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Two of my 3 and a half Crypt Lucens. I have them since over two months and they used to be located right in front of the Apons (invisible from the front of the tank).

They haven't done much in the meantime, maybe gained one or two leaves. Is that normal? Now they are to the right of the big wood group more towards the foreground.

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Crypt Lucens

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I went to the LFS today to check on some plants and to see if they would like my Espei. Unfortunately it was very crowded (every Saturday that is the case) and on top of it I saw a tank with juvenile Espeis. I have to say that these don't compare to mine at all. Mine are much fuller and more colored up, which shouldn't be too much of a surprise given that these in the LFS have been shipped from Asia and must be very stressed on top of it. In short, I didn't ask if they want mine as I guess they have enough at the moment.

Anyway, I got this plant. They only had one of them, Crypt Lutea. It came in a small pot with the wool and after removing the latter I planted it as one unit close to a rock. It is just a little shaded (not much) by an Anubias Barteri. Should I have attempted to separate it? Bad spot?

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Crypt Lutea

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The other plant I bought was a small piece of Narrow Leaf Java Fern ( $ 6 ). I just squeezed it in a gap between the rock and the driftwood. Bad idea?

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Narrow Leaf Java Fern

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Here is another shot of it from a little further away (to see it more in perspective to the scape)

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Narrow Leaf Java Fern II

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Last but not least, another Pearl shot. This time their pattern blends right into the air bubbles that rise in the tank shortly after the water change.

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Pearls

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Nice pics LF. I guess most of the young espei survived "Extreme Makeover"

I like the Crypt Lutea. Looks like a good spot.
It's amazing how slim the plant pickings are at the stores.
It's funny to see some highlight plants in the stores that are under lowlight knowing that if they aren't sold within a few weeks there pretty much dead.

I was alittle surprised one of my LFSs had a 125g in the back with only plants in it. In neat rows with two coralife fixtures on top. This was the store I got the riccia from a few weeks ago. When I went back it was all gone and I noticed alot of it in a mess floating with some duckweed and lots of algae all over it.

I'll be posting some pics later tonite after my water change and planting of the Rotala wallichii, but I think I have to renew my premium membership. (As long as my wife lets me)

I'm gonna say a prayer and drink a few brews hoping our tanks don't lose power tonite.

My Scapes

I am with you tetratech,

How much are we supposed to get? 6 to 12 inches, right?

Snow, in case the others don't know what we are talking about.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Same deal in Massachusetts. 8-16 inches is conservative they said. I just hope for your fishes sake it isn't icy down in Jersey. Good luck!

20 Gallon Long:
Aquaclear 300
2 Bolivian Rams, Mikrogeophagus altispinosus: Gumby and Pokey

Ok first things first...
The first crypt question. Crypts are substrait eaters and they might need some type of tab fert and maybe more light?

Secondly....
Do you guys get lake effect snow? Where I go to school here in more centeral Mi we get some but its nothing like what I get back home right by the lake. Must of my fellow students don't understand..

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Sunday Morning, 7 AM:

So far we had maybe 10 inches, but it keeps on coming down . It is supposed to be over by mid afternoon, I think.

Anyway - Wings: Crypts are (for the most) low to medium light plants and don't require high light. My substrate has a layer of Laterite and also should have accumulated enough mulm to keep the Crypts happy.

On other notes: I added the Rainbows from the QT to the main tank last night. Here they are all bagged up:

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Rainbows coming in

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Soon after release the fish were still a little shy, here is an Espei checking on the new tankmate (male):

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Check out the new Dude

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The same happened to the girls. Somehow quite a few Espei huddled behind this one for a while. Maybe she got so stressed that she dropped eggs?

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The female being investigated

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But soon after, the Rainbows became more dominant and stated to chase older Espei away and seriously went after young Espeis as a food source. No kidding when one of you (I think it was Wings) said that they are fry control.

Well, here is a picture of the Male Pearl who made sure that even the Rainbows know who is the real boss in the tank. He frequently swam up to them, not in a threatening fashion, but making sure they get out of his way when he comes even closer:

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The Boss

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Here are two males starting to explore. See the one with the missing dorsal fin piece? I wonder how he lost that part - I am sure he would be able to tell quite a story. I mentioned much earlier that he had the missing part since I got him, it seems to be too severe to grow back. My handicapped male

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2 Dwarf Neon Rainbows

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And here is a close-up of a female Rainbow:

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Female Dwarf Neon Rainbow

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And lastly - A male

I think he is the leader

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Male Dwarf Neon Rainbow

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Well don't know how much snow we got, but let's put it this way I had to dig a path 6am this morning so my dog could do his business.

Anyway nice pics LF. Glad the rainbows finally made it to the show.

BTW - Do you put your lights on earlier on the weekend? Just curious since your pics are from this morning.


My Scapes

tetratech,

The pics are from last night just before lights off. It just took me until this morning to filter out 7 pictures from the 80 that I made (and trim and resize them).

Ingo

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The Yard Fish are having fun in the snow, and breakfast is served

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Yard Fish

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Isn't it crazy how many pictures we have to take to get a few good ones?

Rainbows are looking nice! I am not sure if I said that they would be fry control but I am sure that they will help matters. Right now I have quite a few guppy fry in with my Rainbows but I also feed my fish pretty well.. Do your pearls do anything to them? Are they schooling nice? Mine hang pretty tight. Makes me a happy guy.

