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See that's the danger If your ph is 6.2 and your kh is 2 you have a co2 of 38ppm not 90ppm.

If your ph was 6.0 and your kh still 2 than you have a co2 of 60pmm, big difference.

Now if your ph is 6.0 and your kh is 3, now you have a co2 ppm of 90. Wht if your kh is really 2.5, see what I mean.





My Scapes

more fish
less plants
plants not established

So what's the problem .
Waste, Mass and all that ....light. Now repeat after me "Sung to the tune of all the Jazz" Waste, mass and all that light, waste, mass and all that light.

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Now if your ph is 6.0 and your kh is 3, now you have a co2 ppm of 90. Wht if your kh is really 2.5, see what I mean.

Exactly, that's why I'm mad as heck about these test kits, I have no idea. The shade of yellow is between the shades on the chart. Impossible to know.Any more of this and I'm going to just crank the CO2, test kits be damned. I'm almost at the breaking point.

Waste, Mass and all that ....light. Now repeat after me "Sung to the tune of all the Jazz" Waste, mass and all that light, waste, mass and all that light.

Tetra, you've clearly gone mad with power due to the success of your tank. Come down from the edge....

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Back in the saddle!

due to the success of your tank

Well, it is a pretty tank I have to say

But don't worry, I assume it is just a question of time until the S hits the F . The Wisteria will revolt and decides that it deserves to be the tallest plant in the tank. The Riccia will have enough of being put in a hairnet and cuts itself lose. The oh so secret Stellata turns into a bean stalk, and the Star Grass into mush because it can't stand the dancing in front of the tank.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

A guy posts some pics of his tank and the master makes some nice comments and this is what I get:

Oh tetra, when your tank is covered in slimy brown staghorn and thread alage we'll look back and say that your hubris was your downfall. Reminds me of that famous ending line in Oedipus rex

.

But don't worry, I assume it is just a question of time until the S hits the F . The Wisteria will revolt and decides that it deserves to be the tallest plant in the tank. The Riccia will have enough of being put in a hairnet and cuts itself lose. The oh so secret Stellata turns into a bean stalk, and the Star Grass into mush because it can't stand the dancing in front of the tank.

And I thought wes were friends Don't worry you protists lovers, I'll get even

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What do you expect, you're the best of the best now. reminds me of that Far Side cartoon about the cowboy ping-pong players. The old grizzled vet goes "well kid, ya beat me - but now every paddle packin' player in the west lookin to make a name for himself is gonna come lookin' for you - welcome to hell, kid!" (please tell me I'm not the only one who likes the Far Side... )

Well tetra, every foreceps packin' plant person from Queensland to Queens, NY is gonna come lookin for ya...

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Back in the saddle!

You guys are seriously cracking me up!

Seriously though, I think tetra (aka grand wizard, mr. all that, etc. ) has a point about lights. In my tanks I've observed that as soon as I upgrade them to the higher light territory (>2.5wpg), there's a very delicate balance between good plant growth and algae appearance (which I haven't quite figured out yet ), all factors (plant mass, fish mass, ferts, CO2) being equal (or similar). In my lower light tanks, I get little to no visible algae, and even when I do, it's easily fixed. With higher light, there's less margin for error, so to speak.

Then again, maybe I'm still dreaming (just got up).

-P

Nowher


I guess I'll have to be really careful what I say, cause you all will be gunning for me at the Fish Profile Corral.


Upikabu,
100% correct with the lighting. I mean if you have enough plants and the conditions are good the plants will take advantage of the extra light and grow better, but if the other conditions aren't "upgraded" to take advantage of the new light then that's a big crack for the protist army to march on Rome. Speaking of Rome, I hung up a pic of ChaosMaximus's tank as motivation to keep up with my maintenance and fert schedule. I think if nowher and LF hang up his pic too, they'll feel a whole lot better about their tanks. Sorry Chaos




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We all know that EI says a tenth of N in P (20ppm N and 2ppm P) should be more then the plants can "eat". There seems to be zero advantage (and maybe loads of disadvantages) to being over that level. So, why would I dose any, even tiny, amount?

There's no way you will find that sweet spot in the dosing routine if you stop, start, stop, start. You will be condemned to eternal suffering not knowing how much to dose. I'd say that if you want to go ahead and zero the tank for the next two weeks, just start up with really slow dosing from there, like I said as little as .15ppm a day If you think that's all your plants need beyond what's in the tap. I'm only going to test until I figure out how much I need beyond what's in the tap.


IMO, Test kits are good enough to be taken with a grain of salt. The NO3 and PO4 test kits can be "calibrated" by testing them with a known solution made using Chuck's calculator. Tom Barr has done all the research to show us we don't need exact values for this stuff anyways. This is only to double check our work. First, we have Tom's work to show us with the use of large water changes, an average can be maintained. Then we have the plants to show us if something is amiss. And lastly we have the test kits to explain maybe why something is up.

I feel your pain with the pH test kits, Nowherman. These things are awful hard to read. If the color in the tube is between colors in the chart, then the number is between those. But I have a hard time telling which colors it's inbetween. I had a thread about a week ago about getting a pH controller(By the way LF I'll give you $50 for that thing). The thing with this is that we do want to be exact, and IMO the resolution on the liquid test kits is nowhere near where we need it to be. This is due to the logarithmic nature of the pH scale. A small difference and you can be WAAAAY off.

Oh, and did someone say

St. Louis Blues....

?(sorry I had to)



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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

How would you advise proceeding?

How to proceed without test kits is easy enough. Just add a known quantity of nutrients each week. Then you are in control.

Observing the tank will pretty much show the rest.

Plants like Hygro will show N and K deficiencies very quickly. Holes in old leaves will show lack of K, fall off or yellowing of old leaves will show a lack of N. Plants like Mayacca or red plants will show FE levels by their color.
Want to be sure the Co2 is good. Keep upping it until the fish show a sign of dis-comfort then pull it back just a notch. Or watch the growth, speed size etc, appearance of green spot or BBA will indicate the Co2 is not as good as it should be.
Still getting green spot algae P can be pushed higher.

The test kits are inaccurate to start with, the color charts are difficult to read etc.

Look at the difference in the color and growth in tetras tank (envy is a terrible things boys, leave him be ) since he added more nutrients.

Matty makes a good point that constant chopping and changing of routines is bad for both the tank and you. Stability is important for the tank, constant change makes it diffult to pinpoint issues, you get lost easily.

Usually upping things solve problems, reducing rarely does, more often then not it creates new problems.

I'm sure LF's problems are temporary. Theres a big job done, lot's of mulm kicked in the water. Mulm will cause problems, a big clean up should be done at least once a year. BGA for example can use it for carbonate. I didn't like the daily dosing routine.

I'm sure by upping the N (as a reference to above, his reineckii was doing bad, it's doing better now since he added more N, I'm telling you from experience that if N is low eineckii will stunt and twist and curl it's leaves like nobody, give it N and it'll right itself easy enough. See I do pay attention These are the little things I always look for when somebody is having a problem. I don't go for the fanciful theories. Sometimes you guys can't see the woods for the trees, except for tetra of course, he's great ), keeping the Co2 up and keeping everything stable will stop it. In the meantime hassle it. Remove what you can, Excel blast the rest.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

envy is a terrible things boys, leave him be

Would it be too awful of a pun to say that I'm literally green with envy over Tetra's tank?

Seriously though, he's come a long way following EI, certainly a far cry from turning the old 46 into a brewery tank. He certainly found his way to the path we're all looking for. We owe him a Guiness, or at least a Murphy's

Oh, and I guess we owe Tom Barr one too, for ya know, coming up with the whole EI thing...

I just tossed my pH kit in the garbage with some plant clippings. We'll see where this goes.

