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Then it was time to close shop as I got tired and it was almost time for lights out in the tank. I fed the fish (they can also be seen eating on top in the full shot) and just enough time for one more picture from the right half of the tank, an attempt to show more detail. Then the lights went out in the tank and it was time to say good night.

Overall, as usual, I am not too excited with the results, but I am not disappointed either. The least I get out of this is a larger plant mass

Attached Image:

Right Half

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

Pretty good work my friend. I like it. Did you about poo your pants after finding plants that look as large as house plants to go in your tank?

The one thing I sugest to you is move the grassy plants on the left closer to the center.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

LF,
I think you did a fine job placing the anubias in and around the wooded area in the center and spreading it out.
Have you considered adding some more rock work to the left and right of the center to hide some stems and give it more depth and take out the flatness. Nothing overpowering just accents, but it will give it more visual interest and blend it with the center.


My Scapes

...after finding plants that look as large as house plants to go in your tank?

I have to confess that I have never seen (in person) Wendtii this tall and full. This is a whole other plant than the tiny pieces that I have, and ever had. I knew I was getting a larger plant (mother) and as such the size did not really surprise me, but what did was the number of these plants (1 mother red = 3 large red, 1 mother green = 5 large green). In the end I am actually rather happy with their placement, for the time being , grouping all green was a good idea, but having the even larger red ones spread out seems to work as well as they connect the individual broad leaved Anubias groupings.

Have you considered adding some more rock work to the left and right of the center to hide some stems and give it more depth and take out the flatness

I truely ran out of time . I can't see any stems on the right, and on the left I only see the roots of the Anubias as they are not buried but places losely on top of the gravel, held down by the gravel that attached itself to their roots when they were submersed. I would have loved to try rockwork on the left, but time was short and the old man got tired .

I am currently waiting for Bensaf's report on the Ground Crew and that is one reason why I don't want to plant all the way to the front anymore. Other reasons are that it is easier to clean and that if intself generated more depth.

Thanks for the comments to both of you, as always it is very much appreciated,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Now them are some Crypts. Love them.

I have to agree with tetra - I think you dd a fine job in planting them. Perfect. Is it just me or does the whole scape look more solid ? That's what I was trying to get at. You now have an anchor you can build around.

I was think the very same thing as tetra (fools seldom differ ? ). A few rocks between the Anubias and Crypts on the left, just accents maybe layer the Anubias just a tiny bit.

Great job.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Great job

Come on, you just want me to agree with you on your upcoming Ground Crew report .

Actually, the fact that I was not happy with the design but not horribly upset either indicated to me that it was pretty ok. I agree, the scape looks more solid and this is in most part due to the stretch of larger leaves all across the tank's width (I believe).

I hear both of you on the rocks. One also has to keep in mind that the Ludwigia family on the way left behind the large red Wendtii will grow significantly higher. So maybe the best way to include rocks in the Anubias section would be a U shaped layout where the left side guides down from the higher Ludwigia and the right side guides up to the higher Star Grass.

Thanks Bensaf,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

My money is on ground crew. I'll be making a post later on this very subject. Just need to prepare some pics.

A white paper on grounds crew dynamics. Oh this is gonna be good.

My Scapes

It is already out there tetratech (and all others),

Here is the link to it. It may explain why your substrate is so clean.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I finished off the tank last night and tried to rearrange the Anubias on the left with the help of some rock. After playing for about an hour, rocks in - Anubias on top - Anubias back off - rocks rearrange - and so forth, I decided on having only one rock on the way right of this group. That elevated the Anubias there and has the group sloping down to the left.

Then I added a little more Pearl Grass and my 5 Nana Petite that were still sitting in a bucket with water, and called it a night. Enough is enough

Here is the tank:

Attached Image:

Full Tank

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is now a picture just of the left side. I hope that the arrangement is even remotely what you had in mind when suggesting the addition of rocks.

BTW, not one Anubias in this group needed to be tied on as all have gravel on their roots that pulls them down. This made it a little easier.

Attached Image:

Left Tank Side

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And here is a close-up of my main log. As covered in algae as it is, it also has some beauty to it. If I could be sure that existing algae is not an invitation to disaster then I wouldn't mind this particular algae in only this area at all.

I think it makes it look very natural

Attached Image:

Algae Log

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And last, here is the middle section of the tank that (I hope) brings the sides together. I added a little more Pearl Grass in some spots and placed the Nana Petite in front of the log.

Could be a nice tank in itself.

Attached Image:

Center Area

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I think you are on the right track with the Anubius but I think you need to make it larger. Maybe have it be more of a rounded structure.

I like the looks of the algae on the front log too! Natural looking. In the discus tank at work there is aglae growing on top of a peice of DW that actually looks pretty good. It has been there ever since I have started (about 7 months ago). When I started using Excel it started to go away but not that I am running CO2 on this tank its coming back. It is the only place in the tank that has it so I am not freaking out. Yet...

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Man, I've been gone for awhile now. This is a very nice set-up (and the longest thread I've ever seen). One of these days things will slow down enough to where I can begin to get back into the hobby like this. Good work.

-Keith

http://www.ozarkgames.com

Keith,

Thanks for the input. I am flattered to have someone who hasn't been on FP for a while add his first entry into my log - and on top of it has something positive to say about my tank.

Thank you very much,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

be mindful of the future my young padawain, ()


kill the algea now or end up with a tank that looks like mine

OH TOLEEDY!

Hi,
I too had a piece of driftwood in my tank. It became
"encrusted" with hair algae and really looked beautiful
as the long hairs swayed in the currents. But, alas,
all was not well, and the "hairs" broke off and gathered
elsewhere on my plants, and soon the whole tank was
swaying in the currents. It took forever, and the removing
of the dirftwood for me to resolve the problem.
Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Looking really nice..love the drifwood

Robby

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I know human beings and fish can co-exist peacefully.

Tanks to all 3 of you for the input and information regarding algae on the driftwood.

I did my water change today (photos and details will follow tomorrow) and used that chance to scrape off some of the algae. Not all is gone though, I may need a few sessions to get rid of it. This also gives me the chance to see if it spreads again.

A slightly troublesome development happened today in the QT. After the water change in that tank I noticed that one of the platies was breathing really hard. On closer observation it seemed that the fish was not able to close its mouth anymore at all. Also, some slight swelling up of the fish was noticable, like the beginning of dropsy.

It happened to be one of my original females that were added 7 months ago, I am rather certain that she must have been at least 1 year old because she was fully grown when I got her and had babies right away. I had to let her go .

I will keep an eye on the situation, all others are doing just fine. My concern, besides that there is a chance of an illness, is that the young adult male will terrorize the remaining females. He was already a pushy little punk before, but now there are less females for him to herass. If he gets out of control (and there is no sign of further illness) then I will move him into the 29G, here he has to stand his man in a crowd of larger Sunset males, they are going to show him his rightful place .

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Weekly Tank Update - Week 26

The last week was rather boring, besides 2 events that are worthwile to be noted.

1) A new plant order came in on Wednesday and has been added to the tank, some re-arranging was required in the attempt to create some flow.

2) A side-discussion with Bensaf in another thread revealed that my addition of Seachem Equilibrium is rather insignificant. I forgot to read the instructions and basically added only enough to raise the GH by 0.17 dH . I measured my GH yesterday in the morning and I have to say that it was not easy to interpret the test kit. It seems I am having maybe 2 to 3 dGH, which in itself would be fine. After the water change I added double the usual amount of Equilibrium, I figure it cannot harm and I will see if things improve.

The replant from last weekend (major) is still having an impact on the tank. The fool that I am I forgot to suberse the Anubias for hours and I am still losing one or the other leaf. Even worse, my 10 minute bleach dip turned almost all Helferi leaves brownish. I assume I will have to remove them soon.

This week I am showing a series of pictures to demonstrate the change the tank underwent of the last 26 weeks. First, the tank when it was just set up:

Attached Image:

After Initial Setup - 26 Weeks ago

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is the tank 6 weeks later, in the meantime it underwent a Weed-Treatment to generate as much plant mass as possible in the shortest period possible to establish the tank quickly. Now the first attempts to scape have begun:

Attached Image:

Week 6

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

By week 17 the tank had grown into a jungle and it became almost impossible to maintain it at that stage. Plants were shading each other, the substrate couldn't be reached anywhere anymore (except for the areasin which the Glosso had been removed because it killed itself by being 5 layers deep).

In other words, a change was needed soon:

Attached Image:

Week 17

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And onl 2 weeks later the tank underwent its largerst overhaul to date, all but one plant had been removed and replanted, or simply thrown away. A major piece of driftwood was added in an attempt to improve on the scape, I think it was a good move although, once done, the tank still wasn't all that great.

Attached Image:

Week 19

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The tank started to show major algae (thread) issues after this replant and the fact that I lost the CO2 for about a week while being on vacation made the situation even worse. Something needed to be done and I, once again, removed almost all plants and restyled the arrangement. Only the plants that had not too much thread algae on them were added back in, others were trimmed or discarded.

This left me with the lowest plant mass in a long time.

Attached Image:

Week 25

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And, as described in the update post above, I decided to add more plants for 2 main rasons:

- Mass
- Flow (design)

So far I find the layout pretty nice. Yes, there is room for improvement, but not right now. And if you compare the Star Grass in the last 2 pictures you will see that growth is good, in particular when I add that I had to trim about 4 inches of the top.

Attached Image:

This Weekend - Week 26

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here are just a few detail shots nothing much.

The first one is of the arranged - and rearranged - Anubias group on the left half of the tank. As you can see, it slopes downward from the Star Grass to the Needle Leaf Ludwigia. I may play with this group in the future, but for now I will leave it alone.

Attached Image:

Anubias Group

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is a shot of my Nana Petite arrangement, not to creative, lined up in front of the main driftwood. I had a hard time trying to tie them to rocks and decided that for the time being they should be buried in the substrate. Don't worry, the rhizome is not buried.

I am very curious as to what these little buggers will turn into. Actually, I read somewhere that over time Nana Petites will start to develop larger leaves again as the dwarf gene is not persistent. Any info on that?

Attached Image:

Anubias Nana Petite

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

One of the residents in the tank that is thriving on my algae supply. While I don't see them eat the longer threads, they for sure nibble on the young growth right next to it. I haven't been able to account for them all in at least 2 weeks, but I am sure that most of them are doing well.

Uh, this reminds me, maybe it is time now for some Amano Shrimp, what do you think?

Attached Image:

Oto

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And last but not least, the newcomers

It will be a few weeks (maybe 3 more) before I will add them, but they arereally beautiful. I guess I didn't do enough research before I purchased them as I basically accepted the fact that will have a dull female in my tank and the male's color will balance this out. I find her coloration just as attractive as his, and she is a feisty little fish.

And that's it for now,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Apisto viejita II - Pair

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,
The board is quiet today,
Anyway what happened to this layout. I really liked the way you spread the anubias around. It appears to have changed with the new additions.

Still looks nice. I like the Nana Petite arrangement in front of the driftwood.

I have to ask this. What have you changed that you think will help with the algae situation this time around? More co2, anything else?

As far as shrimp go, make sure that the dwarf cichlids won't eat them. I thought I read somewhere that certain species might.

Attached Image:


My Scapes

tetratech,

Thanks for the input. To answer some of your questions:

- The Anubias are exactly were they were in the picture you showed, except that the group on the left is sloped and a few of the crypts in front of it (lucens and lutea) have been moved a little.
- To avoid algae I will keep my CO2 crancked up and the ferts as well.
- Thanks for the info on the shrimp. It was a thought that crossed my mind, but I thought that if they are ok with your Bolivians then they should be fine with the smaller Apistos as well. Guess that may not be true.

The only thing I did yesterday was to remove 3 male Platies from the QT. Nasty little buggers. I observed them chasing after the Apistos and attempting to nip their fins, even the male's . Off they went to the 29G. The rest of the day was pretty much commited to resting, as I got a cold

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Glad the anubias are still there, cause it looked nice.

Never saw the bolivans go after the shrimp, but you never know. It would be an expensive snack for those fish.

Do me a favor and put a lot of java moss in your tank so some apistos fry will survive and you could send some to live with Uncle Tetra

My Scapes

...you could send some to live with Uncle Tetra

Well, Uncle Tetra

Will do, but first they would have to breed for me, and then I would have to overcome the same hurdle than you with your Bolivians - how to manage to feed the fry. Time will tell.

Yeah, $5 per piece for a snack is rather expensive, I don't think I am willing to treat my Apstos that well. Ok, maybe for their birthday .

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I've added a total of 8 shrimp to my tank since I started it.

3 Amanos/Yamatos
3 Ghosts
2 Cherries

The only ones I see right now on a regular basis are the Yamatos. I haven't seen a ghost shrimp in about a month so who knows. 1 Cherrie I removed to another tank and the other hasn't been spotted since I put them in. So there fate could have been old age, no3 levels or the became a meal.

My Scapes

tetra, have you ever seen your schooling fish pick on the shrimp, like the pencils or the cardinals?

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Back in the saddle!

tetra, have you ever seen your schooling fish pick on the shrimp, like the pencils or the cardinals

I did see the cardinals go after a very small cherry shrimp, but they never made contact and might have thought it was a piece of food at first.



My Scapes

Excellent Good to hear...

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Back in the saddle!

K, means no shrimpsters for me then, I guess.

Sad news, unexpectetedly I had to put one of my female Rainbows down. This is the first loss in the tank ever since the Otos were added months ago (and some didn't make it, as expected).

I came down to the tank this afternoon (sick-have a cold or something) and saw her swimming on the surface. Whenever she hit the current of the spraybar she was swirled around in it, showing that she has no strength anymore. Also, what first appeared as nicer than usual coloration turned out to be scales sticking out - dropsy.

I have no idea what the reason is, there are two thoughts (actually 3 - I describe the third later)

- replanting during the last week was stressful on her
- I cleaned the filter and on restart a lot of gunk was washed from the hose into the water. Maybe it is bad for fish and she ate it.

Third thought: She looked different from the time I got her. While the other 2 have a straight line from the mouth to the dorsal fin, she had a bend in it. Maybe she was misformed and as such couldn't function properly. I never thought much of it, until now. In the picture (not new) below she is on top and another female below. Any info?

Attached Image:

The top one died

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

Sorry to hear about your DNR. I about lost one of mine last week. I had the lid off doing some work on the tank and one decided that it was a good idea to jump out at me. So I grab it and throw it back in only to have it jump out on the back side of the tank. Not good! Lucky it didn't land in the tank below. It would have become a snack. I had to move my book case to get to the thing but it seemed to be doing find a couple of days later.

As for what happened to yours I am not going to get into it because I am really bad at that stuff. So I will leave it at sorry.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

- replanting during the last week was stressful on her
- I cleaned the filter and on restart a lot of gunk was washed from the hose into the water. Maybe it is bad for fish and she ate it.

I doubt it was anything you did, like the two things above. If these things did kill the fish then it was on it's way out anyway. Not my area of expertise, but the fish does look deformed, which is not that uncommon with any animal that reproduces in large numbers. Most deformed/mutated individuals don't survive as long as normal specimans, unless it's to it's advantage, but we don't need to get into the whole Darwin thing.

My Scapes

tetra,

Thats the one of the few Darwinian things I don't mind so much

LF,

Ater looking at your picture again. The top fish kind of looks like a he/she. It has the more pointy nose of a male and the color of a female. Maybe that was its cause of stress.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Thanks tetratech and Wings for the input.

I am glad that I am not the only one who thinks that the shape of that fish was a little off, and Wings I had the same thought about the he/she thing, but I don't know if this is possible. I know that there are species with "males in hiding" that only show their true colors when they feel strong enough to compete with the other males (or alpha male), but I don't know it Rainbows are within that group. And even if so this should not have been a health issue then as it would be natural. I don't know.

Let's just hope that this is the last death for a while, nothing is more depressing in ones tank than fish death.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

OK GANG, I need some Apstio Advice

It all started yesterday when I was going to feed the fish in the QT. Usually, tapping the food container on the glass brings them all together to the front, even the Apistos have learned that by now. But, no sign of the female. I looked (just looked, not rearranged) all over the tank and started to feed when she appeared, I don't know from where. She is more beautiful than ever and has an orange included in her yellow coat now. Then, after an appetizer of flakes, I went back to get the freeze dried Tubifex worms, and again she was not to be found . She came then out from behind one of the pieces of driftwood and after eating some worms dissapeared to that area again. I lurked around the side of the tank and saw her hush into a little cave in the wood.

The same happened ever since yesterday, whenever I approach the tank she cannot be seen, but she comes out to feed and then goes back there. The male is his usual, no changes at all. I removed the backcover, but my head is too big to fit in the gap between tank and wall. I used a small mirrow and a flashlight. I held the mirror in the tank and used the flashlight to see what is going on back there - Too deep of a cave and too dark.

Do I have eggs back there for sure? She is not in hiding because of stress as she looks sooooo good right now. I cannot go out and buy liquid fry food just based on assumption as I wouldn't know how much and when to feed.

Any ideas what is going on and what to do?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

She might have eggs back there but cichlids can be wierd sometimes. My baby convicts either beg for food at the top of the tank or hide like they have never seen a big hairy faced balding stressed out soon to be married college kid before. The parents are the same way. Sometimes very personable others they act like they have never seen you before.

I wouldn't worry about feeding the fry right away if that is the case. They can normally fend for themselves really well for a while just on left over egg sack. If you do see some fry it might be worth getting some frozen baby brine shrimp to feed them though. My baby convits grew much faster than normal when I was feeding them that.

How is the male looking? No extra color or anything? Agression?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Thanks Wings,

How is the male looking? No extra color or anything? Agression?

Fine, No, No.

This are the quick answers to your questions . This is what throws me off, as I would have assumed him to be more aggressive with eggs around. On the other hand, I read that it is the female that protects the edds/fry and the male is in charge of territory (which by the way is supposed to be larger than the 20G QT).

I will have to keep an eye open for any tiny fish that may stick its head out of the wood cave at some point. If they stay in the back of the cave then there is no way for me to tell.

Anyone has any idea of how long the incubation time for Apisto Eggs is?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Anyone has any idea of how long the incubation time for Apisto Eggs is?

It's probably a few days, before they become wigglers. As someone mentioned they probably wouldn't need food for at least a few days after they hatch because they have the yolk sacs. Funny thing is my two rams have disappeared over the last few days, but there is so much density in the tank I'll probably never find the eggs and I can't go behind mine.

When my rams spawned the first time they laid the eggs on a piece of petrified wood and then they dug a borrow in the substrate and moved the egg/wigglers in there?





My Scapes

LF,

No experience with apistos, but that sounds like pretty standard dwarf cichlid breeding behavior. There's no other reason for her to not come out and beg for food. They may eat the first batch themselves, it may take them a while to "Get it" I wouldn't go crazy about this batch... but I guess this is why when people breed them intentionally they just tanks without a lot of clutter so you can actually see and feed the fry etc.

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Back in the saddle!

Thanks you two for the input

Yeah, I guess there is not much I can do than wait and see what will happen, but you know how it is.

I nearly broke my neck yesterday when trying to get a closer look into the cave .

Guess I will have to get the goggles out and take a head dive into the tank. I wonder what the fish would think about that .

Thanks again,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I would get with tetra before you take your dive! He has the head gear you need!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Someone call for the Fishgeek



Attached Image:


My Scapes

LF,

By the way, was the LFS you sold the espei to AF? I saw some very VERY healthy looking "tank raised" rasbora espei the other day...

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Back in the saddle!

Yup NowherMan6,

That may have been mine

Did ya buy any?

And tetratech - we (NowherMan6 and I) cannot afford such a sophisticated head-stander to do our dive chores .

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And tetratech - we (NowherMan6 and I) cannot afford such a sophisticated head-stander to do our dive chores

Yeah, I'm usually hired for only really big tanks:



Attached Image:


My Scapes

I about choked on my food!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Caption for this photo:

"While everyone else enjoyed a pleasant lunch, tetratech proceeded to stare off into the distance, snapping back into consciousness only to drink his saki through his special blue Fish Geek straw."

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Back in the saddle!

Feels like the good old days are back.

But you know, he was really there, he even visited the ADA site.

Attached Image:

Tetratech at ADA

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

What is the ADA? It looks sweet!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Wow, now that you mention it LF, he seems to be popping up all over the place. Why, this evening I was looking through an old history textbook and I came across a picture with a familiar looking guy in it...

Wait, wait... oh my... is that... yes, yes it is! Tetra that's you! I didn't know you were one of Teddy Roosevelt's rough riders!!



Attached Image:

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Back in the saddle!

The caption to that picture read:

"Teddy Roosevelt's Rough Riders were also the first Unit to train in modern warfare, although Corporal Tetratech's goggles and snorkel didn't proof effective agains chemical agents, even when wearing them 24/7"

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Man this is cracking me up, made my day.

Of course I couldn't resist

Caption ? -

"Darn, how does he get that Wallichii so pink?"



Attached Image:

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Yeah, I don't know if tetratech anticipated this when he started this section.

But he is looking pretty good for someone who seems to stick his head all the time in everybodies business, eh - tank.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

OK, last one, I promise...

"LF introduces his new fish, the Dwarf Neon Tetratech"



Attached Image:

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Back in the saddle!

Sadly it all came to end today for tetratech. After pursuing him for days, tetratech was arrested. The charges included breaking into Amano's house, stealing from ADA, impersonator a rough rider and wallichii abuse.
They are still looking for his accomplish LF, for his part in the dwarf neon tetratech fish scandal.





Attached Image:


My Scapes

Nice way to end it tetra! The funny part about that picture is the guy holding the vidio cammera. What kind of poilic training does that take? 1 dounut... 2 dounut aht aht ahh..

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Ah, that was fun

Let's just hope tetratech will be released again soon

On the actual tank frontier:

Nothing much happened, it may be that a little algae growth can be observed, but not too much so far.

The female Apstio is still doing her hiding thing, but I just cannot peek into that cave.

We will see,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

Do you have a close-up pic of the algae in question?

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Back in the saddle!

Not here, but it is basically more of the same than the one that eventually caused me to do the last major overhaul.

Small threads on plant leaves and the glass, none longer than maybe 1/2 an inch. And not too many yet.

It could be that I haven't really corrected the issue that I had - I upped the P dosage to 1/2tsp every other day as it must have been too low for a while.
It also could be that the attempt I made to scrub off existing algae from glass and wood caused it to settle somewhere else.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

They let me go as long as I never say anything bad about Petland Discounts again - yeah right

Anyway sorry to hear about the algae problems. Those protists are tough little hombres. Afterall they've been around for quite some time.

What's interesting is that I have my own little war with some BBA. It's actually growing on the inside of the glass diffusor right where the bubbles come out and my co2 is cranked. I also see some bba on the rar right back glass which is far away from dissusor, so I don't see the low co2 relationship in my tank anyway, it's just not that simple, not black and white.



My Scapes

Week 27 - Weekly Tank Update

This week the tank made me very frustrated. The algae is most certainly growing back, although I have upped the P now for 2 weeks straight to 1/2tsp 3 x a week and the Equilibrium to 1tsp per week. All other parameters stayed the same so I feel like I am at the end of my ideas. Makes me wonder if I should order a bunch of low light plants, shut off the second light row and the CO2, and live in peace from here on.

I ordered 4 diffusers, 2 3-coil and 2 8-coil, they should be here Tuesday and I will hook up one 8-coil under the spraybar, maybe that will help. Nevertheless, the problem that remains is the removal of existing algae which I cannot achieve by removing the hardware as I do not want to have another major overhaul at this time.

The plant order from last week is not doing too well, the crypts - as expected - show some melting, all stems of the Needle Leaf Ludgwigia rotted away and I had to remove all of them. My Star Grass on the other hand grows like mad and I had to remove the whole bunch and replant the tops.

Here is a picture from yesterday before the trimming:

Attached Image:

Week 27 - Before Trimming

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And here is a picture after the trimming and water change. Nothing else has change from the previous picture, except that I removed the dead stems of Needle Leaf Lugwigia:

Attached Image:

Week 27 - After Water Change and Trimming

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Algae anyone?

The small group of crypts (pictured is a Wendtii), Wendtii, Lucens, and Lutea all look like this. They are located to the left of the big piece of wood, with the water flowing from right to left in that part of the tank. It may have gotten so bad because I tried to scrubb of some algae last week and the water flow blew it onto these plants. Or, it got it because the plants were moved and are unstable now.

But this is not the only plant, I see an increased on all my Anubias plants and the remaining Retrospiralis.

Attached Image:

Darn Algae

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Fortunately,

There are still these guys here, although the female is not protecting her little cave anymore (false alarm or failure).

Here is the male parading the tank:

Attached Image:

Apisto viejita male

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And my beloved female. She sure has nice colors, I love the contrast of her basically yellow bodie and the black markings. The occasional red and blue sprinkle looks very nice as well.

Attached Image:

Apisto viejita female

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And because it is so nice, here a picture of the happy couple. When they "meet" in the tank there is always some "spine twisting" mutual attention thing going on. All fins are stretched out and the fish circle each other once or twice with bent backs. Then they swim off in different directions to keep on looking for food:

Attached Image:

Apisto viejita couple

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

First thing I could say is that I'm glad you got those fish to take your mind off the algae. I guess there cheaper than taking another vacation.

Anyway, as the song says "where do we go from here".
Question?
Is the algae more prolific than it was before you reduced all that mass and added the driftwood? If the answer is yes than at least there is some cause and effect. Looking at your tank now I don't see alot of fast growing fert sucking plants other than the stargrass? In my tank I get alittle bba on the blyxa because it really doesn't grow all that much in the light I have.

I don't think your issue is with fert dosing. Your not doing anything that much different than Bensaf and me.


My Scapes

I'm glad you got those fish to take your mind off the algae

And on top of this they are still in the QT, so I don't even have to look at the algae tank to see them

Thanks tetratech, I needed some encouragement. Yeah, the whole algae mess started after I added the driftwood, at least this form of algae. And you are absolutely right, I have only very few fast growing plants, there is the larger group of Star Grass and the groupings of Pearl Grass. I thought that the tank was at a stage where it doesn't require that many fast growers anymore, but either because of the major changes or because this phase would come much later (if ever) I am not there yet.

But what can I do? I am honestly sick of spending 8 hours to redo the tank every few weeks. I am getting seriously fed up with it. If EI works only if I have fast growers in there, what good is it for?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

How much light are you running? How long? Maybe you should play the game of low light all day and a high light for only a couple of hours.



55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

But what can I do? I am honestly sick of spending 8 hours to redo the tank every few weeks. I am getting seriously fed up with it.

Personally I think that's part of your problem right there ! Too much changing and uprooting. As tetra said you are doing pretty much the same as us except for one thing, we rarely make big changes to our tanks. Add or remove a plant here and there but no major overhauls.

If EI works only if I have fast growers in there, what good is it for?

No it'll work for slow growers too. A couple of fast ones are a good check valve. But besides that I don't see the connection between fast growers and having to do big overhauls.
The fast growers just need to be trimmed, nothing major there. If they need to be uprooted for the trim , just vac around that area to remove anything that may have been kicked up and replant. No biggie.

But on more then one occasion you have pulled up every plant in the tank. I never never do that to a tank unless I'm tearing it down. If I want to make that big a change I do it gradually, pretty much move one group at a time. Takes longer to get the look you want but less problems in the long run.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

i agree with bensaf, slow and steady wins the race. in my tank with the BBA i have nearly all off the plants and only the back and side walls to go. just keep getting rid of the badly affected leaves and you will eventually win

OH TOLEEDY!

But on more then one occasion you have pulled up every plant in the tank

Well, I always left one group (at least) in its position

No, but seriously: If I ever wanted to have driftwood in the tank than the first major overhaul was the only way to do it. I don't think you would believe that this could have been achieved by removing only one plant at a time. And the second major overhaul was needed to add more plant mass. And that is it, I haven't done more than these 2 overhauls (although I feel like I am doing them on a weekly basis).

Thanks for the advice on "making slow changes", I will try to keep that in mind for the future. There is one thing that makes following this advice rather costly though: Almost all plants for my tank are ordered over the web (not the best local resources) and if I add only one plant at a time then I will have to pay loads of shipping until I have a new assortment.

Maybe it's time to add some Wisteria from the 20G QT to my tank.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

Double dog dare you to join the wisteria club! The question is will you grow tall or lay low?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Too much changing and uprooting

LF, for what it's worth, I believe I'm in the same boat. My algae problems started after doing major overhauls, and they certainly seem to get worse after doing major overhauls... slowing down after several water changes etc. I'm right there with ya, lookin for the answer

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Back in the saddle!

You guys are going to make me quote one of my favorite movies again "small moves, ellie, small moves"

I think Bensaf is probably on to something with the "extreme makeover" planted tank edition. I'm also wondering if the substrate has anything to do with it.
Is the lava-rock based eco complete a better bio-filter than a gravel/laterite mix. Lava rock is used in filters as a bio media.

What I'm getting at is the ability of the tank to decompose waste making it unavailable to algae through plant suck up and bio-filteration.

My Scapes

Well it's more to do with stirring up mulm and NH4 from a mature substrate. Both are lovely algae treats

Plus the plants stall for a bit after a big move.

If you need to order lots of plants - stick them wherever there's space and then gradually move things/replace to the position you like.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Well it's more to do with stirring up mulm and NH4 from a mature substrate. Both are lovely algae treats

.

Yes, but does the amount of biofileration in the substrate neutralize this algae treat. The "honeymoon" phase of the hobby is long gone, why not pack the tank (And I mean pack, densily plant wisteria, hygro, etc and see if it makes a difference and slowly remove them "small moves" over time until you have the look you want.

By the way whatever happened to Chaos Maximus?

My Scapes

Tetra, that's actually what I've been doing, pretty much letting the wisteria take over for a while. I wasn't able to do WCs last week because of the gourami eggs (by the way, the plant mass that the eggs were laid in got moved around by the current the other day and the bubblenest was destroyed. sad sight, but at least it let me do a water change) but I plan on doing a couple this week to pick up the excess mulm stirred up in the make-overs. As I said, i think LF and I are suffering from the same thing, because I know my EI routine is basically the same as yours, with lower numbers for the smaller tank.

and BTW, I sent Chaos a PM about 2 weeks ago and never got anything back

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Back in the saddle!

I guess I will take out the pruning scissors then tonight and clip off some Wisteria from the 20G and add it to the big tank.

Also, my Alternanthera is getting too tall. I would assume that I simply can cut off the top and replant it (did that before) and leave the bottom part of the stem in to sprout again. What I don't know is if there is a rule (advice) as to the percentile to cut off, like 2/3 down the stem or something.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

guess I will take out the pruning scissors then tonight and clip off some Wisteria

Ya know things can get kinda boring if everyone has all this wisteria in their tanks.

If anyone wants to order L.I. Wisteria and/or Willow Branches I'm selling.

My Scapes

Ya know things can get kinda boring if everyone has all this wisteria in their tanks

Well, why do you think I don't have any in my tank right now. The last thing I want is a beautiful tank that simply would be a copy of yours, not because your tank is not very nice, but how boring would that be?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Just to chime in here: wisteria is a great stem plant becaus 1.) it fills up space and 2.) because although it grows fast, it doesn't grow so fast that it becomes weed-like, like hygro polysperma. if you have a better idea for a nutrient sucker then you let me know

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Back in the saddle!

Hey Ingo, I noticed no-one answered your question about how much to pinch off, 2/3rds is a bit too much, the general rule of thumb for pruning land plants is 1/3. Same with roots, take about 1/3 of the roots when you re-plant, no more or the plant goes into shock/can't get enough nutrients to survive.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Yes, but does the amount of biofileration in the substrate neutralize this algae treat

Well mulm is just decomposing organic matter. As it de-composes it produces NH4. The decomposition is a gradual process, so no matter how good the bio filtration there will always be some NH4 as the mulm will continue to produce as it rots and the bacteria will consume what it can. Kick all this up into the water column.......

But it's not just NH4 , it's other things too, decomposing organics will also be producing carbon etc, nut in the minute quantities that are useless for plants but handy for algae.

An oft overlooked aspect of EI is the need to keep tank and equipment clean. There's a reason for that. I know LF does keep his stuff clean but these overhauls are kicking up a lot of stuff.

I'd definately try a few months of relative stability (still ok to add plants ) and see how it works out.

As for the algae on the the crypts etc, I'm not sure what the cause is. I used to have that kind of stuff years back in small quantities. But this was before I had Co2 and decent light. Never seen it in a Co2 tank.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

These are some of the claims that carib-sea makes about eco complete.

. Contains live Heterotrophic bacteria to rapidly convert fish waste into natural food for your aquatic plants

.Unsurpassed MacroPorosity for healthy roots and bacterial efficiency.

As I said, when I remove rocks and plants I see very little mess. That sounds like a logical outcome that would result from the above claims. I believe this, plus the 5" of wisteria covering 60% of my tank is helping with algae control. Also a while back when I left my filter off all nite I had no negative side effects.



My Scapes

I'm sure it doesn't work much different from other subs. The important point is that the bad stuff is kept in the substrate and out of the water column. Heck Amano's powersand comes complete with Ammonia ! Should be algae/GW heaven right ? But once it's in the substrate and out of the water it's ok.

I guess it's another good reason to have herbivores like shrimp and snails. Clears up that rotting vegetation real quick.

I noticed in the past that has tanks got older and the mulm built up that algae was more difficult to keep at bay. Part of the reason I changed the substrate completely last year.

I find too that the smaller grains of substrate like the Eco or filter sand are easier to keep clean as the mulm tends to stay on top and is easy to suck out at water change. The bigger grains seems to trap more mulm in the bigger cracks and gaps in the gravel.

Notice LF has a bigger grain then us .......(that's NOT a cue to change the substrate, Ingo )

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

that's NOT a cue to change the substrate, Ingo

Ok, I will try to restrain myself

Yeah, vacuuming the mulm of the gravel was almost impossible in the past as there were plants everywhere. Since the latest overhaul (2 weeks back) I have the front open and vacuum lightly the top of the gravel (don't want to dig in too deep to NOT stirr up some gunk). Nevertheless, this open area sees fast growing green threads on the gravel.

luvmykrib - Thanks for the trimming advice

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

So back to my lighting theory.

How much for how long?

It seems that a lot of your plants now aren't really fast growers or real demanding of light. Such as your cyrpts and anubias.

Maybe do a low to mod light for most of the day with a kicker to high light for a couple hours in the afternoon would work better. That is if you are running high all the time. Isn't that what Ammato or whatever his name does?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Wings,

Since pretty much the setup day (with a few mishaps, but none of these in the last 2 months):

Lighting Period 11h - 10AM to 9PM
Lights: 2x96W = 1.54wpg for 11h
4x96W = 3.07wpg for 3h starting at 1PM, ending at 4PM

What do you think?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thats interesting...

Oh my 40G I am running 3.25 wpg all day... well about 12 hours a day. But I have different plants than you(the big three plants in my tank are hygro's and they are weeds).

Here is my resent thinking on things. (look out!)

Higher light = faster growth = more ferts being taken up.

So in my tank with high light for longer my plants are going to be driving full force all day and taking up more ferts in comparison to yours. I guess here is the punch line then: are you adding too much ferts for the lower light for most of the day + having a good hand full of plants that aren't sucking it up as fast(anubius and crypts?).

Just probably over thinking things... but its weird that I haven't had any major algae issues(yet..) Maybe you should email Tom and ask him whats up...

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Since were comparing lighting periods:

Lighting Period 11h - 9:30AM to 8:30PM
Lights: 1x96W = 1.33wpg (9:30AM to 11:30AM, 5:30PM to 8:30PM)
Lighting Period 7h - 11:30AM to 5:30PM
Lights: 2x96W = 2.67wpg for 6h


My Scapes

are you adding too much ferts for the lower light for most of the day + having a good hand full of plants that aren't sucking it up as fast(anubius and crypts?).

After many thousands of posts and over a year of posting can we get off the too much ferts and "not sucking up" thing
It doesn't work that way. Excess ferts don't cause algae. Not all being "sucked up" doesn't cause algae. The whole point of EI is to dose an excess to make sure nothing runs out. Doesn't matter if they aren't all sucked up, no harm.

Looking at too much fert and you are barking up the wrong tree and will get nowhere. You will see toxicity and dead fish long before you see any algae with excess ferts.

The problem is elsewhere.

Lighting seems fine.

To remove existing algae without over trimming try a 3 day blackout. Should kill most of it if not all. Plants won't mind a bit, they'll be fine.

After blackout continue with normal dosing, you should have a stable regime by now. Keep everything stable for a couple of months. No major changes, add plants whenever you like. See how that works out.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

I strongly agree with Bensaf. I've been saying for a long time (look back at my posts) this is a waste / mass thing. Bensaf is being more specific and I believe has good insight on the "churning up" of this waste into the water column. I've been dosing 3/4 tsp no3, 5ml flourish fe everyday on top of 10ml flourish and I have not seen any hair or thread algae or any other type.

Consistent routine and small moves seem to be a hugh plus in keeping things clean and stable. It's been two weeks now since I cleaned bba off my main rock and I don't see any new growth yet. It may be too soon, but I honestly think I'm beating the bba in my tank without using excel.



My Scapes

It's been two weeks now since I cleaned bba off my main rock and I don't see any new growth yet.

After Co2 the most important factor causing algae would be mulm - BBA can access the carbon from decomposing organics very very easily, far easier then plants. And we've already proved how important carbon is for BBA to flourish.

Tetra raises another valid point. He's adding what he's adding and not getting algae. So if high FE or high P causes algae why doesn't he have it, or me ?

If you suspect nutrients are the other folks adding the same amount having algae ? You can rule things out.

In LF's case we can rule out nutrients (or least excess nutrients). So what does that leave ......
Light? Well can you reduce that to just running the 1.5 watts for the entire period. See what that does, that will rule that out. But I don't that's an issue really , but it can be proved one way or the other easily.

Co2? Easy to prove - turn it up.

That just leaves stability. Well we know how to handle that, so try and see how that works. It's another thing that can be proved/ruled out.

After that there's not much left.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Blackout, haven't thought about that option in a long time, so long that I actually forgot that it can help killing existing algae. Guess I get too old to remember such things .

Anyway, here is a poll.
I received my diffusers yesterday. I am not sure about their quality though, they are made in China. Also, why is an 8 coil better than the short one? So, the poll is as follows - Next Step should be:

1) Add plants (Wisteria and such) and leave everything else the same
2) Change to the Diffuser (8 coil) and leave everything else the same
3) Change to the Diffuser and add plants and leave everything else the same
4) Don't change anything and do a 3 day blackout first, then add plants only
5) Don't change anything and do a 3 day blackout first, then change to the Diffuser only
6) Don't change anything and do a 3 day blackout first, then change to the Diffuser and add plants
7) Other, please explain

Which one of these options do you think I should attempt?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Oh,

I almost forgot. Here is a picture of the diffuser shipment. The larger ones state "Made in China" the smaller ones say nothing about where they have been produced, and acrually one of them seems to have a crack. Plus, I could swear that the small ones advertised had 3 coils while the ones delivered have none. I will have to check the site again.

Are they any worse than the ones you guys run?

Attached Image:

Diffuser Shipment

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I vote #6. Kill off the bad stuff. Then start preventing it with the better CO2 and plants.

BTW, the one on the left is the one that I have. Seems to be working ok but I am not overly impressed with the bubble size even after the bleach baths.

Edit:
Sorry about taking steps back....

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

OK,

That is one vote for lights-out first and then plants/diffuser and no vote for anything else .

If possible then I would like to know within the next 10 hours if there are more opinions as I would start the lights out tomorrow (Thursday) and end it three days later (Sunday). Whis way I will have the time to do a water change right away when the black-out ends.

And just to know: I guess I simply unplug lights and CO2. Do I throw a blanket over the tank to shade it from even room light?

Thanks in advance,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well, I don't know if I could pick a number but since algae won't grow in a blackout why not clean up the tank throughly before the blackout, this way when you turn on the lights the tank will already be pretty clean.

So I would suck all the gunk, trim plants, etc. and then lights out. Then I would have wisteria or other good plants at the ready. Plant densely, you have the lights to support that.

I would definitely use the diffusor. It's more efficient I believe than that big reactor, so unnecessary. The difference between your reactor and the diffusor is like the difference between an old b&W TV and a plasma.

BTW - While your tank is blacked out it will give you an opportunity to scape your 29G.

My Scapes

I vote for no light. Don't give the aglae anything to work with.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

i reckon you should give the tank a clean first and then do no 6.

ps i dont know if i made the 10 hr time limit but its only thurs morning here

OH TOLEEDY!

I've tried the big Boyu one. It works just fine. The bigger one is supposed to be for bigger tanks. The marketing says the longer shape keeps the co2 in contact with water longer. pile of crap to be honest. The small one work just as good IMO. I changed to a smaller one just to take up less space but keep the Boyu as my back-up in case I drop the small one or do something else stupid.

Why'd you get 4 BTW ? Are you going to split the Co2 line , run all 4 ? If running 2 try a mix of the big and small see if there's any difference or which you like best.

Don't forget to fill them with water. This you will find remarkably difficult Let them soak in a container of water for a few hours/days , they'll eventually fill.

For the blackout it should be complete, not even room lights so cover the tank or keep basement lights off. Switch off Co2 of course.

Personally I'd do the blackout then clean up, water change and add plants and diffusers immediately after , then regular dosing maintenance for a few weeks and see how it goes. Works ok then gradually play with your scape . Add plants whenever but removal of plants or movements of groups of plants should be steady and gradual.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Why'd you get 4

Cause LF is an ANIMAL!

My Scapes

Votes For: Leave it alone.

For what it's worth, (I know I'm not one of your trusted cabinet members, sitting on the fence between the light and dark side) I agree with everyone a few pages back. Too much tinkering. Let it settle into a groove for a few weeks(let Stella, obvious choice of name for your tank, get her proverbial groove back). Keep the ferts in there and the CO2 up, and wait it out. That's what I did, except I turned my CO2 down, which brings me to my other point - my home made external reactor can kick your diffusers butt. Try getting 40ppm of CO2 using less than 1 bubble per second with the diffuser. Besides, it makes for nice white noise when you have loud people in your apartment. Between the nice bubbling of my CO2 reactor, and the slurping sound of my overflow on the salt tank I have no trouble motivating myself to go number 1.

I finally believe in most of the EI teachings(MOST MOST!). This is hard for me to say....I've been against it for quite some time. I remember seeing bensaf's tank right when he first logged onto FP and muttering to myself and shaking my fist at my plants. His green thumb is only bested by his ability to turn a glass box into a beautiful underwater forest scene (my thumb on the otherhand, brown as it is, is equalled by my lack of vision). My first two attempts at EI were very unsuccessful though. The first time I blame completely on inconsistant CO2, the second I went too much by the books. Now I have my own tweaks and what not of the basic formula, but I can't argue with the recent proof in my tank. It looks pretty dang good. And the plants have color. My plants looked at least as bad as yours, LF, and I never scrubbed anything(except glass and plastic things), uprooted a single plant, or blacked out the tank. I just turned the photoperiod down(more wiggle room), put the ferts in, and let it get it's groove. I'd say it's taken a month and a half just keeping things normal for it to come around. I think you should try that as well. It might be too hard for you to leave it alone though.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

After many thousands of posts and over a year of posting can we get off the too much ferts and "not sucking up" thing
It doesn't work that way.

Do you think we'll ever get it?

Votes For: Drives Bensaf nuts before we get it

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Votes For: Drives Bensaf nuts before we get it

Oh Matty, they drove me nuts loooonnngggg ago. Many's the night I spent banging my head against the apartment wall 'cos it felt more productive then dealing with my "sons" (although I have a couple of daughters now )


Nice to see you pop back, when you gonna give up playing with those darn sea rocks and come back to the color and glory of the underwater forest ?

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Well, I was afraid that when I open my log this morning I will find a) no responses or b) varying suggestions. In good old fish/plant keeper fashion you followed path b) .

I guess the first step in the learning process (for the 100th time) is patience and as such I decided not to rush things. My tank will not turn into a monster if I wait one more week and discuss the topic a little more with you folks - if you don't mind.

Basically what I get is that I should add plants and switch to the diffuser. And most (except Matty) suggest a balck-out. Let me (us) think about it some more, but I guess in the meantime I should not add plants as they would potentially be exposed to the black-out before they can settle.

Why did I get 4 diffusers? That is easy to answer - because I can .

No, seriously, in no particular order:

- I pay shipping once
- I wasn't clear what the output difference between a large one and a small one was (like Bensaf, I also questioned why the coils would do anything)
- I want to keep the option open to split the line (discussed somewhere like 30 pages back) and use the same diffuser type on both ends
- I also played with the thought that I may use 2 different sizes on a split line
- If I don't split the line then I have the option to alternate the diffuser, meaning I don't have to change them during water change and putting in a clean one takes less than a minute
- Last but not least, like Bensaf I believe that having a backup cannot harm in case I drop one

Matty: thanks for the input . Leaving the tank alone was pretty much what I tried to do after the first overhaul, maybe not for long enough though. I couldn't wait any longer then as the threads where really kicking into gear and threatened to take over completely. I am worried that I am at a similar stage now. During your month and a half of letting things settle - did the algae increase, and if so by how much?

Dan: You sure made the 10 hour time limit . Thanks for the input, you should add your wisdom more often.

Ok, thanks again for all the input (to the regular participants in this log as well),

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

when you gonna give up playing with those darn sea rocks and come back to the color and glory of the underwater forest ?

Ahhh, I think I'm hooked, unfotunately. Check out this new coral I got(none of my plants come close to that color):

ooooh, aahhhhh

During your month and a half of letting things settle - did the algae increase, and if so by how much?

Some algae increased, like the green puffball type, and the BBA. I also had some green spaghetti type stuff, it looked like I accidentally dropped some algae(chaetomorpha or brillo pad) from my "sea rocks" into my planted tank. I've never seen that in a freshwater tank before(and I thought I'd seen ALL the algae). It was pretty easy to pull out, and I don't see it anymore.

The last week saw the decrease of those, with only the stubborn BBA still holding on in a few places. If I would just go in there and trim it out it would probably be gone forever. Might do that saturday on water change day.

Unfortunately (for your knowledge purposes) the thread algae disappeared really quick. Maybe in two weeks. I'm sure it was a lack of nitrates that caused them in my tank. Coulda been a lack of PO4 or anything else, the tank totally bottomed out, but I've never had a problem with that particular algae and I've always had nitrates, up until I traded my angels.

If I were you I'd turn the photoperiod down to 9 hours with 2 lights and 2 hours with 4 lights. Keep up with the dosing and water changes for a couple weeks. If there's no improvement in algae(the plants will probably suffer a little), I won't argue with the blackout. IMO though, it's not a cure to the problem. It's a quick fix, and the algae will come back. They've been around long enough to be able to survive that sort of thing. Especially for only 3 days.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Check out this new coral I got(none of my plants come close to that color):

Nah, looks like an infection I once had, a dose of penicillin cleared it right up

I have a friend here who owns the biggest marine aquarium shop in Indonesia (he's a westerner too) , tons of great stuff. Prices are unreal, you'll cry at how cheap things are and of course everything is caught locally so it's "fresh" as fresh can be almost the same as popping out for quick scuba and collecting your self.

BTW $1 = 9,000 Indonesian Rupiah
www.aquarium-laut.com

I've been tempted to give it a shot but don't have enough time.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Dang, I saw some stuff for 10usd that would be 5-6 times that much here. Not fair man. I think I'm going to move out there. I didn't happen to see any blasto's like mine though. They aren't too common, I've been waiting around for months for some like these.

Nah, looks like an infection I once had, a dose of penicillin cleared it right up

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

No other comment to Bensaf's infections

So, tomorrow during the water change I will exchange the reactor with the diffuser. I envision to place it rather low on the left glass panel, in the middle between back and front. Way up on that panel sits the spray bar. I think the bubbles should get caught in the current from that bar and be dispersed throughout the tank.

Sounds right?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Bensaf,

I am so going to have to use that one at work on the SW geeks!

LF,

I think you are on the right track. What are you thinking for the black out or no black out?


55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Wings,

Good that you bring up the blackout again, as we hopefully still have Matty's attention:

Matty - I take it that you don't think the blackout would do anything good at all. I understand what you mean when you say that algae is around for quite a while and will come back when the situation is right again. The question I have to you now is: Do you mean literally that the same algae is coming back or that new algae will be back because conditions haven't changed? My solemn reason for the blackout would be to get rid of existing algae as I cannot remove my hardscape without making a major mess again. Changing to another CO2 distribution method (diffuser) and upping my P are the counter measures taken to make the environment more hostile to new algae. Under these conditions, do you still think that a blackout would be useless and if so then why?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

What I mean is that under no light conditions you will kill algae, yes. This might help you get an edge on it. I've only heard a blackout work long term a couple times, and that was because the tank conditions had changed before the blackout in a way such as to discourage their growth permanently. In those cases, had they not used the blackout, I beleive patience would have served just fine, because conditions were growing harsh for the algae.

Just my opinion, but it's a quick fix, a band-aid, duct tape. There is no way to eliminate algae from your tank. There's some in mine(obviously). There's some in bensaf's tank. Amano has it, just like everyone else. It's waiting for the right conditions to spring up. The blackout will also have an effect on your plants. They won't like the dark either, but they won't die(hopefully). However, they will stunt a little, stop growing, and what do we know happens when plants stop growing? The door is wide open for algae, it's just about who recovers quicker. If the conditions are right for plants, you get a leg up on the algae. If the conditions are the same, the outcome is the same as before. If in fact, the conditions favor algae, a blackout can be bad news, and I've had a costomer experience that, didn't sound pretty.

The best thing about working at an LFS is that you can give people the facts and some will take it one way, and others will go a different route. You get to see what happens under a lot of different circumstances in a very short amount of time. It's like having 100 tanks to play with(but you don't have to pay for it). People that tend to make headway are the people that turn the lights down a notch(able to turn up later bit by bit), add more plant mass, more CO2, balanced nutrients(it's very hard to explain the thoughts behind EI in 5-10 minutes), and do water changes regularly.

I had a guy with a 55 tank and the 4 foot coralife fixture(I admit that I forget the wattage maybe 130?), no CO2 and dirty fish. He really wanted live plants so I pointed him to a bunch of types and told him the more plants you get the easier it will be, and to get a lot of fast growers. Against my wishes, he picked maybe 6 different plants, mostly slow growers. He went home and set the lights on for 12 hours. We all know what happened here. So he comes back and asks why it happened. Good guy. Most costomers throw fits and make children cry(yes, some lfs workers don't know everything, but the average costomer is far worse than any lfs worker who doesn't know the scientific name and max growth of every fish in the store). After explaining things a little I sent him home with 10 bunches of stem plants and some anacharis. When he got home he turned the lights down to 9 hrs. He thought the anacharis was the ugliest thing he'd ever seen. Now it's his favorite joke, something like it's growing out of the tank and eating the pets and different pet shop of horrors type stuff. Nowadays(2 months later) I ask him how his algae is doing and all he has to complain about is the anacharis. -The End

EDIT: Oh, and I'm not suggesting you go get a ton of anacharis, though it would probably have a good effect, it's just the plant mass reliable growth thing.

EDIT: And by the "they've been around long enough" I meant the billions of years of evolution thing(not in your tank). Algae and cockroaches are prepared for armageddon. We can't kill it, only maybe contain it. You know if people can't kill something, it's hardy.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Well Matty,

You for sure presented some very convincing and encouraging point

And I also understood what you meant with algae being around a long time (I already understood the first time you said it).

That is exactly the reason why I decided not to rush the situation with the blackout last Wednesday night. Input like yours is too valuable to come to late.

Thanks again,

Ingo

EDIT: Oh, and before I forget: this customer with the plant/algae issue, he thinks anacharis (egeria najas/densa) is the ugliest plant? Has he seen Hornwort?

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club