Edit:

I know that crypts don't need super light and you do have a good sub down but maybe a lot of the good stuff has been taken up already.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Just popping in. Great pics LF. I LOVE the snow pic, gorgeous. Keep 'em coming

As for the crypts, they grow slow no matter what. From what i've read parva is by far the slowest, wendtii is like hygro in comparison.. the others are also slow and fickle. It may just be that it hasn't gotten settled since the replant. Maybe it'll take a few weeks? (by which time you'll be ready to uproot the whole damn thing over again )

Off to pay attention to the snow and my visiting gf now...

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Back in the saddle!

Weekly Tank Update - Week 20

This week hasn't seen much change from last weekend. Fertilizers have been added as usual, which may or may not have been a good idea. During this weekends water change I notices quite an increase in thread (short) and even Staghorn Algae, the first one in particular on the back glass (and a few plants) and both on the Cyperus Helferi.

I added two plants to the tank, as suggested (but still small) a small Narrow Leaf Java Fern and a Crypt. Also, on special request by Wings, I replaced the rock on the left with a bigger one .

The Dwarf Neon Rainbows have been added to the tank last night and when checking on them this morning they were not schooling. Instead, each male was chasing after a female, and at least one of them seemed receptive to the male (the one I believe is the leader). I don't think I will have more babies though at this time as the tank is not jungle like enough to provide sufficient hiding space for tiny fry.

The weekly updates are only 5 pictures, as I showed a lot of details already on the previous page and top of this one. Now I only provide a short trip through the tanks evolution.

This was just after the initial planting:

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Week 0

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This is week 5, the tank has already been through its weed phase (used to speed up establishment) and is beginning to be scaped:

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Week 5

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By week 10, the scaping had become the main focus of the tank, many plants were moved and removed and new ones were planted:

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Week 10

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Week 15 was the beginning of the jungle days, plant growth was so immense that it became clear that things will have to change:

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Week 15

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Week 19 was that change during which the biggest replant since the tank's existence was performed:

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Week 19

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Now, the tank as of today, one week after the last picture. Not too much change, but plants begin to re-establish themselves and some growth can be seen as well:

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Week 20 - Today

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LF,

Better rock. It will withstand the jungle to come a little better but I think tall will be better down the road...

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

The tank looks great Ingo!
I think the narrow leaf java fern will do a good job where you tucked it. The rock will start to disappear a bit. Anubias seem to prefer to be shaded, at least mine do, I had to move some as it was getting covered in algae where it was. I also like different anubias grouped together for effect, they tend to complement each other. As for the crypts, some of them probably take longer than others to really become established. It took mine almost a year and they are all common types. If you don't move them around anymore they should start to grow more.

The snow! I'm SOOO jealous! That's where it all went! We have not had any real snow fall this year, it's going to be a rough spring and summer if we don't get any! My poor roses and fruit trees may suffer winter kill, not from it being too cold but from not having any snow cover. And my poor boys haven't gotten any good tobogganning in this year either. Enjoy all that snow!

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Actually I think some crawling wisteria would look great around the base of that rock and wood. I actually found some wisteria rooted into my driftwood the other day.

My Scapes

Actually I think some crawling wisteria would look great around the base of that rock and wood.

LF didn't spend all that money on DW just to surround it with weeds.

But seriously tetra, did you do some sort of wisteria dance to make all the wisteria in everyone's tank grow like crazy? Because mine is not only the second tallest plant in my tank, it's also crawling like mad, taking over my HM....

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Back in the saddle!

But seriously tetra, did you do some sort of wisteria dance to make all the wisteria in everyone's tank grow like crazy

Glad to hear it. Yes in fact, anyone who comes in contact with the Wisteria Wizard should have great success (As long as they stay on my good side.) If not, I will make your wisteria do some ungodly things.

Actually I find it very handy to have around. When I planted the Rotala Wall. I had to remove some and I couldn't beleive how many layers I had. When I setup my 12g as you could see I shoved as much as I could into the back of the tank when I started getting BGA. I really think it helped clean up the water. I also notice because of the leaf size it leaves enough space for corys to rummage thru.

My Scapes

Thanks all for the input

ONE year for the Crypts to establish themselves? I seriously doubt that mine will ever get established then .

Wisteria in front of the driftwood? That would be right on the glass. Are you sure tetratech?

Ingo

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Wisteria in front of the driftwood? That would be right on the glass. Are you sure tetratech?

It would have to be plantede between the rock and dw and on the left back corner of the rock. As it grows in some of the leaves would wrap around to the front without it being to full.



My Scapes

ONE year for the Crypts to establish themselves? I seriously doubt that mine will ever get established then

It took almost a year for mine because
A) Low-light conditions under 1 wpg
B) Constant rearranging by moi
C) Possibly underfed (Fertilize? why?)
D) All of the above

Yours are starting to grow one week after re-planting, I doubt it will take a year, they probably just needed some breathing space (don't we all?)

Tetra thinks we all need wisteria in our tanks, is the stuff the cure-all for everything? Maybe we can cure the common cold with Tetratech's Amazing Trained Wisteria TM!
I have to admit I still want some though, the water sprite is driving me mad! Oops too late! Already there!

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

What lights do you have on that tank?

We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl year after year

hckycoz - I have 386W (2 x 96W 5,000K plus 2 x 96W 6,700K) power compact fluorescent lighting plus 6 moon lights (LEDs) from Coralife. This, and a few more details, can be seen in my profile. Welcome to FP EDIT: and nice signature, Pink Floyd

luvmykrib - Yeah, looks wise Wisteria seems to be prettier than Water Sprite, but that plant has its purpose as well, even if it might be only used as a helper in establishing a new planted tank (like in my case).

tetratech - I guess I will have to think about it. It sounds interesting and maybe one the large rock that holds down the drfitwood goes out then there might be an even better spot for it.