Oh and Matty- great to see another hockey fan on the boards Tough going for your Blues right now...

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Back in the saddle!

you get lost easily

Sure do

Well, this was fun again

Anyway,

- I am back on the bi-daily fert routine with macros one and micros the other day, so that should give more stability (although I am most certain that it was Bensaf who once told me that going to daily would be more stable .
- I don't think I can (or want to) do too much about the light as I have the second row on for 3 hours only. I think in this phase my plants need it to re-establish themselves. Half the light is only around 1.5wpg.
- Removing much of the existing algae creates a problem on the Helferi as I would have to cut off almost all leaves. Same counts for the Red Rubin Sword and half the Anubias leaves. How would I go about the wood and rock algae? Take a pad and rub it as good as I can? I cannot remove these entities.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

certainly a far cry from turning the old 46 into a brewery tank
Had to get that jab in didn't ya nowher.

Since you brought it up, here's a pic of me attempting to make black and tans in my kitchen. I think we should have a horror tank thread rated "r" for revolting. I think this pic would quality and I could name a few others


Attached Image:


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How would I go about the wood and rock algae? Take a pad and rub it as good as I can? I cannot remove these entities.

Yes, you should be able to get one of those algae scrubber pads pretty cheap. Just be gentle and try not to rock the boat too much and it should come off.

As for the leaves, maybe take as much by hand and then... well, in theory, shouldn't the algae just die off as conditions improve

Had to get that jab in didn't ya nowher.

It wasn't a jab, it's one of my favorite FP member incidents. I didn't think it was as funny until I actually did DIY co2 myself and you realize the mix actually smells just like beer.

Great idea for a thread, start it up in GF

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Back in the saddle!

Yeah,

I guess looking at my tank at this stage and then comparing it to others (like the brewery above, for example) should make me feel better as it really isn't all that bad

But speaking off bad, or what not. I was thinking about lights and nutrients and what not this morning on the bus to work and I remembered an old entry from Bensaf where he reacted to my mass-interference (changing 15 things at the same time) by saying that even if the situation is improving I would never know why. So true

As such, it seems to be actually a good idea that the only parameter that I am changing right now is Phosphates. If it doesn't help, oh well - at least we can explicitly eliminate this one from the culprit list. Which reminds me - You all seem to agree that lowering my P the way I do it would not be good. I really would appreciate if you could help me out and answer the following questions:

1) Did you ever have knowingly 5ppm (or more) of P in your tank?
2) If so, did you have more algae than usual at that time?
3) Hypothetically speaking, plants take up nutrients. Do you belive they would take up more P when there are 5ppm in the water rather than 2ppm?
4) If not, why would it matter in what form a reduction of P is achieved (stop of adding P vs. adding tiny amounts)?

This are my nagging questions, I hope you don't mind

Thanks in advance,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

How would I go about the wood and rock algae? Take a pad and rub it as good as I can? I cannot remove these entities

I'm looking for a smily with a violin, but I can't find one. Not to rub it in, but all my hardscape is
removable

Bu seriously, how come you don't have a bigger clean up crew in your tank, I know it's not going to solve the problem. Will the gourmai and/or rainbows eat them. Supposely Cherry shrimps eat a wide variety of algae and are very durable.

Edit: Nowher I think I will start that thread, it can even be a poll, like most horrific tank situation.

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A thread of horrors, now there's one thread were I wouldn't have a suitable photo

Without trimming the leaves , try applying the Ecel onto the algae directly using a syringe.

1) Did you ever have knowingly 5ppm (or more) of P in your tank?

I have never owned a phosphate test kit. I have never tested for phosphate. I have no idea how much phosphate I have. It could be 1ppm , it could be 10ppm.I do know I add about 5ppm a week ! That's all I really need to know. I used to have to clean the glass a couple a times a week. I hardly ever clean it now.

2) If so, did you have more algae than usual at that time?

Dunno, can somebody post a photo of algae, I've forgotten what it looks like
I do know that green spot algae disappeared when I added a lot of P and was never replced by any other forms.

3) Hypothetically speaking, plants take up nutrients. Do you belive they would take up more P when there are 5ppm in the water rather than 2ppm?

You miss a very important point about nutrients. Don't obsess on uptake rates or what's left behind. It doesn't matter if growth is fast or slow. It doesn't matter if the tank is full of heavy nutrient consuming plants or slow low consuming ones 9once the tank is established). It doesn't matter if there's an excess of 1 ppm or 5ppm of P. What is vital is that there is non limiting growth, whether it be fast or slow. It's niches. Non limiting growth leaves no room for algae. Repeat after me algae do not need an excess of nutrients It's illogical. They need a gap, an opening. Non limiting growth of plants keeps this door firmly shut.

The only way to be certain that you have non limiting conditions is to add the nutrients yourself. Regularly. Keep the door shut. No need for test kits.With kits there will always always be a degree of uncertainty. By adding the nutrients you remove that uncertainty.

By changing things slowly and allowing things to develop you can focus in on issues.

Ladies and gentlemen,Elvis has left the building

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Interesting, LF and Nowher are both from Jersey.
O.K. we'll have to work around it. Do everything Bensaf has described but use bottled water from this point forward.


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Gang,

Don't misunderstand my questions about this P thing as me trying to argue just for the argument sake. I really try to understand it. So please bear with me, if you have to give me the ole Violin so be it, but keep an open mind here. Call it my inexperience, or my tendency to take words in a foreign language (yes, remember - this is my second language) too literally, but I see nobody here who knows of having 5ppm of P and had no algae issues with it. Or call me crazy, I don't mind as long as you at least try to understand where I am coming from with this stuff.

Here are some extracts from Tom Barr's Estimative Index:

"Old myths still abound claiming excess PO4 in tap water causes algae, this has clearly been shown by many hobbyist to be patently false. The tap water has nutrients in it, then you do not have to dose these nearly as much, this is actually a good thing! Why take something out and then add it back again?"

He is not saying how much is considered excess that would not cause algae, though. But he says that if it is in the tab water then you don't have to add it (as much).

Then, in his section about recommended values:

"PO4 range 1.0-3.0 ppm"

And he continues:

"I have added to almost 3ppm of PO4 consistently week after week. Plant's response is incredible." And he says "At some point the plants will not take up any more traces. Same can be said for PO4."

Take the last statement and tag on Bensaf's statement of "Repeat after me algae do not need an excess of nutrients It's illogical. They need a gap, an opening. Non limiting growth of plants keeps this door firmly shut."

Wouldn't that be the opening? Tom never speaks of more than 3ppm of P, and he mentions that there is an uptake limit. The gap between that limit and the currently available 5ppm is the gap, the opening.

Further, Tom writes:

"By knowing what the tap water is comprised of and giving the water company a call to find out what the PO4, NO3, K, and Fe levels are, you can replace the water with water changes and use plain old chemistry or Chuck's calculator to figure out what you need for your nutrient levels without a test kit."

OK - P in my tab is 2ppm, right within his range. The conclusion would be that additional P is only required if P falls based on uptake. This is further supported by his next statement:

"The other issue about folks that often do not add macro nutrients/traces etc, is many do large water changes. These folks often do not know what their tap water has in it. If it is rich in NO3 and PO4 like many regions of the USA and Europe, then each week they do a large water change, they are adding nutrients and CO2. People wondered why my plants did so well with the water changes I did each week and when they tested found high levels of PO4, I was adding KNO3 and lots of traces and high light and high trace dosing and had no algae and dramatic plant health and growth."

But he ends with a comment in a question that states (well known to all of us, as Bensaf uses this as his punch line ): "It assumes that deficencies, not excess causes algae." Bu yet again, he never spoke of more than 3ppm of P.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

Three interesting paragraphs pulled from the EI Article.

