today I will be busy with at least some bleaching and planting.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 18-Mar-2006 15:35Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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Do you bleach all your new plants?

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Post InfoPosted 18-Mar-2006 16:23Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Wings,

That has nothing to do with the new plants. It is or the ones in the tank that are covered in thread algae.

The new plants will not be bleached as I don't want to stress them for no reason.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 18-Mar-2006 16:41Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
luvmykrib
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Could you detail how the bleaching goes, I'm thinking I need to bleach mine when I do the major over-haul. No sense putting nasties in with the new look!

I remember my little stint across Europe when I was 17, the legal age in Dover, England was 14, in Switzerland it was 16 I think, same in Austria and most of the rest of Europe, do I remember much else? Nope, just a lot of Beer and wine in different countries, what a trip! Oh yeah I think we saw some castles and churches, whatever. Ordering beer in the afternoon in German and drinking it out in the open was a big deal for me then. Now I can barely remember any German, and what I do remember is naughty thus not for polite conversation.

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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 00:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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luvmykrib - I don't know how it is done, maybe someone else should explain it. I trie it today with the result that the threads are now white (dying? ) and I am so worried that my Otos will die.

I am sorry, I am having a moral tank low

I again slaved 7 hours over this tank. I am more in the mood of trashing that planting thing than ever.

Not many words will follow today, just an opera in 6 acts.

Act 1

Attached Image:

Act 1 - Overture to Disaster



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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 01:37Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Act 2

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Act 2 - Let the Slaughter Begin



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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 01:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Act 3

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Act 3 - More Soldiers are Falling



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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 01:39Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Act 4

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Act 4 - The Bloodied Battlefield



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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 01:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Act 5

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Act 5 - Prepare to Surrender



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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 01:41Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Act 6 - Final Act

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Act 6 - Unconditional Surrender



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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 01:42Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Opera Cliff Notes

Attached Image:

Summary Before - After



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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 01:54Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
luvmykrib
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WOW! Major change Ingo! I liked the jungle before and the new look looks good too! Hope you recover enough to tell us more about how it went, from your earlier post it didn't sound like it went all that well. Aren't you risking another algae outbreak with the smaller plant load?
How can you tell with the otos how they are doing? Mine showed no symptoms other than clamped fins until I found them dead, in the 10g I have clamped otos that have continued to live while I lost panda cories. They really didn't give me any warning as to their health.

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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 02:19Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Funny...it looks good no matter how you rearrange it.
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I am not really sure which one I like better. I think there are things about both that I like and dislike but I can't really point them out for some reason. Maybe its because it took me an hour to close the store tonight... people just wouldn't leave!

I guess one thing I really like is the tall grassy stuff in the front. I think that looks sharpe! Other than that I don't know either way. What are your plans for a forground plant? Sag? Going to keep things simple this time?

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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 05:43Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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I definatly like the second one better though I am unsure about that red plant on the far right. Great looking tank though!

Plz stop shaming my algae ridden tanks

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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 05:55Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Gang,

Thanks for the input. I really was tired yesterday, and agitated, to say the least. I did not plan to spend another 7 hours on the tank. But once I started to weed out heavily invested plants one step led to the next and before I knew it the tank was pretty much empty again. I thought that I will use this chance to replant/reorganize the plant groups, as the previous layout could not be recreated because so many plants "had to go".

I will break down the tank sections into 4 parts and explain what went on in my mind and in the process of creating them.

Section A - Anubias Farm

First of all, based on previous suggestions, I decided to group the Anubias together. That in itself is a great idea, the leaf forest will serve as a great base for Espei breeding. So, I placed all anubias on a tray and started to trim off old leaves and in most cases also to divide the plants into 2 as the rhizomes where long enough to do so.
I removed the Anubias first from the tank (not knowing how long this all will take) and hours later, when it was time to put them back in, I checked on them for the first time since trimming.
I was in shock, half the leaves were rolled up and appeared totally dried out and dead. Later, after a while in the tank, most seemed to have recovered though. I tied the Congensis to a rock and placed that one close to the Star Grass as a seperator. Also, the tiny Nana Petites are tied to a small rock.
In addition, I added all my crypt types into this section. The Bacopa is there a a filler, it doesn't fit in but I need fast growers to re-establish the tank.

Attached Image:

Section A



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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 13:42Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Section B - Main Group

This one was the the easy part, at least concerning the Star Grass as I was happy with it's placement. All plants in front of it were removed and I had to figure out what could go in their place. For one thing, I was able to remove the large rock that holds down the wood and replace it with a smaller one. The fern on the wood didn't look all that good in the leftmost position, so I placed it in the crack between wood and rock. That pretty much left me only with the Cyperus Helferi as a plant in front of the Star Grass.
Probably because it took so long for it to grow I simply could not let go of the Helferi. It got a 10 min bleach bath (19 water, 1 bleach) followed by rinsing and storing for hours in clean water (only a few other plants recieved leach baths, they were only dunked in bleach solution and then rinsed off).
Only after adding them back to the tank did I realize that the fuzz is still on them, but I was running out of time. The threads are white or gray and I am afraid that they still contain enough bleach to sicken anyone who may nibble at them.
The overall problem I have with this group is that it is too green. The leaf shape varies, that is good, but all are the same color.

Attached Image:

Section B



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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 13:50Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Section C - The Valley

For this section I had a clear vision, Pearl Grass all the way from the back to the wood, in a sloping fashion. This was an idea that I had going for quite a while, I even suggested a similar approach to upikabu at some point.

Well, I did it and the problem I see now is that I don't get any depth perception of the slope. It looks flat. Maybe if I grow it even further to the front (really low there) then it may work better.

Attached Image:

Section C



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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 13:54Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Section D - What is that?

This section is truely bad and a shame for this tank. I pretty much ended up there with all plants that I don't want to dispose off but couldn't fit in anywhere else.

The Red Rubin Sword was bleach bathed and heavily trimmed, the Alternanthera got a bleach bath too. I need to maintain the Ludwigia as a fast grower, maybe if it gets fuller and taller it will look nice there, don't know yet.

So basically, it is a mess.

And this is why I am not happy. You work so hard on this and the rewards are mixed, at best. It made me feel like I just don't have a good enough vision on how to plant a tank nicely.

Attached Image:

Section D



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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 14:00Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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LF,

Don't let your tank get you down. Its still a work in progress and its cool that you have the guts to try new stuff with your tank. Most of us don't want to don't want to change anything with our tanks. Myself I am dreading to my algae issues on my giant hygro. I guess the moral of the story is that things change, you change your mind and you can always change it again. Get on with it!

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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 15:16Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Ingo, your tank looks great. You are too self critical - but then, most of us are.
Most of us don't want to don't want to change anything with our tanks
Wings is right, you always seem so keen get stuck in & try things in your tank, when others hold back. Sometime ago, you suggested I ask the planted tank gang in a thread, with a pic of my tank, for help to make it look better. Because I don't have the energy at the moment to rearrange, I havn't done that - I have held back. You wouldn't do that - you'd be in it straight away. (I want to sort out my C02 one way or the other first - then I come & ask for help). But you, you'd jump straight in. Good job on the replant. But then, it looked good to me before too.

Cheers
TW
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EditedEdited by tetratech


Not quite sure I know where to start. I liked the tank after you added the wood, but I understand the mass wasn't there to continue.

I think right now you have to fiqure out how not to get into this situation again so the plants get destroyed.

Light, Biofilter, Fish Load, Plant Mass, C02, Nutrients
We need to find out the problem and then move on to the scaping.

My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 16:30Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Where the heck did you get the idea to give a 10 minute bleach bath ? 2 minutes will do it.

Don't worry about the white stuff it's dead algae. Won't harm anyone the fish will make a snack out of it.

Stop worrying full stop. This is supposed to be fun !!!!!

DO NOT DO ANOTHER MAJOR OVERHAUL LIKE THIS FOR A WHILE.iT'S UNSETTLING.

Ok. cap lock off.

Where did you get that much pearlgrass?

You're being hard on your self. A 125 gal is no easy job to scape.
You are on the right track big groupings of a few species is the way to go.The Anubias was a good idea to put together.

Again all that's needed is a big bunch of something dramatic Aromatica type plant.Behind the peargrass would be perfect. Fill out the front left with more crypts -plain old wendtii will do. Behind that some kind of filler like Cambomba to give some lightness. Then fill out the right side with something like Wisteria. I'm keeping to simple cheap easy to find plants to promote some stability. Around the wood and rock fill out with Wendelov Fern or NArrow leaf or more Anubias.

Keep the dosing routine simple and steady. Don't waver.

Fill out the plants as outlined above, keep the dosing steady, sit back and watch for a few weeks. Patience is key, it can take weeks for plants to fill out the way we want them to. Let them fill out with cheapies and fast growers so you can a feel for a full look and shaping. Play with shape of these til you settle on a look you like.

BTW those plants you got a few weeks ago you thought were Anubias - how they doing?



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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 17:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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All - Thank you so much for the encouragement and constructive critzism, I appreciate it.

Yeah, I know that THE most important thing now is balance. I think one problem I created recently was letting the P drop too low (I know, I know, you told me so). I lost all Duckweed, none left, zip, nada, I take it as an indicator for a lack of P as it likes P (and high N).

Bensaf, as sad as it is, I kind of enjoy worrying, that's my nature . It keeps my mind busy and the job intereting. I am almost afraid that just sitting back won't cut it for me.

This doesn't mean you guys should stop helping me out when I am in dispair, please.

That much Pearl Grass? I even through some out. I will post a picture below, just before the current one (weekly update), that shows the tank front full of it all over the place.

I like the Anubias group idea as well, I just don't know if its execution was performed all that well. The "suspicious" Anubias from a few weeks back are still there and they are getting new leaves. I now assume they are Congensis as they look a lot like the ones I just got.

Filler plants for the time being: Good idea, I will just have to get them and find the time to put them in. We will see. I for sure will keep my dosing of ferts up, no reduction.

The front left contains Crypts, as you will see in a close-up shorly. So, on to the main topic.


Weekly tank update - Week 25

Almost all details have been discussed above, but here is a quick summary: Coming back from vacation I noticed that my CO2 ran out. This enhanced an already existing Thread algae problem and the week was used to discuss a possible cleaning/replanting effort. This has been done yesterday and the results, from a visual perspective, are mixed (you be the judge).

The postive highlight of the week was the trade in of 30 Espei as part of a payment for a pair of Apistogrammas. I love them and so far they are doing well in the QT.

Here are some pictures:

First the tank the week before the first major overhaul, in week 18. It was pretty jungle like and the overhaul was needed to retrofit the tankwith wood and to avoid overgrowing.

Attached Image:

Week 18



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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 18:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Now here is a picture of the tank from last weekend, week 24. As you can see (Bensaf), there are loads of Pear Grass growing all over the front of the tank.

They all come from one small batch that I purchased when I set up the tank 25 weeks ago. This plant is versatile, easy to replant, easy to divide, grows partially shaded, in summary a plant that I would recommed any time.

I find that this layout / growth did not give the tank any depth.

Attached Image:

Week 24



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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 18:42Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Now, the tank as of today - week 25

It looks much emptier, partially of course because I removed dying or bad growing plants like most of the Crypt Retrospiralis and Sags / Dwarf Swords. The plant arrangements are not really what I would like to maintain in the long run, but sentimental reasons (Helferi, for example) and fast growers (Bacopa, for example) led to this arrangement.

BTW: I counted 5 Otos this morning, so I take it they are doing fine.

Attached Image:

Week 25 - today



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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 18:46Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Here is a close-up of the Anubias group:

The Nana and Barteri form the center, the Congensis on the right back and the maybe Congensis almost hidden on the left back. The small rock with the Nana Petite is in the front of the main group, flanked by Crypt Lucens and Lutea.

In itself this would for sure make a nice tank, like a 29G. I just don't know how it looks in conjunction with my other plants.

Attached Image:

Anubias Farm



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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 18:52Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Now here is a close-up of the green and red Crypt Wendtiis. I collected them from all over the tank, at least what was left of them, and placed them in one big group, rather close to each other to encourage growth (I think Wings suggested this at some point).

We will see how they are doing there, but traditionally I am not too successful with Wendtiis as they usually have one leaf melting for each new one in all of my 3 tanks.

Attached Image:

Wendtii Farm



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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 18:55Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Here is a close-up of two surviving Glosso stems. They made it all the way through the 2 major overhauls. This time though I actually removed them from the tank before vacuuming to make sure that they will survive.

I don't know what I will do with them once they should decide to take off again. I somehow like the open foreground. Maybe the next fish to get should be a school of Cories, I will have to think about it.

Attached Image:

Glosso



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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 18:57Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Now here is an interesting observation, maybe you have a similar experiece. The Rainbows and the Pearls like to "hang out" together, I would almost go as far as to say that they are schooling together.

This is in particular obvious since my rather brutal netting of the Espei in last weeks trade-in. Before that it seemed to mostly happen before feeding time.

Attached Image:

Pearl and Rainbow Gang



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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 19:04Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Now, this week cannot be complete without showing the Apistos again

They are truely lovely fish and I can only recommend them. It would break my heart if they would not make it in my tank(s). The initial aggression of the Platies towards them has stopped, the male is now clearly the boss in the tank.

Here is the female.She spends most of the time perusing the tank and nipping on plants and gravel. I don't know if she is going for small snails or plant matter. When she feeds on the surface it makes a clicking sound. Beautiful to watch.

Attached Image:

Female



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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 19:08Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
And here is the male. He spends all day patrolling the tank and chasing the Platies, in particular after feeding when all the food is eaten. I wonder why he does that? I think he has colored-up even more and he for sure is nice to observe.

Both male and female are true stalkers. They swim up to something (like moss or gravel) hover for a second or two in front of it, and then they go in for the kill (or whatever they do there), really fast. The same can be said for their routine of surface feeding. They hover just below the surface, eye the food, and then shoot forward to catch it (with a click). Even without reading about it I can say that in nature they eat flies etc. that fall in the water.

Isn't he beautiful?

Attached Image:

Male



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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 19:13Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Gorgeous LF. Really gorgeous. Have you considered using your 20 or 29g as a breeding tank. Might be kinda fun?



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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 19:43Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks tetratech

I first want to make sure that they make it though QT. My Rams also looked fine for a while, and then they died .

And if you don't tell my wife, maybe a commited 10G for breeding (at some point) might be appropriate. What I know so far is that there is quite some time invoved in growing out the fry. Also, it is virtually impossible to identify males and females for a long time. This would mean that you have to keep as many fry as you can to assure possible pairs later on.

So overall this would be quite a challenge.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 20:14Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
luvmykrib
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Thay are absolutely beautiful! I love the way he flares his spines in the pic of the male. Their behavior is typical cichlid hunting behavior I think as my krib does the same things. It's a delight to watch her picking around the tank. I love it when she jumps out from behind the main driftwood and lunges at one of the other residents, they flee madly away from her and she looks so smug, it's like she's playing a game only she can understand. They may eat bits of the plants but not destroy them. I feed algae flakes every now and then, it is good for the digestion. Most cichlids are omnivorous opportunity feeders. They are truly magnificent Ingo, I really hope they make into their final home with no issues, once there they will quickly become the rulers of their territory I'm sure.

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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 20:47Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I so have to get my hands on a couple Apistos. I was talking to my boss about it the other day and he said that I am better off trying to get them through the local club rather than him. He also said that they are hardier than Rams. I said cool man! Although I really do like rams too... I guess I will have to set up another tank sometime or change a tank over. I can see some problems occoring later on when I am married...

Oh my boss has gone on colecting trips to SA for discus because he used to breed them. I guess I will have to trust him on this one.

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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 21:39Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
There is one more thing I would like to share about the Apistos, especially the female. I swear I didn't tinker with the camera settings and the lens is reflecting what I see in the tank.

I had a feeling this morning that she is coloring up and then I checked again this afternoon. She is getting yellow, which - in terms of Apistogramma viejita - means she is getting ready. Wow, that would be almost too fast .

But see for yourself and let me know if I am fooling myself. First sequence is from the evening I got them, so 3 days ago. The middle one is from around 10:30 AM today and the other one is from a few minutes ago, so 7 hours later.

EDIT: It also appears as if the middle part of her caudal fin is growing back in already, nice.

Attached Image:

Do I see Yellow?



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Post InfoPosted 20-Mar-2006 00:33Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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I see yellow!

Therefore you should come see my tank!

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Post InfoPosted 20-Mar-2006 01:26Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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Not quite egg guarding colors, but getting yellower nonetheless. You'll know when she's getting feisty. Lovely couple LF, good luck with them. Breeding them in your water would be difficult though, I think it's a little hard? Acid Rain told me that the eggs harden if the the water isn't soft enough. A 50/50 RO/Tap combo would probably do the trick. I love apistos and other dwarf cichlids(look around at some nannacara sp.), they make up for their size with outstanding colors.

Can't believe you completely made over the tank again. This is the 4-5th time? Those plants must get tired of moving, I know I would. Looks nice every time, don't let any nitpickers tell you different.



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LITTLE_FISH
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Matty,

Thanks for the input

Yeah, I am getting tired of these major overhauls as well, although I think it is only the second time around that I removed almost all my plants at once.

I think I have actually very soft water, the one time I checked my GH I got a reading of 1dH (same as my tab KH), that is why I add the Seachem Equilibrium after each water change. So maybe there is egg hope in the future, although I am certainly not in a rush with anything. All I really want them to do is to survive happily

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 20-Mar-2006 03:13Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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No phosphates ? You killed Duckweed, a plant that could survive a nuclear holocaust ? Where was all the "I have got a lot of P in my tap" nonsense we've been listening to for the last 65 pages ????

Fine if you enjoy worrying just don't pull your hair out over it....ooopppps, too late

I have to agree the "execution" of the ANubias planting is not the best. Too flat. Get some rocks and tie/rubber band the Anubias on to crate some shape and a bit of mound. Or a bit of rock pile and use the Anubias to fill in cracks etc. You got fill that area with a real nice feature that would be almost maintenance free. It would make a nice playground for the Apisto's too

I know you have crypts on the left but add more don't wait for the existing ones to fill in. More, more. hat and the Anubias structure would fill out that side of the tank real nice. Very little work to keep looking good.

Those Apisto's have something in common with me - they get better looking with age

The after feeding aggression is normal for lots of fishes. After the initial feeding frenzy is over it's time to collect the scraps, lot's a fish will suddenly get territorial and chase away others to give itself a better chance of getting the scraps before anyone else.

They poke around the plants looking for things like snail eggs , hydra and other little micro-organisms. Great to watch.


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Post InfoPosted 20-Mar-2006 04:35Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Fine if you enjoy worrying just don't pull your hair out over it....ooopppps, too late



Yeah, the loss of Duckweed is a miracle to me. Having kept up my dosing of N even with reduced plant mass, and having more fish (by growth, not number) should mean that N was not a factor. The only nutrient I tinkered with was P and I am rather certain that I did not let that one bottom out but more likely had it between 1 and 2ppm. But given that nothing else changed, that must have been it. Or - I see the Rainbows and Pearls occasionally nibbling on it and during my last overhaul about 5 weeks ago I did reduce the amount of duckweed so that only a handful remained. Maybe, just maybe, the fish ate more than the growth rate of the plant.

I will create a picture of an Anubias mount on the left of the tank later, and then talk about issues I could see with it.

Thanks for the info on the "after feeding" aggression and the poking .

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 20-Mar-2006 12:23Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Tainted Glory
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Wouldn't you know it...I went to work on Sunday and found a tankfull of awesome Rasboras. I took a bunch home. Gotta love how that works! Fish are awesome man, Tom hasn't shut up about them yet! Tank looks good too. Good call on the Apistos.
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Its fun bringing fish home from Local breeders. Tonight I just brought home a BN from this guy that is older than dirts tank. He is thinking of pulling the female because he still has way too many of them in his 90G. I think he brought in about 100 of them and he said he has more where that came from....... Nice healthy fish though.

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Post InfoPosted 21-Mar-2006 01:51Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Tainted Glory,

So you got some of my Espei, great . How many did you get? Glad to hear that Tom likes my fishies, I guess they sell pretty good then (if not snatched up by all the employees first).

Now you take good care of them as I had a rather hard time letting them go . And give me some updates on them once in a while, will you?

Ingo


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Gang,

I would need all your brain power to help me on the Anubias Mount idea that Bensaf just recently mentioned. It makes perfect sense to me to have the Anubias in that arrangement, but I have quite a few issues with the actual implementation.

The picture below shows a rough sketch of two possible layouts, yellow indicates an independent mount that has its own center, orange starts off low on the left and continually rises to the right to attach to the main Star Grass group. Here are a few thoughts:

- The main issue I believe is the water flow in the tank. The spray bar is on the top left side (horizontally) and the intake sits also on the left side at the back bottom. I am concerned that a mount right in front of the intake would create a rather strong current in that area. I also could see that such a layout would cut off the right side from the water flow completely.
- If this group should become a favorite hangout for Espei (perfect for eggs on the underside of the big Anubias leaves) and Apistos then wouldn't a strong current suck all the fry into the intake?
- Keeping the overall structure in mind, would that create a nice horizon (light blue) for the whole length?

What are your ideas?

Ingo

Attached Image:

Some Options



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Post InfoPosted 21-Mar-2006 19:50Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
luvmykrib
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Ingo after all the work you just did on the tank, are you sure you're ready to mess with the structure more? If so here's my idea for making the retreat for fry safe from the intake and keeping a nice horizon.
Here
It's in very bright colours but I think it's straight forward.

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Post InfoPosted 21-Mar-2006 21:27Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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If this group should become a favorite hangout for Espei (perfect for eggs on the underside of the big Anubias leaves) and Apistos then wouldn't a strong current suck all the fry into the intake?


Umm, do you want more Espei fry? It's also no guarantee that they'll breed over there, plus this isn't an Espei breeding tank, so i would'nt change the landscape around just to fit their needs.

As for the Apistos, if you want to make things nice for them to breed make a little bit of rock work on the far side of the tank, on the right. They'll seek a rock/ cave structure to lay their eggs on (see Tetra's rams), but that's something you can control. Basically, make 'em an offer they can't refuse. Besides, in order to survive with the pearls and rainbows they'll have to hang out in the undergrowth and not wander too far - by the time they're big enough to safely come out they should be strong enough swimmers


Back in the saddle!
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LITTLE_FISH
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luvmykrib - Yup, bright colored, but easy to understand . I was almost afraid that someone suggests this "change" as it was an option that I had on my mind but neglected to mention because of the work involved . Actually, I think this would be the best solution for all things considered.

NowherMan6, sure do I want more Espei . Didn't you see the entry above from Tainted Glory? He works at the LFS where I just traded my Espei. Imagine if I could get all future fish on a reduced price based on trade-ins.
And again, as I mentioned to luvmykrib , I thought that this is how it would have to be. Anubias on rocks to the right, doubling up as a breeding ground for Espei and Apistos. That may work.

It might actually not be such a mess to swap the 2 groups. All Amubias are sitting rather lose on the gravel at the left and most plants on the right can be easily pulled (except the Red Rubin Sword, that will be a little messy). At least the gravel does not have a lot of gunk on it as it had been cleaned very well last weekend.

In addition, I will recieve (I believe tomorrow) a plant order of:

Mother plant Green Wendtii
Mother plant Red Wendtii
A Few Stems of Ludwigia arcuata (Needle Leaf)
And for the fun of it - 1 Anubias pynaertii and 1 Anubias afzelii

I guess I will "park" them in the tank until I have more time to plant on the weekend.


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I am glad you were also thinking of that suggestion, I didn't want it to come from left field but I think it will look quite nice when it's done.
I recently added the l. arcuata to both my tanks, it's a great plant with small needle leaves, the one in the 10 is shedding leaves as quick as it is growing new ones, but it is still growing and that's what counts, maybe keep it away from the current will help, and the one in the 25 looks great, it is a wonderful contrast to the lager leaves of the crypts and the nana it is beside. Too bad it doesn't come in red, it doesn't does it?
More anubias to fill in the mound? The more the merrier! How will you be able to tell them apart? Little garden tags beside each one? Can't wait to see them. Have you decided which rocks to pile together and how it may look when it's finished?

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Post InfoPosted 21-Mar-2006 23:21Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks luvmykrib for the info on the arcuata. I ordered only 4 and given the prize for it I assume it means 4 stems (I actually wanted to have another type of Ludwigia, but they were out of that one and called me to select a replacement, very nice). With such a small mass to begin with it will take a while before I have a needle forest .

Good idea about the plant tags, I am sure that it is only a question of time until I will have to look at photos on the web to identify which plant is what. Fortunately I am pretty good at adding the names of the plants I have to my profile, so at least I don't have to even search for that.

I have loads of rock of the kind that you see holding down the big branch. I simply assumed that I will go ahead and pile them up somehow, leaving small openings and overhangs for the Apistos and the Espei.

Do I know how it will look in the end? No clue . I think the one thing that stopps me from becoming a good scaper is the fact that I am rather bad at imagening how things will look like when all is said and done .

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 22-Mar-2006 00:50Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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They'll seek a rock/ cave structure to lay their eggs on (see Tetra's rams), but that's something you can control. Basically, make 'em an offer they can't refuse

Yes that's really true the 2 times I did see eggs in my tank from my rams they spawned in two different areas of the tank. First time it was on the surface of a flat rock the 2nd time they spawned on the vertical face of one of the rocks making up the beachfront. So ya never know what they're thinking. Might be a coincedence but the 2nd time they spawned in the front the eggs never made it to fry. The first them I had about 100 fry, but you know the story from there............

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Thanks tetratech, certainly an interesting observation. I hope one day I can report back on multiple spawning sites, but until then we have to hope that they make it though.

And tetratech, no comment on the desired Anubias mount? You currently are the man of the perfect layout, I need your advice .

Besides that, I am in love with a girl. Yes, besides my wife and daughter, I have a new girl. The female Apisto has taken my heart by storm. Just look at her development in only 5 days:

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Post InfoPosted 22-Mar-2006 02:21Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I can't see any problems with flow etc. Many people use big structures like this hide intakes etc. I know I do.

Take out the Anubias , get a few rocks and put them in and arrange, study, re-arrange 'til you are happy (late August 2012 is my guess ). You are not uprooting anything so it'll be minimal disturbance. If you like you rubber band select Anubias to the rocks, the rest can just be put in cracks or gaps (don't force them in).

I gurantee you'll be happy with the look. It's a very natural vista and it will help highlight and balance the more delicate lines of the driftwood.


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Post InfoPosted 22-Mar-2006 03:54Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Besides that, I am in love with a girl.

I assume your not like ther rest of us poor slobs and you go for personally as well as looks.

Unless you go saltwater it's tough to beat the personally and looks of the dwarf cichlids.

I have to go back again to look at the anubias situation. Remember I only had anubias once and I didn't like the way it looked in my setup.







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LF,

Your fish is looking really nice. She must like you too. Well at least what you have given her.

As for the Anubias mound. Bensaf has already kind of said what to do. Just keep playing with it until you find something that flows for you. This will be easy for you to change and mess around with too. The one thing I would like to add though is to try using fishing line instead of rubber bands. It won't jump out at you as much. Just make sure to not tie it too tight and cut the plant.

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you go for personally as well as looks
Yeah, she seems to be very smart, well spoken, and displays great manners at the dinner table

Honestly, I thought these fish may be a little on the shy side first, but when they swim near the front glass they don't move away at all when I touch it. It almost seems as if they would like to come even closer so I can pet them (I think I lost it completely).

Wings - thanks for the info. I have gotten pretty good at tying things down with thread and I think I will stick to that method. And for Apisto food, appetizers are flakes and the main course is some freeze dried tubifex worms.

Speaking of Anubias (), I am currently paying the prize for letting them sit out of the water during the overhaul. As I mentioned before, various leaves did not like the hours in the air and started wo wrinkle up and appreared very dry. Most seemed to have recovered though, but a few are now displaying holes and missing pieces on the edges. Maybe during the creation of the mount I will cut them off, albeit they don't show signs of disintegration, just missing parts.

Speaking of mount etc., anyone has any idea where I would place the two Wendtiis (red/green)? I don't have them yet, but given the prize and description (mother plant) I expect them to be rather large. I for sure think that one will look very nice in the front left corner, but what about the other one? The mount in itself, I think I will first try to have it slope down from right to left so the height evens out with the Star Grass next to it (and I may put the Bacopa - currently all the way on the left - in between Star Grass and mount) going down to the left side. Sounds good? I am asking now as the plants will arrive today and I can see myself not being able to wait until the weekend to redo the scape, I just cannot resist .

Sorry about the long entry,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 22-Mar-2006 15:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Long entries are cool but you better check the thread out about Flourish Excel. (someone is in trouble...)

So you know that you do not do will with Crypts so what do you do... get more of them.... just remember half of being smart is knowing what your bad at and staying away from it.

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half of being smart is knowing what your bad at and staying away from it

... and the other 90% of being smart is learning from your mistakes and making it better the next time around .

Crypts are simply to nice to only try once. Although you are right and I had no success with them so far, I still managed to maintain some of them for one year now. They just never turned into anything and all just have a few leaves (new ones come, old ones melt). It may have to do with the fact that I divided the original plant way too early, just a guess.

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Post InfoPosted 22-Mar-2006 16:45Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by tetratech
The picture below shows a rough sketch of two possible layouts, yellow indicates an independent mount that has its own center

I'm not following this anubias mound. You do mean mound right, because you keep saying mount (2nd language thing or typo?)

If I follow correctly an anubias mound on one side of the tank. Aren't anubias used scattered around a big tank to fill in between rocks, wood and sometimes other plants for contrast. Can't you make an "anubias playground" in front of the main rock/dw/stargrass area making it dense in the middle front then less dense as you move away from the middle.

If not enough space, you might be able to move the grassy plant in front of the stargrass into two groups that are left and right of the center with the anubias group sort o in the middlefront and blending into it.


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mound - ah yes, that is what I mean, thanks

See, logically for me, a small mountain is a mount and not a mound. So where did the t get replaced with a d? That's the problem with English as a second language.

In front of the Star Grass group may be nice as well, you are right. But the tank is only 18" deep and I would have to build the group over the main flat branch it the front all the way to the glass. I think it will become very crowded there with this approach. Also, the Anubias leaves will lose their contrasting appearance with the overwhelming Star Grass behind it. I will take a closer look at this option tonight.

Otherwise, what do you think about a mound on the left of the Star Grass?

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Post InfoPosted 22-Mar-2006 17:19Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by tetratech
Otherwise, what do you think about a mound on the left of the Star Grass?

Personally I think it would look good if you did one on the right side as well. I'm not saying everything has to be symmetrical, but in this case I think it would'nt "flow" good to have anubias just on the left.

I think you also need to decide on your corners. You know you could lay those heaters down so you won't see them. You could also buy those hydor inline heaters and it will completely eliminate those two heaters in the tank.

I just think heightening the corners reduces your flexiblity and competes with the center. Unless your gonna build a back of varying height all the way across.

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Hay, all these decisions

Unless your gonna build a back of varying height all the way across
That is pretty much what I have, isn't it?

Also, I think you may misunderstand the mound idea. I would like it to be really low on the way way left, rising towards the Star Grass. I could even go so far as leaving a few inches open all the way at the left and all the way to the back.
if you did one on the right side as well
Hm, sounds nice, but the downside would be that there will be not much space left for any other type of plant.
buy those hydor inline heaters and it will completely eliminate those two heaters in the tank
I actually have currently 3 heaters in the tank, two stealth at 200W each on the left and one regular with 300W on the right. If I am not mistaken then the Hydor have a max capacity of 300W. I would have to have a few in line (or parallel) and I don't know how feasible that would be.

Too many thoughts, "overload - Will Robinson"

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Post InfoPosted 22-Mar-2006 18:21Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Well, when I look at your tank right now, I see mostly high center and high corners.

I think I understand the mound, but I guess I would have to see it with anubias only in one location. If it's a tank in itself with an anubias mound that of course we have seen.

Your right about the heater. I bet you don't even need the 300 watt visi-therm. I have one 250 watt stealth and I have absolutely no fluctation and I just went through a New York Winter. Actually if the mild winters keep up I'll have to get a chiller. You know they sell these regulators inline that chill and heat? I think you could fit a 6-pack in there as well.

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Post InfoPosted 22-Mar-2006 19:09Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Too many thoughts, "overload - Will Robinson"

So just to prove that I have some sort of reading issue. I read Will Robinson as Robin Williams.

Inline heaters? Sounds really sweet. tetratech. post a link!

I guess it is hard to see what you have in mind for the Anubias. Can't wait to see whats in your head.




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Post InfoPosted 23-Mar-2006 00:14Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Welcome to neurosis central folks ! Pull up a chair and grab a Prozac

Anubias are very very versatile. They can be used to fill gaps , make backgrounds, mounds etc.

Remember too that LF has some of the taller bigger varieties. It doesn't have to be a mound - it can be a peak if you want. Whatever rocks your boat. But whatever it is it can only look better then laying flat on the substrate, a waste of plant and space IMHO

Tetra didn't like the look of Anubias in his tank becasue he chopped it up into little bits and spread it around the tank in really odd places Thankfully he has learned to aquascape since then

Something has to be done with the left section it's a barren wasteland compared to the rest of the tank.

Ingo,
With the crypts if they fit I would put them altogether. I've mentioned before crypts always seem to do better when planted in groups. Individual plants always seem to be a bit wimpy.

A 6 footer is not easy to 'scape. I'm guessing that the best way to approach is take a small section perfect that and then see what will work best to flow away from there. Basically work your way from one side to the other.

I think the pile of rock with Anubias fronted by a thick grove of crypts would be real nice, simple but effective. The tall species like the Congensis are particularly suitable for this approach. It'll be darker there but that will offset the brighter stargrass even better.

How long is it going to take to temporarily rubber band a few Anubias to rocks and put in the tank and play around with it ? Stop pulling the last two hairs on your head out and get your hands wet


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Post InfoPosted 23-Mar-2006 03:56Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Tetra didn't like the look of Anubias in his tank becasue he chopped it up into little bits and spread it around the tank in really odd places

If the plant can't stand being chopped up and put in strange places and positions then "GET OUT OF MY TANK"

It's funny I originally got that anubias for my 12gallon and it didn't make the cut in their either.



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Gang,

Thanks so much for your input, but anything that came after Noon yesterday has not been read until all was planted . As such, the tank is yet again a product of my skewed visions of what may look good.

But first things first, the plants were already at home when I arrived, not too bad for having ordered them just the day before. Well, upon opening the package I was a little in shock. The order was a bit larger than expected, in particular the Wendtiis were huge and the Anubias pynaertii has a hight of about 18 inches. Also, I got 3 Anubias afzelii (ordered one) and 6 bunches of Needle leaf Ludwigia with 8 stems each. I think by now I can recommend this source of plants, I believe tetratech uses them as well - aquariumplants.com.

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New Plants have Arrived



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Next I had to wash them all. This took quite a while because the Wendtiis turned out to be multiple plants (5 green and 3 red), each encased with this nasty growing wool .

After cleaning I placed them all in the tank to avoid drying out (as happened last weekend to some of my Anubias) while I ripped out my last two hairs wondering what to do now (where is the smiley simboizing a bald guy? ). The big mount idea was gone very soon as I determined that it would take loads of rock to create any significant height (played with the rocks I have on the coffee table).

BTW, I was reading about Floating Meadows in TFH and somehow this arrangement just looks like one. The younger Espei really like zooming through these floating plants. Maybe there is an idea for the future or another hobbyist.

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Plants parked



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Then it was time to take action, and boy it was almost another major overhaul yet again . First I removed all plants from the far right, except the Alternanthera. Here I added all 5 Green Wendtii in the midground and some pearl grass in front of it. Gaps were filled with Helferi and Retrospiralis remains.

Next it was the Pearl Grass valley's turn, out with all the plants. I placed some Helferi in the way back and a rock with the Congensis at the right of the valley. In front of that rock I tied my 2 mystery Anubias and my 3 new Afzelii to the rock that holds down the wood on the right. In the gap I placed one of the red Wendtii and another one in front of the Star Grass.

On to the left side. All Anubias Barterii and Nana out of the tank and back in, closer to the Star Grass group, with the new Peruensis in the back (tied to a small rock as it had insufficient roots to be stuck into the gravel). A Helferi and 2 smaller Retrospiralis are added for contrast. Then I regrouped my existing crypt plants (small Wendtiis, Lucens, Lutea) in front of it, the narrow leaf and needle leaf Ludwigias to the left, and one new red Wendtii in front of that group. Last but not least I filled gaps with small plants, mostly Pearl Grass.

So, 3 hours later- here is the result:

Attached Image:

New Tank Layout



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Then it was time to close shop as I got tired and it was almost time for lights out in the tank. I fed the fish (they can also be seen eating on top in the full shot) and just enough time for one more picture from the right half of the tank, an attempt to show more detail. Then the lights went out in the tank and it was time to say good night.

Overall, as usual, I am not too excited with the results, but I am not disappointed either. The least I get out of this is a larger plant mass

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Right Half



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EditedEdited by Wingsdlc
LF,

Pretty good work my friend. I like it. Did you about poo your pants after finding plants that look as large as house plants to go in your tank?

The one thing I sugest to you is move the grassy plants on the left closer to the center.

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Post InfoPosted 23-Mar-2006 14:29Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by tetratech
LF,
I think you did a fine job placing the anubias in and around the wooded area in the center and spreading it out.
Have you considered adding some more rock work to the left and right of the center to hide some stems and give it more depth and take out the flatness. Nothing overpowering just accents, but it will give it more visual interest and blend it with the center.


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...after finding plants that look as large as house plants to go in your tank?
I have to confess that I have never seen (in person) Wendtii this tall and full. This is a whole other plant than the tiny pieces that I have, and ever had. I knew I was getting a larger plant (mother) and as such the size did not really surprise me, but what did was the number of these plants (1 mother red = 3 large red, 1 mother green = 5 large green). In the end I am actually rather happy with their placement, for the time being , grouping all green was a good idea, but having the even larger red ones spread out seems to work as well as they connect the individual broad leaved Anubias groupings.
Have you considered adding some more rock work to the left and right of the center to hide some stems and give it more depth and take out the flatness
I truely ran out of time . I can't see any stems on the right, and on the left I only see the roots of the Anubias as they are not buried but places losely on top of the gravel, held down by the gravel that attached itself to their roots when they were submersed. I would have loved to try rockwork on the left, but time was short and the old man got tired .

I am currently waiting for Bensaf's report on the Ground Crew and that is one reason why I don't want to plant all the way to the front anymore. Other reasons are that it is easier to clean and that if intself generated more depth.

Thanks for the comments to both of you, as always it is very much appreciated,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 23-Mar-2006 15:20Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Now them are some Crypts. Love them.

I have to agree with tetra - I think you dd a fine job in planting them. Perfect. Is it just me or does the whole scape look more solid ? That's what I was trying to get at. You now have an anchor you can build around.

I was think the very same thing as tetra (fools seldom differ ? ). A few rocks between the Anubias and Crypts on the left, just accents maybe layer the Anubias just a tiny bit.

Great job.


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Post InfoPosted 23-Mar-2006 16:00Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Great job


Come on, you just want me to agree with you on your upcoming Ground Crew report .

Actually, the fact that I was not happy with the design but not horribly upset either indicated to me that it was pretty ok. I agree, the scape looks more solid and this is in most part due to the stretch of larger leaves all across the tank's width (I believe).

I hear both of you on the rocks. One also has to keep in mind that the Ludwigia family on the way left behind the large red Wendtii will grow significantly higher. So maybe the best way to include rocks in the Anubias section would be a U shaped layout where the left side guides down from the higher Ludwigia and the right side guides up to the higher Star Grass.

Thanks Bensaf,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 23-Mar-2006 16:28Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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My money is on ground crew. I'll be making a post later on this very subject. Just need to prepare some pics.

A white paper on grounds crew dynamics. Oh this is gonna be good.

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Post InfoPosted 23-Mar-2006 17:18Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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It is already out there tetratech (and all others),

Here is the link to it. It may explain why your substrate is so clean.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 23-Mar-2006 17:26Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I finished off the tank last night and tried to rearrange the Anubias on the left with the help of some rock. After playing for about an hour, rocks in - Anubias on top - Anubias back off - rocks rearrange - and so forth, I decided on having only one rock on the way right of this group. That elevated the Anubias there and has the group sloping down to the left.

Then I added a little more Pearl Grass and my 5 Nana Petite that were still sitting in a bucket with water, and called it a night. Enough is enough

Here is the tank:

Attached Image:

Full Tank



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Post InfoPosted 24-Mar-2006 11:59Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Here is now a picture just of the left side. I hope that the arrangement is even remotely what you had in mind when suggesting the addition of rocks.

BTW, not one Anubias in this group needed to be tied on as all have gravel on their roots that pulls them down. This made it a little easier.

Attached Image:

Left Tank Side



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Post InfoPosted 24-Mar-2006 12:02Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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And here is a close-up of my main log. As covered in algae as it is, it also has some beauty to it. If I could be sure that existing algae is not an invitation to disaster then I wouldn't mind this particular algae in only this area at all.

I think it makes it look very natural

Attached Image:

Algae Log



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Post InfoPosted 24-Mar-2006 12:05Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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And last, here is the middle section of the tank that (I hope) brings the sides together. I added a little more Pearl Grass in some spots and placed the Nana Petite in front of the log.

Could be a nice tank in itself.

Attached Image:

Center Area



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Post InfoPosted 24-Mar-2006 12:08Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by Wingsdlc
I think you are on the right track with the Anubius but I think you need to make it larger. Maybe have it be more of a rounded structure.

I like the looks of the algae on the front log too! Natural looking. In the discus tank at work there is aglae growing on top of a peice of DW that actually looks pretty good. It has been there ever since I have started (about 7 months ago). When I started using Excel it started to go away but not that I am running CO2 on this tank its coming back. It is the only place in the tank that has it so I am not freaking out. Yet...

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Post InfoPosted 24-Mar-2006 14:58Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
GandB
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Man, I've been gone for awhile now. This is a very nice set-up (and the longest thread I've ever seen). One of these days things will slow down enough to where I can begin to get back into the hobby like this. Good work.

-Keith

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Post InfoPosted 24-Mar-2006 17:22Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Keith,

Thanks for the input. I am flattered to have someone who hasn't been on FP for a while add his first entry into my log - and on top of it has something positive to say about my tank.

Thank you very much,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 24-Mar-2006 17:32Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
dan76
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be mindful of the future my young padawain, ()


kill the algea now or end up with a tank that looks like mine

OH TOLEEDY!
Post InfoPosted 25-Mar-2006 09:17Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
FRANK
 
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Hi,
I too had a piece of driftwood in my tank. It became
"encrusted" with hair algae and really looked beautiful
as the long hairs swayed in the currents. But, alas,
all was not well, and the "hairs" broke off and gathered
elsewhere on my plants, and soon the whole tank was
swaying in the currents. It took forever, and the removing
of the dirftwood for me to resolve the problem.
Frank


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Post InfoPosted 25-Mar-2006 18:04Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Rob1619
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Looking really nice..love the drifwood

Robby



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Post InfoPosted 25-Mar-2006 21:09Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Tanks to all 3 of you for the input and information regarding algae on the driftwood.

I did my water change today (photos and details will follow tomorrow) and used that chance to scrape off some of the algae. Not all is gone though, I may need a few sessions to get rid of it. This also gives me the chance to see if it spreads again.

A slightly troublesome development happened today in the QT. After the water change in that tank I noticed that one of the platies was breathing really hard. On closer observation it seemed that the fish was not able to close its mouth anymore at all. Also, some slight swelling up of the fish was noticable, like the beginning of dropsy.

It happened to be one of my original females that were added 7 months ago, I am rather certain that she must have been at least 1 year old because she was fully grown when I got her and had babies right away. I had to let her go .

I will keep an eye on the situation, all others are doing just fine. My concern, besides that there is a chance of an illness, is that the young adult male will terrorize the remaining females. He was already a pushy little punk before, but now there are less females for him to herass. If he gets out of control (and there is no sign of further illness) then I will move him into the 29G, here he has to stand his man in a crowd of larger Sunset males, they are going to show him his rightful place .

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Mar-2006 00:24Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Weekly Tank Update - Week 26

The last week was rather boring, besides 2 events that are worthwile to be noted.

1) A new plant order came in on Wednesday and has been added to the tank, some re-arranging was required in the attempt to create some flow.

2) A side-discussion with Bensaf in another thread revealed that my addition of Seachem Equilibrium is rather insignificant. I forgot to read the instructions and basically added only enough to raise the GH by 0.17 dH . I measured my GH yesterday in the morning and I have to say that it was not easy to interpret the test kit. It seems I am having maybe 2 to 3 dGH, which in itself would be fine. After the water change I added double the usual amount of Equilibrium, I figure it cannot harm and I will see if things improve.

The replant from last weekend (major) is still having an impact on the tank. The fool that I am I forgot to suberse the Anubias for hours and I am still losing one or the other leaf. Even worse, my 10 minute bleach dip turned almost all Helferi leaves brownish. I assume I will have to remove them soon.

This week I am showing a series of pictures to demonstrate the change the tank underwent of the last 26 weeks. First, the tank when it was just set up:

Attached Image:

After Initial Setup - 26 Weeks ago



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Post InfoPosted 26-Mar-2006 13:51Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Here is the tank 6 weeks later, in the meantime it underwent a Weed-Treatment to generate as much plant mass as possible in the shortest period possible to establish the tank quickly. Now the first attempts to scape have begun:

Attached Image:

Week 6



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Post InfoPosted 26-Mar-2006 13:53Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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By week 17 the tank had grown into a jungle and it became almost impossible to maintain it at that stage. Plants were shading each other, the substrate couldn't be reached anywhere anymore (except for the areasin which the Glosso had been removed because it killed itself by being 5 layers deep).

In other words, a change was needed soon:

Attached Image:

Week 17



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Post InfoPosted 26-Mar-2006 13:57Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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And onl 2 weeks later the tank underwent its largerst overhaul to date, all but one plant had been removed and replanted, or simply thrown away. A major piece of driftwood was added in an attempt to improve on the scape, I think it was a good move although, once done, the tank still wasn't all that great.

Attached Image:

Week 19



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Post InfoPosted 26-Mar-2006 13:59Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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The tank started to show major algae (thread) issues after this replant and the fact that I lost the CO2 for about a week while being on vacation made the situation even worse. Something needed to be done and I, once again, removed almost all plants and restyled the arrangement. Only the plants that had not too much thread algae on them were added back in, others were trimmed or discarded.

This left me with the lowest plant mass in a long time.

Attached Image:

Week 25



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LITTLE_FISH
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And, as described in the update post above, I decided to add more plants for 2 main rasons:

- Mass
- Flow (design)

So far I find the layout pretty nice. Yes, there is room for improvement, but not right now. And if you compare the Star Grass in the last 2 pictures you will see that growth is good, in particular when I add that I had to trim about 4 inches of the top.

Attached Image:

This Weekend - Week 26



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Post InfoPosted 26-Mar-2006 14:06Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Here are just a few detail shots nothing much.

The first one is of the arranged - and rearranged - Anubias group on the left half of the tank. As you can see, it slopes downward from the Star Grass to the Needle Leaf Ludwigia. I may play with this group in the future, but for now I will leave it alone.

Attached Image:

Anubias Group



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Post InfoPosted 26-Mar-2006 14:09Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Here is a shot of my Nana Petite arrangement, not to creative, lined up in front of the main driftwood. I had a hard time trying to tie them to rocks and decided that for the time being they should be buried in the substrate. Don't worry, the rhizome is not buried.

I am very curious as to what these little buggers will turn into. Actually, I read somewhere that over time Nana Petites will start to develop larger leaves again as the dwarf gene is not persistent. Any info on that?

Attached Image:

Anubias Nana Petite



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Post InfoPosted 26-Mar-2006 14:13Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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One of the residents in the tank that is thriving on my algae supply. While I don't see them eat the longer threads, they for sure nibble on the young growth right next to it. I haven't been able to account for them all in at least 2 weeks, but I am sure that most of them are doing well.

Uh, this reminds me, maybe it is time now for some Amano Shrimp, what do you think?

Attached Image:

Oto



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Post InfoPosted 26-Mar-2006 14:15Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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And last but not least, the newcomers

It will be a few weeks (maybe 3 more) before I will add them, but they arereally beautiful. I guess I didn't do enough research before I purchased them as I basically accepted the fact that will have a dull female in my tank and the male's color will balance this out. I find her coloration just as attractive as his, and she is a feisty little fish.

And that's it for now,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Apisto viejita II - Pair



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Post InfoPosted 26-Mar-2006 14:18Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
LF,
The board is quiet today,
Anyway what happened to this layout. I really liked the way you spread the anubias around. It appears to have changed with the new additions.

Still looks nice. I like the Nana Petite arrangement in front of the driftwood.

I have to ask this. What have you changed that you think will help with the algae situation this time around? More co2, anything else?

As far as shrimp go, make sure that the dwarf cichlids won't eat them. I thought I read somewhere that certain species might.

Attached Image:


My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 26-Mar-2006 19:54Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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tetratech,

Thanks for the input. To answer some of your questions:

- The Anubias are exactly were they were in the picture you showed, except that the group on the left is sloped and a few of the crypts in front of it (lucens and lutea) have been moved a little.
- To avoid algae I will keep my CO2 crancked up and the ferts as well.
- Thanks for the info on the shrimp. It was a thought that crossed my mind, but I thought that if they are ok with your Bolivians then they should be fine with the smaller Apistos as well. Guess that may not be true.

The only thing I did yesterday was to remove 3 male Platies from the QT. Nasty little buggers. I observed them chasing after the Apistos and attempting to nip their fins, even the male's . Off they went to the 29G. The rest of the day was pretty much commited to resting, as I got a cold

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 27-Mar-2006 13:04Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Glad the anubias are still there, cause it looked nice.

Never saw the bolivans go after the shrimp, but you never know. It would be an expensive snack for those fish.

Do me a favor and put a lot of java moss in your tank so some apistos fry will survive and you could send some to live with Uncle Tetra

My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 27-Mar-2006 15:14Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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...you could send some to live with Uncle Tetra
Well, Uncle Tetra

Will do, but first they would have to breed for me, and then I would have to overcome the same hurdle than you with your Bolivians - how to manage to feed the fry. Time will tell.

Yeah, $5 per piece for a snack is rather expensive, I don't think I am willing to treat my Apstos that well. Ok, maybe for their birthday .

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 27-Mar-2006 16:35Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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I've added a total of 8 shrimp to my tank since I started it.

3 Amanos/Yamatos
3 Ghosts
2 Cherries

The only ones I see right now on a regular basis are the Yamatos. I haven't seen a ghost shrimp in about a month so who knows. 1 Cherrie I removed to another tank and the other hasn't been spotted since I put them in. So there fate could have been old age, no3 levels or the became a meal.

My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 27-Mar-2006 19:59Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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tetra, have you ever seen your schooling fish pick on the shrimp, like the pencils or the cardinals?


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Post InfoPosted 27-Mar-2006 20:25Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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tetra, have you ever seen your schooling fish pick on the shrimp, like the pencils or the cardinals

I did see the cardinals go after a very small cherry shrimp, but they never made contact and might have thought it was a piece of food at first.



My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 27-Mar-2006 21:08Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Excellent Good to hear...


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Post InfoPosted 27-Mar-2006 21:20Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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K, means no shrimpsters for me then, I guess.

Sad news, unexpectetedly I had to put one of my female Rainbows down. This is the first loss in the tank ever since the Otos were added months ago (and some didn't make it, as expected).

I came down to the tank this afternoon (sick-have a cold or something) and saw her swimming on the surface. Whenever she hit the current of the spraybar she was swirled around in it, showing that she has no strength anymore. Also, what first appeared as nicer than usual coloration turned out to be scales sticking out - dropsy.

I have no idea what the reason is, there are two thoughts (actually 3 - I describe the third later)

- replanting during the last week was stressful on her
- I cleaned the filter and on restart a lot of gunk was washed from the hose into the water. Maybe it is bad for fish and she ate it.

Third thought: She looked different from the time I got her. While the other 2 have a straight line from the mouth to the dorsal fin, she had a bend in it. Maybe she was misformed and as such couldn't function properly. I never thought much of it, until now. In the picture (not new) below she is on top and another female below. Any info?

Attached Image:

The top one died



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Post InfoPosted 27-Mar-2006 23:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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LF,

Sorry to hear about your DNR. I about lost one of mine last week. I had the lid off doing some work on the tank and one decided that it was a good idea to jump out at me. So I grab it and throw it back in only to have it jump out on the back side of the tank. Not good! Lucky it didn't land in the tank below. It would have become a snack. I had to move my book case to get to the thing but it seemed to be doing find a couple of days later.

As for what happened to yours I am not going to get into it because I am really bad at that stuff. So I will leave it at sorry.

55G Planted tank thread
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[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 28-Mar-2006 01:48Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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- replanting during the last week was stressful on her
- I cleaned the filter and on restart a lot of gunk was washed from the hose into the water. Maybe it is bad for fish and she ate it.


I doubt it was anything you did, like the two things above. If these things did kill the fish then it was on it's way out anyway. Not my area of expertise, but the fish does look deformed, which is not that uncommon with any animal that reproduces in large numbers. Most deformed/mutated individuals don't survive as long as normal specimans, unless it's to it's advantage, but we don't need to get into the whole Darwin thing.

My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 28-Mar-2006 02:33Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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tetra,

Thats the one of the few Darwinian things I don't mind so much

LF,

Ater looking at your picture again. The top fish kind of looks like a he/she. It has the more pointy nose of a male and the color of a female. Maybe that was its cause of stress.

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19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 28-Mar-2006 03:36Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks tetratech and Wings for the input.

I am glad that I am not the only one who thinks that the shape of that fish was a little off, and Wings I had the same thought about the he/she thing, but I don't know if this is possible. I know that there are species with "males in hiding" that only show their true colors when they feel strong enough to compete with the other males (or alpha male), but I don't know it Rainbows are within that group. And even if so this should not have been a health issue then as it would be natural. I don't know.

Let's just hope that this is the last death for a while, nothing is more depressing in ones tank than fish death.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 28-Mar-2006 12:29Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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OK GANG, I need some Apstio Advice

It all started yesterday when I was going to feed the fish in the QT. Usually, tapping the food container on the glass brings them all together to the front, even the Apistos have learned that by now. But, no sign of the female. I looked (just looked, not rearranged) all over the tank and started to feed when she appeared, I don't know from where. She is more beautiful than ever and has an orange included in her yellow coat now. Then, after an appetizer of flakes, I went back to get the freeze dried Tubifex worms, and again she was not to be found . She came then out from behind one of the pieces of driftwood and after eating some worms dissapeared to that area again. I lurked around the side of the tank and saw her hush into a little cave in the wood.

The same happened ever since yesterday, whenever I approach the tank she cannot be seen, but she comes out to feed and then goes back there. The male is his usual, no changes at all. I removed the backcover, but my head is too big to fit in the gap between tank and wall. I used a small mirrow and a flashlight. I held the mirror in the tank and used the flashlight to see what is going on back there - Too deep of a cave and too dark.

Do I have eggs back there for sure? She is not in hiding because of stress as she looks sooooo good right now. I cannot go out and buy liquid fry food just based on assumption as I wouldn't know how much and when to feed.

Any ideas what is going on and what to do?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 29-Mar-2006 02:06Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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She might have eggs back there but cichlids can be wierd sometimes. My baby convicts either beg for food at the top of the tank or hide like they have never seen a big hairy faced balding stressed out soon to be married college kid before. The parents are the same way. Sometimes very personable others they act like they have never seen you before.

I wouldn't worry about feeding the fry right away if that is the case. They can normally fend for themselves really well for a while just on left over egg sack. If you do see some fry it might be worth getting some frozen baby brine shrimp to feed them though. My baby convits grew much faster than normal when I was feeding them that.

How is the male looking? No extra color or anything? Agression?

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Post InfoPosted 29-Mar-2006 04:10Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks Wings,
How is the male looking? No extra color or anything? Agression?
Fine, No, No.

This are the quick answers to your questions . This is what throws me off, as I would have assumed him to be more aggressive with eggs around. On the other hand, I read that it is the female that protects the edds/fry and the male is in charge of territory (which by the way is supposed to be larger than the 20G QT).

I will have to keep an eye open for any tiny fish that may stick its head out of the wood cave at some point. If they stay in the back of the cave then there is no way for me to tell.

Anyone has any idea of how long the incubation time for Apisto Eggs is?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 29-Mar-2006 11:54Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Anyone has any idea of how long the incubation time for Apisto Eggs is?

It's probably a few days, before they become wigglers. As someone mentioned they probably wouldn't need food for at least a few days after they hatch because they have the yolk sacs. Funny thing is my two rams have disappeared over the last few days, but there is so much density in the tank I'll probably never find the eggs and I can't go behind mine.

When my rams spawned the first time they laid the eggs on a piece of petrified wood and then they dug a borrow in the substrate and moved the egg/wigglers in there?





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Post InfoPosted 29-Mar-2006 14:10Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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LF,

No experience with apistos, but that sounds like pretty standard dwarf cichlid breeding behavior. There's no other reason for her to not come out and beg for food. They may eat the first batch themselves, it may take them a while to "Get it" I wouldn't go crazy about this batch... but I guess this is why when people breed them intentionally they just tanks without a lot of clutter so you can actually see and feed the fry etc.


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Post InfoPosted 29-Mar-2006 14:30Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks you two for the input

Yeah, I guess there is not much I can do than wait and see what will happen, but you know how it is.

I nearly broke my neck yesterday when trying to get a closer look into the cave .

Guess I will have to get the goggles out and take a head dive into the tank. I wonder what the fish would think about that .

Thanks again,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 29-Mar-2006 15:18Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I would get with tetra before you take your dive! He has the head gear you need!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 29-Mar-2006 15:23Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Someone call for the Fishgeek



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My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 29-Mar-2006 15:29Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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LF,

By the way, was the LFS you sold the espei to AF? I saw some very VERY healthy looking "tank raised" rasbora espei the other day...


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Post InfoPosted 29-Mar-2006 21:34Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Yup NowherMan6,

That may have been mine

Did ya buy any?

And tetratech - we (NowherMan6 and I) cannot afford such a sophisticated head-stander to do our dive chores .

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 29-Mar-2006 22:34Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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And tetratech - we (NowherMan6 and I) cannot afford such a sophisticated head-stander to do our dive chores

Yeah, I'm usually hired for only really big tanks:



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My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 29-Mar-2006 22:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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I about choked on my food!

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Post InfoPosted 30-Mar-2006 00:04Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Caption for this photo:

"While everyone else enjoyed a pleasant lunch, tetratech proceeded to stare off into the distance, snapping back into consciousness only to drink his saki through his special blue Fish Geek straw."


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Post InfoPosted 30-Mar-2006 00:30Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Feels like the good old days are back.

But you know, he was really there, he even visited the ADA site.

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Tetratech at ADA



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Post InfoPosted 30-Mar-2006 00:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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What is the ADA? It looks sweet!

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Post InfoPosted 30-Mar-2006 03:50Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Wow, now that you mention it LF, he seems to be popping up all over the place. Why, this evening I was looking through an old history textbook and I came across a picture with a familiar looking guy in it...

Wait, wait... oh my... is that... yes, yes it is! Tetra that's you! I didn't know you were one of Teddy Roosevelt's rough riders!!



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Post InfoPosted 30-Mar-2006 04:16Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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The caption to that picture read:

"Teddy Roosevelt's Rough Riders were also the first Unit to train in modern warfare, although Corporal Tetratech's goggles and snorkel didn't proof effective agains chemical agents, even when wearing them 24/7"


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Post InfoPosted 30-Mar-2006 11:55Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Man this is cracking me up, made my day.

Of course I couldn't resist

Caption ? -

"Darn, how does he get that Wallichii so pink?"



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Post InfoPosted 30-Mar-2006 14:58Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Yeah, I don't know if tetratech anticipated this when he started this section.

But he is looking pretty good for someone who seems to stick his head all the time in everybodies business, eh - tank.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 30-Mar-2006 15:03Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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OK, last one, I promise...

"LF introduces his new fish, the Dwarf Neon Tetratech"



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Post InfoPosted 30-Mar-2006 15:08Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Sadly it all came to end today for tetratech. After pursuing him for days, tetratech was arrested. The charges included breaking into Amano's house, stealing from ADA, impersonator a rough rider and wallichii abuse.
They are still looking for his accomplish LF, for his part in the dwarf neon tetratech fish scandal.





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Post InfoPosted 30-Mar-2006 16:10Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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Nice way to end it tetra! The funny part about that picture is the guy holding the vidio cammera. What kind of poilic training does that take? 1 dounut... 2 dounut aht aht ahh..

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Post InfoPosted 30-Mar-2006 18:49Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Ah, that was fun

Let's just hope tetratech will be released again soon

On the actual tank frontier:

Nothing much happened, it may be that a little algae growth can be observed, but not too much so far.

The female Apstio is still doing her hiding thing, but I just cannot peek into that cave.

We will see,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 30-Mar-2006 21:05Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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LF,

Do you have a close-up pic of the algae in question?


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Post InfoPosted 30-Mar-2006 21:10Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Not here, but it is basically more of the same than the one that eventually caused me to do the last major overhaul.

Small threads on plant leaves and the glass, none longer than maybe 1/2 an inch. And not too many yet.

It could be that I haven't really corrected the issue that I had - I upped the P dosage to 1/2tsp every other day as it must have been too low for a while.
It also could be that the attempt I made to scrub off existing algae from glass and wood caused it to settle somewhere else.

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Post InfoPosted 30-Mar-2006 21:15Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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They let me go as long as I never say anything bad about Petland Discounts again - yeah right

Anyway sorry to hear about the algae problems. Those protists are tough little hombres. Afterall they've been around for quite some time.

What's interesting is that I have my own little war with some BBA. It's actually growing on the inside of the glass diffusor right where the bubbles come out and my co2 is cranked. I also see some bba on the rar right back glass which is far away from dissusor, so I don't see the low co2 relationship in my tank anyway, it's just not that simple, not black and white.



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Post InfoPosted 30-Mar-2006 21:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Week 27 - Weekly Tank Update

This week the tank made me very frustrated. The algae is most certainly growing back, although I have upped the P now for 2 weeks straight to 1/2tsp 3 x a week and the Equilibrium to 1tsp per week. All other parameters stayed the same so I feel like I am at the end of my ideas. Makes me wonder if I should order a bunch of low light plants, shut off the second light row and the CO2, and live in peace from here on.

I ordered 4 diffusers, 2 3-coil and 2 8-coil, they should be here Tuesday and I will hook up one 8-coil under the spraybar, maybe that will help. Nevertheless, the problem that remains is the removal of existing algae which I cannot achieve by removing the hardware as I do not want to have another major overhaul at this time.

The plant order from last week is not doing too well, the crypts - as expected - show some melting, all stems of the Needle Leaf Ludgwigia rotted away and I had to remove all of them. My Star Grass on the other hand grows like mad and I had to remove the whole bunch and replant the tops.

Here is a picture from yesterday before the trimming:

Attached Image:

Week 27 - Before Trimming



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Post InfoPosted 02-Apr-2006 13:30Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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And here is a picture after the trimming and water change. Nothing else has change from the previous picture, except that I removed the dead stems of Needle Leaf Lugwigia:

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Week 27 - After Water Change and Trimming



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Post InfoPosted 02-Apr-2006 13:34Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Algae anyone?

The small group of crypts (pictured is a Wendtii), Wendtii, Lucens, and Lutea all look like this. They are located to the left of the big piece of wood, with the water flowing from right to left in that part of the tank. It may have gotten so bad because I tried to scrubb of some algae last week and the water flow blew it onto these plants. Or, it got it because the plants were moved and are unstable now.

But this is not the only plant, I see an increased on all my Anubias plants and the remaining Retrospiralis.

Attached Image:

Darn Algae



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Post InfoPosted 02-Apr-2006 13:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Fortunately,

There are still these guys here, although the female is not protecting her little cave anymore (false alarm or failure).

Here is the male parading the tank:

Attached Image:

Apisto viejita male



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Post InfoPosted 02-Apr-2006 13:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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And my beloved female. She sure has nice colors, I love the contrast of her basically yellow bodie and the black markings. The occasional red and blue sprinkle looks very nice as well.

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Apisto viejita female



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Post InfoPosted 02-Apr-2006 13:42Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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And because it is so nice, here a picture of the happy couple. When they "meet" in the tank there is always some "spine twisting" mutual attention thing going on. All fins are stretched out and the fish circle each other once or twice with bent backs. Then they swim off in different directions to keep on looking for food:

Attached Image:

Apisto viejita couple



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Post InfoPosted 02-Apr-2006 13:45Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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First thing I could say is that I'm glad you got those fish to take your mind off the algae. I guess there cheaper than taking another vacation.

Anyway, as the song says "where do we go from here".
Question?
Is the algae more prolific than it was before you reduced all that mass and added the driftwood? If the answer is yes than at least there is some cause and effect. Looking at your tank now I don't see alot of fast growing fert sucking plants other than the stargrass? In my tank I get alittle bba on the blyxa because it really doesn't grow all that much in the light I have.

I don't think your issue is with fert dosing. Your not doing anything that much different than Bensaf and me.


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Post InfoPosted 02-Apr-2006 17:31Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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I'm glad you got those fish to take your mind off the algae
And on top of this they are still in the QT, so I don't even have to look at the algae tank to see them

Thanks tetratech, I needed some encouragement. Yeah, the whole algae mess started after I added the driftwood, at least this form of algae. And you are absolutely right, I have only very few fast growing plants, there is the larger group of Star Grass and the groupings of Pearl Grass. I thought that the tank was at a stage where it doesn't require that many fast growers anymore, but either because of the major changes or because this phase would come much later (if ever) I am not there yet.

But what can I do? I am honestly sick of spending 8 hours to redo the tank every few weeks. I am getting seriously fed up with it. If EI works only if I have fast growers in there, what good is it for?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 02-Apr-2006 23:08Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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How much light are you running? How long? Maybe you should play the game of low light all day and a high light for only a couple of hours.



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Post InfoPosted 03-Apr-2006 00:49Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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EditedEdited by bensaf
But what can I do? I am honestly sick of spending 8 hours to redo the tank every few weeks. I am getting seriously fed up with it.

Personally I think that's part of your problem right there ! Too much changing and uprooting. As tetra said you are doing pretty much the same as us except for one thing, we rarely make big changes to our tanks. Add or remove a plant here and there but no major overhauls.


If EI works only if I have fast growers in there, what good is it for?

No it'll work for slow growers too. A couple of fast ones are a good check valve. But besides that I don't see the connection between fast growers and having to do big overhauls.
The fast growers just need to be trimmed, nothing major there. If they need to be uprooted for the trim , just vac around that area to remove anything that may have been kicked up and replant. No biggie.

But on more then one occasion you have pulled up every plant in the tank. I never never do that to a tank unless I'm tearing it down. If I want to make that big a change I do it gradually, pretty much move one group at a time. Takes longer to get the look you want but less problems in the long run.





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Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 03-Apr-2006 03:33Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
dan76
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i agree with bensaf, slow and steady wins the race. in my tank with the BBA i have nearly all off the plants and only the back and side walls to go. just keep getting rid of the badly affected leaves and you will eventually win

OH TOLEEDY!
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