Ingo

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You will need to figure out what to put in place of that rock eventually. How long until it becomes waterlogged anyway? I finally gave up on the piece I was floating in my water bucket, it didn't seem to want to sink...ever! I get the Geosystems driftwood or the bulk stuff from the Big Al's store in the city, then it is sure to sink.


I just wanted to show off my gold star!

I finally did it, after the practice one which I aced I couldn't seem to get them all right again!

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

I get the Geosystems driftwood or the bulk stuff from the Big Al's store in the city

Luv, what is geosystems dw and you must be from the Florida area. Have you been to that new Big Als 18,000 ft store?

My Scapes

Florida is a long way from where I'm at. I am an Alberta CANADA girl. The frozen North is my home, we send our Alberta clipper down that way to remind you guys what cold feels like, well at least we used to! We are finally getting that cold snap I was expecting way back in November.

The Big Al's in the city is in Edmonton, the Capital of Alberta, it is 20 mins from where I'm at.

Geosystems is a new line from Hagen, it is a natural biotope system. The kits are cheaper than the waterhome line in some cases. Wish I had seen that when we got the tank! The DW comes in differing sizes and is usually plastic wrapped or in a box. I like it because it will sink without needing to be soaked, just rinsed and in it goes. They have a line of natural gravel, stones and also a guide for planning your tank. Choose what biotope your fish will be from and then it gives you a selection of gravel, which plants to choose, what water parameters to aim for, pretty much what you need. I find it to be fairly flexible as well, but I am not a cookie cutter kind of person, I always colour outside the lines and the sky isn't always blue either.


"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Luv,
Excuse me had a senior moment. I did notice the Canadian indicator. Reason I said florida because I know Big Als has started to open retail stores in that state and wanted to see if anyone's been there.


My Scapes

You are forgiven, I wish I had been there, or anywhere for that matter. It would be a lot warmer than here.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

luvmykrib,

Congrats on the first gold star, now hold it tight so you don't lose it again

And I am sure tetratech is hiding quite a few goldstars in his avatar and one day soon he will show us all 10 .

About the wood you buy at Big Al's. My LFS has driftwood packed in plastic as well and it works great in my smaller tanks. Only problem is that it leaks tannins for quite a while, but that is only a visual issue.

About my tank: it seems like thread algae is getting settled in. Every day I see a little more. I am dosing the same ferts than before the change. My guess would be that the plant mass is just too little now and plants are still working on estabilshing themselves.

And another thing, in case it helps identifying any imbalance: about half of my Rotala Macandra stems have the top section melting instead of forming new leaves. Just the tip of the plant.

Ingo

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Check nitrates.

Macrandra is picky. Not enough No3 it will stunt , too much No3 it will stunt

Any other plants showing similar ? Smaller leaves , curled crinkled leaves ?

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Macrandra is picky. Not enough No3 it will stunt , too much No3 it will stunt

Then what to do about the poor starving Stargrass?

My Scapes

No, no other plant seems to show similar issues, I would assume to see first signs on the Pearl Grass with its tiny leaves - but not (yet).

I have no issues with the Star Grass, except that some leaf tips turn black (no algae).

Ingo

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I have no issues with the Star Grass, except that some leaf tips turn black (no algae).

Actually what I meant was if you start to lighten up on No3 for the Macrandra

My Scapes

Hm, so you assume I am overdosing at the moment? Might very well be.

Daily:

1/2 tsp of Potassium Nitrate
1/8 of Potassium Sulfate or 1/8 of Potassium Phosphate (one one day day, the other on the next)
17ml of TMG

Ingo

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Not saying your defintiely ODing just if you decide to cut current levels to see affect on the rotala.

Seems like alot of no3 especially since you cut out so much mass. Amano builds up levels to match mass, but we all agree no3 doesnt' cause algae.

My current dosing.

3 times/week

.5 tsp no3
.05 tsp po4
15ml flourish

I haven't dosed so4 separately in months.





My Scapes

tetratech,

I don't care about the sulfate either it is the K that I am after. I don't want to add too much P so I alernate between Potassium Sulfate and Potassium Phosphate. Remember, I got that high tab P.

Ingo

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let me get this straight you fertilize every day (ingo) or every other day (Tetra)? Considering that my plantload seems heavier than Tetra's I should then move mine to somewhere in the middle I guess? currently I'm dosing twice per week

Yeah Dr.,

EI suggests to dose at least every other day, whereby you dose macros on one day and micros on the other, both 3 times a week. This leaves you with the day before the water change off (except feeding the fishies, of course).

I broke my dosage in half and dose every day to maximize the stability of the nutrient level.

Ingo

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Considering that my plantload seems heavier than Tetra's I should then move mine to somewhere in the middle I guess?

That's the beauty of EI - there isn't one exact dose you need, you're just shooting to get nutrient levels within and broad range, and keep them stable in that range. Three times a week for N and K isn't far out, that's what i do for my 46 gallon. I do 1/4 tsp KNO3 and 1/8 or slightly less K, then Flourish on off days, total 15ml per week or thereabout. In tetras case he has a lot of fast growers in there, tons of wisteria which can suck up nutrients. I think he also likes to keep N high for the stargrass. I try not to dose too much N because I have a relatively high fishload and i think my rotala likes it a little on the lean side. It depends on your plant load but also kinds of plants.

If the schedule Bensaf gave you is working then the results speak for themselves. You can adjust a little bit here and there to see if there are any changes, but the "good" range for are quite broad so you need not worry about hitting a specific target level. Just keep up the weekly WCs

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Back in the saddle!

Considering that my plantload seems heavier than Tetra's

That's an interesting question I first glance yes, Dr. Bonke's tank has much more vertical mass, but I have a thick cushion of wisteria covering about 80% of my substrate and it is several layers deep. If I stood my tank on it's side. I would have 4 feet of the stuff.



My Scapes

Then what to do about the poor starving Stargrass?

This is where plants Macrandra become a pain.

It may be with the same dose of No3 and less plants that it is not been consumed at the same rate so has built up slightly and the Rotala doesn't like it.

Should you reduce No3 to perk up the Rotala ? Well, I wouldn't bother. Keeping No3 levels low to satisfy one plant is a crap shoot. You risk messing up the others. Not worth it IMO. Keep things going and if the Macrandra doesn't like it - tough.

If other plants show syptoms look more closely.

If it is No3, the plant mass will gradually increase to previous levels and consume more, bringing things back into a range the Rotala likes and it will recover quickly, it's a real fast grower.

Leave things be. Only change if you think things are too low. Usually the best change and the best results is to add not decrease.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Don't take me wrong. I'm not suggesting high No3 is the Rotalas problem. It's one of a number of possibilities. The fact that you are seeing algae would indicate the opposite.

Re-check everything , especially Co2. When problems occur I almost always increase not reduce. More Co2, more N and P, more micros. It is almost always too little of something, hardly ever too much.

It's just that macrandra is funny, too little it's not happy, too much it's not happy. They are the nagging wives of the aquatic plant world.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Bensaf,

Thanks for the advice, I was not intending to reduce the amouns of ferts.

The one thing I did 2 days ago was to move a small powerhead that was on the left to the right. That area used to be a little under-circulated and maybe the increased water flow will help evening out the ferts some more. This is not for the Macandra but an attempt to reduce the thread/staghorn algae.

BTW, the new Crypt Lutea seems to settle nicely. Leaves are responding to the light influence and have repositioned themselves to catch more of it. I might (at some point) take it out from its slightly shaded spot and place it in open light.

Thanks again,

Ingo

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Well,

I haven't had much to say in my log in 2 days, but the ever increasing algae is worth a mention.

Here are 6 pictures of the tank as of today, water change will have to wait as my back does not permit me to drag heavy items (like 5G of water). Pulled a muscle from shoveling snow, getting old I guess.

Ingo

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First a nice one. The center group with wood and Star Grass is looking nice, I think:

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Center Group

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Here is a closeup of malfunctioning/disformed tops of the Rotala Macandra:

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Rotala Macandra

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How about some Staghorn on the Cyperus Helferi:

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Cyperus Helferi

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And the same algae on the gravel:

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Staghorn

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Now some thread algae on the Red Rubin Sword:

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Red Rubin Sword

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And last but not least, even the new driftwood is getting a layer of Thread algae

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Driftwood

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LF,

Hey, even your algae looks nice . They are good pictures. I was just wondering if thats duckweed floating on the top of the tank or if its something else. It looks cool.

Chaos


__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

The center group with wood and Star Grass is looking nice, I think

Holy Maintenance! It does look nice, but are you crazy putting that stargrass around all that wood.

I think you know my humble opinion on your algae. Forget how much no3, po4 and micros your dosing, this has more to do with light and waste. With your light you have less wiggle room and more room for the algae to creep back in, especially after a major change like you did.


My Scapes

Chaos - Yeah, that is duckweed, but I would advise against it on a small tank as it can spread really fast and shade the whole tank. My tank is pretty much covered in 3 to 4 weeks, although I always only leave a few in.

Tetratech - I need more plants, darn

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Wad the algae up into a ball and make some tribbles!


________________________________________________
I like Led Zeppelin.

Ingo,
Looking at the last few algae photos I'm getting a slight deja vu. The stuff on the wood and plants look exactly the way it did on mine before it got completely covered. And yesterday I too found a few threads of staghorn in my tank I'm going to follow you very closely now to see how you will get rid of that Otherwise, great looking!

bodangit - hm, thanks, I guess

Dr. - I had worse algae before, at the time my tank was not established yet. It makes perfect sense that similar events happen now, given that

a) I thinned out the plant mass by at least 50%
b) I uprooted all but one species (although interestingly it is the one with the most threads and staghorn)

Actually, the Cyperus had already some algae while the tank was redone. It definately came from the Xmas moss that was on the rocks and jumped over to leaves of the Cyperus as they bend onto the moss. As a slow grower, it makes sense that the algae feels pretty happy there.

Although I haven't made my mind up completely yet, I am pretty sure that I will start one week of Excel treatment today (after the water change).

Ingo

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hi ingo


long time reader first time poster

sorry, bad joke.

anyway , how are your rainbows doing?


cheers dan

OH TOLEEDY!

Yeah Dan,

All the entries I make in your threads, you owe me quite a few

The rainbows are doing just fine. The peruse the tank, sometimes alone and sometimes as a group, but no tight schooling. I also see some males having interest in the ladies, but I would be surprised if any fry would turn up any time soon.

And keep on posting, will ya

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The Rotala is stunting.

That and the algae my first impression would be low Nitrates.

I'm not a fan of the daily dosing routine you are doing. Trying to micro manage and limit the doses is troublesome. Some plants can grab N quicker and easier then others. By try to add just enough per day is running the risk of one or more species getting left out of the food hunt.