"truthfully do not know what levels of NO3 and PO4 (for example) cause problems for plants or induce algae in a fully planted tank. NO3 levels above 40ppm can cause fish health issues. PO4 at very high levels can influence alkalinity (KH) above 5ppm-10ppm."
Has your KH been influenced?

"It is one of the biggest unknown variables in keeping planted tanks, watts/gallon does not tell you much, but rough guides are fine if the aquarist maintain the CO2 and nutrient levels well....An important aspect of this method is the knowledge that excess nutrients do not cause algae blooms as so many authors in the past and many today still maintain without having tested this critically in aquariums with a healthy plant biomass. It is a welcomed relief knowing that “excess” phosphate, nitrate and iron do not cause algae blooms."
Key word here "healthy plant biomass". So here he does leave the door open about excess nutrients and plant mass.

"For many years this has been the assumption but it is incorrect. Ammonium (NH4+) at low levels have been the primary causative agent for algae blooms in terms of an "excess" nutrient. This is why a planted tank using CO2 with moderate to high lighting cannot have enough nitrogen supplied by adding progressively more and more fish to the tank without getting algae blooms. It does not take much ammonium to cause the bloom. If you add NO3 from KNO3 you will not get any algae bloom, if you add even 1/20th of the ammonium you will get a very intense algae bloom. This test can be repeated many times and ran again and again with the same result. Adding NO3 will not induce the bloom."
You already know this, but you added more fish and decreased plant mass.

My Scapes

You already know this, but you added more fish and decreased plant mass.

Very interesting. LF, have you in fact checked for ammonia in your tank?

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Back in the saddle!

You know what? I haven't tested for Ammonia in ages.

I assumed that the fish I physically added are nothing compared to the fish that are in there already. And these have been upping the biofilter gradually as they started of tiny (and small in numbers) and gradually increased in size (and numbers).

I will check tonight

Thanks,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Yes, good idea Nowher you should definitely check, but just becuase your "test kit" doesn't detect anything doesn't mean there isn't enough there to feed algae. I think that is in the EI article as well, that the level might be so small.

BTW - LF, contribute to the new thread
http://www.fishprofiles.com/forums/thread.aspx?id=27413&rp=2

If you have anything

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tetratech,

You really created the thread, that's cool .

I will see if I have a good picture that would make an impression and post it. Can't wait until Chaos adds his picture .

I will measure tonight, as promised, but I also guess that I will not get any reading for Ammonia (or hope that I don't). I can imagine that I have upset the biofilter big time during my overhaul and what I have now is still the afterburner of that event.

Thanks,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

If a deficiency of phosphate causes algae, then how come I am not seeing lots of algae? My last test showed .5 ppm P. That's a far cry from 5 ppm! I have since added the NPK that I have, the nitrate at last test was 10 ppm, so I should now have 13.5 ppm, according to the dosing info. It may be a bit less, it may be a bit more, but I may still be short on P, would adding more food help? I'm sure the fish would enjoy it!

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Wouldn't that be the opening? Tom never speaks of more than 3ppm of P, and he mentions that there is an uptake limit. The gap between that limit and the currently available 5ppm is the gap, the opening.

That wouldn't qualify as a gap. The nutrients are present all the time whether it be 1ppm or 5ppm. So there's no opening there.
The opening is when something is limiting plant growth. Think of it kind of like a predator constantly circling a herd waiting for a sick, weak or old prey to seperate from the herd, then he strikes. Doesn't make any difference whether there's 10 antelope or 100, he needs to wait for the sick weak one.
Even a small amount (a smidgen maybe ? ) of NH4 is an opening.

Note too when Tom talks about excesses it's never regarding algae issues, never. It's plant/fish toxicity, it's about causing changes in water parameters etc , but never algae.

Even if your tap is 2ppm of P you'll still need some. The uptake per week should be about 3ppm , so you'll s

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

luvmykrib - If your P should be really low then you will for sure get algae, now that you have more light and DIY CO2 (if I remember that right), just give it some time

Bensaf - Makes sense. Well, let me take your uptake number of 3ppm per week. I will measure what P is tomorrow and see how much has been tanken up. My uptake for sure did take a big hit with the replant a few weeks back. I guess this was the opening then. Thanks

In general, I did measure and lucky didn't come up with any detectable Ammonia. Yeah, I know, there still may be some small amounts (like a nip ), but at least I am not off the scale.

Thanks again all for hanging in there with my nagging P questions,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

0.5 ppm PO4, is it really low? I was reading the Tom Barr EI article and that's right in the range, is there somewhere else where he says more is better? If so, what should I be aiming for? I have only green spot algae, a tiny bit of staghorn in my 25g, more staghorn and green spot in the 10g though.

Side question, what causes black beard algae and what makes it go away? I'm asking for my brother's 55g which has the stuff in it. Low-light, some plants, 2-3 years old, fairly well maintained, he's doing weekly water changes now.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

luvmykrib,

0.5ppm is really low when you want to maintain a 10 to 1 balance of N to P and strive for 20ppm of N. That's at least the values I am playing with at this high tech / high light tank. Your algae (and your brothers) is most likely from a nutrient imbalance. Did you ever see This Page? It shows you some info about what algae is caused by what. BBA has an entry that says it is based on high P, but that has to be put in relation to N, as your P might be just right but N might be too low (and K and micros, of course).

Hope this helps

Anyway - I had the day off and what else is there to do when it is cold outside than tank maintenance? As such I did my weekly water change on all 3 tanks and will create my weeky update today rather than tomorrow or on Sunday.

Weekly Tank Update - Week 23

The last week has seen very little to no action. I just let the plants grow, added my ferts (no P) and food, and that was it. Pretty much all week was spent on discussing how much of P is right . The plants have been doing fine and it seems the spread of thread algae is beginning to slow down or even stop (or I just got used to it). I needed to trim the Star Grass and was immediately reminded of tetratech's first attemp which concluded with bad growth for a while. As such I trimmed it only a little, just enough to allow the water to flow over it.

So, with many more words, here are 3 totals over the last 4 weeks for comparison purposes. This is the tank 4 weeks ago when the current layout was just created:

Attached Image:

Week 19, new Layout

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

In week 21, 2 weeks later, some plants startedt show nice signs of growth. Others, like the Macandra, started to lose leaves and others, like the Helferi showed a major increase in thread algae:

Attached Image:

Week 21

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Today, another 2 weeks later, the Star Grass is still growing strong and the Pearl Grass is picking up the pace as well. Algae is still a subject though. I also did not have another major loss of leaves on the Crypt Retrospiralis anymore, only a few melted this week:

Attached Image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is a close-up of the Alternanthera showing us how beatiful pink-purple the underside of its leaves can be.

Also, have a look at the vertical leaf on the left side and how it is covered in thread algae. That is a leaf from the Red Rubin Sword

Attached Image:

Alternanthera

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

This close-up is for all the old and new friends of Amano Pearl Grass (right upikabu ). It is the group that grows right in front of the big branch in the middle of the tank. Some branches are growing straight up while others prefer to crawl along the substrate.

I guess if I would cut off the tall branches I could achieve a nice carpet effect with the crawlers, like the Dr. does.

Attached Image:

Pearl Grass

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And last but not least:

Who says I am fat?

Seriously, the question here is if it is normal that some Otos are so much bigger than others, or if this indicates that the top right one is a female.

I thought it is a nice shot:

Attached Image:

Oto and Oto and OOOOto

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Ingo - interesting to see the pearl grass crawling across the substrate. Do they actually send the horizontal runners themselves, or did you something special (e.g. tetra dance ) to encourage it?

Nice fat otto. I assume they have plenty to eat in your tank - you only have 6 right? Your tank can probably feed triple that amount without a hitch. The 3 otos in my 23g are even fatter than yours, plenty of protists to eat I guess.

Cheers!

-P

Seriously, the question here is if it is normal that some Otos are so much bigger than others, or if this indicates that the top right one is a female.

Interesting. I have one that's the same way fatter then all the others. So much so I thought it was bloat, but it's been that fat for over a year now and still going, so it must be just obesity or a sexual difference. All the others are much slimmer.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

No, I didn't do anything to tame the Pearl Grass, it decided to grow this way all on its own. As to why - I have no idea.

The Otos are a miracle. Why would some under the same conditions (age, food source, tank) become so much fatter than others. I can't imagine it would have anything to do with alpha males as food is available all over the tank.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Female.

Producing eggs then?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Perhaps, but in general, they are already likely quite wide. As with all loricariidae, they reabsorb any eggs not laid.

very interesting!

So LF where are the weekly pictures??

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

I have been thinking about the P issue. Here's my thought, excess P and low light, no CO2 may cause BBA, it has in my 10g. In Ingo's tank, excess P and high light and CO2 cause...flowers! In terrestrial plants, the nutrient that encourages blooming is phosphate. Nitrogen makes things green, phosphate makes things bloom and potassium makes roots grow. How different can aquatic plants be from that?
Anyway, now that it is out of my head and here in print I can get some other deep thinking done. Like why no-one has visited me in my thread lately, it's so lonely there.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Here's my thought, excess P and low light, no CO2 may cause BBA,

Low Co2 and unstable (either high or low) Co2 will cause BBA. In a non Co2 injected tank , water changes will provide the unstable Co2 levels.

Never known P to have any role in the appearance of BBA.

KH, lots of mulm will have a bigger role. BBA is very good at grabbing the small amount of carbon it needs from carbonate and organic matter.

Algae seems to be lousy at using inorganic sources of nutrients such as that in the KNO3 and KH2PO4 we use.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Taken from a page on Chuck Gadd's site, courtesy of the link Ingo posted.

Red algae: Also called Black Beard Algae (bba), or Black Brush Algae. Short hairs (1/4" long), closely packed together. Appears dark green, black, or dark red. Grows on plant leaves, and sometimes on decorations/substrate. Often grows all around the edges of plant leaves.
BBA thrives in situations of high phosphates. Phosphates come from fish waste, excess food, and occasionally will be present in the water supply. The best way to eliminate BBA is to let the plants out-compete the algae for the nutrients.

In heavily planted tanks, BBA will often show up when the plants have used up all the nitrates. This causes plant growth to slow or stop, which leaves the excess phosphates available to the algae. By supplying extra Nitrate to a planted tank, we allow plant growth to continue until all phosphate is consumed. Then plant AND algae growth will slow/stop. As long as a usable (5-10ppm) level of Nitrate is maintained, the the plants will continue to use up the available phosphate, effectively controls BBA and other phosphorus-dependant algaes. See the article "Adding Nitrate to a Planted Tank" for detailed instructions on how to increase your Nitrate levels.

Thus excess of P will cause BBA, when there is not enough nitrate. I added both nitrate and phosphate together and now have BBA in my 10g tank. This tank has no CO2, has 1.5 wpg, and is pretty fully stocked. There was no BBA before the addition of the NPK. My 25 on the other hand has .5ppm of P, better light, 2.5 wpg, CO2 at a steady level and no BBA.
But really, my idea was more that Ingo seems to get flowers more often than anyone else and it could be the P that is making it happen. He must have a good balance of nutrients including P to make the plants bloom the way they do. Have to admit I'm jealous and am starting to beg my anubiuas to put out even a little flower!

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

speaking of flowering plants. I have had two crypts flower at work. All I give them is some excel every other day.


55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

I knew someone else had them flower, couldn't remember who. What's the PO4 level in your tanks that have had flowers? Any idea? It's just a theory based on what I have learned from gardening, I thought I would put it out there and see if anyone could absolutely rule it out. Finding the right balance and maintaining it would be a trick, although I don't worry overmuch about my land plants, they flower for the most part, but lawn grass can be brought into bloom by adding fertilizer with more P in it, fall fertilizer generally has more k and spring fertilizer has the most N.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

I have no idea how much P the tanks at work have in them. I only way they are getting it is from fish food because I don't thing the kool steril system lets that through but i could be wrong.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Fish food, fish poop, are just 2 ways of P getting in, water changes if it's in the water supply is another way. Generally store tanks are overstocked and over filtered to compensate, but they must still get some P build-up, I don't think UV gets rid of it, but I could be wrong on that. My water supply from the city goes through UV and it still gets to me with a hardness of 300, and who knows what else.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

UV generally removes only organic contaminants such as bacterium. Hardness salts should remain unaffected.

Does it also remove phosphates?


"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Not that I'm aware of.

Thus excess of P will cause BBA, when there is not enough nitrate.

Next time you read the article, check when it was written

It's old stuff. A lot has changed, our knowledge has increased since then, mainly due to the testing of some the more experienced guys.

These kind of aruments were the kind of thing that started the "excess nutrients myths". Lot of people concluded P caused algae therefore P is bad.

In a case as described above the stalling of plant growth due to the lack of nitrates will cause the algae - nothing to with P. The algae would have come whether the P was 5 or 0.5ppm.

To stop BBA in a non Co2 tank don't do water changes or use Excel.

Or if you don't believe that try adding N, NOT elimating P,and see if that helps !Bet it won't. In which case that theory is down the drain. You can test these thu=ings yourself if you're willing to play with a tank.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Hi,
My only comment is to mention that a UV system will not
remove anything. It will kill anything alive that passes
through it. Parasites, live algae spores, etc. It is a
sterilizer, not a filter.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Little_Fish?

Where are you?

Hope you're well!

You're falling down on your 10 posts/day!

Please come back!

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Hi,
Didn't he say something about hurting his back shoveling
snow?
I too hope he is doing ok.
Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Yeah he did a while back. No pun intended.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Nah, he probably pulled his back messing around with the driftwood and rocks in his tank.

Geezer.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Thanks Matty

Well, I am back now.

I couldn't stand the look of my algea anymore and treated myself (and the family) to another view.

I have to read all new entries in this and the other threads before I can make any fish related entries, I only came back early this morning and haven't even seen my tanks yet.

In the meantime, enjoy the view

Attached Image:

The Really Big Tank

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Welcome back, Ingo! We've missed you.
Glad you enjoyed yourself while we're messing with our tanks.
Did you see any algae in that big tank?

-P

Thanks upikabu,

I am sure there is algae in the really big tank, but it fits right in

On the other hand, I am already in PANIC MODE again. I checked on the tank a few minutes ago and found loads of thread algae on many leaves and all over the wood and rocks. All fish seemed to be doing fine and it took my a while to see what was going on:

My CO2 bottle is empty

And that on a Sunday . I have no idea when the bottle ran out. I for sure did not see a low meter reading before I left. Grrrrrrrrr

I will do a large water change later and supplement with Excel until I get a new bottle.

So much about a happy return

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Ingo,

First things first, - Welcome back. I think I could speak for everyone that you were missed.

My CO2 bottle is empty

Your not going to believe this, but my bottle ran out yesterday and I never noticed the high pressure gauge was down. I'm running on fumes and still have a small stream coming out of my diffusor.

So since we started our tanks I believe at the same time I guess I could conclude that I've been running more co2 than you based on the 50+ gallon difference in our tanks.



My Scapes

tetratech,

thanks for the warm welcome , I had FP withdrawal symptoms for the first few days of vacation, but then I got used to the fact that snorkeling and staring at fish from the dark side is fun as well.

Yeah, you sure must have been using more CO2 than I did. I am kind of glad to hear that your bottle is going on empty as well. I was thinking that my regulator might be broken, but if yours is down too then the likelyhood that I just ran on empty "naturally" is pretty high.

Here is a full tank shot. The Star Grass and the some other plants don't seem to mind the thread algae and the lower CO2 values, the Macandra is near death.

Attached Image:

Full Tank, no maintenance yet

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

Tank looks pretty darn nice from that distance. It's hard to believe there are issues. I know it's fun to grow different species, exotics, etc, but it's the tank that's important, so don't drive yourself crazy trying to keep one species. As I've said before you can't be all things in all fish and plants.

BTW - I forget is there any preparation when disconnecting the co2 tank for refill?


My Scapes

Hi,
Welcome back...

SOME PEOPLE have ALL THE FUN!

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

tetratech,

You are right (as usual, or at least as very often ), I shouldn't drive myself crazy. The problem is that there are threads now all over the place and I only can hope that they will dissapear by themselves once the new CO2 bottle is hooked up and all can balance out again. BTW, I cannot get a bottle until tomorrow evening, the earliest.

About preparations: I don't think so, just close the old bottle and unscrew it, hook up the new one as if it would be the first time setting it up. Meaning, blow out the bottle a little first, then screw the regulator on (with the white tape), make sure all valves are in the right position, and open the main valve. That should be it.

I will go and do the water change now, maybe I try to remove some old leaves. I for sure have to trim the Star Grass and maybe also some Pearl Grass, although I might keep that one long just to have enough settled plant mass in there for the time being.

Ingo

EDIT: Frank - Thanks

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

Any bubbles coming out of diffusor at all. I still have a small stream even though my pressure is gone, I guess that's normal with gas. If you have nothing at all it might have run out before mine or it's not strong enough to make it thru the reactor. Do you have any bubbles in the bubble counter?

My Scapes

tetratech,

I got nothing, zip, nada

I guess that means that it started to run out as soon as I left a week ago .

I am in the middle of the water change now. I did a major trim of the Star Grass, actually a replant of tops and disposal of the bottoms.

Back to the Python

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks for the update. I haven't even started my WC yet.
At least you have excel. I don't have any although I just placed an order from bigals for a 2 liter bottle that should be here by Tuesday. I also ordered some Flourish Iron to see if it brings out the reds even more.

So as far as the co2 canister I guess you close it and take off the regulator.



My Scapes

Ingo - you left CO2 on while on vacation? You must be braver than I thought, considering the problems Bensaf mentioned before when he left his CO2 on while away. Did you reduce the lighting or duration? How about ferts?

-P

You must be braver than I thought

Yeah, I am a brave man .

No, I actually have a neighbor who's son watched over my tanks while I was gone. I premixed macros, readied a bottle with micros, pre-dosed food, and gave him exact instructions (written down) on what to do with what tank when. All was thought out, except that I may run out of CO2 . There was nothing the neighbor could have done as he only has experience with low tech tanks and I was not easily reachable anyways. Tough luck I say.

Anyway - Weekly Tank Update - Week 24

As has been mentioned in this and a few previous posts, I have been away for a week and ran out of CO2. This was all the invitation the algae needed to really settle in nicely, I hope it will go away after all parameters are back in sink again. If I would have to remove all infected leaves then the tank would be pretty empty now. All fish have survived my absence, at least the ones I can count (Otos, Rainbows, and Gouramies).

During the maintenance I replanted the Star Grass, it got way too big (see picture a few posts up) and I replanted the tops only. Otherwise I didn't do any trimming, even if the Pearl Grass is getting too big as well. I don't want to have too many plants not being settled at the same time.

K, here is the full tank after it was replanted in the current format, on week 19:

Attached Image:

Initial Current Setup Week 19

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And here is the tank after today's water change and maintenance. I supplemented with Excel to have at least some carbon in the tank until I can get a new bottle (hopefully tomorrow evening, if time permits).

Note the Macandra to the right of the wood group. It is really pale (unlike the Alternanthera) and any new growth that started in the last two weeks (sideshoots on main stems) is withering away as well.

Attached Image:

Tank Today - Week 24

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thread Anyone?

Here is a close-up of some Cyperus Helferi leaves covered in thread algae. This is pretty much like the whole group looks like and various of the other plants as well.

Darn

Attached Image:

Cyperus Helferi Thread Algae

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Or how about a nice rock covered in threads?

Also, note the beautiful BBA on the Sag at the left side. BBA is seen in various parts of the tank, but mostly on leaves that are on their way out, like on Sags and Crypt Retrospiralis. These two plant types have not taken the replanting 5 weeks ago too well. Some seem to recover, others just hang in, while the rest is withering away.

Attached Image:

Algae Rock and Narrow Leaf Sag with BBA

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF, sorry to see all the problems. Where do you go from here? I know you had algae problems before you went away, but do you think the lack of co2 made it worse in that period of time?

My Scapes

Where do you go from here?

No idea

Well, I first will try to see if cranking up the CO2 (once I have it) will help. If not then I guess I will have to order quite a few new plants. And I guess that would mean that I have to start over yet again, and I am really not into that at all.

I think that the existing algae really profited from the CO2 running out, with as you say "all that light" and the nutrients being available. Under these conditions I can imagine that it had a feast and that a few days were enough to create the current situation. Let's see what the Grand Master has to say about this .

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The interesting thing is that we both dispensed about the same amount of co2 over the same period of time and your tank is considerably bigger than mine. Now the only algae I really have is some BBA, which supposely is known to happen in low co2 situations. If that is true, then I must turn mine up even higher and you my friend must get a second cansister.

The fish never gasped

My Scapes

BBA, which supposely is known to happen in low co2 situations

I'm starting to question the validity of this hypothesis in CO2-injected tank. In my DIY CO2 injected tank, the only spot where I've seen BBA growing is on an area of the driftwood that's directly in the path of the CO2 bubbles being spit out of the diffuser. Therefore this spot should have the highest CO2 level in the entire tank. I'm starting to think that the reason for this BBA growing there is not necessarily the lack of CO2, but more the unevenness/fluctuation of the CO2 level in the area (as you know, in DIY CO2 the output of CO2 is not constant). If that's true, then in a pressurized CO2 injected tank I would expect BBA only in spots where the level of CO2 varies greatly (e.g. where water flow is restricted).

Too bad I can't test this as I don't have a CO2 tank.

-P

upikabu,
I could tell you in my tank 99.9% of the bba is on nongrowing surfaces, but it doesn't seem to matter where these are located in terms of flow and co2 dispersion. Some of the surfaces are right in the flow of the co2 others are at the far end of the tank.

I have followed several threads about bba where aquarists complained that the bba was worse where they had something (dw, rock) directly in the flow of the co2.


My Scapes

Tetra - that's interesting. Perhaps the junk/dirt that gets collected on these non-growing surfaces plus CO2 make perfect breeding ground for these protists. Well at least they're easier to remove when on driftwood/rock. Gave my fingernail a workout yesterday removing those b*****ds - it was disgusting.

-P

Well my main worry was that with algae already there that if the Co2 was off for a week it would flourish. I didn't know you're arrangement for while you were away and was assuming you'd switch the gas off.

As to the tank emptying - maybe a bit of oversight on your part ? When full the high pressure gauge will read about 900-1000psi. When the liquid Co2 in the tank is depleted this will start to drop and you are just left with gas in the tank. BUT you should get a week to two weeks between this and the tank totally emptying. I would have to assume that the pressure was already dropping before you went away but you hadn't noticed. I doubt there was a ytank dump when the pressure dropped as all the fish would be dead.

Anyhows, what to do now. You get the gas up and running and things back in line, while that should stop further algae growth it won't do much for the algae that's already there.

It will have to be removed. If it's too much to trim all it off. Then possibly a bleach dip on those plants you want to save. Not sure if Excel works on hair/thread algaes ? Not sure if a 3-day blackout would do it either. Maybe somebody will have some experience.

As for the Macrandra, well lets have a little pop quiz to see who has being paying attention in class

You've got a Reineckii that was wimpy and weak for a long time and is now big and bold. Macrandra has gone from a deep red to a very pale color.
What does that tell us ?

Use of test kits is not allowed

Simple observation only.

As for the BBA. Upi is close. It's not low Co2 per se. In a non injected tank not doing water changes is a way to control BBA by keeping the Co2 constantly low. Unstable Co2 is the main cause. Co2 rates going up and down (below the 30ppm level) will do it. Mulm is also a big factor in BBA as they are good at snatching carbonate from rotting matter. So the mulm and dirt trpped under and around wood and rocks may be a factor.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Red plant turning pale, Either lack of iron or too much Nitrate!

Did I get it right??

LF! Your alive and you went and had fun in the big tank! Nice picture BTW. How's the back? That thread algea is everywhere isn't it? I think I would freak if that happend to my tank. I think I had that in my tank for a little bit early on. I gave it about... well lets say probably way way too much excel and it turned red and went away. (is it posible to over dose excel?)

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

BBA. the demonic hellgae.

________________________________________________
I like Led Zeppelin.

Red plant turning pale, Either lack of iron or too much Nitrate!

Did I get it right??

You're close. But you are only looking at half the equation. The paleness of the Macrandra. How does that tie in with the improvement of the Reineckii ? Narrow it down.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Ok I just did a little cheating and googled it.

I am going to add in lack of Micros and maybe not enough light (being shaded?)

http://www.tropica.dk/productcard_1.asp?id=032

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Nah, you're getting further away now.

I'll wait for a few of the others to chime in before I give (what I feel to be) the answer.

There's an important lesson to be learned here. I'm always babbling about watching the plants, not the test kits.

That pic with the Reincekii and Macrandra tells me a lot about what's been going on the tank. It also, I'm pretty sure, giving a huge clue as to why the algae re-appeared.

But I'd prefer you guys to figure it out for yourself.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Oh Mr. B, you're such a tease!

My guess (never having kept either plant) would be too high nitrate (too many espei ) coupled with low PO4 (hence the paleness). I heard high nitrate could stunt macaranda. Reineckii must like the high nitrate and can tolerate lower levels of PO4. But low PO4 = thread algae or high NO3 = thread algae? My guess would be the latter or combination of both.

-P

Ok no more teasing then !

I don't like the phrase "too much nitrate" or "too high nitrate", btw. It's relative.

The changes in the plants tell me that previously the N was too lean and the phosphate high (just high NOT too high). This may have been well and good for the Rotala but not so good for the others, as signified by the poorly Reineckii. Increasing nitrate suited the Reineckii and caused the Macrandra to lose color. It may be a little too rich for the Rotala if growth is now stunted or that could just be the effect of the lack of Co2.

Does this mean the N is now "too high" , well not IMO. The algae is testament to that. Remember the algae started before the Co2 ran out, that's just complicated matters. MAcrandra is picky. It's a great indicator for an aquarium but can be a PITA to keep happy. There's a choice to be made, keep conditions suitable for the Rotala and risk problems with everything else or run rich and risk the Rotala being unhappy? I know what I'd choose.

Pages back I said that staghorn was an indicator of low macros. The changes in these plants tell me that N was running too low for a long time. To me that indicates why the staghorn re-appeared.

So in summary N was too low and P was not a factor.

If the reineckii was stunting for lack of N then I'd be sure while the other plants weren't showing syptoms as clear cut they probably weren't growing 100% - they were being limited. Now that's a gap that will let algae in.

Remember it's not fast growth it's non-limiting growth.

That's what one pic and the difference in 2 plants tell me about what's going on.

Watch the plants, folks, trust them. Sod the test kits. Listen to what the plants are tellin' ye, put your pre-conceptions and assumptions aside. They'll tell the whole story.

And to quote one of my boys -don't micro manage your macros !!!!

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

And to quote one of my boys -don't micro manage your macros !!!!

Oh, go on, your making be blush.

One thing I don't see mentioned alot (unless I've missed it) is people increasing their ferts as the plant mass in their tanks mature. Just because you were dosing 1/2 tsp no3 when 2 months ago does't mean it's enough now with the density of plant mass increasing.

Believe me all is not bliss in my tank. I do have bba and I noticed my Rotala Wallichii is looking kinda pale and thin.

My Scapes

Welcome back LF! Could you post your really big tank pic in my I'm cold thread in the recovery room? We've had a ton of snow over the past few days, it's nice to see somewhere warmer for a change. It must have been nice to get away, but not nice to come back to that! My filter went off when I went away last year and that wasn't a good thing to come home to, then at Christmas I had everything ready in case it happened again and one of the barbs died and was floating when I got home, I have to show her where the nets are so she can take out dead fish! Which brings us to now, the tank is still looking great from a distance, all the fish were looking active as well, they seemed to weather your absence alright. I'm sure once you get the ferts and CO2 levels back to where they should be then everything will settle down again. I'm trying to figure out how to get rid of the stuff growing in my tanks, the only conclusion is more plants, more ferts and better light (for the 10) and more plants and more ferts for the 25. I've got BBA, staghorn, thread, BGA you name it it has reared it's ugly head in both tanks. From what bensaf has said I think my N and P are too low, my CO2 is probably too low, but out of my control, the only thing I have in good amounts in the tanks are micros, and light on the 25 is good, could be why the algae in that tank is there, the plants aren't using the light available. So UI'm asking here cause he won't come to my thread and share his sage advice, probably tired of my denseness.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Man,

Coming back from vacation is no fun. All the work that piled up at my desk is still there .

As such I have only a few moments here and there to look into FP and maybe write an entry or two.

Bensaf - That's what I was going to answer for your pop quiz . Seriously, I figured it cannot be a lack of Iron as the Alternanthera would not be so read either. But, I have to say that the whole N / P think is still a little murky to me, although I understand what you are saying.

The Rotala started to do bad as soon as the last major replant happened. It never settled in anymore. It had been through many different tank params in the past as it was added to the tank at the get-go, so it successfully survived much greater imbalances (that for sure were there).

The Alternanthera has been in the tank just as long and never showed a sign of significant growth until the last major change. So it too has been through all kinds of mis-fertilization attempts.

tetratech - Although I hear your message about "increased mass requires increased ferts" as well, I have to say that my plant mass decreased during my last major change by about 50%

luvmykrib - I promise I will take a look at your log when I have a little more time . What did you do to the guys that you assume they don't want to create entries in there ?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

tetratech - Although I hear your message about "increased mass requires increased ferts" as well, I have to say that my plant mass decreased during my last major change by about 50%

Well I knew you were gonna say that, but weren't you experiencing thread and other algae problems prior to your extreme makeover. When your plant mass was at it's heaviest. Ingo not picking on you just creating discussions in general for myself to ponder as well.

I know you reduced alot of plant mass when you added the dw, but I'm not 100% sure that's the same as starting a tank with immature cuttings that have to be acclimated before they start taking up nutrients. Also does the biofilter simply take in nh3, if not then the bioflter grows bolder and hungrier as well as a sucker of nutrients. There are also cases I believe where the biofilter uses nitrate if the o2 content is low. Let's asume bensaf's right and the no3 ran low. It might have happened when the plant mass was at it's greatest (doesn't that start the process of algae coming in.) Things aren't instanteous or black and white.

Believe me the algae (algae genes, spores) are in the tank. They are knocking on the door constantly we just have to get damn good at never letting them in.

My Scapes

Ingo not picking on you

I know that tetratech, didn't mean to create the impression that I feel picked on, as I am not .

Well, one thing is for sure. I know now why you called me brave when I decided to pull through with the major overhaul, you must have foreseen the things that happened afterwards .

Whatever it is/was that caused this mess, let's hope we get it under control. I will get a new bottle of CO2 tonight and crank it up like a madman .

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I know that tetratech, didn't mean to create the impression that I feel picked on, as I am not

You didn't. I just wanted to make sure you weren't thinking that and I do understand the second language think so don't worry in the future as well.

Whatever it is/was that caused this mess, let's hope we get it under control. I will get a new bottle of CO2 tonight and crank it up like a madman

Almost makes you want to setup an experiment tank and try stuff. Could be in my future, but haven't been able to even get the cichlid thing going yet.

I might even bump my co2 up slightly. Think about it, your tank is about 40% bigger than mine we both used approx. the same amount of c02. Unfortunately it's not a clean comparsion because of all the other variables, but you have about 40% more water to diffuse the co2 into, you also have more light and more mass and you were dosing more ferts, so it stands to reason the plants need more co2 then mine. My fish were never gasping, but I do have BBA. So you might have been really under on the co2 unless your reactor was so much more efficient.

EDIT: My unprofessional advice, when you refill the cansister and start these increased co2 dosing, start off slowly and work your way up over a few days. "Small moves, Ellie, small moves"



My Scapes

Small moves, Ellie, small moves

CONTACT!

One of the most disappointing movie scenes ever, when she finally sees the alien. Why couldn't she fight it or something, or perhaps make the alien talk in backwards english like Yoda. Ah, I'm just rambling - I was a teenager when that came out, my list of priorities of things I wanted to see in movies was much different back then.

Aaaaanyway, as for LFs reactor - when i had that set-up I remember it being much less efficient than the glass diffusor. IME anyway. So it's possible LF, your CO2 may still be low.

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Back in the saddle!

CONTACT!

Your good.
Loved the movie, but I could see why that would disappoint a teenager. Think about most space movies when they did show the alien, they probably would have been better off not showing them (Independence Day, Abyss, ET )



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Loved the movie, but I could see why that would disappoint a teenager. Think about most space movies when they did show the alien, they probably would have been better off not showing them (Independence Day, Abyss, ET )

I loved it too, it's a Carl Sagan novel afterall, it's hard not to love his stuff if you look at it the right way.

You're right about being better off not showing the aliens in those movies. They did a good job for most of Abyss, then blew it at the end. And Independence day, don't get me started. I have a hard enough time believing Will Smith could punch out my sister, let alone a PO'd alien covered in armour. But alas, this is probably a topic for a different thread

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Back in the saddle!

But alas, this is probably a topic for a different thread

Not so fast nowher. I know you don't want to highjack LF's thread about fictional extraterrestrials, but I'm going to bridge our conversation about the algae/bacteria in our tanks and what we are up against. You don't think it's possible do you?

I don't know if you knew this but Carl Sagan once speculated that "microorganisims could be seeded in the clouds above Venus and would eventually make the planet habitable for higher forms of life by extracting water and carbon dioxide, breaking them down through photosynthesis and discharging oxygen into the atmosphere" This bacteria he spoke of
B-G-A

So algae/BGA is our friend

My Scapes

Only if we over populate the Earth and screw it up so bad we can't live here any more... stupid people here on Earth! Oh and it only takes about a year to get to Jupiter! So cut that way back to Venus.

Nice conection BTW! (did you make that up?)




55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

What

I have Aliens in my tank ?

I knew it, something this bad cannot be from this planet .

I love Science Fiction movies, but I don't have the brain to remember particular phrases. Best movie of this kind ever (because it was ground breaking): 2001 A Space Odyssey.

With regards to the tank: I hooked up the CO2 last night around 6PM and fired it up. I didn't see tetratech's suggestion about increasing it slowly over a few days until now. I actually think that the ph of the tank will fall slowly anyway as it will take some time to saturate the water. So, last night the CO2 was on for about 3 hours, that should not have made much of an impact except reminded the fish and plants of how it should be. Today I am letting it rumble and have full CO2 flow for the full day.

One observation I made, but I might be wrong with the "cause and reaction" relationship analysis: All my fish are swimming much lower in the tank when there was no CO2 added. Usually, most of my Espei occupy the upper realm of the tank to hang out, but in the last 2 days they all huddled just above most plants.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

One observation I made, but I might be wrong with the "cause and reaction" relationship analysis: All my fish are swimming much lower in the tank when there was no CO2 added. Usually, most of my Espei occupy the upper realm of the tank to hang out, but in the last 2 days they all huddled just above most plants.

I made the exact same observation in my tank a few days ago, actually one page back I posted a pic. The harleys usually stay near the top, but one day they just started hovering right above the tenellus carpet, just staying in one formation.

Perhaps there are little aliens in our Jersey water that are bothing our fish/ plants...

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Back in the saddle!

I have Aliens in my tank

That would be Chao's tank I believe
Speaking of Aliens, did Chaos get obducted by one?



My Scapes

Grrrr,

NowherMan6 - now you gave me another reason to worry, water from the tab.

I think to have observed that my fish came up some more once the CO2 was turned back on. I will make sure to sneak in tonight when I come home and check on them before they see me (as they come out as soon as they see me - for food).

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

With higher co2 content in the water they may stay closer to the surface to pop up for a gulp of fresh air once in a while ?

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Bensaf,

That was my thought as well. And sure enough, last night when I came home and sneaked downstairs I saw then half way up between the plants and the surface.

I checked on the CO2 and it was going at about 4bps. Unintentionally I followed tetratech's advice of slowly increasing the CO2 as 4bps are not a super sized load. I later crancked it up some more to "slow stream".

I have a question about "cleaning" plants in a Bleach Solution. I guess I should not remove all plant that I would like to save at once and rather stretch the cleaning process out to a few weeks. Some of my plants also don't like to be uprooted, like the Helferi and the crypts. What should I do with these? The bleach solution is 1 part bleach and 19 parts water, right?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well I can't think of a reason not to do them all at once. But I'd do it on water change day so you can clean up the mess from uprooting.

As for the Helferi it depends how bad the algae is. What would cause most long term harm to the plant - being covered in algae or being uprooted. As the guy on the ground you'll have to make that call.

I wouldn't do the crypts though - too melty. As new leaves grow in trim off the damaged ones.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Thanks Bensaf,

I will inform the groud troops that they are in charge of their actions


Before I forget,

Today is actually a special day when it comes to my involvement in this hobby.

It is exactly one year ago that I set up my very first tank, the 29G. It was quite an exciting first year that so far has produced 3 tanks, including this monster here . Plus many new friends here at FP, thanks at this point to all the people who gave their input in one way or another.

So when compared to a marriage, I am no longer a newly-wed and will from now on be able to be held responsible for my actions .

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

It is exactly one year ago that I set up my very first tank, the 29G

Does this mean the honeymoon is over and I could take off the gloves and really tell you what I think.

No, but really once you get past the 1st year and have had success like you have had I think your in it for life.

so have a cold dark one and enjoy

My Scapes

Congrates LF! You have done really well for yourself in a year.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

So that would explain why the romance is dead and why he doesn't listen anymore and takes me for granted

Well if you have to ask what the problem is there's no point me telling you.

BTW, do you know that doctors have discovered a new contraceptive ? Yeah, it's called wedding cake

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

So that would explain why the romance is dead and why he doesn't listen anymore and takes me for granted

Yep, I think he's rebelling alittle, trying to make his own tracks through the planted tank jungle.

Marriage, contraceptive


My Scapes

Me - rebelling - nah

Now move over and listen to the ideas of the new tank-keeper generation

Ups, I guess I have nothing to say

In a more tank related issue I have news though:

I arranged with my LFS to give them around 30 Espei tonight for store credit. I don't get much, but it is a start and marks the first time that any of my efforts return some of the investment.

I intend to bag them in 2 bags, 15 each, and then to put the bags in a cooler to bring them there (10min drive). I guess that should be fine, right? Do you have a better idea?

So, while arranging that deal, I perused the store to see what kind of a treat I could get myself for the 1 year anniversary. And what can I say - I found a very nice treat (in my opinion). I put a hold on a pair of Apistogramma viejita II that the store received just 2 days ago. A treat it is, as they cost $80 as this species supposedly is stillrather rare in the trade. I did not see the couple hang out together in the tank, both were going their own ways, but they didn't show any aggression towards each other when their ways crossed either. I assume that the term "pair" in this case means a male and a female rather than a formed pair.

What do you think?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thats a sweet fish! I can't imagin spending that much cash on a couple of fish but you are going to be getting some cash or SC so that will help matters. I think you are right about them being just a M+F not an actual pair. But who knows they may not like their environment right now but when you get them home to the super cool tank they might hook up.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Well, congrats on the esepi sale. Could be the start of something. Little_fish's little fish farm. Always nice to get something back and tell the wife

As for the Apistos:

Obviously very nice looking fish. Is that the actual fish your getting or is that a pic from somewhere else?

I would definitely let them stay in the store for a while if possible before moving, since you said they've only have them a few days.

When it comes to feeding time you might have to be more hands on. When I feed my bolivians I have to push away the schooling fish since they eat all the food before it reaches the lower levels where the rams are. I actually put some larger size food in a net and swish it to the bottom, same when I'm feeding worms, etc.




My Scapes

Hi Ingo

It is exactly one year ago that I set up my very first tank

Congratulations. Now, I had you figured as someone who has been at this for years. You've certainly learned a lot in a short time, 'cause you're certainly full of good advice.

I love your new fish. Gee that's pricey though, it would be AU$108.65. Is that a picture of your actual fish in the store, or is it one from a profile. Just wondering, 'cause my bolivian rams do not look anywhere near as colourful as the picture in the profile found here. Maybe one day, in the distance future, when I've recovered from the cost of kids, tanks (C02 soon I hope), maybe if I save all my dollars up, I can get 2 of them. Hate to order them in to find they don't look like your pic - so that's why I ask.

Again, congratulations on 1 year of fish keeping. Lucky for all the newbies here that you picked this hobby.

Cheers
TW

Oh thanks everybody, in particular Robyn - that is a very nice compliment.

No, sadly the fish pictured is not the real one I am getting, I found the image when googeling the web. Put basically it looks like it.

Leaving the fish in the store may be a good idea tetratech, but I don't think it is really possible - for a few reasons:

- I am rather sure the store is not too wild about holding fish for someone as they like to refill that spot with fish that they can sell
- The tankmates seemed to be too pushy for the little girl and there is not much hiding space (one cave like structure)
- last but not least, some salesguy who might not be in the know and potentially doesn't care to read the label on the tank may sell them

So, they will come home to Daddy tonight (if not sold/dead/ill).

Good point about the food as well tetratech, just later this morning it dawned on me that I didn't know how and what to feed these guys. After doing some research it seems that mostly some live food is suggested, although one book mentioned that they also would be just fine with "quality" flake food. Tell me more about the worms you feed - do you raise them, buy them, defrost them, or what?

Thanks in advance,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF congrats on the one year anniversary We all have you to blame for this Log madness (and Dr Bonke too)

Very nice apistos indeed. And that was a nice bit of luck with finding a rare kind. I would reccomend seeing if they'll breed, you have a possible goldmine on your hands I doubt an LFS would pass up an opportunity to sell fish that they could make a huge profit on

As for feeding, when I feed brine shrimp/ bloodworms they never make it to the bottom for my loaches. What I do is add some tank water to the brine shrimp/ worms, then suck that up in a turkey baster and let it drip out near the bottom. This way the bottom fish get first shot at it, and you can place it directly and not haphazzardly like I imagine would happen with a net. This is useful if the fish are shy at first and you need to spot feed them in their territory or in a cave section

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Back in the saddle!

Ingo,

That's one gorgeous Apisto, and congrats on the 1 year point. I'm almost ready to set up the planted tank that we've discussed briefly, I can only hope to have even a small amount of the success that you have had.

Jim

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Water, taken in moderation, cannot hurt anybody. -- Mark Twain

Jim,

I am sure that you will be at least as successful as I have been as you researched the topic at least as much as I did.

Actually, I hope you are better than me as I am still trying to figure out quite a few things here

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

NowherMan6,

Didn't see your entry, I guess I am getting old .

Question: do you feed live food or defrosted/freeze dried?

If the answer is live food then I would appreciate a short introduction. But I am afraid it includes the word refridgerator and I can already see someone kicking me out of the house.

Thanks,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

If the answer is live food then I would appreciate a short introduction. But I am afraid it includes the word refridgerator and I can already see someone kicking me out of the house.

Pack your bags.

I feed them frozen, and I keep the food discreetly hidden in the freezer. But I've been wanting to try out the Omega One freeze dried line. Supposed to be pretty good. Their flake food is also supposed to be excellent, though my harlies aren't crazy about it. High quality.

Cultivating live food shouldn't be too hard, especially brine shrimp. A one gallon tank should do, I'm sure you can find instructions online.

If it's a wild caught pair you may need to go the extra mile in getting them to feed, they may not be as voratious as the espei

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Back in the saddle!

Thanks NowherMan6,

I will ask tonight if it is wild caught. Last thing I want is that the fishies starve to death. I have various freeze dried foods, from Blood Worms (which I find are rather big) over Daphnia (rather small) to San Francisco Bay Brand Brine Shrimp (is floating) and Hikari Tubifex Worms (floating).

Let's hope they like at least one of them.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

When you go to the LFS find out what they have been feeding them. Always good info to know..

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Tell me more about the worms you feed - do you raise them, buy them, defrost them, or what?

I get the frozen cubes (usually san fran brand) I defrost them in a cup with tank water for 10 minutes then I dump out the cup over a net in the sink. I take some more tank water and dump it over the net again to get rid of the residue/bloodly liquid etc. so it doesn't go in the tank. Then I feed some of the school right away and then I go down to the bottom with the remaining worms and realize alittle where the rams hang. At this point the rams are really tame so they will go right into the net if I let them.

Sounds like the apistos are a done deal so good luck with them. I have a store way out east on the Island that stocks alot of them. I'll have to take a trip out there maybe this weekend and see what the deal is.

My Scapes

Thanks for the detailed information, tetratech

Sounds like it would be a bit messy to feed frozen food. I sure hope that they like freeze dried as well.

Thanks again,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

It's really not that bad. Doesn't freeze-dried float?
That would be harder for the apistos to get to since they stay on the bottom.

BTW - Yes, I do keep the worms in the frig. Actually one type of SF Brand is called "Fish Gum Drops". Nice way to say "Frozen Bugs"


EDIT: Makes a good case for getting a frig in the garage. Load it up with gum drops and black & tans.


My Scapes

Doesn't freeze-dried float?

Yes, it does

I was hoping that soaking it for a while will make it sink, but now I remember that uneaten food tends to stay on top as well. Grrrrr

We don't have electricity in the Garage, maybe I could run a fridge on gasoline .

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

well with the snow storm on its way you shouldn't have to worry about keeping them cold.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric