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L# Freshwater Aquaria
 L# Planted Aquaria
  L# LITTLE_FISH 125G Log
   L# Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 175, 176, 177, 178, 179, 180
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SubscribeLITTLE_FISH 125G Log
TW
 
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Beautiful pictures of beautiful fish. I have serious camera envy & wish I could take pics like these.

Cheers
TW
Post InfoPosted 21-Jun-2006 00:21Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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TW,
Feel your pain with the camera issue. But some day soon things might change.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 21-Jun-2006 01:01Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Hey, no envy or jealousy please,

Or I send you some of my algae issues

Thank you very much for the comments on the pictures. I actually was hoping you would find the story (aka observation) at least to some degree interesting as well

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 21-Jun-2006 01:05Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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Of course the story was interesting & I hope the apisto decides to live & let live in peace. However, your pics can't help to tell the story, especially the one with both male & female apisto both facing off the rainbow shoal.

Cheers
TW
Post InfoPosted 21-Jun-2006 05:48Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Robyn,

I know, the words were only to carify the pictures, in case they didn't make any sense by themselves

Last night there was still the occasional stand-off with fins spread out by the male Apisto, but I have not seen any further physical contact between them. Also, everybody seems to still have all their eyes, a good thing. So I guess that means all is good.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 21-Jun-2006 10:24Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Weekly Tank Update - Week 39

Not much new to report on the tank for this week, I guess things are getting boring now. The only change was the addition of the 3 male Dwarf Neon Rainbows from the QT (yes, I know, even more fish in the tank), all of which are doing well.

There was no major trimming required and all I did was to prune off some of the leaves that had some algae on them (BBA is coming back slowly).

Here is the tank during the last two weeks, followed by a few fish shots and a hint on something (more later).

That was the tank after the last major trim 2 weeks ago

Attached Image:

2 Weeks Ago



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Post InfoPosted 25-Jun-2006 11:53Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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One week later, the Star Grass had grown a little and the Hygro group saw some more trimming as additional stems were removed so that they could help filling up the 40G.

Attached Image:

One Week Ago



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Post InfoPosted 25-Jun-2006 11:55Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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The only trimming done this weekend that was not algae related concerned the Wisteria. A few stems had to be cut because they were growing into the plants near by. These trimmings currently float in the 20G QT as the 40G seems to have enough plants in it.

Here is the tank now:

Attached Image:

Tank After Water Change This Weekend



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Post InfoPosted 25-Jun-2006 11:57Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Here is a shot of the Espei about 1 minute after the lights in the tank went on. Like almost all fish, they are pretty pale and it takes about 15 min before their bright orange returns. I find fish coloration an amazing thing, in particular when they can change colors at will (like the bar under the eye of the male Apisto):

Attached Image:

Espei in the Morning



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Post InfoPosted 25-Jun-2006 11:59Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Speaking of the Apisto, here is a shot of the male, just for the fun of it and because Robyn just recently got her Apistos (although they are a different species, but never the less somewhat related). He is, BTW, no longer chasing after the Rainbows, I assume they know by now that he is their boss. The only fish in the tank that doesn't think so is the male Pearl, he is completely unphased by the Apisto's prouncing.

Attached Image:

Male Apisto



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Post InfoPosted 25-Jun-2006 12:02Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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And speaking of the male Pearl, here is a group shot of male (on the left) and female Pearls, a rainbow peeking in, and the female Apisto telling all of them to leave her alone.

The male Pearl spends a good part of the day chasing the female Pearl through the tank. I doesn't look like he follows her, it's more like he want's her to go away. Nevertheless, she is always coming back to him. Love? I don't know.

Attached Image:

Group Shot



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Post InfoPosted 25-Jun-2006 12:05Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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And here is the tip (or whatever I wrote on the last page) that I was speaking about. Being the lazy bum that I am, I find the routine of cleaning the glass diffuser rather involved. Bathing the whole thing in a bleach solution, then rinsing it in a Prime solution, and then adding it back into the tank takes time and is to some degree a waste producer (bleach and conditioner down the drain).

Almost by chance, I tried the following:

Having my diffuser rather high up in the tank exposes the top part during water changes for about 15 to 30 min (I will have to time it some day). As soon as the top is in the open I swipe the water off it and drip Flourish Excel on it until it is covered (the area above the plate). And that is it - and what can I say, I haven't bleached the sucker in about 4 t 5 weeks now and it is still clean. You can see the difference from before adding Excel to 20 min later.

Maybe you want to give this method a try, it is better for the environment and seems to work well. I have not done it long enough to conclude that one never has to bleach again.

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Diffuser - New Cleaning Method



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Post InfoPosted 25-Jun-2006 12:13Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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I'm lazy too, so I'll try your tip at next waterchange.

Cheers
TW
Post InfoPosted 25-Jun-2006 13:51Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Good idea Robyn,

Let us know how (and if) it worked for you. Try to make sure that you remove as much tank water from the area above the plate as possible, then fill that area (should not be more than about 3ml)with Excel, and let it sit for a while (15 min should do). The advantage on my big tank that it takes at least that long from exposure to refill as so many gallons have to go out and back in.

You could also try to lift your diffuser a little higher for the procedure (to give the Excel more time to do its work without prolonging the water change itself), a complete removal should not be required.

Again, keep us posted,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 25-Jun-2006 14:08Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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I still think you guys should get an external reactor and forget about cleaning alltogether.



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Post InfoPosted 25-Jun-2006 16:33Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
FRANK
 
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Hi Matt,
I'm inclined to agree with you, especially when I purchased
a difuser for my 30G tank and the thing flopped. It was
rated for the 20G tank. It came with a suction cup
but the "glass bud" on the side of the difuser won't
slip on and hold the difuser in place. So I tried to
bury the delivery tube in gravel and prop the
difuser upright with a rock, but the tube kept working
up through the gravel. And the bubbles never did change
from one or two big bubbles into the bunches of micro
bubbles. The difuser is sitting in the box it came in.

I have thrown my internal reactor away. It demanded
even more cleaning than the difuser because it was inside
the tank (an eyesore that took up space) and was exposed
to the tank light, it would clog up with algae. To clean
the passages, I needed pipe cleaners, running water, and
lots of patience.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--
Post InfoPosted 25-Jun-2006 16:45Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Little Caesar
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hey!! i just happened to click on this 95th page and saw some pics a few posts ago of your tank. it looks really nice. i really like the yellowish fish with the black dorsal fin that is under your pearl gouramis. since i am not inclined to read 95 pages of posts (LOL), is there any way you can tell me what species that is, because I really like it. is it a dwarf cockatoo cichlid?

~*~ Caviar? no thanks! ~*~
Post InfoPosted 25-Jun-2006 20:27Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Here we go,

I am writing about this great method that I figured out on how to clean a diffuser environment friendly, and what do Matty and Frank do? - Tell me I should not use one

Well, I happen to be pretty happy with mine (in 2 tanks), they are cheap, easy to clean (with Excel ), and look pretty fashionable.

Anyway, thanks for the input to both of you, Matty - I know that you have this cool self-made inline reactor, but I have enough stuff behind the tank and I like the sound of a diffuser.

Little Caesar - Close on the guess of the fish. It is a female Apistogramma viejita II. She is a beauty, isn't she?

On a different note: Would you folks be so kind and look at my 20G Log in the Aquascaping Forum? I have something new there On Page 5. Also, I would appreciate if a Moderator or Administrator who may read this would be so nice and move that log (and please the 29G log at the same location) to this forum. I would really like to have all my logs over here in the Planted Forum, that is more where they belong to. Thanks in advance, to the mods for moving the stuff and anybody else who may add a comment to it.


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jun-2006 03:21Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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Anyway, thanks for the input to both of you, Matty - I know that you have this cool self-made inline reactor, but I have enough stuff behind the tank and I like the sound of a diffuser.


Ah LF, I know by now that you have settled on your method of choice, I just like to give you a hard time about it any chance I get. I'm glad you found an easier way of cleaning it, sounds like it makes them easier to use.



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Post InfoPosted 26-Jun-2006 04:17Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
FRANK
 
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Hi LF,
Your wish is my command... Your thread is moved.

I don't recall saying anything about not using the
difuser. I know you, Ben, and others, swear by them.
I cuss at mine. As you read, its never worked right,
won't stick to the side of the tank, and is residing
in a box in the garage. Too bad to, it was an
expensive little critter.

My reactor did not work out very well either. After
several years, I tired of cleaning it constantly. It
was very labor intensive. So I took a page from your
book and a couple of others and ran the CO2 output from
the bubble counter to the air intake port on my UGF power
head, stuck a deflector on the output of the power head
so the flow is directed downward into the tank and sat
back. The water flow breaks the bubbles into very tiny
ones (like the difuser should have) and the current is
strong enough that most of the bubbles don't reach the
surface. Nothing to clean, and it seems to be working
just fine.

I'm sorry you thought I was being critical or suggesting
that you stop using the difuser.

Frank

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jun-2006 07:05Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks Frank and Matty

Frank, no need to be sorry. As you can see, I have enough laughing smileys after the sentence where I was ranting about your response. It was a joke on my end (I think Matty got it ). And I knew Matty was just pulling my strings

Sorry to hear that your diffuser did not work as expected and has been expensive on top of it. Just like me, you nevertheless found a way that makes you happy, and that is what it is all about

And triple-thanks for moving my 20G log to this forum, it brings the family of my tanks closer together.

Now, the only one left outside this realm is my 29G log, but I am sure we can manage to get this one into the Planted Forum as well.

Thanks again,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jun-2006 13:23Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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EditedEdited by mattyboombatty
(I think Matty got it )


Got it - I just wanted to congratulate you on your method of cleaning after giving a sarcastic remark.



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Post InfoPosted 26-Jun-2006 16:58Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
Little Caesar
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sweet. thanks. yeah, she is really nice.

~*~ Caviar? no thanks! ~*~
Post InfoPosted 26-Jun-2006 21:14Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Glad I could help, Little Caesar

Tank wise, there is pretty much nothing to report, except maybe the fact that now, having stopped the Excel treatment for over 3 weeks, the BBA is certainly on its way back in, darn.

I know, I know, it has to do with my light, fishload, and whatnot, but I thought I just mention it.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 28-Jun-2006 16:50Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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LF,

Is the BBA limited to hardscape or is it growing on the plants as well?

My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 28-Jun-2006 23:18Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Tetratech,

The BBA is growing exclusively on the plants and mybe some parts of the wood. Mostly it occupies the egdes of my low growers, like some anubias, the java fern, and the isoetes.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 29-Jun-2006 15:28Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Weekly Tank Update - Week 40

The tank hasn't received much attention this week, partially because I was busy with work and partially because I am getting tired of the current setup. I am mostly spending my time with algae control and housing fast growers rather than having a scape that I could enjoy and shape.

Here is the tank after the last main trimming, 3 weeks ago:

Attached Image:

Tank 3 Weeks Ago



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Post InfoPosted 02-Jul-2006 13:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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I sure cannot complain about the speed with which my fast growers grow. But it seems like there is only one particular rythm to this tank - Fast growers up, trim, and so forth.

Here is the tank last weekend:

Attached Image:

Tank 1 Week Ago



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Post InfoPosted 02-Jul-2006 13:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Here is the tank now as it was yesterday before the trim. The Star Grass is all the way up and this actually creates a problem. The lower parts are soooo shaded that they have no light what so ever and rott/melt away. I am sure that this cannot be good for the water quality and may directly relate to algae problems.

Attached Image:

Before Trimming this Weekend



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Post InfoPosted 02-Jul-2006 13:43Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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LITTLE_FISH
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Then I trimmed away. I made one change though compared to earlier trimmings, I reduced the size of the Star Grass group and gave some of it to the Hygro group. This way I hope to reduce the amount of foul leaves over the growth period until the Star Grass is all tall again.

I may even remove the Star Grass all together or use it differently somewhere else in the tank.

Attached Image:

Tank Now



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Post InfoPosted 02-Jul-2006 13:46Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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On to some plant and fish detail shots.

Here is the Blyxa, or at least one of them. The plants haven't been floating up anymore, but they don't grow fast either. Instead, they are pretty much collecting quite a bit of gunk in them, which I can see when I hold the vacuum right over them. And, just like tetratech's they are all green now.

Attached Image:

Blyxa



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Post InfoPosted 02-Jul-2006 13:49Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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All still looks really nice in there though Ingo, but I guess I know what you mean, with my mainly wisteria tank being all about fast growers, trimming, but no great variety.

But for all that, I'd still be very proud to have a tank that looked like yours. You still have variety & little splashes or red & other colours here & there. Very nice.

Cheers
TW
Post InfoPosted 02-Jul-2006 13:50Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Here is a close-up of my Isoetes Lacustris. What appears to be nice air bubbles (from the water change) being produced by the plant are actually bubbles that are attached to the BBA that is yet again covering it. This simple plant is the worst infested one in the whole tank.

Attached Image:

Isoetes and BBA



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Post InfoPosted 02-Jul-2006 13:51Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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THANKS ROBYN

On to the fish, for Robyn, here is a close-up of the female (non-agressive) female. Half the time she is hiding somewhere in the thickets, but it is not because she is chased by the male. I simply think she likes it in there and that there are some nice snacks available.

Attached Image:

Female Apisto



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Post InfoPosted 02-Jul-2006 13:53Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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He, on the other hand, is mostly at home in the front of the tank, patrolling the substrate to see if any new goodies are avaiable, stalking them, and then go in for the kill.

Both are totally non agressive fish, neither to each other nor to anybody else in the tank.

Attached Image:

Male Apisto



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Post InfoPosted 02-Jul-2006 13:55Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Here is a nice shot (I think) of the male Pearl catching some air. The bubbles that you see around him are from the CO2 diffusion system that I have in place, a diffuser who's output is sucked into a small powerhead and redirected and even further cut up by it.

Attached Image:

Male Pearl



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Post InfoPosted 02-Jul-2006 13:57Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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The Rainbow group has found together for most of the time now, except for one of the 6 who prefers to be by himself for about half the day. I believe to identify him as a former leader who has lost his position to the leader of the last group that was added. He will get over it.

Attached Image:

Rainbows



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Post InfoPosted 02-Jul-2006 13:59Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Welcome to the world of the High-Tech Tank

I think someone who is know as "The Grandmaster" "Uncle Ben" "Black and Tan Man" said it best --- IT'S A LIFESTYLE

Planted tanks take work and regular attention. You have a large tank fully planted from end to end, yes it will require time to keep it looking good and algae free. My tank is smaller and I've only added stems to the main area. Yes the wisteria is a stem, but it's the easiest plant to trim. I haven't uprooted them yet (although that might happen soon)



My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 02-Jul-2006 14:00Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Last but not least, the final shot for this week belongs to the Espei.

Some of you know why this fish gets the honor of the prime last spot in the picture series, and they sure deserve the special attention.

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Espei



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TW
 
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here is a close-up of the female (non-agressive) female
Ahh, now you're just rubbing it in

Cheers
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IT'S A LIFESTYLE
I don't mind the lifestyle of messing with the tank on a weekly base (well known fact that I cannot stop to mess with tanks, ), but I would rather enjoy messing with it to make it prettier rather than controlling algae (I know the issues at hand, just making a statement, we don't have to go through them again).
now you're just rubbing it in
Me , noooooo

Ingo


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Yes the wisteria is a stem, but it's the easiest plant to trim. I haven't uprooted them yet (although that might happen soon)
Good luck when you do that! They are a very well rooted plant when crawling. I think its a hygro thing. My giant is just as bad but it doesn't crawl.

LF,
Tank and fish shots are great as normal. I really like your Apistos but I might get my hands on something from africa that will blow your mind.

55G Planted tank thread
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[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
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Wingsdlc
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Well I guess I will let the cat out of the bag.
http://www.malawicichlidhomepage.com/other/cyprichromis_paracyprichromis.html
5th picture down... I am throwing this plan out though. They will not like my low Ph. Sweet fish though...

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LITTLE_FISH
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Wings,

Thanks for the compliments on the tank and such.

About the fish you may get:
Yes, it did blow my mind, but for a different reason. A Tanganyika fish in a planted tank? Wouldn't your parameters be way off from the requirements of that fish, like the high ph and O2 that it prefers? Have you looked at the food this fish needs? Overall, that sounds like trouble to me.

Ingo


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Wingsdlc
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I am throwing this plan out though. They will not like my low Ph. Sweet fish though...


One of my coworkers was trying to get me to buy them. So I looked into it and realized that it wouldn't be a good idea for a number of reasons:

1. Ph is way too low
2. Too big of water changes
3. High CO2 count and probably too low of a O2 count
4. High Nitrate levels

Too bad....

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[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
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Weekly Tank Updates - Week 41

There is again not too much to report on this tank for this week, all is the same. The fast growers are growing, and so is the algae

I only perfromed a little pruning this weekend, mostly to remove heavily BBA infested leaves, but not too many. All fish seem to be doing fine, at least almost all of the purchased ones are accounted for.

Deep in my head I am already planning a re-design of this tank, although I know that you folks would probably not support that idea (we know what messes my over-hauls created).

Just a few shot for the week, here is the tank last weekend (for comparison reasons):

Attached Image:

Last Week



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And here it is last night. As you can see, the Hygro is growing quite a bit again, and so is the overhanging Ludwigia. The Star Grass is coming back too, I trimmed two stems of that were too tall in comparison to the rest of the group. When I "style" the 40G I will remove the Narrow Leaf Java Fern from this tank as it will serve as a main group in the other tank:

Attached Image:

This Weekend



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The whole right half of the tank doesn't look anything

It is a grouping of plants that are desired in the tank but with which I currently don't know what to do. This image is a sample of what I mean, all kinds of plants in random spots, no system, no visual appeal, they are just there. It has to change!

Attached Image:

Boring



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I will post a series of Oto shots in the 40G log, but I was able to capture one the Otos in this tank as well. Rarely do I see them all, the last time was probably a few weeks back. I was lucky enough to count 5 of the 6 today.

When Otos eat of the glass it always seems as if they are singing a song (from an opera) to the bystanders.

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Oto



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Here is a 3 shot journey into the Ludwigia shadowed gardens on the left side of the tank. This area is a favorite hang-out for all fish of the tank, just look at the last full shot and you will see about 90% of all fish in that area.

Attached Image:

Left Side I



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This stage of the Ludwigia growth is the nicest, but soon it will become too long and start to shade the Star Grass to its right. I love it when the roots hand down over the Anubias field and the fish take shelter in between.

Also, note at least 3 Anubia flowers

Attached Image:

Left Side II



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Last picture for now, an even closer look into the "cave". Center stage takes the female Apisto, also visible in the last two shots (and so was the male).

All the pearling is post water change related, and occurs mostly on the hair algae

Thanks for checking in,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Left Side III



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TW
 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
As always, love looking at your pics.

Cheers
TW
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Wingsdlc
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LF,
You really have a Jungle again. Just take it easy when you start to redo things.

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[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
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Thanks for the input

Wings - it is not really a jungle yet, compared to the jungle it once was when I still had Rock Valley. The plants on the right half are actually far enough apart from each other so that light can reach all the way down to the substrate.
Just take it easy when you start to redo things
- Well, I will see what I can do, but I cannot promise anything. In any way, nothing will happen really soon.

Thanks to the two of you again,

Ingo


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tetratech
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LF,
Give yourself a break.

I mean your doing a great job scaping the other tanks, why not use this as a grow out tank and you could put all your new plants in it.

Eventually something will come to you and you'll probably scape this the way you want it. Maybe you have "Scaper's Block" It's going around I hear.

My Scapes
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Give yourself a break.
Hey, remember - IT'S A LIFESTYLE



Yeah, I will use this tank as a growout tank, that's why I purchased this 125G . Plus, using this tank as a temp storage for plants seems like a bad idea, as I would easily spread hair algae all over my tanks.

See tetratech, I don't think I have a "Scaper's Block" right now, probably the opposite is true. Having created 2 rather nice looking tanks in the last 2 weeks (20 and 29), I feel inspired. Unfortunaltely, I have messed this one up so badly than all but an over-haul would be unsuccessful. But as I said, I am not in a rush, I just try to come to terms with myself if an over-haul is a desired goal.

Thanks tetratech for the well-meaning suggestions, keep them coming ,

Ingo


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tetratech
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Geez just a suggestion .
I don't mean a forever growout tank, just for a while.
Sometimes taking a break from something you see "The forest from the trees" again.

Yes your "little" tanks look quite nice. Maybe we should call you Little_Scaper

My Scapes
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I hear you on the "forest for the trees thing. I believe I have noticed that I got too carried away with details and in that process didn't see that the tank as a whole made less and less sense (style wise, not in general).

Right now, I guess the tank is a growout tank, as this is all what the plants in there do, grow - and then come out - because of algae cover

BTW, does anyone know what the stars in my status mean?
**** Ultimate Fish Guru * - I for sure am clueless as to where they came from.

Ingo


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NowherMan6
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Personally, LF, I think this is the nicest your tank has looked. It's no longer stem plant central, there's some long-term viability there. Such a long tank is difficult to scape, and invariably you wind up with a few different tanks within it, it's hard to be cohesive. I've even seen it in some of Amano's work. I like it as it is, lush, colorful and clear. very well done, and great pics as always

Maybe we should call you Little_Scaper


I like it!


Back in the saddle!
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LITTLE_FISH
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Oh NowherMan6,

That are very kind words you write there, I appreciate it .

Actually though, the tank is still Stem-Plant-Central, with I would assume about 80% covered with Wisteria, Star Grass, Hyrgo, Ludwigia, and Pearl Grass - all stems.

Little_Scaper - hm, not too bad, although I am LITTLE_FISH for my preference of small fish. So how would that translate into Little_Scaper? Small Plants? Or only a little part of the tank is actually scaped

Ingo


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mattyboombatty
 
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I think they feel bad for you not having any quiz stars, so they give you some for having a billion posts.

I kinda like the haphazard scaping over on the right side. It's kind of more natural in some regards.



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Post InfoPosted 10-Jul-2006 00:49Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
You really have a Jungle again.
Noooo, I always think it looks nice. If I were a little fish, I'd like to live in such a tank. I think there is a place in this world for highly scaped tanks & as well as other tanks, that have been scaped such as this one, but trick us into thinking it is just a natural bunch of plants. You have several tanks, so you can create several looks - this is just be a different look.

A very nice look, I think.

I don't know why you're unhappy with it (except if algae is a problem, but you can't see that in the pics).

Cheers
TW
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I think they feel bad for you not having any quiz stars


What do you mean? I am sure you didn't even notice that you have yellow CO2 tubing, as you are obviously blind

Go count them

haphazard scaping over on the right side ... but trick us into thinking it is just a natural bunch of plants
That all would be good, if it had been created at least somewhat intentional. I stated from the beginning that this tank should not be a highlight in scape but also fish intensive, but I didn't mean no style either . But thanks for letting me know that the scape is not all that bad .

Ingo


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mattyboombatty
 
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EditedEdited by mattyboombatty
What do you mean? I am sure you didn't even notice that you have yellow CO2 tubing, as you are obviously blind


Oh man....that WAS bad. My observational skills are obviously lacking. I seriously looked over there when you commented on your title, and didn't see the stars.... . I even remember when you got all 10 stars. Hey, at least I got the number of posts right...

Sorry 'bout that LF....I think your stars were in stealth mode at the time

EDIT: multiple typos...



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You must have had your mind focussed on the new tank setup, I understand that completely.

No problem Matty, we are all friends here
But don't do it again or I will send some of my BBA your way .

Have fun,

Ingo


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Please no...not the dread BBA



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I really like the occasional sprig of red teleranthera amidst the grassy crypts (if that's what they are). I think the tank looks lovely.

Hoping that there must be a word for everything I mean...
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EditedEdited by FRANK
Hi,
As far as the stars are concerned, they are out of
"balance."
Someone (not I) typed ***Ultimate Fish Guru***
and there are not enough spaces in that field so it is
lopsided. Drop a note to Adam or Lindy or Babel and see
if one of them can stop your listing to one side.

Frank

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Thanks illustrae for the input, I appreciate it. I like the color of the Alternanthera as well, but its placement is wherever I had space left in the tank. I guess sometimes "Chance" is a better designer than I am

Thanks Frank for trying to explain the **** Ultimate Fish Guru *, but I am seeing the same in the page's source, and in my Profile when viewed directly as I see it and as anybody else can see it. I think this must have some secret meaning that I cannot identify.

Thanks to both,

Ingo




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EditedEdited by bensaf
The current scape is very flat and has little to no depth. The ingredients are all there but you mis read the recipe somewhere along the line.

Some general pointers.

Don’t be afraid of empty space or gaps. The voids have their own dynamism. An example of this would be the H.Augustifolia and the Stargrass. Both nice plants but they are almost identical color and at present are just blending into one another, effectively canceling each other out in term of visual impact. Just have a big enough empty space between the two would go a long away to solve this. Or by using a plant of a different color in between will achieve the same effect. The ludwigia for example would be ok between these 2.

Build a skeleton that you can then flesh out. But the bones and structure should still be visible. The wood and rocks are hidden at the moment so the structure is gone. Bring the rocks forward and use them as a pedestal that the wood can sit on. Be careful what is planted in front and around this structure so as it doesn’t become overgrown and obscured again. Anubias in the gaps between rocks and wood. Ferns to decorate the wood. Only use plants that will stay at a size that will remain manageable in front of the structure. Blyxa is ideal. It’s just used in dabs to highlight the rocks and the plant looks better with the dark backdrop of wood or rock.

Some plants are only effective when solitary. Grassy plants like the Sag, Cyperus, Isoetes are nice but if they are used against a background of green stems they simply disappear. Use them in areas where there is nothing else green around. Use as highlight to rock or wood, or simply have them against a black background. Use as fillers at the side or popping out behind dark crypts or peeping from behind rocks etc. The important thing is that they are visible for what they are – at the moment they are invisible.

Some plants look better when they are half hidden. A lot of plants look there best when they are poking out from behind something. Not all are stars. They don’t have to be out there on show. Their main function should simply be to show off other plants or create a backdrop for hardscape. Wisteria is a good example it can be mould around the lines of other plants or hardscape to show them off more effectively. A lot of Crypts especially bigger Wentdiis look good just poking out of somewhere.

A big showpiece plant works well in a tank your size and work around that like you would hardscape.

Grouping of stem plants is important. Different shapes, textures and colors, don’t place them randomly, think what would look good next to what so as they can highlight one another and thereby increase the individual appeal. Don’t be afraid to put one species of stem plant right in front of another, as long as they differ in color or texture and you keep the height of the front one low enough, they complement one another rather then obscure, of such things depth are made.

You’ve got all the necessary bits and pieces in places, they just need to be used to maximum effect.



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Bensaf,

Thanks for the detailed list of suggestions. I am aware of almost all the things you said, but I am worried about a re-do at this point (more algae? ).

There is no way to make this tank look nice (not just nicer, but nice) without ripping it apart first. You cannot simply take parts of it and plant them more structured, there is a natural chain reaction that has to be considered (what you remove from one spot and plant in another will conclude in other plants having to be moved as well, not to mention the hardscape).

I am really not too frustrated with the tank, but given that all other tanks currently are looking better and better, this one is the black sheep in the tank family

Thanks again, I will keep your suggestions in mind during the next redo. I also will have to fit a mother Barteri somewhere in there, as I ordered the plants for the 40G (see log entry) and couldn't resist on this one

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 11-Jul-2006 14:55Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Ok,

Finally I made it home, and when checking on my tanks I saw that this one has a new flower (actuall 2). The Star Grass is doing me the honor this time. As it is not natural for this plant to have submersed flowers (at least from what I know), I have to assume that the buds started to form when the top was all the way up at the surface before the last trimming, a week and a half ago. I assume it kept on growing after the trim.

Sorry about the bad quality, but here it is:

Attached Image:

Star Grass Flowers



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Well, and while I was having the camera out allready anyway, I decided to take a few more shots.

And here is yet another new Anubias flower, tell me if you have seen enough of them by now and I will stop posting them (or not ).

Attached Image:

Anubias Flower



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And I thought that while I am bothering you with the 397th image of an Anubias Flower, why not add the 467th image of an Oto, just to complete the list

Here he is, munching away on some algae covered piece of wood. No food shortage there:

Attached Image:

Oto Eating



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And to round it out, another 3 shots of the Apistos, this time both in all shots.

Tonight they had a few close encounters, here is the first one of many:

Attached Image:

Apisto Pair I



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Here is a near head-on collision between the two. I know that it is not meant as a thread by either or as the male has the black eye bar "hidden", unlike when he shows off towards other fish or me:

Attached Image:

Apisto Pair II



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Last but not least, another close encounter. I think that they truely begin to like each other, otherwise this would be too close for comfort.

I wonder what the male is saying to the female in this picture

Attached Image:

Apisto Pair III



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LF,
Very nice pictures as always. I really like the one of the Oto. It shows both your great photo skills and your super skills at growing algae. (please no threats of sending some my way as I have green spot that is driving me nuts!)

Sorry about opening up a large can of worms with the comment about your jungle. You seem to have a lot on your plate with work and 4 planted tanks. They are not like the "normal" tanks people have in terms of matinance. Thou with opening up that can I got some good ideas for my tank from Ben. I guess it was not all for the worse.

55G Planted tank thread
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tetratech
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Wow, LF congrats on the Stargrass flower. Will the flower open submersed. I believe they are a light shade of blue.


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bensaf
 
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Don't what you are putting in your water to get so many plants to flower.

3 years, a ton of Anubias and not one flower


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Wingsdlc
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Ben you have never had an Anubias flower? I have only had one but I am sure it will again sometime. Unless I happened to cut that chunk off the other day.



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tetratech
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LF, I'll trade you some pearls for some flowers. We are such men.

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That's a really nice set of pics. Especially those apistos, they are a great looking pair - they really look settled in and happy now. The flowers on the stargrass is really interesting, I've never had a stem plant flower. A couple of anubias, but never stems.



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NowherMan6
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I've had many anubias as well, not one flower. As a matter of fact, sometimes I'd get them with flowers and as soon as I'd put them in the tank, the flower looked at me, looked around the tank, then promptly died. Stupid stuck up flowers, think they're so great...

That female pisto is just gorgeous. At least you know your WQ is top notch, I've never seen a female apisto color up so much. Are you sure you're not using Photoshop? or maybe it's just those punchy Canon colors


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So while we are talking about flowers. Being men and call....

I have an Aponogeton crispus flower in my tank right now (yes I know they are not hard to flower). I really like their flowers. I think the wife will too! Might have to add a few more of these guys in the tank...

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Wings,

I could dig out my old photos of the Apon flowers

Thanks all for the, at least indirect, compliments on my flowers, at least one thing I superseed Bensaf .

Tetratech - me and modifying pictures in Photoshop?



I prefer to show the real thing, for better or worse (just look at my lovely algae shots over the last 43 weeks).

Ingo


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Weekly Tank Update - Week 42

Not much at all has happened during this week to the tank, besides feeding and fertilizing. I was a little pre-occupied with the 40G, putting all these plants in that tank and what not.

Plant and algae growth in this tank seem normal, fish seem to be swimming around normal as well, so all is status quo. I will soon have to unload some Espei, either by selling them or by putting about 20 in the 40G.

Here are a few (only 4 this weekend) shots of the tank over the last 2 weeks.

This one shows the tank 2 weeks ago after the last major trimming:

Attached Image:

2 Weeks ago



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A week later, so last weekend, the Ludwigia on the left had reached its prime, spanning a bridge over the Anubias group all the way to the Star Grass. That, in turn, had grown a little, as well as the Hygro on the right.

Attached Image:

Last Week



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Here is a shot from this weekend before some trimming took place. The Ludwigia became too big and started to shade the Star Grass and other plants.

Ignore the huge amount of floating Hygro on the right. These were the stems that I removed from the 40G during the mid-week replant. I was somehow envisioning that I can add them into this tank, but without a major change this could not be accomplished. In the end, I disposed of them.

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Before Trim, This Weekend



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And lastly, here is the tank after the trim, the way it looks now.

Mostly, you will notice that the Ludwigia bush is gone, albeit small stems are replanted in that area and will eventually come back into view.

The Hygro has reached a height that means for me that it will require trimming soon, most likely next weekend.

I also trimmed the Pearl Grass group on the right, as well as the few stems of Alternanthera in it, and I replanted one of the Green Wendtiis that was getting almost no light anymore and died down to 2 leaves from a group that once was maybe around 20 leaves.

That is it for now,

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Tank Now



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tetratech
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LF,
You have a very large long tank, certainly not the easiest to bring together. Although you added the wood I think you need more hardscape to show depth and defintion. Why not add some pretty big size rocks jutting out in the left-mid and right mid areas. This will give the plants more definition and separation from each other and at the same time you could probably remove some of the plants to reduce maintenance somewhat.

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I hear you tetratech,

My vision (albeit we know how well that one translates into a real tank ) for this tank is by now so far off from the actual layout that it would be an almost complete overhaul.

To give you an idea:

I see the right back side planted tall, maybe with a larger dense group of Hygro Angustifolia. Around it is an assembly of Anubias, slowly declining in height. The driftwood branches are sticking out of this combination. This section, with maybe one more plant as an accent, is about a third of the tank. The rest of the tank would be planted much lower, with maybe rocks as mountains, but not too high.

Somewhere along that line is how I would like the tank to be.

Ingo


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Ok,

The first step towards a more plant friendly environment has been taken as I was at the LFS and arranged the selling of about 35 Espei for this coming week. That should make the water column a little leaner, when it comes to waste.

Now all I have to do is find a day when I will find the time and patience to catch these speedsters, last time it took me about 1.5 hours to catch 28 of them.

I may use the small store credit to purchase a pair of Triple-Red Apisto cacatuoides for the 40G. Any thoughts on that?

Ingo


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NowherMan6
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LF,

Re: the Espei, why not buy one of those big wide nets used for catching larger fish? Just hold it in one spot and corral the little guys into it.

As for the apistos, very nice idea. For my next big tank I'm going to set up an apisto haven of sorts, so I've been doing a ton of research on them. Cacs are harem breeders, not naturally pair breeders like rams and certain other apistos like borelli. I'm sure they work just fine as pairs because that's how they're sold sometimes, but it may be neat to purchase say, 3-4 females and one male. You'll get to see more natural apisto behavior out of them, with the females defending their territory and their fry, and the male bouncing around and strutting his stuff. Anyway, that's what I'm going to do. See that? I'm spilling the beans on my big tank designs, giving away my ideas, all to help a friend out!

p.s. Finally saw your article, great job!


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Post InfoPosted 17-Jul-2006 20:14Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks NowherMan6,

For the info on the Apistos and the comment on the Article.

Yeah, these particular ones are sold as a pair, finding additional females would be harder.

Having a big net was a consideration, but I got a little worried that I may rip out half my plants in the process. I may refer to it anyway, in particular if it takes me .5 hours to catch even one of these little buggers.

Thanks again,

Ingo


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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
I may use the small store credit to purchase a pair of Triple-Red Apisto cacatuoides for the 40G. Any thoughts on that?
Well, you know I have a pair & they are my "married couple". They show no aggression to anyone else or each other, although when they had eggs, they worked as a team guarding them. I think they are pretty too, even my girl is pretty. I recommend them as nice, easy apistos - particularly when you compare them to my other apistos, who continue to give me low level worry.

I say a pair should work well.

Cheers
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Thanks Robyn,

That is what my research into these specific Apistos showed as well, they are the perfect entry Apisto, easy to breed, easy tank mates, but maybe a little on the shy side (that will have to be seen).

I don't even know if they are available right now, but I am not in a rush anyway. I still have to find the time to get the Espei out first, between work, a dinner date with my daughter, another one with my wife, and all the other things in life, this will be a challenge for this week.

Ingo


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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
maybe a little on the shy side
Don't know if mine are typical or not, but they're not shy. They come to the front of the tank whenever I approach, as they know I mean food. As I like looking at them A LOT, they are sometimes disappointed, as it's not always dinner time when I'm there peeking in - but, they always come

Cheers
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Well,

I am having a problem

Last night we had a major storm coming through and the power went out. This morning, when the sun came out, I could see the extent of the damage. The whole part of the town I live in has loads of trees fallen over or broken off, 50% of the roads are blocked, in short - it looks like a war zone.

I am not expecting the power to come back on soon, our own power line has at least 5 trees on it, and that is only for the area of maybe 15 houses, I couldn't further investigate as I had to go to work (that's where I am right now).

So, to sum it up, I got no filtration on my tanks, no pumps, no nothing. I guess the tank get a black-out of a not-so-gentle kind

Ingo


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tetratech
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Sorry to hear the LF? I really hope your power comes on soon, but if it doesn't what is your plan?

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Post InfoPosted 19-Jul-2006 13:32Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks tetratech,

I have no plan. I have a single battery powered air pump at home that I could fire up and rotate through the tanks. This cannot start until I come home from work, whenever that is.

In any case, very frustrating

Ingo


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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Ooh no, sorry Ingo. I know how worried you must be about that. I remember earlier this year, we had a blackout, which luckily only lasted a couple of hours. It was caused by a simple fault that the electricity people could attend to quickly, but that does not sound at all like your situation. Even though it was not for long, I was very worried at the time. I hope your power is not too delayed. I'm glad too, that it seems no tree actually fell on your house, car or family, so that would have been even worse. I guess it's quite likely that if many trees are down, that may have happened to some families.

Good luck with it all. Fingers & toes are all crossed that your electricity people get it fixed quickly for you.

Cheers
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Thanks Robyn,

The wife just called and the latest prediction is that, if we would be really lucky, we would have power again late tonight, so pretty much 24 hour after it went out. More likely though is that it may come back on sometime tomorrow, going then towards 48 hours. Darn

Yes, luckily nobody on our street seems to have gotten hurt directly, almost like a miracle most trees fell between houses and onto streets and yards. I am sure that some houses have been damaged to some degree, but none has been demolished.

I will try to get home early to hook up the air pump, but as you may know I am really busy at work as well.

Ingo


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EditedEdited by tetratech
Yes, luckily nobody on our street seems to have gotten hurt directly, almost like a miracle most trees fell between houses and onto streets and yards. I am sure that some houses have been damaged to some degree, but none has been demolished.

Glad to hear it. We caught some of the storm, but nothing major. Had some of my deck furniture tossed around and lot's of leaves in the pool. Is it me or does there some to be much more devasting storms lately. There's was just a tsunami in Jakata (Bensaf's Home) and over 500 people died.




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Post InfoPosted 19-Jul-2006 15:33Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I think the weather is crazy lately, what with your storms, the tsunami(s), our news telling us today that at least some parts of US are going through a major heat wave, Sydney went through a major heat wave earlier this year & about 84% of the state I live in (NSW) is in a drought situation. Our dam capacity is well down & we have had water restrictions for a couple of years (I feel guitly about my 50% water change, when I think about our farmers).

I hope you are really lucky & get power tonight, otherwise, is it cold showers at the LF residence tonight - or do you have gas hot water & cooking?

Cheers
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LF,
What ever happened with your Stargrass flowers?

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LOL,

Well - this question for sure caught me by surprise

I am wondering if my fish are dying right now and you ask about the flower.

Anyway - It withered away one day later, the flower stem hanging off the side. I assume I only had a flower stem in the first place because the whole plant top was on the surface and that was when it formed. After I trimmed and replanted, the whole thing was submersed and the flower for sure did not like that.

Ingo

STILL NO POWER


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tetratech
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I am wondering if my fish are dying right now and you ask about the flower.
Sorry for what appears as my insensitivy, but when you said you might have power tonite, it turned from major to minor problem (in my mind anyway). I know how frustating it is, cause I've lost power for only a few hours and was really annoyed. If it goes any longer I would do at least a 20% WC on all your tanks.



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Eek! I hope everybody makes it Ingo. I'm sure the tanks will bounce back quick after the power comes back on. At least you don't have a reef tank. If power went out at my place I'd be blowing bubbles with a straw in my reef tank if I had to.



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Post InfoPosted 19-Jul-2006 20:46Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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There's was just a tsunami in Jakata (Bensaf's Home) and over 500 people died.


Funny you should mention that, I was just about to make a post about it.

It's been a bit weird, two quakes in the space of a week. I'd pretty much gotten used to them. Strange but you can sense them just before they hit, sudden nausea in the pit of the stomach and dizziness then you realize the room is shaking

But last nights was the biggest I felt yet, also the closest to hit, lots of screaming in the apartment building, including my wife - she near bowled me over in her rush to wrap herself around my neck !

Funnily the first sign that the quake is going on is the tank water sloshing and spilling over the edge (creepily the fish all stop swimming ). Lost one neon in the desk tank, thought being in a small glass box under a big lump of driftwood was not the safest place to be, and like my wife decided to run for it, he jumped and ended up on the carpet. It was a choice of calming the wife or saving the fish The wife won......just

A least I know the hardscape is solid, not a single branch shifted place ! All's well that end's well

Anyway LF, I think things will be fine. This is where having a planted tank comes into it's own. You have a natural filter in place and an oxidisor. Shouldn't be a major problem.


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Post InfoPosted 20-Jul-2006 04:20Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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LF, what's the lighting situation. Hopefully your back in business by now.

Anyway LF, I think things will be fine. This is where having a planted tank comes into it's own. You have a natural filter in place and an oxidisor. Shouldn't be a major problem.

That is true. I accidently turned my filter off on two seperate occasions and all was fine the next day. Even if you go a few days I think you'll be fine LF. Especially in a large heavily planted tank what is the canister really doing besides flow. It's picking up some solid waste, etc, but if you don't have any huge fish you probably wouldn't even notice the difference if the cansister was replaced with a powerhead.

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but if you don't have any huge fish you probably wouldn't even notice the difference if the cansister was replaced with a powerhead.


This comes from the guy who says that LF might not have enough biofiltration to handle the amount of waste from the espei, making his algae problems. Besides, I'm not too sure what the plants are going to be doing while the lights are out(no photosynthesis = no oxygen). At least they are probably covered in beneficial bacteria. That will help. I still think everything will be fine, but not because of the plants in particular.



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Well,

Thursday morning, and no power in sight

Our whole side of the street looks just like it did 2 days ago, with all trees and branches all over the power lines etc.

In my backyard, behind the garage, a tree from the neighbors behind us, I would guess with a diameter of about 2 to 3 feet, is lying across the main power line, and so are many others all over the place in my town.

The current prediction is that, if we get lucky, the power will be on by 4PM today, but given that nothing has changed in 2 days I doubt that.

Anyway - I went home early yesterday and we rushed to Home Depot (a hardware chain) and I bought a generator. It took me over an hour to set up that sucker, but eventually I had it running (on gasoline) and managed to hook up all filters in my 4 tanks. I let it run for 4 hours before I had to turn it off, the wife started to complain about the funes (hey - what are some funes compared to my fishes lifes ). She prominsed me that she will turn it back on today at 9AM, but I have my doubts that she actually will do that (let's just say that the argument about funes or fish lifes didn't end on a nice note, but I gave in anyways).

That's where we are now,

Ingo


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So have you already gone 48hrs with no power - that's too bad. I'm sure your wife will turn generator on, if she promised too. Maybe she just wants the kids out of the house & at school, before the fumes start up - or do you still have little ones at home?

How do your fish seem. Are they still acting normal. Is it warm enough there at the moment that your heaters aren't really needed? I know in my summer, I didn't really need heaters at all. They never turned on, as the room was always warm enough.

Anyway, continuing to cross all fingers & toes.


Cheers
TW
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Were you running the generators indoors? I would be afraid that Carbon Monoxide would build up in the basement. Set it up out side or in a vented area and run an extension cord.

No sense killing your self to save the fish.

My family has a generator for hurricanes they run it on the back porch with extension cords coming in the back door.

Good luck with the power situation. We're crossing our fingers for you!

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Post InfoPosted 20-Jul-2006 13:51Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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I am with rick on the generator thing. They are ment for outdoors.

A while back when I was in my first year of high school we lost power for at least a week. Living in the sticks this ment that we did not have any water either because we had a well. If it wouldn't have been for the gas grill we would have starved. I swear my mom can make anything on that thing! As for the fish I was keeping at the time. I think they were fine. I kept them in the basement so they stayed dark thus keeping them dorment.

Best wishes LF. I know that its not fun to have no power.

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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Sounds like if you can run it from outside, you, the fish & your wife will be happy - the fumes will be outside, bothering no-one. But, I can't help thinking that if you could have done that, you already would have, and that maybe, for some reason in your situation, it's not possible?

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TW
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Hi,
If you haven't already, get a 100 ft extension cord, and
one power strip (like for computers, etc.) place the
generator outside and run the cord through a window.
Use old towels in a layer across the sill and close the
window down onto the cord. The towels will mold around the
cord and "seal" the window keeping out the bugs etc.
Hook up the filters and lights to the strip(s) and crank
the generator up. You just have to keep an eye on the
fuel once in a while.

Frank


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Post InfoPosted 20-Jul-2006 14:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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LF,
Glad you got your hands on a generator. I would keep doing daily water refreshing anyway to keep things fresh and oxygenated.

This comes from the guy who says that LF might not have enough biofiltration to handle the amount of waste from the espei, making his algae problems

O.K. how do I talk my way out of this one

What I meant was in a big tank isn't the primary "biological" and yes overall filteration the plants and substrate not the canister. Isn't that the case in salt too "live rock and live sand", but if there are big fish present you need mechanical to get that out of the water as well as the big food you feed those fish that goes uneaten. I do think if LF had a bigger filter, when I say bigger I mean bigger in terms of more water volume it would help, but the one canister I don't think is doing all that much in terms of biological when compared to what's inside the tank.

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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH


Of course it runs outdoors, you sillies

It just happen that you have to keep the door a notch open so the power cord can run into the house. Also, I have to have the generator in a position that is not favorable with regards to the winds, and although I point the exhaust outlet away from the house the wind occasionally blows it back towards it.

Kids are in day camp, so they will be far away from the fumes during the day. The temperature here was about 98F before the storm hit 2 days ago, the next day it was in the upper 80s. Last night, around 8PM, the temp inside the house was 84F (that is exactly 30C). The basement is a little cooler, but overall I for sure do not need the heaters in the tank. I unplugged all electrical equipment to the tanks, partially because I needed the extension cords to hook up to the main power cord from the generator, and partially to avoid anything starting up uncontrolled if the power should come back on while I am not at home.

Ingo

EDIT: Frank and tetratech - didn't see your entries until now. Yeah - I will have to work on moving the generator further away from the house, but there are 2 problems:
a) While the wife doesn't like the fumes, she also wouldn't like the idea of blowing them into the neighbor's window
b) a long extension cord uses up quite a bit of amps itself, energy that gets lost for the filters.


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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Of course it runs outdoors, you sillies
Well, in my defence, I did say that I couldn't help thinking that if you could have done that, you would have already.

Anyway, sounds like you're doing all you can do. I didn't think you'd need to worry about heaters. Our news yesterday talked about parts of the US being in a heat wave - although I don't know if that is the part where you are. But I do remember you commenting on matty (I think it was him) wearing thick tennis socks when it was so hot.

Cheers
TW
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OK,

So, first of all, I am sorry that I did not participate in my fellow hobbyists threads too much during the last few days, with the power outage and a tremendous work schedule I just did not find the time to do anything besides letting you know about my own events in this thread.

Power News: WE ARE BACK IN BUSINESS

My wife managed to get the generator started sometime during the day yesterday, this gave my fish another 3 to 4 hours of filter activity. Once she turned it off, it took another 4 hours and then the real power came back on.

By the time I got home (after another 12 hour work session from hell) I just had enough time to plug everything back in and to adjust all the timers. I managed to feed all fish, for the 3 smaller tanks while their lights were out already (past bedtime for these tanks) and for this one with about half an hour of lights on. I could account for most of the fishies, as much as this is possible given that I don't even know how many Espei should be there. I did not see one of the Rainbows and the female Apisto, I will check more intense tonight when I get home. The other tanks were harder to check for fish (lights out), but it seems all are there.

In this tank, the Star Grass seems to have suffered the most, while certain plants seem to have thrived. It appears to me as if a few of my crypts (not the Wendtiis) have grown quite a bit, and the Alternanthera as well.

Maybe tonight I find more time to check on the damage that may have been done to flora and fauna, I theoretically also should drop off 35 Espei at the LFS, but I don't know if I will find the time.

That is it for now, off to another crazy day at work,

Ingo


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LF,
Glad you are back with power. Must be a nice feeling! As for your fish I hope they are all ok and that you don't have a plant mess to clean up. In general I think fish and plants are tougher than we think they are. Best wishes!

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Post InfoPosted 21-Jul-2006 14:29Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Oh, that's good you have power. Don't worry too much about the apistos & rainbows yet. With all your plants to hide in & if lights were only on for 1/2 hour, then that wasn't much time to spot them all. My apistos (the ones that worry me - you know the ones I mean) I sometimes don't see the female for a couple of days at a time, but so far, she always turns up.

Good luck with everything.



Cheers
TW
Post InfoPosted 21-Jul-2006 14:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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LF,
Hope all is well with the tanks.

In this tank, the Star Grass seems to have suffered the most, while certain plants seem to have thrived

I really have a love hate relationship with Star Grass. When it's good it's really good and tough to beat for constrast and it's probably one of the best plants if your want that cascading effect from back to mid, but it turns very quickly to a unattractive mess when conditions aren't to it's liking.

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Thank you all,

I am still trying to catch up with all the threads that I have not replied to, because of the power outage and the work load in the office. I hope the coming week will give me some time to do so, but for now I will just update my 4 logs and then I will be off again.

Weekly Tank Update - Week 43

This sure was an eventful week, having had the power outage and what not. I am too busy to write a lot, but here is one reason why the tanks did survive the 48 hours without a problem. The Generator was hummming for about 4 hours each day, enough to provide some agitation and oxygen enrichment in all 4 tanks:

Attached Image:

Generator



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Post InfoPosted 23-Jul-2006 12:42Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Here is how the tank looked like on Saturday morning.

All seems to be fine, but a closer look at the tank reveals that the Star Grass has suffered. To my surprise, the Hygro angustifolia has suffered as well, and quite a few leaves fell off. The alternanthera and a few smaller crypts on the other hand seemed to have grown better than usual. All fish have been accounted for:

Attached Image:

Before Water Change



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Here is a closer look at the Star Grass. I don't know how visible it is, but all lower parts of the plants have withered away or at least suffered enough to better remove them. I think I got lucky when I reduced the size of this group, otherwise I would have a much bigger mess right now.

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Star Grass



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Here is the tank now after the water change, which included a cleaning of the filter. BTW, I did nothing to the filters during the blackout, if there were any "bad" bacteria in them then they do not seem to cause any problems in the tank now.

Attached Image:

Tank Now



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As you can see in the full shot, the Star Grass is not even visible anymore, that is how short the trimmings had to be made in order to only keep healthy stems. Here is a closer look at the middle of the tank, slightly angled. You can see the tips of the Star Grass and some Alternanthera that I trimmed from other parts of the tank and planted between the Anubias on the left and the Star Grass.

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Peek-A-Boo



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Here is another close-up, just for the fun of it. I like the color contrast that the Alternanthera creates in a green tank, albeit its particular positioning in this spot may not be the best.

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Just Some Color



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Last but not least, here is a shot of the top of the 40G. That tank created quite a Duck Weed carpet and I removed some of it and added it to this tank.

Some of you may remember that I once had Duck Weed and that it dissapeared on me. Well, my theory that the fish ate it seems to hold merit, they liked the new Duck Weed as well. I wonder when they will have it all munched up

Attached Image:

Duck Weed



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Post InfoPosted 23-Jul-2006 12:56Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Glad all the fishies made it LF. That's good news. Your whole tank seems to have pulled though pretty well & still looks all very lush & what not.

48hrs without light & you can still taunt me with a very healthy looking splash of red.

Anyway, seems that generator was worth the purchase.

Cheers
TW
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Thanks Robyn,

Yup - all fish that I can count have been accounted for. This excludes the Otos (too good of a hider, haven't seen all 6 in a few weeks now) and the Espei, as I don't know how many I have. Oh, I don't remember if I mentioned it already, but I have not had a chance to give some to the LFS yet, with the power outage and the work load. I will try to work it out this week.

Ingo

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LF,

Is 100 pages a record? I bet its got to be close. All I have to say is "You the Man!"

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Post InfoPosted 24-Jul-2006 01:58Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Yep, I was just talking about Stargrass, very unforgiving plant. I like that Duckweed shot.

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Congrats on a 100 pages. Here's to a hundred more!

I just hope it doesn't break the board or anything

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Here's to a hundred more!


Holy cow, can you imagine?

I re-read Ingo's TFH article the other day and there was one part where they mentioned the beautiful planted tank where his espei bred, and I couldn't help but think to myself... "Hmm, yes beautiful... so beautiful, in fact, that he tore it all up and did it again... then tore that one up and did it again..." So indeed, here's to another 100 pages! /:'


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Is 100 pages a record?


I think we passed the record....say 40-50 pages back.



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Post InfoPosted 25-Jul-2006 04:05Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks guys for the compliments on the 100 thingy.

Workwise, I am being buried and barely had time to check into FP in the last days, if that continues then I can be glad if I add another 10 pages within the next year .

Anway, NowherMan6 is right, if there is one thing you guys can rely on then it is the fact that I like change, at least when it comes to my tanks

About the tank in itself right now: I still have all Espei as last weeks power outage cancelled the plan to fish some out and bring them to the LFS. I will try to do it this week then, maybe Thursday or Friday.

Thanks again,

Ingo


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Ok,

Things have changed, some of the Espei have been traded in at the LFS. As usual, it is quite a challenge to catch them in the planted tank, but with one larger net being held in one position and the other smaller one used to herd them in it took me only about 30 min to get around 30 of them (I think it was 29).

Here is a last shot of the larger school before I got started.

Attached Image:

Large School



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And here are the fish, ready to be brought to the LFS. If you want to, go ahead and count them as I come up with 30 or even 31 in the bucket.

That means, overall I already traded in about 60 Espei, all from the original 12 that I bought.

And - If you would like to know what I did with the store credit that I got, you will have to check in a few minutes into my 40G log

Attached Image:

Fish-Bucket



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So being you have taken 60 out of the tank. How many would you guess you have now? Do you still think they are breeding?

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Post InfoPosted 28-Jul-2006 14:10Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Wings,

I would guess that I have between 30 and 40 left, maybe more. I will try to get a rough count during the next water change. I picked fish for the LFS that are not too small or too old (fully grown adults, most likely still my original 12), this way I should be able to have more of them in the future.

I still see one or the other rather young fish (maybe 1 to 2 months old), although I haven't seen any tiny fry in quite a while as they must be better at hiding these days - given that there are/were about 100 fish in the tank that all would not hesitate to eat fry.

Assuming that the cut in numbers is significant enough, and that the Espei are in fact still breeding, I should see a few babies in not too far of a future.

Ingo


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Weekly Tank Update - Week 44

Similar to the 40G, this tank has seen a few changes within the last week, but nothing major. And similar to the 40G's weekly update for this week, I will first go and show a full tank shot before mentioning the details (and a few questions) in the detail shots.

Here is the tank last weekend:

Attached Image:

Last Weekend



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And here is the tank now this weekend, after trimming and water changes.

As you may notice, the Star Grass still has not reached a visible height behing the main wood group, I really had to trim it way back after the power outage.

More obvious is the change to the right side of the tank, in particular the Hygro group. Here is the full tank shot:

Attached Image:

Last Night



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This change was required as the Hygro group occupied way to much space in the tank and also reached a height that shaded everything else on that side of the tank. Remember that I planted them in such a large area to be able to reduce the size of the Star Grass group while still maintaining a large number of fast growers. Here is a shot of that hygro group before trimming:

Attached Image:

Hygro Jungle



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And here is a close-up of the same area after trimming. I have to confess that I did not take this shot to show the hygro, but rather the rainbows and a few of the Espei. It ever so happend that the hygro formed the backgroud for this come-together.

Attached Image:

Lower Hygro and Fish



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Overall, I did not only remove and trim every hygro stem in the tank, I went a little further:

I went ahead and removed all remaining green Wendtii plants from the right side of the tank, they were located at mid level, were mostly invisible from the front of the tank, were heavily shaded by the hygro to the point where 2 of the original 5 plant plugs were compeltely wiped out.

These green Wendtiis have been replanted between the Anubias (to their right) and the brown Wendtii (to their left) in the area formerly know as Rock Valley. I dont know how they will handel the replant or the larger amount of light, but I pretty much had to do something.

This also concluded in the right area being all available for the hygro and I planted it there rather densly but overall in much less of an area than what it occupied beforehand.

Here is the Wendtii

Attached Image:

New Wendtii Spot



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Ok, shift of topic for a while, on to fishies. I actually did not want to show any Otos, but I was happy to see most of them in the tank. Nevertheless, I only counted 5 out of 6, but that is more than I can account for most of the days.

So, here is an Oto

Attached Image:

Oto



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And here is a shot of two more Otos. If you look at the one in the background, doesn't he/she look somewhat like one of these leopard Otos or whatever they are called?

I like the way Otos "freeze" when approached, their way of defense.

Attached Image:

2 Otos



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The main fish of this week was the Espei. I managed to sell 30 of them to the LFS (trade in for Apistos, in case you didn't know). I avoided selling the fully grown original 12 and very young ones. I attempted to count how many are left in the tank during the water change, I guess it must be somewhere between 35 and 40, hard to tell.

This means that I have in the tank:

- 2 Pearls
- 2 Apistos
- 6 Rainbows
- 6 Otos
- 40 Espei

= 56 Fishies, that should be a managable number. Given tetratech's persistent statement that my lare number of fish is part of my algae problem, let's see if this makes a difference.

In honor, here is an Espei (female - middle aged):

Attached Image:

Espei



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Here, almost simply for the fun of it, is a colorful shot of the area where my Nana and Barteri (and Congensis) are located. In the following two pictures I will ask a question with regards to the smaller crypts in the foreground, but they are hard to identify in this shot. This side of the tank looks very natural, with all the plants growing into each other.

Attached Image:

Field



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On to the last two pictures of this series, but have a question attached (actually, it is the same question).

I purchased a bunch of different Crypts over time and lost track of which one is which. Two of them started off looking almost the same, but one grew quite tall compared to the other and its leaves also look a little different.

I believe that one of them is a Lucens, while the other is a Lutea. Any idea which is which?

Here is the taller one, approximately 4 to 5 inches tall:

Attached Image:

Crypt I



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And here is the smaller one, the shot was taken from the top of the tank when the water had its lowest point during the water change. The plant is at max 2 inches tall, most leaves are beween 1 and 3 inches long and grow pretty much sideways rather than up.

That is it for now,

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Crypt II



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tetratech
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56 Fishies, that should be a managable number. Given tetratech's persistent statement that my lare number of fish is part of my algae problem, let's see if this makes a difference.
For how long, with those rabbits in there. Let's go back to basics:

Sing to the theme of "One Fish, Two Fish"

More fish, more poop
more poop, more waste
more fish, more food
more poop, more waste
*Chorus*


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Post InfoPosted 30-Jul-2006 15:41Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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EditedEdited by NowherMan6
This was probably discussed a while ago and I missed it, but LF, rather that cull the fish, why not just get an extra filter?

It's not that I disagree with the low-bioload being easier idea because that's pretty well set, but to what degree? I don't think you have a ton of fish in there for a 125 gallon tank. How is it that Amano is able to keep schools of 100+ fish of similar size as espei in similar sized or even smaller tanks without problems? And this is a long term deal as well, not just for a photo shoot. I think the algae outbreaks have more to do with stirring up the substrate and not enough filtration than just having too many fish.


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rather that cull the fish, why not just get an extra filter?
Culling? Who is culling? I only ever culled fish in my 29G, but never in this tank. If you call a trade culling then so be it, but otherwise

Ok - here are a few comments to this quote:

- The number of Espei in the tank was too large. If you have fish of one school spread out throughout the tank you rarely have a chance to see them parade as a school. Yes, they do hang out in formation, but real perusing did occur only after feeding, I guess they had some form of a workout program to stay in shape. With a smaller number of fish this school swim thing happens more often.

- My main reason not to get a second filter is the current. I find my tank to have more than enough current for my fish, actually they mostly like to hang out in the area below the spraybar current, I assume because it is the least strong there.

Ingo


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If you call a trade culling then so be it, but otherwise


Please take no offense, it was a poor word choice, just meant thinning out the populations.

Those are good enough reasons, I was just trying to think of some other ways that didn't invlove thinning them out...


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No problem NowherMan6,

I just feel very guilty when I cull fish, taking its life although the fish is perfectly healthy and what not (not so if it is sick, I have no sorrow in that case).

Trading fish in is very hard for me as well, I never know where they will end up, but I can be almost certain that it will be at best equal to what I have to offer. So, in most cases, they will end up less fortunate than before

That are the times when I try really hard to remove myself from the emotional attachment to the fishies and try my best to see them as goods, but more often then not I am aware that I fool myself, they are my babies

Ingo


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- My main reason not to get a second filter is the current. I find my tank to have more than enough current for my fish, actually they mostly like to hang out in the area below the spraybar current, I assume because it is the least strong there.


Current also means food movement. Thus why I caught so many small mouth bass last night....

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That are the times when I try really hard to remove myself from the emotional attachment to the fishies and try my best to see them as goods, but more often then not I am aware that I fool myself, they are my babies

Spend some time in a LFS and you'll lose your emotional attachment very quickly. No offense LFS workers, but with the volume of fish there are so many casualties, etc. in any given day even in the best stores.

Your "too much flow" ponders another point. Eheims are marketed as a superior biological filter because of the size and contact that the water has with the biomedia. If you compare othe brands to the Ehiems their flow rates are much higher for the same tank size, because eheim claims the slower flow brings more contact with the biomedia thus filtering the water better. So if you took two filters and slowed the flow on both of them. You would have double the biomedia compared to the one filter but slower flow thru each. Wouldn't this solve your current problem and also increase filtration.

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The 2nd crypt is definately a Willisii, not sure if it's Willisii "Lucens" but could be.

I believe the first one to be Lutea.They get quite big about 8ins.


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Thanks Bensaf for the Plant ID, the Lutea took forever to reach its current height of 4 to 5 inches, so I assume I would have to wait quite a while longer for it to get to 8.

I guess I will have to see when I am willing to shell out another $200 for a second filter for the tank. I promise I will think about it.

Ingo


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I'm unwilling to beleive that the tank has too much flow, sorry LF. If anything your fish are just being lazy couch potatoes, they can definitely handle more flow, and will probably be more fit as well(yes, there's such thing as a "fat" fish, SW tanks are notorious for too little flow, thus creating lazy fish) At the same time, I would think that it would be able to keep up with the bioload, it is a bit overrated for your tank, but I'm not experienced with eheims. I find fluvals expensive.



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just being lazy couch potatoes




Well, you may be right, but the only fish that hang right in the current are the contenders for the "Espei of the Day" award, aka upcoming younger males that use the current as a fitness studio.

Plus - I have a small Rio 50 power head in there to help shooting the CO2 bullets all the way to the other end of the tank.

And about Fluval being , I am surprised you haven't shown us you DIY canister filter yet, Matty. Rigged from an old blender engine, an old coke bottle, and bycicle tires as the hoses

Ingo


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EditedEdited by tetratech
I'm unwilling to beleive that the tank has too much flow, sorry LF.
I would have to agree with this.
Plants and hardscape also break up flow so the fish would have plenty of room to move out of the flow, etc.

Actually the 2028 has about 40% more gph than my ecco 2236 and your tank is about 40% bigger, so I think we are in the same ballpark, although your tank is only about 30% bigger from left to right. In my tank I could see the wisteria all the way on the right (opposite side of spraybar) swaying gently in the current.

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Rigged from an old blender engine, an old coke bottle, and bycicle tires as the hoses


I've thought about rigging up a cannister, but once you add it all up it's probably pretty similar in price, and less functional.



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I've thought about rigging up a cannister
I am not surprised, if there is anyone I know who could do that then it is you, Matty

Tetratech - I can't let go of the second filter topic just yet. If you say that proportionally we are in the same ballpark with our filters, and if I count our fishies (in which case I actually now have less than you), then shouldn't my current one filter setup be sufficient?

Ingo


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EditedEdited by tetratech
Tetratech - I can't let go of the second filter topic just yet. If you say that proportionally we are in the same ballpark with our filters, and if I count our fishies (in which case I actually now have less than you), then shouldn't my current one filter setup be sufficient?


LF,
I don't propose to be a scientist, I try to use my gut and keep things simple. If your algae issues are ending then this is a moot point, but yes I believe our filtering capacity to be similiar, but that's where the similiaries end.

For starters you are running more light. I'm not sure exactly what your midday burst is but you have alot of light. IMO it is very difficult to maintain an algae free tank by traditional means with that light, fish load/feeding. Feeding and hight light is one of the most understated problems in planted aquaria. Because not only are you leaving behind uneaten food on the substrate, but you are causing the fish to poop more. It's a double-edged sword that combined with high-light is lethal combination.

If you continue to have algae problems and your plants are growing than something is out of balance and it's not your ferts.


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Good points, and it makes a lot of sense, tetratech. Thanks a lot

My midday burst is only 1 hour (3 to 4 PM), my total light duration is 10 hours (11 AM to 9 PM - and keep in mind that the tank is in the basement, ergo has very little natural light coming in beforehand).

Feeding has been reduced, based on your advice, and includes at least one non-feeding day per week.

I am slowly changing the tank around little by little, trying to make it nicer and to create more of a scape. This process may increase the chance of algae temporarily, but we will see how this evolves in the long term.

Thanks again,

Ingo


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Slooow moves, baby, slooow moves .

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Tetra provided a nice summary of the extra filter idea. Just to add my own two cents: it seems to come down to whether you want sufficient filtration, or extra filtration, and rule of thumb is when it comes to filters, go with too much rather than too little.

If you look around on other plant websites like APC and plantedtank.net, look a the set-ups for larger tanks, especially long ones. There's just about ALWAYS two filters on those things. As tetra said, the idea isn't necessarily strength of flow, but the amount of bio-media available for bacteria to colonize, which in turns allows the removal of the things that cause algae in high light tanks. You could always turn down the flow rates to stop water of swishing around so much and bending the plants, but this would still allow for more fitler colonization. Just an idea... and it is a lot of money to put in for something that may not be necessary.


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Nice follow-up, Nowher, glad someone is one the same page as me.

Just an idea... and it is a lot of money to put in for something that may not be necessary.

To be a true protist buster, I believe in attacking from both ends, so ideally you would want to go with a bigger or another filter and you reduce lighting, fish load/feeding, but any of these would help. The filter isn't necessary, but hey if LF wants stock which most people do than you need the filter.

I'll give too extreme examples with and without much "visible" algae.

Outdoor fish pond:
Closed system with a high waste load and all that light (sun) causes most of these systems to always have unslightly algae problems. Plant mass usually isn't all that great.

Natural Coral Reef:
Ever snokel or scuba thru these. Crystal clear water teeming with life. Same sun, but an endless biofilter from the reef,live rock, etc.

So in order to come closer to nature, one must increase the capacity of the filter so the system is larger. Isn't this the whole idea in saltwater, with hugh sumps, etc.

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What if you just add an extra bio area to the filter. PVC in line with your can. filled with bio balls?

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All are very good ideas, thank you very much guys.

I will consider each option carefully (meaning - it will take some time for me to change something).

Now a days I am enjoying the increased swimming activities of my Espei, finally they have some space to move around

Ingo


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Outdoor fish pond:
Closed system with a high waste load and all that light (sun) causes most of these systems to always have unslightly algae problems. Plant mass usually isn't all that great.


This hits home. Tons of people come in every day asking why they have algae in their ponds. My answer: Light and waste. Then I get this look: . I ask what filter they are using, and they tell me what kind of pump they have for their waterfall. "That's not a filter." Then I get this look: . I show them our setups which are 5Gal. buckets ghetto rigged with bioballs and filter floss. They either walk out with a tetra brand or a good idea in their head. I also ask how many plants they have floating on the surface(light) or something else to block the light. "Oh, I got a couple of these, and a couple of these." I tell them that having 1/2 to 3/4 of the pond covered will help reduce the amount of light that hits the pond, and the extra plant load will help pull out waste. I get this look: . The ones that follow my suggestions then give me this look a few weeks later .

What if you just add an extra bio area to the filter. PVC in line with your can. filled with bio balls?


DIY - I like it



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Post InfoPosted 02-Aug-2006 04:16Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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Yeah,

Me and DIY .

I would spend so much time on research and development that, if I calculate the hours times the money I should be paid for this time, it will run way more expensive then if I simply go out and buy an off the shelf unit.

But maybe I can contract Matty to rigg me one

Ingo


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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
WOW

I just came back from the Big Al's website and to my surprise I cannot find Tropica Master Grow there anymore?

What is going on, am I just not able to find it?

If it isn't sold anymore (and I need a BIG bottle) what is a feasible replacment? They have 2 liter bottles of Seachem Flourish, would that be the equivalent, or i Flourish Trace missing in that equation?

Any help would be appreciated,

Ingo

EDIT: They also have 2 liter and 4 liter bottles of Flourish Trace, should I go for both together (Flourish and Flourish Trace)?


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I just came back from the Big Al's website and to my surprise I cannot find Tropica Master Grow there anymore?


LF,
You have to call them. They are overhauling their website and it's all screwed up. I have all these VIP points and it's not showing up

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Post InfoPosted 02-Aug-2006 19:26Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Aih

I have thousands of points as well, and would like to add more. I guess if I call them then I would not get the points for this order, right (I am also buying a AC 50 filter for my neighbor, I can't stand his catridge throw-out filter for his 10G)?

Thanks so far tetratech,

Ingo


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EditedEdited by tetratech
I have thousands of points as well, and would like to add more. I guess if I call them then I would not get the points for this order, right (I am also buying a AC 50 filter for my neighbor, I can't stand his catridge throw-out filter for his 10G)?


They might accomdate you on the points if you call.

BTW - I stopped buying set catridges for my filters. I have an AC 20 on my 12g and I have some efisubstrate in a bag and the sponge that comes with the filter, so I never have to replace anything.


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And I use only sponges (2 on top of each other) in my AC50 and AC70.

But, to get back on topic, let us assume they don't have TMG anymore, is Flourish AND Flourish Trace its replacement that I should use? And if so, in what proportions (50/50 or 25/75 or what)?

Thanks,

I will wait for the answer before I call,

Ingo


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tetratech
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But, to get back on topic, let us assume they don't have TMG anymore, is Flourish AND Flourish Trace its replacement that I should use? And if so, in what proportions (50/50 or 25/75 or what)?


I could only speak from my own experience, but I don't use trace anymore, I just use Flourish 3 times weekly. I haven't used Flourish potassium, trace as long as I could remember and I'm not really using Flourish Iron anymore either.

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Boah,

there is actually a thread on APC with regards to Tropica and the TMG. Supposedly they have a marketing change and do all kinds of stuff.

Just type Tropica Master Grow in the search at APC and then select the ""Tropica Plant Nutrition+ Liquid" - new Tropica products availability?" thread.

Guess I am out of luck

Ingo


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Yup,

So I called Big Al and guess what:

They do not have TMG per se anymore, instead they are getting this week the whole new line of Tropica plant care products.

I had a very nice and knowledged gentleman on the phone, he informed me that instead of one mix there are now 15 or so components that one would have to buy (I guess he included the macros) .

It is not on the website yet as not all products have been shipped from Tropica just yet, but keep your eyes open - it should be there within this week.

I bought TMG for its simplicity, what are they thinking!!!!

I guess I will go with a smaller bottle of Flourish for the time being until we know more about this Tropica Attack.

Thanks,

Ingo


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tetratech
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I bought TMG for its simplicity, what are they thinking!!!!


Then I think you'll be fine with the Flourish (It's got FE in it) I havent seen any difficienies and my Rotala has nice red hues to it.

I'd like to say a small pray, for all of us living thru this heatwave that we don't lose power. My unheated swimming pool is reading 90F.



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Can someone clarify for me: what exactly was Tropica master grow? Was is a combination of macros and micros? Just Micros and traces? Did it contain Ca and Mg?


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By Flourish you mean the Seachem Flourish right? It's funny that this came up as I was asking a similar question in my 25 log.

As for the heat... well not much sympathy here! After spending my whole life in Sunny Central Florida and now Houston that is pretty much the norm in the summer time. It is kind of funny that you all are pretty much hotter than us right now though.


Rick
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Rick - Sure, tell us what softies we are, but for notherners like us this is pretty hot, plus about 5000% humidity ().

I used TMG for my micros, and I think this is what it was mostly composed of. I don't even know the exact content, I believed Bensaf and Untitled that it was good as they introduced me to fertilizers by telling me I always have to carry a bottle of it around, no matter where I go.

Ingo


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bensaf
 
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TMG is a micro fert. The best for me. It seems to give plants a sheen that others are lacking. Flourish is good too. No need for the Trace if using the regular Flourish.

The change in the Tropica products is a bit confusing but no means does it mean you need a lot of bottles to replace TMG.

A bit of background - Tropica was bought out about a year or so back. There is a new CEO. This new range is his idea it would seem.

While I would agree with the idea of the new products - which are basically a response to the hobby becoming more sophiscated and high tech, the insistance on producing products that "contain no nitrate or phosphate" is now old hat - the name change is a marketing disaster IMO.

Basically TMG will still be the same product but with a new name Aqua something or other.Still a micro fert. The other products are a macro fert with N+P, a potassium fert, a root tab and I think an Iron only fert. Pretty much like the Seachem range. If you are using the dry chems you'd still only need the micro fert. The other are a replacement for the dry chems which can be pretty hard to get in some parts (especially Europe), after all KNO3 can be used in bomb making, it was certainly an old favorite of the IRA before Cemtex was so easy to get hold of.

Check the Tropica website for more info.


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Thanks for the info Bensaf

I am mostly with you on the marketing blunder of this move. I also assume that I will have to read up more on these new products, all I can say so far is that the guy on the phone from Big Al's said that there is not ONE product that will replace TMG, but multiple that need to be used in combination. I easily imagined that the new series will include a "most micros in one shot" product, but also that Iron would be excluded from this product and has to be bought seperately. Besides that there may be other micros (mostly calcium and magnesium) that I could see in individual products.

Guess we will find out soon enough.

Ingo


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LF,

Sorry to hear that your Micro Fert is on its way out. Change really sucks sometimes! It seems that people are always out there trying to make a buck and that makes our lives a pain in the butt.

I have been using Flourish in my tank with Flourish Iron. Flourish has low % of your Macros and all the micros including iron. The only reason I am using Iron on top of reg. Flourish is an expermental thing. I am finding that my crypts are much more red in color with it. Other than that I don't see any real change.

Hoped that helped!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
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Sure did help Wings,

The more people confirm tetratech's usage the more reliable the information becomes (at least if the right people confirm it).

All we will have to do now is to find a Guinea Pig to test out the new Tropica stuff

Ingo


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The more people confirm tetratech's usage the more reliable the information becomes (at least if the right people confirm it).

What me and my exciting "still life" tank isn't proof enough.

Remember you also have alot of goodies in your eco. Well 3 out 4 ain't bad. I think that's a song, or no that's 2 out of 3

My Scapes
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Come on Tetratech,

Don't get too angry at us for talking about your Still Life.

Without a doubt is your tank in much better shape than my 125, in any aspect (well, I may have closed in on the proper fish count with the latest trade though). We bring this up because there is nothing else to bicker about

Ingo


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All we will have to do now is to find a Guinea Pig to test out the new Tropica stuff
NOT IT!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 03-Aug-2006 20:18Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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Flourish is good too. No need for the Trace if using the regular Flourish.
For traces, I've been using Flourish Trace - but should I be using regular Flourish instead?

Cheers
TW
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Trace
Flourish

I think that Flourish has everything that Trace has and more. I haven't look really super close at it though. Personaly I would do Regular Flourish for your micros. For no other reason than the iron. Though I think we get quite a bit of micros from our WC's. Thats just me though and my two cents.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
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bensaf
 
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All we will have to do now is to find a Guinea Pig to test out the new Tropica stuff


If I can get hold of it I will definately be trying it. I have a lot of faith in Tropica. Anybody who's tried their plants will tell you that. The quality is miles ahead of anything else. My Anubias and Crypt Spiralis came from Tropica - stunning quality.

Micros are very hard to get hold of here. I'm on my last dose of TMG (which I had to pick up in S'pore). There's is nobody selling TMG here anymore and only 1 place I know selling Flourish but it's in the middle of Chinatown and a bugger to get to. All I have at the moment is some unknown S'pore brand.


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Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
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So I guess there is no way that you would get this stuff right away, except if you would take a "short" trip to Singapore over the weekend .

I have a while to go (maybe two months at least) before I will be in crisis mode again, at least when it concerns micros, otherwise I am in crisis mode all the time anyway .

I ordered 2 liters of flourish and will see how it works out. I would assume that regular dosage volumes, based on Seachem instructions, is sufficient, right?

Ingo


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tetratech
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I would assume that regular dosage volumes, based on Seachem instructions, is sufficient, right

That's pretty much what I do, 3 times weekly.

My Scapes
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So that is what I will do then as well, as soon as my TMG is totally empty (I may have about 2 to 3 weeks of stuff left).

Thanks tetratech,

Ingo


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tetratech
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I think the bottle says 1 or 2 times per week, so I'm going alittle over. Following Master Hodge Podge

BTW - I just ran out of my first container of Stump Remover (NO3) since I started the tank. It was a 16oz (454grams) container of powdered (no3)

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NowherMan6
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tetra, are you going to switch to greg watson KNO3? I like the fact that it's much more powdery than Green Light (which I have), seems to dissolve better right in the WC.


Back in the saddle!
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tetratech
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tetra, are you going to switch to greg watson KNO3? I like the fact that it's much more powdery than Green Light (which I have), seems to dissolve better right in the WC.

I actually bought two containers when I first purchased at Lowes. So I have a full 16oz to go. Your right it's a larger grain size then the more powdery stuff. I basically take a plastic cup scoop some tank water into it. Pour in the no3 and po4, stir and pour it into the tank.

My Scapes
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So I don't know if it is true around your neck of the woods but Lowes doesn't have Green Light Stump Remover any more. I have checked both stores in my area and nothing. They have another stump remover but it doesn't say what it is inside! GRR! I think I will be making a greg W. order sometime in the next couple of months. I am down to about 1/2 my contaner for Green Light.

In terms of Flourish I am doing 1 capful of Reg. Flourish (2L cap) and 1 cap of the Iron (small cap). This I do 3 times a week.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
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Thanks,

I will try to get by without adding additional Iron, as I didn't purchase any

Then we have to manage to get Bensaf some of the new Tropica products so he can try them out for us.

Ingo


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Weekly Tank Update - Week 45

Not too much to say at all this week, the tank is growing and the ferts are flowing

Overall, not too much has happened, most concerned the end of the TMG era as Tropica is now selling new products that are not yet available. So I will try Flourish for a while, I will let you know when the TMG stock I have is depleted.

Strangely, I still see maybe 5 to 10 hyro leaves floating every week. This started after the power outagae over two weeks ago and had never happened before. Any ideas?

Here is the tank last weekend (comparison):

Attached Image:

Last Week



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LITTLE_FISH
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And here is the tank now this weekend after the water change. I have to remember to turn off the light in the 40G as its reflection always creates a line in this tank when taking a picture, sorry about that.

The Star Grass is just becoming visible again, I find the growth rather slow these days. It may also be related to the fact that I had to cut them so short after the power outage.

Attached Image:

Now



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And here is a shot of the top part at low tide, during water change.

I like how the wood, anubias, and Alternanthera peek out of the water. Maybe I should reduce the water level permanently to this height and make it a palladium. But I guess that means that I have to get rid of even more fishies.

And this is it for this week, nothing more to show.

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Top Part



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EditedEdited by Wingsdlc
http://www.aquariumdesigngroup.com/detected.php?page=&pass=
Ok the link only goes to the main page. Go to the gallory, planted tanks and it is #18.

This is probably one of my favorite tanks.


55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 06-Aug-2006 15:12Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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For me #15 is an abosolute masterpiece. A great layout for a big tank. It's a tank that anybody with the vision could grow. Fairly low maintenance which is important for big tanks. It's very similar to a tank by Luis Navarro which is just slightly better.
I get the sense this was a look Ingo was originally aiming for but it got off track.

#26 is also a nice layout for a big tank but a lot more work.

While we're at it take a look a pics #6 thru 8. This is what I envisioned the 40gal breeder to look like. Very simple but clever design.


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
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So for LF to get the effect of 5-8 he would have to use Nana and nana pittea or whatever it is.

I think he was really on the right track but then his plants drowned the hard scape.



55G Planted tank thread
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[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
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Thanks guys, I will have to take a closer look at the suggested numbers, but I am pretty sure that I had seen the one for the 40 before, and yes - I tried something like that.

But I assume that is what seperates me from Jeff Senske.

Ingo


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tetratech
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But I assume that is what seperates me from Jeff Senske.

Ingo don't sell yourself short. Nothing against Jeff S he is very talented at what he does. But he does this for a living and I'm sure has a large inventory of wood, plants, rocks etc to choose from to make the layout look just right. It's becuase of this reason in my opinion why it's very hard to judge aquascaping contests, etc on an equal playing field. I know they have budget scaping contests as well, but it's still difficult.

My Scapes
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bensaf
 
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I'm sure has a large inventory of wood, plants, rocks etc to choose from to make the layout look just right.


This is true to a large extent. A lot of us start with a vision in our head - then out out to get the wood, rocks and plants and then can't find what we're looking for and end up "comprimising".Having high quality materials readily at hand is a huge bonus.

The opposite can be true also, some just pick up a pile of stuff and then try to make a 'scape out of whatever is at hand. That rarely works.

But desipte all that I do believe certain people just have a "gift" for this thing - an eye. If you or I had access to the same materials that some of these guys have are you still confident you could do as good a job? I'm not

Some seem to have the ability to see how the tank is going to look 6 months down the line and allow for that (but that's probably mostly experience and observation of plants). Self control (of which I'm sorely lacking) is a necessity. An eye for detail and balance.

Look at the rocks in the pic I mentioned as a masterpiece, there's a lot of them, yet I can't find one in the'scape that's in the wrong place or the wrong size. They all look perfect and natural as if they've always been there. The fact that the guy may have had to choose those rocks from hundreds he had on hand, to me, makes the achievment in the 'scape more admirable rather then less !

Remember the old story? If you leave enough monkeys alone in a room with a typewriter in time maybe one of them will do a Shakespeare. Maybe if you left us in a room with a tank and a pile of ADA kit, rocks, wood and plants , maybe one of us would pull of a tank to rival Senske or Amano.
Maybe. To my mind a big maybe. Fair dues to these guys, they have a genuine sense of creativity. They're arists we're merely artisans.


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Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
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EditedEdited by tetratech
I certainly couldn't guarantee how my creations would fair, but I could tell you that I'd rather have a closet of DW, rocks and plants to choose from than none at all. Look how good Imelda Marcus looked with all those shoes to match her outfits.

I've tried to make the most out of crappy DW, a few stem plant species and a whole lot of weeds (Wisteria).
Yes some of us have an eye for this others do not. I think it's easier to make a rock front look natural when you have more to choose from (statisically there is a greater likelihood that you'll fine ones that achieve harmony) In addtion to inventory Jeff S also has the advantage of multiple canvases to practice what works and what doesn't. When you do somthing hundreds of times you do tend to work out the kinks. Most people do get better when you get more touches.

I'll end as I began, I'm not taking anything away from Jeff S he obviously has alot of talent, but I would still rather be able to work with all his toys, both in and out of the tank as opposed to my sorry little collection of sticks and stones.

My Scapes
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No doubt does availablitlity of high quality and quantity of scaping material and plants (and fancy ADA soil, one may add) have something to do with the outcome of a planted tank design.

And also, no doubt does talent and experience play a major role in the scaping process.

Given that I have None-Of-The-Above, my tank is what it is. Pretty good for an average dude, but nothing more.

On the other hand, exactly this is what gives me the option to constantly fiddle with it. To be honest, an perfect tank frightens me as I would not know what to do with it. In some stages of tetratech's tanks (both) I am looking at the pictures and think to myself "and what now".

I, for one thing, fell in love with the ability to change things around all the time, called a tank redo "Ingo Style". The most pleasing of all tanks to change is the 20G, as a whole redo takes me as long as a regular water change and trimming on the 125G.

Ingo


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Hi there all,

10 days with no entries in my log, neither by me nor anybody else.

Anyway, I have been ultra busy at work, at the same time I had friends over from Germany for a few days, and then I went on vacation and replaced the view into my tanks (which, btw, are going down the drain, the 125 is now BBA paradise, but more maybe tomorrow or Sunday about that).

I just came back from the trip and thought to let you know that I am still around. Gotta go and unpack now, till later,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Last Week's Highlight



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NowherMan6
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LF,

Glad to see you're back. Sorry about the tanks - you didn't go crazy and start dumping SW fish into your FW tanks now did you?


Back in the saddle!
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No, I did not add salt to the freshwater tanks, although it wouldn't make much difference in the 125 anyway these days, inconsistent fertilization and a lack of attention have done quite some damage.

But glad to see that you haven't lost your humor, makes me feel good.

Ingo


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Tainted Glory
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Ingo, Midnight Madness is coming up at ABS. It's going to be my first time as a customer. Just wondering if you planned on attending. I'd like to catch up!
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Mike,

I guess Midnight Madness is in a week, right? I will have to think about it, there is really nothing at the moment that I would need, except maybe a huge load of plants for this tank, which I am sure they don't have.

Can you think of something that would make it worthwhile standing in line forever?

Ingo


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Tainted Glory
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...you mean aside from keeping me company?

Ummm, I really don't know. I don't really want anything either. I'm going to pick up a bag of Eco Complete and see if I can win some free stuff. If I have to wait in line I'll be pissed!
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Welcome back LF, hope your visitors & holiday gave you some great chill out time.

Anyway, what's the story with the clown You can't just put a pic up without telling us what it all means. Is there soon to be darkside log for LF. BTW, it's a nice clown.

Cheers
TW
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was wondering why you hadnt posted ingo, hope you had fun on holidays







one two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve thirteen fourteen fifteen sixteen seventeen , thats all you need.

OH TOLEEDY!
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w00! a 125 SW reef tank. Nice jorb LF!/:'



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Post InfoPosted 19-Aug-2006 06:26Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Mike - If I go then I may not get there before 1 AM, that's usually when the line gets shorter. How much do you think the Eco will go for?

Robyn and Matty - Yeah right, I got a 125G reef tank . Actually, I am currently in the middle of editing about 30 pictures of fishies from an aquarium that I visited, the best shots out of 200 that I made. I will post most of them in the marine section and some in the general freshwater, once editing is completed. I personally am so not ready for any salt tank, no way such an entity will enter the Little_Fish houseold any time soon.

Dan - Glad to see that you are peaking in once in a while

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 19-Aug-2006 12:29Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
I didn't really think you'd started a reef tank, just wanted to know the meaning of the clown pic.

I agree too, that I am soo not ready for a reef tank either, but that's what hubby has started up & my birthday present to him was one year's maintenance on his tank - I just didn't know it was going to be a reef

Cheers
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my birthday present to him was one year's maintenance on his tank
- Even if it would have been a planted freshwater tank, that is a very generous present that you gave there.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 19-Aug-2006 14:59Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Welcome back Ingo. Looking forward to seeing the new pictures. This place sure does slow down though when the LF isn't posting.

Rick
See all my pictures at Google Web Albums
Post InfoPosted 19-Aug-2006 20:38Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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So where did you go LF!?!?!

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Post InfoPosted 19-Aug-2006 22:47Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks Rick - btw, haven't seen any new shots or stories about your tanks lately either

Wings - I was just at the end of Long Island, still in the state of New York.

Weekly Tank Update - Week 46 AND 47

The last two weeks were marked by a busy work schedule and vacation, and on top of it a declining tank. At least part of that decline can be directly attributed by the lack of frequent fertilization over that time period.

Here is the tank last weekend:

Attached Image:

Last Weekend - Week 46



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When I came home from the trip I found that the BBA has greatly increased, something that tetratech usually attributes to a lack of CO2. In my case, that was the only stable thing this tank received (besides light).

So this week's maintenance focussed on removing dead or heavily infested plant tissue, and it also sees the start of another round of Excel treatment to control the BBA. The isoetes lacustris had been so badly infested that I had to remove it completely.

When one looks at the tank now with regards to scaping, it is a mess. There is no scape, just plants. I am the least happy with this tank ever since I set it up 47 weeks ago. I simply cannot invision how this should continue, except with another major overhaul, and we all know what that means

Here is the tank this week:

Attached Image:

This Weekend



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All I can show now are a few BBA shots, they sprout on hardware, wood, and plants (mostly on leaves that are not growing fast, like anubias and isoetes, as well as dying leaves).

First one from the top of the tank, the highest branch near the light:

Attached Image:

BBA I



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Here is another one on some driftwood, but much further down in the tank and in a much darker section. Oh, btw, I believe I do not have a short high light period, as plants low to the bottom of the tank wither away, like most of my tenellus.

Attached Image:

BBA II



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Post InfoPosted 20-Aug-2006 14:03Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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And this is how the BBA looks when anchored on an Anubias leaf, I can clearly see why it contains the word beard in its name as it collects itself on the edges of the leaves.

That is it for now,

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

BBA III



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Post InfoPosted 20-Aug-2006 14:05Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I am really sorry your tank is filling up with BBA again. I would try to combat it with two things.

1. Excel to the extreme
2. Lighting break

In my tank for the past month or so I have been doing the lighting break to control the GSA. It seems to be working thus far with no signs of plant problems.

What I am doing is run the light for 5-6 hours then take a 2 hour break then back with another 5-6 hours of light. Now don't get my wrong I do have some algae but it has really really slowed down. Aglae needs long periods of light to photosynthesize while the plants can turn it on and off quickly. My plants do not pearl as much as they used to but they are still growing well. Pearling is not really a sign of growth as we have talked about before.

That's just my $0.02



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Post InfoPosted 21-Aug-2006 01:55Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks Wings,

I knew about the light midday break ever since I started in this hobby, and I actually used it immediately on my first tank (the 29). I kept it like that for a few months before I switched to a non-break cycle and I had seen no difference from before and after.

The reasons could be related to the fact that it was a medium light / low tech tank, but there is also a chance that it doesn't work as simple as that. I know way too little about algae to understand if a break after 4 to 5 hours of lights-on would actually harm them, or hinder their growth. Could it be that you see less algae because your overall light period has been shortened as well?

I will have to read up on that topic again, I guess. Right now I cannot recall any statement from the famous planters that suggests such a method.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 21-Aug-2006 10:34Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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The book it got the idea from is:

Encyclopedia of Aquarium plants by Peter Hiscock.

Basicly what it says is what I have already said. Aglae can not photosynthesize without long lighting periods but the plants can. It might be worth trying just to see in your high tech tank. Seems to be working for me.

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Post InfoPosted 21-Aug-2006 14:21Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Wings,

thanks for the info, I think I have this book

If I am not mistaken then this is the same book that suggests the use of an UGF, right?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 21-Aug-2006 14:30Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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When one looks at the tank now with regards to scaping, it is a mess. There is no scape, just plants. I am the least happy with this tank ever since I set it up 47 weeks ago. I simply cannot invision how this should continue, except with another major overhaul, and we all know what that means


Hey LF, I'm sorry you feel this way. I know exactly how you feel though, because that's how I felt about my 46 before I tore it down. You just feel like you have no vision, that it's so out of whack you don't know where to take it.

And keep in mind, I like the way your tank looks, at least from afar. Plants are healthy as are the fish. My old 46 looked that way too, but the blemishes are there when you look at it up close.

It's a real personal thing, these tanks. I don't want to tell you do this or do that. The thing that helped me was tearing down the tank and making plans to start over, and taking it reeeal slow and planning.

And keep in mind, even Amano says that sometimes a tank's lifespan is only a year, that sometimes the vitality of the stems runs out and the look becomes so muddled you have to start over. It wouldn't be a failure, it's just a learning experience. The thing that would make it difficult with this tank is that the plants in there already are infected with algae, so would have to be discarded. It's a big financial commitment to start over. It's also an opportunity to do things from the get go that you wish you'd done earlier.

Sorry, I hate being the pessimist You've got to do what you think is best, but if you're going to do it over, go all out and start anew.


Back in the saddle!
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Thanks NowherMan6,

I knew you would understand

The biggest problem with starting anew would be that I cannot really take it slow then either. I have about 50 fish to house right away

If I didn't have any fish, or only so many that I could move them to the other tanks for the time being, I would rip that sucker apart in minutes

Ingo

EDIT: This was my 5000th post


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Congrats LF on the 5000th post! Rock on!

I have not found anything about UGF in this book. You might be thinking of the Encyclopedia of Aquarium Fish book.

Nowher has some good points but it is very hard being you have so many fish. Plus it is hard to let go of what you have and start over on something new.

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Post InfoPosted 22-Aug-2006 03:04Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Wings,

Albeit it is hard to let go of things, but when it comes to plants, decoration, and substrate though I have no hesitation to do. Why else would there be the term "Tank Redo - Little_Fish Style", or something like that, here on FP .

If it wasn't for the upsetting of the balance inside the tank, I probably would do these things once every other month. This way, I could make 24 different tanks out of the 4 that I have within the course of a year

Ingo


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Yeah I understand what you are saying. Right now I try to keep my planted tank stable. I pulled up my hygro moster last night to try to get the loaches out (plus it needed a bottem trimming). What a mess! I couldn't comprehend doing a LF change.

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I though I share with you what Excel can do for the algae.

This is a comparison shot after 3 days of Excelt treatment of 50ml per day. As you can see, the algae turned reddish, a sign that it is dying.

Unfortunately, not all BBA bastions in the tank look like this yet, others range from a brownish to spotted red color to not changed at all. But I will get them eventually.

Attached Image:

Top Is Before --- Bottom After 3 Days



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Post InfoPosted 22-Aug-2006 23:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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And, while I was taking the pictures, my fishies of course thought that I will feed them, so they collect in the top left corner of the tank for the feast. In particular the Apistos, Rainbows, and Pearls.

After I didn't feed for a few minutes, although I was in front of the tank, the male Apisto got a little ticked off and let me know that he is expecting something.



Attached Image:

Give Me Food



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Post InfoPosted 22-Aug-2006 23:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Hi LF

Interested to see the excel BBA shots. As you know, I started the treatment in the 23.7G log last night. Hope it works for us both

I love your male, he's very pretty. If only I had more tanks, I want a pair just like yours or tretratech's.

Cheers
TW
Post InfoPosted 23-Aug-2006 00:33Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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If only I had more tanks
Oh oh, this is usually the first step towards a new tank

Tetratech's Apsitos are nice, I agree. But mine are rarer , or do you know someone else here with viejita IIs

Anyway, its all just fun and games

Yeah, keep us posted how that Excel treatment is working out. I remember that the first time I did it the results showed rather quickly. The next time it had almost no effect, I don't know why.

Ingo


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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Oh oh, this is usually the first step towards a new tank
No chance. At this stage, I'm banned from going ahead with my 4ft - it's empty in the garage & I had to shut down my little hospital tank

Apistos can be hard to find here. There are a few LFS that stock them though. Lots of africans, bolivians & ram's, they're pretty common. I can find Cac's, tetratech's (too lazy to find name), as well as some others, but my Bitaeniata was a rarer find & I haven't seen any viejita IIs. To get a viejita IIs, I'd probably need to pre order & wait ages (like I did for the dehane - & you know I gave up there). For some reason, I don't think there's enough demand for them. But maybe if they were in more LFS, that would create more demand

Cheers
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LF,

Are you dosing Excel to the whole take or trying to hit different infected spots?

If you go by a medical store you can pick up syringes. Not the kind with the needles but with the bigger openings. The ones we have at my store an air line hose fits great. With this you can give the algae a direct hit. Works swell!

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Post InfoPosted 23-Aug-2006 14:18Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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I am treating the entire tank as I have BBA all over the place and not only in one spot.

Btw, I did some focussed Excel treatment on my Xmas moss in the 29, with the consequence that some of the moss died within a week (see log)

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 23-Aug-2006 14:31Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by tetratech
LF,
What is your current co2 level? When did you stablize the co2 (tubing issue)? I would push the co2 as far as you can? I have an advantage because I'm around my tank more than you and I could monitor better. I notice if the fish look alittle funky toward the evening, I just nudge my spraybar above the waterline to get some agitation.

BBA definitely got worse when the co2 was erratic. Excel is just not a good long-term solution and it obviously has negative effects on some plants.


My Scapes
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tetratech,

Thanks for the advice, although I never had CO2 tubing issues in this tank (I know it gets confusing on which tank has what issue), that was the 40G.

I have no idea what the CO2 level in this tank is, but I assume it is pretty good as a constant bubbling, hacked into small pieces by a powerhead, is pushed through the tank all day long. I can go and measure though, just in case.

Ingo


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Oh, yeah. Me bad , but same difference. In the same way excel seems to destroy some algae, high co2 has a similar effect on it's inability to grow. I could usually tell by my hardscape if I'm going to have bba issues. The main rock gets covered if the co2 is too low, but the main rock now has been clear for about a month with constant high co2.

My Scapes
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Tetra,
How high do you think your CO2 is? The last time I checked mine I was well over 30ppm and I am not having any major algae issues.

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Post InfoPosted 23-Aug-2006 17:59Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Wings,
So hard to tell by the numbers, but my ph is off the scale low (under 6 by afternoon and my kh is steady at 2.



My Scapes
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The last time I checked mine I was at around 6.8 at night and 7.2 in the morning with a KH of 16. That gives me a range of aboutg 78ppm at night to 30ppm in the morning. Probably a little high but I have never seen a fish gasping that the top for air.

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Weekly Tank Update - Week 48

This week was the first in three weeks that saw a frequent use of fertilizers again, plus a daily shot of Flourish Excel to combat the BBA. Both seem to have helped in improving the tanks overall health.

Here is the tank shot from last week, for comparison:

Attached Image:

Last Week



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Post InfoPosted 27-Aug-2006 13:23Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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And here is the tank now this weekend after some changes.

A purchase of some Bolbitis for the 40G meant that the Barteri from that tank had to go. Too nice to be thrown out, and too big for any of my other tanks, I added it to this one. I removed the Red Wendtii from the left side, and also disposed of the Ludwigia that was there. The whole space was then taken up by the Barteri.

The Alternanthera in that group had been moved to the back left corner, it got too tall for the spot where it was. Also, two Hygro stems sitting in front of the Star Grass had been removed.

Attached Image:

Tank Now



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As you may have noticed the Star Grass and the Hygro on the right had been growing nicely during the last week.

Here is a close-up of the Anubias group on the left side of the tank. The whole section that rised on the left side is only the one Barteri Mother Plant from the 40G.

Attached Image:

Anubias Group



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Post InfoPosted 27-Aug-2006 13:28Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Here is a close-up of the Narrow Laaf Java Fern, a plant that I soon will have to do something about. It is getting too big for its current position and may need either trimming or placement somewhere else in the tank. I have some thoughts, but maybe you folks should give me your ideas on what to do with it first.

That is it for now,

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Narrow Leaf Java Fern



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Might try it back between the two large anubias. I don't know if there is room back there and if it will fit, but it might look nice there. Otherwise you could cut it up a bit and stick it on either side of the star grass. It just looks too similar to the hygro on the right to put it anywhere over there.



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Post InfoPosted 27-Aug-2006 15:43Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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My two cents:

1.Take the center push some rocks in their and make it more mound like.
2.Add anubias in and around mound.
3.Sweep stargrass around to interact with some of the other plants
4.Split the fern and divide on either said of mound and try to position some wood between it and the hygro.



My Scapes
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Thanks for the suggestions on what to do with the tank next. I also think that I probably will have to do something with the center group, and I fear it means that I would have to take out the wood and either chop it up or at least reposition it.

I will have to think about it for a while.

Thanks,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 27-Aug-2006 23:01Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
OK,

Here are some news with regards to this tank. I finally caved in and ordered a second filter for the tank, an Eheim 2026. This is the one I have on the 40G, and there I have it run on a slow mode. I am sure it will be more than sufficient for this tank, given that I already have a 2028 on it.

I assume it will arrive sometime next week, so I will do some changes the following weekend.

Let me see if I remember that right: place them on opposite ends of the tank, spray across the top towards the middle, maybe reduce flow on both to avoid hurricane conditions in the tank.

Ingo

Edit: oh, I just now realized that I am a contributer as well, nice


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Congratulations on now being a contributer /:'

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I finally caved in and ordered a second filter for the tank, an Eheim 2026. This is the one I have on the 40G, and there I have it run on a slow mode. I am sure it will be more than sufficient for this tank, given that I already have a 2028 on it.

I think that's a really good move. Yeah you could have the spray bars on the left and right side glass and have the co2 meet in the middle, swoooooosh

BTW - Congrats! on being a contributor. First TFH and now FishProfile, what's next? BTW - What did you contribute?


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I agree, good call on the filter. You may not see immediate results but in the long run it's definetely a good move...


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tetratech
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Let's go back to basics. The end-product of the nitrogen cycle is no3, right?

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What did you contribute?


Quite a few profile changes here and there, mostly on the Espei and Viejita, plus loads of pictures from fishies.

And what's next - retirement

The end-product of the nitrogen cycle is no3, right? - Right

Ingo


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tetratech
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The end-product of the nitrogen cycle is no3, right? - Right

O.K. So the bacteria are releasing no3 into the water column?

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Among other things, like CO2(use O2 as fuel, like us) and possibly other waste products, I'm not sure.



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So the bacteria are releasing no3 into the water column?
Yes - sounds about right

Where are we going with this? Should I add less KNO3?

Ingo


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tetratech
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Where are we going with this? Should I add less KNO3?
O.K. we are still on track, after Matty's "rude" interuption .

So if the bacteria are consistently releasing NO3 in the water then would there be more NO3 as you increase biological filtration?


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then would there be more NO3 as you increase biological filtration?
Hm, that is a trick question

Answer:

a) Yes: In general, more bio filter = more NO3
b) No: As the tank should have enough bacteria to convert all NO2 to NO3 already, with or without the second filter.

Ingo


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Almost there. Does the respiration of the bacteria depend on how much nh3,no2 there is in the water. In other words does a smaller bacteria colony produce more no3 in a tank with more waste then a bigger bacterial colony in a tank with less waste?

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does a smaller bacteria colony produce more no3 in a tank with more waste then a bigger bacterial colony in a tank with less waste?


The question is not possible, as the size of the bacteria colony directly depends on the amount of waste.

Less waste = less bacteria

As such, there can never be less bacteria and more waste, except during a brief period where the colony needs to grow while more waste is produced.

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The question is not possible, as the size of the bacteria colony directly depends on the amount of waste.

Well if that was the case, wouldn't there always be enough biological filtration to deal with any amount of waste. It would simply increase on the substrate, media, glass, rocks, etc.... and would make the point of adding more capacity mute.

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Well,

Then I would rather see the original question rephrased to something like this:

"If the bacteria colony that is available in a tank is not large enough for the waste produced, will there be more NO3 than if the colony would be large enough?"

In this case, the answer would be no, as less bacteria produce less NO3.

In any case, I would like to raise an additional question:

"If plants prefer Ammonia over NO3, wouldn't plants suck of the Ammonia before the bacteria colony can convert it to NO2 and then to NO3?"

Ingo


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tetratech
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In this case, the answer would be no, as less bacteria produces less NO3

O.K. So if that's true as you add bio capacity the more NO3 you have being produced in the tank to convert nh3. So if that's the case how would adding NO3 cause Algae?

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So if that's the case how would adding NO3 cause Algae?
Well, the only way I could think of why this would happen is if other macros or elements of the micros are out of sink, aka limiting factors.

But - and only if another thing we once concluded is true - why would I not have enough biofilter inside the tank as it is given that 2 days of power outage did not seem to cause any issues in the tank?

Ingo


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There is another dimension to the problem you guys aren't thinking about. Your filter can only bring so much ammonia per unit of TIME to your biofilter. It's very possible that your bacteria population is quite large enough to reduce all the ammonia that is brought to it into nitrate. However, your filter might not be bringing all the ammonia to your bacteria. That's the reason for another filter, not that there isn't enough substrate for bacteria, but that the filter isn't quite doing the job. You are increasint the turnover RATE.

"If plants prefer Ammonia over NO3, wouldn't plants suck of the Ammonia before the bacteria colony can convert it to NO2 and then to NO3?"

No, because plants will use a VERY small amount of ammonia. Actual ammonia is probably like a treat that is few and far between, even in your tank, just trace amounts are causing the problem. They will still get the majority of their N from nitrate.

But - and only if another thing we once concluded is true - why would I not have enough biofilter inside the tank as it is given that 2 days of power outage did not seem to cause any issues in the tank?

I thought there was an increased amount of algae since then even though the plants picked up reasonable quick? I would say that you weren't feeding and the fish probably weren't producing as much waste as normal, and the bacteria in the tank was enough to handle the situation.....for the most part. Still there were probably trace amounts of ammonia left over from the problem that your filter is having a hard time catching up with, and that's what caused the algae.

Does the respiration of the bacteria depend on how much nh3,no2 there is in the water.

Yes, when you are talking about the entire colony, not the individual. Meaning there is less respiration when there is less ammonia and nitrite because there is a smaller population of bacteria, not because each bacteria is doing less.

In other words does a smaller bacteria colony produce more no3 in a tank with more waste then a bigger bacterial colony in a tank with less waste?

My answer to this: is if Ingo does have trace amounts of NH3/4 in his tank then adding another filter will increase the amount nitrate in the tank. Not so much because of a much greater number of bacteria, but because of an increased RATE at which ammonia is being rbought to the bacteria. With another filter, trace ammonia and nitrite get to the filters faster so they can break it down faster.

That's my hypothesis anyways. Or rude interruption as others might call it



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Well I could check, but I thought the general census was that two days really isn't enough time to see any significant changes. The reason I started the thread was to see reaction to no3 levels caused by bacteria. If no3 causes algae then their is a difference between the no3 we ad and the organic no3 produced.

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EditedEdited by mattyboombatty
Tetratech, I think you are trying to undercut the entire organic chemistry field. Some people might not like that.

But really the only difference is the source. To us, to plants, to fish, and of course the algae, NO3 is NO3(which KNO3 is once it's in solution).

EDIT: I think this is the part where bensaf comes in and smacks us around a bit and tells us what really causes algae.



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Matty,

Didn't see your thread when I posted. Anyway that's more like it. I was just kinda building up to something before and you didn't follow suit. It's that DIY in you.

Anyway I agree with much of what you said, but in a big tank isn't he majority of the biofilter in the tank itself and not for example in the canister. I don't know the biofilter capacity of gravel, plants vs the for example eheim efhisubstrate. By the way eco is lava rock and supposely had a pretty good bio capacity in it's own right?

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but in a big tank isn't he majority of the biofilter in the tank itself


I think it depends on the stocking of said tank. I think the external filter's biostuffs can be vital or it can be pointless. Whenever anybody comes into our store I stress the stuff. Why? Cause I know most people are in the tanks for looks. meaning they will overstock their tank for more "color". That means more waste, cause most people also overfeed on a large scale. Therefore, biostuffs in the filter become vitally important.



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OK,

You are loosing me there in your theoretical games (although I like them, but I can't get the point). One thing is almost for sure: When I add the new filter I will limit the flow rate on both. As such, based on what Matty says, I probably will not be any better off than with one on high flow rate as I bring just as much ammonia to the bacteria as I do now.

Ingo


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On a different note:

The storm that is currently going on here, Ernesto right, is bringing mostly rain but also some wind. This in not that good as we still have some tree damages from the storm when we had the two day power outage. Branches and even larger pieces of trees are still coming down and I would not be too surprised if we will lose the power again.

This is a view from our house onto the street. This tree cracked a little in the main storm, and today it broke

Attached Image:

TIMBER !!!



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What a beautiful tree. So sad to see such a great whack of down like that.

Good though, that nothing fell on your house. Hope everything will be ok this time & no power loss, or anything worse.

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Just wondering, how big are your pearl gouramis?
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Robyn - I guess they will have to take down the tree on the right completely as half of the main branch came off while the other half is still on with a severely weakened (in diameter) trunk.

coop - When I got them they were both (one male one female) maybe about 2 inches. Now the male is maybe close to 4 and the female a little over 3. I will post a picture of the male in a short while, so stay tuned


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Weekly Tank Update - Week 49

This week saw no special event with regards to this tank, I continued the 50ml Excel treatment to combat BBA. Most of it is gone by now, but at the same time I see an influx of green hair algae, in particular on the Anubias leaves. I assume one is directly related to the other but currently I am at a loss on what to adjust to combat it. My conclusion is that I will add another filter and see if that helps.

Once I place the second filter on the tank I will also rearrange the plants themselves, maybe even cut up the wood some more and change its position.

Here is the tank last weekend:

Attached Image:

Last Week



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Although I didn't plan to do much trimming this week, I could not avoid having to do more than I planned for. The Star Grass group had grown to the surface and was beginning to create so much shade at its own bottom that a die-off was very likely, and as such a fouling of the water. The same is true for the Hygro Group, its height started to influence the water flow and duck weed on the surface all the way to the right started to die off en masse. Both groups receiced a major trim.

This picture was taken with the light unit still pushed towards the back for the maintenance, I simply forgot to move it back forwards after I was done.

Attached Image:

Tank Now



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The Star Grass is still there, just very short again. After I removed the plants I notices that a major trim was required to ensure that only "good" parts remain.

Here is a shot from an angle showing the short group:

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Star Grass



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Now I only have a few pictures of fishies to show and then my update is done for today.

First of an Espei. Not because it is such a nice shot but to tell that the reduce size group is doing fine. I see way more swimming action than before and more interaction on a personal level between the members of the group. I have seen one younger fish that may be around 1 month old (maybe a little more), that means that repopulation is still going on.

Attached Image:

Espei



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Here is look at 5 of my 6 Rainbows, in attack formation

No, they actually don't attack anybody in the tank. I believe they evaluate leadership within the group and the acceptance of such by going into a formation like the one in the picture:

Attached Image:

Rainbows I



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Here is a closer look at that group, it is actually not the same shot than the one before but maybe has been taken a few seconds later. As one can see, the group hasn't moved to much, ergo - the group has a stable hierarchy.

I think it was Wings who mentioned the splashing of his Rainbows, but I can second that observation. With great frequency so I get water splashed out of the tank during feeding, they behave almost like trout

Attached Image:

Rainbows II



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Last but not least, by chance I got a nicer shot of my male pearl. Usually he is either all the way on top of the tank, or doesn't show me his side, or hiding in the plants after a water change (he is a chicken in some way, although he is the boss of the tank).

Coop, if you are thinking about getting them, I find them to be beautiful fishies. I don't know if anyone here had them before (I know bensaf does), I find their eating habit very interesting as well. When I add flakes to the tank they are right there in the mix and they even let me touch them during that time. All that time their mouth forms the letter O, it looks like they are singing in a chorus. Just cute

That is it for today,

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Male Pearl



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I can definitely attest to the pearls being nice fish. I only had one back in my 38G, and was delicate, yet substantial at the same time.

I do wish that you'd turn the filters all the way up when you get the new one. Point the spray bars at the glass and it will deflect nicely. I do think this will help, but only if you are actually increasing the amount of filtration going on.



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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Beautiful pics of your fish, as always. Your tank is looking pretty sharp too.

So your pearl is the boss. I thought the boss was your apisto?

Such a shame too, that you will lose that beautiful tree outside your house.

Cheers
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Thanks for the comments

Matty - See, that is where you and tetratech are not in sink, or at least I interpret it this way. Tetratech stated that simply the fact of additional surface for bacteria will be sufficient. And I can see why that would be. If the flow rate is slower then there should be more "contact time" between filter material and ammonia (for example). This should help settle more bacteria than it does now.

Robyn - Well, the Apisto is the lord of the underworld, while the pearl is the ruler of heavens. The only time they get together is during feeding and the Pearls have no problems simply swimming over the Apistos to grab first bites. As such I declare him the ultimate king of the whole tank universe. He never shows off to any other fish than his wife, that is not needed if you are that much bigger I guess. The male Apisto though shows off to the Rainbows who once in a while get in his way.

Ingo


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EditedEdited by tetratech
Matty - See, that is where you and tetratech are not in sink, or at least I interpret it this way. Tetratech stated that simply the fact of additional surface for bacteria will be sufficient. And I can see why that would be. If the flow rate is slower then there should be more "contact time" between filter material and ammonia (for example). This should help settle more bacteria than it does now.


This I believe is the philosophy behind Eheim. Many Eheim canister filters that are used for planted aquaria have much less flow than other brands. If you compare flow rates beteen for example Eheim and Fluval the Fluvals have much higher GPH for the same size tank. For example:

100 Gallon Tank Max: Eheim Pro 2026 - 250gph / Fluval 405 - 340gph

70/80 Gallon Tank Max: Eheim Ecco 2236 - 185pgh / Fluval 305 - 260gph

As you can see the Fluval 305 which is actually rated up to 70 gallons has more flow than the Eheim Pro 2026 rated to 100 gallons.

The contact between the water and media is much better in the eheim thus increasing bio-filtration. I believe this is based on not only reduced flow, but better contact. I don't know about the 2026, but the ecco is one big round basket on top of each other filled with biomedia not sponges. There is a sponge on top and bottom but inbetween it's all efhisubstrate. The Fluvals on the other hand have split baskets and the water is split between going over the biomedia and the big sponge they give you which is more for mechanical filtration than biological.



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Yup,

That is pretty much how I remembered what you explained to me a while ago, and it makes perfect sense to me.

To sum it up:

The duration of the exposure to the biological filter is more important than the number of times the water flows past it. And having then about 10 pounds of biofilter in the two filters should be enough to house as much bacteria as would be neede to clean out the Raritan river (insider joke in NJ, as it is really dirty, right NowherMan6?).

Ingo


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The Fluvals on the other hand have split baskets and the water is split between going over the biomedia and the big sponge they give you


Well this isn't exactly true. The water is forced through the sponges, then into the baskets. The water is never split between the two. If you wanted to fill all the trays with biomedia, you could. And all the water that is filtered would go through that media.

Personally, I don't beleive in extra "contact time" I believe in big baskets of biomedia and higher flow rates. Big baskets means more surface area and therefore more chances for bacteria to grow and be able to "catch" ammonia. Higher flow rates means more water is brought by the bacteria, and with more water comes more ammonia, again more chances for the bacteria to catch some ammonia. If the same water sits next to the bacteria, clean of waste, what good does that do?

I think eheims are good because they have big baskets, not because of reduced flow rates. That's aside from the fact that they just make a quality peice of equipment. I think the same filter would be better with more flow.

All this is within reason. I wouldn't recommend blowing your fish out of the water, obviously. I think the case is, more often than not, that there is too little flow going on in tanks.



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Double Post Matty

Well, I hear you as well, and blowing the fish out of the water was actually one of my concerns. That is how the slow flow rate discussion actually started a while back when tetratech tried to convince me that I need another filter.

I always meant to say this, but somehow always forgot, so here it goes. I also think that I have more waste in the tank because the filter intake is behind layers of plants and loads of stuff gets caught in the plants and never reaches the filter. What do you think about that theory (made just Ingo crazy talk)?

Ingo


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tetratech
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Well this isn't exactly true. The water is forced through the sponges, then into the baskets. The water is never split between the two. If you wanted to fill all the trays with biomedia, you could. And all the water that is filtered would go through that media.

Half of the chamber of the fluvals I know (unless the new ones are different) have a basket to hold media like carbon or ceramic (I believe the Fluvals come with noodles) and the other half has a vertical type alignment that does not hold loose or bagged media, but holds a big vertical sponge running the entire height of the chamber. This sponge is pretty much devoted to mechanical filtration (of course you'll get bio filtration too, but it certainly isn't as efficient as noodles or ceramic type media.) So the capacity for the filter to have as much bio filtration as the eheim is reduced simply by volume. I still beleive the contact time with the media increases bio filtration efficiency. Why would eheim work on reduced flow. They are the filter of choice in hardcore planted aquaria by probably 80% of enthusiasts. I have only 185 gph on my tank and my filter is going up 3 feet and I have the flow reduced further buy a uv on the return side.

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Why would eheim work on reduced flow.


I answered that in my post, the media trays are bigger than fluvals and whatnot. Surface area is part of the equation, along with flow. IMO(that's all just opinion) the more flow the more ammonia that is brought to the bacteria.

If contact time is all that's important, answer this: Why increase the flow rates on filters designed for larger tanks? based on the contact time theory, you'd just make a larger basket.

Half of the chamber of the fluvals I know (unless the new ones are different) have a basket to hold media like carbon or ceramic (I believe the Fluvals come with noodles) and the other half has a vertical type alignment that does not hold loose or bagged media, but holds a big vertical sponge running the entire height of the chamber.


It's not half and half. It's more like 1/3 mechanical to 2/3 baskets(and if you supe up the mech area it's a darn good filter). I'm still in agreement with you though, that out of the box eheim probably has better management of internal space, which I said in my previous post(or two posts ).

I also think that I have more waste in the tank because the filter intake is behind layers of plants and loads of stuff gets caught in the plants and never reaches the filter.

This is basically reduced flow. It sounds like a pretty sound theory to me . The real threat, however, is a dissolved particle that can't get caught in the plants, but can be slowed down if leaves clog the intake etc.



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EditedEdited by tetratech
Matty,

This is part of a story from an aquariumfish.com article

"Canister filters, like undergravel filters, are excellent sites for biological filtration. Water travels at a relatively leisurely pace through the filter and is in prolonged contact with a large volume of filter material, which acts as a substrate for colonies of nitrifying bacteria. The greater the surface area available for the bacteria, the larger the potential bacteria population. The longer the water is in contact with the filter medium, within reason of course, the greater the potential efficiency of the nitrification process. Thus, a large-volume canister filter with a relatively low flow rate provides a superb set of conditions for the two-step conversion of ammonia to nitrate. A good rule of thumb for filter flow rates is no more than four or five tank volumes per hour."

Here's another one from a scientific site


"The longer the better"

"Broadly speaking, the effectiveness of biological filtration is improved the longer the 'polluted' water is held in the filter - i.e. the longer the retention time. The most time-consuming process in filtration is the breakdown of dissolved organic carbon compounds into simple inorganic compounds. These compounds are ultimately incorporated back into living organisms. This complex chain of processes is not instantaneous and will, even under ideal circumstances, take some time."


The above is pretty much my argument. The Eheims not ony have the reduce flow but the water goes right through all the media baskets while the fluvals have the split side and some of the water by-passes the bio media. The increased flows in bigger tanks are more a factor of mechanical filtration than bio, although I beleive there are still flow requirments to move things along.


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A good rule of thumb for filter flow rates is no more than four or five tank volumes per hour

Which eheims don't come close to.

This complex chain of processes is not instantaneous and will, even under ideal circumstances, take some time.


Well I read this article, which has a lot of calculations, and I went ahead and tried one out. The author says we are aiming for 15 minutes(.25hr) of "contact time" for clean water.

This is the equation: filter retention time = filter size/pump rate

So in the case of the eheim pro 2026 with a volume of 1.3G and a flow rate of 251g/h, the equation goes like this:

Contact time = (1.3g)/(251g/h)
Contact time = .00517hours or 19 seconds

My findings show that for proper contact time this guy is asking for either a same size canister with a flow rate of 5.2gph(1.3/5.2 = .25), or a 63 gallon filter(63/251 = .25) with the same flow rate. Souns pretty logical.



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I was asking about their size because i have 2, 2inch females and a 3 inch male. My male looks like yours sorta but its got more orange on the chest and a round dorsal
The dorsal fin not being pointed has got me confused.
maybe its just genetics.
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EditedEdited by tetratech
Which eheims don't come close to.

A good rule of thumb for filter flow rates is no more than four or five tank volumes per hour

Matty, I think you missed the operate word:
"no more than"

Contact time = (1.3g)/(251g/h)
Contact time = .00517hours or 19 seconds
My findings show that for proper contact time this guy is asking for either a same size canister with a flow rate of 5.2gph(1.3/5.2 = .25), or a 63 gallon filter(63/251

Here I picture Mattyboombatty, going into a backroom of his fishstore marked "Beyond Fishkeeping" and doing all kinds of strange and unusual experiments.

Your obviously as stubborn as me

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coop - Whatever happened to your initial question? Did you delete it? If so, why? Yeah, I was wondering when my male's chest will turn orange more than it is, I also have seen them much brighter than this before. He is not fully grown yet though, maybe that is why.

Matty - I may have some issues with your source for the specs on the filter flowrate and volume, but they are minor. And I agree that 15 minutes of contact time sound "a little long" (where does this value come from anyway). But here is food for thought:

If the contact time is derived from media volume divided by flowrate, then wouldn't a slower flow rate increase that contact time (as you state as well when saying one would have to slow down the filter to about 5gph)? And isn't that what tetratech implied, a slower rate increases contact?

I think we are spinning around in a circle as basically we all agree on something, but can't quite put the finger on it. Ah, now I know: Having a second filter is a good idea

Ingo


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tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
Doesn't anyone sleep around here

Ah, now I know: Having a second filter is a good idea

And best of all it's an EHEIM!


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Yeah Baby, an Eheim
Doesn't anyone sleep around here
I am known to be an early riser, but I have to say that I was about to ask you a question like that. I guess you don't need that much sleep anymore with your old age .

Ingo


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Matty - I may have some issues with your source for the specs on the filter flowrate and volume

I got them here if they are wrong, I can do the equations with the correct specs if someone has them.

(where does this value come from anyway)


This is tetratechs article. It's about pond stuff, but really I think it's an article on a guy who has done waste management. I've heard a lot of this from a friend who is in engineering who took courses on waste water treatment. It's for seriously polluted water, which nobody should have in their fish tank. Oh read the whole thing, cause at the bottom it tells you how important flow rate is.

And isn't that what tetratech implied, a slower rate increases contact?

Yes, but I'm trying to show you what a proper contact time is, how to get it, and how very far away from it any of our filters are(even the "best" ones). Therefore, this can't be as important as we thought if we've gotten by on severely reduced contact time for all these years.

I'm going to take this statement:

A good rule of thumb for filter flow rates is no more than four or five tank volumes per hour


and this one(again from tetratechs article):

the pond flow rate is dependent on the total ammonia produced within the system, With higher stocking densities there has to be a corresponding increase in flow rate.


and mix them together. The first statement says we can't go above 4-5 times turnover rate. The second says, the more flow through the filter the more ammonia you are going to be able to reduce. So here it is: "The more flow provided by your filter, up to 4-5 x turnover per hour, the more ammonia your filter can reduce." Also, if you are willing to believe it, your contact time needs to be 15 minutes.

So lets make up a dream filter, one that this fish doc prescribes. For LF's 125g tank: 4x turnover seems ideal. That's 500gph. And 15 min for contact time. X = filter size.

.25hr = Xg/500g/hr
Xg = .25hr*500g/hr
Filter size = (you guessed it ) a 125g tank.

So LF, to get rid of your ammonia and your algae problem, you need to drill your tank and get a 125g sump. Simply getting another eheim won't cut it.

I still want to compare contact times between two of our filters, but at this point I'm just being silly I guess and taking up too much of Ingo's thread, so I'll quit being stubborn, and agree that Ingo needs another filter(albeit a 125g one).

On a side note, I do have about a 30g filter on my 30g sw tank which, from the return pump probably gets 4-5 x turnover rate. Maybe that's why I have a stable system there.



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Matty,
I respect your knowledge for aquaria immensely, but the bottom line is reduced flow increases contact with bio-filtration along with the way the water passes through the media. There is less bi-pass with an eheim compared to the fluvals I've always know.

A good rule of thumb for filter flow rates is no more than four or five tank volumes per hour

Your ready this in reverse. What it's saying is it shouldn't be "more than" 4 to 5 times, not that 4 to 5 times is what to shoot for. Are you sure we are on the same page. I'm talking about bio-filtration. Mabye if you have large fish you need more flow to get more solid waster out of the tank and into the sponges and pads.

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Post InfoPosted 04-Sep-2006 20:43Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by mattyboombatty
I'm just trying to show you my side of the arguement. I've read your posts and sources and tried to make valid points. You were, but your last post is just "I'm right and you're wrong" so we'll quit there. I don't want to get people upset over a technical disagreement and I don't want to kill Ingo's thread after so many pages . You know how to take care of your tanks better than most(probably including me) and all that matters is your fish and plants are happy which they are. Honestly, there's more than one way to skin two birds with one stone. Or is it don't count your chickens in a glass house? I can't remember. Anywho, good day to ya.

EDIT: Oh, and my last post was mostly sarcastic, I realize that in all reality another filter will probably help LF out, and a 125 sump is silly business.



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Aaaannnyyyyway,

What's the matter with you guys. Don't you dare to start a war here .

Yes, you two have different opinions, and I believe that is ok. Well, of course that leaves me in the middle

Big Al f*ed up, somehow my order did not seem to have gone through as I see it still sitting in the online site (which is messed up like hell these days, at least the whole order part of it - including order history). I had to order over phone as I had a gift certificate and these cannot be redeemed online

And all day there was nobody to answer the phone there, even the voice that comes on was cut off in the beginning, starting like "Online is not available ..." Why was "Big Al's" cut off? Did they fold? The site didn't say they were closed today, it says the only day off is July, 4th.

So, and now I want entries from both of you supporting me in the rant about Big Al's

Ingo
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