Dosing about 10ppm 3 times (more then even the nest tank can consume in a day) a week will ensure everything gets it's share.
I also see what looks like some white dots on the rotala leaves. White dots on this plant would indicate FE shortage.

Again, I'd be looking at nutrients and adding more. Start with Co2 and N.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Weekly Tank Update - Week 21

Well, as has been discusses, I am having a small Algae problem.

I couldn't do to much with the tank during the week and during todays water change as my back went out on Wednesday from too much snow shoveling.

What I did was that I added about ten smaller stems of the Bacopa from my 29G, just to increase the plant mass a little.

Also, based on Bensaf's advice, I decided to go back to bi-daily fertilizer routines. I also start another round of Excel treatment.

Today, I added 1tsp Potassium Nitrate and 1/4 tsp of Potassium Phosphate. Also 50ml of Excel. I will add 20ml of TMG later, just to get the micros a head start.

Tomorrow I will add another 30 ml of TMG, the following day the macros again, and the following day 30ml of TMG. From there on it will be the same amount on alternate days. Plus 20ml of Excel on all days (for a week).

I also replaced the sponge in the reactor with a new one, just in case, and beefed up the CO2 to "just below constant stream".

Pictures of this weekly update will be the last 3 weeks since this setup came into being. There is for sure some growth to be seen, in particular the Star Grass likes it in there ( right tetratech? ).

Ingo

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Week 19, just after replanting:

Attached Image:

Week 19

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Week 20

Attached Image:

Week 20

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And today, week 21:

Attached Image:

Week 21

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Star grass is going nuts.

I would work that has the high point and slide everything down to the corners

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

I know your having some algae problems, but the tank is looking good and will look amazing once it fills in even more.

Today, I added 1tsp Potassium Nitrate and 1/4 tsp of Potassium Phosphate

Curious why are you adding n and p in a 4 to 1 ratio? I must be missing something.


My Scapes

Curious why are you adding n and p in a 4 to 1 ratio? I must be missing something.

1 tspn of KH2PO4 doesn't give the same ppm of phosphate as 1 tspn of KNO3 gives ppm of NO3.

So even if does 4:1 powder doesn't equate to 4:1 ppm.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

So even if does 4:1 powder doesn't equate to 4:1 ppm.

Glad it's an Estimate Index.
When I check the fertiliator (assuming it's correct) I would have 5.9ppm to 1.8ppm of N to P, a 3.3:1 ratio if I dosed the same way. I forget it's late. What is your source of N and what is your nephew's?



My Scapes

Should have checked my calculator before I said anything shouldn't I ?

Strangley Chuck's calculator differs it gives a result of 7.26ppm of NO3 and 1.77 PO4. Pretty close to a 4:1 ratio

Hmmm.... I wouldn't worry about the P, but that number for N is a bit low , and if the Fertilator is correct I'd consider that a very low dose

I'd definately be looking at upping my NO3 dosing. This nothing to do with ratios , it's just not enough NO3 going in IMO.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

tetratech and bensaf,

Glad you bring up the calculation again, as I haven't used any calculator in a while.

I would assume that at best I have 115G of water, if not down to 100G. With the 115G I get around 8ppm of N from 1tsp of KNO3. True, this may be a little too low, but what about all the N-forms that are produced by over 100 fish?

P would be at 115G around 2ppm at 1/4tsp, that may be too high, so maybe I should go down to 1/8tsp. Inparticular because my tab has P as well (supposedly, when measured a way while back, 2ppm).

Any thoughts?

Wings - thanks for the suggestion, I will see more when the plants have settled yet again

Ingo

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Wow that is something I haven't thought of. Less water to treat because of all the junk in the tank.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Wings,

Yeah, I think when you have such a big tank that has an overall volume of 125G then you see some major differences in net volume. What I don't know is if these deductions (like over 200lbs of gravel, various rocks, and the wood) have been considered when the calculator formulas have been put in place.

Ingo

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You have to start displacing a fair amount of water with all the gravel, wood and rocks. Then as your plant mass grows that has to have some effect too. Maybe not as much as the rocks and such. Food for thought though.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

but what about all the N-forms that are produced by over 100 fish?

Forget about it. You can't measure it so don't think about it.

The fish waste will be in the form of NH4. Plants will consume this before they consume NO3, it's easier to access the nitrogen in NH4. So if the NO3 is being consumed it means the NH4 is also being consumed.Beforehand.

NO3 won't cause algae. The tiniest smidgen of NH4 will.This is why the idea of adding more fish to increase NO3 rather then dosing doesn't work. The fish first produce NH4, dangerous, KNO3 is inorganic and safe.

Now , knowing you guys the way I do I am sure you will try to make a case that your current problems are due to fish load. Knock yourselves out.

I believe your problem is low NO3. Add more and see the results.A bit more inorganic NO3 won't hurt anything. Tetra will testify as to what happened when he increased doses. I believe it was all good. /:'

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

What I don't know is if these deductions (like over 200lbs of gravel, various rocks, and the wood) have been considered when the calculator formulas have been put in place.

Didn't need to. You do that yourself. You can enter any volume of water you like. It's up to you to calculate how much water in your tank. Just because you have a 40gal tank doesn't mean you have to key in 40gals. You can key 30,35,55 etc.

But again, you don't have to be that precise. ESTIMATIVE Index.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

I know... its all a big guess!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Glad it's an Estimate Index.

But again, you don't have to be that precise. ESTIMATIVE Index

EXACTLY, well not really. That is the key ESTIMATE. Don't worry about hardscape and exact gallon content.
To excess

The tiniest smidgen of NH4 will.This is why the idea of adding more fish to increase NO3 rather then dosing doesn't work. The fish first produce NH4, dangerous, KNO3 is inorganic and safe.

But there is a direct relationship between fish load and algae, with light and mass being the controling factors.



My Scapes

Ok Ok Bensaf,

I will switch to 1.25tsp of KNO3 and 1/8tsp of Potassium Phosphate, every other day . Happy now

Anyway, I will bring up tetratechs point (and mine) some more.

Fish load and NO3 fertilization: We all agree that plants prefer ammonia etc. over KNO3. Ammonia is only present in a tank with fish (or if someone adds fish food or ammonia for some reason). I assume (proof me otherwise) that ammonia is the same nutrient that the plant need than the one it gets from NO3. If you have no fish then all of this nutrient has to come from NO3. If fish are present then ammonia will be taken up first and only then the NO3 will be consumed. If you have a lot of fish then you may reach a point where only very little of the NO3 will be taken up because soooo much ammonia is available. Ergo, my assumption that I need less KNO3 than calculators tell you.

Am I wrong?

Ingo

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Got bored so I took some more pictures:

Here are two Crypt Wendtii surrounded by Pearl Grass. They just don't seem to grow that well in my tank(s):

Attached Image:

Crypt Wendtii

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The Alternanthera starts to show itself, now that it finally gets some light:

Attached Image:

Alternanthera

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The Boss of the Neons:

Attached Image:

Male Dwarf Neon Rainbow

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And one of my "Millions Fish"

Attached Image:

Espei

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LF,
I think there is always some waste/nh4 in the tank even without any fish. Decaying plant leaves, stems, uneating food will eventually get broken down into waste. And certainly the more plants the more likely the plants will get at the nh4 before the algae has a chance, but with less mass and good light the algae have a fertile environment to take hold.

Crypt Wendti:
Why do you think this plant doesn't grow well?
Nice pics, I really do like the rainbows. I am tempted to put a few in my tank. Do you know if they would eat my shrimp?

My Scapes

Ergo, my assumption that I need less KNO3 than calculators tell you.

We are actually stepping back about 53 pages now.

All true about the NH4. But as I said you can't quantify it. So how much do you reduce NO3 doses to account for it

All this time and almost 2000 posts later you're still frightened of the nutrients.

Why even bother to reduce the No3 dosing to allow for fish waste? No3 is an inorganic source of N it won't cause algae. So instead of trying to do calculations and allowances for an unknown just add the No3. A little excess won't hurt, a shortage will kick your butt

At this stage of the tanks life you have a lot of plants and a large bacteria colony, NH4 will disappear almost as fast as it's produced.

Keep up with the NO3 dosing, give it 2 -3 weeks and tell us what you see.

For the crypt I always find they do better in planted in groups of 3 or so. They look a bit sad on their own. In groups they seem to go into competition mode and try to outgrow one another.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

I have 9 rainbows in my 40G and they don't touch my glass shrimp. You have some other much cooler types that I don't have a clue about though.

Edit:

Crypts. I have two in my tank and they are growing really well. I just moved one though because I got a new anubias so I don't know what its going to do. Being the plant guy at work I have had to crpts flower. Don't know what I am doing right but its cool stuff.

Oh you guys will love this... My boss today told a customer that the plants I have been feeding at work don't need any extra nutrients other than what fish are giving them...because its a big tank.... Some days....

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

For the crypt I always find they do better in planted in groups of 3 or so. They look a bit sad on their own. In groups they seem to go into competition mode and try to outgrow one another.

ITA with this. All my "bushy" crypts started out as a tight bunch of at least 5 individual plants. In the tank where I space out the individual (or 2-3) plants, they don't get as bushy, but spreads out runners to other parts of the tank.

BTW LF, are my eyes bad or is there a little bit of green/hair algae on the leaves of your crypts?

-P

tetratech -

"Crypt Wendti: Why do you think this plant doesn't grow well?" I have them in the tank since the beginning. When I added them they had about the same number of leaves. Yeah, new ones came, but old ones always melted away. In none of my tanks do Crypt Wendtii have more than 5 leaves each.
And I think that the Rainbows will leave the shrimp alone.

Bensaf -

Deal, I will keep up this dosing and see what happens. To be continued ...
On my next re-arrangement I will try to group the Wendtiis.

Wings -

Thanks for the info. Are your crypts grouped?

Paulus -

Thanks to you for the cypt info as well, gives me already two people with similar experiences.
And yeah, this is thread algae . That is what the recent discussion on NO3 is all about. Your eyes are just fine .

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Paulus,
wow good eye! I had to go back and look for it.

LF,

Mine were not grouped. They were probably 5 inches apart. Now they are even farther apart. The once at work are not growing like mine but they are pushing flowers. I would try adding in some root tabs. They might want more nutrients. Remember our cool substraits will not last for ever.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

We are actually stepping back about 53 pages now

Just wanted to second that emotion. Maybe it's the natural cycle of the log. Another 50 pages from now we'll wondering whether KNO3 has been causing that hair algae again

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Back in the saddle!

Ingo - Out of curiosity, have you tested the nitrate level in your tank recently? I'm just wondering approximately how much nitrate you have with all those fish in there.

-P

Thanks Wings for the update on your Crypts

Paulus - No, I haven't tested anything in at least a month, if not longer.

I used to test quite a bit in the past when I used 1.25tsp of KNO3 every other day (for a while already, not when I started) and my kit (faulty or not) read way over 20ppm, even with less fish. It took over a week of no ferts and 50% water change to get the value around or below 20ppm. Even if the kit was not accurate (tetratech strongly belives - and tested for it - that the kits show way too high of a value), I could see the tendencies and how much is consumed over time. This was the reason I switched over to daily fertilization and reduced dosage (0.5tsp per day).

Ingo

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Fair enough. You know what I think you need? Some SAE's. They should take care of your occasional hair algae problem, provided you get a group (at least 3 for your size tank) of very young/small juveniles. I know it doesn't solve the root of the problem, but sometimes you can go nuts (or round in circles, in your case ) trying to figure out every minute detail when we know there are a lot of variables (fish stock, amount of waste, plant mass, etc.) at any given time that could contribute to the problem. Just keep dosing the macros.

I know SAE's can get fat and lazy when they get big (esp. when they're alone), but since you have a lot of voracious fish in that tank (espei, rainbows) the SAE's should be outcompeted for food and grow slowly.

Just my 2c.
Cheers,
-Paulus

-P

My SAE hasn't got fat and lazy yet, he's a very active member in the tank, although he doesn't eat as much algae as he used to, he can be seen nibbling when he's hungry. I tend to underfeed, then sometimes I offer algae flakes before offering the regular flakes. This tends to get him thinking right again, and it seems to be good for the other fish as well.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

It was mentioned a little above this entry that my algae and nutrient issues have been discussed 53 pages back. Well, SAE have been discussed maybe 15 pages back and overall there seem to have been more disadvantages than advantages. I initially thought I would like to have them, but couldn't find any in the LFSs, then I decided not to get them and a week later the LFS had a whole tank full.

So for the time being, no SAE for my tank, but thanks anyway for thinking about it as an option .

Ingo

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Gang,

I added a plant ID thread in this forum, if you haven't done so already, could you be so kind and try to help me with the ID by Clicking Here.

Thanks in advance,

Ingo

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Well,

It is 3 days since my last entry and not much has happened that would be worth mentioning, except:

I have been following the new fert routine to the dot, meaning every other day 1.25tsp of KNO3 and 1/8tsp Potassium Phosphate, and the days between 40ml of TMG. In addition, after the water change I added 50ml of Excel and then every following day 20ml. I was curious if this would help the thread/staghorn algae that seemed to be starting to become an issue.

Did it help? No - this kind of algae is still there, spreading even further. Unfortunately, I am now also getting BBA on a few plants, like the leaves of the Cyperus Helferi and Crypt Retrospiralis. Also, the Anubias Nana and Barteri have some odd black markings on them that I cannot identify. It looks like someone had blown dirt over the plants and some of it adhered to the leaves. I will try to take a picture of it a little later in the day.

Also, I will measure some parameters, I for one thing bet you that I will get very high readings of Nitrate and Phosphate. This are the times when my tank makes me angry as I seem to be incapable of figuring out the right levels of ferts. Or maybe it isn't the tank that makes me angry, maybe (most likely) it is myself.

Ingo

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Also, the Anubias Nana and Barteri have some odd black markings on them that I cannot identify. It looks like someone had blown dirt over the plants and some of it adhered to the leaves.

Ingo, do you remember me mentioning the "black algae" on the leaves of some of my plants in my thread (3rd post)? I'm pretty sure it's the same one you're seeing in your anubias. Still don't know what really caused it, but it hasn't come back since I removed the stems that had it.

-P

Paulus,

It seems to be different as you say your leaves turned black beginning at the edges. My edges are fine, there are little specles all over the leaf surface.

I used to have the algae that started on the edges and that was for sure BBA. And it reacted very well to the Excel treatment.

Ingo

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Nope, the one I was referring to looked more like black dusting over the leaf surface, particularly in the middle area (not edges). It was most ounced on the hygro polysperma & stricta's leaves. I can't rub the black off with my fingers, they seem to be fused to the leaves.

-P

Ok,

here is a picture that shows what I mean (Paulus, just like yours? ). It seems to be not confined to any particular part of the tank, and exists on probably 40% of all my Anubias leaves. Grrrrrr

Attached Image:

Spot Stuff

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Gang,

I just did my water change, but not before measuring Nitrates and Phosphates. To my surprise, the Nitrates seem to be within the level, maybe a little over 20ppm (maybe even 30) but not what I expected. Phosphates, on the other hand, are where I expected them, 5ppm. Way too much, just like the last time when I dosed them rather frequently (then I caught it only when it was already 10ppm). I have faith in my phosphate test kit, believe it or not, as I performed extensive dosing tests to the tank to see how the kit will change colors. I have a tab of 2ppm, which should be the maximum given 20ppm of Nitrate. I will cut back on phosphate dosing, I started already by not adding any today, just the 1.25tsp of KNO3 (plus all the other stuff, baking soda, Equilibrium).

The Retrospiralis hasn't taken too kindly on the separation into smaller plants when I did the major overhaul a few weeks back. In good crypt fashion, half the leaves have been or are melting. Similar, the narrow leaf sags have some melting going on, they are also not too wild about the replanting.

An interesting fact: I finished 1 pound (US Pound) of KNO3 today. Just for the fun of it, this means:

- The tank is up and running for 154 days
- I added about 2.9432g per day (1 pound = 453.28g)
- This means I added about 0.54tsp per day
- And it means I added 3.81 ppm per day

I also removed the rock on the right and replaced it by planting this area with clippings of my Narrow Leaf Ludwigia from the 20G (needed trimming anyway). I figured if I don't like it I can take it out again, but more plant mass is probably good right now.

Pictures will follow tomorrow,

Any input is appreciated,

Ingo

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Ingo, yup I've seen those spots before on my anubias' and radican sword's leaves. The ones on my hygros are more like black dusting, not as distict spots. Could be the same thing though, just shows up different on different leaves. Oh well, I guess we'll just have to wait until bensaf identifies it.

-P

Ingo,
In regards to the anubias pic. Isn't that a form of beard/brush algae.

Interesting facts about no3 consumation. Did you buy the no3 from gregwatson. If your not placing a full order you could use the Greenlight Stump Remover available at Lowes. It's pure potassium nitrate.

Looking forward to seeing your pics, manana

My Scapes

Ingo, check out this thread I think you'll enjoy it.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showthread.php?p=94640#post94640


My Scapes

Looks like brand new BBA.

Check and re-check Co2.

I've had similar stuff, it just stayed that way never got furry like older BBA. I trimmed it off.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Thanks all for your input on the Anubias spots. I bet you it is Phosphate related. 5ppm is just too much. My CO2 is turned up higher than ever before, too fast to count bubbles and almost a constant flow of air (well, not air but CO2, you know what I mean).

Anyway, I went to the basement this morning to get some ferts for the 29G and saw on light beam fall into the tank through the small window behind it. I grabbed the camera and took some pictures, most of course were pretty bad, holding the camera steady is not that easy in almost no light. Anyway, I thought I share the best 3 pictures.

Here is the beam falling into the tank:

Attached Image:

Let there be light

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And here is another one. A real close-up of the light hitting just the top of a Pearl Grass.

The colors are broken down by the tank glass I guess, but I liked it.

Attached Image:

Pearl in the light

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And lastly, the top of the Star Grass got an extra load of light.

Yeah, I know it is time to trim it as it begins to float along the surface, so maybe next weekend I am going to do that.

Attached Image:

Stars in the light

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Interesting pics, but is the reason your showing this because their nice to look at or are you feeling it is related to your algae issue?

I forget did you start getting the algae before you rescaped with the wood. I think you were, but it got worse after the rescape.

We are living by the same code as far as ferting (I like that word) , the only real difference is lighting and I guess stocking levels. Again I don't think tweaking ferts here and there is going to change anything. Remember it's an estimative index.

My 2 cents if you want it is:

1.Do semi-weekly water changes. With the python it's really not that big of a deal.
2.Pack as much biomaterial you can into your Eheim. Use purigen in the filter as well.
3.Add floating plants
4.Feed less (I'm not saying your overfeeding, but just feed less)
5.I'm sure you doing this, but make sure you do the tetra dance in full attire at least twice a week. You could do it during the water changes to save time.

My Scapes

Weekly Tank Update - Week 22

I will incorporate tetratech's last entry here in this weeks update as it relates directly to the issues at hand, namely algae.

Well, first of all - no, the sun beam pictures were posted purely for their artistic value, even if I am not that much of an artist . I don't think that the 1 minute when the light hits the tank (and it is just a reflection of light from the neighbor's house, not even direct light) has anything to do with algae.

And tetratech - I don't think we are in the same boat with ferting. Every time when I dose Phosphates I have problems like this one. It might be a coincidence because I always tend to dose more by the broad rules after major changes, but I strongly believe that 5ppm of Phosphates does not mean that I "micro manage my macros" - this is 250% of what the Phosphate should be. My tab content is very different than yours and yes, my fish are creating phosphates as well. No more phosphate adding for the next 2 weeks .

Overall, I added two crypts to the tank that are still small, but seem to start to develop new roots - a good sign. Certain plants, in particular the Star Grass, are growing like mad, while others develop black spots (BBA, as Bensaf points out) or are even reduced in number (Duckweed - but don't tell me I am low on KNO3). I added clippings of Narrow Leaf Ludwigia from the 20G to the right hand side to increase the bioload.

EDIT: Feeding a little less sounds good, and yeah - I will try the dance more often, if it helps .

No more talk, more pictures . Here is a nice shot of the Alternanthera, for the first time ever this plant is really kicking into gear.

Attached Image:

Alternanthera reineckii

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Here is a picture showing the cuttings of the Narrow Leaf Ludwigia. As you can see, they are very small but the plant is a fast grower, or at least used to be when it was in the tank originally. If all goes well then I will have to trim it the first time in about three weeks.

Attached Image:

Narrow Leaf Ludwigia

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Now, for the full tank shots I don't want to bother you with too many pictures of the same, with just minor growth differences. In anyway, a fair comparison can only be made within the current design, and that is only 4 weeks old.

Here is the tank immediately after the dust had settled from the major overhaul:

Attached Image:

Week 19

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And here is the tank today. All looks good from the distance, but up close the algae is really kicking into full gear.

The Star Grass really needs a trimming soon, probably next weekend, if not sooner.

Oh, BTW, I was in the city today and went to a fish store there. Loads and loads of BBA, huge, in almost all of their tanks, plus many fish with fin rot and what not, plus too many dead ones. All plants in bad shape (they even had 2 bushels of Pearl Grass). But the Dwarf Rainbows were half the price then they are here, but I am proud of myself, I resisted .

Attached Image:

Week 22

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LF,

I really like what your tank is turning into. Starting to look a little jungle like again though. Not that thats all bad because we can see your 2x4's sticking out of it.

Edit: On the scape of things... I really think you should work high in the middle to low on the outsides. I am not a big fan of the tall stuff in the back corners. Maybe put that in the middle behind or on the edge of the star grass.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric