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L# Freshwater Aquaria
 L# Planted Aquaria
  L# LITTLE_FISH 125G Log
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SubscribeLITTLE_FISH 125G Log
NowherMan6
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Actually, although it is work, I see it as an exciting part of the hobby. I think I like the road to success as least as much as the success itself. And if all goes wrong, what is the worst that can happen? I start all over again and that would be exciting as well.


That's the one thing all these logs have in common: We never get to the point where we say, OK, looks good, I'll leave it as it is. There's always a new plant to try, another rock or piece of DW to add, another species of fish to look into. It makes it fun and it's very much part of the hobby. And as you correctly pointed out, what's the worst that can happen if things go wrong? You start all over again relive the fun of setting up.


Well, that and divorce, for the married set...

(Hooray for being 23!)


Back in the saddle!
Post InfoPosted 30-Jan-2006 21:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
luvmykrib
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Should be on a T-Shirt


"The hubby/wife said he'd/she'd leave me if I set-up one more fish tank in the house...
Boy am I gonna miss him/her!
Yippee more room for more tanks!"

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Post InfoPosted 30-Jan-2006 22:54Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Good point with the waste that might collect where wood and gravel meet.

Peronally I've never had a problem and I have alot of dw and rock in my tank but then again LF you don't have a grounds crew. "One reaction leads to another"

My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 30-Jan-2006 23:12Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
SheKoi
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good luck with the operation - i understand the wife problems - i've already had to get rid of two tanks but least she let me have my new 72gallon shes always moaning when i spend hours on water changes and aquascapping - they just don't understand. you never know she might even help out

what about the fish? are you going to leave them in?

i always worry about my ottos when i reaquascape you never know where they all are.

can't wait see the pictures of you operation!

www.blooming-brilliant.co.uk
Post InfoPosted 31-Jan-2006 10:53Profile Homepage MSN PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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you never know she might even help out


Yeah, I don't think so .

I will have to keep the fish in the tank, I don't have another container or whatever that could hold 100 fishies for hours (and keep them warm). Plus, it would take me about an hour just to catch them all .

The wood is, oh surprise, not sinking yet. The water in the tub was a light brown so quite a few tannis are leaking out. I gave it a scrub last night and refilled the tub with fresh water. I also observed some of the white fluffy stuff that grows on wood when freshly submersed.

The "Operation" will not start for a while, probably at least not until the weekend following the coming weekend. I am too busy at work right now.

In addition, I am considering of trading about 30 Espei at the LFS. I think I have too many now. They don't really school all that much anymore as no matter where they go some others will be there already . Maybe one of you would like to have them, I sell them for cheap (compared to the $4 they cost at my LFS), but no shipping, pickup only.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 31-Jan-2006 12:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
SheKoi
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just writing a nice little reply and the computer crashes

can't remember what i was writing now.

What you going to exchange you fish for? or do you get credit of some sorts - at my LFS i get half the sale price of the fish - so in your case get about $60 not bad

i'm getting used to my camara now - hopfully i can train my fish to stand still long enough to get a good photo like yours.
i've posted some on my log
http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/threads/12949.4.htm?83#

Have any idea what the snail is? i've had him for years must have come in on a plants.

do you have any problems with snails in the 125G? i try and check all the plants no - but it is hard to do.

just remebered what i was writing not even that informative - when i was soaking my roots i noticed that there were slight little cracks and holes which were filled with air - so by moving the pieces around releasing the air - helpped it sink quicker.

www.blooming-brilliant.co.uk
Post InfoPosted 31-Jan-2006 13:28Profile Homepage MSN PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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When you are rinsing and such are you using hot water? This will help the wood open up and trap in water.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 31-Jan-2006 23:44Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Getting it to stay completely down with no help could take weeks, even months. A rock is the best bet at this point, and can be worked into the aquascape as well. Win-win situation.


Back in the saddle!
Post InfoPosted 01-Feb-2006 00:26Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks guys,

Yeah, I am refilling the tub with rather hot water in the hope that it will open the pores (just like people's skin).

NowherMan6 - it takes quite a big rock to keep the main piece from floating. Currently I use 2 to hold it down in the tub.

Shekoi - Yeah, I have snails in my 125G, none of which has been added intentionally. There are ramshorn, trumpet, and pond snails. When I do my weekly water change I pick them up when I get the chance, otherwise I leave them alone. I don't think there are too many yet. I think I would like to exchange the 30 Espei for some more Rainbows . It is nice that you get half the selling price, my main LFS is a little cheaper, they sell them for $4 and indicated (and not even that is for sure) that they would give me $1 for each. I might have to inquire at other LFSs and see what they would give me.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 01-Feb-2006 15:24Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Dr. Bonke
 
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Ingo, at least you're getting something for your fish. None of the three LFS that I frequently visit give me anything for fish that I bring them. Last week I had to do a lot of fast talking for them to accept the three angels that I brought them. Getting 1$ a piece is pretty nice IMO.

Your wood will take a long time before it'll sink. Warm water won't make much of a difference I'm afraid, wood pores don't really work that way, they're fixed structures. The best way to do it fast would be to boil the wood. By boiling you make the air expand so much that it will force itself out of the wood, allowing water to enter and occupy those pockets. However, with a piece the size of what you're having there it may be rather difficult to find a big enough pan
Post InfoPosted 01-Feb-2006 16:16Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks Dr. for the input,

Yeah, I sure would need some big kettle to boil that sucker .

But seriously, I actually heard that boiling wood is not a good idea. Supposedly it destroys the cell structure of the wood and the consequence would be a much faster disintegration in the tank.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 01-Feb-2006 16:21Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Dr. Bonke
 
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I suppose boiling wood can do a little bit of damage, but it won't be terribly much. We're talking about dead lignified cells that basically just consist of cell wall material, which is mostly cellulose and lignin. These polymers are very resistant to heat. I've always boiled pieces of bogwood that I've had in my tanks. Some of those I inherited from my grandfather, who had them in his tank for many years, and he had boiled them as well. I've never had a piece fall apart on me or rot. If it indeed does increase the speed of breakdown, then we're still talking about decades I think, longer than any setup of a tank will ever exist.
Post InfoPosted 01-Feb-2006 16:53Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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LF,

If worse comes to worse I have something we can boil it in. You just have to take a trip to MI to do it. By the time you get back home it will be full of air again for sure!

55G Planted tank thread
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[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 02-Feb-2006 03:15Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Wings,

Sounds like a plan

Let's try to make this the most expensive piece of driftwood (in $ per pound) ever to be added to a tank. Purchase cost plus a vacation in MI .

I haven't had too much time to check on the wood for 2 days now and when I looked at it last night I saw the the discoloration of the water is rather minimal. That gives me some hope that it has been in the water for a while in its past.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 02-Feb-2006 12:42Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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LF,

Umm yeah... just let me know and I will get the giant pot ready with some fire wood!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 02-Feb-2006 23:00Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Well, without many words,

I did it, for better or worse.

It took 7 hours , quite a few water changes, lots of fiddling with plants, and what not.

QUESTION: I have Narrow leaf Ludwigia, lots of dwarf sags / chain swords, more crypt retrospiralis, Xmas moss, red rubin sword, and a red melon sword still in the water buckets. SHOULD I ADD ANY OF THESE, AND WHERE? I will dispose of the around 10AM tomorrow morning, my time (US East).

Here are 8 pictures, not many words though, I will write more tomorrow. No1, tank before change:

Attached Image:

Before



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Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 06:23Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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No2, Quite a few plants have been removed, the water quality is going downhill:

Attached Image:

First Round of Plant Removal



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Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 06:24Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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No3, A lot of plants gone by now, I am worried how the fish will handle this soup:

Attached Image:

More Plants Gone



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Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 06:26Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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No4, Only the Apons and Cyperus are left, a few vacuuming sessions later.

Attached Image:

Little Left



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Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 06:27Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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No5, The wood has been added, took quite a while and many curses until it was in place:

Attached Image:

Introducing the Wood



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Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 06:28Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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No6, Partial water change to up the water quality, filter was also rinsed (not too much though, bacteria - I know). The Apon had to go to, didn't like it anymore:

Attached Image:

Water Change



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Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 06:30Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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No7, Tank is refilled, more rocks are added. Do you see all the Espei :

Attached Image:

Hardware in Place



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Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 06:31Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
No8, and last for now. The tank is fully planted, except if you have some info and then I could add it tomorrow. I am intending to try my luck with hair grass in the front again, but I will have to get it first. I will go to sleep now, let me know what you think (even if you don't like it )

Ingo

Attached Image:

All Done



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Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 06:33Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bcwcat22
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Wow, I love the new drift wood and rock formations. Keep us posted on the tank.

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Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 07:35Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
ChaosMaximus
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Hey, looks awesome. Hope your fish enjoy the new scenery.

Chaos

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Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 08:27Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
upikabu
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EditedEdited by upikabu
The driftwoods look great, Ingo. I prefer the new look, much cleaner. I think you need more red plants though - the macaranda look too prominent as the only red plants. Maybe put the ludwidgia (I assume those were the reddish plants in the middle in the "before" pic) on the back right side (behind the driftwood & anubias).

I can't remember what your red swords look like, but I would try putting one on the far left corner, in front of the lone rock (instead of the few grassy plants - cyperus?). Maybe plant the dwarf sags on the front right corner, in front of the rock?

Anyways, looking good!

Attached Image:


-P
Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 09:11Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Dr. Bonke
 
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Hey Ingo, it sure is a lovely piece of wood, and I think you've found the best orientation for is as well. I love the way the roots are sticking upwards at odd angles, but why did you put it so right in the middle? It looks good, but in my opinion it would have looked even better if you had put it slightly off-center to the left. Now it forces your eyes to the center of the tank, and leaves the sides a little as an after thought. If you move it a bit to the left it will create a focal point on that side and leaves the right side of the tank open for other interesting stuff. Nice work in any case, in a couple of weeks it should be possible to remove that big rock, or alter its orientation a little
Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 10:12Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks everybody for the input

Paulus - Thanks for the drawings and your ideas. Here are the problems I have with the options you gave me:

- The red rubin is currently 3/4 of the tank height and takes up quite some ground real estate as well. I think it would be too big in the left front (twice as big as you were drawing it). The plants in front of that rock are sags.
- The Ludwigia could look nice there, but a) the tank is not deep enough for a group of plants behind the Anubias in the right back, b) the plants would get shaded by the Retrospiralis and slowly die off, and c) I thought I try an all green (besides a few wendtiis that one cannot see in the total shot) with one shockingly red area (silly me).
- The sags in my tank tend to grow rather big and would quickly make the rock (on the right) behind them meaningless and hidden.

I will take a closer look this morning and see what can be done.


Dr. - Grrr, you are right, the wood is in the middle. I didn't intend to make the branch group the center point of the layout, the group to its right is supposed to be the center. Ohlala, what to do? It is impossible for me to move it now, except if I am going to uproot quite a few plants again. Maybe I can wait until the wood stays down by itself and then take action, getting it in place was almost an act of violence .

The idea was that the pearl grass on the right of the wood would create a lower valley towards the Cyperus in the back. I guess by adding the Macandra to the left I managed to make this group almost meaningless, although I put a lot of detail in it (will show closeups later today - have to make the pictures first).

Maybe I go for tetratech's random chaos layout (not that he has that, but he mentioned Amano has something like that).

It never ends

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 14:21Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
SheKoi
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good job -hope you had fun

doesn't your tank make that bogwood look small? in the tub it looked huge now can hardly see it.

how long did it take you in total?

i'd let the plants you have in recover and spread out again before deciding what else to end - but do need something in the forground.

did you catch any of the espei to sell on?

are your ottos ok didn't throw any out by accident?

Karl.

www.blooming-brilliant.co.uk
Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 14:30Profile Homepage MSN PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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The wood looks good. It is a little centered but if it's major work to move it I wouldn't bother.

The Cyperus is a beautiful plant I'd probably prefer it behind the rocks but again if it's a headache to move It loks good where it is.

The Macrandra does look out of place mainly because it's out on it own. If it had more green behind and beside it, that wouldn't be so noticeable. It may work better in the spot where the pearlgrass is , but then you'd have to keep it a bit lower so it doesn't block the view of the Cyperus.

Keep the Rubin. I'd but it at the far right beside between the Cyperus and the Retro and behind the big Anubias there. Alternately it you move the the R.Macrandra put the Rubin where that is now. It'll balance out the reds a bit.

You are going to need a big bold species of stem plant that will make a statement and anchor the scope. Ideally that will go at either the location where the MAcrandra is or the location where the cyperus is. Depend which way you want to go. I've mentioned a few species before - Aromatica, Ammania, Stellata Broadleaf, Ludwigia Cuba. Something nig and brassy that you can build around.

The front left needs Crypts preferably something like Red Wendtii. The color and leaf shape will balance out the grassy sags etc.

Did you chuck all the moss ? The wood could do with some aging.

That part where the big rock is hold ing down the wood - fill it and cover up the structure with Narrow Leaf Fern or Wendelov. Again the darker more horizontal look will offset the vertical grassy types. Alternately a big dark Anubias Coffeefolia.

It's on the way. A few small details needed. Need to make the forground more interesting . I'm sure I'll think of more later.



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Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 15:12Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Bensaf,

Thanks boss

- yup, moving the wood is a PITA. The wife had to close the door to the basement so the kids don't hear me cursing
- The Cyperus, after all this time that it is in the tank already, has just gotten established (takes a long time to do so, as you mentioned way back when I got it). So it has to stay
- Macandra in front of the Cyperus sounds like a plan, I will give it a go in 30 min (lights on for fishies)
- Red Rubin in the spot where the Macandra is now sounds good too, I will add some more green grasses (Retro, I guess) besides (behind) it as it is not big enough to fill the whole spot
- Bold Stems: I still have 3 of the crippled Althernanthera that I couldn't identify. They are currently in front of the Macandra and invisible as they blend right in. Maybe I can make them grow better, now that they actually get propper light
- The front left has a crypt wendtii, red . It just doesn't show in the picture as it is too small (maybe 10 leaves) because it had been covered by dwarf sags / chain swords in the past (and Glosso).
- Yup, chucked all the moss. I think the wood looks great without it and I have enough of putting it on rocks. Major pain on pruning because all hardscape cannot easily removed for that purpose (big mess each time). I found moss in all plants from pruning cuttings
- There is not much space left in front of that giant rock to keep the wood in place. I might have to wait to finalize that aread until this rock can be replaced by a smaller rock.
- Foreground more intersting: Given that I place the Macandra in the spot where the Pearl Grass is now I will use that to plant a "lawn" of it in the front . Might not work too well, but I think it is worth a try. If not, I thought about hair grass.

Thanks again Bensaf,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 15:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Shekoi,

Sorry, only now saw your entry, thanks

It took SEVEN hours, from 10 AM to 5PM. I know this would have been the perfect opportunity to catch the Espei, but there was no time and I also have to check with the LFS first to see if and when they would like them. I thought about it, but I had to focus on one task at a time .

About the Otos: yeah, I got very worried as I found only 5 out of 6. I thought one might be in a plant bucket, but eventually found him/her munching on a Cyperus leaf (the only plant not removed from the tank during the process. So, all are accounted for .

I agree on no major moves at this time (except the ones mentioned above), besides the fact that I got to hear it from the wife anyway as I neglected my parential duties for yet another day.

And I agree on the foreground as well

Thanks,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 05-Feb-2006 15:49Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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LF,

So this is what you were going all day yesterday Remind me how you got your wife to allow another Saturday of tank work...


My comments aren't as rich and plentiful as the others, but my two points:

1.) Just to echo the need for different stem plant groupings - it seems there's so much grassiness going on there, some different leaf shapes in prominent spots I think would help out

2.) IMO the wood is fine where it is. On the one hand, I can see what others are saying - it feels like if you pulled it to the left 5 inches it would be so much better. But after looking at it the hardscape structure itself - the wood plus rocks - is off center, so it doesn't look awkward. My eye tends to see it the latter way now, so it looks good in my book


Back in the saddle!
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K,

Updated as discussed above. No more replanting today, the wife calls on my childcare duties .

Here is the tank,is it better now? Detail shots much later in the day (evening). Can you see some fishies ?

Ingo

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Latest Update



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Hey Little_Fish,

My fish reaction is WOW, what a difference. Now you have a good base to work with and you could fine-tune from here.
Yeah the DW grouping could have been alittle more off center, but I also believe you could work with it where it is. Yes more red would be nice, with just one red grouping it might pull your eye to that spot and conflict with the wood.

I have to give you alot of credit. It must have been difficult to tear the tank down, but it definitely paid off.

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bensaf
 
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Sorry last one was quick. Wife was screaming dinner ready !

- Bold Stems: I still have 3 of the crippled Althernanthera that I couldn't identify. They are currently in front of the Macandra and invisible as they blend right in. Maybe I can make them grow better, now that they actually get propper light


Reineckii is a nice plant, but I find it too bold and dark to be used in big quantities. Looks best behind bright greenery poking ouy the top in a tight bunch -dramtic. But needs to be tall.
Yep 2 reds together never works.

- The front left has a crypt wendtii, red . It just doesn't show in the picture as it is too small (maybe 10 leaves) because it had been covered by dwarf sags / chain swords in the past (and Glosso).

It'll grow taller with more light. Get more to fill out that far left front area. Maybe mix in some green types or different shapes like Willissi or Becketti. A big grove.

- There is not much space left in front of that giant rock to keep the wood in place. I might have to wait to finalize that aread until this rock can be replaced by a smaller rock.

That's why I was suggesting a fern. No need to worry about space.Plonk it on the wood or between the wood and rock. It will hide the fact that the rock is holding the wood down, so you can forget about it. The narrow leaf will give a nice horzontal shape to counter all the vertical grasses. Ferns are great for giving a sense of structure and depth. Having a couple of specimens of about the same size but at different heights gives a wonderful look.You can have one bunch where the rock is holding down the wood and then another bunch higher up -just wedge it in the v where a branch splits for example.

- Foreground more intersting: Given that I place the Macandra in the spot where the Pearl Grass is now I will use that to plant a "lawn" of it in the front . Might not work too well, but I think it is worth a try. If not, I thought about hair grass.

Foregrounds are very hard to too (probably why so many resort to the simple carpet).
What I mean is a few smaller structures to counter the larger main wood and rocks. Adds depth and interest.
What you've got at the moment is plant-small gap-rock-small gap-plant-small gap etc. Bigger but fewer gaps would work better.Tighten things up at the fron, don't be afraid of a few big open areas.
Example:you've got a few anubias scattered around. I'd be tempted to bring them all together in one area near the front and build a mound of them (you can use small rocks to support)maybe a few small river rocks scttered in front or to the side of this planting. Intersting little features like this with open ground between them will give added interest, a sense of order and depth.

Take a while look at the tank and try to visualize little areas of interest you can create.




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Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
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bensaf
 
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Just saw the new pic. Much better The macrandra works better with the green behind it and the rubin balance the color. Looks much more co-hesive now.


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I LOVE the tank's new look. It is not so much a jungle anymore. I like bensaf's advice on the anubias, it seems to have much more impact when grouped together rather than scattered. As things grow out again, more areas of interest will appear as well I think. Looks good! If it's alright with you I'd like to send before and after pics to my cousin, she wants a fish tank with live plants after she moves and is collecting ideas. I've sent her the link to this site and shown her your thread as well. All she had to say was WOW!

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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Weekly Tank Update - Week 19

Well, the title is rather wrong as I am not going to post past and current full tank shots, the events of this weekend overshadow any normal weekly update by far. The changes performed are dramatic and their outcome makes me feel like I want to introduce you to more details of the new layout. I think that a total shot (you can see it on the previous page of this log) does not reveal the details that this design offers.

But one thing about the general change: Plants that have been removed from the design are - Ludwigia Repens, Xmas Moss, Apons, and the Red Melon Sword, good by .

Now to the entries between my last one and this:

tetratech - Thanks my friend, an almost unconditional compliment from one of my scaping buddies is a rare event, I will have a beer in your honor. Yes, it was mentally very difficult for me to tear down the tank, I honestly can say that I was scared and very worried that I will create nothing but a big mess.

NowherMan6 - Yeah, that was what I did all day yesterday . How did I manage that my wife gives me the time for that - Well, I am sure I will have to pay her back for it one way or another. The start were my child duties today, but I am certain that many more chores will follow.

Bensaf - As you suggested, I will take my time to evaluate additional options. Right now I am just glad the tank is still running.

luvmykrib - Thanks for the compliments. Sure you can send the pictures to your cousin, with a few conditions of course: a) no additional publishing and b) she will have to sign a contract that she is going to read the whole thread which will be followed by a multiple choice quiz about it (just kidding, at least for point b). About the Anubias mountain (and this counts for Bensaf as well): I think you overestimate the size of the tank. Each one of my Anubias takes up quite some significant real estate. If I would put these 5 together I would think that I need at least a quarter of the entire tank just for them. Even if it is a good idea, it would have to wait as I am tired of major changes (for this week).

Anyway, hold your breath as the next 20 entries will be tank pictures. I hope I will not bore you to death.

Thanks for all the support, I could have done it without you folks.

Ingo


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The first picture was taken during the replant. It shows the enormous and entangled root system of the Crypt Retrospiralis. It took me a good 20 minutes just to separate individual plants from this block.

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Retrospiralis Mess



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Another shot from the replant. Can you say Espei ?

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Loads of Espei



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Here is another photo from yesterday, showing the Espei Autobahn (German highway, in case you don't know what that is - no speed limit ).

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Autobahn



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Now a 3 picture series of the tank, just to show some more details and their relationship to the tank. Here is the left side. I bet you that you cannot distinguish between Retrospirals and Narrow leaf Sags, they are mixed with each other. Also, the new position of the Red Rubin Sword is shown.

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Left Side



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Here is the middle, with Sword, Star Grass, and Cyperus in the back.

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Middle Shot



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Here is the right, with its new focus plant – Rotala Macandra.

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Right Shot



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An even closer look at the center, with the wood and the Jersey Star Grass (right tetratech? )

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Center



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And a close-up of the Red Rubin Sword, in front of it you can see the 3 saved Althernanthera stems, I just cannot let go of them.

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Red Rubin



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All the way in front of the Sword is this lineup, some Pearl Grass, 2 Crypt Wendtiis, and a sag.

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Front Part



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Here you see more of the right front corner. I gave the Isoetes Lacustris more of a visible position. More Pearl Grass and 2 Green Wendtiis complete that section.

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Here is the Crypt Wendtii in the left corner, actually - I guess it is a green one. Maybe it will color up now that it gets some light.

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Front Left



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A close-up of the Rotala Macandra group.

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Macandra



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A close-up of the 3 saved Althernanthera stems.

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Althernanthera



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The Anubias Barteri on the left, you can see that it is getting another flower (again). See the bubbles? I observed that all flowers of the Anubias do that before they open. I find it interesting as such a behavior is usually associated with an injured part of a plant.

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Anubias Barteri



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A close-up of the Isoetes Lacustris.

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Isoetes



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For all Oto fans, a nice shot of an Oto inspecting the new driftwood.

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Oto 1



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And here again, I guess there must be food on it already.

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Oto 2



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And for the Harlequin fans, here are two colored up males fighting for dominance (in front of the Jersey Star Grass).

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Who's the Man?



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And here is the winner. Compare his color to the female on the left.

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I am the Boss



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Last but not least, yes, babies survived the mess as well .

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bensaf
 
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Each one of my Anubias takes up quite some significant real estate. If I would put these 5 together I would think that I need at least a quarter of the entire tank just for them.


So ?

If you don't mind half the real estate been taken up by tall grassy plants why worry about 1/4 been taken up by broad darker plants to counteract ?


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If you don't mind half the real estate been taken up by tall grassy plants


Yeah, but not in one spot

I will think about it, maybe sometime I am ready for this

Thanks Bensaf,

Ingo


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EditedEdited by Wingsdlc
Wow! I go home for the weekend and this is what happens! LF! I really like the DW. Personaly I don't find a problem with the placement. Are you going to re grow everything back into a jungle again?

One more thing! I can easly see the rock on the back left side being eaten by your plants once again. Maybe a taller rock there?

P.S.
Dang you have a ton of fish in there!

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NowherMan6
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LF,

Just wanted to say great shots! Were they taken by the Tamron? Whatever you used, the texture of the DW is beautiful in that first oto shot.





Oh, and the oto itself is nice too


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Wings -

Thanks . No, I don't think I will regrow a jungle, at least not on purpose. Hopefully I catch better times when pruning is needed. Good idea about a larger rock on the left, I will see what I can do (without taking up too much ground cover). Yup, loads of fishies .

NowherMan6 -

Were the shots taken by the Tamron? No, they were taken by me . Yes, I think all really close close-ups were taken with the Tamron. I also love the texture of the wood in that Oto shot, this was the main reason this picture made it onto the site. Thanks for the compliment.

Ingo


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I think the new wood looks great, even if it is a bit centered. I think that the really great rock placement counters that a bit. All those rasboras look so cool! I'm disappointed that you got rid of the apons, but I'm well aware how much space they take up, so I understand why you took them out. I cant wait to see the pearlgrass fill in a bit, and that stargrass looks amazing! The rotala macandra really draws the eye, but as pretty much the only red plant in view, it looks a little out of place. I hope your alteranthera bounces back to add a little more pink to the aquascape.
Beautiful re-scaping!

Hoping that there must be a word for everything I mean...
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illustrae,

Thanks for the compliments. Sorry to dissapoint you on the Apon front, I just didn't really like it anymore. The yellowish/greenish leaves in bunches didn't make an impression on me. It had a nice flower once in a while though .

Thanks again,

Ingo


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LF,
The wood really looks nice, I especially like the shot that you reference the Jersey Stargrass. I just really like the way the stargrass looks with the wood.

One thing I did notice if I may .
I noticed one pick that shows a large size vertical rock on the left side that looks like it's very close to the front glass. Is that there as part of the design or simply to hold down the DW temporarily, becuase it appears to be too big for that position so close to the glass. Just curious.

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EditedEdited by weird22person
Wow. I just read the whole tread. It only took about a month.
Its a nice looking tank and i cant wait for it to fill in after the replant. Im surprised you removed the Xmas Moss because you seamed so concerned about its battle with algae.
One thing i did notice is that there is no movement on the bottom. Maybe a few cories?
Keep up the good work.
Now to tetratech's log...see you in about a month.

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tetratech:

One thing I did notice if I may


- I knew that the unconditional compliment phase would be short lived

I assume you mean the rock at the left of the driftwood trunk. Hm, it is there to hide the cut of the branch. This was the only position the wood really fit in nicely and it left the cut wide in the open and close to the glass. The rock hides that "unnatural" looking aspect of the driftwood. Remember when I had all my rocks further back? Within weeks you couldn't even see them anymore and I think that once things will grow a little this one will be less visible, although not completely hidden (I want to show my rocks).

weird22person - How brave of you
Now all you have to do is to keep up with the thread (and tetratechs, and NowherMan6s, and Dr. Bonkes, and all the others ). Cories are nice, but I think in the long run there will not be too much open space on the substrate. I will have to think about it. Thanks for the suggestion.

Ingo


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I want to show my rocks

If you must

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If you must





Come on tetra, keep it PG-13 in here. There are children about...


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uh, nowher I'm referring to LF's big rock near the front of the glass

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of course! Whoops, my bad... that's 4 years of all boys hgihschool talking there...


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AAAnyway,

Do you guys have a better idea on how I could make the cut section of the driftwood not be visible, I am open for suggestions.

I think you can see the area about 2 pages back on pictures of the tank during the redo.

Thanks,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 07-Feb-2006 19:26Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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doesn't a rock cover the cut end?

in the last picture page 51 i think - you can't see the cut

could you bury it more in the substrate.

i have the same problem with my bogwood, but i'm going to plant loads small plants right close to the cut end, hopefully hiding it.

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How about a small mound of anubias? Attached to smaller rocks and the piece of driftwood itself. I'm seeing the smaller form of nana and petite, or another nice plant I use for concealing things is java fern windelov, or both in a small mound. Then you could appease bensaf and conceal the cut end at the same time!

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Post InfoPosted 07-Feb-2006 19:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Appeasing bensaf is always a good idea

Below is a picture of the area in question.

There is no way it could be buried, that would have to be a huge mountain of gravel.

Doing the mount thing soooooo close to the front will create similar problems than the rock does right now. A mountain of plants really really close to the front glass.

Ingo

Attached Image:

What to do?



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Post InfoPosted 07-Feb-2006 19:52Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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I'm confused, isn't that part of the DW already blocked by a rock?


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Post InfoPosted 07-Feb-2006 20:11Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
luvmykrib
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I suppose there's no way of moving it back slightly, just enough that then you could conceal it with a smaller rock with some petite attached? I'm not thinking a HUGE mountain of anubias, rather a small tumble of anubias.

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Post InfoPosted 07-Feb-2006 20:22Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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I'm confused, isn't that part of the DW already blocked by a rock?

I think LF is trying to find alternatives to the rock. I mentioned it was too close and too big to the front glass.


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tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
O.K. This is my first reaction and it will keep all the nice work you've done intact.

Cut that thick base that's sticking up in the air (I mean water) on an angle and then take the same rock you had that was standing up, but now lay it down on the cut angle and plant around it. If it's laying down toward the back of the tank it will be easier to soften with ground cover etc. and will look more natural.



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Post InfoPosted 07-Feb-2006 20:30Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
luvmykrib
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First attempt at this painting on pictures thing so bear with me, here's sort of what I'm saying.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c56/luvmypetz/DriftwoodDilemma.jpg
This gives a bit of an idea of what I am seeing, I'm no artist, and this would also require a bit of space to do.

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Post InfoPosted 07-Feb-2006 20:33Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Oh, I see. I actually like the big rock close to the grass. It's unusual and certainly presents some opportunites for aquascaping with small plants. If I may repost one of LF's pics (below) I would surround the base with HC, and also have the HC creeping up the side between the rock and wood, blending them together. I've seen it used vertically like this before, plus as discussed in Chaos' thread, HC is a slow grower, not like glosso. Just my opinion, of course



Attached Image:



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Post InfoPosted 07-Feb-2006 20:34Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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You folks are cracking me up.

Well, let's see:

- tetratech: no way I remove the wood right now to saw off part of it, although the thought has crossed my mind. It took me 30 min to put it in place, and that was without any plants in the tank.
- NowherMan6: planting around the rock might be an option, I will have to see.
- luvmykrib: Sounds good, but this would be really Nana Petite then. How about a small Java Fern instead, maybe even attached to the cut directly (if I can figure out how to tie it on under water )? Some crypts might look nice as well, anything that doesn't grow too tall and would not cover the plants behind it from the viewer.

Thanks for trying ,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 07-Feb-2006 20:50Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
luvmykrib
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I think that was one of my suggestions, to attach a plant right to the cut end.
I use a slipknot for hard to tie things, it may be tricky but I think doable. Or if you can't tie the plant on, then a smaller rock with the plant on and that should also do the trick.
Yes I meant petite, I also am very fond of java fern (I've had to be) and both are prunable as well, so you can keep them smaller.

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Post InfoPosted 07-Feb-2006 21:02Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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no way I remove the wood right now to saw off part of it, although the thought has crossed my mind. It took me 30 min to put it in place, and that was without any plants

I guess looking at a pic, it's hard to appreciate how hard it would be to take the one piece of wood out.

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luvmykrib
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It's also hard to tell just how close to the glass the branches are. Pictures tend to have no depth perspective to them on the flat computer screen.

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Post InfoPosted 07-Feb-2006 21:35Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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luvmykrib,

Yeah, a small rock with the plant on it sounds good too.

tetratech,

I agree, it looks so easy to remove the wood and put it pack in. But its depth is as deep as the tank, its height almost as high as the tank, parts have plants woven into it (Star Grass and Pearl Grass), and other plants (like Anubias) are planted really close to it. No doubt I would have to replant at least some of them.

I will try to take a picture that shows it from a different perspective, but it will have to wait until tomorrow night as it will be too late today when I get home and too early tomorrow when I leave the house again.

Really, thanks for all the effort in helping making the tank (even) better.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 07-Feb-2006 21:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Then you could appease bensaf and conceal the cut end at the same time!


Hmmmm...... that's because I'm usually right ?

Ram some Java Fern - wendelov or Narrow Leaf in the gap between the wood and the gravel. Job done, no worries about shading etc.


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Post InfoPosted 08-Feb-2006 08:39Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
luvmykrib
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There's always a simpler solution than we can see, probably because we're so close to our own problem and need some perspective. As the other plants begin to fill in it won't be as obvious, but sticking anything in front of it will help to hide it for now.

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Post InfoPosted 08-Feb-2006 21:16Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
weird22person
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If you ever do deside to move it you could trim the edges to look more natural. Go at the thing with a saw and some heavy sandpaper.
And i see what you mean about keeping up with the thread. Dont you people have better things to do?

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Well I should do my homework but I am not so sure that would be better....

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As promised (although a little late), here is a picture of the rock to hide the stomp from a different angle. Just so you get a feeling of how close it is to the glass. The Crypt Wendtii leaf tip is touching the glass.

Attached Image:

Close Encounter



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Post InfoPosted 10-Feb-2006 01:00Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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And because tetratech and I had a discussion about "how to plant Anubias", here is a close-up showing how I root my Nana in the substrate.

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Nana in Substrate



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And, so we don't forget these guys, the Pearls are doing great in the tank

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Pearls Together



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Post InfoPosted 10-Feb-2006 01:02Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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And another one where you can see that the males' throat is turning orange. He is becoming a man , I can't wait for the first bubble nest.

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Pearls Again



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Post InfoPosted 10-Feb-2006 01:04Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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great photos again LF

did you say your bogwood was off ebay?

i'm after one that looks like roots for mangrove look, in my 40g, thinking of not having africansi just don't know!

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luvmykrib
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Ingo, the rock IS very close to the glass. It will be tricky trying to figure out how to disguise the cut end without getting too close to the glass.

The gourami's look gorgeous as well, you take great pictures!



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EditedEdited by Wingsdlc
We all should take a trip there and pick out what we want. That is really sweet! Think he would ship to the US?

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All,

Thanks again for the comments on the pictures. Although I sometimes think that I make good pictures there are other time when I feel more like the opposite is true. I have not yet been able to even once capture a larger group of the Espei in one photo. Either it is out of focus, or over-exposed, or under-exposed, or the fish don't show because there is too much green around them .

SheKoi - That is some pile of wood, 2 tons, wow. But they all look very chunky. Yes, I got mine of eBay, with the help of NowherMan6 who pointed my to this particular item (thank again).

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 10-Feb-2006 12:45Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Sorry to sound like a broken record, and please let me know if you want me to stop with the photography stuff, but there are a few ways of getting around the situation you describe regarding capturing the espei school. First set camera to ISO 1600. Next, and most importantly, when taking a shot of a large school you need depth of field. Camera blur is one thing, but with many lenses you don't realize how shallow DOF is at the max aperture (2.8 in the case of the Tamron) I can tell with many of your close-up pictures that either you or the camera is using the max aperture - part of the subject is in focus, but another part less than an inch away is blurred, this is the tell-tale sign. Schools don't line up one right behind the other, they are all different distances from the camera so you need to use a smaller aperture to capture all of them in reasonable focus. Set aperture to 5.6 minimum, see if you can get away with that, otherwise try f/8 or even f/11 (may be too slow shutter speed, try anyway) That should at least help keep them all in focus and the high ISO should help you stop the motion. As for exposure issues, you can try spot metering, or use center-weighted. Using too wide an area will throw you off.


Regarding the wood, it's interesting that they say it's for show only, something to that effect, not specifying aquarium use. I wonder if it's not aquarium safe?


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Post InfoPosted 10-Feb-2006 16:58Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
I guess I have to add an SLR camera to my list. My fastest ISO setting is 400 on my Canon S2 IS. I guess I can get good pics but I would have to put an incredible amount of light over the tank. Like 100wpg.

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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
please let me know if you want me to stop with the photography stuff


PLEASE DON'T STOP

If it wouldn't be for your "photography stuff" then I wouldn't make the pictures that I do. I think you are right on with your evaluation of how I take pictures. I know I have 1/1600 and probably the 2.8 as well. I will try to somehow change to the settings you suggest. As I said in some other content, I am by definition actually a lazy guy and as such haven't even managed yet to take the Tamron instructions out of the package .

Maybe I have some time this weekend to actually focus on getting a school in focus () .

Thanks,

Ingo

EDIT: tetratech - Can't find the smiley with the sunglasses anymore, otherwise I would have posted 5 in a row right here (only see one that indicates cool, but that is not the case with 100wpg )


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Post InfoPosted 10-Feb-2006 17:23Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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EditedEdited by NowherMan6
Thanks I'll bring up the photo stuff sparingly, how about that?


Maybe I have some time this weekend to actually focus on getting a school in focus




Well, you'll be stuck indoors for a few hours on Saturday through Sunday with the snow storm that's coming our way, so you'll have time to play around... as long as it doesn't take you another 12 hours


p.s. - tetra, you've done a great job taking photos with the camera you have, you need not move up unless you really want to


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Post InfoPosted 10-Feb-2006 20:31Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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tetra, you've done a great job taking photos with the camera you have, you need not move up unless you really want to

Thanks nowher, I just have trouble getting those really close clear ones.

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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
I just have trouble getting those really close clear ones


That's not the camera, that's a talent I have



Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 10-Feb-2006 20:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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That's not the camera, that's a talent I have

But of course

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Post InfoPosted 10-Feb-2006 20:54Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Hows that?

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LITTLE_FISH
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weird22person,

indicates cool, but 100wpg are more of the opposite

Maybe would be good to describe the feeling of 100wpg.


Anyway, I took 30 shots with all kinds of camera settings, to almost no avail. In this picture (the only one half way descent) you can get an idea about the fish load.

Ingo

Attached Image:

Top Level Dwellers



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Post InfoPosted 11-Feb-2006 01:22Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
luvmykrib
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Ingo, the rock covering the cut end doesn't look too bad at all, as the plants in and around it fill in it will start to look like it serves more of a scaping purpose than a camoflage purpose. The tank looks great! The espei autoban looks like a fun place to be!

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Post InfoPosted 11-Feb-2006 05:55Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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The espei autoban looks like a fun place to be!


Well, I have to say that it reminds me more of rush hour traffic going into Manhattan than the times when I raced over the German Autobahn with 140mph .

Yeah, from this angle the rock doesn't look all that bad, you are right luvmykrib.

Overall I have a feeling that my replanting concluded in too little of a plant mass as I experience enhanced growth of thread / staghorn algae, not too wild though but enough to make me think about it. I might go out and try to find some additional plants, chances are I will not get anything locally as all the common plants seem too boring.

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Post InfoPosted 11-Feb-2006 13:13Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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BTW the rock in the back left is already going away....

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Post InfoPosted 11-Feb-2006 15:49Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Wings,

I know

I might try to put a bigger one in during this afternoons water change. But thanks for reminding me .

I actually see a similar event happening to the stone on the far right so I might replace it as well, if I find a more suitable one in my collection .

Thanks,

Ingo


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I think one of the biggest things you need to look out for is keeping your hardwear visible from some sort of angle. If you don't then whats the point of even having it there.

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Post InfoPosted 11-Feb-2006 16:29Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Wings,

That's so true. You may remember my last layout (up to a week ago) and there were about 10 rocks in the tank. Did you see any? Maybe one or two, the rest was consumed by the plants. And the only two real large ones were covered in Xmas Moss.

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Post InfoPosted 11-Feb-2006 16:37Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Very nice pic LF. Tank looks great and it hasn't even filled in yet.

Went to one of my LFS to buy some more cardinals to start my own autobahn, but they only had tiny ones. I was going to take a chance with the UV and all, but when I looked closer at the tank I noticed ICH. Even with th UV don't want to go there.

I did come away with Two Cherry Shrimps and one plant. I believe it is a Rotala wallichii.




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Cool tetratech,

Can't wait to see pictures of the Cherry Shrimp, if they ever show themselves, that is .

And good move on NOT getting the cardinals, why risk it

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Post InfoPosted 11-Feb-2006 16:57Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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A few details of todays water change. Full shots will follow tomorrow in the weekly update.

Some of the following 6 pictures will have questions, so I would appreciate if you could read the text as well

No1: Water Change - the best time to get a group of Espei in focus

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Espei Gang



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Post InfoPosted 12-Feb-2006 00:02Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Two of my 3 and a half Crypt Lucens. I have them since over two months and they used to be located right in front of the Apons (invisible from the front of the tank).

They haven't done much in the meantime, maybe gained one or two leaves. Is that normal? Now they are to the right of the big wood group more towards the foreground.

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Crypt Lucens



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Post InfoPosted 12-Feb-2006 00:05Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I went to the LFS today to check on some plants and to see if they would like my Espei. Unfortunately it was very crowded (every Saturday that is the case) and on top of it I saw a tank with juvenile Espeis. I have to say that these don't compare to mine at all. Mine are much fuller and more colored up, which shouldn't be too much of a surprise given that these in the LFS have been shipped from Asia and must be very stressed on top of it. In short, I didn't ask if they want mine as I guess they have enough at the moment.

Anyway, I got this plant. They only had one of them, Crypt Lutea. It came in a small pot with the wool and after removing the latter I planted it as one unit close to a rock. It is just a little shaded (not much) by an Anubias Barteri. Should I have attempted to separate it? Bad spot?

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Crypt Lutea



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Post InfoPosted 12-Feb-2006 00:12Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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The other plant I bought was a small piece of Narrow Leaf Java Fern ( $ 6 ). I just squeezed it in a gap between the rock and the driftwood. Bad idea?

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Narrow Leaf Java Fern



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Here is another shot of it from a little further away (to see it more in perspective to the scape)

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Narrow Leaf Java Fern II



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Last but not least, another Pearl shot. This time their pattern blends right into the air bubbles that rise in the tank shortly after the water change.

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Pearls



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Nice pics LF. I guess most of the young espei survived "Extreme Makeover"

I like the Crypt Lutea. Looks like a good spot.
It's amazing how slim the plant pickings are at the stores.
It's funny to see some highlight plants in the stores that are under lowlight knowing that if they aren't sold within a few weeks there pretty much dead.

I was alittle surprised one of my LFSs had a 125g in the back with only plants in it. In neat rows with two coralife fixtures on top. This was the store I got the riccia from a few weeks ago. When I went back it was all gone and I noticed alot of it in a mess floating with some duckweed and lots of algae all over it.

I'll be posting some pics later tonite after my water change and planting of the Rotala wallichii, but I think I have to renew my premium membership. (As long as my wife lets me)

I'm gonna say a prayer and drink a few brews hoping our tanks don't lose power tonite.

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I am with you tetratech,

How much are we supposed to get? 6 to 12 inches, right?

Snow, in case the others don't know what we are talking about.

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Same deal in Massachusetts. 8-16 inches is conservative they said. I just hope for your fishes sake it isn't icy down in Jersey. Good luck!

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Ok first things first...
The first crypt question. Crypts are substrait eaters and they might need some type of tab fert and maybe more light?

Secondly....
Do you guys get lake effect snow? Where I go to school here in more centeral Mi we get some but its nothing like what I get back home right by the lake. Must of my fellow students don't understand..

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Sunday Morning, 7 AM:

So far we had maybe 10 inches, but it keeps on coming down . It is supposed to be over by mid afternoon, I think.

Anyway - Wings: Crypts are (for the most) low to medium light plants and don't require high light. My substrate has a layer of Laterite and also should have accumulated enough mulm to keep the Crypts happy.

On other notes: I added the Rainbows from the QT to the main tank last night. Here they are all bagged up:

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Rainbows coming in



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Soon after release the fish were still a little shy, here is an Espei checking on the new tankmate (male):

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Check out the new Dude



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The same happened to the girls. Somehow quite a few Espei huddled behind this one for a while. Maybe she got so stressed that she dropped eggs?

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The female being investigated



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But soon after, the Rainbows became more dominant and stated to chase older Espei away and seriously went after young Espeis as a food source. No kidding when one of you (I think it was Wings) said that they are fry control.

Well, here is a picture of the Male Pearl who made sure that even the Rainbows know who is the real boss in the tank. He frequently swam up to them, not in a threatening fashion, but making sure they get out of his way when he comes even closer:

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The Boss



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Here are two males starting to explore. See the one with the missing dorsal fin piece? I wonder how he lost that part - I am sure he would be able to tell quite a story. I mentioned much earlier that he had the missing part since I got him, it seems to be too severe to grow back. My handicapped male

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2 Dwarf Neon Rainbows



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And here is a close-up of a female Rainbow:

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Female Dwarf Neon Rainbow



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And lastly - A male

I think he is the leader

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Male Dwarf Neon Rainbow



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tetratech
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Well don't know how much snow we got, but let's put it this way I had to dig a path 6am this morning so my dog could do his business.

Anyway nice pics LF. Glad the rainbows finally made it to the show.

BTW - Do you put your lights on earlier on the weekend? Just curious since your pics are from this morning.


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tetratech,

The pics are from last night just before lights off. It just took me until this morning to filter out 7 pictures from the 80 that I made (and trim and resize them).

Ingo


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The Yard Fish are having fun in the snow, and breakfast is served

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Yard Fish



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EditedEdited by Wingsdlc
Isn't it crazy how many pictures we have to take to get a few good ones?

Rainbows are looking nice! I am not sure if I said that they would be fry control but I am sure that they will help matters. Right now I have quite a few guppy fry in with my Rainbows but I also feed my fish pretty well.. Do your pearls do anything to them? Are they schooling nice? Mine hang pretty tight. Makes me a happy guy.

Edit:

I know that crypts don't need super light and you do have a good sub down but maybe a lot of the good stuff has been taken up already.

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Just popping in. Great pics LF. I LOVE the snow pic, gorgeous. Keep 'em coming

As for the crypts, they grow slow no matter what. From what i've read parva is by far the slowest, wendtii is like hygro in comparison.. the others are also slow and fickle. It may just be that it hasn't gotten settled since the replant. Maybe it'll take a few weeks? (by which time you'll be ready to uproot the whole damn thing over again )

Off to pay attention to the snow and my visiting gf now...


Back in the saddle!
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Weekly Tank Update - Week 20

This week hasn't seen much change from last weekend. Fertilizers have been added as usual, which may or may not have been a good idea. During this weekends water change I notices quite an increase in thread (short) and even Staghorn Algae, the first one in particular on the back glass (and a few plants) and both on the Cyperus Helferi.

I added two plants to the tank, as suggested (but still small) a small Narrow Leaf Java Fern and a Crypt. Also, on special request by Wings, I replaced the rock on the left with a bigger one .

The Dwarf Neon Rainbows have been added to the tank last night and when checking on them this morning they were not schooling. Instead, each male was chasing after a female, and at least one of them seemed receptive to the male (the one I believe is the leader). I don't think I will have more babies though at this time as the tank is not jungle like enough to provide sufficient hiding space for tiny fry.

The weekly updates are only 5 pictures, as I showed a lot of details already on the previous page and top of this one. Now I only provide a short trip through the tanks evolution.

This was just after the initial planting:

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Week 0



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This is week 5, the tank has already been through its weed phase (used to speed up establishment) and is beginning to be scaped:

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Week 5



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By week 10, the scaping had become the main focus of the tank, many plants were moved and removed and new ones were planted:

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Week 10



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Week 15 was the beginning of the jungle days, plant growth was so immense that it became clear that things will have to change:

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Week 15



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Week 19 was that change during which the biggest replant since the tank's existence was performed:

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Week 19



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Now, the tank as of today, one week after the last picture. Not too much change, but plants begin to re-establish themselves and some growth can be seen as well:

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Week 20 - Today



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LF,

Better rock. It will withstand the jungle to come a little better but I think tall will be better down the road...

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The tank looks great Ingo!
I think the narrow leaf java fern will do a good job where you tucked it. The rock will start to disappear a bit. Anubias seem to prefer to be shaded, at least mine do, I had to move some as it was getting covered in algae where it was. I also like different anubias grouped together for effect, they tend to complement each other. As for the crypts, some of them probably take longer than others to really become established. It took mine almost a year and they are all common types. If you don't move them around anymore they should start to grow more.

The snow! I'm SOOO jealous! That's where it all went! We have not had any real snow fall this year, it's going to be a rough spring and summer if we don't get any! My poor roses and fruit trees may suffer winter kill, not from it being too cold but from not having any snow cover. And my poor boys haven't gotten any good tobogganning in this year either. Enjoy all that snow!

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EditedEdited by tetratech
Actually I think some crawling wisteria would look great around the base of that rock and wood. I actually found some wisteria rooted into my driftwood the other day.

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NowherMan6
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Actually I think some crawling wisteria would look great around the base of that rock and wood.


LF didn't spend all that money on DW just to surround it with weeds.

But seriously tetra, did you do some sort of wisteria dance to make all the wisteria in everyone's tank grow like crazy? Because mine is not only the second tallest plant in my tank, it's also crawling like mad, taking over my HM....


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EditedEdited by tetratech
But seriously tetra, did you do some sort of wisteria dance to make all the wisteria in everyone's tank grow like crazy

Glad to hear it. Yes in fact, anyone who comes in contact with the Wisteria Wizard should have great success (As long as they stay on my good side.) If not, I will make your wisteria do some ungodly things.

Actually I find it very handy to have around. When I planted the Rotala Wall. I had to remove some and I couldn't beleive how many layers I had. When I setup my 12g as you could see I shoved as much as I could into the back of the tank when I started getting BGA. I really think it helped clean up the water. I also notice because of the leaf size it leaves enough space for corys to rummage thru.

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Thanks all for the input

ONE year for the Crypts to establish themselves? I seriously doubt that mine will ever get established then .

Wisteria in front of the driftwood? That would be right on the glass. Are you sure tetratech?

Ingo


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Wisteria in front of the driftwood? That would be right on the glass. Are you sure tetratech?

It would have to be plantede between the rock and dw and on the left back corner of the rock. As it grows in some of the leaves would wrap around to the front without it being to full.



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ONE year for the Crypts to establish themselves? I seriously doubt that mine will ever get established then


It took almost a year for mine because
A) Low-light conditions under 1 wpg
B) Constant rearranging by moi
C) Possibly underfed (Fertilize? why?)
D) All of the above

Yours are starting to grow one week after re-planting, I doubt it will take a year, they probably just needed some breathing space (don't we all?)

Tetra thinks we all need wisteria in our tanks, is the stuff the cure-all for everything? Maybe we can cure the common cold with Tetratech's Amazing Trained Wisteria TM!
I have to admit I still want some though, the water sprite is driving me mad! Oops too late! Already there!

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What lights do you have on that tank?

We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl year after year
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
hckycoz - I have 386W (2 x 96W 5,000K plus 2 x 96W 6,700K) power compact fluorescent lighting plus 6 moon lights (LEDs) from Coralife. This, and a few more details, can be seen in my profile. Welcome to FP EDIT: and nice signature, Pink Floyd

luvmykrib - Yeah, looks wise Wisteria seems to be prettier than Water Sprite, but that plant has its purpose as well, even if it might be only used as a helper in establishing a new planted tank (like in my case).

tetratech - I guess I will have to think about it. It sounds interesting and maybe one the large rock that holds down the drfitwood goes out then there might be an even better spot for it.

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You will need to figure out what to put in place of that rock eventually. How long until it becomes waterlogged anyway? I finally gave up on the piece I was floating in my water bucket, it didn't seem to want to sink...ever! I get the Geosystems driftwood or the bulk stuff from the Big Al's store in the city, then it is sure to sink.


I just wanted to show off my gold star!

I finally did it, after the practice one which I aced I couldn't seem to get them all right again!

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I get the Geosystems driftwood or the bulk stuff from the Big Al's store in the city

Luv, what is geosystems dw and you must be from the Florida area. Have you been to that new Big Als 18,000 ft store?

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luvmykrib
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Florida is a long way from where I'm at. I am an Alberta CANADA girl. The frozen North is my home, we send our Alberta clipper down that way to remind you guys what cold feels like, well at least we used to! We are finally getting that cold snap I was expecting way back in November.

The Big Al's in the city is in Edmonton, the Capital of Alberta, it is 20 mins from where I'm at.

Geosystems is a new line from Hagen, it is a natural biotope system. The kits are cheaper than the waterhome line in some cases. Wish I had seen that when we got the tank! The DW comes in differing sizes and is usually plastic wrapped or in a box. I like it because it will sink without needing to be soaked, just rinsed and in it goes. They have a line of natural gravel, stones and also a guide for planning your tank. Choose what biotope your fish will be from and then it gives you a selection of gravel, which plants to choose, what water parameters to aim for, pretty much what you need. I find it to be fairly flexible as well, but I am not a cookie cutter kind of person, I always colour outside the lines and the sky isn't always blue either.


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Luv,
Excuse me had a senior moment. I did notice the Canadian indicator. Reason I said florida because I know Big Als has started to open retail stores in that state and wanted to see if anyone's been there.


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You are forgiven, I wish I had been there, or anywhere for that matter. It would be a lot warmer than here.

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luvmykrib,

Congrats on the first gold star, now hold it tight so you don't lose it again

And I am sure tetratech is hiding quite a few goldstars in his avatar and one day soon he will show us all 10 .

About the wood you buy at Big Al's. My LFS has driftwood packed in plastic as well and it works great in my smaller tanks. Only problem is that it leaks tannins for quite a while, but that is only a visual issue.

About my tank: it seems like thread algae is getting settled in. Every day I see a little more. I am dosing the same ferts than before the change. My guess would be that the plant mass is just too little now and plants are still working on estabilshing themselves.

And another thing, in case it helps identifying any imbalance: about half of my Rotala Macandra stems have the top section melting instead of forming new leaves. Just the tip of the plant.

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Check nitrates.

Macrandra is picky. Not enough No3 it will stunt , too much No3 it will stunt

Any other plants showing similar ? Smaller leaves , curled crinkled leaves ?


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Macrandra is picky. Not enough No3 it will stunt , too much No3 it will stunt

Then what to do about the poor starving Stargrass?

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No, no other plant seems to show similar issues, I would assume to see first signs on the Pearl Grass with its tiny leaves - but not (yet).

I have no issues with the Star Grass, except that some leaf tips turn black (no algae).

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I have no issues with the Star Grass, except that some leaf tips turn black (no algae).

Actually what I meant was if you start to lighten up on No3 for the Macrandra

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Hm, so you assume I am overdosing at the moment? Might very well be.

Daily:

1/2 tsp of Potassium Nitrate
1/8 of Potassium Sulfate or 1/8 of Potassium Phosphate (one one day day, the other on the next)
17ml of TMG

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 15-Feb-2006 19:31Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Not saying your defintiely ODing just if you decide to cut current levels to see affect on the rotala.

Seems like alot of no3 especially since you cut out so much mass. Amano builds up levels to match mass, but we all agree no3 doesnt' cause algae.

My current dosing.

3 times/week

.5 tsp no3
.05 tsp po4
15ml flourish

I haven't dosed so4 separately in months.





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tetratech,

I don't care about the sulfate either it is the K that I am after. I don't want to add too much P so I alernate between Potassium Sulfate and Potassium Phosphate. Remember, I got that high tab P.

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Post InfoPosted 15-Feb-2006 20:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Dr. Bonke
 
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let me get this straight you fertilize every day (ingo) or every other day (Tetra)? Considering that my plantload seems heavier than Tetra's I should then move mine to somewhere in the middle I guess? currently I'm dosing twice per week
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Yeah Dr.,

EI suggests to dose at least every other day, whereby you dose macros on one day and micros on the other, both 3 times a week. This leaves you with the day before the water change off (except feeding the fishies, of course).

I broke my dosage in half and dose every day to maximize the stability of the nutrient level.

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Post InfoPosted 15-Feb-2006 22:02Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Considering that my plantload seems heavier than Tetra's I should then move mine to somewhere in the middle I guess?


That's the beauty of EI - there isn't one exact dose you need, you're just shooting to get nutrient levels within and broad range, and keep them stable in that range. Three times a week for N and K isn't far out, that's what i do for my 46 gallon. I do 1/4 tsp KNO3 and 1/8 or slightly less K, then Flourish on off days, total 15ml per week or thereabout. In tetras case he has a lot of fast growers in there, tons of wisteria which can suck up nutrients. I think he also likes to keep N high for the stargrass. I try not to dose too much N because I have a relatively high fishload and i think my rotala likes it a little on the lean side. It depends on your plant load but also kinds of plants.

If the schedule Bensaf gave you is working then the results speak for themselves. You can adjust a little bit here and there to see if there are any changes, but the "good" range for are quite broad so you need not worry about hitting a specific target level. Just keep up the weekly WCs


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tetratech
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Considering that my plantload seems heavier than Tetra's

That's an interesting question I first glance yes, Dr. Bonke's tank has much more vertical mass, but I have a thick cushion of wisteria covering about 80% of my substrate and it is several layers deep. If I stood my tank on it's side. I would have 4 feet of the stuff.



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bensaf
 
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Then what to do about the poor starving Stargrass?


This is where plants Macrandra become a pain.

It may be with the same dose of No3 and less plants that it is not been consumed at the same rate so has built up slightly and the Rotala doesn't like it.

Should you reduce No3 to perk up the Rotala ? Well, I wouldn't bother. Keeping No3 levels low to satisfy one plant is a crap shoot. You risk messing up the others. Not worth it IMO. Keep things going and if the Macrandra doesn't like it - tough.

If other plants show syptoms look more closely.

If it is No3, the plant mass will gradually increase to previous levels and consume more, bringing things back into a range the Rotala likes and it will recover quickly, it's a real fast grower.

Leave things be. Only change if you think things are too low. Usually the best change and the best results is to add not decrease.


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Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 16-Feb-2006 04:19Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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EditedEdited by bensaf
Don't take me wrong. I'm not suggesting high No3 is the Rotalas problem. It's one of a number of possibilities. The fact that you are seeing algae would indicate the opposite.

Re-check everything , especially Co2. When problems occur I almost always increase not reduce. More Co2, more N and P, more micros. It is almost always too little of something, hardly ever too much.

It's just that macrandra is funny, too little it's not happy, too much it's not happy. They are the nagging wives of the aquatic plant world.


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Bensaf,

Thanks for the advice, I was not intending to reduce the amouns of ferts.

The one thing I did 2 days ago was to move a small powerhead that was on the left to the right. That area used to be a little under-circulated and maybe the increased water flow will help evening out the ferts some more. This is not for the Macandra but an attempt to reduce the thread/staghorn algae.

BTW, the new Crypt Lutea seems to settle nicely. Leaves are responding to the light influence and have repositioned themselves to catch more of it. I might (at some point) take it out from its slightly shaded spot and place it in open light.

Thanks again,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 16-Feb-2006 11:34Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Well,

I haven't had much to say in my log in 2 days, but the ever increasing algae is worth a mention.

Here are 6 pictures of the tank as of today, water change will have to wait as my back does not permit me to drag heavy items (like 5G of water). Pulled a muscle from shoveling snow, getting old I guess.

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Post InfoPosted 18-Feb-2006 21:34Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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First a nice one. The center group with wood and Star Grass is looking nice, I think:

Attached Image:

Center Group



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Post InfoPosted 18-Feb-2006 21:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Here is a closeup of malfunctioning/disformed tops of the Rotala Macandra:

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Rotala Macandra



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Post InfoPosted 18-Feb-2006 21:37Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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How about some Staghorn on the Cyperus Helferi:

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Cyperus Helferi



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Post InfoPosted 18-Feb-2006 21:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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And the same algae on the gravel:

Attached Image:

Staghorn



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Post InfoPosted 18-Feb-2006 21:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Now some thread algae on the Red Rubin Sword:

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Red Rubin Sword



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Post InfoPosted 18-Feb-2006 21:39Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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And last but not least, even the new driftwood is getting a layer of Thread algae

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Driftwood



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Post InfoPosted 18-Feb-2006 21:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
ChaosMaximus
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LF,

Hey, even your algae looks nice . They are good pictures. I was just wondering if thats duckweed floating on the top of the tank or if its something else. It looks cool.

Chaos


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Post InfoPosted 18-Feb-2006 22:32Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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The center group with wood and Star Grass is looking nice, I think

Holy Maintenance! It does look nice, but are you crazy putting that stargrass around all that wood.

I think you know my humble opinion on your algae. Forget how much no3, po4 and micros your dosing, this has more to do with light and waste. With your light you have less wiggle room and more room for the algae to creep back in, especially after a major change like you did.


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Chaos - Yeah, that is duckweed, but I would advise against it on a small tank as it can spread really fast and shade the whole tank. My tank is pretty much covered in 3 to 4 weeks, although I always only leave a few in.

Tetratech - I need more plants, darn

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 18-Feb-2006 23:55Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Wad the algae up into a ball and make some tribbles!


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Post InfoPosted 19-Feb-2006 05:19Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Dr. Bonke
 
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Ingo,
Looking at the last few algae photos I'm getting a slight deja vu. The stuff on the wood and plants look exactly the way it did on mine before it got completely covered. And yesterday I too found a few threads of staghorn in my tank I'm going to follow you very closely now to see how you will get rid of that Otherwise, great looking!
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bodangit - hm, thanks, I guess

Dr. - I had worse algae before, at the time my tank was not established yet. It makes perfect sense that similar events happen now, given that

a) I thinned out the plant mass by at least 50%
b) I uprooted all but one species (although interestingly it is the one with the most threads and staghorn)

Actually, the Cyperus had already some algae while the tank was redone. It definately came from the Xmas moss that was on the rocks and jumped over to leaves of the Cyperus as they bend onto the moss. As a slow grower, it makes sense that the algae feels pretty happy there.

Although I haven't made my mind up completely yet, I am pretty sure that I will start one week of Excel treatment today (after the water change).

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Post InfoPosted 19-Feb-2006 11:19Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by dan76
hi ingo


long time reader first time poster

sorry, bad joke.

anyway , how are your rainbows doing?


cheers dan

OH TOLEEDY!
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Yeah Dan,

All the entries I make in your threads, you owe me quite a few

The rainbows are doing just fine. The peruse the tank, sometimes alone and sometimes as a group, but no tight schooling. I also see some males having interest in the ladies, but I would be surprised if any fry would turn up any time soon.

And keep on posting, will ya

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 19-Feb-2006 12:14Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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The Rotala is stunting.

That and the algae my first impression would be low Nitrates.

I'm not a fan of the daily dosing routine you are doing. Trying to micro manage and limit the doses is troublesome. Some plants can grab N quicker and easier then others. By try to add just enough per day is running the risk of one or more species getting left out of the food hunt.

Dosing about 10ppm 3 times (more then even the nest tank can consume in a day) a week will ensure everything gets it's share.
I also see what looks like some white dots on the rotala leaves. White dots on this plant would indicate FE shortage.

Again, I'd be looking at nutrients and adding more. Start with Co2 and N.


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Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 19-Feb-2006 16:03Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Weekly Tank Update - Week 21

Well, as has been discusses, I am having a small Algae problem.

I couldn't do to much with the tank during the week and during todays water change as my back went out on Wednesday from too much snow shoveling.

What I did was that I added about ten smaller stems of the Bacopa from my 29G, just to increase the plant mass a little.

Also, based on Bensaf's advice, I decided to go back to bi-daily fertilizer routines. I also start another round of Excel treatment.

Today, I added 1tsp Potassium Nitrate and 1/4 tsp of Potassium Phosphate. Also 50ml of Excel. I will add 20ml of TMG later, just to get the micros a head start.

Tomorrow I will add another 30 ml of TMG, the following day the macros again, and the following day 30ml of TMG. From there on it will be the same amount on alternate days. Plus 20ml of Excel on all days (for a week).

I also replaced the sponge in the reactor with a new one, just in case, and beefed up the CO2 to "just below constant stream".

Pictures of this weekly update will be the last 3 weeks since this setup came into being. There is for sure some growth to be seen, in particular the Star Grass likes it in there ( right tetratech? ).

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 20-Feb-2006 01:22Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Week 19, just after replanting:

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Week 19



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Post InfoPosted 20-Feb-2006 01:23Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Week 20

Attached Image:

Week 20



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And today, week 21:

Attached Image:

Week 21



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Post InfoPosted 20-Feb-2006 01:24Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Star grass is going nuts.

I would work that has the high point and slide everything down to the corners

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tetratech
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I know your having some algae problems, but the tank is looking good and will look amazing once it fills in even more.

Today, I added 1tsp Potassium Nitrate and 1/4 tsp of Potassium Phosphate

Curious why are you adding n and p in a 4 to 1 ratio? I must be missing something.


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bensaf
 
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Curious why are you adding n and p in a 4 to 1 ratio? I must be missing something.


1 tspn of KH2PO4 doesn't give the same ppm of phosphate as 1 tspn of KNO3 gives ppm of NO3.

So even if does 4:1 powder doesn't equate to 4:1 ppm.


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
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tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
So even if does 4:1 powder doesn't equate to 4:1 ppm.

Glad it's an Estimate Index.
When I check the fertiliator (assuming it's correct) I would have 5.9ppm to 1.8ppm of N to P, a 3.3:1 ratio if I dosed the same way. I forget it's late. What is your source of N and what is your nephew's?



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Post InfoPosted 20-Feb-2006 06:45Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Should have checked my calculator before I said anything shouldn't I ?

Strangley Chuck's calculator differs it gives a result of 7.26ppm of NO3 and 1.77 PO4. Pretty close to a 4:1 ratio

Hmmm.... I wouldn't worry about the P, but that number for N is a bit low , and if the Fertilator is correct I'd consider that a very low dose

I'd definately be looking at upping my NO3 dosing. This nothing to do with ratios , it's just not enough NO3 going in IMO.


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Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
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tetratech and bensaf,

Glad you bring up the calculation again, as I haven't used any calculator in a while.

I would assume that at best I have 115G of water, if not down to 100G. With the 115G I get around 8ppm of N from 1tsp of KNO3. True, this may be a little too low, but what about all the N-forms that are produced by over 100 fish?

P would be at 115G around 2ppm at 1/4tsp, that may be too high, so maybe I should go down to 1/8tsp. Inparticular because my tab has P as well (supposedly, when measured a way while back, 2ppm).

Any thoughts?

Wings - thanks for the suggestion, I will see more when the plants have settled yet again

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 20-Feb-2006 12:53Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Wow that is something I haven't thought of. Less water to treat because of all the junk in the tank.

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Wings,

Yeah, I think when you have such a big tank that has an overall volume of 125G then you see some major differences in net volume. What I don't know is if these deductions (like over 200lbs of gravel, various rocks, and the wood) have been considered when the calculator formulas have been put in place.

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Post InfoPosted 20-Feb-2006 15:34Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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You have to start displacing a fair amount of water with all the gravel, wood and rocks. Then as your plant mass grows that has to have some effect too. Maybe not as much as the rocks and such. Food for thought though.

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Post InfoPosted 20-Feb-2006 15:48Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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but what about all the N-forms that are produced by over 100 fish?


Forget about it. You can't measure it so don't think about it.

The fish waste will be in the form of NH4. Plants will consume this before they consume NO3, it's easier to access the nitrogen in NH4. So if the NO3 is being consumed it means the NH4 is also being consumed.Beforehand.

NO3 won't cause algae. The tiniest smidgen of NH4 will.This is why the idea of adding more fish to increase NO3 rather then dosing doesn't work. The fish first produce NH4, dangerous, KNO3 is inorganic and safe.

Now , knowing you guys the way I do I am sure you will try to make a case that your current problems are due to fish load. Knock yourselves out.

I believe your problem is low NO3. Add more and see the results.A bit more inorganic NO3 won't hurt anything. Tetra will testify as to what happened when he increased doses. I believe it was all good. /:'


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
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bensaf
 
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What I don't know is if these deductions (like over 200lbs of gravel, various rocks, and the wood) have been considered when the calculator formulas have been put in place.



Didn't need to. You do that yourself. You can enter any volume of water you like. It's up to you to calculate how much water in your tank. Just because you have a 40gal tank doesn't mean you have to key in 40gals. You can key 30,35,55 etc.

But again, you don't have to be that precise. ESTIMATIVE Index.


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
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I know... its all a big guess!

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Glad it's an Estimate Index.


But again, you don't have to be that precise. ESTIMATIVE Index


EXACTLY, well not really. That is the key ESTIMATE. Don't worry about hardscape and exact gallon content.
To excess

The tiniest smidgen of NH4 will.This is why the idea of adding more fish to increase NO3 rather then dosing doesn't work. The fish first produce NH4, dangerous, KNO3 is inorganic and safe.

But there is a direct relationship between fish load and algae, with light and mass being the controling factors.



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LITTLE_FISH
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Ok Ok Bensaf,

I will switch to 1.25tsp of KNO3 and 1/8tsp of Potassium Phosphate, every other day . Happy now

Anyway, I will bring up tetratechs point (and mine) some more.

Fish load and NO3 fertilization: We all agree that plants prefer ammonia etc. over KNO3. Ammonia is only present in a tank with fish (or if someone adds fish food or ammonia for some reason). I assume (proof me otherwise) that ammonia is the same nutrient that the plant need than the one it gets from NO3. If you have no fish then all of this nutrient has to come from NO3. If fish are present then ammonia will be taken up first and only then the NO3 will be consumed. If you have a lot of fish then you may reach a point where only very little of the NO3 will be taken up because soooo much ammonia is available. Ergo, my assumption that I need less KNO3 than calculators tell you.

Am I wrong?

Ingo


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Got bored so I took some more pictures:

Here are two Crypt Wendtii surrounded by Pearl Grass. They just don't seem to grow that well in my tank(s):

Attached Image:

Crypt Wendtii



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The Alternanthera starts to show itself, now that it finally gets some light:

Attached Image:

Alternanthera



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The Boss of the Neons:

Attached Image:

Male Dwarf Neon Rainbow



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And one of my "Millions Fish"

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Espei



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LF,
I think there is always some waste/nh4 in the tank even without any fish. Decaying plant leaves, stems, uneating food will eventually get broken down into waste. And certainly the more plants the more likely the plants will get at the nh4 before the algae has a chance, but with less mass and good light the algae have a fertile environment to take hold.

Crypt Wendti:
Why do you think this plant doesn't grow well?
Nice pics, I really do like the rainbows. I am tempted to put a few in my tank. Do you know if they would eat my shrimp?

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bensaf
 
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Ergo, my assumption that I need less KNO3 than calculators tell you.


We are actually stepping back about 53 pages now.

All true about the NH4. But as I said you can't quantify it. So how much do you reduce NO3 doses to account for it

All this time and almost 2000 posts later you're still frightened of the nutrients.

Why even bother to reduce the No3 dosing to allow for fish waste? No3 is an inorganic source of N it won't cause algae. So instead of trying to do calculations and allowances for an unknown just add the No3. A little excess won't hurt, a shortage will kick your butt

At this stage of the tanks life you have a lot of plants and a large bacteria colony, NH4 will disappear almost as fast as it's produced.

Keep up with the NO3 dosing, give it 2 -3 weeks and tell us what you see.

For the crypt I always find they do better in planted in groups of 3 or so. They look a bit sad on their own. In groups they seem to go into competition mode and try to outgrow one another.


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Post InfoPosted 21-Feb-2006 03:45Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by Wingsdlc
I have 9 rainbows in my 40G and they don't touch my glass shrimp. You have some other much cooler types that I don't have a clue about though.

Edit:

Crypts. I have two in my tank and they are growing really well. I just moved one though because I got a new anubias so I don't know what its going to do. Being the plant guy at work I have had to crpts flower. Don't know what I am doing right but its cool stuff.

Oh you guys will love this... My boss today told a customer that the plants I have been feeding at work don't need any extra nutrients other than what fish are giving them...because its a big tank.... Some days....

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[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 21-Feb-2006 03:48Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
upikabu
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For the crypt I always find they do better in planted in groups of 3 or so. They look a bit sad on their own. In groups they seem to go into competition mode and try to outgrow one another.


ITA with this. All my "bushy" crypts started out as a tight bunch of at least 5 individual plants. In the tank where I space out the individual (or 2-3) plants, they don't get as bushy, but spreads out runners to other parts of the tank.

BTW LF, are my eyes bad or is there a little bit of green/hair algae on the leaves of your crypts?

-P
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tetratech -

"Crypt Wendti: Why do you think this plant doesn't grow well?" I have them in the tank since the beginning. When I added them they had about the same number of leaves. Yeah, new ones came, but old ones always melted away. In none of my tanks do Crypt Wendtii have more than 5 leaves each.
And I think that the Rainbows will leave the shrimp alone.

Bensaf -

Deal, I will keep up this dosing and see what happens. To be continued ...
On my next re-arrangement I will try to group the Wendtiis.

Wings -

Thanks for the info. Are your crypts grouped?

Paulus -

Thanks to you for the cypt info as well, gives me already two people with similar experiences.
And yeah, this is thread algae . That is what the recent discussion on NO3 is all about. Your eyes are just fine .

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 21-Feb-2006 12:21Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Paulus,
wow good eye! I had to go back and look for it.

LF,

Mine were not grouped. They were probably 5 inches apart. Now they are even farther apart. The once at work are not growing like mine but they are pushing flowers. I would try adding in some root tabs. They might want more nutrients. Remember our cool substraits will not last for ever.

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NowherMan6
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We are actually stepping back about 53 pages now


Just wanted to second that emotion. Maybe it's the natural cycle of the log. Another 50 pages from now we'll wondering whether KNO3 has been causing that hair algae again


Back in the saddle!
Post InfoPosted 21-Feb-2006 14:42Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
upikabu
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Ingo - Out of curiosity, have you tested the nitrate level in your tank recently? I'm just wondering approximately how much nitrate you have with all those fish in there.

-P
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Thanks Wings for the update on your Crypts

Paulus - No, I haven't tested anything in at least a month, if not longer.

I used to test quite a bit in the past when I used 1.25tsp of KNO3 every other day (for a while already, not when I started) and my kit (faulty or not) read way over 20ppm, even with less fish. It took over a week of no ferts and 50% water change to get the value around or below 20ppm. Even if the kit was not accurate (tetratech strongly belives - and tested for it - that the kits show way too high of a value), I could see the tendencies and how much is consumed over time. This was the reason I switched over to daily fertilization and reduced dosage (0.5tsp per day).

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 21-Feb-2006 16:22Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
upikabu
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EditedEdited by upikabu
Fair enough. You know what I think you need? Some SAE's. They should take care of your occasional hair algae problem, provided you get a group (at least 3 for your size tank) of very young/small juveniles. I know it doesn't solve the root of the problem, but sometimes you can go nuts (or round in circles, in your case ) trying to figure out every minute detail when we know there are a lot of variables (fish stock, amount of waste, plant mass, etc.) at any given time that could contribute to the problem. Just keep dosing the macros.

I know SAE's can get fat and lazy when they get big (esp. when they're alone), but since you have a lot of voracious fish in that tank (espei, rainbows) the SAE's should be outcompeted for food and grow slowly.

Just my 2c.
Cheers,
-Paulus

-P
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My SAE hasn't got fat and lazy yet, he's a very active member in the tank, although he doesn't eat as much algae as he used to, he can be seen nibbling when he's hungry. I tend to underfeed, then sometimes I offer algae flakes before offering the regular flakes. This tends to get him thinking right again, and it seems to be good for the other fish as well.

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Post InfoPosted 22-Feb-2006 00:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
It was mentioned a little above this entry that my algae and nutrient issues have been discussed 53 pages back. Well, SAE have been discussed maybe 15 pages back and overall there seem to have been more disadvantages than advantages. I initially thought I would like to have them, but couldn't find any in the LFSs, then I decided not to get them and a week later the LFS had a whole tank full.

So for the time being, no SAE for my tank, but thanks anyway for thinking about it as an option .

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 22-Feb-2006 01:08Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Gang,

I added a plant ID thread in this forum, if you haven't done so already, could you be so kind and try to help me with the ID by Clicking Here.

Thanks in advance,

Ingo


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Well,

It is 3 days since my last entry and not much has happened that would be worth mentioning, except:

I have been following the new fert routine to the dot, meaning every other day 1.25tsp of KNO3 and 1/8tsp Potassium Phosphate, and the days between 40ml of TMG. In addition, after the water change I added 50ml of Excel and then every following day 20ml. I was curious if this would help the thread/staghorn algae that seemed to be starting to become an issue.

Did it help? No - this kind of algae is still there, spreading even further. Unfortunately, I am now also getting BBA on a few plants, like the leaves of the Cyperus Helferi and Crypt Retrospiralis. Also, the Anubias Nana and Barteri have some odd black markings on them that I cannot identify. It looks like someone had blown dirt over the plants and some of it adhered to the leaves. I will try to take a picture of it a little later in the day.

Also, I will measure some parameters, I for one thing bet you that I will get very high readings of Nitrate and Phosphate. This are the times when my tank makes me angry as I seem to be incapable of figuring out the right levels of ferts. Or maybe it isn't the tank that makes me angry, maybe (most likely) it is myself.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 25-Feb-2006 11:28Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
upikabu
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Also, the Anubias Nana and Barteri have some odd black markings on them that I cannot identify. It looks like someone had blown dirt over the plants and some of it adhered to the leaves.


Ingo, do you remember me mentioning the "black algae" on the leaves of some of my plants in my thread (3rd post)? I'm pretty sure it's the same one you're seeing in your anubias. Still don't know what really caused it, but it hasn't come back since I removed the stems that had it.

-P
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Paulus,

It seems to be different as you say your leaves turned black beginning at the edges. My edges are fine, there are little specles all over the leaf surface.

I used to have the algae that started on the edges and that was for sure BBA. And it reacted very well to the Excel treatment.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 25-Feb-2006 13:53Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
upikabu
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Nope, the one I was referring to looked more like black dusting over the leaf surface, particularly in the middle area (not edges). It was most ounced on the hygro polysperma & stricta's leaves. I can't rub the black off with my fingers, they seem to be fused to the leaves.

-P
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Ok,

here is a picture that shows what I mean (Paulus, just like yours? ). It seems to be not confined to any particular part of the tank, and exists on probably 40% of all my Anubias leaves. Grrrrrr

Attached Image:

Spot Stuff



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Post InfoPosted 25-Feb-2006 17:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Gang,

I just did my water change, but not before measuring Nitrates and Phosphates. To my surprise, the Nitrates seem to be within the level, maybe a little over 20ppm (maybe even 30) but not what I expected. Phosphates, on the other hand, are where I expected them, 5ppm. Way too much, just like the last time when I dosed them rather frequently (then I caught it only when it was already 10ppm). I have faith in my phosphate test kit, believe it or not, as I performed extensive dosing tests to the tank to see how the kit will change colors. I have a tab of 2ppm, which should be the maximum given 20ppm of Nitrate. I will cut back on phosphate dosing, I started already by not adding any today, just the 1.25tsp of KNO3 (plus all the other stuff, baking soda, Equilibrium).

The Retrospiralis hasn't taken too kindly on the separation into smaller plants when I did the major overhaul a few weeks back. In good crypt fashion, half the leaves have been or are melting. Similar, the narrow leaf sags have some melting going on, they are also not too wild about the replanting.

An interesting fact: I finished 1 pound (US Pound) of KNO3 today. Just for the fun of it, this means:

- The tank is up and running for 154 days
- I added about 2.9432g per day (1 pound = 453.28g)
- This means I added about 0.54tsp per day
- And it means I added 3.81 ppm per day

I also removed the rock on the right and replaced it by planting this area with clippings of my Narrow Leaf Ludwigia from the 20G (needed trimming anyway). I figured if I don't like it I can take it out again, but more plant mass is probably good right now.

Pictures will follow tomorrow,

Any input is appreciated,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Feb-2006 00:46Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
upikabu
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Ingo, yup I've seen those spots before on my anubias' and radican sword's leaves. The ones on my hygros are more like black dusting, not as distict spots. Could be the same thing though, just shows up different on different leaves. Oh well, I guess we'll just have to wait until bensaf identifies it.

-P
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tetratech
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Ingo,
In regards to the anubias pic. Isn't that a form of beard/brush algae.

Interesting facts about no3 consumation. Did you buy the no3 from gregwatson. If your not placing a full order you could use the Greenlight Stump Remover available at Lowes. It's pure potassium nitrate.

Looking forward to seeing your pics, manana

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Post InfoPosted 26-Feb-2006 02:06Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Looks like brand new BBA.

Check and re-check Co2.

I've had similar stuff, it just stayed that way never got furry like older BBA. I trimmed it off.


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Thanks all for your input on the Anubias spots. I bet you it is Phosphate related. 5ppm is just too much. My CO2 is turned up higher than ever before, too fast to count bubbles and almost a constant flow of air (well, not air but CO2, you know what I mean).

Anyway, I went to the basement this morning to get some ferts for the 29G and saw on light beam fall into the tank through the small window behind it. I grabbed the camera and took some pictures, most of course were pretty bad, holding the camera steady is not that easy in almost no light. Anyway, I thought I share the best 3 pictures.

Here is the beam falling into the tank:

Attached Image:

Let there be light



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Post InfoPosted 26-Feb-2006 16:33Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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And here is another one. A real close-up of the light hitting just the top of a Pearl Grass.

The colors are broken down by the tank glass I guess, but I liked it.

Attached Image:

Pearl in the light



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And lastly, the top of the Star Grass got an extra load of light.

Yeah, I know it is time to trim it as it begins to float along the surface, so maybe next weekend I am going to do that.

Attached Image:

Stars in the light



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Post InfoPosted 26-Feb-2006 16:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Interesting pics, but is the reason your showing this because their nice to look at or are you feeling it is related to your algae issue?

I forget did you start getting the algae before you rescaped with the wood. I think you were, but it got worse after the rescape.

We are living by the same code as far as ferting (I like that word) , the only real difference is lighting and I guess stocking levels. Again I don't think tweaking ferts here and there is going to change anything. Remember it's an estimative index.

My 2 cents if you want it is:

1.Do semi-weekly water changes. With the python it's really not that big of a deal.
2.Pack as much biomaterial you can into your Eheim. Use purigen in the filter as well.
3.Add floating plants
4.Feed less (I'm not saying your overfeeding, but just feed less)
5.I'm sure you doing this, but make sure you do the tetra dance in full attire at least twice a week. You could do it during the water changes to save time.

My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 26-Feb-2006 21:28Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Weekly Tank Update - Week 22

I will incorporate tetratech's last entry here in this weeks update as it relates directly to the issues at hand, namely algae.

Well, first of all - no, the sun beam pictures were posted purely for their artistic value, even if I am not that much of an artist . I don't think that the 1 minute when the light hits the tank (and it is just a reflection of light from the neighbor's house, not even direct light) has anything to do with algae.

And tetratech - I don't think we are in the same boat with ferting. Every time when I dose Phosphates I have problems like this one. It might be a coincidence because I always tend to dose more by the broad rules after major changes, but I strongly believe that 5ppm of Phosphates does not mean that I "micro manage my macros" - this is 250% of what the Phosphate should be. My tab content is very different than yours and yes, my fish are creating phosphates as well. No more phosphate adding for the next 2 weeks .

Overall, I added two crypts to the tank that are still small, but seem to start to develop new roots - a good sign. Certain plants, in particular the Star Grass, are growing like mad, while others develop black spots (BBA, as Bensaf points out) or are even reduced in number (Duckweed - but don't tell me I am low on KNO3). I added clippings of Narrow Leaf Ludwigia from the 20G to the right hand side to increase the bioload.

EDIT: Feeding a little less sounds good, and yeah - I will try the dance more often, if it helps .

No more talk, more pictures . Here is a nice shot of the Alternanthera, for the first time ever this plant is really kicking into gear.

Attached Image:

Alternanthera reineckii



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Post InfoPosted 27-Feb-2006 00:56Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Here is a picture showing the cuttings of the Narrow Leaf Ludwigia. As you can see, they are very small but the plant is a fast grower, or at least used to be when it was in the tank originally. If all goes well then I will have to trim it the first time in about three weeks.

Attached Image:

Narrow Leaf Ludwigia



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Post InfoPosted 27-Feb-2006 00:59Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Now, for the full tank shots I don't want to bother you with too many pictures of the same, with just minor growth differences. In anyway, a fair comparison can only be made within the current design, and that is only 4 weeks old.

Here is the tank immediately after the dust had settled from the major overhaul:

Attached Image:

Week 19



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Post InfoPosted 27-Feb-2006 01:03Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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And here is the tank today. All looks good from the distance, but up close the algae is really kicking into full gear.

The Star Grass really needs a trimming soon, probably next weekend, if not sooner.

Oh, BTW, I was in the city today and went to a fish store there. Loads and loads of BBA, huge, in almost all of their tanks, plus many fish with fin rot and what not, plus too many dead ones. All plants in bad shape (they even had 2 bushels of Pearl Grass). But the Dwarf Rainbows were half the price then they are here, but I am proud of myself, I resisted .

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Week 22



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Post InfoPosted 27-Feb-2006 01:07Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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EditedEdited by Wingsdlc
LF,

I really like what your tank is turning into. Starting to look a little jungle like again though. Not that thats all bad because we can see your 2x4's sticking out of it.

Edit: On the scape of things... I really think you should work high in the middle to low on the outsides. I am not a big fan of the tall stuff in the back corners. Maybe put that in the middle behind or on the edge of the star grass.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 27-Feb-2006 02:22Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
And tetratech - I don't think we are in the same boat with ferting. Every time when I dose Phosphates I have problems like this one. It might be a coincidence because I always tend to dose more by the broad rules after major changes, but I strongly believe that 5ppm of Phosphates does not mean that I "micro manage my macros"

What I meant was that we are both following the same basic EI dosing principle and the differences in the two tanks are light and maybe fish load. It's strange because I once had unexplained high po4 levels in my tank until I finally realized it was the corrupted eco complete, but I was getting po4 levels in the 50+ppm range.

but I strongly believe that 5ppm of Phosphates does not mean that I "micro manage my macros"

I never said that you are micro managing your macros. That's just a general statement based on EI. Sorry if you thought that.





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Post InfoPosted 27-Feb-2006 04:09Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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That section in the middle is gorgous, LF. I was genuinely excited when I saw that pic.


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Post InfoPosted 27-Feb-2006 05:05Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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No more phosphate adding for the next 2 weeks


I think this is a bad idea. The idea behind EI is to get yourself into a routine of dosing so your plants always have what they need. I think you should keep dosing, but do less. I'm in your boat with the PO4 LF, but I'm going to dose it. No matter how small an amount I find keeps the levels around 1-2 ppm, that's what I'm going to do.

For me it's very easy to first dissolve the powder from Greg Watson into a 2L bottle so that 1mL = .15ppm of PO4 in my tank using Chuck's calculator. Right now that's what I'm dosing every other day. My tap provides the rest. I may still need to increase the dosing as this was a lowball estimate, but I'm going to dose it and stick to it until I find I need to increase or decrease it.

If I were you, that's what I'd do. You don't have a real nasty algae problem, your plants are growing. Stick to it and dose small amounts until your tank levels off at 2ish ppm of PO4. This might take a while, but at least you'll find the right amount to be consistant.



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Post InfoPosted 27-Feb-2006 06:24Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Wings, tetratech, NowherMan6, and Matty,

Thanks for your input

Wings - I agree with your, building from the visual center down towards the sides would look very nice and I envision something like that (at least for the moment) in the future. But I cannot afford to disrupt the plants currently as they are just beginning to recover from the major replant. As for right now, I will have to stick to this "design".

tetratech - No, I didn't mean to say that you imply I would not follow EI and that I would micro manage. Sorry about that misunderstanding, I was just using your siggie line as a guide for my words. What surprises me though is that I cannot get a clear "You are right, 5ppm Phosphate is too much" out of anyone here .

NowherMan6 - Yeah, that part is nice, maybe because it kind of copies tetratech's center piece section . I guess I will have to order a bunch of wisteria now and replace all other parts with that plant .

Matty - I gave your suggestion quite some thought, even before you made it. Actually, I thought about this already when I had the 10ppm of Phosphate quite a while back. Why do I not want to add more P in the next two weeks: Traditionally I have noticed that my P uptake is not really strong, so a small amount of P is very sufficient (around 2ppm with minimal dosing to keep it there). Having had 5ppm before the 50% water change and having tab water with about 2ppm should give me around 3.5ppm right now. Let's assume that there will be a 1ppm uptake during this week (which I doubt), then I have 2.5ppm before the next water change and after that there should be around 2.25ppm of P. What I may do is dose just a little in the second week, towards the end.

The conceptual issue I have is that I cannot understand that the plants would make any use of more P than necesairy. We all know that EI says a tenth of N in P (20ppm N and 2ppm P) should be more then the plants can "eat". There seems to be zero advantage (and maybe loads of disadvantages) to being over that level. So, why would I dose any, even tiny, amount?


Anyway - Just to make it all more complicated: After my latest entry I went ahead and perused the web focussing on Duckweed. I tried to find a reference that would state something like "High P will kill Duckweed". Unfortunately the opposite was true, it appears that Duckweed likes high P, darn. So, if that is the case, why do I have almost none left in the tank? Yeah, I removed a lot last weekend, but usually it is coming right back. I doubt that the test kits are so off that I would actually be starving P (and N, for that matter). The only other thing I can think off is my Excel treatment which I did during the entire week. Maybe, just like Egeria, Duckweed doesn't do well with a heavy dose of Excel. This would also explain why my other two tanks are Duckweed free, even with the occasional seeding of duckweed.

K, enough rambling for now. You all know how I feel as you all have been in this situation (yeah, same boat tetratech ) when you think you got something figured out and the next thought is reversing the whole logic.

Thanks for sticking with me,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 27-Feb-2006 12:04Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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I did some minor water testing last night to see if I actually have enough CO2. Just because I inject an almost constant stream wouldn't have to be equal to good CO2. So I tested for ph and KH

ph = 6.5
KH = 4 (I added a little more baking soda than usual)

That means my CO2 should be around 38 to 40ppm. I guess that is sufficient, right?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 18:48Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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38-40 should be fine. but if you're getting BBA then maybe it's not fine enough...

BTW, you add baking soda? Do you do this after WCs? What's your baking soda dosing schedule and why do you do it?


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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 19:02Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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LF,
I have a clear head right now, so let me interject some very sensible logic.

You say your ph is 6.5 and your kh is 4 so you have 39ppm.
Yes that sounds lovely. But let's say for argument purposes your ph is really 6.6 and your kh is 3.5 (which is totally possible) now your co2 is 26ppm. Still not bad, but... what if your ph is really 6.7 and your kh is 3 now your have co2 of 18ppm (Not as likely, but still very possible).

I have to defer to the great one. (In our little aqua world anyway). "Look at the fish, look at the plants. They will tell you more than some test kit"

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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 19:10Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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I have to defer to the great one. (In our little aqua world anyway). "Look at the fish, look at the plants. They will tell you more than some test kit"


Wayne Gretzky said that? Hm, I don't recall. Maybe it was during his one season with the St. Louis Blues....

... if not that, then I assume you're talking about Bensaf.

Now I know this has been argued over and over again but I'm still hanging on to the test kit lifeline. Are they all really that unreliable, even ph? If a test kit says 5ppm P, are we supposed to just not believe it and keep adding anyway?


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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 19:28Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Yeah Bensaf, not Wayne. I'm such a suck up
There really is no way with a color strip IMO to know exactly what your ph is, so as I showed if the true number is off a little from your test kit than it could mean a big difference in the co2 number, so yeah look at the fish. I could tell you I have constant stream of bubbles and my fish are all looking fine and my tank is 2 feet shorter than LF.

As far as the 5ppm reading, you would hope that would be fairly accruate 4 to 6ppm but who knows.

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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 19:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Wayne Gretzky said that?


Well, I for sure cannot guarantee that I have a ph of 6.5, maybe it is 6.7 or 6.3. I guess I could try to hook up my expensive ph testing device that I never used. Darn, I don't even remember what it is called .

Anyway, yes NowherMan6, I use Baking Soda. After each water change I add about 2tsp of baking soda to the tank to increase my KH which is normally from the tab about 1 KH .

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 20:58Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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EditedEdited by nowherman6
Yeah Bensaf, not Wayne. I'm such a suck up


Well he did give you mad props on your tank, so you owe him some serious rear-end smooching.

There really is no way with a color strip IMO to know exactly what your ph is, so as I showed if the true number is off a little from your test kit than it could mean a big difference in the co2 number, so yeah look at the fish. I could tell you I have constant stream of bubbles and my fish are all looking fine and my tank is 2 feet shorter than LF.


It just seems like test kits are useless if you're right. I mean what's the point? Is there even a range within which they're accurate?

For example, my ph test kit shows that before lights out, ph is 6.2 or under - it's a very light yellow. At first I was shocked by this because that would mean my CO2 is in the 90ppm range and my fish should be dead. But they're fine, no gasping at the surface at all, except for some normal gourami air breating. I'm even getting algae growth and my plant growth has slowed down considerably. There clearly isn't too much CO2, maybe even not enough according to the plants... but the test kit says otherwise. How would you advise proceeding?

All this test kit stuff has got me bothered. I'm afraid to even test my phosphates now...


EDIT: Thanks LF. My kH is also low, it's a 2. I may do the same to bump it up a bit. And I don't mean to hijack your thread with the above, it just seemed like an appropriate place to ask because the subject was breached earlier.


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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 21:01Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
NowherMan6,
so you owe him some serious ...


Talking about test kits is not highjacking at all, this is right on topic.

Just like an addict, when I have problems in the tank then I dig out the ole test kit and measure like a madman .

Although I have to say that this time around I measured P, N, ph, and KH exactly once.

I was not going for absolute numbers but rather for comparison to measurements over the last 22 weeks, in good times and in bad (yes, I am married to the tank ). When looking at the recent values I only find one that is not the same then when I was almost algae free, and that is P.

Besides these measurement, the only other differences are:

- more fish
- less plants
- plants not established

Heck, besides the hardware and the substrate the whole tank has changed .

Can't be that hard to pinpoint the reason for the darn thread

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 21:33Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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See that's the danger If your ph is 6.2 and your kh is 2 you have a co2 of 38ppm not 90ppm.

If your ph was 6.0 and your kh still 2 than you have a co2 of 60pmm, big difference.

Now if your ph is 6.0 and your kh is 3, now you have a co2 ppm of 90. Wht if your kh is really 2.5, see what I mean.





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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 21:37Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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more fish
less plants
plants not established


So what's the problem .
Waste, Mass and all that ....light. Now repeat after me "Sung to the tune of all the Jazz" Waste, mass and all that light, waste, mass and all that light.

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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 21:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Now if your ph is 6.0 and your kh is 3, now you have a co2 ppm of 90. Wht if your kh is really 2.5, see what I mean.


Exactly, that's why I'm mad as heck about these test kits, I have no idea. The shade of yellow is between the shades on the chart. Impossible to know.Any more of this and I'm going to just crank the CO2, test kits be damned. I'm almost at the breaking point.


Waste, Mass and all that ....light. Now repeat after me "Sung to the tune of all the Jazz" Waste, mass and all that light, waste, mass and all that light.


Tetra, you've clearly gone mad with power due to the success of your tank. Come down from the edge....


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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 21:51Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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due to the success of your tank


Well, it is a pretty tank I have to say

But don't worry, I assume it is just a question of time until the S hits the F . The Wisteria will revolt and decides that it deserves to be the tallest plant in the tank. The Riccia will have enough of being put in a hairnet and cuts itself lose. The oh so secret Stellata turns into a bean stalk, and the Star Grass into mush because it can't stand the dancing in front of the tank.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 22:12Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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A guy posts some pics of his tank and the master makes some nice comments and this is what I get:

Oh tetra, when your tank is covered in slimy brown staghorn and thread alage we'll look back and say that your hubris was your downfall. Reminds me of that famous ending line in Oedipus rex
.

But don't worry, I assume it is just a question of time until the S hits the F . The Wisteria will revolt and decides that it deserves to be the tallest plant in the tank. The Riccia will have enough of being put in a hairnet and cuts itself lose. The oh so secret Stellata turns into a bean stalk, and the Star Grass into mush because it can't stand the dancing in front of the tank.


And I thought wes were friends Don't worry you protists lovers, I'll get even

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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 23:09Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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What do you expect, you're the best of the best now. reminds me of that Far Side cartoon about the cowboy ping-pong players. The old grizzled vet goes "well kid, ya beat me - but now every paddle packin' player in the west lookin to make a name for himself is gonna come lookin' for you - welcome to hell, kid!" (please tell me I'm not the only one who likes the Far Side... )

Well tetra, every foreceps packin' plant person from Queensland to Queens, NY is gonna come lookin for ya...




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Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 23:18Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
upikabu
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You guys are seriously cracking me up!

Seriously though, I think tetra (aka grand wizard, mr. all that, etc. ) has a point about lights. In my tanks I've observed that as soon as I upgrade them to the higher light territory (>2.5wpg), there's a very delicate balance between good plant growth and algae appearance (which I haven't quite figured out yet ), all factors (plant mass, fish mass, ferts, CO2) being equal (or similar). In my lower light tanks, I get little to no visible algae, and even when I do, it's easily fixed. With higher light, there's less margin for error, so to speak.

Then again, maybe I'm still dreaming (just got up).

-P
Post InfoPosted 28-Feb-2006 23:59Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Nowher


I guess I'll have to be really careful what I say, cause you all will be gunning for me at the Fish Profile Corral.


Upikabu,
100% correct with the lighting. I mean if you have enough plants and the conditions are good the plants will take advantage of the extra light and grow better, but if the other conditions aren't "upgraded" to take advantage of the new light then that's a big crack for the protist army to march on Rome. Speaking of Rome, I hung up a pic of ChaosMaximus's tank as motivation to keep up with my maintenance and fert schedule. I think if nowher and LF hang up his pic too, they'll feel a whole lot better about their tanks. Sorry Chaos




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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 00:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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We all know that EI says a tenth of N in P (20ppm N and 2ppm P) should be more then the plants can "eat". There seems to be zero advantage (and maybe loads of disadvantages) to being over that level. So, why would I dose any, even tiny, amount?


There's no way you will find that sweet spot in the dosing routine if you stop, start, stop, start. You will be condemned to eternal suffering not knowing how much to dose. I'd say that if you want to go ahead and zero the tank for the next two weeks, just start up with really slow dosing from there, like I said as little as .15ppm a day If you think that's all your plants need beyond what's in the tap. I'm only going to test until I figure out how much I need beyond what's in the tap.


IMO, Test kits are good enough to be taken with a grain of salt. The NO3 and PO4 test kits can be "calibrated" by testing them with a known solution made using Chuck's calculator. Tom Barr has done all the research to show us we don't need exact values for this stuff anyways. This is only to double check our work. First, we have Tom's work to show us with the use of large water changes, an average can be maintained. Then we have the plants to show us if something is amiss. And lastly we have the test kits to explain maybe why something is up.

I feel your pain with the pH test kits, Nowherman. These things are awful hard to read. If the color in the tube is between colors in the chart, then the number is between those. But I have a hard time telling which colors it's inbetween. I had a thread about a week ago about getting a pH controller(By the way LF I'll give you $50 for that thing). The thing with this is that we do want to be exact, and IMO the resolution on the liquid test kits is nowhere near where we need it to be. This is due to the logarithmic nature of the pH scale. A small difference and you can be WAAAAY off.

Oh, and did someone say
St. Louis Blues....
?(sorry I had to)



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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 00:59Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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How would you advise proceeding?


How to proceed without test kits is easy enough. Just add a known quantity of nutrients each week. Then you are in control.

Observing the tank will pretty much show the rest.

Plants like Hygro will show N and K deficiencies very quickly. Holes in old leaves will show lack of K, fall off or yellowing of old leaves will show a lack of N. Plants like Mayacca or red plants will show FE levels by their color.
Want to be sure the Co2 is good. Keep upping it until the fish show a sign of dis-comfort then pull it back just a notch. Or watch the growth, speed size etc, appearance of green spot or BBA will indicate the Co2 is not as good as it should be.
Still getting green spot algae P can be pushed higher.

The test kits are inaccurate to start with, the color charts are difficult to read etc.

Look at the difference in the color and growth in tetras tank (envy is a terrible things boys, leave him be ) since he added more nutrients.

Matty makes a good point that constant chopping and changing of routines is bad for both the tank and you. Stability is important for the tank, constant change makes it diffult to pinpoint issues, you get lost easily.

Usually upping things solve problems, reducing rarely does, more often then not it creates new problems.

I'm sure LF's problems are temporary. Theres a big job done, lot's of mulm kicked in the water. Mulm will cause problems, a big clean up should be done at least once a year. BGA for example can use it for carbonate. I didn't like the daily dosing routine.

I'm sure by upping the N (as a reference to above, his reineckii was doing bad, it's doing better now since he added more N, I'm telling you from experience that if N is low eineckii will stunt and twist and curl it's leaves like nobody, give it N and it'll right itself easy enough. See I do pay attention These are the little things I always look for when somebody is having a problem. I don't go for the fanciful theories. Sometimes you guys can't see the woods for the trees, except for tetra of course, he's great ), keeping the Co2 up and keeping everything stable will stop it. In the meantime hassle it. Remove what you can, Excel blast the rest.


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 04:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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envy is a terrible things boys, leave him be


Would it be too awful of a pun to say that I'm literally green with envy over Tetra's tank?

Seriously though, he's come a long way following EI, certainly a far cry from turning the old 46 into a brewery tank. He certainly found his way to the path we're all looking for. We owe him a Guiness, or at least a Murphy's

Oh, and I guess we owe Tom Barr one too, for ya know, coming up with the whole EI thing...

I just tossed my pH kit in the garbage with some plant clippings. We'll see where this goes.

Oh and Matty- great to see another hockey fan on the boards Tough going for your Blues right now...


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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 05:22Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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you get lost easily
Sure do

Well, this was fun again

Anyway,

- I am back on the bi-daily fert routine with macros one and micros the other day, so that should give more stability (although I am most certain that it was Bensaf who once told me that going to daily would be more stable .
- I don't think I can (or want to) do too much about the light as I have the second row on for 3 hours only. I think in this phase my plants need it to re-establish themselves. Half the light is only around 1.5wpg.
- Removing much of the existing algae creates a problem on the Helferi as I would have to cut off almost all leaves. Same counts for the Red Rubin Sword and half the Anubias leaves. How would I go about the wood and rock algae? Take a pad and rub it as good as I can? I cannot remove these entities.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 12:24Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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certainly a far cry from turning the old 46 into a brewery tank
Had to get that jab in didn't ya nowher.

Since you brought it up, here's a pic of me attempting to make black and tans in my kitchen. I think we should have a horror tank thread rated "r" for revolting. I think this pic would quality and I could name a few others


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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 15:11Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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How would I go about the wood and rock algae? Take a pad and rub it as good as I can? I cannot remove these entities.


Yes, you should be able to get one of those algae scrubber pads pretty cheap. Just be gentle and try not to rock the boat too much and it should come off.

As for the leaves, maybe take as much by hand and then... well, in theory, shouldn't the algae just die off as conditions improve

Had to get that jab in didn't ya nowher.


It wasn't a jab, it's one of my favorite FP member incidents. I didn't think it was as funny until I actually did DIY co2 myself and you realize the mix actually smells just like beer.

Great idea for a thread, start it up in GF


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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 15:23Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Yeah,

I guess looking at my tank at this stage and then comparing it to others (like the brewery above, for example) should make me feel better as it really isn't all that bad

But speaking off bad, or what not. I was thinking about lights and nutrients and what not this morning on the bus to work and I remembered an old entry from Bensaf where he reacted to my mass-interference (changing 15 things at the same time) by saying that even if the situation is improving I would never know why. So true

As such, it seems to be actually a good idea that the only parameter that I am changing right now is Phosphates. If it doesn't help, oh well - at least we can explicitly eliminate this one from the culprit list. Which reminds me - You all seem to agree that lowering my P the way I do it would not be good. I really would appreciate if you could help me out and answer the following questions:

1) Did you ever have knowingly 5ppm (or more) of P in your tank?
2) If so, did you have more algae than usual at that time?
3) Hypothetically speaking, plants take up nutrients. Do you belive they would take up more P when there are 5ppm in the water rather than 2ppm?
4) If not, why would it matter in what form a reduction of P is achieved (stop of adding P vs. adding tiny amounts)?

This are my nagging questions, I hope you don't mind

Thanks in advance,

Ingo


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tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
How would I go about the wood and rock algae? Take a pad and rub it as good as I can? I cannot remove these entities

I'm looking for a smily with a violin, but I can't find one. Not to rub it in, but all my hardscape is
removable

Bu seriously, how come you don't have a bigger clean up crew in your tank, I know it's not going to solve the problem. Will the gourmai and/or rainbows eat them. Supposely Cherry shrimps eat a wide variety of algae and are very durable.

Edit: Nowher I think I will start that thread, it can even be a poll, like most horrific tank situation.

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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 15:39Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by bensaf
A thread of horrors, now there's one thread were I wouldn't have a suitable photo

Without trimming the leaves , try applying the Ecel onto the algae directly using a syringe.

1) Did you ever have knowingly 5ppm (or more) of P in your tank?

I have never owned a phosphate test kit. I have never tested for phosphate. I have no idea how much phosphate I have. It could be 1ppm , it could be 10ppm.I do know I add about 5ppm a week ! That's all I really need to know. I used to have to clean the glass a couple a times a week. I hardly ever clean it now.
2) If so, did you have more algae than usual at that time?

Dunno, can somebody post a photo of algae, I've forgotten what it looks like
I do know that green spot algae disappeared when I added a lot of P and was never replced by any other forms.

3) Hypothetically speaking, plants take up nutrients. Do you belive they would take up more P when there are 5ppm in the water rather than 2ppm?

You miss a very important point about nutrients. Don't obsess on uptake rates or what's left behind. It doesn't matter if growth is fast or slow. It doesn't matter if the tank is full of heavy nutrient consuming plants or slow low consuming ones 9once the tank is established). It doesn't matter if there's an excess of 1 ppm or 5ppm of P. What is vital is that there is non limiting growth, whether it be fast or slow. It's niches. Non limiting growth leaves no room for algae. Repeat after me algae do not need an excess of nutrients It's illogical. They need a gap, an opening. Non limiting growth of plants keeps this door firmly shut.

The only way to be certain that you have non limiting conditions is to add the nutrients yourself. Regularly. Keep the door shut. No need for test kits.With kits there will always always be a degree of uncertainty. By adding the nutrients you remove that uncertainty.

By changing things slowly and allowing things to develop you can focus in on issues.

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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 16:04Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Interesting, LF and Nowher are both from Jersey.
O.K. we'll have to work around it. Do everything Bensaf has described but use bottled water from this point forward.


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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Gang,

Don't misunderstand my questions about this P thing as me trying to argue just for the argument sake. I really try to understand it. So please bear with me, if you have to give me the ole Violin so be it, but keep an open mind here. Call it my inexperience, or my tendency to take words in a foreign language (yes, remember - this is my second language) too literally, but I see nobody here who knows of having 5ppm of P and had no algae issues with it. Or call me crazy, I don't mind as long as you at least try to understand where I am coming from with this stuff.

Here are some extracts from Tom Barr's Estimative Index:

"Old myths still abound claiming excess PO4 in tap water causes algae, this has clearly been shown by many hobbyist to be patently false. The tap water has nutrients in it, then you do not have to dose these nearly as much, this is actually a good thing! Why take something out and then add it back again?"

He is not saying how much is considered excess that would not cause algae, though. But he says that if it is in the tab water then you don't have to add it (as much).

Then, in his section about recommended values:

"PO4 range 1.0-3.0 ppm"

And he continues:

"I have added to almost 3ppm of PO4 consistently week after week. Plant's response is incredible." And he says "At some point the plants will not take up any more traces. Same can be said for PO4."

Take the last statement and tag on Bensaf's statement of "Repeat after me algae do not need an excess of nutrients It's illogical. They need a gap, an opening. Non limiting growth of plants keeps this door firmly shut."

Wouldn't that be the opening? Tom never speaks of more than 3ppm of P, and he mentions that there is an uptake limit. The gap between that limit and the currently available 5ppm is the gap, the opening.

Further, Tom writes:

"By knowing what the tap water is comprised of and giving the water company a call to find out what the PO4, NO3, K, and Fe levels are, you can replace the water with water changes and use plain old chemistry or Chuck's calculator to figure out what you need for your nutrient levels without a test kit."

OK - P in my tab is 2ppm, right within his range. The conclusion would be that additional P is only required if P falls based on uptake. This is further supported by his next statement:

"The other issue about folks that often do not add macro nutrients/traces etc, is many do large water changes. These folks often do not know what their tap water has in it. If it is rich in NO3 and PO4 like many regions of the USA and Europe, then each week they do a large water change, they are adding nutrients and CO2. People wondered why my plants did so well with the water changes I did each week and when they tested found high levels of PO4, I was adding KNO3 and lots of traces and high light and high trace dosing and had no algae and dramatic plant health and growth."

But he ends with a comment in a question that states (well known to all of us, as Bensaf uses this as his punch line ): "It assumes that deficencies, not excess causes algae." Bu yet again, he never spoke of more than 3ppm of P.

Ingo


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EditedEdited by tetratech
LF,

Three interesting paragraphs pulled from the EI Article.

"truthfully do not know what levels of NO3 and PO4 (for example) cause problems for plants or induce algae in a fully planted tank. NO3 levels above 40ppm can cause fish health issues. PO4 at very high levels can influence alkalinity (KH) above 5ppm-10ppm."
Has your KH been influenced?

"It is one of the biggest unknown variables in keeping planted tanks, watts/gallon does not tell you much, but rough guides are fine if the aquarist maintain the CO2 and nutrient levels well....An important aspect of this method is the knowledge that excess nutrients do not cause algae blooms as so many authors in the past and many today still maintain without having tested this critically in aquariums with a healthy plant biomass. It is a welcomed relief knowing that “excess” phosphate, nitrate and iron do not cause algae blooms."
Key word here "healthy plant biomass". So here he does leave the door open about excess nutrients and plant mass.

"For many years this has been the assumption but it is incorrect. Ammonium (NH4+) at low levels have been the primary causative agent for algae blooms in terms of an "excess" nutrient. This is why a planted tank using CO2 with moderate to high lighting cannot have enough nitrogen supplied by adding progressively more and more fish to the tank without getting algae blooms. It does not take much ammonium to cause the bloom. If you add NO3 from KNO3 you will not get any algae bloom, if you add even 1/20th of the ammonium you will get a very intense algae bloom. This test can be repeated many times and ran again and again with the same result. Adding NO3 will not induce the bloom."
You already know this, but you added more fish and decreased plant mass.

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Post InfoPosted 01-Mar-2006 20:17Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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You already know this, but you added more fish and decreased plant mass.


Very interesting. LF, have you in fact checked for ammonia in your tank?


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You know what? I haven't tested for Ammonia in ages.

I assumed that the fish I physically added are nothing compared to the fish that are in there already. And these have been upping the biofilter gradually as they started of tiny (and small in numbers) and gradually increased in size (and numbers).

I will check tonight

Thanks,

Ingo


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tetratech
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Yes, good idea Nowher you should definitely check, but just becuase your "test kit" doesn't detect anything doesn't mean there isn't enough there to feed algae. I think that is in the EI article as well, that the level might be so small.

BTW - LF, contribute to the new thread
http://www.fishprofiles.com/forums/thread.aspx?id=27413&rp=2

If you have anything

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tetratech,

You really created the thread, that's cool .

I will see if I have a good picture that would make an impression and post it. Can't wait until Chaos adds his picture .

I will measure tonight, as promised, but I also guess that I will not get any reading for Ammonia (or hope that I don't). I can imagine that I have upset the biofilter big time during my overhaul and what I have now is still the afterburner of that event.

Thanks,

Ingo


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If a deficiency of phosphate causes algae, then how come I am not seeing lots of algae? My last test showed .5 ppm P. That's a far cry from 5 ppm! I have since added the NPK that I have, the nitrate at last test was 10 ppm, so I should now have 13.5 ppm, according to the dosing info. It may be a bit less, it may be a bit more, but I may still be short on P, would adding more food help? I'm sure the fish would enjoy it!

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Post InfoPosted 02-Mar-2006 01:09Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Wouldn't that be the opening? Tom never speaks of more than 3ppm of P, and he mentions that there is an uptake limit. The gap between that limit and the currently available 5ppm is the gap, the opening.


That wouldn't qualify as a gap. The nutrients are present all the time whether it be 1ppm or 5ppm. So there's no opening there.
The opening is when something is limiting plant growth. Think of it kind of like a predator constantly circling a herd waiting for a sick, weak or old prey to seperate from the herd, then he strikes. Doesn't make any difference whether there's 10 antelope or 100, he needs to wait for the sick weak one.
Even a small amount (a smidgen maybe ? ) of NH4 is an opening.

Note too when Tom talks about excesses it's never regarding algae issues, never. It's plant/fish toxicity, it's about causing changes in water parameters etc , but never algae.

Even if your tap is 2ppm of P you'll still need some. The uptake per week should be about 3ppm , so you'll s



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luvmykrib - If your P should be really low then you will for sure get algae, now that you have more light and DIY CO2 (if I remember that right), just give it some time

Bensaf - Makes sense. Well, let me take your uptake number of 3ppm per week. I will measure what P is tomorrow and see how much has been tanken up. My uptake for sure did take a big hit with the replant a few weeks back. I guess this was the opening then. Thanks

In general, I did measure and lucky didn't come up with any detectable Ammonia. Yeah, I know, there still may be some small amounts (like a nip ), but at least I am not off the scale.

Thanks again all for hanging in there with my nagging P questions,

Ingo


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luvmykrib
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0.5 ppm PO4, is it really low? I was reading the Tom Barr EI article and that's right in the range, is there somewhere else where he says more is better? If so, what should I be aiming for? I have only green spot algae, a tiny bit of staghorn in my 25g, more staghorn and green spot in the 10g though.

Side question, what causes black beard algae and what makes it go away? I'm asking for my brother's 55g which has the stuff in it. Low-light, some plants, 2-3 years old, fairly well maintained, he's doing weekly water changes now.

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Post InfoPosted 03-Mar-2006 21:55Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
luvmykrib,

0.5ppm is really low when you want to maintain a 10 to 1 balance of N to P and strive for 20ppm of N. That's at least the values I am playing with at this high tech / high light tank. Your algae (and your brothers) is most likely from a nutrient imbalance. Did you ever see This Page? It shows you some info about what algae is caused by what. BBA has an entry that says it is based on high P, but that has to be put in relation to N, as your P might be just right but N might be too low (and K and micros, of course).

Hope this helps

Anyway - I had the day off and what else is there to do when it is cold outside than tank maintenance? As such I did my weekly water change on all 3 tanks and will create my weeky update today rather than tomorrow or on Sunday.

Weekly Tank Update - Week 23

The last week has seen very little to no action. I just let the plants grow, added my ferts (no P) and food, and that was it. Pretty much all week was spent on discussing how much of P is right . The plants have been doing fine and it seems the spread of thread algae is beginning to slow down or even stop (or I just got used to it). I needed to trim the Star Grass and was immediately reminded of tetratech's first attemp which concluded with bad growth for a while. As such I trimmed it only a little, just enough to allow the water to flow over it.

So, with many more words, here are 3 totals over the last 4 weeks for comparison purposes. This is the tank 4 weeks ago when the current layout was just created:

Attached Image:

Week 19, new Layout



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In week 21, 2 weeks later, some plants startedt show nice signs of growth. Others, like the Macandra, started to lose leaves and others, like the Helferi showed a major increase in thread algae:

Attached Image:

Week 21



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Today, another 2 weeks later, the Star Grass is still growing strong and the Pearl Grass is picking up the pace as well. Algae is still a subject though. I also did not have another major loss of leaves on the Crypt Retrospiralis anymore, only a few melted this week:

Attached Image:



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Here is a close-up of the Alternanthera showing us how beatiful pink-purple the underside of its leaves can be.

Also, have a look at the vertical leaf on the left side and how it is covered in thread algae. That is a leaf from the Red Rubin Sword

Attached Image:

Alternanthera



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This close-up is for all the old and new friends of Amano Pearl Grass (right upikabu ). It is the group that grows right in front of the big branch in the middle of the tank. Some branches are growing straight up while others prefer to crawl along the substrate.

I guess if I would cut off the tall branches I could achieve a nice carpet effect with the crawlers, like the Dr. does.

Attached Image:

Pearl Grass



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And last but not least:

Who says I am fat?

Seriously, the question here is if it is normal that some Otos are so much bigger than others, or if this indicates that the top right one is a female.

I thought it is a nice shot:

Attached Image:

Oto and Oto and OOOOto



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Ingo - interesting to see the pearl grass crawling across the substrate. Do they actually send the horizontal runners themselves, or did you something special (e.g. tetra dance ) to encourage it?

Nice fat otto. I assume they have plenty to eat in your tank - you only have 6 right? Your tank can probably feed triple that amount without a hitch. The 3 otos in my 23g are even fatter than yours, plenty of protists to eat I guess.

Cheers!

-P
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Seriously, the question here is if it is normal that some Otos are so much bigger than others, or if this indicates that the top right one is a female.


Interesting. I have one that's the same way fatter then all the others. So much so I thought it was bloat, but it's been that fat for over a year now and still going, so it must be just obesity or a sexual difference. All the others are much slimmer.


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No, I didn't do anything to tame the Pearl Grass, it decided to grow this way all on its own. As to why - I have no idea.

The Otos are a miracle. Why would some under the same conditions (age, food source, tank) become so much fatter than others. I can't imagine it would have anything to do with alpha males as food is available all over the tank.

Ingo


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Female.
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Producing eggs then?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
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Perhaps, but in general, they are already likely quite wide. As with all loricariidae, they reabsorb any eggs not laid.
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very interesting!

So LF where are the weekly pictures??

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
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I have been thinking about the P issue. Here's my thought, excess P and low light, no CO2 may cause BBA, it has in my 10g. In Ingo's tank, excess P and high light and CO2 cause...flowers! In terrestrial plants, the nutrient that encourages blooming is phosphate. Nitrogen makes things green, phosphate makes things bloom and potassium makes roots grow. How different can aquatic plants be from that?
Anyway, now that it is out of my head and here in print I can get some other deep thinking done. Like why no-one has visited me in my thread lately, it's so lonely there.

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Here's my thought, excess P and low light, no CO2 may cause BBA,


Low Co2 and unstable (either high or low) Co2 will cause BBA. In a non Co2 injected tank , water changes will provide the unstable Co2 levels.

Never known P to have any role in the appearance of BBA.

KH, lots of mulm will have a bigger role. BBA is very good at grabbing the small amount of carbon it needs from carbonate and organic matter.

Algae seems to be lousy at using inorganic sources of nutrients such as that in the KNO3 and KH2PO4 we use.


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EditedEdited by luvmykrib
Taken from a page on Chuck Gadd's site, courtesy of the link Ingo posted.

Red algae: Also called Black Beard Algae (bba), or Black Brush Algae. Short hairs (1/4" long), closely packed together. Appears dark green, black, or dark red. Grows on plant leaves, and sometimes on decorations/substrate. Often grows all around the edges of plant leaves.
BBA thrives in situations of high phosphates. Phosphates come from fish waste, excess food, and occasionally will be present in the water supply. The best way to eliminate BBA is to let the plants out-compete the algae for the nutrients.



In heavily planted tanks, BBA will often show up when the plants have used up all the nitrates. This causes plant growth to slow or stop, which leaves the excess phosphates available to the algae. By supplying extra Nitrate to a planted tank, we allow plant growth to continue until all phosphate is consumed. Then plant AND algae growth will slow/stop. As long as a usable (5-10ppm) level of Nitrate is maintained, the the plants will continue to use up the available phosphate, effectively controls BBA and other phosphorus-dependant algaes. See the article "Adding Nitrate to a Planted Tank" for detailed instructions on how to increase your Nitrate levels.


Thus excess of P will cause BBA, when there is not enough nitrate. I added both nitrate and phosphate together and now have BBA in my 10g tank. This tank has no CO2, has 1.5 wpg, and is pretty fully stocked. There was no BBA before the addition of the NPK. My 25 on the other hand has .5ppm of P, better light, 2.5 wpg, CO2 at a steady level and no BBA.
But really, my idea was more that Ingo seems to get flowers more often than anyone else and it could be the P that is making it happen. He must have a good balance of nutrients including P to make the plants bloom the way they do. Have to admit I'm jealous and am starting to beg my anubiuas to put out even a little flower!

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speaking of flowering plants. I have had two crypts flower at work. All I give them is some excel every other day.


55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
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luvmykrib
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I knew someone else had them flower, couldn't remember who. What's the PO4 level in your tanks that have had flowers? Any idea? It's just a theory based on what I have learned from gardening, I thought I would put it out there and see if anyone could absolutely rule it out. Finding the right balance and maintaining it would be a trick, although I don't worry overmuch about my land plants, they flower for the most part, but lawn grass can be brought into bloom by adding fertilizer with more P in it, fall fertilizer generally has more k and spring fertilizer has the most N.

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Post InfoPosted 06-Mar-2006 05:35Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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I have no idea how much P the tanks at work have in them. I only way they are getting it is from fish food because I don't thing the kool steril system lets that through but i could be wrong.

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Post InfoPosted 06-Mar-2006 05:39Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
luvmykrib
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Fish food, fish poop, are just 2 ways of P getting in, water changes if it's in the water supply is another way. Generally store tanks are overstocked and over filtered to compensate, but they must still get some P build-up, I don't think UV gets rid of it, but I could be wrong on that. My water supply from the city goes through UV and it still gets to me with a hardness of 300, and who knows what else.

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Cup_of_Lifenoodles
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UV generally removes only organic contaminants such as bacterium. Hardness salts should remain unaffected.
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luvmykrib
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Does it also remove phosphates?


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Cup_of_Lifenoodles
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Not that I'm aware of.
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bensaf
 
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EditedEdited by bensaf
Thus excess of P will cause BBA, when there is not enough nitrate.


Next time you read the article, check when it was written

It's old stuff. A lot has changed, our knowledge has increased since then, mainly due to the testing of some the more experienced guys.

These kind of aruments were the kind of thing that started the "excess nutrients myths". Lot of people concluded P caused algae therefore P is bad.

In a case as described above the stalling of plant growth due to the lack of nitrates will cause the algae - nothing to with P. The algae would have come whether the P was 5 or 0.5ppm.

To stop BBA in a non Co2 tank don't do water changes or use Excel.

Or if you don't believe that try adding N, NOT elimating P,and see if that helps !Bet it won't. In which case that theory is down the drain. You can test these thu=ings yourself if you're willing to play with a tank.



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Post InfoPosted 06-Mar-2006 17:01Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
FRANK
 
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Hi,
My only comment is to mention that a UV system will not
remove anything. It will kill anything alive that passes
through it. Parasites, live algae spores, etc. It is a
sterilizer, not a filter.

Frank


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Post InfoPosted 06-Mar-2006 21:56Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
luvmykrib
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Little_Fish?

Where are you?

Hope you're well!

You're falling down on your 10 posts/day!

Please come back!

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Post InfoPosted 09-Mar-2006 22:56Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
FRANK
 
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Hi,
Didn't he say something about hurting his back shoveling
snow?
I too hope he is doing ok.
Frank


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Post InfoPosted 10-Mar-2006 02:34Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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Yeah he did a while back. No pun intended.

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Post InfoPosted 10-Mar-2006 04:33Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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EditedEdited by mattyboombatty
Nah, he probably pulled his back messing around with the driftwood and rocks in his tank.

Geezer.



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LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks Matty

Well, I am back now.

I couldn't stand the look of my algea anymore and treated myself (and the family) to another view.

I have to read all new entries in this and the other threads before I can make any fish related entries, I only came back early this morning and haven't even seen my tanks yet.

In the meantime, enjoy the view

Attached Image:

The Really Big Tank



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Post InfoPosted 12-Mar-2006 15:03Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
upikabu
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Welcome back, Ingo! We've missed you.
Glad you enjoyed yourself while we're messing with our tanks.
Did you see any algae in that big tank?

-P
Post InfoPosted 12-Mar-2006 15:08Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks upikabu,

I am sure there is algae in the really big tank, but it fits right in

On the other hand, I am already in PANIC MODE again. I checked on the tank a few minutes ago and found loads of thread algae on many leaves and all over the wood and rocks. All fish seemed to be doing fine and it took my a while to see what was going on:

My CO2 bottle is empty

And that on a Sunday . I have no idea when the bottle ran out. I for sure did not see a low meter reading before I left. Grrrrrrrrr

I will do a large water change later and supplement with Excel until I get a new bottle.

So much about a happy return

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 12-Mar-2006 17:48Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Ingo,

First things first, - Welcome back. I think I could speak for everyone that you were missed.

My CO2 bottle is empty

Your not going to believe this, but my bottle ran out yesterday and I never noticed the high pressure gauge was down. I'm running on fumes and still have a small stream coming out of my diffusor.

So since we started our tanks I believe at the same time I guess I could conclude that I've been running more co2 than you based on the 50+ gallon difference in our tanks.



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Post InfoPosted 12-Mar-2006 18:12Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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tetratech,

thanks for the warm welcome , I had FP withdrawal symptoms for the first few days of vacation, but then I got used to the fact that snorkeling and staring at fish from the dark side is fun as well.

Yeah, you sure must have been using more CO2 than I did. I am kind of glad to hear that your bottle is going on empty as well. I was thinking that my regulator might be broken, but if yours is down too then the likelyhood that I just ran on empty "naturally" is pretty high.

Here is a full tank shot. The Star Grass and the some other plants don't seem to mind the thread algae and the lower CO2 values, the Macandra is near death.

Attached Image:

Full Tank, no maintenance yet



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Post InfoPosted 12-Mar-2006 18:31Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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LF,

Tank looks pretty darn nice from that distance. It's hard to believe there are issues. I know it's fun to grow different species, exotics, etc, but it's the tank that's important, so don't drive yourself crazy trying to keep one species. As I've said before you can't be all things in all fish and plants.

BTW - I forget is there any preparation when disconnecting the co2 tank for refill?


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FRANK
 
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Hi,
Welcome back...

SOME PEOPLE have ALL THE FUN!

Frank


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Post InfoPosted 12-Mar-2006 19:14Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
tetratech,

You are right (as usual, or at least as very often ), I shouldn't drive myself crazy. The problem is that there are threads now all over the place and I only can hope that they will dissapear by themselves once the new CO2 bottle is hooked up and all can balance out again. BTW, I cannot get a bottle until tomorrow evening, the earliest.

About preparations: I don't think so, just close the old bottle and unscrew it, hook up the new one as if it would be the first time setting it up. Meaning, blow out the bottle a little first, then screw the regulator on (with the white tape), make sure all valves are in the right position, and open the main valve. That should be it.

I will go and do the water change now, maybe I try to remove some old leaves. I for sure have to trim the Star Grass and maybe also some Pearl Grass, although I might keep that one long just to have enough settled plant mass in there for the time being.

Ingo

EDIT: Frank - Thanks


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Post InfoPosted 12-Mar-2006 19:21Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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LF,

Any bubbles coming out of diffusor at all. I still have a small stream even though my pressure is gone, I guess that's normal with gas. If you have nothing at all it might have run out before mine or it's not strong enough to make it thru the reactor. Do you have any bubbles in the bubble counter?

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LITTLE_FISH
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tetratech,

I got nothing, zip, nada

I guess that means that it started to run out as soon as I left a week ago .

I am in the middle of the water change now. I did a major trim of the Star Grass, actually a replant of tops and disposal of the bottoms.

Back to the Python

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 12-Mar-2006 20:25Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Thanks for the update. I haven't even started my WC yet.
At least you have excel. I don't have any although I just placed an order from bigals for a 2 liter bottle that should be here by Tuesday. I also ordered some Flourish Iron to see if it brings out the reds even more.

So as far as the co2 canister I guess you close it and take off the regulator.



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Post InfoPosted 12-Mar-2006 20:33Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
upikabu
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Ingo - you left CO2 on while on vacation? You must be braver than I thought, considering the problems Bensaf mentioned before when he left his CO2 on while away. Did you reduce the lighting or duration? How about ferts?

-P
Post InfoPosted 12-Mar-2006 23:11Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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You must be braver than I thought
Yeah, I am a brave man .

No, I actually have a neighbor who's son watched over my tanks while I was gone. I premixed macros, readied a bottle with micros, pre-dosed food, and gave him exact instructions (written down) on what to do with what tank when. All was thought out, except that I may run out of CO2 . There was nothing the neighbor could have done as he only has experience with low tech tanks and I was not easily reachable anyways. Tough luck I say.

Anyway - Weekly Tank Update - Week 24

As has been mentioned in this and a few previous posts, I have been away for a week and ran out of CO2. This was all the invitation the algae needed to really settle in nicely, I hope it will go away after all parameters are back in sink again. If I would have to remove all infected leaves then the tank would be pretty empty now. All fish have survived my absence, at least the ones I can count (Otos, Rainbows, and Gouramies).

During the maintenance I replanted the Star Grass, it got way too big (see picture a few posts up) and I replanted the tops only. Otherwise I didn't do any trimming, even if the Pearl Grass is getting too big as well. I don't want to have too many plants not being settled at the same time.

K, here is the full tank after it was replanted in the current format, on week 19:

Attached Image:

Initial Current Setup Week 19



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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 00:08Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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And here is the tank after today's water change and maintenance. I supplemented with Excel to have at least some carbon in the tank until I can get a new bottle (hopefully tomorrow evening, if time permits).

Note the Macandra to the right of the wood group. It is really pale (unlike the Alternanthera) and any new growth that started in the last two weeks (sideshoots on main stems) is withering away as well.

Attached Image:

Tank Today - Week 24



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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 00:11Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thread Anyone?

Here is a close-up of some Cyperus Helferi leaves covered in thread algae. This is pretty much like the whole group looks like and various of the other plants as well.

Darn

Attached Image:

Cyperus Helferi Thread Algae



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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 00:13Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Or how about a nice rock covered in threads?

Also, note the beautiful BBA on the Sag at the left side. BBA is seen in various parts of the tank, but mostly on leaves that are on their way out, like on Sags and Crypt Retrospiralis. These two plant types have not taken the replanting 5 weeks ago too well. Some seem to recover, others just hang in, while the rest is withering away.

Attached Image:

Algae Rock and Narrow Leaf Sag with BBA



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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 00:16Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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LF, sorry to see all the problems. Where do you go from here? I know you had algae problems before you went away, but do you think the lack of co2 made it worse in that period of time?

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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 00:39Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Where do you go from here?


No idea

Well, I first will try to see if cranking up the CO2 (once I have it) will help. If not then I guess I will have to order quite a few new plants. And I guess that would mean that I have to start over yet again, and I am really not into that at all.

I think that the existing algae really profited from the CO2 running out, with as you say "all that light" and the nutrients being available. Under these conditions I can imagine that it had a feast and that a few days were enough to create the current situation. Let's see what the Grand Master has to say about this .

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 00:58Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
The interesting thing is that we both dispensed about the same amount of co2 over the same period of time and your tank is considerably bigger than mine. Now the only algae I really have is some BBA, which supposely is known to happen in low co2 situations. If that is true, then I must turn mine up even higher and you my friend must get a second cansister.

The fish never gasped

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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 01:47Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
upikabu
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BBA, which supposely is known to happen in low co2 situations

I'm starting to question the validity of this hypothesis in CO2-injected tank. In my DIY CO2 injected tank, the only spot where I've seen BBA growing is on an area of the driftwood that's directly in the path of the CO2 bubbles being spit out of the diffuser. Therefore this spot should have the highest CO2 level in the entire tank. I'm starting to think that the reason for this BBA growing there is not necessarily the lack of CO2, but more the unevenness/fluctuation of the CO2 level in the area (as you know, in DIY CO2 the output of CO2 is not constant). If that's true, then in a pressurized CO2 injected tank I would expect BBA only in spots where the level of CO2 varies greatly (e.g. where water flow is restricted).

Too bad I can't test this as I don't have a CO2 tank.

-P
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tetratech
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upikabu,
I could tell you in my tank 99.9% of the bba is on nongrowing surfaces, but it doesn't seem to matter where these are located in terms of flow and co2 dispersion. Some of the surfaces are right in the flow of the co2 others are at the far end of the tank.

I have followed several threads about bba where aquarists complained that the bba was worse where they had something (dw, rock) directly in the flow of the co2.


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upikabu
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Tetra - that's interesting. Perhaps the junk/dirt that gets collected on these non-growing surfaces plus CO2 make perfect breeding ground for these protists. Well at least they're easier to remove when on driftwood/rock. Gave my fingernail a workout yesterday removing those b*****ds - it was disgusting.

-P
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bensaf
 
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EditedEdited by bensaf
Well my main worry was that with algae already there that if the Co2 was off for a week it would flourish. I didn't know you're arrangement for while you were away and was assuming you'd switch the gas off.

As to the tank emptying - maybe a bit of oversight on your part ? When full the high pressure gauge will read about 900-1000psi. When the liquid Co2 in the tank is depleted this will start to drop and you are just left with gas in the tank. BUT you should get a week to two weeks between this and the tank totally emptying. I would have to assume that the pressure was already dropping before you went away but you hadn't noticed. I doubt there was a ytank dump when the pressure dropped as all the fish would be dead.

Anyhows, what to do now. You get the gas up and running and things back in line, while that should stop further algae growth it won't do much for the algae that's already there.

It will have to be removed. If it's too much to trim all it off. Then possibly a bleach dip on those plants you want to save. Not sure if Excel works on hair/thread algaes ? Not sure if a 3-day blackout would do it either. Maybe somebody will have some experience.

As for the Macrandra, well lets have a little pop quiz to see who has being paying attention in class

You've got a Reineckii that was wimpy and weak for a long time and is now big and bold. Macrandra has gone from a deep red to a very pale color.
What does that tell us ?

Use of test kits is not allowed

Simple observation only.

As for the BBA. Upi is close. It's not low Co2 per se. In a non injected tank not doing water changes is a way to control BBA by keeping the Co2 constantly low. Unstable Co2 is the main cause. Co2 rates going up and down (below the 30ppm level) will do it. Mulm is also a big factor in BBA as they are good at snatching carbonate from rotting matter. So the mulm and dirt trpped under and around wood and rocks may be a factor.


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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 04:17Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Red plant turning pale, Either lack of iron or too much Nitrate!

Did I get it right??

LF! Your alive and you went and had fun in the big tank! Nice picture BTW. How's the back? That thread algea is everywhere isn't it? I think I would freak if that happend to my tank. I think I had that in my tank for a little bit early on. I gave it about... well lets say probably way way too much excel and it turned red and went away. (is it posible to over dose excel?)

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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 05:29Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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BBA. the demonic hellgae.

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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 05:53Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Red plant turning pale, Either lack of iron or too much Nitrate!

Did I get it right??


You're close. But you are only looking at half the equation. The paleness of the Macrandra. How does that tie in with the improvement of the Reineckii ? Narrow it down.


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Ok I just did a little cheating and googled it.

I am going to add in lack of Micros and maybe not enough light (being shaded?)

http://www.tropica.dk/productcard_1.asp?id=032

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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 06:40Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Nah, you're getting further away now.

I'll wait for a few of the others to chime in before I give (what I feel to be) the answer.

There's an important lesson to be learned here. I'm always babbling about watching the plants, not the test kits.

That pic with the Reincekii and Macrandra tells me a lot about what's been going on the tank. It also, I'm pretty sure, giving a huge clue as to why the algae re-appeared.

But I'd prefer you guys to figure it out for yourself.




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Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
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EditedEdited by upikabu
Oh Mr. B, you're such a tease!

My guess (never having kept either plant) would be too high nitrate (too many espei ) coupled with low PO4 (hence the paleness). I heard high nitrate could stunt macaranda. Reineckii must like the high nitrate and can tolerate lower levels of PO4. But low PO4 = thread algae or high NO3 = thread algae? My guess would be the latter or combination of both.

-P
Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 09:22Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Ok no more teasing then !

I don't like the phrase "too much nitrate" or "too high nitrate", btw. It's relative.

The changes in the plants tell me that previously the N was too lean and the phosphate high (just high NOT too high). This may have been well and good for the Rotala but not so good for the others, as signified by the poorly Reineckii. Increasing nitrate suited the Reineckii and caused the Macrandra to lose color. It may be a little too rich for the Rotala if growth is now stunted or that could just be the effect of the lack of Co2.

Does this mean the N is now "too high" , well not IMO. The algae is testament to that. Remember the algae started before the Co2 ran out, that's just complicated matters. MAcrandra is picky. It's a great indicator for an aquarium but can be a PITA to keep happy. There's a choice to be made, keep conditions suitable for the Rotala and risk problems with everything else or run rich and risk the Rotala being unhappy? I know what I'd choose.

Pages back I said that staghorn was an indicator of low macros. The changes in these plants tell me that N was running too low for a long time. To me that indicates why the staghorn re-appeared.

So in summary N was too low and P was not a factor.

If the reineckii was stunting for lack of N then I'd be sure while the other plants weren't showing syptoms as clear cut they probably weren't growing 100% - they were being limited. Now that's a gap that will let algae in.

Remember it's not fast growth it's non-limiting growth.

That's what one pic and the difference in 2 plants tell me about what's going on.

Watch the plants, folks, trust them. Sod the test kits. Listen to what the plants are tellin' ye, put your pre-conceptions and assumptions aside. They'll tell the whole story.

And to quote one of my boys -don't micro manage your macros !!!!


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Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 15:48Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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And to quote one of my boys -don't micro manage your macros !!!!

Oh, go on, your making be blush.

One thing I don't see mentioned alot (unless I've missed it) is people increasing their ferts as the plant mass in their tanks mature. Just because you were dosing 1/2 tsp no3 when 2 months ago does't mean it's enough now with the density of plant mass increasing.

Believe me all is not bliss in my tank. I do have bba and I noticed my Rotala Wallichii is looking kinda pale and thin.

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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 18:15Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Welcome back LF! Could you post your really big tank pic in my I'm cold thread in the recovery room? We've had a ton of snow over the past few days, it's nice to see somewhere warmer for a change. It must have been nice to get away, but not nice to come back to that! My filter went off when I went away last year and that wasn't a good thing to come home to, then at Christmas I had everything ready in case it happened again and one of the barbs died and was floating when I got home, I have to show her where the nets are so she can take out dead fish! Which brings us to now, the tank is still looking great from a distance, all the fish were looking active as well, they seemed to weather your absence alright. I'm sure once you get the ferts and CO2 levels back to where they should be then everything will settle down again. I'm trying to figure out how to get rid of the stuff growing in my tanks, the only conclusion is more plants, more ferts and better light (for the 10) and more plants and more ferts for the 25. I've got BBA, staghorn, thread, BGA you name it it has reared it's ugly head in both tanks. From what bensaf has said I think my N and P are too low, my CO2 is probably too low, but out of my control, the only thing I have in good amounts in the tanks are micros, and light on the 25 is good, could be why the algae in that tank is there, the plants aren't using the light available. So UI'm asking here cause he won't come to my thread and share his sage advice, probably tired of my denseness.

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Man,

Coming back from vacation is no fun. All the work that piled up at my desk is still there .

As such I have only a few moments here and there to look into FP and maybe write an entry or two.

Bensaf - That's what I was going to answer for your pop quiz . Seriously, I figured it cannot be a lack of Iron as the Alternanthera would not be so read either. But, I have to say that the whole N / P think is still a little murky to me, although I understand what you are saying.

The Rotala started to do bad as soon as the last major replant happened. It never settled in anymore. It had been through many different tank params in the past as it was added to the tank at the get-go, so it successfully survived much greater imbalances (that for sure were there).

The Alternanthera has been in the tank just as long and never showed a sign of significant growth until the last major change. So it too has been through all kinds of mis-fertilization attempts.

tetratech - Although I hear your message about "increased mass requires increased ferts" as well, I have to say that my plant mass decreased during my last major change by about 50%

luvmykrib - I promise I will take a look at your log when I have a little more time . What did you do to the guys that you assume they don't want to create entries in there ?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 21:03Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
tetratech - Although I hear your message about "increased mass requires increased ferts" as well, I have to say that my plant mass decreased during my last major change by about 50%

Well I knew you were gonna say that, but weren't you experiencing thread and other algae problems prior to your extreme makeover. When your plant mass was at it's heaviest. Ingo not picking on you just creating discussions in general for myself to ponder as well.

I know you reduced alot of plant mass when you added the dw, but I'm not 100% sure that's the same as starting a tank with immature cuttings that have to be acclimated before they start taking up nutrients. Also does the biofilter simply take in nh3, if not then the bioflter grows bolder and hungrier as well as a sucker of nutrients. There are also cases I believe where the biofilter uses nitrate if the o2 content is low. Let's asume bensaf's right and the no3 ran low. It might have happened when the plant mass was at it's greatest (doesn't that start the process of algae coming in.) Things aren't instanteous or black and white.

Believe me the algae (algae genes, spores) are in the tank. They are knocking on the door constantly we just have to get damn good at never letting them in.

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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 21:56Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Ingo not picking on you


I know that tetratech, didn't mean to create the impression that I feel picked on, as I am not .

Well, one thing is for sure. I know now why you called me brave when I decided to pull through with the major overhaul, you must have foreseen the things that happened afterwards .

Whatever it is/was that caused this mess, let's hope we get it under control. I will get a new bottle of CO2 tonight and crank it up like a madman .

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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 22:42Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
I know that tetratech, didn't mean to create the impression that I feel picked on, as I am not

You didn't. I just wanted to make sure you weren't thinking that and I do understand the second language think so don't worry in the future as well.


Whatever it is/was that caused this mess, let's hope we get it under control. I will get a new bottle of CO2 tonight and crank it up like a madman


Almost makes you want to setup an experiment tank and try stuff. Could be in my future, but haven't been able to even get the cichlid thing going yet.

I might even bump my co2 up slightly. Think about it, your tank is about 40% bigger than mine we both used approx. the same amount of c02. Unfortunately it's not a clean comparsion because of all the other variables, but you have about 40% more water to diffuse the co2 into, you also have more light and more mass and you were dosing more ferts, so it stands to reason the plants need more co2 then mine. My fish were never gasping, but I do have BBA. So you might have been really under on the co2 unless your reactor was so much more efficient.

EDIT: My unprofessional advice, when you refill the cansister and start these increased co2 dosing, start off slowly and work your way up over a few days. "Small moves, Ellie, small moves"



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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 22:52Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Small moves, Ellie, small moves


CONTACT!

One of the most disappointing movie scenes ever, when she finally sees the alien. Why couldn't she fight it or something, or perhaps make the alien talk in backwards english like Yoda. Ah, I'm just rambling - I was a teenager when that came out, my list of priorities of things I wanted to see in movies was much different back then.

Aaaaanyway, as for LFs reactor - when i had that set-up I remember it being much less efficient than the glass diffusor. IME anyway. So it's possible LF, your CO2 may still be low.


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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 23:04Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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CONTACT!

Your good.
Loved the movie, but I could see why that would disappoint a teenager. Think about most space movies when they did show the alien, they probably would have been better off not showing them (Independence Day, Abyss, ET )



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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 23:21Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Loved the movie, but I could see why that would disappoint a teenager. Think about most space movies when they did show the alien, they probably would have been better off not showing them (Independence Day, Abyss, ET )


I loved it too, it's a Carl Sagan novel afterall, it's hard not to love his stuff if you look at it the right way.

You're right about being better off not showing the aliens in those movies. They did a good job for most of Abyss, then blew it at the end. And Independence day, don't get me started. I have a hard enough time believing Will Smith could punch out my sister, let alone a PO'd alien covered in armour. But alas, this is probably a topic for a different thread


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Post InfoPosted 13-Mar-2006 23:34Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech


But alas, this is probably a topic for a different thread

Not so fast nowher. I know you don't want to highjack LF's thread about fictional extraterrestrials, but I'm going to bridge our conversation about the algae/bacteria in our tanks and what we are up against. You don't think it's possible do you?

I don't know if you knew this but Carl Sagan once speculated that "microorganisims could be seeded in the clouds above Venus and would eventually make the planet habitable for higher forms of life by extracting water and carbon dioxide, breaking them down through photosynthesis and discharging oxygen into the atmosphere" This bacteria he spoke of
B-G-A

So algae/BGA is our friend

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Post InfoPosted 14-Mar-2006 00:30Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Only if we over populate the Earth and screw it up so bad we can't live here any more... stupid people here on Earth! Oh and it only takes about a year to get to Jupiter! So cut that way back to Venus.

Nice conection BTW! (did you make that up?)




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Post InfoPosted 14-Mar-2006 04:43Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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What

I have Aliens in my tank ?

I knew it, something this bad cannot be from this planet .

I love Science Fiction movies, but I don't have the brain to remember particular phrases. Best movie of this kind ever (because it was ground breaking): 2001 A Space Odyssey.

With regards to the tank: I hooked up the CO2 last night around 6PM and fired it up. I didn't see tetratech's suggestion about increasing it slowly over a few days until now. I actually think that the ph of the tank will fall slowly anyway as it will take some time to saturate the water. So, last night the CO2 was on for about 3 hours, that should not have made much of an impact except reminded the fish and plants of how it should be. Today I am letting it rumble and have full CO2 flow for the full day.

One observation I made, but I might be wrong with the "cause and reaction" relationship analysis: All my fish are swimming much lower in the tank when there was no CO2 added. Usually, most of my Espei occupy the upper realm of the tank to hang out, but in the last 2 days they all huddled just above most plants.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 14-Mar-2006 11:55Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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One observation I made, but I might be wrong with the "cause and reaction" relationship analysis: All my fish are swimming much lower in the tank when there was no CO2 added. Usually, most of my Espei occupy the upper realm of the tank to hang out, but in the last 2 days they all huddled just above most plants.



I made the exact same observation in my tank a few days ago, actually one page back I posted a pic. The harleys usually stay near the top, but one day they just started hovering right above the tenellus carpet, just staying in one formation.

Perhaps there are little aliens in our Jersey water that are bothing our fish/ plants...



Back in the saddle!
Post InfoPosted 14-Mar-2006 15:29Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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I have Aliens in my tank

That would be Chao's tank I believe
Speaking of Aliens, did Chaos get obducted by one?



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Post InfoPosted 14-Mar-2006 15:41Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Grrrr,

NowherMan6 - now you gave me another reason to worry, water from the tab.

I think to have observed that my fish came up some more once the CO2 was turned back on. I will make sure to sneak in tonight when I come home and check on them before they see me (as they come out as soon as they see me - for food).

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 14-Mar-2006 17:30Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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With higher co2 content in the water they may stay closer to the surface to pop up for a gulp of fresh air once in a while ?


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 15-Mar-2006 05:46Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Bensaf,

That was my thought as well. And sure enough, last night when I came home and sneaked downstairs I saw then half way up between the plants and the surface.

I checked on the CO2 and it was going at about 4bps. Unintentionally I followed tetratech's advice of slowly increasing the CO2 as 4bps are not a super sized load. I later crancked it up some more to "slow stream".

I have a question about "cleaning" plants in a Bleach Solution. I guess I should not remove all plant that I would like to save at once and rather stretch the cleaning process out to a few weeks. Some of my plants also don't like to be uprooted, like the Helferi and the crypts. What should I do with these? The bleach solution is 1 part bleach and 19 parts water, right?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 15-Mar-2006 12:27Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Well I can't think of a reason not to do them all at once. But I'd do it on water change day so you can clean up the mess from uprooting.

As for the Helferi it depends how bad the algae is. What would cause most long term harm to the plant - being covered in algae or being uprooted. As the guy on the ground you'll have to make that call.

I wouldn't do the crypts though - too melty. As new leaves grow in trim off the damaged ones.


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Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 15-Mar-2006 16:09Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks Bensaf,

I will inform the groud troops that they are in charge of their actions


Before I forget,

Today is actually a special day when it comes to my involvement in this hobby.

It is exactly one year ago that I set up my very first tank, the 29G. It was quite an exciting first year that so far has produced 3 tanks, including this monster here . Plus many new friends here at FP, thanks at this point to all the people who gave their input in one way or another.

So when compared to a marriage, I am no longer a newly-wed and will from now on be able to be held responsible for my actions .

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 15-Mar-2006 17:23Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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It is exactly one year ago that I set up my very first tank, the 29G

Does this mean the honeymoon is over and I could take off the gloves and really tell you what I think.

No, but really once you get past the 1st year and have had success like you have had I think your in it for life.

so have a cold dark one and enjoy

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Post InfoPosted 15-Mar-2006 17:42Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Congrates LF! You have done really well for yourself in a year.

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Post InfoPosted 15-Mar-2006 23:43Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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So that would explain why the romance is dead and why he doesn't listen anymore and takes me for granted

Well if you have to ask what the problem is there's no point me telling you.

BTW, do you know that doctors have discovered a new contraceptive ? Yeah, it's called wedding cake


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Post InfoPosted 16-Mar-2006 03:34Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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So that would explain why the romance is dead and why he doesn't listen anymore and takes me for granted

Yep, I think he's rebelling alittle, trying to make his own tracks through the planted tank jungle.

Marriage, contraceptive


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Post InfoPosted 16-Mar-2006 03:47Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Me - rebelling - nah

Now move over and listen to the ideas of the new tank-keeper generation

Ups, I guess I have nothing to say

In a more tank related issue I have news though:

I arranged with my LFS to give them around 30 Espei tonight for store credit. I don't get much, but it is a start and marks the first time that any of my efforts return some of the investment.

I intend to bag them in 2 bags, 15 each, and then to put the bags in a cooler to bring them there (10min drive). I guess that should be fine, right? Do you have a better idea?

So, while arranging that deal, I perused the store to see what kind of a treat I could get myself for the 1 year anniversary. And what can I say - I found a very nice treat (in my opinion). I put a hold on a pair of Apistogramma viejita II that the store received just 2 days ago. A treat it is, as they cost $80 as this species supposedly is stillrather rare in the trade. I did not see the couple hang out together in the tank, both were going their own ways, but they didn't show any aggression towards each other when their ways crossed either. I assume that the term "pair" in this case means a male and a female rather than a formed pair.

What do you think?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 16-Mar-2006 12:04Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thats a sweet fish! I can't imagin spending that much cash on a couple of fish but you are going to be getting some cash or SC so that will help matters. I think you are right about them being just a M+F not an actual pair. But who knows they may not like their environment right now but when you get them home to the super cool tank they might hook up.

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Post InfoPosted 16-Mar-2006 14:14Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Well, congrats on the esepi sale. Could be the start of something. Little_fish's little fish farm. Always nice to get something back and tell the wife

As for the Apistos:

Obviously very nice looking fish. Is that the actual fish your getting or is that a pic from somewhere else?

I would definitely let them stay in the store for a while if possible before moving, since you said they've only have them a few days.

When it comes to feeding time you might have to be more hands on. When I feed my bolivians I have to push away the schooling fish since they eat all the food before it reaches the lower levels where the rams are. I actually put some larger size food in a net and swish it to the bottom, same when I'm feeding worms, etc.




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Post InfoPosted 16-Mar-2006 14:24Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
DeletedPosted 16-Mar-2006 14:45
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Hi Ingo

It is exactly one year ago that I set up my very first tank
Congratulations. Now, I had you figured as someone who has been at this for years. You've certainly learned a lot in a short time, 'cause you're certainly full of good advice.

I love your new fish. Gee that's pricey though, it would be AU$108.65. Is that a picture of your actual fish in the store, or is it one from a profile. Just wondering, 'cause my bolivian rams do not look anywhere near as colourful as the picture in the profile found here. Maybe one day, in the distance future, when I've recovered from the cost of kids, tanks (C02 soon I hope), maybe if I save all my dollars up, I can get 2 of them. Hate to order them in to find they don't look like your pic - so that's why I ask.

Again, congratulations on 1 year of fish keeping. Lucky for all the newbies here that you picked this hobby.

Cheers
TW
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LITTLE_FISH
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Oh thanks everybody, in particular Robyn - that is a very nice compliment.

No, sadly the fish pictured is not the real one I am getting, I found the image when googeling the web. Put basically it looks like it.

Leaving the fish in the store may be a good idea tetratech, but I don't think it is really possible - for a few reasons:

- I am rather sure the store is not too wild about holding fish for someone as they like to refill that spot with fish that they can sell
- The tankmates seemed to be too pushy for the little girl and there is not much hiding space (one cave like structure)
- last but not least, some salesguy who might not be in the know and potentially doesn't care to read the label on the tank may sell them

So, they will come home to Daddy tonight (if not sold/dead/ill).

Good point about the food as well tetratech, just later this morning it dawned on me that I didn't know how and what to feed these guys. After doing some research it seems that mostly some live food is suggested, although one book mentioned that they also would be just fine with "quality" flake food. Tell me more about the worms you feed - do you raise them, buy them, defrost them, or what?

Thanks in advance,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 16-Mar-2006 15:47Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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LF congrats on the one year anniversary We all have you to blame for this Log madness (and Dr Bonke too)

Very nice apistos indeed. And that was a nice bit of luck with finding a rare kind. I would reccomend seeing if they'll breed, you have a possible goldmine on your hands I doubt an LFS would pass up an opportunity to sell fish that they could make a huge profit on

As for feeding, when I feed brine shrimp/ bloodworms they never make it to the bottom for my loaches. What I do is add some tank water to the brine shrimp/ worms, then suck that up in a turkey baster and let it drip out near the bottom. This way the bottom fish get first shot at it, and you can place it directly and not haphazzardly like I imagine would happen with a net. This is useful if the fish are shy at first and you need to spot feed them in their territory or in a cave section


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Post InfoPosted 16-Mar-2006 16:27Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Ingo,

That's one gorgeous Apisto, and congrats on the 1 year point. I'm almost ready to set up the planted tank that we've discussed briefly, I can only hope to have even a small amount of the success that you have had.

Jim



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LITTLE_FISH
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Jim,

I am sure that you will be at least as successful as I have been as you researched the topic at least as much as I did.

Actually, I hope you are better than me as I am still trying to figure out quite a few things here

Ingo


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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
NowherMan6,

Didn't see your entry, I guess I am getting old .

Question: do you feed live food or defrosted/freeze dried?

If the answer is live food then I would appreciate a short introduction. But I am afraid it includes the word refridgerator and I can already see someone kicking me out of the house.

Thanks,

Ingo


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NowherMan6
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If the answer is live food then I would appreciate a short introduction. But I am afraid it includes the word refridgerator and I can already see someone kicking me out of the house.


Pack your bags.

I feed them frozen, and I keep the food discreetly hidden in the freezer. But I've been wanting to try out the Omega One freeze dried line. Supposed to be pretty good. Their flake food is also supposed to be excellent, though my harlies aren't crazy about it. High quality.

Cultivating live food shouldn't be too hard, especially brine shrimp. A one gallon tank should do, I'm sure you can find instructions online.

If it's a wild caught pair you may need to go the extra mile in getting them to feed, they may not be as voratious as the espei


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Post InfoPosted 16-Mar-2006 17:01Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Thanks NowherMan6,

I will ask tonight if it is wild caught. Last thing I want is that the fishies starve to death. I have various freeze dried foods, from Blood Worms (which I find are rather big) over Daphnia (rather small) to San Francisco Bay Brand Brine Shrimp (is floating) and Hikari Tubifex Worms (floating).

Let's hope they like at least one of them.

Ingo


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When you go to the LFS find out what they have been feeding them. Always good info to know..

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Post InfoPosted 16-Mar-2006 18:19Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
Tell me more about the worms you feed - do you raise them, buy them, defrost them, or what?

I get the frozen cubes (usually san fran brand) I defrost them in a cup with tank water for 10 minutes then I dump out the cup over a net in the sink. I take some more tank water and dump it over the net again to get rid of the residue/bloodly liquid etc. so it doesn't go in the tank. Then I feed some of the school right away and then I go down to the bottom with the remaining worms and realize alittle where the rams hang. At this point the rams are really tame so they will go right into the net if I let them.

Sounds like the apistos are a done deal so good luck with them. I have a store way out east on the Island that stocks alot of them. I'll have to take a trip out there maybe this weekend and see what the deal is.

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Thanks for the detailed information, tetratech

Sounds like it would be a bit messy to feed frozen food. I sure hope that they like freeze dried as well.

Thanks again,

Ingo


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tetratech
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It's really not that bad. Doesn't freeze-dried float?
That would be harder for the apistos to get to since they stay on the bottom.

BTW - Yes, I do keep the worms in the frig. Actually one type of SF Brand is called "Fish Gum Drops". Nice way to say "Frozen Bugs"


EDIT: Makes a good case for getting a frig in the garage. Load it up with gum drops and black & tans.


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Doesn't freeze-dried float?


Yes, it does

I was hoping that soaking it for a while will make it sink, but now I remember that uneaten food tends to stay on top as well. Grrrrr

We don't have electricity in the Garage, maybe I could run a fridge on gasoline .

Ingo


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Wingsdlc
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well with the snow storm on its way you shouldn't have to worry about keeping them cold.

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Post InfoPosted 16-Mar-2006 22:51Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
luvmykrib
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I recently bought frozen MYSIS shrimp, they come in little cubes and you do the same thing as Tetra with them, I never thought to strain mine though, my guys love the 'gravy' the bloodworms make. No more bloodworms for mine though until I find some with a guarantee that there are no parasites. Freeze dried tubifex are just nasty and messy IMHO, they make such a mess in the tank and the fish get all bloated up after eating them, I thought my barbs would burst after just a few bites!

Do the rams always stay on the bottom? My krib is seen all over the tank and never misses coming to the top for feeding time.

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Post InfoPosted 16-Mar-2006 23:00Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Hey Ingo,

Looked up FP on Apistogramma viejita II. There's only one photo & it might the Apistogramma viejita, which text says is less colourful than Apistogramma viejita II. When you get yours, you should take a pic & put it in the profile here in FP.

I'm going to try the various feeding ideas for my rams, as I have trouble getting food to them & I didn't think of those ideas. Brilliant. The only thing I can get to them is algae wafers, as the other greedy fish don't let anything drop to the bottom.

Cheers
TW
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cynical
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EditedEdited by cynical
I have both rams and apistos and i feed freeze dried tubifex (aswell as frozen bloodworm and sinking pellets), they come in small cubes and what you do is push them hard against the glass and they stick there, so you can reach your arm in and put it down the bottum for your rams/apistos?

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luvmykrib
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I have tried that with the tubifex cubes and they don't stay stuck, it may be different with less voracious fish than my barbs and the krib, but I don't know, they barely touch it and it comes loose!

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Post InfoPosted 17-Mar-2006 01:11Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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I will catch up with the entries later, for now I have to go and add water to the bags

But here they are:

Attached Image:

Apistogramma viejita II Female



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And here is the boss, both are still bagged as you can see:

Attached Image:

Apistogramma viejita II Male



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LITTLE_FISH
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OK,

I have a few minutes between water additions now, so first of all for all the input and suggestions on feeding these little charms

I asked in the store how they feed their fish and they told me that during the week it is flakes and on Fridays it is frozen food. But he also showed me that the fish eat freeze dried food, he added some krill to the tank, into the current that pushes the water down from the HOB, and the Apistos ate their share. Nice

Now, a request to all of you: keep your fingers crossed for me that they are doing fine as the last time I got South American Cichlids they both died, it was a pair of German Rams (last fall).

Thanks again, I am sure quite a few more pictures will follow, but not today as it will be lights out soon for this tank.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 17-Mar-2006 03:25Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Simply beautiful fish and looks like a pair too


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Post InfoPosted 17-Mar-2006 03:30Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Gorgeous, LF. Look forward to seeing them get lost in your jungle


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Post InfoPosted 17-Mar-2006 03:57Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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BTW, a happy ST. Paddy's day to one and all

Won't be posting much today got an appointment with "a blonde in a black skirt" tetra should know what that is. He's agot a few blondes in black skirts in his fridge !


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
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NowherMan6
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Today? Oh yeah, where you are today is tomorrow.

Happy St. Paddy's Bensaf and others... and to LF's new apistos too.


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Post InfoPosted 17-Mar-2006 04:23Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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Sweet fish. I am sure that he will color up when he is not freaking out from trasport. Best wishes!

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Post InfoPosted 17-Mar-2006 07:34Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks to you all

What can I say, I already start to worry (what else is new). Pretty much as soon as I released them into the 20G I noticed that the resident Platies, even the younger ones, swim up to the new fish, from the side, and try to bite their pectoral fins, grrrrr. I hope they will get used to each other quickly before any major damage is done. I managed to take a few shots last night after release.

Here is the female. As you may see, her caudal fin is not in the best shape. Usually I wait these things out as eventually the fin will grow back, but usually my fish are also rather cheap. Anything I should do?

Attached Image:

Female



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LITTLE_FISH
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Here is a picture of the male, he pretty much colored up a little as soon as he was added to the tank.

Attached Image:

Male



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LITTLE_FISH
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Last but not least, here is a shot of the pair.

I hope they will take good care of each other.

Ingo

Ah, and yeah - happy St. Patricks Day from me too, to all the Irish folks out there

Attached Image:

Pair



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Post InfoPosted 17-Mar-2006 12:06Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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I like all the pics. Favourite is the one of the pair. He looks like he's puckering up for a kiss. Good luck with them, Ingo.

Cheers
TW
Post InfoPosted 17-Mar-2006 12:09Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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LF,

If you think it's just wear and tear on her tail fin, perhaps from nipping in the store tank etc., then melafix and/ or pimafix should do the trick. I don't think it would be tail rot yet, but that would warrant another treatment...


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Post InfoPosted 17-Mar-2006 13:33Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
LF,
Great find What's next a pair of zebra plecs!

They are already quite beautiful and they should get even more colorful. I don't know, but somehow I think frozen bloodworms, would help with color more than freeze-dried but I could be wrong.

As I mentioned I am looking for a pair as well, so let the Apisto Wars begin.

You are such an animal!

BTW: Found this on a website

"Three color forms of Apistogramma viejita are known. Color form 1 is from Puerto Gaitan, Colombia, 2 from Rio Muco and Rio Guarrojo, Colombia, and the third from tributaries to the Rio Manacacias between Santa Rita and Bengale, also Colombia. The fish have also been described from Venezuela."




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Post InfoPosted 17-Mar-2006 15:06Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks for the input,

Yeah tetratech, I found that info during the day yesterday as well. I am pretty sure that mine actually are the viejita II as the coloration is pretty much on target. There is supposedly another Apisto that looks very similar, I think the difference are the blue lips (or something).

I will keep an eye on the fins to evaluate rotting or "normal" wear and tear from shipping etc.

Also, I am still concerned about the nipping of the fins from the Platies. If I find any loss of pectoral fin pieces then the Platies will be moved tonight into the 29G. Might be a little tight in there then, but they asked for it

Ingo


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Oh,

With all this excitement over my new fish I forgot to tell the story of the Espei.

After getting the QT ready with a water change I started to go after the Espei. I readied a larger ziplock bag, removed the three glass lids, filled the bag with 3 cups of tank water, and the hunt was on.

1 hour and 15 min later I caught either 27 or 28 of the juveniles. Most were of younger age, not tiny though, as the older ones are already too fast and smart to be caught be the old guy. I then realized that the ziplock bag is not easily put down as the bottom corners could fold up and kill any fish that may be stuck in it. With the help of the wife I poured them into an old LFS bag that I wisely saved (or forgot to throw out ).

Then I packed the whole bag in 3 towels and in a cooler box, just to be on the save side. 10 min later I was in the store and the sales person in charge seemed to be rather satisfied with my fishies. Actually, I expected this as the shipments from Asia usually produce skinny, small, and pale Espei. He filled my fishies in a clean bucket and it was time to say good-by to them .

So - to anyone who reads this entry and plans to purchase my Espei, take good care of them, will ya?

I can tell already that the big tank looks emptier with about 30% of the fish population gone.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 17-Mar-2006 18:17Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
SheKoi
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EditedEdited by shekoi
LF what did you get for your fish? if anything.

i know how hard it is to remove fish, that you have feed and grown, in your case bred.

i decided to exchange my RTS at the weekend, he had become far to aggressive, chasing every fish in the tank apart from the angel, i got 6 bags of live food in exchange!

How are your rainbows doing? any sign of breeding yet?

i'm hoping to get a couple male rainbows this weekend!

Congrats on the dwarfs, they look great, i got a male cockatoo, last weekend, still trying to find female. is it your intendtion to add them into the 125G, might be hard to see them once they are in.

Karl.

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Karl,

The deal was basically $1 per Espei (they sell them for $4) of store credit, but because I told them there are either 27 or 28 (and counting them is hard) and because I believe they were rather happy with the condition of the fish, I received $30.

This credit, and quite some additional cash, was used up just a few minutes later alread when I got the Apistos.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 17-Mar-2006 18:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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some reason I think the population will come back. Probably not as fast being you have the rainbows in there now but it will come back.

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Post InfoPosted 17-Mar-2006 18:37Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Yeah Wings, there is a good chance that this will happen. As I still see the occasional very young fish peeking out from the denser growth areas.

Karl - forgot to answer your question about the Rainbows. The are doing just fine (all 6), but I don't see any mating going on. If I am not mistaken then they are egg scatterers and their offspring need quite some time to develop into larger fish (that are not easily eaten anymore). If they had babies then they all became food.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 17-Mar-2006 18:41Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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So let me get this straight:

- Two espei $8
- Two Double Red Apisto Agassizi $20
- Bensaf saying your Apisto Viejita are simply beautiful on St. Patrick's Day - Priceless!



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Post InfoPosted 17-Mar-2006 18:47Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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That is so true tetratech

I wish he would say similar things about my planting

Ingo


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"a blonde in a black skirt"

Oh yeah

Don't expect much today. I expect him to resurface in about a week.

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Quick update on the Apisto:

So far so good
They were both still alive when I came home and I did not witness any aggression from the Platies towards them.

I decided to feed them and shoved small dosaged of flake food below the water surface so it would sink. And es, we got some eaters . Also, I addedd some freeze dried tubifex worms and they ate the ones that sank (pushed them down a little) AND from the surface, excellent.

After a good meal, the male Apisto showed the Platies who is boss in the tank and chased them around a little. Revenge for their picking yesterday

But I have a new question

In all this fish madness I almost completely forgot that I am getting a small plant order and today it came in. 5 Anubias Nana Petite (just for the fun of it) and 3 (actually got 4 for some reason) Anubias Congensis. Now I know that Anubias are having their rhizome exposed, and I assume that this is the case for all of them. But just to make sure: the Congensis as well? I have pretty much no smaller roots on the rhyzome so I guess that would mean that I have to tie them to something. Also - they get pretty tall, right (18 inches) ?

Here is the new plant order:

Attached Image:

New Plants



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Post InfoPosted 18-Mar-2006 01:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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And here is a close-up of two Congensis rhizomes. For the time being I just wedged them in some spots in the tank, for sure not the final position though (front of tank).

Attached Image:

No Roots?



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Post InfoPosted 18-Mar-2006 01:39Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
luvmykrib
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My guess would be that they need the rhizome exposed, also they've probably been trimmed for shipping and will grow new roots quickly, so if you tie them or wedge them in they should have new roots befroe you know it!

Glad to hear the apistos are doing good, I kind of thought they would come up for food, being cichlids they could be greedy little attention seekers, my krib does tricks when she wants to be fed, shows off all over the place. They will colour up nicely as they settle in and when they finally go into the 125 just wait to see their colours explode! Frozen food being as close to live as I have gotten seems to induce mating frenzy in my fish, even the krib, she turns more purple after a good frozen food feast.

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luvmykrib,

So you have your krib in the planted tank? Doesn't make a mess of things? If i can't get my hands on Cockatoo then I might have to do kribs. They have been starting to color up at work and look pretty nice.

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She only tears into the plants once in a while, and has never done any real damage to them. I keep her slightly underfed as I do for the rest of the fish. They are really beautiful fish once they colour up in the home tank. If I could I'd get her a mate, right now I just have the barbs (5) and danios (3) and 1 SAE with her, still I worry that a pair would kill the other fish, maybe in a bigger tank it would be fine. I'll have new pictures tonight and I'll try and get a good one of her.

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Post InfoPosted 18-Mar-2006 02:50Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Don't expect much today. I expect him to resurface in about a week.


No here I am. Saturday morning back in work - busy.

I needed a beer yesterday one those strange "what the hell am I doing here days".

I did a tour of the factory yesterday. Down at the warehouse there is a cement drainage ditch going around the perimeter of the building. This ditch is no more then c foot wide and deep. There's been heavy rain lately so it had no maore then 2 inches of water. As I walked by something caught my eye. This little drainage ditch was swarming with fish , hundreds of them poking about in the soating of mud at the bottom. About an inch. Couldn't make out what they were but looked Rasbora like. Then I noticed there were a lot of crabs up to a couple of inches wide (I didn't even know there were freshwater crabs !) and what's known locally as "bulot", which are like small eels or birchirs. I only know thenm as they make great eating when deepi fried . I don't know of any big body of water nearby, how the hell all this life got in drainage ditch I don't know. It's a very lush country.

Even weirder then that was the next episode. I had my delivery supervisor come to me with a manpower requisition. Wanted to hire a new truck driver. I asked why he need a new driver, and he said the usual guy was sick. Of course I asked why can't we wait for him to come to work.....the conversation in Indonesian went something like this.

Him: "He'll be out for a month, Pak"
Me: "Oh, it must be serious, what's wrong with him ?"
Him: "He's possessed by the devil, Pak"
Me: "Uuuhhhhhhhh ??????"
Him: " Ya, Pak, he was going home from work last night and a demon entered his body"
Me: "You're taking the mickey right ?"
Him: " No Pak, the excorcist says he needs to stay indoors for a month, he can't drive anyway Pak, he keeps twitching"
Me " Well if his head turns 360o he won't need the rearview mirror "
Him: " Sorry Pak, don't understand"
Me: " Are you really asking me to hire somebody else because one of our guys is suffering from demonic possession ?"
Him: "Yes, Pak, why is there is a problem?"

This went on for a another 20 minutes or so, as I tried to explain to the guy why I couldn't give someone a month off because they thought they were in the clutches of a menevolent spirit.......

Really, I sometimes wonder how the hell I ended up here. It's not like they even have draft Guinness.Only the cans.



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Post InfoPosted 18-Mar-2006 04:39Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
luvmykrib
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take breath



I need a kleenex, that brought tears to my eyes and made my belly hurt, if I had a job I'd try that excuse. Sometimes I think the kids are demonic spirits sent here to torture and torment me!

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Post InfoPosted 18-Mar-2006 04:57Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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The really funny thing is that you tryed to have fun with it and the guy didn't have a clue. Talk about culture shock. How long have you been there? Still have to be weird.

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I have read in various reports that in tropical climates fish and other critters can be found in even the smallest ditch. Come to think of it, I also don't recall an explanation on how these animals get there

And I hear you on the troubles with understanding / accepting local customs in a foreign country. Just yesterday I saw thousands of people dressed in green, wearing funny hats, and being drunk, at Noon. I couldn't even get lunch for an hour as the Irish Pub was jammed with youngsters (I would say minors) drinking beer. I have no idea what demon caused them to do that .

Bensaf, I think we have the biggest St. Patrick's Day parade of the world here, they expected 2 million people along the route through Midtown Manhattan. You may have liked it

About the Congensis: I guess we are in sink that the Rhizome cannot be buried, right?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 18-Mar-2006 12:52Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Bensaf


It's not like they even have draft Guinness.Only the cans.

You poor pup!

Look I have enough trouble conversing with the older generation just to buy co2 gas for a planted aquarium - Did you ever?

My Scapes
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I couldn't even get lunch for an hour as the Irish Pub was jammed with youngsters (I would say minors) drinking beer


I just want to say, I noticed the exact same thing. I couldn't go out for my lunch walk yesterday because of that parade. WHile walking down one strett there were tons of kids - 14-17 year old kids - drunk, getting sick, getting arrested by cops. I couldn't believe it, where did they drink all this? How did they get served? And why aren't they in school?


Back in the saddle!
Post InfoPosted 18-Mar-2006 15:17Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Isn't it cute how kids can get away with such things? Yay for good parents!

About the Congensis: I guess we are in sink that the Rhizome cannot be buried, right?

OH yeah i wouldn't. Best bet now it to tie them down to something and let the roots grow. Once you have roots then you can plant them.

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Post InfoPosted 18-Mar-2006 15:23Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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BTW, legal beer drinking age in Germany is 16.

We learn to handle drinking first and only then are allowed to drive a car (18).

Also, hard liquor legal drinking age is 18.

Wings, thanks for the info on the Congensis .

I guess today I will be busy with at least some bleaching and planting.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 18-Mar-2006 15:35Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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Do you bleach all your new plants?

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Post InfoPosted 18-Mar-2006 16:23Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Wings,

That has nothing to do with the new plants. It is or the ones in the tank that are covered in thread algae.

The new plants will not be bleached as I don't want to stress them for no reason.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 18-Mar-2006 16:41Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
luvmykrib
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Could you detail how the bleaching goes, I'm thinking I need to bleach mine when I do the major over-haul. No sense putting nasties in with the new look!

I remember my little stint across Europe when I was 17, the legal age in Dover, England was 14, in Switzerland it was 16 I think, same in Austria and most of the rest of Europe, do I remember much else? Nope, just a lot of Beer and wine in different countries, what a trip! Oh yeah I think we saw some castles and churches, whatever. Ordering beer in the afternoon in German and drinking it out in the open was a big deal for me then. Now I can barely remember any German, and what I do remember is naughty thus not for polite conversation.

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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 00:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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luvmykrib - I don't know how it is done, maybe someone else should explain it. I trie it today with the result that the threads are now white (dying? ) and I am so worried that my Otos will die.

I am sorry, I am having a moral tank low

I again slaved 7 hours over this tank. I am more in the mood of trashing that planting thing than ever.

Not many words will follow today, just an opera in 6 acts.

Act 1

Attached Image:

Act 1 - Overture to Disaster



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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 01:37Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Act 2

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Act 2 - Let the Slaughter Begin



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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 01:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Act 3

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Act 3 - More Soldiers are Falling



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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 01:39Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Act 4

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Act 4 - The Bloodied Battlefield



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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 01:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Act 5

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Act 5 - Prepare to Surrender



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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 01:41Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Act 6 - Final Act

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Act 6 - Unconditional Surrender



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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 01:42Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Opera Cliff Notes

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Summary Before - After



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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 01:54Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
luvmykrib
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WOW! Major change Ingo! I liked the jungle before and the new look looks good too! Hope you recover enough to tell us more about how it went, from your earlier post it didn't sound like it went all that well. Aren't you risking another algae outbreak with the smaller plant load?
How can you tell with the otos how they are doing? Mine showed no symptoms other than clamped fins until I found them dead, in the 10g I have clamped otos that have continued to live while I lost panda cories. They really didn't give me any warning as to their health.

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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 02:19Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Funny...it looks good no matter how you rearrange it.
Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 02:19Profile AIM MSN PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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I am not really sure which one I like better. I think there are things about both that I like and dislike but I can't really point them out for some reason. Maybe its because it took me an hour to close the store tonight... people just wouldn't leave!

I guess one thing I really like is the tall grassy stuff in the front. I think that looks sharpe! Other than that I don't know either way. What are your plans for a forground plant? Sag? Going to keep things simple this time?

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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 05:43Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
bcwcat22
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I definatly like the second one better though I am unsure about that red plant on the far right. Great looking tank though!

Plz stop shaming my algae ridden tanks

"A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man" Simpsons
Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 05:55Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Gang,

Thanks for the input. I really was tired yesterday, and agitated, to say the least. I did not plan to spend another 7 hours on the tank. But once I started to weed out heavily invested plants one step led to the next and before I knew it the tank was pretty much empty again. I thought that I will use this chance to replant/reorganize the plant groups, as the previous layout could not be recreated because so many plants "had to go".

I will break down the tank sections into 4 parts and explain what went on in my mind and in the process of creating them.

Section A - Anubias Farm

First of all, based on previous suggestions, I decided to group the Anubias together. That in itself is a great idea, the leaf forest will serve as a great base for Espei breeding. So, I placed all anubias on a tray and started to trim off old leaves and in most cases also to divide the plants into 2 as the rhizomes where long enough to do so.
I removed the Anubias first from the tank (not knowing how long this all will take) and hours later, when it was time to put them back in, I checked on them for the first time since trimming.
I was in shock, half the leaves were rolled up and appeared totally dried out and dead. Later, after a while in the tank, most seemed to have recovered though. I tied the Congensis to a rock and placed that one close to the Star Grass as a seperator. Also, the tiny Nana Petites are tied to a small rock.
In addition, I added all my crypt types into this section. The Bacopa is there a a filler, it doesn't fit in but I need fast growers to re-establish the tank.

Attached Image:

Section A



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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 13:42Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Section B - Main Group

This one was the the easy part, at least concerning the Star Grass as I was happy with it's placement. All plants in front of it were removed and I had to figure out what could go in their place. For one thing, I was able to remove the large rock that holds down the wood and replace it with a smaller one. The fern on the wood didn't look all that good in the leftmost position, so I placed it in the crack between wood and rock. That pretty much left me only with the Cyperus Helferi as a plant in front of the Star Grass.
Probably because it took so long for it to grow I simply could not let go of the Helferi. It got a 10 min bleach bath (19 water, 1 bleach) followed by rinsing and storing for hours in clean water (only a few other plants recieved leach baths, they were only dunked in bleach solution and then rinsed off).
Only after adding them back to the tank did I realize that the fuzz is still on them, but I was running out of time. The threads are white or gray and I am afraid that they still contain enough bleach to sicken anyone who may nibble at them.
The overall problem I have with this group is that it is too green. The leaf shape varies, that is good, but all are the same color.

Attached Image:

Section B



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Section C - The Valley

For this section I had a clear vision, Pearl Grass all the way from the back to the wood, in a sloping fashion. This was an idea that I had going for quite a while, I even suggested a similar approach to upikabu at some point.

Well, I did it and the problem I see now is that I don't get any depth perception of the slope. It looks flat. Maybe if I grow it even further to the front (really low there) then it may work better.

Attached Image:

Section C



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Section D - What is that?

This section is truely bad and a shame for this tank. I pretty much ended up there with all plants that I don't want to dispose off but couldn't fit in anywhere else.

The Red Rubin Sword was bleach bathed and heavily trimmed, the Alternanthera got a bleach bath too. I need to maintain the Ludwigia as a fast grower, maybe if it gets fuller and taller it will look nice there, don't know yet.

So basically, it is a mess.

And this is why I am not happy. You work so hard on this and the rewards are mixed, at best. It made me feel like I just don't have a good enough vision on how to plant a tank nicely.

Attached Image:

Section D



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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 14:00Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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LF,

Don't let your tank get you down. Its still a work in progress and its cool that you have the guts to try new stuff with your tank. Most of us don't want to don't want to change anything with our tanks. Myself I am dreading to my algae issues on my giant hygro. I guess the moral of the story is that things change, you change your mind and you can always change it again. Get on with it!

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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 15:16Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Ingo, your tank looks great. You are too self critical - but then, most of us are.
Most of us don't want to don't want to change anything with our tanks
Wings is right, you always seem so keen get stuck in & try things in your tank, when others hold back. Sometime ago, you suggested I ask the planted tank gang in a thread, with a pic of my tank, for help to make it look better. Because I don't have the energy at the moment to rearrange, I havn't done that - I have held back. You wouldn't do that - you'd be in it straight away. (I want to sort out my C02 one way or the other first - then I come & ask for help). But you, you'd jump straight in. Good job on the replant. But then, it looked good to me before too.

Cheers
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EditedEdited by tetratech


Not quite sure I know where to start. I liked the tank after you added the wood, but I understand the mass wasn't there to continue.

I think right now you have to fiqure out how not to get into this situation again so the plants get destroyed.

Light, Biofilter, Fish Load, Plant Mass, C02, Nutrients
We need to find out the problem and then move on to the scaping.

My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 16:30Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Where the heck did you get the idea to give a 10 minute bleach bath ? 2 minutes will do it.

Don't worry about the white stuff it's dead algae. Won't harm anyone the fish will make a snack out of it.

Stop worrying full stop. This is supposed to be fun !!!!!

DO NOT DO ANOTHER MAJOR OVERHAUL LIKE THIS FOR A WHILE.iT'S UNSETTLING.

Ok. cap lock off.

Where did you get that much pearlgrass?

You're being hard on your self. A 125 gal is no easy job to scape.
You are on the right track big groupings of a few species is the way to go.The Anubias was a good idea to put together.

Again all that's needed is a big bunch of something dramatic Aromatica type plant.Behind the peargrass would be perfect. Fill out the front left with more crypts -plain old wendtii will do. Behind that some kind of filler like Cambomba to give some lightness. Then fill out the right side with something like Wisteria. I'm keeping to simple cheap easy to find plants to promote some stability. Around the wood and rock fill out with Wendelov Fern or NArrow leaf or more Anubias.

Keep the dosing routine simple and steady. Don't waver.

Fill out the plants as outlined above, keep the dosing steady, sit back and watch for a few weeks. Patience is key, it can take weeks for plants to fill out the way we want them to. Let them fill out with cheapies and fast growers so you can a feel for a full look and shaping. Play with shape of these til you settle on a look you like.

BTW those plants you got a few weeks ago you thought were Anubias - how they doing?



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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 17:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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All - Thank you so much for the encouragement and constructive critzism, I appreciate it.

Yeah, I know that THE most important thing now is balance. I think one problem I created recently was letting the P drop too low (I know, I know, you told me so). I lost all Duckweed, none left, zip, nada, I take it as an indicator for a lack of P as it likes P (and high N).

Bensaf, as sad as it is, I kind of enjoy worrying, that's my nature . It keeps my mind busy and the job intereting. I am almost afraid that just sitting back won't cut it for me.

This doesn't mean you guys should stop helping me out when I am in dispair, please.

That much Pearl Grass? I even through some out. I will post a picture below, just before the current one (weekly update), that shows the tank front full of it all over the place.

I like the Anubias group idea as well, I just don't know if its execution was performed all that well. The "suspicious" Anubias from a few weeks back are still there and they are getting new leaves. I now assume they are Congensis as they look a lot like the ones I just got.

Filler plants for the time being: Good idea, I will just have to get them and find the time to put them in. We will see. I for sure will keep my dosing of ferts up, no reduction.

The front left contains Crypts, as you will see in a close-up shorly. So, on to the main topic.


Weekly tank update - Week 25

Almost all details have been discussed above, but here is a quick summary: Coming back from vacation I noticed that my CO2 ran out. This enhanced an already existing Thread algae problem and the week was used to discuss a possible cleaning/replanting effort. This has been done yesterday and the results, from a visual perspective, are mixed (you be the judge).

The postive highlight of the week was the trade in of 30 Espei as part of a payment for a pair of Apistogrammas. I love them and so far they are doing well in the QT.

Here are some pictures:

First the tank the week before the first major overhaul, in week 18. It was pretty jungle like and the overhaul was needed to retrofit the tankwith wood and to avoid overgrowing.

Attached Image:

Week 18



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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 18:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Now here is a picture of the tank from last weekend, week 24. As you can see (Bensaf), there are loads of Pear Grass growing all over the front of the tank.

They all come from one small batch that I purchased when I set up the tank 25 weeks ago. This plant is versatile, easy to replant, easy to divide, grows partially shaded, in summary a plant that I would recommed any time.

I find that this layout / growth did not give the tank any depth.

Attached Image:

Week 24



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Now, the tank as of today - week 25

It looks much emptier, partially of course because I removed dying or bad growing plants like most of the Crypt Retrospiralis and Sags / Dwarf Swords. The plant arrangements are not really what I would like to maintain in the long run, but sentimental reasons (Helferi, for example) and fast growers (Bacopa, for example) led to this arrangement.

BTW: I counted 5 Otos this morning, so I take it they are doing fine.

Attached Image:

Week 25 - today



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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 18:46Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Here is a close-up of the Anubias group:

The Nana and Barteri form the center, the Congensis on the right back and the maybe Congensis almost hidden on the left back. The small rock with the Nana Petite is in the front of the main group, flanked by Crypt Lucens and Lutea.

In itself this would for sure make a nice tank, like a 29G. I just don't know how it looks in conjunction with my other plants.

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Anubias Farm



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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 18:52Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Now here is a close-up of the green and red Crypt Wendtiis. I collected them from all over the tank, at least what was left of them, and placed them in one big group, rather close to each other to encourage growth (I think Wings suggested this at some point).

We will see how they are doing there, but traditionally I am not too successful with Wendtiis as they usually have one leaf melting for each new one in all of my 3 tanks.

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Wendtii Farm



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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 18:55Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Here is a close-up of two surviving Glosso stems. They made it all the way through the 2 major overhauls. This time though I actually removed them from the tank before vacuuming to make sure that they will survive.

I don't know what I will do with them once they should decide to take off again. I somehow like the open foreground. Maybe the next fish to get should be a school of Cories, I will have to think about it.

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Glosso



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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 18:57Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Now here is an interesting observation, maybe you have a similar experiece. The Rainbows and the Pearls like to "hang out" together, I would almost go as far as to say that they are schooling together.

This is in particular obvious since my rather brutal netting of the Espei in last weeks trade-in. Before that it seemed to mostly happen before feeding time.

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Pearl and Rainbow Gang



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Now, this week cannot be complete without showing the Apistos again

They are truely lovely fish and I can only recommend them. It would break my heart if they would not make it in my tank(s). The initial aggression of the Platies towards them has stopped, the male is now clearly the boss in the tank.

Here is the female.She spends most of the time perusing the tank and nipping on plants and gravel. I don't know if she is going for small snails or plant matter. When she feeds on the surface it makes a clicking sound. Beautiful to watch.

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Female



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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 19:08Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
And here is the male. He spends all day patrolling the tank and chasing the Platies, in particular after feeding when all the food is eaten. I wonder why he does that? I think he has colored-up even more and he for sure is nice to observe.

Both male and female are true stalkers. They swim up to something (like moss or gravel) hover for a second or two in front of it, and then they go in for the kill (or whatever they do there), really fast. The same can be said for their routine of surface feeding. They hover just below the surface, eye the food, and then shoot forward to catch it (with a click). Even without reading about it I can say that in nature they eat flies etc. that fall in the water.

Isn't he beautiful?

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Male



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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 19:13Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Gorgeous LF. Really gorgeous. Have you considered using your 20 or 29g as a breeding tank. Might be kinda fun?



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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 19:43Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks tetratech

I first want to make sure that they make it though QT. My Rams also looked fine for a while, and then they died .

And if you don't tell my wife, maybe a commited 10G for breeding (at some point) might be appropriate. What I know so far is that there is quite some time invoved in growing out the fry. Also, it is virtually impossible to identify males and females for a long time. This would mean that you have to keep as many fry as you can to assure possible pairs later on.

So overall this would be quite a challenge.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 20:14Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
luvmykrib
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Thay are absolutely beautiful! I love the way he flares his spines in the pic of the male. Their behavior is typical cichlid hunting behavior I think as my krib does the same things. It's a delight to watch her picking around the tank. I love it when she jumps out from behind the main driftwood and lunges at one of the other residents, they flee madly away from her and she looks so smug, it's like she's playing a game only she can understand. They may eat bits of the plants but not destroy them. I feed algae flakes every now and then, it is good for the digestion. Most cichlids are omnivorous opportunity feeders. They are truly magnificent Ingo, I really hope they make into their final home with no issues, once there they will quickly become the rulers of their territory I'm sure.

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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 20:47Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I so have to get my hands on a couple Apistos. I was talking to my boss about it the other day and he said that I am better off trying to get them through the local club rather than him. He also said that they are hardier than Rams. I said cool man! Although I really do like rams too... I guess I will have to set up another tank sometime or change a tank over. I can see some problems occoring later on when I am married...

Oh my boss has gone on colecting trips to SA for discus because he used to breed them. I guess I will have to trust him on this one.

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Post InfoPosted 19-Mar-2006 21:39Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
There is one more thing I would like to share about the Apistos, especially the female. I swear I didn't tinker with the camera settings and the lens is reflecting what I see in the tank.

I had a feeling this morning that she is coloring up and then I checked again this afternoon. She is getting yellow, which - in terms of Apistogramma viejita - means she is getting ready. Wow, that would be almost too fast .

But see for yourself and let me know if I am fooling myself. First sequence is from the evening I got them, so 3 days ago. The middle one is from around 10:30 AM today and the other one is from a few minutes ago, so 7 hours later.

EDIT: It also appears as if the middle part of her caudal fin is growing back in already, nice.

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Do I see Yellow?



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Post InfoPosted 20-Mar-2006 00:33Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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I see yellow!

Therefore you should come see my tank!

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Post InfoPosted 20-Mar-2006 01:26Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Not quite egg guarding colors, but getting yellower nonetheless. You'll know when she's getting feisty. Lovely couple LF, good luck with them. Breeding them in your water would be difficult though, I think it's a little hard? Acid Rain told me that the eggs harden if the the water isn't soft enough. A 50/50 RO/Tap combo would probably do the trick. I love apistos and other dwarf cichlids(look around at some nannacara sp.), they make up for their size with outstanding colors.

Can't believe you completely made over the tank again. This is the 4-5th time? Those plants must get tired of moving, I know I would. Looks nice every time, don't let any nitpickers tell you different.



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Post InfoPosted 20-Mar-2006 02:45Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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Matty,

Thanks for the input

Yeah, I am getting tired of these major overhauls as well, although I think it is only the second time around that I removed almost all my plants at once.

I think I have actually very soft water, the one time I checked my GH I got a reading of 1dH (same as my tab KH), that is why I add the Seachem Equilibrium after each water change. So maybe there is egg hope in the future, although I am certainly not in a rush with anything. All I really want them to do is to survive happily

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 20-Mar-2006 03:13Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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No phosphates ? You killed Duckweed, a plant that could survive a nuclear holocaust ? Where was all the "I have got a lot of P in my tap" nonsense we've been listening to for the last 65 pages ????

Fine if you enjoy worrying just don't pull your hair out over it....ooopppps, too late

I have to agree the "execution" of the ANubias planting is not the best. Too flat. Get some rocks and tie/rubber band the Anubias on to crate some shape and a bit of mound. Or a bit of rock pile and use the Anubias to fill in cracks etc. You got fill that area with a real nice feature that would be almost maintenance free. It would make a nice playground for the Apisto's too

I know you have crypts on the left but add more don't wait for the existing ones to fill in. More, more. hat and the Anubias structure would fill out that side of the tank real nice. Very little work to keep looking good.

Those Apisto's have something in common with me - they get better looking with age

The after feeding aggression is normal for lots of fishes. After the initial feeding frenzy is over it's time to collect the scraps, lot's a fish will suddenly get territorial and chase away others to give itself a better chance of getting the scraps before anyone else.

They poke around the plants looking for things like snail eggs , hydra and other little micro-organisms. Great to watch.


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Post InfoPosted 20-Mar-2006 04:35Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Fine if you enjoy worrying just don't pull your hair out over it....ooopppps, too late



Yeah, the loss of Duckweed is a miracle to me. Having kept up my dosing of N even with reduced plant mass, and having more fish (by growth, not number) should mean that N was not a factor. The only nutrient I tinkered with was P and I am rather certain that I did not let that one bottom out but more likely had it between 1 and 2ppm. But given that nothing else changed, that must have been it. Or - I see the Rainbows and Pearls occasionally nibbling on it and during my last overhaul about 5 weeks ago I did reduce the amount of duckweed so that only a handful remained. Maybe, just maybe, the fish ate more than the growth rate of the plant.

I will create a picture of an Anubias mount on the left of the tank later, and then talk about issues I could see with it.

Thanks for the info on the "after feeding" aggression and the poking .

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 20-Mar-2006 12:23Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Tainted Glory
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Wouldn't you know it...I went to work on Sunday and found a tankfull of awesome Rasboras. I took a bunch home. Gotta love how that works! Fish are awesome man, Tom hasn't shut up about them yet! Tank looks good too. Good call on the Apistos.
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Wingsdlc
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Its fun bringing fish home from Local breeders. Tonight I just brought home a BN from this guy that is older than dirts tank. He is thinking of pulling the female because he still has way too many of them in his 90G. I think he brought in about 100 of them and he said he has more where that came from....... Nice healthy fish though.

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Post InfoPosted 21-Mar-2006 01:51Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Tainted Glory,

So you got some of my Espei, great . How many did you get? Glad to hear that Tom likes my fishies, I guess they sell pretty good then (if not snatched up by all the employees first).

Now you take good care of them as I had a rather hard time letting them go . And give me some updates on them once in a while, will you?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 21-Mar-2006 12:47Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Gang,

I would need all your brain power to help me on the Anubias Mount idea that Bensaf just recently mentioned. It makes perfect sense to me to have the Anubias in that arrangement, but I have quite a few issues with the actual implementation.

The picture below shows a rough sketch of two possible layouts, yellow indicates an independent mount that has its own center, orange starts off low on the left and continually rises to the right to attach to the main Star Grass group. Here are a few thoughts:

- The main issue I believe is the water flow in the tank. The spray bar is on the top left side (horizontally) and the intake sits also on the left side at the back bottom. I am concerned that a mount right in front of the intake would create a rather strong current in that area. I also could see that such a layout would cut off the right side from the water flow completely.
- If this group should become a favorite hangout for Espei (perfect for eggs on the underside of the big Anubias leaves) and Apistos then wouldn't a strong current suck all the fry into the intake?
- Keeping the overall structure in mind, would that create a nice horizon (light blue) for the whole length?

What are your ideas?

Ingo

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Some Options



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Post InfoPosted 21-Mar-2006 19:50Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
luvmykrib
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Ingo after all the work you just did on the tank, are you sure you're ready to mess with the structure more? If so here's my idea for making the retreat for fry safe from the intake and keeping a nice horizon.
Here
It's in very bright colours but I think it's straight forward.

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Post InfoPosted 21-Mar-2006 21:27Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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If this group should become a favorite hangout for Espei (perfect for eggs on the underside of the big Anubias leaves) and Apistos then wouldn't a strong current suck all the fry into the intake?


Umm, do you want more Espei fry? It's also no guarantee that they'll breed over there, plus this isn't an Espei breeding tank, so i would'nt change the landscape around just to fit their needs.

As for the Apistos, if you want to make things nice for them to breed make a little bit of rock work on the far side of the tank, on the right. They'll seek a rock/ cave structure to lay their eggs on (see Tetra's rams), but that's something you can control. Basically, make 'em an offer they can't refuse. Besides, in order to survive with the pearls and rainbows they'll have to hang out in the undergrowth and not wander too far - by the time they're big enough to safely come out they should be strong enough swimmers


Back in the saddle!
Post InfoPosted 21-Mar-2006 21:39Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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luvmykrib - Yup, bright colored, but easy to understand . I was almost afraid that someone suggests this "change" as it was an option that I had on my mind but neglected to mention because of the work involved . Actually, I think this would be the best solution for all things considered.

NowherMan6, sure do I want more Espei . Didn't you see the entry above from Tainted Glory? He works at the LFS where I just traded my Espei. Imagine if I could get all future fish on a reduced price based on trade-ins.
And again, as I mentioned to luvmykrib , I thought that this is how it would have to be. Anubias on rocks to the right, doubling up as a breeding ground for Espei and Apistos. That may work.

It might actually not be such a mess to swap the 2 groups. All Amubias are sitting rather lose on the gravel at the left and most plants on the right can be easily pulled (except the Red Rubin Sword, that will be a little messy). At least the gravel does not have a lot of gunk on it as it had been cleaned very well last weekend.

In addition, I will recieve (I believe tomorrow) a plant order of:

Mother plant Green Wendtii
Mother plant Red Wendtii
A Few Stems of Ludwigia arcuata (Needle Leaf)
And for the fun of it - 1 Anubias pynaertii and 1 Anubias afzelii

I guess I will "park" them in the tank until I have more time to plant on the weekend.


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Post InfoPosted 21-Mar-2006 22:34Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
luvmykrib
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I am glad you were also thinking of that suggestion, I didn't want it to come from left field but I think it will look quite nice when it's done.
I recently added the l. arcuata to both my tanks, it's a great plant with small needle leaves, the one in the 10 is shedding leaves as quick as it is growing new ones, but it is still growing and that's what counts, maybe keep it away from the current will help, and the one in the 25 looks great, it is a wonderful contrast to the lager leaves of the crypts and the nana it is beside. Too bad it doesn't come in red, it doesn't does it?
More anubias to fill in the mound? The more the merrier! How will you be able to tell them apart? Little garden tags beside each one? Can't wait to see them. Have you decided which rocks to pile together and how it may look when it's finished?

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Post InfoPosted 21-Mar-2006 23:21Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks luvmykrib for the info on the arcuata. I ordered only 4 and given the prize for it I assume it means 4 stems (I actually wanted to have another type of Ludwigia, but they were out of that one and called me to select a replacement, very nice). With such a small mass to begin with it will take a while before I have a needle forest .

Good idea about the plant tags, I am sure that it is only a question of time until I will have to look at photos on the web to identify which plant is what. Fortunately I am pretty good at adding the names of the plants I have to my profile, so at least I don't have to even search for that.

I have loads of rock of the kind that you see holding down the big branch. I simply assumed that I will go ahead and pile them up somehow, leaving small openings and overhangs for the Apistos and the Espei.

Do I know how it will look in the end? No clue . I think the one thing that stopps me from becoming a good scaper is the fact that I am rather bad at imagening how things will look like when all is said and done .

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 22-Mar-2006 00:50Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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They'll seek a rock/ cave structure to lay their eggs on (see Tetra's rams), but that's something you can control. Basically, make 'em an offer they can't refuse

Yes that's really true the 2 times I did see eggs in my tank from my rams they spawned in two different areas of the tank. First time it was on the surface of a flat rock the 2nd time they spawned on the vertical face of one of the rocks making up the beachfront. So ya never know what they're thinking. Might be a coincedence but the 2nd time they spawned in the front the eggs never made it to fry. The first them I had about 100 fry, but you know the story from there............

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Post InfoPosted 22-Mar-2006 00:56Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks tetratech, certainly an interesting observation. I hope one day I can report back on multiple spawning sites, but until then we have to hope that they make it though.

And tetratech, no comment on the desired Anubias mount? You currently are the man of the perfect layout, I need your advice .

Besides that, I am in love with a girl. Yes, besides my wife and daughter, I have a new girl. The female Apisto has taken my heart by storm. Just look at her development in only 5 days:

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My Love



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Post InfoPosted 22-Mar-2006 02:21Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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I can't see any problems with flow etc. Many people use big structures like this hide intakes etc. I know I do.

Take out the Anubias , get a few rocks and put them in and arrange, study, re-arrange 'til you are happy (late August 2012 is my guess ). You are not uprooting anything so it'll be minimal disturbance. If you like you rubber band select Anubias to the rocks, the rest can just be put in cracks or gaps (don't force them in).

I gurantee you'll be happy with the look. It's a very natural vista and it will help highlight and balance the more delicate lines of the driftwood.


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Post InfoPosted 22-Mar-2006 03:54Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Besides that, I am in love with a girl.

I assume your not like ther rest of us poor slobs and you go for personally as well as looks.

Unless you go saltwater it's tough to beat the personally and looks of the dwarf cichlids.

I have to go back again to look at the anubias situation. Remember I only had anubias once and I didn't like the way it looked in my setup.







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Post InfoPosted 22-Mar-2006 04:48Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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LF,

Your fish is looking really nice. She must like you too. Well at least what you have given her.

As for the Anubias mound. Bensaf has already kind of said what to do. Just keep playing with it until you find something that flows for you. This will be easy for you to change and mess around with too. The one thing I would like to add though is to try using fishing line instead of rubber bands. It won't jump out at you as much. Just make sure to not tie it too tight and cut the plant.

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Post InfoPosted 22-Mar-2006 05:09Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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you go for personally as well as looks
Yeah, she seems to be very smart, well spoken, and displays great manners at the dinner table

Honestly, I thought these fish may be a little on the shy side first, but when they swim near the front glass they don't move away at all when I touch it. It almost seems as if they would like to come even closer so I can pet them (I think I lost it completely).

Wings - thanks for the info. I have gotten pretty good at tying things down with thread and I think I will stick to that method. And for Apisto food, appetizers are flakes and the main course is some freeze dried tubifex worms.

Speaking of Anubias (), I am currently paying the prize for letting them sit out of the water during the overhaul. As I mentioned before, various leaves did not like the hours in the air and started wo wrinkle up and appreared very dry. Most seemed to have recovered though, but a few are now displaying holes and missing pieces on the edges. Maybe during the creation of the mount I will cut them off, albeit they don't show signs of disintegration, just missing parts.

Speaking of mount etc., anyone has any idea where I would place the two Wendtiis (red/green)? I don't have them yet, but given the prize and description (mother plant) I expect them to be rather large. I for sure think that one will look very nice in the front left corner, but what about the other one? The mount in itself, I think I will first try to have it slope down from right to left so the height evens out with the Star Grass next to it (and I may put the Bacopa - currently all the way on the left - in between Star Grass and mount) going down to the left side. Sounds good? I am asking now as the plants will arrive today and I can see myself not being able to wait until the weekend to redo the scape, I just cannot resist .

Sorry about the long entry,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 22-Mar-2006 15:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Long entries are cool but you better check the thread out about Flourish Excel. (someone is in trouble...)

So you know that you do not do will with Crypts so what do you do... get more of them.... just remember half of being smart is knowing what your bad at and staying away from it.

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Post InfoPosted 22-Mar-2006 16:06Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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half of being smart is knowing what your bad at and staying away from it

... and the other 90% of being smart is learning from your mistakes and making it better the next time around .

Crypts are simply to nice to only try once. Although you are right and I had no success with them so far, I still managed to maintain some of them for one year now. They just never turned into anything and all just have a few leaves (new ones come, old ones melt). It may have to do with the fact that I divided the original plant way too early, just a guess.

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EditedEdited by tetratech
The picture below shows a rough sketch of two possible layouts, yellow indicates an independent mount that has its own center

I'm not following this anubias mound. You do mean mound right, because you keep saying mount (2nd language thing or typo?)

If I follow correctly an anubias mound on one side of the tank. Aren't anubias used scattered around a big tank to fill in between rocks, wood and sometimes other plants for contrast. Can't you make an "anubias playground" in front of the main rock/dw/stargrass area making it dense in the middle front then less dense as you move away from the middle.

If not enough space, you might be able to move the grassy plant in front of the stargrass into two groups that are left and right of the center with the anubias group sort o in the middlefront and blending into it.


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mound - ah yes, that is what I mean, thanks

See, logically for me, a small mountain is a mount and not a mound. So where did the t get replaced with a d? That's the problem with English as a second language.

In front of the Star Grass group may be nice as well, you are right. But the tank is only 18" deep and I would have to build the group over the main flat branch it the front all the way to the glass. I think it will become very crowded there with this approach. Also, the Anubias leaves will lose their contrasting appearance with the overwhelming Star Grass behind it. I will take a closer look at this option tonight.

Otherwise, what do you think about a mound on the left of the Star Grass?

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EditedEdited by tetratech
Otherwise, what do you think about a mound on the left of the Star Grass?

Personally I think it would look good if you did one on the right side as well. I'm not saying everything has to be symmetrical, but in this case I think it would'nt "flow" good to have anubias just on the left.

I think you also need to decide on your corners. You know you could lay those heaters down so you won't see them. You could also buy those hydor inline heaters and it will completely eliminate those two heaters in the tank.

I just think heightening the corners reduces your flexiblity and competes with the center. Unless your gonna build a back of varying height all the way across.

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Hay, all these decisions

Unless your gonna build a back of varying height all the way across
That is pretty much what I have, isn't it?

Also, I think you may misunderstand the mound idea. I would like it to be really low on the way way left, rising towards the Star Grass. I could even go so far as leaving a few inches open all the way at the left and all the way to the back.
if you did one on the right side as well
Hm, sounds nice, but the downside would be that there will be not much space left for any other type of plant.
buy those hydor inline heaters and it will completely eliminate those two heaters in the tank
I actually have currently 3 heaters in the tank, two stealth at 200W each on the left and one regular with 300W on the right. If I am not mistaken then the Hydor have a max capacity of 300W. I would have to have a few in line (or parallel) and I don't know how feasible that would be.

Too many thoughts, "overload - Will Robinson"

Ingo


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Well, when I look at your tank right now, I see mostly high center and high corners.

I think I understand the mound, but I guess I would have to see it with anubias only in one location. If it's a tank in itself with an anubias mound that of course we have seen.

Your right about the heater. I bet you don't even need the 300 watt visi-therm. I have one 250 watt stealth and I have absolutely no fluctation and I just went through a New York Winter. Actually if the mild winters keep up I'll have to get a chiller. You know they sell these regulators inline that chill and heat? I think you could fit a 6-pack in there as well.

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Too many thoughts, "overload - Will Robinson"

So just to prove that I have some sort of reading issue. I read Will Robinson as Robin Williams.

Inline heaters? Sounds really sweet. tetratech. post a link!

I guess it is hard to see what you have in mind for the Anubias. Can't wait to see whats in your head.




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Post InfoPosted 23-Mar-2006 00:14Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Welcome to neurosis central folks ! Pull up a chair and grab a Prozac

Anubias are very very versatile. They can be used to fill gaps , make backgrounds, mounds etc.

Remember too that LF has some of the taller bigger varieties. It doesn't have to be a mound - it can be a peak if you want. Whatever rocks your boat. But whatever it is it can only look better then laying flat on the substrate, a waste of plant and space IMHO

Tetra didn't like the look of Anubias in his tank becasue he chopped it up into little bits and spread it around the tank in really odd places Thankfully he has learned to aquascape since then

Something has to be done with the left section it's a barren wasteland compared to the rest of the tank.

Ingo,
With the crypts if they fit I would put them altogether. I've mentioned before crypts always seem to do better when planted in groups. Individual plants always seem to be a bit wimpy.

A 6 footer is not easy to 'scape. I'm guessing that the best way to approach is take a small section perfect that and then see what will work best to flow away from there. Basically work your way from one side to the other.

I think the pile of rock with Anubias fronted by a thick grove of crypts would be real nice, simple but effective. The tall species like the Congensis are particularly suitable for this approach. It'll be darker there but that will offset the brighter stargrass even better.

How long is it going to take to temporarily rubber band a few Anubias to rocks and put in the tank and play around with it ? Stop pulling the last two hairs on your head out and get your hands wet


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Post InfoPosted 23-Mar-2006 03:56Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Tetra didn't like the look of Anubias in his tank becasue he chopped it up into little bits and spread it around the tank in really odd places

If the plant can't stand being chopped up and put in strange places and positions then "GET OUT OF MY TANK"

It's funny I originally got that anubias for my 12gallon and it didn't make the cut in their either.



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Gang,

Thanks so much for your input, but anything that came after Noon yesterday has not been read until all was planted . As such, the tank is yet again a product of my skewed visions of what may look good.

But first things first, the plants were already at home when I arrived, not too bad for having ordered them just the day before. Well, upon opening the package I was a little in shock. The order was a bit larger than expected, in particular the Wendtiis were huge and the Anubias pynaertii has a hight of about 18 inches. Also, I got 3 Anubias afzelii (ordered one) and 6 bunches of Needle leaf Ludwigia with 8 stems each. I think by now I can recommend this source of plants, I believe tetratech uses them as well - aquariumplants.com.

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New Plants have Arrived



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Next I had to wash them all. This took quite a while because the Wendtiis turned out to be multiple plants (5 green and 3 red), each encased with this nasty growing wool .

After cleaning I placed them all in the tank to avoid drying out (as happened last weekend to some of my Anubias) while I ripped out my last two hairs wondering what to do now (where is the smiley simboizing a bald guy? ). The big mount idea was gone very soon as I determined that it would take loads of rock to create any significant height (played with the rocks I have on the coffee table).

BTW, I was reading about Floating Meadows in TFH and somehow this arrangement just looks like one. The younger Espei really like zooming through these floating plants. Maybe there is an idea for the future or another hobbyist.

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Plants parked



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Then it was time to take action, and boy it was almost another major overhaul yet again . First I removed all plants from the far right, except the Alternanthera. Here I added all 5 Green Wendtii in the midground and some pearl grass in front of it. Gaps were filled with Helferi and Retrospiralis remains.

Next it was the Pearl Grass valley's turn, out with all the plants. I placed some Helferi in the way back and a rock with the Congensis at the right of the valley. In front of that rock I tied my 2 mystery Anubias and my 3 new Afzelii to the rock that holds down the wood on the right. In the gap I placed one of the red Wendtii and another one in front of the Star Grass.

On to the left side. All Anubias Barterii and Nana out of the tank and back in, closer to the Star Grass group, with the new Peruensis in the back (tied to a small rock as it had insufficient roots to be stuck into the gravel). A Helferi and 2 smaller Retrospiralis are added for contrast. Then I regrouped my existing crypt plants (small Wendtiis, Lucens, Lutea) in front of it, the narrow leaf and needle leaf Ludwigias to the left, and one new red Wendtii in front of that group. Last but not least I filled gaps with small plants, mostly Pearl Grass.

So, 3 hours later- here is the result:

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New Tank Layout



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Then it was time to close shop as I got tired and it was almost time for lights out in the tank. I fed the fish (they can also be seen eating on top in the full shot) and just enough time for one more picture from the right half of the tank, an attempt to show more detail. Then the lights went out in the tank and it was time to say good night.

Overall, as usual, I am not too excited with the results, but I am not disappointed either. The least I get out of this is a larger plant mass

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Right Half



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EditedEdited by Wingsdlc
LF,

Pretty good work my friend. I like it. Did you about poo your pants after finding plants that look as large as house plants to go in your tank?

The one thing I sugest to you is move the grassy plants on the left closer to the center.

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Post InfoPosted 23-Mar-2006 14:29Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by tetratech
LF,
I think you did a fine job placing the anubias in and around the wooded area in the center and spreading it out.
Have you considered adding some more rock work to the left and right of the center to hide some stems and give it more depth and take out the flatness. Nothing overpowering just accents, but it will give it more visual interest and blend it with the center.


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...after finding plants that look as large as house plants to go in your tank?
I have to confess that I have never seen (in person) Wendtii this tall and full. This is a whole other plant than the tiny pieces that I have, and ever had. I knew I was getting a larger plant (mother) and as such the size did not really surprise me, but what did was the number of these plants (1 mother red = 3 large red, 1 mother green = 5 large green). In the end I am actually rather happy with their placement, for the time being , grouping all green was a good idea, but having the even larger red ones spread out seems to work as well as they connect the individual broad leaved Anubias groupings.
Have you considered adding some more rock work to the left and right of the center to hide some stems and give it more depth and take out the flatness
I truely ran out of time . I can't see any stems on the right, and on the left I only see the roots of the Anubias as they are not buried but places losely on top of the gravel, held down by the gravel that attached itself to their roots when they were submersed. I would have loved to try rockwork on the left, but time was short and the old man got tired .

I am currently waiting for Bensaf's report on the Ground Crew and that is one reason why I don't want to plant all the way to the front anymore. Other reasons are that it is easier to clean and that if intself generated more depth.

Thanks for the comments to both of you, as always it is very much appreciated,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 23-Mar-2006 15:20Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Now them are some Crypts. Love them.

I have to agree with tetra - I think you dd a fine job in planting them. Perfect. Is it just me or does the whole scape look more solid ? That's what I was trying to get at. You now have an anchor you can build around.

I was think the very same thing as tetra (fools seldom differ ? ). A few rocks between the Anubias and Crypts on the left, just accents maybe layer the Anubias just a tiny bit.

Great job.


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Great job


Come on, you just want me to agree with you on your upcoming Ground Crew report .

Actually, the fact that I was not happy with the design but not horribly upset either indicated to me that it was pretty ok. I agree, the scape looks more solid and this is in most part due to the stretch of larger leaves all across the tank's width (I believe).

I hear both of you on the rocks. One also has to keep in mind that the Ludwigia family on the way left behind the large red Wendtii will grow significantly higher. So maybe the best way to include rocks in the Anubias section would be a U shaped layout where the left side guides down from the higher Ludwigia and the right side guides up to the higher Star Grass.

Thanks Bensaf,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 23-Mar-2006 16:28Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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My money is on ground crew. I'll be making a post later on this very subject. Just need to prepare some pics.

A white paper on grounds crew dynamics. Oh this is gonna be good.

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It is already out there tetratech (and all others),

Here is the link to it. It may explain why your substrate is so clean.

Ingo


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I finished off the tank last night and tried to rearrange the Anubias on the left with the help of some rock. After playing for about an hour, rocks in - Anubias on top - Anubias back off - rocks rearrange - and so forth, I decided on having only one rock on the way right of this group. That elevated the Anubias there and has the group sloping down to the left.

Then I added a little more Pearl Grass and my 5 Nana Petite that were still sitting in a bucket with water, and called it a night. Enough is enough

Here is the tank:

Attached Image:

Full Tank



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Post InfoPosted 24-Mar-2006 11:59Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Here is now a picture just of the left side. I hope that the arrangement is even remotely what you had in mind when suggesting the addition of rocks.

BTW, not one Anubias in this group needed to be tied on as all have gravel on their roots that pulls them down. This made it a little easier.

Attached Image:

Left Tank Side



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Post InfoPosted 24-Mar-2006 12:02Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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And here is a close-up of my main log. As covered in algae as it is, it also has some beauty to it. If I could be sure that existing algae is not an invitation to disaster then I wouldn't mind this particular algae in only this area at all.

I think it makes it look very natural

Attached Image:

Algae Log



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Post InfoPosted 24-Mar-2006 12:05Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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And last, here is the middle section of the tank that (I hope) brings the sides together. I added a little more Pearl Grass in some spots and placed the Nana Petite in front of the log.

Could be a nice tank in itself.

Attached Image:

Center Area



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Post InfoPosted 24-Mar-2006 12:08Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by Wingsdlc
I think you are on the right track with the Anubius but I think you need to make it larger. Maybe have it be more of a rounded structure.

I like the looks of the algae on the front log too! Natural looking. In the discus tank at work there is aglae growing on top of a peice of DW that actually looks pretty good. It has been there ever since I have started (about 7 months ago). When I started using Excel it started to go away but not that I am running CO2 on this tank its coming back. It is the only place in the tank that has it so I am not freaking out. Yet...

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Post InfoPosted 24-Mar-2006 14:58Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Man, I've been gone for awhile now. This is a very nice set-up (and the longest thread I've ever seen). One of these days things will slow down enough to where I can begin to get back into the hobby like this. Good work.

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Keith,

Thanks for the input. I am flattered to have someone who hasn't been on FP for a while add his first entry into my log - and on top of it has something positive to say about my tank.

Thank you very much,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 24-Mar-2006 17:32Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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be mindful of the future my young padawain, ()


kill the algea now or end up with a tank that looks like mine

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Hi,
I too had a piece of driftwood in my tank. It became
"encrusted" with hair algae and really looked beautiful
as the long hairs swayed in the currents. But, alas,
all was not well, and the "hairs" broke off and gathered
elsewhere on my plants, and soon the whole tank was
swaying in the currents. It took forever, and the removing
of the dirftwood for me to resolve the problem.
Frank


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Looking really nice..love the drifwood

Robby



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Post InfoPosted 25-Mar-2006 21:09Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Tanks to all 3 of you for the input and information regarding algae on the driftwood.

I did my water change today (photos and details will follow tomorrow) and used that chance to scrape off some of the algae. Not all is gone though, I may need a few sessions to get rid of it. This also gives me the chance to see if it spreads again.

A slightly troublesome development happened today in the QT. After the water change in that tank I noticed that one of the platies was breathing really hard. On closer observation it seemed that the fish was not able to close its mouth anymore at all. Also, some slight swelling up of the fish was noticable, like the beginning of dropsy.

It happened to be one of my original females that were added 7 months ago, I am rather certain that she must have been at least 1 year old because she was fully grown when I got her and had babies right away. I had to let her go .

I will keep an eye on the situation, all others are doing just fine. My concern, besides that there is a chance of an illness, is that the young adult male will terrorize the remaining females. He was already a pushy little punk before, but now there are less females for him to herass. If he gets out of control (and there is no sign of further illness) then I will move him into the 29G, here he has to stand his man in a crowd of larger Sunset males, they are going to show him his rightful place .

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Mar-2006 00:24Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Weekly Tank Update - Week 26

The last week was rather boring, besides 2 events that are worthwile to be noted.

1) A new plant order came in on Wednesday and has been added to the tank, some re-arranging was required in the attempt to create some flow.

2) A side-discussion with Bensaf in another thread revealed that my addition of Seachem Equilibrium is rather insignificant. I forgot to read the instructions and basically added only enough to raise the GH by 0.17 dH . I measured my GH yesterday in the morning and I have to say that it was not easy to interpret the test kit. It seems I am having maybe 2 to 3 dGH, which in itself would be fine. After the water change I added double the usual amount of Equilibrium, I figure it cannot harm and I will see if things improve.

The replant from last weekend (major) is still having an impact on the tank. The fool that I am I forgot to suberse the Anubias for hours and I am still losing one or the other leaf. Even worse, my 10 minute bleach dip turned almost all Helferi leaves brownish. I assume I will have to remove them soon.

This week I am showing a series of pictures to demonstrate the change the tank underwent of the last 26 weeks. First, the tank when it was just set up:

Attached Image:

After Initial Setup - 26 Weeks ago



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Here is the tank 6 weeks later, in the meantime it underwent a Weed-Treatment to generate as much plant mass as possible in the shortest period possible to establish the tank quickly. Now the first attempts to scape have begun:

Attached Image:

Week 6



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By week 17 the tank had grown into a jungle and it became almost impossible to maintain it at that stage. Plants were shading each other, the substrate couldn't be reached anywhere anymore (except for the areasin which the Glosso had been removed because it killed itself by being 5 layers deep).

In other words, a change was needed soon:

Attached Image:

Week 17



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And onl 2 weeks later the tank underwent its largerst overhaul to date, all but one plant had been removed and replanted, or simply thrown away. A major piece of driftwood was added in an attempt to improve on the scape, I think it was a good move although, once done, the tank still wasn't all that great.

Attached Image:

Week 19



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The tank started to show major algae (thread) issues after this replant and the fact that I lost the CO2 for about a week while being on vacation made the situation even worse. Something needed to be done and I, once again, removed almost all plants and restyled the arrangement. Only the plants that had not too much thread algae on them were added back in, others were trimmed or discarded.

This left me with the lowest plant mass in a long time.

Attached Image:

Week 25



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And, as described in the update post above, I decided to add more plants for 2 main rasons:

- Mass
- Flow (design)

So far I find the layout pretty nice. Yes, there is room for improvement, but not right now. And if you compare the Star Grass in the last 2 pictures you will see that growth is good, in particular when I add that I had to trim about 4 inches of the top.

Attached Image:

This Weekend - Week 26



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Here are just a few detail shots nothing much.

The first one is of the arranged - and rearranged - Anubias group on the left half of the tank. As you can see, it slopes downward from the Star Grass to the Needle Leaf Ludwigia. I may play with this group in the future, but for now I will leave it alone.

Attached Image:

Anubias Group



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Here is a shot of my Nana Petite arrangement, not to creative, lined up in front of the main driftwood. I had a hard time trying to tie them to rocks and decided that for the time being they should be buried in the substrate. Don't worry, the rhizome is not buried.

I am very curious as to what these little buggers will turn into. Actually, I read somewhere that over time Nana Petites will start to develop larger leaves again as the dwarf gene is not persistent. Any info on that?

Attached Image:

Anubias Nana Petite



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One of the residents in the tank that is thriving on my algae supply. While I don't see them eat the longer threads, they for sure nibble on the young growth right next to it. I haven't been able to account for them all in at least 2 weeks, but I am sure that most of them are doing well.

Uh, this reminds me, maybe it is time now for some Amano Shrimp, what do you think?

Attached Image:

Oto



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And last but not least, the newcomers

It will be a few weeks (maybe 3 more) before I will add them, but they arereally beautiful. I guess I didn't do enough research before I purchased them as I basically accepted the fact that will have a dull female in my tank and the male's color will balance this out. I find her coloration just as attractive as his, and she is a feisty little fish.

And that's it for now,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Apisto viejita II - Pair



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EditedEdited by tetratech
LF,
The board is quiet today,
Anyway what happened to this layout. I really liked the way you spread the anubias around. It appears to have changed with the new additions.

Still looks nice. I like the Nana Petite arrangement in front of the driftwood.

I have to ask this. What have you changed that you think will help with the algae situation this time around? More co2, anything else?

As far as shrimp go, make sure that the dwarf cichlids won't eat them. I thought I read somewhere that certain species might.

Attached Image:


My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 26-Mar-2006 19:54Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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tetratech,

Thanks for the input. To answer some of your questions:

- The Anubias are exactly were they were in the picture you showed, except that the group on the left is sloped and a few of the crypts in front of it (lucens and lutea) have been moved a little.
- To avoid algae I will keep my CO2 crancked up and the ferts as well.
- Thanks for the info on the shrimp. It was a thought that crossed my mind, but I thought that if they are ok with your Bolivians then they should be fine with the smaller Apistos as well. Guess that may not be true.

The only thing I did yesterday was to remove 3 male Platies from the QT. Nasty little buggers. I observed them chasing after the Apistos and attempting to nip their fins, even the male's . Off they went to the 29G. The rest of the day was pretty much commited to resting, as I got a cold

Ingo


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Glad the anubias are still there, cause it looked nice.

Never saw the bolivans go after the shrimp, but you never know. It would be an expensive snack for those fish.

Do me a favor and put a lot of java moss in your tank so some apistos fry will survive and you could send some to live with Uncle Tetra

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...you could send some to live with Uncle Tetra
Well, Uncle Tetra

Will do, but first they would have to breed for me, and then I would have to overcome the same hurdle than you with your Bolivians - how to manage to feed the fry. Time will tell.

Yeah, $5 per piece for a snack is rather expensive, I don't think I am willing to treat my Apstos that well. Ok, maybe for their birthday .

Ingo


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I've added a total of 8 shrimp to my tank since I started it.

3 Amanos/Yamatos
3 Ghosts
2 Cherries

The only ones I see right now on a regular basis are the Yamatos. I haven't seen a ghost shrimp in about a month so who knows. 1 Cherrie I removed to another tank and the other hasn't been spotted since I put them in. So there fate could have been old age, no3 levels or the became a meal.

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tetra, have you ever seen your schooling fish pick on the shrimp, like the pencils or the cardinals?


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tetra, have you ever seen your schooling fish pick on the shrimp, like the pencils or the cardinals

I did see the cardinals go after a very small cherry shrimp, but they never made contact and might have thought it was a piece of food at first.



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Excellent Good to hear...


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K, means no shrimpsters for me then, I guess.

Sad news, unexpectetedly I had to put one of my female Rainbows down. This is the first loss in the tank ever since the Otos were added months ago (and some didn't make it, as expected).

I came down to the tank this afternoon (sick-have a cold or something) and saw her swimming on the surface. Whenever she hit the current of the spraybar she was swirled around in it, showing that she has no strength anymore. Also, what first appeared as nicer than usual coloration turned out to be scales sticking out - dropsy.

I have no idea what the reason is, there are two thoughts (actually 3 - I describe the third later)

- replanting during the last week was stressful on her
- I cleaned the filter and on restart a lot of gunk was washed from the hose into the water. Maybe it is bad for fish and she ate it.

Third thought: She looked different from the time I got her. While the other 2 have a straight line from the mouth to the dorsal fin, she had a bend in it. Maybe she was misformed and as such couldn't function properly. I never thought much of it, until now. In the picture (not new) below she is on top and another female below. Any info?

Attached Image:

The top one died



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LF,

Sorry to hear about your DNR. I about lost one of mine last week. I had the lid off doing some work on the tank and one decided that it was a good idea to jump out at me. So I grab it and throw it back in only to have it jump out on the back side of the tank. Not good! Lucky it didn't land in the tank below. It would have become a snack. I had to move my book case to get to the thing but it seemed to be doing find a couple of days later.

As for what happened to yours I am not going to get into it because I am really bad at that stuff. So I will leave it at sorry.

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Post InfoPosted 28-Mar-2006 01:48Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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- replanting during the last week was stressful on her
- I cleaned the filter and on restart a lot of gunk was washed from the hose into the water. Maybe it is bad for fish and she ate it.


I doubt it was anything you did, like the two things above. If these things did kill the fish then it was on it's way out anyway. Not my area of expertise, but the fish does look deformed, which is not that uncommon with any animal that reproduces in large numbers. Most deformed/mutated individuals don't survive as long as normal specimans, unless it's to it's advantage, but we don't need to get into the whole Darwin thing.

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tetra,

Thats the one of the few Darwinian things I don't mind so much

LF,

Ater looking at your picture again. The top fish kind of looks like a he/she. It has the more pointy nose of a male and the color of a female. Maybe that was its cause of stress.

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Thanks tetratech and Wings for the input.

I am glad that I am not the only one who thinks that the shape of that fish was a little off, and Wings I had the same thought about the he/she thing, but I don't know if this is possible. I know that there are species with "males in hiding" that only show their true colors when they feel strong enough to compete with the other males (or alpha male), but I don't know it Rainbows are within that group. And even if so this should not have been a health issue then as it would be natural. I don't know.

Let's just hope that this is the last death for a while, nothing is more depressing in ones tank than fish death.

Ingo


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OK GANG, I need some Apstio Advice

It all started yesterday when I was going to feed the fish in the QT. Usually, tapping the food container on the glass brings them all together to the front, even the Apistos have learned that by now. But, no sign of the female. I looked (just looked, not rearranged) all over the tank and started to feed when she appeared, I don't know from where. She is more beautiful than ever and has an orange included in her yellow coat now. Then, after an appetizer of flakes, I went back to get the freeze dried Tubifex worms, and again she was not to be found . She came then out from behind one of the pieces of driftwood and after eating some worms dissapeared to that area again. I lurked around the side of the tank and saw her hush into a little cave in the wood.

The same happened ever since yesterday, whenever I approach the tank she cannot be seen, but she comes out to feed and then goes back there. The male is his usual, no changes at all. I removed the backcover, but my head is too big to fit in the gap between tank and wall. I used a small mirrow and a flashlight. I held the mirror in the tank and used the flashlight to see what is going on back there - Too deep of a cave and too dark.

Do I have eggs back there for sure? She is not in hiding because of stress as she looks sooooo good right now. I cannot go out and buy liquid fry food just based on assumption as I wouldn't know how much and when to feed.

Any ideas what is going on and what to do?

Ingo


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She might have eggs back there but cichlids can be wierd sometimes. My baby convicts either beg for food at the top of the tank or hide like they have never seen a big hairy faced balding stressed out soon to be married college kid before. The parents are the same way. Sometimes very personable others they act like they have never seen you before.

I wouldn't worry about feeding the fry right away if that is the case. They can normally fend for themselves really well for a while just on left over egg sack. If you do see some fry it might be worth getting some frozen baby brine shrimp to feed them though. My baby convits grew much faster than normal when I was feeding them that.

How is the male looking? No extra color or anything? Agression?

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Thanks Wings,
How is the male looking? No extra color or anything? Agression?
Fine, No, No.

This are the quick answers to your questions . This is what throws me off, as I would have assumed him to be more aggressive with eggs around. On the other hand, I read that it is the female that protects the edds/fry and the male is in charge of territory (which by the way is supposed to be larger than the 20G QT).

I will have to keep an eye open for any tiny fish that may stick its head out of the wood cave at some point. If they stay in the back of the cave then there is no way for me to tell.

Anyone has any idea of how long the incubation time for Apisto Eggs is?

Ingo


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Anyone has any idea of how long the incubation time for Apisto Eggs is?

It's probably a few days, before they become wigglers. As someone mentioned they probably wouldn't need food for at least a few days after they hatch because they have the yolk sacs. Funny thing is my two rams have disappeared over the last few days, but there is so much density in the tank I'll probably never find the eggs and I can't go behind mine.

When my rams spawned the first time they laid the eggs on a piece of petrified wood and then they dug a borrow in the substrate and moved the egg/wigglers in there?





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Post InfoPosted 29-Mar-2006 14:10Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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LF,

No experience with apistos, but that sounds like pretty standard dwarf cichlid breeding behavior. There's no other reason for her to not come out and beg for food. They may eat the first batch themselves, it may take them a while to "Get it" I wouldn't go crazy about this batch... but I guess this is why when people breed them intentionally they just tanks without a lot of clutter so you can actually see and feed the fry etc.


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Thanks you two for the input

Yeah, I guess there is not much I can do than wait and see what will happen, but you know how it is.

I nearly broke my neck yesterday when trying to get a closer look into the cave .

Guess I will have to get the goggles out and take a head dive into the tank. I wonder what the fish would think about that .

Thanks again,

Ingo


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I would get with tetra before you take your dive! He has the head gear you need!

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Someone call for the Fishgeek



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Post InfoPosted 29-Mar-2006 15:29Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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LF,

By the way, was the LFS you sold the espei to AF? I saw some very VERY healthy looking "tank raised" rasbora espei the other day...


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Post InfoPosted 29-Mar-2006 21:34Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Yup NowherMan6,

That may have been mine

Did ya buy any?

And tetratech - we (NowherMan6 and I) cannot afford such a sophisticated head-stander to do our dive chores .

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 29-Mar-2006 22:34Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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And tetratech - we (NowherMan6 and I) cannot afford such a sophisticated head-stander to do our dive chores

Yeah, I'm usually hired for only really big tanks:



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Post InfoPosted 29-Mar-2006 22:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I about choked on my food!

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NowherMan6
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Caption for this photo:

"While everyone else enjoyed a pleasant lunch, tetratech proceeded to stare off into the distance, snapping back into consciousness only to drink his saki through his special blue Fish Geek straw."


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Feels like the good old days are back.

But you know, he was really there, he even visited the ADA site.

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Tetratech at ADA



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Wingsdlc
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What is the ADA? It looks sweet!

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NowherMan6
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Wow, now that you mention it LF, he seems to be popping up all over the place. Why, this evening I was looking through an old history textbook and I came across a picture with a familiar looking guy in it...

Wait, wait... oh my... is that... yes, yes it is! Tetra that's you! I didn't know you were one of Teddy Roosevelt's rough riders!!



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The caption to that picture read:

"Teddy Roosevelt's Rough Riders were also the first Unit to train in modern warfare, although Corporal Tetratech's goggles and snorkel didn't proof effective agains chemical agents, even when wearing them 24/7"


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Post InfoPosted 30-Mar-2006 11:55Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Man this is cracking me up, made my day.

Of course I couldn't resist

Caption ? -

"Darn, how does he get that Wallichii so pink?"



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Post InfoPosted 30-Mar-2006 14:58Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Yeah, I don't know if tetratech anticipated this when he started this section.

But he is looking pretty good for someone who seems to stick his head all the time in everybodies business, eh - tank.

Ingo


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NowherMan6
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OK, last one, I promise...

"LF introduces his new fish, the Dwarf Neon Tetratech"



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Sadly it all came to end today for tetratech. After pursuing him for days, tetratech was arrested. The charges included breaking into Amano's house, stealing from ADA, impersonator a rough rider and wallichii abuse.
They are still looking for his accomplish LF, for his part in the dwarf neon tetratech fish scandal.





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Nice way to end it tetra! The funny part about that picture is the guy holding the vidio cammera. What kind of poilic training does that take? 1 dounut... 2 dounut aht aht ahh..

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Post InfoPosted 30-Mar-2006 18:49Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Ah, that was fun

Let's just hope tetratech will be released again soon

On the actual tank frontier:

Nothing much happened, it may be that a little algae growth can be observed, but not too much so far.

The female Apstio is still doing her hiding thing, but I just cannot peek into that cave.

We will see,

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LF,

Do you have a close-up pic of the algae in question?


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Not here, but it is basically more of the same than the one that eventually caused me to do the last major overhaul.

Small threads on plant leaves and the glass, none longer than maybe 1/2 an inch. And not too many yet.

It could be that I haven't really corrected the issue that I had - I upped the P dosage to 1/2tsp every other day as it must have been too low for a while.
It also could be that the attempt I made to scrub off existing algae from glass and wood caused it to settle somewhere else.

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Post InfoPosted 30-Mar-2006 21:15Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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They let me go as long as I never say anything bad about Petland Discounts again - yeah right

Anyway sorry to hear about the algae problems. Those protists are tough little hombres. Afterall they've been around for quite some time.

What's interesting is that I have my own little war with some BBA. It's actually growing on the inside of the glass diffusor right where the bubbles come out and my co2 is cranked. I also see some bba on the rar right back glass which is far away from dissusor, so I don't see the low co2 relationship in my tank anyway, it's just not that simple, not black and white.



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Week 27 - Weekly Tank Update

This week the tank made me very frustrated. The algae is most certainly growing back, although I have upped the P now for 2 weeks straight to 1/2tsp 3 x a week and the Equilibrium to 1tsp per week. All other parameters stayed the same so I feel like I am at the end of my ideas. Makes me wonder if I should order a bunch of low light plants, shut off the second light row and the CO2, and live in peace from here on.

I ordered 4 diffusers, 2 3-coil and 2 8-coil, they should be here Tuesday and I will hook up one 8-coil under the spraybar, maybe that will help. Nevertheless, the problem that remains is the removal of existing algae which I cannot achieve by removing the hardware as I do not want to have another major overhaul at this time.

The plant order from last week is not doing too well, the crypts - as expected - show some melting, all stems of the Needle Leaf Ludgwigia rotted away and I had to remove all of them. My Star Grass on the other hand grows like mad and I had to remove the whole bunch and replant the tops.

Here is a picture from yesterday before the trimming:

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Week 27 - Before Trimming



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And here is a picture after the trimming and water change. Nothing else has change from the previous picture, except that I removed the dead stems of Needle Leaf Lugwigia:

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Week 27 - After Water Change and Trimming



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Algae anyone?

The small group of crypts (pictured is a Wendtii), Wendtii, Lucens, and Lutea all look like this. They are located to the left of the big piece of wood, with the water flowing from right to left in that part of the tank. It may have gotten so bad because I tried to scrubb of some algae last week and the water flow blew it onto these plants. Or, it got it because the plants were moved and are unstable now.

But this is not the only plant, I see an increased on all my Anubias plants and the remaining Retrospiralis.

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Darn Algae



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Fortunately,

There are still these guys here, although the female is not protecting her little cave anymore (false alarm or failure).

Here is the male parading the tank:

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Apisto viejita male



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And my beloved female. She sure has nice colors, I love the contrast of her basically yellow bodie and the black markings. The occasional red and blue sprinkle looks very nice as well.

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Apisto viejita female



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And because it is so nice, here a picture of the happy couple. When they "meet" in the tank there is always some "spine twisting" mutual attention thing going on. All fins are stretched out and the fish circle each other once or twice with bent backs. Then they swim off in different directions to keep on looking for food:

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Apisto viejita couple



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First thing I could say is that I'm glad you got those fish to take your mind off the algae. I guess there cheaper than taking another vacation.

Anyway, as the song says "where do we go from here".
Question?
Is the algae more prolific than it was before you reduced all that mass and added the driftwood? If the answer is yes than at least there is some cause and effect. Looking at your tank now I don't see alot of fast growing fert sucking plants other than the stargrass? In my tank I get alittle bba on the blyxa because it really doesn't grow all that much in the light I have.

I don't think your issue is with fert dosing. Your not doing anything that much different than Bensaf and me.


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I'm glad you got those fish to take your mind off the algae
And on top of this they are still in the QT, so I don't even have to look at the algae tank to see them

Thanks tetratech, I needed some encouragement. Yeah, the whole algae mess started after I added the driftwood, at least this form of algae. And you are absolutely right, I have only very few fast growing plants, there is the larger group of Star Grass and the groupings of Pearl Grass. I thought that the tank was at a stage where it doesn't require that many fast growers anymore, but either because of the major changes or because this phase would come much later (if ever) I am not there yet.

But what can I do? I am honestly sick of spending 8 hours to redo the tank every few weeks. I am getting seriously fed up with it. If EI works only if I have fast growers in there, what good is it for?

Ingo


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How much light are you running? How long? Maybe you should play the game of low light all day and a high light for only a couple of hours.



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bensaf
 
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EditedEdited by bensaf
But what can I do? I am honestly sick of spending 8 hours to redo the tank every few weeks. I am getting seriously fed up with it.

Personally I think that's part of your problem right there ! Too much changing and uprooting. As tetra said you are doing pretty much the same as us except for one thing, we rarely make big changes to our tanks. Add or remove a plant here and there but no major overhauls.


If EI works only if I have fast growers in there, what good is it for?

No it'll work for slow growers too. A couple of fast ones are a good check valve. But besides that I don't see the connection between fast growers and having to do big overhauls.
The fast growers just need to be trimmed, nothing major there. If they need to be uprooted for the trim , just vac around that area to remove anything that may have been kicked up and replant. No biggie.

But on more then one occasion you have pulled up every plant in the tank. I never never do that to a tank unless I'm tearing it down. If I want to make that big a change I do it gradually, pretty much move one group at a time. Takes longer to get the look you want but less problems in the long run.





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Post InfoPosted 03-Apr-2006 03:33Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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i agree with bensaf, slow and steady wins the race. in my tank with the BBA i have nearly all off the plants and only the back and side walls to go. just keep getting rid of the badly affected leaves and you will eventually win

OH TOLEEDY!
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
But on more then one occasion you have pulled up every plant in the tank
Well, I always left one group (at least) in its position

No, but seriously: If I ever wanted to have driftwood in the tank than the first major overhaul was the only way to do it. I don't think you would believe that this could have been achieved by removing only one plant at a time. And the second major overhaul was needed to add more plant mass. And that is it, I haven't done more than these 2 overhauls (although I feel like I am doing them on a weekly basis).

Thanks for the advice on "making slow changes", I will try to keep that in mind for the future. There is one thing that makes following this advice rather costly though: Almost all plants for my tank are ordered over the web (not the best local resources) and if I add only one plant at a time then I will have to pay loads of shipping until I have a new assortment.

Maybe it's time to add some Wisteria from the 20G QT to my tank.

Ingo


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LF,

Double dog dare you to join the wisteria club! The question is will you grow tall or lay low?

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NowherMan6
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Too much changing and uprooting


LF, for what it's worth, I believe I'm in the same boat. My algae problems started after doing major overhauls, and they certainly seem to get worse after doing major overhauls... slowing down after several water changes etc. I'm right there with ya, lookin for the answer


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EditedEdited by tetratech
You guys are going to make me quote one of my favorite movies again "small moves, ellie, small moves"

I think Bensaf is probably on to something with the "extreme makeover" planted tank edition. I'm also wondering if the substrate has anything to do with it.
Is the lava-rock based eco complete a better bio-filter than a gravel/laterite mix. Lava rock is used in filters as a bio media.

What I'm getting at is the ability of the tank to decompose waste making it unavailable to algae through plant suck up and bio-filteration.

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Post InfoPosted 03-Apr-2006 14:11Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Well it's more to do with stirring up mulm and NH4 from a mature substrate. Both are lovely algae treats

Plus the plants stall for a bit after a big move.

If you need to order lots of plants - stick them wherever there's space and then gradually move things/replace to the position you like.


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EditedEdited by tetratech
Well it's more to do with stirring up mulm and NH4 from a mature substrate. Both are lovely algae treats
.

Yes, but does the amount of biofileration in the substrate neutralize this algae treat. The "honeymoon" phase of the hobby is long gone, why not pack the tank (And I mean pack, densily plant wisteria, hygro, etc and see if it makes a difference and slowly remove them "small moves" over time until you have the look you want.

By the way whatever happened to Chaos Maximus?

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NowherMan6
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Tetra, that's actually what I've been doing, pretty much letting the wisteria take over for a while. I wasn't able to do WCs last week because of the gourami eggs (by the way, the plant mass that the eggs were laid in got moved around by the current the other day and the bubblenest was destroyed. sad sight, but at least it let me do a water change) but I plan on doing a couple this week to pick up the excess mulm stirred up in the make-overs. As I said, i think LF and I are suffering from the same thing, because I know my EI routine is basically the same as yours, with lower numbers for the smaller tank.

and BTW, I sent Chaos a PM about 2 weeks ago and never got anything back


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I guess I will take out the pruning scissors then tonight and clip off some Wisteria from the 20G and add it to the big tank.

Also, my Alternanthera is getting too tall. I would assume that I simply can cut off the top and replant it (did that before) and leave the bottom part of the stem in to sprout again. What I don't know is if there is a rule (advice) as to the percentile to cut off, like 2/3 down the stem or something.

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Post InfoPosted 03-Apr-2006 16:18Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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guess I will take out the pruning scissors then tonight and clip off some Wisteria

Ya know things can get kinda boring if everyone has all this wisteria in their tanks.

If anyone wants to order L.I. Wisteria and/or Willow Branches I'm selling.

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Ya know things can get kinda boring if everyone has all this wisteria in their tanks


Well, why do you think I don't have any in my tank right now. The last thing I want is a beautiful tank that simply would be a copy of yours, not because your tank is not very nice, but how boring would that be?

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Just to chime in here: wisteria is a great stem plant becaus 1.) it fills up space and 2.) because although it grows fast, it doesn't grow so fast that it becomes weed-like, like hygro polysperma. if you have a better idea for a nutrient sucker then you let me know


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Hey Ingo, I noticed no-one answered your question about how much to pinch off, 2/3rds is a bit too much, the general rule of thumb for pruning land plants is 1/3. Same with roots, take about 1/3 of the roots when you re-plant, no more or the plant goes into shock/can't get enough nutrients to survive.

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Yes, but does the amount of biofileration in the substrate neutralize this algae treat


Well mulm is just decomposing organic matter. As it de-composes it produces NH4. The decomposition is a gradual process, so no matter how good the bio filtration there will always be some NH4 as the mulm will continue to produce as it rots and the bacteria will consume what it can. Kick all this up into the water column.......

But it's not just NH4 , it's other things too, decomposing organics will also be producing carbon etc, nut in the minute quantities that are useless for plants but handy for algae.

An oft overlooked aspect of EI is the need to keep tank and equipment clean. There's a reason for that. I know LF does keep his stuff clean but these overhauls are kicking up a lot of stuff.

I'd definately try a few months of relative stability (still ok to add plants ) and see how it works out.

As for the algae on the the crypts etc, I'm not sure what the cause is. I used to have that kind of stuff years back in small quantities. But this was before I had Co2 and decent light. Never seen it in a Co2 tank.


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These are some of the claims that carib-sea makes about eco complete.

. Contains live Heterotrophic bacteria to rapidly convert fish waste into natural food for your aquatic plants

.Unsurpassed MacroPorosity for healthy roots and bacterial efficiency.

As I said, when I remove rocks and plants I see very little mess. That sounds like a logical outcome that would result from the above claims. I believe this, plus the 5" of wisteria covering 60% of my tank is helping with algae control. Also a while back when I left my filter off all nite I had no negative side effects.



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I'm sure it doesn't work much different from other subs. The important point is that the bad stuff is kept in the substrate and out of the water column. Heck Amano's powersand comes complete with Ammonia ! Should be algae/GW heaven right ? But once it's in the substrate and out of the water it's ok.

I guess it's another good reason to have herbivores like shrimp and snails. Clears up that rotting vegetation real quick.

I noticed in the past that has tanks got older and the mulm built up that algae was more difficult to keep at bay. Part of the reason I changed the substrate completely last year.

I find too that the smaller grains of substrate like the Eco or filter sand are easier to keep clean as the mulm tends to stay on top and is easy to suck out at water change. The bigger grains seems to trap more mulm in the bigger cracks and gaps in the gravel.

Notice LF has a bigger grain then us .......(that's NOT a cue to change the substrate, Ingo )


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that's NOT a cue to change the substrate, Ingo
Ok, I will try to restrain myself

Yeah, vacuuming the mulm of the gravel was almost impossible in the past as there were plants everywhere. Since the latest overhaul (2 weeks back) I have the front open and vacuum lightly the top of the gravel (don't want to dig in too deep to NOT stirr up some gunk). Nevertheless, this open area sees fast growing green threads on the gravel.

luvmykrib - Thanks for the trimming advice

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Post InfoPosted 04-Apr-2006 11:39Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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So back to my lighting theory.

How much for how long?

It seems that a lot of your plants now aren't really fast growers or real demanding of light. Such as your cyrpts and anubias.

Maybe do a low to mod light for most of the day with a kicker to high light for a couple hours in the afternoon would work better. That is if you are running high all the time. Isn't that what Ammato or whatever his name does?

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Wings,

Since pretty much the setup day (with a few mishaps, but none of these in the last 2 months):

Lighting Period 11h - 10AM to 9PM
Lights: 2x96W = 1.54wpg for 11h
4x96W = 3.07wpg for 3h starting at 1PM, ending at 4PM

What do you think?

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Thats interesting...

Oh my 40G I am running 3.25 wpg all day... well about 12 hours a day. But I have different plants than you(the big three plants in my tank are hygro's and they are weeds).

Here is my resent thinking on things. (look out!)

Higher light = faster growth = more ferts being taken up.

So in my tank with high light for longer my plants are going to be driving full force all day and taking up more ferts in comparison to yours. I guess here is the punch line then: are you adding too much ferts for the lower light for most of the day + having a good hand full of plants that aren't sucking it up as fast(anubius and crypts?).

Just probably over thinking things... but its weird that I haven't had any major algae issues(yet..) Maybe you should email Tom and ask him whats up...

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Post InfoPosted 04-Apr-2006 21:50Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
Since were comparing lighting periods:

Lighting Period 11h - 9:30AM to 8:30PM
Lights: 1x96W = 1.33wpg (9:30AM to 11:30AM, 5:30PM to 8:30PM)
Lighting Period 7h - 11:30AM to 5:30PM
Lights: 2x96W = 2.67wpg for 6h


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Post InfoPosted 05-Apr-2006 03:10Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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are you adding too much ferts for the lower light for most of the day + having a good hand full of plants that aren't sucking it up as fast(anubius and crypts?).


After many thousands of posts and over a year of posting can we get off the too much ferts and "not sucking up" thing
It doesn't work that way. Excess ferts don't cause algae. Not all being "sucked up" doesn't cause algae. The whole point of EI is to dose an excess to make sure nothing runs out. Doesn't matter if they aren't all sucked up, no harm.

Looking at too much fert and you are barking up the wrong tree and will get nowhere. You will see toxicity and dead fish long before you see any algae with excess ferts.

The problem is elsewhere.

Lighting seems fine.

To remove existing algae without over trimming try a 3 day blackout. Should kill most of it if not all. Plants won't mind a bit, they'll be fine.

After blackout continue with normal dosing, you should have a stable regime by now. Keep everything stable for a couple of months. No major changes, add plants whenever you like. See how that works out.


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Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 05-Apr-2006 03:32Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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I strongly agree with Bensaf. I've been saying for a long time (look back at my posts) this is a waste / mass thing. Bensaf is being more specific and I believe has good insight on the "churning up" of this waste into the water column. I've been dosing 3/4 tsp no3, 5ml flourish fe everyday on top of 10ml flourish and I have not seen any hair or thread algae or any other type.

Consistent routine and small moves seem to be a hugh plus in keeping things clean and stable. It's been two weeks now since I cleaned bba off my main rock and I don't see any new growth yet. It may be too soon, but I honestly think I'm beating the bba in my tank without using excel.



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Post InfoPosted 05-Apr-2006 03:48Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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It's been two weeks now since I cleaned bba off my main rock and I don't see any new growth yet.




After Co2 the most important factor causing algae would be mulm - BBA can access the carbon from decomposing organics very very easily, far easier then plants. And we've already proved how important carbon is for BBA to flourish.

Tetra raises another valid point. He's adding what he's adding and not getting algae. So if high FE or high P causes algae why doesn't he have it, or me ?

If you suspect nutrients are the other folks adding the same amount having algae ? You can rule things out.

In LF's case we can rule out nutrients (or least excess nutrients). So what does that leave ......
Light? Well can you reduce that to just running the 1.5 watts for the entire period. See what that does, that will rule that out. But I don't that's an issue really , but it can be proved one way or the other easily.

Co2? Easy to prove - turn it up.

That just leaves stability. Well we know how to handle that, so try and see how that works. It's another thing that can be proved/ruled out.

After that there's not much left.




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Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 05-Apr-2006 08:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Blackout, haven't thought about that option in a long time, so long that I actually forgot that it can help killing existing algae. Guess I get too old to remember such things .

Anyway, here is a poll.
I received my diffusers yesterday. I am not sure about their quality though, they are made in China. Also, why is an 8 coil better than the short one? So, the poll is as follows - Next Step should be:

1) Add plants (Wisteria and such) and leave everything else the same
2) Change to the Diffuser (8 coil) and leave everything else the same
3) Change to the Diffuser and add plants and leave everything else the same
4) Don't change anything and do a 3 day blackout first, then add plants only
5) Don't change anything and do a 3 day blackout first, then change to the Diffuser only
6) Don't change anything and do a 3 day blackout first, then change to the Diffuser and add plants
7) Other, please explain

Which one of these options do you think I should attempt?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 05-Apr-2006 11:28Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Oh,

I almost forgot. Here is a picture of the diffuser shipment. The larger ones state "Made in China" the smaller ones say nothing about where they have been produced, and acrually one of them seems to have a crack. Plus, I could swear that the small ones advertised had 3 coils while the ones delivered have none. I will have to check the site again.

Are they any worse than the ones you guys run?

Attached Image:

Diffuser Shipment



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Post InfoPosted 05-Apr-2006 11:31Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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EditedEdited by Wingsdlc
I vote #6. Kill off the bad stuff. Then start preventing it with the better CO2 and plants.

BTW, the one on the left is the one that I have. Seems to be working ok but I am not overly impressed with the bubble size even after the bleach baths.

Edit:
Sorry about taking steps back....

55G Planted tank thread
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Post InfoPosted 05-Apr-2006 14:46Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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OK,

That is one vote for lights-out first and then plants/diffuser and no vote for anything else .

If possible then I would like to know within the next 10 hours if there are more opinions as I would start the lights out tomorrow (Thursday) and end it three days later (Sunday). Whis way I will have the time to do a water change right away when the black-out ends.

And just to know: I guess I simply unplug lights and CO2. Do I throw a blanket over the tank to shade it from even room light?

Thanks in advance,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 06-Apr-2006 00:45Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Well, I don't know if I could pick a number but since algae won't grow in a blackout why not clean up the tank throughly before the blackout, this way when you turn on the lights the tank will already be pretty clean.

So I would suck all the gunk, trim plants, etc. and then lights out. Then I would have wisteria or other good plants at the ready. Plant densely, you have the lights to support that.

I would definitely use the diffusor. It's more efficient I believe than that big reactor, so unnecessary. The difference between your reactor and the diffusor is like the difference between an old b&W TV and a plasma.

BTW - While your tank is blacked out it will give you an opportunity to scape your 29G.

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Post InfoPosted 06-Apr-2006 01:05Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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I vote for no light. Don't give the aglae anything to work with.

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Post InfoPosted 06-Apr-2006 02:11Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
dan76
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i reckon you should give the tank a clean first and then do no 6.

ps i dont know if i made the 10 hr time limit but its only thurs morning here

OH TOLEEDY!
Post InfoPosted 06-Apr-2006 02:46Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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I've tried the big Boyu one. It works just fine. The bigger one is supposed to be for bigger tanks. The marketing says the longer shape keeps the co2 in contact with water longer. pile of crap to be honest. The small one work just as good IMO. I changed to a smaller one just to take up less space but keep the Boyu as my back-up in case I drop the small one or do something else stupid.

Why'd you get 4 BTW ? Are you going to split the Co2 line , run all 4 ? If running 2 try a mix of the big and small see if there's any difference or which you like best.

Don't forget to fill them with water. This you will find remarkably difficult Let them soak in a container of water for a few hours/days , they'll eventually fill.

For the blackout it should be complete, not even room lights so cover the tank or keep basement lights off. Switch off Co2 of course.

Personally I'd do the blackout then clean up, water change and add plants and diffusers immediately after , then regular dosing maintenance for a few weeks and see how it goes. Works ok then gradually play with your scape . Add plants whenever but removal of plants or movements of groups of plants should be steady and gradual.




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Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 06-Apr-2006 03:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Why'd you get 4

Cause LF is an ANIMAL!

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Post InfoPosted 06-Apr-2006 04:10Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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EditedEdited by mattyboombatty
Votes For: Leave it alone.

For what it's worth, (I know I'm not one of your trusted cabinet members, sitting on the fence between the light and dark side) I agree with everyone a few pages back. Too much tinkering. Let it settle into a groove for a few weeks(let Stella, obvious choice of name for your tank, get her proverbial groove back). Keep the ferts in there and the CO2 up, and wait it out. That's what I did, except I turned my CO2 down, which brings me to my other point - my home made external reactor can kick your diffusers butt. Try getting 40ppm of CO2 using less than 1 bubble per second with the diffuser. Besides, it makes for nice white noise when you have loud people in your apartment. Between the nice bubbling of my CO2 reactor, and the slurping sound of my overflow on the salt tank I have no trouble motivating myself to go number 1.

I finally believe in most of the EI teachings(MOST MOST!). This is hard for me to say....I've been against it for quite some time. I remember seeing bensaf's tank right when he first logged onto FP and muttering to myself and shaking my fist at my plants. His green thumb is only bested by his ability to turn a glass box into a beautiful underwater forest scene (my thumb on the otherhand, brown as it is, is equalled by my lack of vision). My first two attempts at EI were very unsuccessful though. The first time I blame completely on inconsistant CO2, the second I went too much by the books. Now I have my own tweaks and what not of the basic formula, but I can't argue with the recent proof in my tank. It looks pretty dang good. And the plants have color. My plants looked at least as bad as yours, LF, and I never scrubbed anything(except glass and plastic things), uprooted a single plant, or blacked out the tank. I just turned the photoperiod down(more wiggle room), put the ferts in, and let it get it's groove. I'd say it's taken a month and a half just keeping things normal for it to come around. I think you should try that as well. It might be too hard for you to leave it alone though.



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Post InfoPosted 06-Apr-2006 06:24Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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After many thousands of posts and over a year of posting can we get off the too much ferts and "not sucking up" thing
It doesn't work that way.


Do you think we'll ever get it?

Votes For: Drives Bensaf nuts before we get it



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Post InfoPosted 06-Apr-2006 06:35Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Votes For: Drives Bensaf nuts before we get it


Oh Matty, they drove me nuts loooonnngggg ago. Many's the night I spent banging my head against the apartment wall 'cos it felt more productive then dealing with my "sons" (although I have a couple of daughters now )


Nice to see you pop back, when you gonna give up playing with those darn sea rocks and come back to the color and glory of the underwater forest ?


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Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 06-Apr-2006 08:25Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Well, I was afraid that when I open my log this morning I will find a) no responses or b) varying suggestions. In good old fish/plant keeper fashion you followed path b) .

I guess the first step in the learning process (for the 100th time) is patience and as such I decided not to rush things. My tank will not turn into a monster if I wait one more week and discuss the topic a little more with you folks - if you don't mind.

Basically what I get is that I should add plants and switch to the diffuser. And most (except Matty) suggest a balck-out. Let me (us) think about it some more, but I guess in the meantime I should not add plants as they would potentially be exposed to the black-out before they can settle.

Why did I get 4 diffusers? That is easy to answer - because I can .

No, seriously, in no particular order:

- I pay shipping once
- I wasn't clear what the output difference between a large one and a small one was (like Bensaf, I also questioned why the coils would do anything)
- I want to keep the option open to split the line (discussed somewhere like 30 pages back) and use the same diffuser type on both ends
- I also played with the thought that I may use 2 different sizes on a split line
- If I don't split the line then I have the option to alternate the diffuser, meaning I don't have to change them during water change and putting in a clean one takes less than a minute
- Last but not least, like Bensaf I believe that having a backup cannot harm in case I drop one

Matty: thanks for the input . Leaving the tank alone was pretty much what I tried to do after the first overhaul, maybe not for long enough though. I couldn't wait any longer then as the threads where really kicking into gear and threatened to take over completely. I am worried that I am at a similar stage now. During your month and a half of letting things settle - did the algae increase, and if so by how much?

Dan: You sure made the 10 hour time limit . Thanks for the input, you should add your wisdom more often.

Ok, thanks again for all the input (to the regular participants in this log as well),

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 06-Apr-2006 11:27Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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when you gonna give up playing with those darn sea rocks and come back to the color and glory of the underwater forest ?


Ahhh, I think I'm hooked, unfotunately. Check out this new coral I got(none of my plants come close to that color):

ooooh, aahhhhh

During your month and a half of letting things settle - did the algae increase, and if so by how much?


Some algae increased, like the green puffball type, and the BBA. I also had some green spaghetti type stuff, it looked like I accidentally dropped some algae(chaetomorpha or brillo pad) from my "sea rocks" into my planted tank. I've never seen that in a freshwater tank before(and I thought I'd seen ALL the algae). It was pretty easy to pull out, and I don't see it anymore.

The last week saw the decrease of those, with only the stubborn BBA still holding on in a few places. If I would just go in there and trim it out it would probably be gone forever. Might do that saturday on water change day.

Unfortunately (for your knowledge purposes) the thread algae disappeared really quick. Maybe in two weeks. I'm sure it was a lack of nitrates that caused them in my tank. Coulda been a lack of PO4 or anything else, the tank totally bottomed out, but I've never had a problem with that particular algae and I've always had nitrates, up until I traded my angels.

If I were you I'd turn the photoperiod down to 9 hours with 2 lights and 2 hours with 4 lights. Keep up with the dosing and water changes for a couple weeks. If there's no improvement in algae(the plants will probably suffer a little), I won't argue with the blackout. IMO though, it's not a cure to the problem. It's a quick fix, and the algae will come back. They've been around long enough to be able to survive that sort of thing. Especially for only 3 days.



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Post InfoPosted 06-Apr-2006 16:49Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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EditedEdited by bensaf
Check out this new coral I got(none of my plants come close to that color):


Nah, looks like an infection I once had, a dose of penicillin cleared it right up

I have a friend here who owns the biggest marine aquarium shop in Indonesia (he's a westerner too) , tons of great stuff. Prices are unreal, you'll cry at how cheap things are and of course everything is caught locally so it's "fresh" as fresh can be almost the same as popping out for quick scuba and collecting your self.

BTW $1 = 9,000 Indonesian Rupiah
www.aquarium-laut.com

I've been tempted to give it a shot but don't have enough time.


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Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 07-Apr-2006 03:49Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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EditedEdited by mattyboombatty
Dang, I saw some stuff for 10usd that would be 5-6 times that much here. Not fair man. I think I'm going to move out there. I didn't happen to see any blasto's like mine though. They aren't too common, I've been waiting around for months for some like these.

Nah, looks like an infection I once had, a dose of penicillin cleared it right up






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Post InfoPosted 07-Apr-2006 04:46Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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No other comment to Bensaf's infections

So, tomorrow during the water change I will exchange the reactor with the diffuser. I envision to place it rather low on the left glass panel, in the middle between back and front. Way up on that panel sits the spray bar. I think the bubbles should get caught in the current from that bar and be dispersed throughout the tank.

Sounds right?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 07-Apr-2006 11:00Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Bensaf,

I am so going to have to use that one at work on the SW geeks!

LF,

I think you are on the right track. What are you thinking for the black out or no black out?


55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
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Post InfoPosted 07-Apr-2006 14:46Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Wings,

Good that you bring up the blackout again, as we hopefully still have Matty's attention:

Matty - I take it that you don't think the blackout would do anything good at all. I understand what you mean when you say that algae is around for quite a while and will come back when the situation is right again. The question I have to you now is: Do you mean literally that the same algae is coming back or that new algae will be back because conditions haven't changed? My solemn reason for the blackout would be to get rid of existing algae as I cannot remove my hardscape without making a major mess again. Changing to another CO2 distribution method (diffuser) and upping my P are the counter measures taken to make the environment more hostile to new algae. Under these conditions, do you still think that a blackout would be useless and if so then why?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 07-Apr-2006 14:56Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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EditedEdited by mattyboombatty
What I mean is that under no light conditions you will kill algae, yes. This might help you get an edge on it. I've only heard a blackout work long term a couple times, and that was because the tank conditions had changed before the blackout in a way such as to discourage their growth permanently. In those cases, had they not used the blackout, I beleive patience would have served just fine, because conditions were growing harsh for the algae.

Just my opinion, but it's a quick fix, a band-aid, duct tape. There is no way to eliminate algae from your tank. There's some in mine(obviously). There's some in bensaf's tank. Amano has it, just like everyone else. It's waiting for the right conditions to spring up. The blackout will also have an effect on your plants. They won't like the dark either, but they won't die(hopefully). However, they will stunt a little, stop growing, and what do we know happens when plants stop growing? The door is wide open for algae, it's just about who recovers quicker. If the conditions are right for plants, you get a leg up on the algae. If the conditions are the same, the outcome is the same as before. If in fact, the conditions favor algae, a blackout can be bad news, and I've had a costomer experience that, didn't sound pretty.

The best thing about working at an LFS is that you can give people the facts and some will take it one way, and others will go a different route. You get to see what happens under a lot of different circumstances in a very short amount of time. It's like having 100 tanks to play with(but you don't have to pay for it). People that tend to make headway are the people that turn the lights down a notch(able to turn up later bit by bit), add more plant mass, more CO2, balanced nutrients(it's very hard to explain the thoughts behind EI in 5-10 minutes), and do water changes regularly.

I had a guy with a 55 tank and the 4 foot coralife fixture(I admit that I forget the wattage maybe 130?), no CO2 and dirty fish. He really wanted live plants so I pointed him to a bunch of types and told him the more plants you get the easier it will be, and to get a lot of fast growers. Against my wishes, he picked maybe 6 different plants, mostly slow growers. He went home and set the lights on for 12 hours. We all know what happened here. So he comes back and asks why it happened. Good guy. Most costomers throw fits and make children cry(yes, some lfs workers don't know everything, but the average costomer is far worse than any lfs worker who doesn't know the scientific name and max growth of every fish in the store). After explaining things a little I sent him home with 10 bunches of stem plants and some anacharis. When he got home he turned the lights down to 9 hrs. He thought the anacharis was the ugliest thing he'd ever seen. Now it's his favorite joke, something like it's growing out of the tank and eating the pets and different pet shop of horrors type stuff. Nowadays(2 months later) I ask him how his algae is doing and all he has to complain about is the anacharis. -The End

EDIT: Oh, and I'm not suggesting you go get a ton of anacharis, though it would probably have a good effect, it's just the plant mass reliable growth thing.

EDIT: And by the "they've been around long enough" I meant the billions of years of evolution thing(not in your tank). Algae and cockroaches are prepared for armageddon. We can't kill it, only maybe contain it. You know if people can't kill something, it's hardy.



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Post InfoPosted 07-Apr-2006 16:13Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Well Matty,

You for sure presented some very convincing and encouraging point

And I also understood what you meant with algae being around a long time (I already understood the first time you said it).

That is exactly the reason why I decided not to rush the situation with the blackout last Wednesday night. Input like yours is too valuable to come to late.

Thanks again,

Ingo

EDIT: Oh, and before I forget: this customer with the plant/algae issue, he thinks anacharis (egeria najas/densa) is the ugliest plant? Has he seen Hornwort?


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Post InfoPosted 07-Apr-2006 16:34Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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And I also understood what you meant with algae being around a long time (I already understood the first time you said it)


oops I misread your post, I thought you thought it mattered how long it had been in you tank....my mistake.

That is exactly the reason why I decided not to rush the situation with the blackout last Wednesday night. Input like yours is too valuable to come to late.


Well thanks, and I'm glad I checked in here when I did then. I just think there's a better way to get things done, as long as the plants are still healthy and growing, that's less risky and damaging. You can always try the blackout down the road if you can't get things fixed.

BTW is there any flow/filtration on the right side of your tank?



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Post InfoPosted 07-Apr-2006 16:48Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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EDIT: Oh, and before I forget: this customer with the plant/algae issue, he thinks anacharis (egeria najas/densa) is the ugliest plant? Has he seen Hornwort?







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Post InfoPosted 07-Apr-2006 16:49Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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BTW is there any flow/filtration on the right side of your tank?


Not currently.

Twice I used to have a powerhead on that side blowing water to the left. My assumption was that maybe this side is stale and that's why I have problems, but:

- It did never make a difference either way, even when the powerhead was humming for weeks
- I have at least as much algae on the left than the right
- I kind off like the idea (tell me if it is a bad one) that there are areas in the tank with less current as some fish may like to hang out without having to paddle the whole time. Interestingly, I have usually as many fish on the left than the right, except when they see me - then they all come to the left where I feed them.

Oh, off topic. In recent days I have noticed an increase in Espei active schooling, as in patrolling the tank as a gang. I attribute it to the fact that the younger ones are now old enough to be fully accepted by the seniors and that I have 30 fish less, aka some space to actually swim to where there are no other fish.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 07-Apr-2006 18:15Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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wow i must say this tank has been threw so much and looks great.
NICE JOB LF!!
i do have to say that i cant wait till the dwarf cichlids get in there...hope u get some babies here soon!
i think maybe a small addition of some pink on the other side of the tank would be nice( by the anubias) or placing the rotala in the middle...in my opinion it would be more of an eye catcher that way.
is all the algae gone now besides the small spot you like? well LF im glad to see the tank is comming along(and cant wait to see what more comes to be)i saved the one picture of the before and after together as my background on my computer...you have inspired me to make my 29-gallon( yes much smaller) tank a beautiful display tank for some of the smaller rainbows and such...GET BACK SOON WANNA HERE MORE!!!
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bratyboy2,

What a nice comment. You made me the biggest compliment I can get, being an inspiration to others is a major accomplishment for me. And if your tank looks prettier in the end than mine then I will have to kill you .

Actually, I will add some pink (purple) to the left of the Anubias group today as I will have to trim the Alternanthera on the way right and the tops go to the left to grow out.

You mention that I should put the Rotala in the middle. I don't think I have Rotala in my tank since quite a while, which plant do you mean?

Sadly, the algae is not gone, read through the last maybe 30 entries (since the last weekly update) to get all the details. But I am working on it .

Thank you so much again,

Ingo


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I just finished my weely water change, pictures of it will be posted tomorrow as I have to wait to take them until all the bubbles are gone.

I have overall more discouraging news with regards to the algae. When I looked closely through the tank to detect dead leaves etc., I discovered that the driftwood is beginning to be covered with BBA, loads of small gray bushels in particular on the upper half of the wood. This is so demotivating.

I also added the glass diffuser, it took me about half an hour until I finaly had all the air out, there was only a tiny bit left. I started it up after the water change and had to move it a few times until it was positioned that most bubbles will be caught in the current of the spray bar. Now, in this position it is a little angled, the top is more towards the left glass panel than the bottom. Is that a problem? Also, I noticed that now I have gas and not water in the upper region of it, down to the uppermost coil. Is that a problem? And, bubbles do not come out from the entire ceramic plate but only from part of it. Again, is that a problem?

Cheers, your frustrated Ingo

Attached Image:

Diffuser in action



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Post InfoPosted 08-Apr-2006 23:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
Hey LF

BBA on wood:
I have/had that for a long time now, but in your case if the wood isn't removable (practical) than you'll have to wait to you beat it back. I would just stay on course and ignore it. Keep co2 way up and plant densly. Keep feeding minimal, the fish will be fine. Mine has definitely slowed or stopped since I don't see new bba growth on my rocks

Glass Diffusor:
It's normal when you first start to use it to only have bubbles coming thru from part of it. As it's (primeed) the whole thing should work.

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I have been running my GD for a few weeks now and it is still only coming from part of it.

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Thanks you two for the input on the glass diffuser and tetratech also for the info on the BBA. I tried to get a picture of it but there were still too many bubbles (may have been CO2 bubbles from the diffuser already) to get a clear shot of it.

Weekly Tank Update - Week 28

This week was more about discussions of a potential black-out then it was about tank changes. Not much had happened, except that I observed the thread algae is still multiplying and to top it off yesterday's discovery of large numbers of tiny BBA bushels on the driftwood.

Certain plants in the tank are still growing strong, as usual leading the way are the Star Grass (grew back to the top) and the Pearl Grass. Maybe I should get more plants that have the word "Grass" in their common name as they seem to be doing excellent in my tank . I also observe new leaves on the Anubias Nana and Barteri group, it seems they are doing ok now after I treated them so badly during my last major overhaul (out of the water for hours).

I trimmed two stems of the Alternanthera and planted them on the left, also two small bushels of Wisteria have been added from the 20G (couldn't get more out, growth in that tank is really slow). The mother crypts that have been added a week and a half ago still show signs of melting, in particular the red ones.

The glass diffuser was also added to replace the reactor. I am not sure, but last evening, about 4 hours after the change, the top half of the tank was full of bubbles. This could still be from the water change, although I have never observed this previously. Today, I will have to keep an eye open for the ph. I also upped my dosage of Baking Soda, without measuring I would say that it should be around 4 to 5 by now, I will check later. Also, I upped the dosage of Equilibrium to about 1.5tsp, I figured it cannot harm, right?

On to the pictures. First I will show 4 full tank shots in 3 week gaps since I changed the tank to contain the driftwood. In addition, I only have 2 detail shots to show, I didn't feel like bothering you with more details on algae-covered plants, you have seen enough of these already.

So, here is the tank 9 weeks ago right after the driftwood had been added:

Attached Image:

Tank 9 Weeks Ago



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Post InfoPosted 09-Apr-2006 12:11Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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3 Weeks later, all plants seemed (from the distance) to be still going strong. But when closer observed, the Macandra started to stall, the Retrospiralis - previously split from one plant plug into multiple - started to have dying leaves and thread algae, and the Anubias on the right became covered in threads.

Also, more and more threads were observed on the other surfaces, like glass, gravel, and wood:

Attached Image:

Tank 6 Weeks Ago



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Post InfoPosted 09-Apr-2006 12:15Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Another 3 weeks later, the tank had seem its next major overhaul. This was an attempt to reduce the by now rampant growth of the thread algae and to reduce the number of dying plants, in particular the Retrospirals but also most very tall Narrow Leaf Saggitarias.

In this stage the tank had probably the lowest plant mass since maybe week 2 after setup. Guess it makes sense that algae started to have a field day.

Attached Image:

Tank 3 Weeks Ago



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Here is the tank now from last night, after the water change and general maintenance.

I like the way the trimmed tops of the Alternanthera create a color pocket on the left side. Would be nice if they settle and I could create a whole group of them over there (not too tall though). The Pearl Grass also could have used a trimming, but I decided to let it grow to maintain more plant mass. These days, the tank is less about beauty then it is about not losing it completely.

Attached Image:

Tank Now



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Now on to the two close-ups.

Nothing special really. The first one shows one of the two small Wisteria bushels that have been added. You can see the bubbles on the Pearl Grass next to it and on the Wisteria itself. I don't know if they are still from the water change or already the result of the switch to the diffuser:

Attached Image:

Tiny Wisteria



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The last picture for now shows the left 4th of the tank. Please observe how high up I have placed the diffuser. I initially had it lower but then the bubbles would hit the spray bar more on its back and go to the surface directly, without being washed through the tank. Also, you can see the the diffuser's top is closer to the left than the bottom (the left edge of the picture is the glass). I had to make sure that the plate area is not too close to the glass, for the same reasons as above. BTW, the holders for the diffuser are normal air line sucktion cups and don't really seem to fit the diameter of the glass tube. They barely can reach half around the tube.

In the front of the tank you can see the Pearl Grass, followed by the new Wisteria, and to the right the thread algae covered crypts. The Ludwigia in the back is becoming stronger, it also was grown from small clippings of the 20G. In the midground is a red Wendtii and the tops from the Alternanthera:

Attached Image:

Left Tank with Diffuser



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Post InfoPosted 09-Apr-2006 12:34Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Tanks looking good Algae is certainly not obvious from the pics.

What you are seeing with the diffuser is all normal. You just running one ? Checked Co2 yet ? I'd be interested in how one of them does in such a big tank ! Maybe check the far side of t5ank too to make sure it's spreading out nicely.


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Post InfoPosted 09-Apr-2006 15:54Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
bensaf,

Thanks for the input. Yeah, maybe I should specialize in taking pictures from far away .

I haven't measured anything yet, but I will do within the next 30 min. The lights in the tank went on about 30 min ago and I already seem to observe (or maybe I have noticed it before) that the Rainbows are huddling together, without moving much around. The far side of the tank appears to actually get more bubbles then the side on which the diffuser sits. The spray bar current blows them all over to the other side where there is little current.

Makes me quite nervous, this diffuser thing. I would almost assume that I will have to reduce the bubble rate, which now is still almost a solid stream.

Thanks again,

Ingo

EDIT: Ah - and congrats on the 10 Gold Starts, Bensaf /:'


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Post InfoPosted 09-Apr-2006 16:29Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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OK,

Just measured the tank parameters and I came up with results that seem a little off:

KH - maybe 4.5 dH - seems about right given that I added more Baking Soda than usual
ph - 7 - that is the odd one as 7 is my tab ph. Could it be that my water change from yesterday had raised the ph although the reactor and later the diffuser were humming all day? I will check again in a while just to make sure I got the right reading.

Here is a shot of the way right side of the tank, top area. All the white dots are CO2 bubbles:

Attached Image:

CO2 on the right



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Post InfoPosted 09-Apr-2006 17:01Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by tetratech
LF,
I agree, I like the pocket of color you have on the left I personally would like to see the red plant on the right moved inward somewhat. don't make the corners any higher.

Whenever you can, trim! Doesn't trimming intiate even more growth (one step back, two step forward) that will get the plants sucking up more.

By the evening my entire water surface is a pretty much solid mass of tiny bubbles. It made me nervous at first but I see no effect on the fish. Remember co2 doesn't displace o2.


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Post InfoPosted 09-Apr-2006 17:34Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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tetratech,

Thanks for the confirmation on the diffuser stuff, I am glad that I am not the only worried one when setting up the bubble machine. About moving the right hand Alternanthera more to the middle - maybe some day, but for now things are only being moved to add new plants for extra suckage of Nutrients .

I just measured the ph again, 4 hours later than the last time. It is now at about 6.8 with a slight tendency to less. Now the main lights in the tank will come on. Babies, let's grow

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 09-Apr-2006 19:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
So, another 4 hours later than the last test, I did another two - one on each side of the tank. Both panned out with a ph of about 6.6 maybe a little less.

This should give me about 33ppm of CO2, that would be pretty much where I would like it to be. If I remember then I will test one more time around 9, just before lights out.

Ingo

EDIT: Oh, and I do not see any bubbles on the plants.


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Post InfoPosted 09-Apr-2006 23:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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LF,
It is really tricky getting the right setting with your CO2. When I first got my diffuser I had tons of bubbles too! Since then I have turned it down a bit because I was getting my ppm up to around 50 or so. Now I don't seem to have the bubble thing going on.

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Post InfoPosted 10-Apr-2006 00:27Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Thanks Wings,

Last night I checked my ph again and it seemed to have stabilized at around 6.6, meaning I still had a CO2 saturation of around 33ppm. This is more than I had before because, albeit I frequently had this ph, I upped the KH by about 1dH.

The thing that puzzles me about these observations is that I cannot explain why my ph was 7 in the morning. I had CO2 running the day before, except for the maybe 1.5 hours during maintenance. Given that 7 is my tab value, I would assume that my ph at lights out must have been lower than that. Now, having had 7 in the morning, wouldn't that mean that my plants haven't produced any CO2 all night long? Or did they and the surface agitation from the spray bar made it all evaporate? Very confusing

I also sat back last night and observed the fish for a while, just to make sure they are ok. Well, all seems fine to me, although they all stayed mostly in the lower parts of the tank. It is always nice to see the different characters of my fishies, the Pearls slowly parading, the Rainbows playing chase with each other and then regrouping with the Pearls for a while to rest, the Espei forming a school of about 15 to 20, going from left to right (or the other way), finding there more of their kind and breaking out of school mode, and the Otos - well they are eating .

I cannot count how many Espei are in there, but for sure still enough that the there is basically not one area of the tank where there are none. Maybe I should think about trading in another 20 or so.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 10-Apr-2006 11:09Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Makes me quite nervous, this diffuser thing. I would almost assume that I will have to reduce the bubble rate, which now is still almost a solid stream.


Well doesn't everything worry you Ingo ?

Actually you ,ay have to use less gas I certainly found the diffusers so efficient I had to drop the bubble rate a little.
Measuring pH just before lights on is the worst time to test. Just after lights on at best.
Even at over 30ppm once the gas is switched off the Co2 in the tank will evaporate in a few hours going into equilibrium with the athmosphere. The plants don't produce that Co2 at night ! So testing pH to calculate Co2 content is worthless before lights on, yes the tank water would be at almost tap level.
If you are hitting 30ppm at lights off after a day of the plants using the Co2 then you know you are good.

Good to see the diffusers work on even such a large tank.

EDIT: Ah - and congrats on the 10 Gold Starts, Bensaf


Thanks . only took 2 years At least I won't have to do that darn quiz again


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Post InfoPosted 10-Apr-2006 11:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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At least I won't have to do that darn quiz again


That's how I feel as well. Now let's see when tetratech reveals his "real" star count. I bet you not before he has 10 as well.

About the ph test. The first one yesterday in the morning was right after lights on (maybe 20 min into the lighting period).

Interesting, so you say the CO2 that is produced by plants would not read as a measurable ph influence? Can you explain that a little more?

And about the worrying: You know me so well . I tjust makes my day when I have something to worry about. And my tank as never failed me so far.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 10-Apr-2006 11:58Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I tjust makes my day when I have something to worry about. And my tank as never failed me so far.


I think Ingo secretly sabotages his own tank, so he has something to worry about.



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Post InfoPosted 10-Apr-2006 18:00Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Yeah, I sabotage my tank (and my spelling ) on purpose, you found me out, Matty .

I wish you were right. The thought that some people may not take my concerns serious anymore (may I say cry wolf) has for sure crossed my mind.

But bear with me, I am really trying to have an algae and problem free tank, just like the rest of you.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 10-Apr-2006 19:06Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Hey Ingo

Your tank is looking great. I can see that I am not the only worry wort though

Cheers
TW
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bensaf
 
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Interesting, so you say the CO2 that is produced by plants would not read as a measurable ph influence? Can you explain that a little more?


They just don't produce enough Co2 to make a noticable difference. Heck if they did we wouldn't need these fancy gas tanks, every aquarium with plants would have 30ppm of Co2 in the morning !

Co2 dissipates pretty quickly. Turn off your gas and see how quickly the pH goes back to tap value. Even at 30ppm it only takes a ciuple of hours to go back to 2ppm. That's why we have to keep it flowing during the lighting period.

On your non Co2 planted tanks - does the ph drop by 1 full point during the night? No, right ? Maybe by 0.1 or 0.2 this pretty much teels you how much co2 the plants produce at night. About 2-3ppm. Also shows you how pointless the "should I run my co2 at night" "should I run an airstone at night"discussions are !!!

Long story short, testing pH before gas/lights on is fruitless if your purpose is to check Co2. You need to wait a few hours for the gas to kick in, just before lights out is the ideal time to test.


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Thanks Robyn for letting me know that I am not the only one of my kind here . I was even worried about you running this marathon. How did that go?

Thanks Bensaf for the info on the CO2 at night. I would assume that the ph swing at night in natural waters depends, besides the plant mass, on the water flow, meaning still waters should have a larger swing (down) than flowing water, right? This also made me realize that we, in out tanks, actually turn the natural ph swing upside-down. While in nature the ph should be higher during the day, it is the time when we lower it.

Different topic:

Last evening I went to the LFS and got lucky and purchased 6 small stems of Wisteria, plus one other plant that I would like you to help me on a positive ID. I currently just "threw" them in the tank, it was late, and will properly plant them tonight. I most likely will take out my Red Rubin Sword and put them in its place. That plant received a heavy trimming (during my masive make-over) because so many older leaves where full of threads. Also, it went through a quick bleach dip at the same time. Now, most leaves are really thin and algae infested yet again. Only the new growth is ok, and it takes up a lot of real estate that I need more now for fast growers.

Anyway, here is a shot of 4 parked Wisteria stems

Attached Image:

Parked Wister I



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Post InfoPosted 11-Apr-2006 11:11Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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And here are the other 2. I actually think that they don't look all that bad in this spot. But I know that soon they would grow so big that you cannot see the other plants behind it anymore (and shading would set in as well).

Attached Image:

Parked Wister II



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Last but not least, here is a shot of the plant that I mentioned earlier.

I bought two stems that were labeled "Narrow leaf Hygro". I believe the plant is Hygrophila augustifolia, is that correct? Either way, what do you know about it? I would assume it is a fast grower, it is a hygro. How do you replant/trim this plant? Do you know of any problems with it?

Thanks in advance,

Ingo

EDIT: Oh - and don't forget to admire the Espei

Attached Image:

Hygrophila augustifolia ???



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bensaf
 
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I bought two stems that were labeled "Narrow leaf Hygro". I believe the plant is Hygrophila augustifolia, is that correct? Either way, what do you know about it? I would assume it is a fast grower, it is a hygro. How do you replant/trim this plant? Do you know of any problems with it?


You should pay more attention to my pics

Yes it's Augustifolia. Been in every tank I've ever had. Probably my most favorite plant. Nothing but good things to say about it.

It's a very easy very fast grower and a stunningly beautiful plant. Give it lots of room !The leaves can get to almost a foot long.

One thing I really love about it - it branches so easily. It will produce 2 new branches at almost every single internode, so it becomes very very bushy quickly. Very thick almost woody stems.

It grows so fast, branches so easily that propogation is adoddle. You could literally have enough to fill the entire tank in a couple of months. You'll be throwing away buckets of the stuff.

Give it a location it deserves. It appreaciates a bit of flow so the leaves can sway outwards and catch the light. Not overyly important in terms of growth but brings out the best in looks. The leaves are a lovely deep green with a bright silver underside.

Best used to really fill out a corner section or as big solitary display. It's a magnificent plant and needs to be allowed to shine.

Just to remind you , mine is filling out the entire left corner in the pic and this was just after atrim ! Started out with one little stem. I think it was pretty much the first plant I ever bought years ago and there it is still going strong, will survive anything!!!

Great indicator for Nitrate or potassium. The lower leaves never drop off unless nitrate is low, also if potassium is low it will be the first to show holes in the old leaves.




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You should pay more attention to my pics


But in my defense, I have to say that you did not give yours a prominent spot, so it wasn't easy to detect. Also, it is not that easy to remember the name of the about 50 plant species that you collected just in that one tank .

Thanks Bensaf , I guess I made a good purchase then. I like the way ot looks as well and will put it in the spot where the Red Rubin is right now (as I don't want to uproot too many plants for this latest addition. Also in that area will be the new Wisteria stems. I hope it is not too crowded there. We will know more about it tonight - in any case, there is no way that I will make these additions another major replant event, they will have to fit somewhere convenient.

Ingo


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Ok you're forgiven.

It should work well in that spot. It contrasts pretty well with Wisteria as you can see above.

On the trimming - you can do it either way. It'll branch out no matter what you do.

At this stage I usually pull up and trim the bottom. It rpoduces really thick white roots at the bottom section of the stem above the gravel which can get messy. Never seen a plant produce so may roots so quickly. Also I'll usually have a few nice sized branches at the bottom (there will be branches all over - but obviously the lower ones will be the oldest and therefore the biggest/strongest)that I can use elsewhere.

Pearls like crazy too.

I think you'll like this one.


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Thanks Bensaf

I didn't do the small replant last night, mostly for two reasons:

a) I want to do it when I have the chance to vacuum that area as well (avoid major mulm mess), so just before the next water change fits better
b) I was simply to lazy

So, Saturday it is

Ingo


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Ok, 2 days have gone passed since I added the Hygrophila augustifolia to my tank (in temp spot) and I notice the first changes. On stem has lost the lowest leaves (1 section = 2 leaves) completely while the other has withering (disintegrating) leaves beginning at the tips (also only the lowest section).

Can this be already a sign of lack of Nitrates in my tank? I would more likely assume that this is damage still done from being in the LFS tank and the transport in general. What do you think?

Another thing that happened to me in the past, and that I feel has never been completely resolved, was the complete elimination of Duckweed in my tank. I still don't understand how that could have happened. I get the low nutrient part (as I may have reduced my P too much, but never to 0), but doesn't this plant thrive in almost all conditions while most other plants would have long died? Do you have any idea?

Ingo


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I doubt, even if your tank was low that you see anything so quickly. More then likely were suffering in the shop anyway. It should perk up just watch for new growth.

Duckweed I've never had and know very little about it, but yeah I heard it was practically indestructible.

This happened while you were away, correct ? Here's astrange theory, whoever was looking after the tank thought they were dropped leaves and scooped them out thinking they were doing you a favor.

I don't think nutrients would get so low as to kill the duckweed but not show problems on the other plants.


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Nah Bensaf,

It did not happen while I was away. I used to frequently thin out the amount of Duckweed that I have in the tank, you know - the shading and such. After I thinned it out one time, and I removed quite a bit and left only a small group (hard to catch these buggers in such a large tank with the current and such), it never started to re-populate. It simplygot less and less and within about two to three weeks dwindled to nothing.

Sure did I have problems at the same time, this started shortly after my algae problems broke out (thread), which started in turn after I added the new driftwood and messed with the tank like a madman in the process.

I am beginning to wonder if certain levels of the water column contain different "mixtures" of stuff. Like could it be that my messing around (or even the driftwood) had poisoned the surface to a point that the plants would die?

Oh, on the other hand: I never saw the leaves getting yellow or something, they just dissapeared. Can it be that Espei, Rainbows, and Pearls eat this stuff and I had reduced the amount to so little that it couldn't reproduce faster than the fishies ate it? You know what, that sounds almost reasonable.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 13-Apr-2006 16:01Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Maybe your oto's thought it was tasty one day so the stoped eating your algae and starting eating the duck weed...... Just messing around....

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Being a little bored, I decided to add a few pictures just for the fun of it.

Number one is of male Espei. I know you have seen pictures like this before, but they have a habit of zooming into focus just at the right time:

Attached Image:

Male Espei



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And if one picture of an Espei is not enough, how about a picture with, well you count them

Here is the majority of the Espei tribe in one shot:

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Espei School



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EditedEdited by NowherMan6
Good shot LF. Not only did you get him in focus, you got him without a grumpy expression on his face - which is a rarity that any rasbora owner will attest to.

EDIT: Just a guess here, I have bad computer eyes, but around 55 or so?


Back in the saddle!
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Now on to non-moving entities

This plant has proven very hardy, is only a little influenced by the algae, has grown in shade and light, doesn't invade the rest of the tank, it is just there.

Isoetes Lacustris

I can really recommend it

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Isoetes Lacustris



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NowherMan6

Well, I haven't counted them yet, I was hoping that Wings will do this for me

But I have one more photo.

It shows the Star Grass group in a close-up. This plant grows so fast that I will have to replant ever other week. But it is very nice.

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Star Grass - Heteranthera zosterifolia



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I just wanted to say that this is one of the most beautiful tanks tanks I have ever seen. That school of rasboras is very impressive. Keep up the spectacular work on this tank.
Post InfoPosted 15-Apr-2006 16:28Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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jbe0404,

Wow, I am flattered, thank you so much.

But if you find this tank beautitiful then maybe you should look at tetratech's 72G and bensaf's tank pictures (spread out, one is even in my log on page 76 - I hope you didn't think that was my tank ).

I will still have to go a long way before I am happy with my tank, but keep on checking in and let me know what you think.

Thanks again,

Ingo


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I will count them for a doller a fish. Deal? Ok Great! 49 of them... thats $49! Thanks!

Great pictures too! Love the one of the school! Very nice!





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Post InfoPosted 16-Apr-2006 04:48Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Great pictures Ingo. I love that big school of Espei. Makes me want to run out straight away & buy another 10 of their cousins (rasboras) for my tank. Lucky it's Easter Sunday & the shops are shut, or that's what I'd be doing right now.

Dumb question, I know. But, how do I tell the difference between a male & a female rasbora. I've figured it out on my platys & guppys, but not my rasboras or my rams. I hope I have some of both & they breed.

Cheers
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Wings - Thanks, this means that you owe me only $201 now, as the fee for the entertainment in my monster log is $250

Robyn - Thanks for the compliments. To answer your gender questions (not dumb at all, BTW). Somewhere in tetratech's log are great pictures of a male and a female Bolivian Ram. I think the female get the pinkish belly when she is in breeding mode. Sexing adult (and late juvenile) Espei is rather easy as the males are rather red than orange. Otherwise, the general body shape of females is rounder than males, which are a little more streamlined.

On to the usual Sunday Topic:

Weekly Tank Update - Week 29

Not too much has happended this week, I purchased a few stems of Wisteria and 2 stems of Hygrophila augustifolia, mostly for the purpose to increase the plant mass with fast growers. The amount of algae had not declined.

Before I even started my water change this weekend I stood in front of my tank for at least 20 min because I couldn't figure out where to start. The goal was to incorporate these new plants without messing up the whole tank yet again. In addition, the really fast growing Star Grass needed a bottom trimming, in itself a major act because the whole group has to come out first.

Well, somehow I did it, and I don't think it was too bad. I removed the Red Rubin sword (sorry) as it was one of the algae magnets. Also, almost all Cyperus Helferis had to go, my 10 min bleach bath a few weeks back left them rather sick and they were re-invested in no time (or the leaves died and melted into the water column). That was a bummer as it took me a while to get this species.

On to some pictures. As I have a few details to show, full shots will only compare last week to this week. Here is the tank last weekend:

Attached Image:

Last Week



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Post InfoPosted 16-Apr-2006 12:42Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
And here is the tank now this weekend after the water change and all the other things.

The Star Grass group has been expanded to the right to take the space created by the removed Helferi. The Hygrophila augustifolia is in the spot previously occupied by the Red Rubin (and one stem to the right of it. The Wisteria stems have been spread out in the remaining gaps, I know that this is maybe not the prettiest solution, but I hope it will be efficient.

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Now we go on to some detail pictures. The first segment is committed to fish, the second to plants.

Here is a close-up of a male Rainbow. I know the quality is not the best, but they showed their nice colors more than usual. I guess this water change must have been special.

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Male Dwarf Rainbow



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The next two pictures demonstrate how peaceful my tank is. It is not uncommon for the various species to hang out together. This is a good thing as there wouldn't be too much space for a species to be on their own as the Espei are everywhere .

Here is the Rainbow joining the Espei:

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Rainbow and Espei



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The same counts for the Pearls as well. Although they prefer the Rainbows over the Espei as tank buddies.

Here is the male Pearl showing the rest of the group who is the boss in the tank. It will be interesting to see how these dynamics change when the Apistos are introduced.

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The Boss



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On to the plants. Actually, the first picture is about algae. I was finally able to get a good shot of the BBA on the driftwood. This photo sums up all my problems. The center gives you a nice few of the thread algae and the rest of the branches are covered in small bushels of BBA. Interestingly, it seems that in particular the regions of the driftwood that are exposed during the water change are covered by it. It may be a coincidence though, but I had 2 or 3 small bushels of them on the tip of my rock in "Rock Valley" which also was exposed during water changes.

Not wanting togo through another week long Excel round with the tank, I dripped some Excel on the branches during low tide (water change). I doubt that it will help, but it was worth a try.

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My Friends - The Algae



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Here is a picture of the left side of the tank. A few of the Ludwigia stems needed some trimming as well. I replanted the tops where their was an opening.

Now I have about 10 plant species in this section, probably too many but I am not willing to concern myself with too many style issues as the priorities have shifted from style to algae war.

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Left side



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Here is a close-up of the new right side. Yeah, I know that it looks a little like a junge again, but we need the nutrient suckers. Also, the Alternanthera in the back corner will grow taller again and become more visible. I am very courious how the Hygrophila augustifolia will develop in this spot, maybe I will have to move it further into the back at some point.

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Right Side



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In case I haven't mentioned it before, I find the Amano Pearl Grass to be very versatile. It is one of the two plants that do really well in my tank (the other being Star Grass). You can let it grow tall, trim it shorter, replant the tops, remove the whole "bush" and trim the bottoms off.

I use the pant mostly as a filler, small pockets here and there. But in the left and right side I use them as larger groups. I would assume that they serve as fry hideouts as well.

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Amano Pearl Grass



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Here is the last shot for now, the new middle section.

As you can see, the Star Grass group has been expanded to the right, behind the Wendtii and various Anubias types.

The other change to the Star Grass group is that I didn't make it as deep as it used to be. The parts between the branches have been filled with some Wisteria.

Never mind the current height differences within the Star Grass group as I had to use the plants that where available to me. I would assume that in no later than 2 weeks it all is going to be grown in.

Thanks for looking,

Ingo

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The Star Grass - Middle Tank Group



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Post InfoPosted 16-Apr-2006 13:22Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Happy Easter....if you in fact celebrate it. If not, good day to ya.

Interestingly, it seems that in particular the regions of the driftwood that are exposed during the water change are covered by it. It may be a coincidence though,


Yep coicidence that the peices of driftwood closest to the light are also exposed to the air during a water change...

I found that in my tank any surfaces that were not covered with plants got bba(along with some slow growing plants). My heater, the end of the driftwood, the filter intake and output all got it. The filter intake got it the worst, and just so happened to be exposed during water changes. That means nothing except for the fact that it was closest to the light.

I bet you haven't turned the light cycle down a bit yet. I found this really worked for me in conjunction with making sure that nutrients are really there in the amounts you want them to be. In my case I used reliable test kits to give me a good idea, though people on the light side seem not to trust them. I have since turned the lights back up without sign of algae. I bet if I turned it all the way back up all at once I would have had trouble though. I think that's part of where my problems originated, from when I changed lights. It never is just one easy thing is it?

Oh, and when was the last time you changed the bulbs on your fixture? I ask this cause we all know on the darkside that compact flourescent bulbs last about 6-8 months of solid use before they shift spectrum(light usable by algae increases, light usable by plants decreases). The bulbs you keep on the majority of the day will need to be switched more frequently than the "noon time high light" bulbs. I dunno if I already brought this up though. I might have. Sorry if I did, but this threads too big to go back and check.



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Matty,

Thanks for your thoughts on the relationship between BBA and air-exposed areas in the tank.

And yes, you are right, I haven't changed my light cycle a bit. The only reason to shorten the cycle would be if my algae profits from the time available when the plants are already tired of uptake. This though should not change over time, meaning that if this is how it works once then this is how it should work again the next time around (aka when you expand the period after shortening it first), except if other conditions in the tank have changed as well. As you may know, right now I have the lights on for 11h and in the middle with double light for 3h.

Now, here is a topic where I am way not with you. PCs and 6-8 months until they shift the color range? I seriously doubt that. That was not what my research showed when I investigated lights for the planted tank way back last August. Regular flourescent - yeah, that I have heard, but PCs seem to stay rather stable until they burn out which is not earlier than one year. Can this be different on the dark side because you guys use such high K ranges (20,000 - right? ) or actinic light?

Anyway, thanks for the input Matty, it is as always very appreciated

And Happy Easter to you too

Attached Image:

Happy Easter to All FPlers



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Post InfoPosted 17-Apr-2006 00:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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LF,

Isn't it true that your other tank has no algae. Why not break it down. I mean the differences between that tank and your 125 and see if you could hit on something.



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the relationship between BBA and air-exposed areas in the tank.


It's because they are the parts closest to the light, simple as that.

Difference between this and other tank? Well Co2 is going to be the biggest difference. What does Co2 do to a tank ?
Drives up nutrient demand explosively. So one tank with low nutrient demand has no algae, one tank with high nutrient demand has algae.

What does that tell you ?

The fact that LF was adding far less Equilibrium then he should have been for a long time is worrying. With such a low GH there would be problems. Little to no Mg and Calcium. These 2 would directly involve growth. Would certainly explain the stunting on the Reineckii but I'm surprised there wasn't more evidence of stunting on others. Depends on the plant species. Some seem to care squat if the Ca and Mg is low and keep on going, others, like the Reineckii stunt and produce ugly little curled leaves that look like they were burned, swaords and grasy plants just tend to stop growing or slow down dramatically. Don't know if any of these syptoms are familiar to LF ?

Anyway with good nutrients going in it should just be a waiting game - trim off the existing algae as new replacement growth comes in.



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Post InfoPosted 17-Apr-2006 03:51Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by mattyboombatty
Yeah, you can get away with 12 months, but PC bulbs definitely do not hold their spectrum until they burn out(which used for 12ish hrs/day would/should be near 2 years). Sometimes bulbs will only hold their spectrum 3 months, sometimes 10. The average seems to be around 6-8, after which time they will lose/have lost about 40% of their efficacy. I've never been able to read information on spectrum and intensity given by bulb manufacturers (remember, the people who make them, not sell them), but instead must rely on heresay. So who knows what you hear is right. The sellers of the bulbs, coralife and even retailers, give bulb life(how long 50% of tested bulbs lasted, about 2 years), and initial spectrum output and intensity, not efficacy over that period, not even the actual readings after "burn in" which is about 100hrs of use.

From what research I've done on NO, VHO, PC, T-5 HO, and MH, it seems to me that T-5 HO bulbs are the only bulbs that continue to give a high percentage of light at a full year. None of these bulbs can claim however that they will give the same, or similar output for the majority of the bulb life.

Anyways, you can't assume that bulbs will last any amount of time, and should just be something to consider, because after 6-8 months of use it's increasingly likely that your bulbs are going downhill. I'm not saying that if your plants are doing great to go out and buy a new bulb every six months, but just to give thought. I'll keep mine running as long as possible. I'm a poor college kid . This isn't the most important thing to think about, and definitely not as important in a plant tank as a reef tank which need, generally speaking, more light than we give them. It was just something that crossed my mind.

Oh and you are right, actinic bulbs don't last as long as others, but since they are more for veiwing pleasure than photosynthesis, they are much less important to replace. 6500K and say 10000K(which is what I use) last the same amount of time. I'm not sure about the 20000K, these are even harder than the more common bulbs to find info on.

The only reason to shorten the cycle would be if my algae profits from the time available when the plants are already tired of uptake.


There are other reasons, for me anyways. Light is more connected to all other nutrients than any other, making it by far the most important. Having a high light tank such as yourself, means everything else has to be just right, whereas having a little less light will slow things down a bit and give you more room for error. You might find that your plants will even be as healthy/colorful, and things will be easier on you. I remember Tom Barr saying it, and I totally agree. In his experiments he'd crank the light up to see algae faster, and more ounced.

Eh, just something to think about, I'd like to know why you are so stubborn with the light and ready to change everything else. I'm not sure what everyone else thinks about this though. I'd like to know. Don't just go on what I say. It might have been total luck in my case that everything I did helped out instead of causing a huge crash.

Anyway with good nutrients going in it should just be a waiting game - trim off the existing algae as new replacement growth comes in.


I agree with this too.



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Post InfoPosted 17-Apr-2006 06:05Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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Wings - Thanks, this means that you owe me only $201 now, as the fee for the entertainment in my monster log is $250

LF,
I stayed up all night reading your log just looking for the way that to give you payment. I couldn't find one so I guess you are out of luck.

Isn't it true that your other tank has no algae. Why not break it down. I mean the differences between that tank and your 125 and see if you could hit on something.

125 = high tech
20 + 29 = low tech? But maybe that is something to look into.

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Post InfoPosted 17-Apr-2006 14:36Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by tetratech
Reason I brought up the two tanks, so you might go back to basics and break it down, variable by varible. Something is not in balance, thus the algae. Too much light, not enough mass (discussed too much already), too much waste in the water column, it's not the macro ferts. I'm dosing macros on my 12gallon just like my big tank and I see no algae even with 2.2wpg and no co2 (using excel daily - the only way to use it in my opinion)

Look at bensaf's tank, you would probably have to triple your current plant mass to equal his, every layer and level is full with plants.

Your algae issues are still in the light/waste/mass relationship in your tank. Your dosing EI, your plants are growing, yes some species are stunting, but I don't think these stunted plants are a big part of the mass in your tank.

I can't imagine your "old" lights are causing algae, I understand where Matty is going with the spectrum thing, but I agree that cf bulbs are much more stable.

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Post InfoPosted 17-Apr-2006 17:46Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I ve not been here a while, sort been popping in having a look and then running away in shame! - As ever Little_Fish great tank!

I found this and thought of the gentlemen that frequent this thread and their long suffering other halves!!

http://www.ilfordaquarists.co.uk/articles8.htm

GFG



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Post InfoPosted 18-Apr-2006 23:56Profile Homepage Yahoo PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by bensaf
Your algae issues are still in the light/waste/mass relationship in your tank.


Tetra has been banging away at this for a while, and not really getting the attention it should.
I just read something by Tom Barr that addresses that very issue.
Basicially it's to to with the input of organics into a system. Apparently there needs to be a balance between the the organics going in (ie fish poo, mulm) and the bacterias ability to consume it.Loading is the key rather then the amount of organics itself. If the organics are loaded faster then the bacteria can consume it then you will have algae. It's not possible to have enough plant mass to make the difference. Example a 50 gal with say 8 discus getting fed properly is going to have algae, no matter how many plants or how sound the fert routine !!!! Same tank with 2 discus will have no problems.

So you can have a high level of orgnics with no problems if the bacteria can consume it quickly, if the bacteria can't - even a small amount of organics will cause problems. Loading.

Now Espei's aren't Discus by any means but then again are we still talking 100+ rather then 8 ?

I think tetra has been on to something here.

Certainly I used to be a devil for overstocking, got over that and prefer to be understocked now (looks better), and there do seem to be less issues with a lower fish stock.

goldfishgeek, I enjoyed that article


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Post InfoPosted 19-Apr-2006 04:00Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Sorry Guys (and Gals) that I have not added an entry in a few days

I thought the best thing I can do right now is to let you add all your ideas of what may be causing my algae issues without interruption

While all your advice is noble and appreciated, combined it contradicts one rule that I believe I am beginning to understand (and follow): "Change one thing at a time, give it time to show its effect, if it doesn't help then move on to the next option".

I totally agree with the fact that light duration and fish load can have something to do with it, heck - they do have something to do with it. But right now I am increasing the plant mass and as painful as it is even for me, I am willing to give the plants time to grow and to monitor any changes, if they ever happen .

The "mental" issue I have with regards to light is that I somehow believe that reducing duration, or even cutting out the midday light, will conclude in a tank that I can have without CO2 and what not. So why would I want to go that route?

The "mental" issue I have with the fish load is - I like fish too . Although I can imagine reducing the Espei group (now maybe around 70) by another 20 to 30, you guys have no idea how hard it is to catch these buggers in that tank. While I had 100 it took me 1.5 hours to get 28, and an attempt to catch an almost adult one failed every single time - too fast and too smart. I have thoughts of somehow building a contraption with a real fishing net and what not.

In summary, I guess I have lots of "mental" issues

GFG - Good to see you back, you have to hang around some more. How is it going with you? I also loved the article, I am not sure though if I want to show it to my wife as it may frighten her of the things to come

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 19-Apr-2006 11:00Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by tetratech
Bensaf,
Thanks for the acknowledgement. I had not seen the Tom Barr piece, but I knew I was on to something.

It's not possible to have enough plant mass to make the difference.
Do you mean, possibility depending on the organic input?

To me and let's be honest. "Planted tanks and fish lovers don't mix" What I mean is someone like LF (great guy by the way) is fairly new to the hobby and loves his fish, also loves his plants, but that's a big part of the issue. I would say if LF has 100 espei in the tank, plus rainbows, plus pearls. Each rainbow is probably like 10 espei same for the pearls, so we ar talking 150 fish or so. That's a lot of s***! Oh I forgot the otos they s*** too!
You got so much s*** floating around. Now, look up it's 386 watts, break out the SPF 80. See what I mean the two don't mix. I always go back to nature. Think of how vast the oceans and lakes are. Do you see 150 fish every 5 feet. It's an unbalanced closed system. Yes I know you do a 50% wc every week, but believe it or not, it's not enough based on your system. If you add another filter, wet/dry or increase water change to twice/weekly it would probably make a difference.

Look at saltwater tanks that require protein skimming, sumps in a desperate attempt to balance out the organic load, etc.

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Post InfoPosted 19-Apr-2006 14:47Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Look at saltwater tanks ...
Friends of the Planted Tanks - get your vaccinations, have your tubes tied, get a vasectomy - anything that can be done to stop this Dark Side stuff from invading the peaceful planted community

Well, it is only around 70 Espei, but I get the point tetratech

Are you basically implying that changing light duration, supercharging ferts, upping CO2, increasing plant mass, and what not will all not help as I simply have too many fish? What about Amano's 500 Cardinals in a 29G with minmal plant mass - all just show and for one day only?

It certainly would disillusion me that if after all this back and forth about what may not be right in my tank, and all these replants, the conclusion would be that I cannot have this fish load and a high tech planted tank

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 19-Apr-2006 15:41Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by tetratech
Friends of the Planted Tanks - get your vaccinations, have your tubes tied, get a vasectomy - anything that can be done to stop this Dark Side stuff from invading the peaceful planted community



Look these are gut feelings I have. I haven't conducted scientific experiments but I do feel strongly about the relationship between waste/biofilter/light. Those other things (stablity, plant mass, not uprooting, EI) all have to be there).

I believe if you are going to continue to use high light then the water has to be cleaner. So less fish or more water changes / maintenance. Doesn't it seem kinda romote now that it's too much no3 or p04 that is causing problems.

I've said this before 3.1 wpg on your tank is like 6/7 watts on a 29g. Why don't you try semi-weekly water changes or 70% wc once a week, plus keep adding plant mass.

BTW: More fish the more you probably feed. You don't need to feed your fish everyday. I routinely don't feed once sometimes twice a week.


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Post InfoPosted 19-Apr-2006 16:14Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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You don't need to feed your fish everyday
Almost by chance, I started this earlier this week. I don't think it will make a difference yet, but we will see. Also, based on an advice you gave me earlier, I decided to reduce the amount of food per feeding and I am doing so since 2 weeks .

Oh, BTW - tonight I will be part of that Planted Tank round table discussion at my LFS. It will be interesting to see what these folks have to say in general. I may encounter a big resistance when I mention things like EI, 30++ppm of CO2, 20ppm N, and what not

Thanks tetratech,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 19-Apr-2006 17:33Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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I may encounter a big resistance when I mention things like EI, 30++ppm of CO2, 20ppm N, and what not


Yea, especially when there's some algae in your tank. It's a lot easier if the tank is spotless. But hey, they'll come around...I did....sorta.

I'm not going to press the light issue anymore, but I think that you can do fine with that many fish. It's a big tank with adequate filtration. Of course removing a few fish and increasing filtration couldn't hurt.



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Post InfoPosted 19-Apr-2006 19:52Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Yeah Matty,

I guess you are right, one cannot make a strong stand when there are issues . But I will use Bensaf and tetratech as perfect examples how EI can be used with success .

So you find my filtration just adequate? I haven't thought about that as I see a rather strong current, on top from left to right and on the bottom the other way. I figured that this (and 6 liters of filter media) should be more than adequate.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 19-Apr-2006 19:57Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by tetratech
I will quote a line from my one of my favorite movies:
"The time for half measures and talk is over"

EI - Yes it works, your plants are growing. Remember it's estimative and for the most part your plants are growing fine. Something is out of wack and it's not the fert dosing. Yes, I'm sure the uprooting is a problem with getting too much waste in the column, but do you want a tank that you have to be so afraid to touch. You must bring the tank into a more centered place. Where you have some degree of wiggle room. More plants, less fish, more biofilter (if possible), more water changes/gravel wash and possibilly less light. Pick and choose. You might not be able to sustain the tank you have without doing one or more of the above. Don't take my word for it, look at the tank. Sometimes you have to pick and choose. Remember "You can't be all things to all fish and plants"




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Post InfoPosted 19-Apr-2006 21:50Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Well let's assume for a minute we're onto something with the organic loading vs. bacteria ability to break it down.
Logically we have 2 options - either reduce the organics going in OR increase the amount of bacteria to enable a heavier loading.

If we rule out reducing the fish load for the moment that just leaves the bacteria. How to handle ? Well what exactly is in that 9 litres of filter media - are we talking flosses/sponges or bio balls, efisubstrat etc ?
Maybe by increasing the quantity of biological filtration over mechanical filtration would help ?

One thing I've noticed on the big planted tanks here - they all have huge amounts of bio filtration !!! Most all the big tanks I've seen here have bulit in compartments, usually built into the rear left corner, the filter outlet is fed into this compartment which is full of nothing but bio balls and this is in addition to whatever is in the filter itself.

All these tanks were very clean and algae free - I just never made the connection to the huge amount of bio balls before.

I also remember talking to one local shop owner who had some amazing planted show tanks, lots of slow growers Ferns, Anubias , Bolbitis - perfect health and spotless. I was particularly impressed by his narrow leaf fern - the cleanest,freshest most brightest green I'd ever seen. I asked him what he did to keep it that good looking. His reply - "clean water" !!!!! Not nutrients or light (he had a good bit of light BTW) just "clean water".

Food for thought.



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Post InfoPosted 20-Apr-2006 03:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Bensaf,
I couldn't agree more and I don't think we are just blowing smoke toward LF's direction.

If he had 3 cardinals swimming around I don't think we are having this conversation.

What does algae feed off of, waste and light, right. LF has plenty of both and with his light levels that water better be clean.

Get your sabre out, because I'm going to bring up the darkside. Did you ever see the bioballs in some of those tanks. There is a massive amount of surface area to colonize bacteria in those sumps, becuase the water has to be really clean. Dirty water and high light is the breeding ground for algae.

It's interesting I tested my water tonite for the hell of it and from what I could tell I have 10ppm no3, 5ppm po4. That makes sense to me because I've been easing up on my no3 and increasing po4 to get the red in. The reason I mention it is that I've had these numbers as high as 20 to 25no3 and 1ppm po4 and even with these changes I'm still not getting any algae. It really is an estimative index as long as your tank is balanced somewhat between fish load, plants, light. Another thing too that shouldn't be overlooked and I did mention it before is that with a heavy fish load it get's even worse because people are feeding more to make sure they all get some. LF said he just started to ease up on feeding so maybe that will help as well. I would love to be a "fly on the wall" at his planted tank meeting.

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Post InfoPosted 20-Apr-2006 03:59Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Thanks guys for the input

Just to clear that up, I have 4 liters of ehfisubstrat in my filter and 1 liter of ehfimech.

Overall, I think our discussion regarding my algae issue is heading towards Doomsday . It isn't all that bad, guys. Yes, it is annoying and in particular with the occurence of the BBA not very sightly, but I have seen tanks in worse shape.

You are right, I may have too many fishies, at least when looking at recommendations that state that heavy fish loads are dangerous for planted tanks (of this kind) as they narrow the marign for error even more. But, I think that me messing big time with the tank twice in just a few weeks, plus running out of CO2 during vacation may have just been enough to get outside of this margin and the algae is the result. Maybe, just maybe, creating some stability in the tank will enable to get me back within this margin.

For what it is worth, the green thread algae patch that is pictured on the branch (surrounded by BBA) has almost completely dissapeard. I saw it decline over the last 4 days.

I think the one thing I would like to work on as soon as I can is to find a solution on how to avoid that so much CO2 is bypassing the spray bar. Even if that may have no impact on the algae, right now I feel like I am wasting CO2 and a more efficient means of keeping it in the water can help extend my bottle life.

Anyway: The round table discussion last night was fine, there were about 10-12 people on all levels, some of which just started in the planted tank hobby and others that are doing it for a long time.

You know how it is when one talks about plants and stuff, there is barely any time to cover a particular topic in depth. So we pretty much went over loads of detailed topics, like CO2, Nutrients, Plants, Tanks, Substrate, and what not. There wasn't much new that I learned there, as I said we really didn't have the time to go into details. There seemed to have been a rather strong resistance against Tom Barr, but all add CO2, have high nutrient values, and do large water changes - that for me is EI. Maybe some day I can chat with them some more and find out where they may differ from his method.

At least two of the experts are also members of the North New Jersey Aquarium Society, nice folks with humor and insight, and I am consideing going to one of their meetings. I have been thinking about this before, but knowing people that are members makes it easier than showing up and knowing nobody.

Well, this was a long post. I hope I didn't bore you to death,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 20-Apr-2006 14:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
FRANK
 
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Hi,
"Wasting CO2" can be a problem with using diffusers. As
we all know, with CO2, the longer the gas is in contact
with the water, the more is absorbed into the water.
By using the smallest possible bubble and keeping it
circulating in the water not reaching the surface is the
only way to do that. They are, after all, just bubbles.

So we use the smallest possible bubble, and in some cases
even create currents in the tank just to keep the bubbles
waterborne. Still they reach the surface.

Reactors, on the other hand don't allow that to happen.
The external ones, with a pump, are the best in that you
don't have to look at them when you look into the tank.
The inside ones with the motor and sponge are very
efficient as well. With a reactor, if your gas bubbles
get out of the reactor, you are injecting too much gas
and instead of circulating inside the reactor it is
escaping. You just need to back down on the rate of
injection.

I suspect, that with reactors, as with diffusers, a
given one can only do so much.
I suspect if one working properly is not increasing
the CO2 saturation enough and you are injecting to
where some of the gas is escaping out of the reactor,
you should add a second. But then I don't
have a tank measuring in the hundreds of gallons.

Just an observation?

Frank


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Post InfoPosted 20-Apr-2006 15:32Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Overall, I think our discussion regarding my algae issue is heading towards Doomsday


Why do you say that? In any case sounds like your in the right place, mentally anyway. All these things: biofilter, organic control, can only help, increase plants, biofilter, feed less (with those baby espei) you could probably feed twice a week and be fine. I bet the food has alot to do with the organics problem. Not only is uneaten food in the tank but obviously the poop more too.
Remember I said when I stir things up in my tank I get very little gunk. I really don't feed alot. If you start doing all these things and your plant mass increases I bet your algae problems are history.

As far as the spraybar. Just angle the diffusor alittle bit toward the inside of the tank so the bubbles don't climb up the glass inbetween the diffusor. All I could tell you is I've never had more pearling than I have gotten since using the glass diffusor. Even in the event that some bubbles are wasted the method is much more effective for the plants. Co2 is pretty cheap. What $10 bucks every 6 months, so turn it up if you have to. My ph has been riding 6.0 lately with a kh of 2, so I have to be careful. So far fish look fine and plants look great.

Here's a pic of my diffusor / spraybar:







Attached Image:


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Post InfoPosted 20-Apr-2006 16:05Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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And here's a pearling shot from last nite:



Attached Image:


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Post InfoPosted 20-Apr-2006 16:07Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
And another:

I'ts funny you really get to know your tank after a while, every plant in my tank was pearling last nite, except the riccia, why? Because the aromatica has reached the top of the tank and the riccia is completely shaded. I've noticed the bushiness has stopped on it so if I do nothing, I'll probably get some bba from the slowed growth, but one I clip the aromatica it will come back good as new.

BTW: Check out the size od the wisteria leave behind the rotala

Attached Image:


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Frank and tetratech,

Thanks for the input

I am basically pretty happy with the job the diffuser is doing. I have at least the same CO2 levels then I had before (with the reactor at same bubble rate), probably even more as I raised the KH by about 1dH (to maybe 4.5, previously I raised it only to maybe 3 to 3.5) and have the same end-day ph of about 6.6. I just don't like the trip to get a new filled bottle and wouldn't mind stretching it out some more. As such - the idea is to make sure all bubbles stay in the tank for longer. And it is over $20 here in NJ for a replacement bottle .

I will try the angle method, although I am not too optimistic about it as most bubbles that escape are actually in front of the spray bar. I asume that my diffuser is not even a good quality as a good half of the bubbles are rather large and the diffusion section on the ceramic plate is still only in one small part of it. Oh - how do I clean that sucker again?

Why do you say that?
Because I got the impression that the conclusion to my algae situation would be that I have to lower the fish load, otherwise I would be doomed to fields of algae forever. Maybe I misinterpreted the recent statements from my FP friends in this log.

Ingo

PS: tetratech, nice shots After seeing only the first picture I was already getting ready to state that a haircut may be needed, but then you mentioned it yourself


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Post InfoPosted 20-Apr-2006 16:33Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I will try the angle method, although I am not too optimistic about it as most bubbles that escape are actually in front of the spray bar. I asume that my diffuser is not even a good quality as a good half of the bubbles are rather large and the diffusion section on the ceramic plate is still only in one small part of it. Oh - how do I clean that sucker again?

My problem was some was going between the glass and diffusor thus the angle. LF we are splitting hairs here. Measure your co2 tonite before lights out and see where you are. Diffusor, reactor, inline they all work, I do believe the diffusor methods creates more pearling. For the longest time my plants didn't pearl but their growth was beautiful. Let's move on:

BTW - Clean the diffusor with 1/3 bleach / water. Rinse with prime after that and put back in.

Because I got the impression that the conclusion to my algae situation would be that I have to lower the fish load, otherwise I would be doomed to fields of algae forever. Maybe I misinterpreted the recent statements from my FP friends in this log

I think you could have your fish, but if you want that type of load you might have to go over-the-top on maintenance. More biofilter, more plants, less feeding, mabye semiweekly gravelwash and waterchanges. Some tanks require less maintenance, all plants and like no fish, you know those tanks where you don't even need a filter. So it all depends what you want and where you tank fits in.

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Post InfoPosted 20-Apr-2006 17:22Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Oh - how do I clean that sucker again?

LF,
Bensaf is going to be mad at you!!

Basicly I do a 50/50 bleach/water bath for about 10 to 15 minuts. After that I rince the bugger like crazy for a while. Then I give it a second heavy bath in cheap water conditioner for another few minutes. Then a quick tap water rince and back in the tank.

I really think that tetra and ben are on to something with the fish load/bio filter thing. We really tend to over stock our tanks compared to the number of fish per area in the wild. To make this really work then you are going to have to up your bio filter. Things like sumps a quite cool because they add that much more water/bio area to your system.

What if one were to make a PVC add on to your canister like what Matt did for his CO2? Just fill the thing with bio balls or something. This would add more bio filter area and not cause issues like surface disterbance like a sump would.

I might just have to mess around with that when I move and have to mess with things anyways. I am already thinking of having the tank coming out from the wall at a 90 degree thus it would be viewable from three sides.

(sorry to get rambling....)

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Post InfoPosted 20-Apr-2006 17:30Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Lucky wings gave a reminder how to clean the diffuser. I swore I wasn't going to it again

Tetra has 5ppm of P and no algae. Another nail in the coffin of the "P causes algae" myth

Don't worry about the bubbles from the diffuser. Part of the reason why diffusers lost out to reactors in popularity in the past was the "wasted gas" myth, btw the have you noticed how this hobby has more myth then even the ancient Greeks had ??

Most of the bubbles that reach the top are no longer co2 anyway, it's dissolved and exchanged with oxygen.

Nobody could understand why Amano was using those "inefficient" diffusers for years and refused to use a reactor. Heck, he even places his halfway up the tank, so I guess he's not worried about the bubbles "escaping".

Important thing is how much Co2 in the water. If the levels are good then the diffuser is doing it's job.

Good to see the algae is receding. Maybe the stability is helping. Either way an excellent omen. Just keep things steady !

The biggest hurdle most have with EI is the whole "excess" thing. Most think they can fine tune and micro-manage the nutrients. Cool if they can and they have the time for a lot of testing and monitoring. Me, I'd rather spoon the stuff in and then kick back with a smoke and a cup 'o joe and enjoy the tank. But basically , whether you use EI, PPS, Amano products or any other method, they all boil down to the same thing - getting the nutrients in the tank in sufficient quantity for the plants. They just differ slightly in how they add them. All the good methods focus on plants and don't devote any attention to algae. As tetra as mentioned before Amano fully expects algae and apart from adding abiot of specialist livestock to eat it, pretty much ignores it and keeps focused on the plants.



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Post InfoPosted 21-Apr-2006 03:55Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Lucky wings gave a reminder how to clean the diffuser. I swore I wasn't going to it again


As much as LF has been there for me I didn't want to see ben pull out his lightsaber and get him.

So just to make you guys laugh a little.... I dropped my phone in a creek while trout fishing tonight...the lady wasn't very happy.... this was number two!

EI question: I have been doing 1/2 tsp of pot. Nitrate in my 40G 3 times a week. I did a couple of test this week and I am coming up with 0 ppm each test. Doest this mean my plants are sucking the stuff right up? If so should I up it a little? I have noticed a little bit of green spot on my A. Nana. Everything else is rocking though.

Sorry I am off subject and log hacking.





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Post InfoPosted 21-Apr-2006 04:13Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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I dropped my phone in a creek while trout fishing tonight...

I once dropped mine in the toilet bowl while having a pee Fished it out I let it dry out. Of course I needed a new cell. There's alot of big markets here that only deal in cell phones. Took the old one with me to trade in and get a few bucks off a new one. All going well until the store guy decides to remove the antenna compartment to check it. Puzzled look on his faces as he notices the rust ! He's not sure what it is so he deides to sniff it The look of sheer of disgust and horror on his face was priceless

EI question: I have been doing 1/2 tsp of pot. Nitrate in my 40G 3 times a week. I did a couple of test this week and I am coming up with 0 ppm each test. Doest this mean my plants are sucking the stuff right up?


No it means your test kit is rubbish !

That's a lot of KNO3 to be adding to a 40gal. No way the plants are sucking it all up. Dodgy kit.

Plants showing any signs of N deficiency ? Trust them more then the kit.


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Well thanks to Wings then, otherwise the secret of how to clean a diffuser would have been lost forever

But, I have to dig deeper into the cleaning ritual. Given that the diffuser is full of water (oh, BTW, there is some white substance forming on the inside bottom of mine) I would assume that you don't empty it first before you clean it. Given that, I further assume that it is unavoidable that some bleach will be mixed in with the water inside the diffuser. Now, after putting it in a Prime bath, can one be sure that this bleach is neutralized?

Yeah Bensaf, let's try the stability theorem first. I always have time later to reduce fish count, black-outs, poison, and what not . At least I can try to give nature a chance.

Wings, I agree with Bensaf, your N addition should be fine. Your tank is pretty much 1/3 of mine, and I add 3 times the N than you do. And I get healthy N readings.

Bensaf - I guess I shouldn't buy used objects from you

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Yeah the plants are looking just fine. Growing like weeds. Maybe I should test another tank to see what happens....

Yeah I think you topped my cell phone story BTW ben. Phone report this morning is all is fine and dandy!

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EditedEdited by tetratech
No it means your test kit is rubbish !

I say class action against the makers of test kits for emotional duress.

I was putting in about that in my 72 for the longest time. Recently I have moved up to around 5/8 to 3/4 and my tank is almost twice the size of yours Wings and I still show good ranges of no3 (Then again it's based on a test kit)

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I keep saying that it is entirely simple to test if your kit is bunk or not. Just test it against a known concentration. make up a gallon of water and put in according to Chucks calculator, the amount that would be 10ppm or 20ppm(whatever you want in your tank). Mix well, and test. From then on that is what you want in your tank. Obviously if it doesn't register anything throw out your kit. Or call up the company and they will likely send out a new one or something. Most companies aren't out to rip you off.

I only tested until I figured the right amount of nutrients to put in the tank every other day to keep the levels I want. Now I only test once a month before the water change. Things have always looked good, and worked out well logically too. Test kits are a good tool if you use them right.



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Post InfoPosted 21-Apr-2006 19:36Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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But, I have to dig deeper into the cleaning ritual. Given that the diffuser is full of water (oh, BTW, there is some white substance forming on the inside bottom of mine) I would assume that you don't empty it first before you clean it. Given that, I further assume that it is unavoidable that some bleach will be mixed in with the water inside the diffuser. Now, after putting it in a Prime bath, can one be sure that this bleach is neutralized?


Over thinking alert.Over thinking alert.Over thinking alert.

Yes don't empty it. It'll be fine. Being doing this for months now, no problems.

If you assume the bleach will get into the water in the diffuser then you also have to assume the Prime will also.


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Over thinking alert
You have no idea, here comes over thinking:

"If you assume the bleach will get into the water in the diffuser then you also have to assume the Prime will also." - But Prime and Bleach have different consistencies and maybe bleach is smoother and more of it would enter the diffuser than Prime can eliminate .



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So Prime the crap out of it!

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Post InfoPosted 22-Apr-2006 16:41Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Thanks Wings, more to this in a few posts, but now:

Weekly Tank Update - Week 30

This week was marked more by talk than by action . Endless discussions on what should be done to reduce my algae ended with me deciding to maintain the status quo and see where the tank will go from here. Rushed action taken in the past never gave the tank time to settle, I think this approach is worth a try. I also believe to see the first improvements, although it may be wishful thinking.

So, on to the photos: There will be only 2 full shots of the full tank as there are quite a few details of fish and plants, in particular fish, that I would like to share.

Here is the tank last weekend after the water change:

Attached Image:



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And here is the tank now this weekend, after the water change. As you can see, the Star Grass grows as strong as usual. It seems that a bi-weekly replant is becoming the norm for this group. based on tetratech's bad experience with simply trimming off the top of his Star Grass (a long time ago) I decided to always replant by cutting the bottoms out.

No major trimming has been performed this weekend, only a few dying leaves of the remaining Helferi plants have been pinched off. I guess next week I will also hae to trim the Alternanthera on the right:

Attached Image:

Week 30 - Today



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Post InfoPosted 22-Apr-2006 23:39Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Here is a picture of the glass diffuser before I cleaned it. As you may be able to see, the top of the ceramic plate is pretty green. Cleaning was based on the given info by Wings and tetratech, combined with the approval of Bensaf, a breeze. All looks very clean now and no fish died (so far) of bleach poisoning .

I also followed tetratech's example and angled the diffuser slightly by removing the bottom sucktion cup. The week will show if it makes a difference, but it looks like a little more of the bubbles are washed into the current.

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Diffuser



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Post InfoPosted 22-Apr-2006 23:43Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Here is an interesting picture that shows one thing, algae on decline. I cannot identify why the algae is reciding in this spot as it may have to do with the fact that I dripped Excel over it during last weeks water change.

Algae in the rest of the tank is at least not further increasing.

Photo: left was last week, right is now:

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Yeah Baby



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Now on to a few detail shots. Again tetratech served as an inspiration (I hope you see it this way as well tetratech, and don't brand me a copy cat ) and so I climbed on a chair and took some top shots of the tank.

Given the size of my tank it is impossible to cover it all, not even front to back fits in one picture. I guess I will have to remove a piece of the floor on the first floor so I can look straight down to the tank in the basement and make a full shot .

Anyway, here is the left side - front area - of the tank from the birds-eye view. From left to right, you see:

- A red Wendtii with Pearl Grass in front of it
- One small stem of Wisteria
- An open field with crypt Wendtii (small ones that never took off in the tank within the last 30 weeks), Lucens, and Lutea.
- On the right back is an Anubias leave and in the front the end of the big driftwood:


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Left Top View



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Here is the middle section of the tank.

All across the picture is the wood and one can also see the rock that holds it down.

Plants in the picture are:

Narrow Leaf Java Fern with Anubias Nana Petite in front of it, a Red Wendtii, some dwarf sags, and Pearl Grass.

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Middle from Top



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Here is the right corner of the tank from above.

On the left side you can see the remaining tiny group of Glosso that slowly starts to settle again. Behind it is a row of 3 Isoetes Lacustris. All ovehanging leaves are from Helferi, Crypt Retrospiralis, and the rather new Hygrophila augustifolia. The right corner in itself is filled with Pearl Grass (can you tell I really like that plant? ), with a small stem of Wisteria to the left of it.

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Right Corner from Top



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Post InfoPosted 23-Apr-2006 00:02Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Well I'm glad alage didn't dominate your posts today. Just let the plants grow and I'll withhold and scaping comments for a few weeks. I'm confident your put this algae thing behind you soon.

Yeah I like the overhead shots it gives a different prospective on the tank and it's interesting to see what's going on. The wisteria looks very clean and healthy so that should spread quickly and help out.

Did your diffusor come with those suction cups? I only have mine attache by the tubing and it keeps breaking away.

BTW - How come you haven't put the apistos in yet?

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On to some fish pictures

You guys and gals have to let me know when you have enough of seeing the same fish over and over again as I just like to look at them.

Here is a shot of 2 male Rainbows, unfortunately I couldn't get both with their full bodies in the shot.

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Male Dwarf Rainbows



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Here is a nice one where the Pearls seem to follow the lead of the Rainbow.

Where they are going though is beyond me

Maybe you remember some older shots of the male Pearl, but I can tell that he is becoming a grown-up. His finnage is getting longer and his throat more and more orange-yellow. He also likes the company of the female more than he did in the past:

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Pearls and Rainbow



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Now there will be two shots of the Apisto Pair. I assume that I will add them during this week to the tank, I am in no rush though. They also have truely bonded and I am sure that they would breed under the right conditions. Unfortunately I don't think that the 125 will be able to provide these conditions - too many fish

Here is a shot that displays the difference in size between the male and female

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Apisto Pair I



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And here is the second shot of the pair. This time the female is either telling her man to stay away or she shows him how pretty she is. I cannot tell which one is the case as we males misinterpret female signs by definition

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Apisto Pair II



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Last but not least, a good old Oto picture. Today I saw 5 of them (I have 6) for the first time in at least 3 weeks at the same time. With these guys you never know how many are still alive.

Here is one munching away on algae on my big piece of driftwood, just beautiful:

Attached Image:

Hungry Oto



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
I'll withhold and scaping comments for a few weeks
Thanks tetratech

Sorry, only now when reviewing my entries did I see your entry. I hope you are right about the algae issue being behind me at some point.

The Wisteria in the top shots are small cut off pieces from the 20G, the ones that I bought at the store a little over a week ago are further in the back as they are taller already.

The suction cups did not come with the diffuser. They are standard air hose cups and barely fit around the diffuser pipe. I also had the diffuser break away from the cups. If you look closely at the picture then you may see that I locked the bottom cup with a rubber band to the pipe, that seems to work. This cup is now on top of the pipe so the bottom can lean against the glass and angle the unit for a better of bubbles in the spray bar current.

The Apistos will most likely be added this week, I am not in a rush with that as they are doing just great in the QT and I am not sure if I would like to add more fish any time soon. Although, 8 Cories may be nice

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 23-Apr-2006 00:29Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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So Excel works great with a dirct hit to the algae. I found that out at work too!

That algae in the oto picture is nice looking stuff! You grow it very well I must say!

If you look at tetra's over head pictures compared to your what do you see? Way more plant mass in tetra's tank. I think that is probably his biggest differnce compared to your tank.

Want me to mail you so Sunset Hygro? I have a tank full it floating right now. Grows like weed!

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Post InfoPosted 23-Apr-2006 01:10Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Hi Ingo

I love your pics. I especially love the Apisto Pair.
they should breed under the right conditions. Unfortunately I don't think that the 125 will be able to provide these conditions - too many fish
That might be right. I have on order 2 pelvicachromis taeniatus Moliwe, which I was told are a rarer cousin of the krib (at least in Oz). They are still on their way to Oz. They had to be preordered & bought as a pair. I was told not to add them to my community tank, as the goal should be breeding and that a community tank will be too busy for success. You know I'm inexperienced, so I don't know if LFS is right or not, but LFS said they should be in a tank with only a few dither fish to give them confidence. My QT will become their home. I will still have another small QT (you might remember my thread about that). My community tank is almost stocked (only ottos to go). Therefore, I shouldn't need a big QT any more. I'm looking forward to seeing if I can breed them.

Cheers
TW
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Robyn and Wings,

I know we had talked about other stuff before, and I hope you remember the details, as I forgot. But I think it was mostly about your Krib cousins, Robyn.

So I have a new question: Do you folks think it would be advisable to prepare some form of case, like flower pot or something, before I add the Apistos to the main tank? If so, I guess less current in that area would be better and as such it should be on the right side of the tank, right?

Ingo


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Something you might want to try is sticking a flower pot in there but hide it under a bunch of rocks and plants. That way they have there hide out and you have more of a mound.

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and then cover that with anubias, java moss, or fern so you don't lose any of your plant mass.



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Post InfoPosted 26-Apr-2006 04:48Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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Ingo, I think some posts have disappeared - you gave me some good articles & links about those krib cousins.

Re: the flower pot. That's what I've read I should put in for my P.taeniatus Moliwe. Suggestions are to invert the flower pot, but firstly enlarge the water outlet hole to be just large enough for the female to enter.

Cheers
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Thanks guys, and gal, for the input
Suggestions are to invert the flower pot
Invert as in upside-down? I don't think I am going to do that. My tank and its inhabitants are way too much of a gunk producing machine and I believe the living conditions inside that pot would deteriorate rather quickly. Instead I intend to (if I use a pot) place it sideways, about half of it buried in the gravel. Also the pot should not be too deep. Enlarging the hole is a good idea though, I read some posts here (a long time ago) referring to fish that got stuck in these holes.

The next thought would have to be the exact position, meaning - where can I place this cave so that it can be covered with plants (as Matty said) without sticking out too much and at the same time allow me to look into the pot so I can see if there is anything moving in there? I still assume it would have to be on the right side, far away from the filter intake and in calmer waters. I will see what I can do.

Thanks again,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Apr-2006 11:04Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
Instead I intend to (if I use a pot) place it sideways, about half of it buried in the gravel

A clay pot in planted aquaria

Guess I now know the difference between planted aquaria and aquascaping.

Cichlid Central

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Well, I was using the clay pot more as a visual guide to a structure that is yet to be defined, if that makes any sense .

Conceptually, I believe that I would need something that has walls and a top, basically a clay pot (and no, I didn't yet "borrow" a pot from my wife for the tank and neither did I buy one).

Is that more scape like, tetratech?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Apr-2006 14:23Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Here is another idea for you. Get the pot and silicon your gravel to it. Then suround it by other rocks and cover them with plants as Matt said. This might help it fit in more.

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Post InfoPosted 26-Apr-2006 14:42Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
What do cichlids do in nature? Do they use clay pots that old ladies threw in the lake after their flowers die. Arrange something more nature or do what Wings said. If I see a clay pot on it's side in the aquascaping or planted aquaria forums I'm going to insist that the mods move all your stuff to Cichlid Central

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Post InfoPosted 26-Apr-2006 15:34Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Well, I don't think LF wants rotting leaf litter on the bottom of his tank, so that throws out the "do it like nature" idea

I think the clay pot can be pulled off pretty easily and effectively. Ya can't just leave it sticking up in the middle of the scape, that would look ugly. But if you lay it on its side with the mouth pointing towards the front of the tank or whichever area you want to view it from, and then bury half of it under the gravel so that only a "half moon" is sticking out of the bottom that should work. Cover it with moss or let Wisteria grow in around it. It'll be invisible in no time.

Or just let them find their own spot, which may happen anyway


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tetratech
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Well, I don't think LF wants rotting leaf litter on the bottom of his tank

Sounds good to me

There are many rocks you could use to create a honeymoon suite! Wisteria and clay pots. Talk about your "Weed Garden"



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Or just let them find their own spot, which may happen anyway
Which brings me back to the original question, which was like "do you think it is advisable to add a cave" (I wrote case, but that is what I meant)

So I guess in the interest of not having my thread moved to Cichlid Central, and in the interest not to upset my AquaScaping friends, I may just let them find their own territory.

In any way, what would be the chances of survival for any fry in this fish-invested tank ? Being really slow growers they run too many risks, being eaten, sucked into the filter, sucked into the drain during water change, and what not.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Apr-2006 15:50Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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If they're first time spawners it's likely that the parents will eat the fry before the other fish get a chance to.

After a couple swawns they may get the hang of parenting and a few might make it, but it's a crap shoot.

I am of the opinion that when fish start breeding in a community tank it's best to just let nature take its course and work from there. If they spawn and none make it, be happy that WC is good enough for them to spawn. If a few make it, you have some nice additions to your tank or some nice fish to sell. If you really want to breed them and raise the fry then a seperate tank would be best


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So I guess in the interest of not having my thread moved to Cichlid Central, and in the interest not to upset my AquaScaping friends, I may just let them find their own territory

Well I certainly appreciate that. I was about to direct you a site that sells underwater neon lights and those little divers that circle around the tank with an airline tube attached.

Hard to say if any wil survive. To be honest I think my rams might have given up after three attempts. Unless they are laying eggs in one of the seven layers of wisteria.
You could always cover the intake with a netting to help out. It also depends if your espei turn into little piranhas like my cardinals do when the see fry.


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I was about to direct you a site that sells underwater neon lights and those little divers that circle around the tank with an airline tube attached.



Oh goodie, yeah - I need that link. Are the neon lights blinking and moving around like a lighthouse beam? "Burn baby burn, disco inferno"



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Yeah the ones that burn the fish retinas so they spaz out and people think they are "dancing".

I honestly don't think hiding a clay pot or other such formation would be very hard in a 125 tank. The pot or similar structure wouldn't have to be very big, just enough for them to fit into. It would easily dissapear into whatever aquascape you wanted. Add some plant mass to the structure and it can even be mostly buried. I would think that it would be less bulky and eyecatching than a "natural" formation to make a cave.

That's all assuming that they could even find whatever you put in there for them. I'm not sure that apisto territories are as large as a 125.



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Post InfoPosted 26-Apr-2006 18:03Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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A good alternative to a flowerpot is a more natural looking ceramic cave like the ones they have at www.cichlidbreeding.com. I just bought a bunch of them for an African tank, and they really do look quite natural underwater, and could just as easily be hidden by plants and hardscape. You could even dispurse several of them throughout the tank so that they would have more choice of territories.

Hoping that there must be a word for everything I mean...
Post InfoPosted 26-Apr-2006 19:32Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Yeah the ones that burn the fish retinas so they spaz out and people think they are "dancing".


They really aren't dancing to the disco lights? Dang it! I guess its time to get that out of my tank. I have been hiding it from you guys behind my "thing".

Just remember LF this is your tank. You do what you want. I if you want to try to hide a pot then go for it. If you want it to have flowers coming out of it like a old lady through it in the river then have flowers coming out of it. Just make sure to use the old faded plastic ones.

But really... I don't think it would hurt anything to put in some "breeding" structure. They may or may not use it or even want to breed. Who knows really....

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Post InfoPosted 26-Apr-2006 19:48Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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LF already said he will "let nature take it's course" and not taint the courtship with an 1-800-FLOWERS BOUQUET.

If you guys had your way he'd end up removing everything and have a bare bottom breeders tank with a bunch of knocked over flower pots.

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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
illustrae - thank you so much, that is a nice link. Some of these structures look kind of weird, but the first one of the Breeding Cave section would be suitable, I think.

Wings - you are right, it is my tank. But I value your (your as in all FP members) input. If it wouldn't have been for you folks my tank would for sure not look like it does now. Come to think of it, maybe that would have been a good thing

Ingo

EDIT: Didn't see tetratech's input until I finished mine, so tetratech -


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Post InfoPosted 26-Apr-2006 20:13Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Well, everyone got very excited about the flowerpot thing.

I guess I'm still going to do it, but it won't be in my planted community tank, but in a separate dedicated tank for my P.Taeniatus Moliwe. I've found myself some aquarium safe clear silicone & I'm going to attach gravel in & outside of it & then tie some java moss to it. Or I might look around for a natural looking ornament cave that I can also hide with bunch of java moss tied to it.

I hope it won't be too much of an eyesore, but the main goal of this separate tank will be for my P.Taeniatus Moliwe to breed.

That should mean my 43.G log, without the contamination of a disguised flowerpot, should be allowed to stay in the planted forum.

Cheers
TW
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i think you should get a large peice of wood and drill it out to create holes and caves of the right size , very easy to do and you can have small openings with large caves behind them. also another good place to look for realistic looking rock caves is in the reptile section at lfs , my lfs lets me look through all the supplier catalogues at my leisure and the available range is huge.



cheers dan

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dan,

Nice idea with the drill wood idea. I like it!

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Post InfoPosted 27-Apr-2006 03:12Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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What do cichlids do in nature? Do they use clay pots that old ladies threw in the lake after their flowers die.




Do I need to say anything ? Sure you already know my opinion on having a claypot in there.

I do like the neon lights idea though And a disco ball


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Post InfoPosted 27-Apr-2006 03:42Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks all for the input

Robyn - quickly to your cave vision: I would not glue anything on the inside. What would that be good for? I would assume that the fish would rather lay their eggs on a flat surface.

Dan - I know you are the handyman and I have had the pleasure to see quite a few of your tank constructions (mattenfilter and tank background). I - on the other hand - do not only not have the tools but also don't really enjoy making things myself (as I know that someone in my house is breathing down my neck for any extra time that I spend on this hobby).

Bensaf - You made the 2000th post in this log. Sure not as spectacular than the number 1000 was, but still special.

I would like to use this chance to thank all people that have contributed in one way or another to not only drive this log but also help me to get the tank where it is now. Does that mean I will slow down? No way, I still have miles to go before the tank is done, if ever. Algae will have to be defeated, an aquascape has to be created, more fish need to be added ( - first I have to sell another 30 Espei though), and what not.

Thanks again to all of you,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 27-Apr-2006 11:30Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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ingo , when i was at high school i was very inept at practical things , but good at theory, didnt want to go to university so i decided to become a tradesman, best decision ever.
i would encourage everybody to look into it , as manual skills are just something you learn and really do give a feeling of achievement when you can do stuff around the house that looks good and satisfys (sp?) the need .

also in australia trades pay really well at the moment with the skilled labour shortage , i earn just on 6 figures a year for 40 hours a week and get to go home to have smoko and lunch each day . a pretty good wicket for 7 to 330 each day .


if you want work pm me ha ha ha


cheers dan



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also dont forget the mattenfilter was a complete failure , 150 dollars aus for foam that doesnt last a month




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Post InfoPosted 27-Apr-2006 12:40Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
What would that be good for?
Ok, I won't do it then. I only thought to do it, in case I don't invert, but instead put it on it's side and in doing so, the inner would be visible. Thought it would be less noticeable if it matched the general substrate, instead of standing out with it's clay pot colour. Maybe I'll look around for some kind of cave ornament/s instead, & completely wrap them in java moss. I like the drilling holes in wood idea too, but don't think I have time to find or soak the wood, before I have to bring the fish home. Most of the articles on the fish I'm getting, including those links you gave me (thanks), talked about greater breeding success using the pots, but none mentioned the gluing bit. Have to decide soon, as my fish have arrived in Oz now & are currently in QT (either with Customs or the LFS - not sure which).

And there'll be no pots or ornaments in my planted tank (just my natural rocks & plants).

Edit - Oh, forgot to say congrats on the 2,000 posts

Cheers
TW
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also dont forget the mattenfilter was a complete failure , 150 dollars aus for foam that doesnt last a month


Hate when that happens!

LF,
2000 post? is that counting the ones lost in action?

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Post InfoPosted 27-Apr-2006 15:27Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks all for the input.

Dan - nah, physical work is nothing for me . At least not anymore. You sure make loads of money, it seems like, althoug 6 figures could be 100,000 or 999,999 Auatralian Dollars .

Robyn - Don't worry about not having a cave in time for your fish to arrive. You can always get it later. Even if you would lose the first batch, there may be many to follow.

Wings - During the site update Adam removed all counts that were based on deleted entries. Also, the posts during down-time this week were also not counted as short threads that had about 6 entries showed 3 afterwards (I don't remember how many posts I lost in this log on that day).


New Topic: Does anyone already have the June TFH magazine? There is an article about Mr. EI himself, Tom Barr. It talks about his annual PlantFest trip and is very informative. There are also two shots that show the man himself, but I have to say he doesn't look like I expected. All shots are from far away and side or back, but he looks like a college kid (hope you see that as a compliment, Tom, if you should ever read my log). Bensaf, he has short hair like us, but he has more of it than we do together .

Just thought I share that,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 27-Apr-2006 17:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by tetratech
Bensaf, he has short hair like us, but he has more of it than we do together

You guys know what each of you look like. Oh I get it, one of those online dating services, right

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EditedEdited by NowherMan6
You guys know what each of you look like.


Hey, we only know what you look like with goggles and snorkel. When do we get to see tetratech's identity?


EDIT: LF, in the article are they critical of the EI method, or is it fairly unbiased. I know there is some opposition to it out there, but what is their take?


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Well how have to warm up to it.

Here's a pic of my pup and my foot:
A little bit of Scotland on Long Island



Attached Image:


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What tetratech, you still have snow out there?

Nice foot

NowherMan6, the article doesn't mention EI at all, it is all about Tom's annual trip thing. And if it would have mentioned EI it could not have been unfavorable as someone in the trip is the author (I think) of it .

Ingo

Ah, and you all know that Bensaf's and my picture are public here at FP


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Post InfoPosted 27-Apr-2006 19:53Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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What tetratech, you still have snow out there?

I think it's a nuclear winter. You know from all the L.I. landfills.



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Post InfoPosted 27-Apr-2006 19:57Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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No way there's still snow in LI, except maybe on the very top of all those garbage mountains in the LI landfills.

Cute Collie though...


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Post InfoPosted 27-Apr-2006 20:24Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Sure glad I just have to live next to the great lakes and not that crazy stuff out east!

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Post InfoPosted 27-Apr-2006 20:34Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by tetratech
No way there's still snow in LI, except maybe on the very top of all those garbage mountains in the LI landfills

The pic is from earlier in the spring.
Nowher's thanks for the comments on the pup. She's actually a shetland sheepdog (I know looks like a little collie) I think the breed was created by mixing a border collie and pomperian. This way they created a smaller dog that could herd on the ruggered hills of the Shetland Islands.



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Post InfoPosted 27-Apr-2006 20:39Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
tetratech, your pup is sooooo cute

Ah, and you all know that Bensaf's and my picture are public here at FP
Now I'm curious, what does this mean "public here at FP"

Cheers
TW
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Tetra, thougt it may have been one of those. Hard to tell when they're laying down, collie's have longer legs. I'm sure your girl has shorter legs.

TW, there is a thread in Recovery Room where many have posted their pictures - Bensaf and LF are amongst those brave enough


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Post InfoPosted 28-Apr-2006 02:00Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Thanks for the pup comments you two.
Yeah Nowher, I knew your probably thought it could be a sheltie. Yes she has short legs about 15" at the hips.

Since LF is going to turn this into Cichlid Central I guess anything goes. How does "Sheepdog Station" sound to you.

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Post InfoPosted 28-Apr-2006 03:12Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by bensaf
Nice dog, they call them Shelties in Europe.

That's your foot ? Seriously that is one girly foot It looks like the nails are manicured and polished ! My feet look like they've been beaten with a hammer everyday for the last 20 years !!!!.And they are hairy

It's not that me and LF are brave enough to post our pics, we are simply too good looking to keep the good stuff to ourselves. Got to share and let others enjoy, appreciate and generally bathe in our glory

Yeah, I know what Tom Barr looks like. He is quite young. For some reason people always imagine him as some old guy with a beard He's a pretty normal un-nerdy looking guy. He's into rock and plays the bass. Most of us plant geeks are surprisingly normal in the real world.

Reminds me of a thread on APC for plant geeks to post pictures of themselves. I have to say generally that plant geeks are a fine looking bunch of men. The wife saw it - took her a few days before she finally stopped drooling Hotties apparently. Maybe we should do a plant geek calender ! You know standing around in Calvin Klein undies holding our planting tweezers between our teeth, is that a piece of driftwood in your pocket or are you just pleased to see me kinda thing

OK, I think Robyn had to go lie down.

Don't think too many of them paint their toenails though


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Post InfoPosted 28-Apr-2006 03:54Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by Wingsdlc
Last time I checked guy, fish were not sopposed to be fuzzy or fury!

Edit: Wow Ben!

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Post InfoPosted 28-Apr-2006 03:57Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Get that calendar going guys

Be still my quaking heart...... I may be able to stand up again shortly .......

Cheers
TW
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The FP Plant Nerd Calendar 2007 is coming out shortly. Each month features another good looking gentleman showing off his equipment (planted tank equipment ). Some highlights are June featuring Bensaf with his small tweezers, April with Wings and his "Thing", October with tetratch cracking his whip, January with NowherMan6 and his dwarf gouramie, and December with LITTLE_FISH and his retrospiralis.



Ingo


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Wingsdlc
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LF,

I don't think I have ever laughed so hard!

55G Planted tank thread
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[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 28-Apr-2006 14:17Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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Let me know when copies are available. My equally nerdy marathon running girlfriends will all want a copy, so naturally, multiple copies will be required.

Cheers
TW
Post InfoPosted 28-Apr-2006 16:54Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Some highlights are June featuring Bensaf with his small tweezers, April with Wings and his "Thing", October with tetratch cracking his whip, January with NowherMan6 and his dwarf gouramie, and December with LITTLE_FISH and his retrospiralis


Not just dwarf gourami - pygmy croaking gourami. That's right, pygmy.

Also, shouldn't April feature Wings and his Giant Hygro instead?


Back in the saddle!
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bensaf
 
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pygmy croaking gourami. That's right, pygmy.


It croaks ? That must be embarassing


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
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hello little fish -

i skim thru yr posts every now and again, and may have missed some stuff on yr apistos, but here goes - re: breeding caves...

i breed a. cacatuoides regularly (in a community setup, so there's hardly ever surviving spawn) but i use film cannisters - as in the little black containers you buy film for your camera in. i drill a small hole in the base so water can flow thru (this only needs to be a couple of mm wide,it's not for fish access) and place them on their sides at a 30 degree angle or so, mouth down, surround and weigh them down with some small rocks, sprinkle some gravel over the rocks and bob's your uncle. they are inconspicuous because they're black, small enough for your female apisto's to enter and protect easily, and the male can still fertilise them either by entering if he's small, and as he gets bigger, fanning his milt into the cave. my tank is planted (not as densely as yours) and it used to really annoy me to take up so much ground space with clay pots, and they're ugly, and they are too big IMO for most apisto girls to protect in a community setup. my ale cack is about 3inches long (what a gorgeous beast he is) and his ladies are all half that size - and they all use the film cannisters in preference to the larger pots....

anyway, good luck with whatever you choose to do.
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Bensaf -

Jase - Thank you so much for the input, for two reasons. First of all your insight into breeding Apistos is very helpful. It appears that I would be able to add these film canisters at any point in time without having to mess with my aquascape at all, given their size. Secondly, I always like to hear from the people that usually just read (skim) through my log. It shows me that there is a greater audience than the people who normally post (although there is nothing wrong with them either ). Thanks


Well - Weekly Tank Update, Week 31

This week did not see any changes to the tank, no additions and no removals. I maintained my light and fertilizer schedule, also with one day of not feeding the fish. It appears to me as if the algae is slightly on the decline, I may be wrong though and this is only wishful thinking.

The weekly maintenance included quite a bit of trimming, which with the Star Grass is always worrysome as I have to remove them completely and replant the tops. This stirrs up quite a bit of gunk. A few other plants needed trimming as well, for example one major stem of the Alternanthera on the right tank side. Here it is before trimming:

Attached Image:

Alternanthera Growing Out Of Water



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This is a shot from last week, showing that the Star Grass reached the top already in a few spots. This was only one week after it was last trimmed. Without a doubt this plant, given its speed and volume in my tank, is the major nutrient sucker:

Attached Image:

Tank Last Week After Maintenance



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Now, this is a shot from yesterday BEFORE the water change and trimming. You can see how well the Star Grass has grown. It became so big that it shaded most plants in front of it, for example the Wisteria and the Crypt Wendtii. Also, the Hygro angustifolia has reached a significant height were large leaves started to float on the surface. Behind it you may make out that stem of Alternanthera:

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Tank This Weekend Before Trimming



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Here is a closer look at the middle section of the tank with the Star Grass group before trimming. I have to say that it looks very nice. But just look at the bottom right corner of the shot, there you see how shaded the lower parts of the stems are. These areas receive no light anymore and lower leaves die off, creating lots of gunk for the tank.

Also, do you like the Fish-Autobahn in front of the plants ?

Attached Image:

Star Grass Before Trimming



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Now here is a shot from this weekend after trimming. The Star Grass was removed and quite a bit of the bottom were cut off. This should give me about 2 to 3 weeks before the next trimming of it. Also, the tallest stem of the Hygro was cut off and replanted, I cannot afford to lose the fast growers at this time so I stuck the cutting in the middle of the Crypt group to the right of the Star Grass (almost invisible in this shot). It shouldn't be too hard for you folks to see where I placed the Alternanthera top

Attached Image:

Tank After Trimming - This Weekend



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Here is a close-up of the trimmed Alternanthera top. This picture could also be called "The Beauty and the Beast". The nice Alternanthera in contrast to the Thread algae on the driftwood and small amounts of BBA on the Crypt Retrospiralis leaves.

Attached Image:

Alternanthera Close-Up



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This picture shows how I add water back into the tank, which are over 60G, BTW. I used to simply hang the end of the vacuum into the water and let it fill up. This had the problem that with rising water level the vacuum end also changed position (from vertical to almost horizontal), changing the angle at which the water shoots out. This caused various taller plants to be washed around in the fill current and also stirred up some gunk under these plants.

Now I stick the end of the vacuum between the top of my thermometer and the glass of the tank. This way, the vacuum stays in the same position for the whole filling and no gunk is stirred up in the back. Also, and maybe even more importantly, I get the best reading of the temperature of the added water as it streams right by the thermometer.

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Refill Trick



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All I have left to show for now are two shots of the Espei school. In this one you can see that one of the fishies seemed to show an interest of what is going on in front of the tank. All others do what they always do, swim from left to right and back . Actually rather often than not they just hang in the current and wait until something eatable is coming their way, lazy gang.

Attached Image:

Espei On The Run



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LITTLE_FISH
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This is a similar shot than the last one. The main exception is that there is a Dwarf Rainbow regulating the traffic on the Autobahn. Or maybe she wants to cross but cannot find the gap in the rush hour traffic. Can you find her?

BTW, by now I am rather convinced that the loss of my duck weed can be attributed to the appetite of my fishies. I must have reduced its size too much and the remainer was not enough to outpace the speed by which they were eaten. I now see in particular the Rainbows (but also the Espei) nibbling on plants, lose leaves of the Star Grass are their favorites (also - the platies in the 29G much down all tips of a tall stem in less than a day).

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

German Autobahn At Rush Hour



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Post InfoPosted 30-Apr-2006 12:29Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Great photos Ingo. My camera can't take photos of moving fish - everything is a blur.

No doubt I'm wrong, but is your rainbow centre shot, facing the camera? If so, she looks a little cranky she can't find an opening to cross.

jase101, I like your film cannister idea. I have one now that my hubby drilled about 5 tiny little holes in (too little for fish to swim though, like you said). I'll get some more too & when I put them in my black gravel - you'll hardly see them (what with plants & what not). Great idea.

Cheers
TW
Post InfoPosted 30-Apr-2006 13:23Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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No doubt I'm wrong, but is your rainbow centre shot, facing the camera?
Right on Robyn, right on

Yeah, the camera is a bit fancy
NowherMan6 not only picked out the driftwood for this tank, he also was the one that suggested the macro lens for this camera. That is where the nice close-ups come from.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 30-Apr-2006 13:32Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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Cool photos. I only have a kodak easy share - which was all I ever needed before fish. Still, I have too many other things on the shoping list before I can think about a camera.

Cheers
TW
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Your tanks is looking great!

Glad to see the algae is on the decline.

Rick
See all my pictures at Google Web Albums
Post InfoPosted 30-Apr-2006 15:10Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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LF,

As always, super great pictures. I really wish I could take the close ups you do of your fish. I really like them.

I also love the color of your Alternanthera. Is the lower part of the plant that same color red? If not I am going to say that light plays a major roll in red plants to color up. I might try the tetratech more iron thing but I am pretty much sold the light is the number one red color producer.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Hi Ingo

I know this doesn't really belong in your log, but because we did talk about them here & I'm a bit sad about this news, thought I'd share it with people who'd understand. My imported fish I've been waiting for arrived in Sydney & were meant to be in QT with the shop. I spoke with LFS on Saturday past & arranged to collect my pair next weekend. Just got an email to say the female was DOA. I was waiting so long for these fish Decided not to go ahead with the male alone, cause who knows when they'll get another female. I've asked them to let me know when they have a pair next coming in.

Cheers
TW
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Thanks everybody for the input

Rick - Yeah, it seems the algae is slooooooowly on the retreat, although I am still holding my breath.

Wings - It is more the upper parts, but more accurately the younger leaves, that are red. I doubt that it is the light that causes this as the plant in the close-up was grown in the corner of the tank (back right).

Robyn - Sorry to hear about the female. While I was reading your entry I was hoping that you didn't make a mercy purchase and got the male by himself. This post is actually very fitting for my log as I have asked myself this question many times over: "What would I do if the female Apisto dies". These fish in area are rare and usually only offered as pairs. So having a single male would either mean he has to stay by himself or I have 2 males and one female (if I would buy another pair) - not a good setup. I am glad that you decided to wait for a new pair to arrive. And you really haven't been waiting for such a long time, it just felt like that because you were so excited to get them. Sorry again,

Ingo


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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
You're right, it wasn't that long - just a few days over 4 weeks. You're also right that I was excited about them - so that did make it seem like ages. I thought I was going to be pressured into buying the male - as that was the suggestion in their email, but LFS accepted it when I said I wanted a pair only. Only fair really, as they told me in the first place I could only buy a pair.

I hope there is someone out there in Sydney who has a lonely female, just waiting for a mate

They told me to contact their importer, to find out when & what dwarf cichlids he'll next bring in. Waiting for him to get back to me now. So, it's back to the drawing board for that tank. It will definitely be a tank dedicated to a pair of rarer dwarf cichlids in the hopes of breeding. Also forgot to tell you - it's not the same tank - but a new tank, only slightly larger (about 3.7G larger - but a better shape - long, rather than high)

Cheers
TW
Post InfoPosted 01-May-2006 12:47Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Also forgot to tell you - it's not the same tank - but a new tank, only slightly larger (about 3.7G larger - but a better shape - long, rather than high)
Awesome, MTS at its finest

When will we find out more about that new tank? I know that you probably will not set up another high tech tank, but you could always go with low light plants (and even medium) for a "normal" tank.

Honestly, recent events here might give me the chance to upgrade one of my tanks, so keep an eye open for a new thread here at the planted forum where I may ask questions about my options.

Thanks,

Ingo


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Honestly, recent events here might give me the chance to upgrade one of my tanks, so keep an eye open for a new thread here at the planted forum where I may ask questions about my options.

Go LF go!

Wings - It is more the upper parts, but more accurately the younger leaves, that are red. I doubt that it is the light that causes this as the plant in the close-up was grown in the corner of the tank (back right).

But it was still probably getting more light than the rest of the plant right?

55G Planted tank thread
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[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
I got this new 23.7G (long) tank because of issues with my QT 20G (high). See my thread http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/threads/28748.1.htm?1# for the reasons & maybe you can give me some advice about sterilizing that tank. The last straw was a platy death, less that 24 hrs after introduction. Death was more than likely stress related due to his move, but I lost faith in the tank. It was to have been the home for the imported cichlids (that are no longer coming) & I didn't want to risk putting them in that tank. In some ways, it's good I have extra time to get this tank planted, since the cichlids aren't coming now. I knew I wouldn't be allowed to have another tank set-up (electricity & water usage issues about that) so I arranged with LFS to do a trade-in. However, when I came home with new tank & told hubby what I'd done, he bought the tank off me for the trade-in price, but said it won't be set up for time being (I'd love to be able to set it up - but it's going in the garage for now). So, now that it's emptied I'm cleaning it out & asking for advice in thread mentioned above.
I know that you probably will not set up another high tech tank, but you could always go with low light plants (and even medium) for a "normal" tank.
It will be low tech, flourish excel & low light plants. I'll start a new log, but do you think it belongs in cichlid central - it will be planted, but it will eventually be home for some sort of imported dwarf cichlid. For the 1st time, the LFS who were importing the fish for me, are also importing ADA aquasoil & there is some sort of ADA package / mixture which includes power sand & other stuff which Amano uses in his planted tanks. As the tank may go high tech one day (who knows) I may as well have the right substrate in there from the get go. Although I have some cycling fish (platys) in the tank now, it has no substrate yet, waiting for LFS to confirm availability of the Amano substrates. Hope to get it this weekend. I'll empty the tank temporarily to add substrate & plants. So, what do you think - cichlid central or planted aquaria. There'll be no clay pots but there will be some film cannisters. If it goes in planted aquaria, I'd mainly chat about the plants, but still mentioned the fish here & there. I definitely have MTS. I now have 3 tanks running, my hubby has my old one (but it will be stored for now) & if I were allowed, I run down to the shop & buy 2 or 3 small ones for fry grow out. I'm about to post in my log about some new fry.

Can't wait for your new thread. Did you do some fancy talking or something?

Cheers
TW
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So, what do you think - cichlid central or planted aquaria.
- I don't think it would be too hard for you to guess my answer
Can't wait for your new thread. Did you do some fancy talking or something?
Fancy Talking - I don't even know what that is .

No, that is for real

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 01-May-2006 16:56Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Hi,
Generally speaking, you ought to post in which ever forum
you feel the "question" belongs. Tank Logs seem to
change topics, not subjects, as the thread matures and
the participants comment and question various entries.

To decide where to post the first entry, decide what is
the primary thrust of the Log. Is it going to be Cichlids
(are you going to specialize in one, or breed one) or
is it going to be aimed primarily at plants?

Keep in mind that many visitors will go to the forum that
pertains to their interests. For instance, I don't have
any cichlids, and so rarely if ever, visit that forum.

Frank


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Post InfoPosted 01-May-2006 20:03Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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Thanks Frank, at the moment I don't even have the cichlids & I don't know when I will, so at least to start off, I'm getting it ready for plants.

Cheers
TW
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EditedEdited by tetratech
Hi all,

Had some business to attend to in Florida and decided to take the kids to Universal for a few days. After riding the Hulk coaster 4 times I now know what a fish feels like when it get's sucked up the gravel wash.

Tank is looking good. Glad to see the algae is somewhat subsiding even if it's only in your mind. Keep with a steady schedule, high co2, less food, more thick groups and I think you'll be fine.

I really like the way the stargrass looks like a big mound in the BEFORE water change pic, can't tell if you've spread it even further from the center in the AFTER pic.
I think that mound with stargrass, wood and foreground can really be an amazing center piece of your aquarium especially with all those espei running through it. I know you post alot of fish pics, but those last ones of the espei are REALLY beautiful.



My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 02-May-2006 18:54Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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After riding the Hulk coaster 4 times I now know what a fish feels like when it get's sucked up the gravel wash.
And you had to pay for it as well

Keep with a steady schedule, high co2, less food, more thick groups
I am working on it

I really like the way the stargrass looks like a big mound in the BEFORE water change pic
Yeah, I liked it too. And you have no idea how tempted I was to place the Anubias in front of the Star Grass as they wouldn't mind being shaded at all (unlike the current plants in that spot). But I decided it is not the right time to mess with the tank again, instead I will wait until all is stable and then mess it up again .

but those last ones of the espei are REALLY beautiful
Oh thank you, I appreciate the compliment . Wanna have some Espei?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 02-May-2006 20:11Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by tetratech
LF,
I appreciate the Espei offer, but would have no place to put them with 17 cardinals holding tuff. If my cardinals start dropping I'll definitely take you up on it.

Bensaf,
Lighting can do wonders even for feet. Believe me my feet get no special treatment and have never had polish on them even in my college days when I was passed out in front of the "Porcelin Princess", but thanks for the compliment.


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LF,
So was bored tonight so I went through and looked for your picture! All I have to say is you look like the blues guy that rides my bus!

Oh and there are some cuties on this site.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 04-May-2006 07:03Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Hey Wings - so what's the name of the thread to look for?

Cheers
TW
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All I have to say is you look like the blues guy that rides my bus!

This fella must be really handsome then

Ingo


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Wingsdlc
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The post your picture thread ~ The recovery room

This fella must be really handsome then

Umm yeah.....and a little wierd. I think he works for WMU but I am not 100% sure. Anyways he is always on the bus with some really really big headphones(like the ones they would use in a studio) and grooving to the blues.

I was really expecting to see someone much older when I found your picture. It is almost weird now knowing what you look like.

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[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
I was really expecting to see someone much older when I found your picture. It is almost weird now knowing what you look like.
I guess I will take that as a compliment. You know that I know what you look like (although it is a while ago that I saw the picture). You in a pond/river having a banana - eh, bandana - on your head.

Ingo

EDIT: Ah - I didn't see that you bumped that thread with your own picture, but yeah, that is what I remembered.


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You know that I know what you look like (although it is a while ago that I saw the picture). You in a pond/river having a banana - eh, bandana - on your head.


Bandana? Its a ball cap on backwards half folded under itself. When I hooked into that fish I had a bunch of junk hanging around my neck and I had all I could do to get it off so I could fight the fish. Man I need to get back in there and hook another one.... maybe this weekend.

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Are you looking to get rid of some espei again? I wouldn't mind taking some off your hands but I am moving in about a week and don't need to worry about anything extra.

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I would post my pic, but I currently still have more hair than algae so I don't want to &nbsp; anyone off and then they'll take it out on my tank I just want to be loved

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but I currently still have more hair than algae


Well, you wouldn't need much hair as you have almost no algae

Me, on the other hand

Ingo


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C'mon Ingo, fess up. That is you with the big headphones bopping away to Depeche Mode

Check out the last post I made in this thread maybe of some interest to you guys.
http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/threads/28532.1.htm?0.09817231#259770


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
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You found me out, bensaf I confess, it was me

About your link, yeah - I read the "original" the other day, the one you refer to in your foot-note. I have to say it makes sense to me as well. Only problem is that you cannot see these tiny buggers waiting in yout tank for their chance to take over again .

BTW, this week so far seems to have more algae decline, although I start to discover more BBA, this time the tiny black beard on plant leaves, even on the Hygro angustifloia. I attribute this to the change in water parameters that on one hand seem to drive out more and more thread algae but on the other hand open the door for BBA. At least this type I can fight off with Excel, but I will wait a while to see how it goes.\

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LF,

Have you been useing Excel on this tank? I need to buy some more here soon that way I can use it once I move. I am getting a good amount of green spot on my plants. Not so sure the excel will help though...

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Wings,

Yeah, I have been using Excel twice (for a week each) on this tank, to fight off BBA, quite a while ago. I doubt that it does anything for (or against) any other form of algae.

I heard about people that frequently use Excel to avoid BBA in the first place, but I am currently not willing to try that out. There must be a way to stay BBA free without having to fight it with such extreme measures.

On to the usual topic for this time of the week:

Weekly Tank Update - Week 32

Not much, if anything at all, has happened during this week. I used the standard dosage of ferts that I am using for a while now. Further, I made it a consistent habit not to feed the fish on Fridays. Algae in the lowest regions has not changed, but interestingly the upper regions seem to have almost completely cleared up (with the exception of a few bushels of BBA).

The maintenance besides the water change this weekend was easy, I just trimmed a few longer stems off the Star Grass. Maybe I don't even have to replant that group next weekend as I think I gave it a strong cut last week and it may last for 3 weeks now.

I don't have many pictures to show this time, but here is a shot of the tank from last week, for comparison:

Attached Image:

Tank One Week Ago



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Here is the tank now from this weekend.

I have not trimmed the Ludwigia on the left at all, the fact that it hangs over the Anubias group is not a problem as these plants don't need that much light.

The Hygro angustifolia on the right is beginning to seriously shade all other plants in that area, I guess next weekend I will have to make some changes in that spot.

I am also considering of cutting part of my main driftwood block off. I figured I could easily remove a major section of the fat end of the branch. This way I creat more space for plants and also might gain something in the visual appearance of the tank. On the other hand, this means I first have to remove that monster and this scares me.

Here is the tank now:

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Tank Last Night



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Now here are two shots of the tank a little closer. I usually show the tank completely and real close-ups, so I thought some half-distance shots may be nice.

This is the area of the tank that once (a long time ago) was known as Rock Valley. Now it is home to various plants that begin to crowd each other. Also, take your time while admiring the graceful Pearls

Attached Image:

Right Off-Center



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And this is already the last shot for now, the left side of the tank.

It always seems like I have a particular unorganized plant collection on that side of my tank, like it is the repository for any plant that I don't know where else to put it .

In this small section I have about 12 different plants, like 3 types of Anubias, 4 types of Crypts, Pearl Grass, Wisteria, Ludwigia, Helferi, and Alternanthera. Plus, this is where a lot of fish like to hang out (maybe because I feed in this section and when they see me they always come there, even if I fed them just 10 minutes earlier).

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Left Tank Side Plant Mix



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hey looking really good!! love the log
wats the brown plant behind the pearl grass??
/:'
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
r0b3y,

Thanks for the compliment

The brown plant behind the Pearl Grass is a Crypt Wendtii Red (mother plant). I have not been too successful in the past with my crypt wendtiis, I guess because I always bought tiny ones and never left them in one spot to grow out (I have the tendency too change to much too quickly ).

But you see that there is a more reddish plant behind the Wendtii as well (just to make sure you know that this are two different ones). That is the Alternanthera.

Thanks again,

Ingo


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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Ok guys,

I don't have too much time right now, but if you are interested then details can follow later.

I just came back from the North Jersey Aquarium Society's fish and plant auction. What a huge event (and the first auction that I have ever been at). It was very interesting and loads of fish and plant where sold. I hade also the chance to chat again with two of the guys from my Planted Tank Round Table meeting at the LFS.

Here is a shot of the auction in progress. The stage in the back has tables all around, packed to the rim with mostly fish, but the right hand side were plants. The plastic bags you see in this picture is what was left after 3 hours of auction (about 30% I would guess).

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NJAS Auction



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Upon arrival back home I had to take out the Apistos from the QT to add them to the big tank (reason will follow). There were the easiest fish to net, they almost swam right into the net - or at least didn't run off. I wish the Espei were like that.

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Apistos being adjusted



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And they had to go because these 3 cuties moved in. 3 additional Neon Dwarf Rainbows, all male. I had to have them, and got them in the end for $16. Pretty much the price I pay for one at my LFS.

More will follow later, got to go back and add water to the bags

Here they are getting ready:

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Rainbows in Bag



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Ok, the Rainbows are in the tank now, I will continue the adjustment process for the Apsitos for at least another 15 min.

Here are the Rainbows (2 photos):

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Rainbows in QT I



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
And here they are again, I think the photos came out great (if I may say so).

The Rainbows are slightly younger than the ones in the big tank, as such I hope their integration into the main group should not cause any major issues.

Make sure to look at the updates on the previous page

Attached Image:

Rainbows in QT II



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And now the Apistos are in their new home as well. The male went right off on an excursion. Within 5 minutes he ate the first snail. I saw him pick it up and then munching around on it, then he dissapeared into the thickets and I got a little worried I may have to perform the Heimlich Maneuver on him . But he seems fine now.

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Apsito viejita II Male



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Here is another shot of him a little closer. What I find amazing about this fish is his ability to turn that black stripe under his eye (actually through his eye) on and off at will. I haven't figured out yet when he turns it on, I assume it is when he is showing off.

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Apsito viejita II Male Closer



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The female Apisto has her black stripe turned on the whole time, I only saw her without it when I got them initially. Interestingly, within the rather short time in the plastic bag for acclimatication all her yellow color went to a dull gray, but within minutes in the tank it all was back to normal.

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Apsito viejita II Female



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Here is the female again, this time showing you one of the plants that I bought at the auction. An Anubias Hastifolia. Looks very nice, for the time being I wedged it between wood and rock in front of the Star Grass.

Another plant I bought was an Anubias Barteri, but I am not going to show you a picture of it, I have too many of these already anyway

Attached Image:

Crypt Hestifolia



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The last plant I would like to show is the final purchase I made at the auction, tetratech's Blyxa Japonica. I got 6 of them, most with 2 plants per stem, for $10. The only problem I have with them is that the stems are really short and there seem to be no roots below. Anchoring them in the substrate was quite a hassle, I hope they stay down.

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Blyxa Japonica



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Last but not least, a new full shot of the tank. You can see the new crypt and if you look carefully you may be able to count all 6 Blyxa Japonica spread out along the front glass.

Oh, and no, the fish are not all at the surface because the Apistos chased them into that area, it simply was feeding time

Attached Image:

Full Tank With New Plants



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EditedEdited by tetratech
Yes, the pics are beautiful

So let me get this straight, your going to "remove that monster" and you've just added 5 fish of substantial size to your tank.

Either you don't believe that your heavy load is contributing to your algae situation or you really are a "Protist Collaborator"

Sorry to sound like a party pooper, but I really think you need to add another filter to your tank if you want to be so fish heavy. I would even think about getting a wet/dry or a sump.

EDIT: Didn't see last pic, very nice full tank shot.









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Gee, thanks tetratech for bringing me back to reality

I actually added only 2 fish, the Apistos. The 3 Rainbows are in QT for a few weeks. I am usually pretty good about maintaining the QT routine and have yet to fail it. And the female Apisto is barely any larger than one Espei . Yeah, the male is a little bigger, but hey - I seem to be getting my algae a little more under control and I also added more plants .

Thanks for the compliment on the pictures,

Ingo


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EditedEdited by r0b3y
ingo just a thought.. maybe try a good quality fluidised bed filter?? it will help out with the heavy stock load also it will not drive off any valuable CO2..

r0b3y
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Ingo,

I don't have much to add on the new plants, but your tank is looking very nice. Your apistos are also very cool. Good Job! /:'

Rick
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r0b3y

- Good idea, I will have to read more about these filters to identfy their distinct advantage over a canister, if there is one. The one problem I have with adding any additional filter is the increase in current in the tank. I would not like to see my fish having to swim for their lives 24/7. That is pretty much the main reason why I haven't done anything about that yet.

slickrb

- Thanks . Yeah, I like my Apistos as well, I am glad I got them. I hope they will have a nice life in this tank. BTW, it seems like they are zooming in on finding a new house in that tank. I made out two spots that they both visited multiple times last night. One happens to be the area under the driftwood chunk on the left. So much about cutting that part off . The other area is a small gap between a rock and a small piece of driftwood to the right of the main group, just big enough for both to fit in, but it doesn't have a roof so it may rain in ().

Thanks to both of you for the input, I appreciate it,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 08-May-2006 10:52Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Your tank, as always, is beautiful. But those rainbows you have in QT are just gorgeous. Is it a trick of the light, or are they really that beautiful purple colour.

Cheers
TW
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Good observation on the color, Robyn

It is a combination of the "rainbow" effect of their sides (which usually are blueish at the right angle, otherwise silver) and the fact that I put my old 2x20W All-Glass T12s back over the tank. That was done because the existing bulbs are at the end of their live span (I see the tenellus not doing to well) and I haven't had the chance to get new bulbs yet.

So the color spectrum of these lights and the shimmering effect of the fish both contributed to this color effect (and maybe the camera settings as well), but I did not retouch the image.

Thanks for the compliment,

Ingo


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Great pics, LF Very very nice

I also just planted a few stems of blyxa in my 4G, in ADA substrate - we'll see if the substrate makes any differencein growth. I know what you mean with the roots though, they were hard to keep down.


Back in the saddle!
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tetratech
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also just planted a few stems of blyxa in my 4G, in ADA substrate - we'll see if the substrate makes any differencein growth.

Makes sure that Blyxa get's lot's of light. It will not tolerate shade. I'm still deciding whether I want to add a foreground light to my tank.

BTW - Nowher when do we get to see this nano-paradise. I did scrap my plans or a scaped nano in lew of the reef I am planning...

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ingo, a FBF would be supplimentary to you rexisting filtration , you could have it in the return to your tank if the pump in your existing filter is strong enough. they need to have water that has already been mechanicly (sp?) filtered first or they will clog up. i have mine setup on my sump.
are neon rainbows really $16 us each.
they are $3.50 aus or something like that over here, you must have thought i was showing off when i bought 20

OH TOLEEDY!
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Thanks guys for the input

NowherMan6 - I don't know about ADA and Blyxa, but the guy I know who uses ADA soil says his Hair Grass really took off (he only uses the soil, not the power sand). And thanks for the compliments on the pictures, courtesy of your suggested macro lense .

tetratech - I know a foreground light would be a pain in the neck, but it may be worthwhile. I am sure your Riccia would profit from it as well. I guess this is one of the very few disadvantages of a bowfront.

Dan - Yeah, Rainbows are rather expensive in the LFS where I usually buy fishies. For that, their live stock is in much better shape than any store in the whole area. Adult Neon Dwarf Rainbows cost $20 (US), young ones, like the ones I have, $13 (US), and that does not include tax yet.

Thanks again,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 08-May-2006 15:39Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I know a foreground light would be a pain in the neck, but it may be worthwhile. I am sure your Riccia would profit from it as well. I guess this is one of the very few disadvantages of a bowfront.


My situation is further complicated by a tall center and the thick wood. When the center is short I see better growth from the riccia, but yes you are right definitely a disadvantage of the bow in terms o direct light contact.

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I guess this is one of the very few disadvantages of a bowfront.


And don't forget the inability to take pictures from certain angles with certain lenses because of diffraction - my next tank will NOT be a bowfront

tetra - has your blyxa taken off at all in your 12G with more diretc light? don't want to go too off topic in LFs log but I think the info is beneficial to both of us


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tetra - has your blyxa taken off at all in your 12G with more diretc light? don't want to go too off topic in LFs log but I think the info is beneficial to both of us

Nope, samething comatose. The 12g only has 2.2wpg so maybe it's just not enough on a small tank even though direct.
One good thing is it doesn't die, it just doesn't grow, but you won't get that rich spectrum of color when it's really in optimium conditions.

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Post InfoPosted 08-May-2006 16:07Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Nice pics there Ingo, nice fish too. I should upgrade my camera, but that's definitely not in the budget, especially since I'm thinking of upgrading both plant and reef tank soon.

Glad to hear the algae seems to be diminishing.

I wouldn't worry about the extra current from another filter. Cannisters have pretty slow flow due to their ability to do more filtration at once. I don't think your fish would suffer from another, maybe smaller, cannister. That's your call though on what you think was/is/has been causing the algae. I wouldn't add a wet/dry though due to the amount of aeration that usually causes. You'd have a hard time keeping CO2 up IMO.



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Post InfoPosted 08-May-2006 16:48Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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Talking about right conditions of the light:

At the NJAS auction I also met someone who has the same tank than I do and also the 4x96W light unit.

I forgot the details (silly me), but his schedule is sonewhat like running the lights for a total of 9 hours per day, during 6 of which all lights are on, and the earlier part he has one half only and the later part the other half only. That is the guy who auctioned off my Blyxa, so maybe in order to keep it happy I will have to shorten my overall light period (currently still 11h) and lengthen the intense ligh period (currently 3h).

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Post InfoPosted 08-May-2006 16:48Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Matty,

Sorry, I didn't see your entry until I posted mine. Thanks for the compliments on photos and fish

Yeah, I was never considering a wet/dry as I know about its CO2 removing abilities.

The current of my Eheim 2028 is pretty strong, this becomes more obvious when I feed the fish and the food drops down. I was thinking of creating a counter current from the other side of the tank (with a secons filter) but that would most likely mean (I guess) that I also need a second diffuser on that side as the current generated there would not let the bubbles from one side come over there.

Maybe I have to sell way more of my Espei to solve the problem.

Thanks Matty,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 08-May-2006 16:55Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I wouldn't add a wet/dry though due to the amount of aeration that usually causes. You'd have a hard time keeping CO2 up IMO.

Matty you know more about sump mechanics than I do, but couldn't your put a diffusor under the return pump of the sump (wet/dry) to return any lost co2 to the tank. So in effect you would have an inline reactor as well as an in tank diffusor.

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Post InfoPosted 08-May-2006 18:11Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by mattyboombatty
Looking at the system this way:

Return(CO2 in) ---> display(High CO2 Conc.) ----> overflow(CO2 Diffusion due to aeration) ----> sump(low CO2 Conc.)

That might appear to work. If the flow through the wet/dry was slow enough it might in fact work, meaning that after the reactor in the return line CO2 rich water stays in the display for a greater period of time than the wet/dry, creating differential. However, that would mean that water is in the display for a longer period of time, and not in the wet/dry, thus making the filtration pointless because no water is being filtered. Sometimes refugiums are set up this way so that water flow is only 1X or less turnover through the fuge so the DSB and macroalgae can pull out every bit of nutrient from the water. Dirty water in, clean water out. The fact that there is a large difference helps the cause. In this case it seems to work because the goal is extraction of waste to plant or algae or anaerobic bacteria mass. The opposite of trying to add carbon into the system and a completely different method of filtration. Water can only be on the bioballs for a certain amount of time, no matter the flow....gravity here. I suppose if you had a huge column of bioballs it might work(fully extracting ALL ammonia in one pass).

However it doesn't work that way in a small system, and unfortunately you can't look at the system in its components, the difference in composition of water anywhere in the system is very very small, given there are no dead spots(which is what the wet/dry or fuge would have to be called in the above hypothesis). You have to look at the system on the whole generally and therefore you will most definitely have to increase CO2 to balance out the diffusion due to the amount of surface area exposed to the air in a wet/dry. No matter how you do it, more CO2 in the display or more at the return of the sump, way more CO2 will need to be put into the system.

A large system is a different story. There probably will be differentials in water composition between the sump and display if you have a thousand or two gallons in the display and the sump is remote and large as well. Heck, there would probably be slight differences in water composition on the left and right and top to bottom of the display. Flow would probably have to be slower through a system like that and would mostly rely on the huge amount of water to stay clean.

I think I managed to even confuse myself there a bit.



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Post InfoPosted 08-May-2006 20:58Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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Matty you know more about sump mechanics than I do, but couldn't your put a diffusor under the return pump of the sump (wet/dry) to return any lost co2 to the tank. So in effect you would have an inline reactor as well as an in tank diffusor.

If you look around on the planted forum there is a guy with a 200 some gallon tank running a system like what you are talking about.

BTW I leave for the weekend and all this happens! I am so far behind. I guess I should probably take a little brake from this place any ways. Never get things done!

Great pictures! Your fish look quite happy in their new home.

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Post InfoPosted 08-May-2006 23:18Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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If you look around on the planted forum there is a guy with a 200 some gallon tank running a system like what you are talking about.


I'd wonder if he could possibly get 30ppm of CO2 in his tank. Maybe, but I'm sure that he's wasting a lot of CO2 to do so.

If it's not a high light setup then there's really no need to have so much CO2, and you can get away with whatever filtration you want.



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Post InfoPosted 08-May-2006 23:27Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks Matty for all these details

I am not surprised that you even cofused yourself on that one . Basically, I am not into the sump idea anyway. There are too many reasons (even besides the CO2 issue) that stop me from seriously considering such a filter, for example maintenance, cost, water evaporation, and space.

Being in the process of setting up yet another tank I would like to not overcomplicate this one anymore. Maybe for the time being I can just wing it and later throw about 20 of the Espei into the new 40G (and start the same problems there, ).

Thanks again,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 09-May-2006 13:15Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Matty,

Makes alot of sense. I never said it was going to be efficient, but it sounds like it would supply the tank with enough co2.

LF,
If you don't want a sump I would go with this. I think it's the largest canister on the market.

http://www.hagen.com/usa/aquatic/product.cfm?CAT=1&SUBCAT=107&PROD_ID=01002180020101

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Post InfoPosted 09-May-2006 23:14Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks tetratech for the link, that sure is some monser filter, for up to 400G tanks. I couldn't find it at Big Al's and I wonder how much it costs (and quality).

Anyway, I think I first will try to see if I can reduce my stocking somewhat. Maybe that is all that is needed.

Hey tetratech - I bumped into somebody who says that the Eco in her tank caused the ph and hardness to climb (from ph 7 to 8), did this happen to you as well?

Thanks again,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 09-May-2006 23:37Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Been reading

Brain hurts

pretty fish

not dead plants (see my tank)

all Good LF!

love GFG

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Post InfoPosted 10-May-2006 01:46Profile Homepage Yahoo PM Edit Delete Report 
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GFG

Thanks for the compliment, and sorry about the brain hurting

Haven't seen you in a while, and where would I be able to read about your current tank issues.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 10-May-2006 14:00Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Hey tetratech - I bumped into somebody who says that the Eco in her tank caused the ph and hardness to climb (from ph 7 to 8), did this happen to you as well
?
I don't remember that happening, but then again I've been running co2 heavily so I probably wouldn't have noticed.

ph 7 to 8 sounds pretty drastic to me.


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Thanks tetratech,

In the meantime I read a few posts where people claim to have rather significant increases in their ph, but other posts completely dismiss this notion. I guess it is one of these things where opinions are wide spread.

I have a tank issue:

I notices what appears to be a much slower growth on the Star Grass. In addition, last night I noticed some leaves on new growth turning thin and melting. Now, I have read that this is caused by a sudden lack of Nitrate (On the APC site in the plant profile). I haven't measured my Nitrates, guess I will have to do that tonight. I would be really surprised to find my tank having low nitrates, although I haven't increased my dosage, but 1.5tsp every other day should be enough, I thought. Maybe the overall number of fast growers causes it to be sucked up much quicker.

Does anyone have any idea what else may cause this problem?

Thanks in advance,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 11-May-2006 13:32Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Sounds like no3 deficiency. If the light and co2 are up to speed I would dose even more especially if mass is increasing. I learned the hard way when that happened to my stargrass. The wildcard in my situation was that I was cutting the tops all the time, but in your case your replanting them. For the longest time I was dosing 1/2tsp no3 and when I felt the mass was really full I starting dosing 5/8 to 3/4 tsp.

I believe Amano increases dosing as plant mass increases.




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I believe Amano increases dosing as plant mass increases.


Only really makes sense. I am wondering if that is why I am starting to get some green spot.

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Thanks you two,

I will make sure to measure tonight. It would really surprise me though.

What I think I may find is an unproportionally high amount of Phosphate as I have been doing it now for a few weeks in the recommended dosage (1/8tsp 3 x per week). Last time I did this I ended up with 10ppm.

So, maybe it is more of a proportion issue than a plain lack of Nitrate.

Will keep you posted,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 11-May-2006 18:02Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Well,

Just measured the N and P:

- solid red in the N, meaning 40++ppm
- dark blue in the P, meaning way more than 5ppm

Now, as I said earlier I expected the P to be rather high, but the N is a big surprise.

Of course I have no idea what to make of this, as usual.

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Post InfoPosted 12-May-2006 00:35Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Of course I have no idea what to make of this, as usual.


LF,
You are not the only one. I tested my N today too and it was in the same ball park as you with 40ppm. I am not even sure I want to dose tomorrow being the tank is going to be taken down in on Monday.

I think we need Ben to let us know whats up. Chances are he will yell at us first for using test kits!

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I went and took a comparison shot of the tank to actually see if there is any growth. And I do have growth, but there are these two Star Grass tops melting. I also see some black tips on them which supposedly is from a lack of micros.

Here is a shot with Today at the bottom and 5 days ago:

Attached Image:

Comparison



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Post InfoPosted 12-May-2006 01:18Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by tetratech
LF,

Did you dose macros today? If yes, your probably looking at the peak of buildup for NO3 as well as the test kit being off by as much as 20ppm. I've contacted several attorneys about class action lawsuits against test kit providers.

So your no3 could be averaging 20ppm and your po4 2 or 3.
The idea behind EI is that it doesn't stay high for long, because the whole system get's flushed anyway every week.

From the pic your stargrass looks O.K. Maybe a closeup would be more revealing.



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Post InfoPosted 12-May-2006 02:51Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by bensaf
The high numbers in and of themselves are not an issue. They'll be reduced when you do water change anyway.

The real question is why are they that high ?

Sounds like something else is limiting the uptake of N and P. Don't forget if one thing is limiting then uptake of all others stop until the limiting nutrient becomes available again.

Do the usual, check Co2, up the micros in case one of them is short. Especially check GH. GH is one that's often overlooked when it comes to plants and is very vital. Really needs more attention then it gets sometimes. Calcium and Magnesium are vital. Especially Mg , which can cause some funny problems.

It can tricky sometimes. A plant can show a symptom of a lack of a nutrient, even though you know you have plenty of that nutrient there. I.e the Stargrass showing like N dificient, this usually indicates that something else is lacking and preventing the plant from utilising the available nutrient.

Usually something like a Mg deficiency will appear as something completely different and send you off on wild goose chases.

A close up of the affected Stargass would help a lot.


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Post InfoPosted 12-May-2006 04:09Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks for the input,

Sorry, a close-up will have to wait until tonight as all is dark now in the tank (4:30 AM).

I had a feeling about having another nutrient being a limiting factor (I guess I am beginning to understand) and even without your advice I added 50ml of TMG instead of 40ml (yesterday it was micro day, so macros have last been added the day before).

Over the last few weeks I also increased my weekly input of Equilibrium, from formerly 1/2tsp to almost 2tsp. I haven't measured the GH though ever since doing this.

Neither have I measured KH or CO2, I guess KH is around 4, but I will measure tonight.

Thanks for the input and thoughts,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 12-May-2006 10:41Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Well guys,

On with the Star Grass Saga:

The photo below shows one of the two effected stems as good as possible. The red arrow points to the yellowing (dying) stem, the yellow arrow shows you how thin the leaves are.

I also measured some values:

It appears as if my KH is almost 5 (upped the baking soda dosage over a few weeks)
Also, my GH seems to be close the 5, that is at least when the test liquid turned from a pale yellow to a pale green.

Here is the shocker, my ph seems to be 7, giving me a CO2 of 15ppm. I have cleaned the diffuser for the last time almost 3 weeks ago (tomorrow), can that be it? The bubble count appears to be the same as always, now I went ahead and cranked it up a notch.

Attached Image:

Star Grass



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Post InfoPosted 12-May-2006 23:37Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by tetratech
Here is the shocker, my ph seems to be 7, giving me a CO2 of 15ppm


That would explain uptake limitation, but I defer to my master

EDIT: LF There is a good discussion on APC concerning the trend toward higher C02. There are many advanced aquarist discussing the whole fishload thing as well. I must admit I never saw this tread until now, but I feel like it supports my argument about fishload and algae, especially when there is abundant light.

co2.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/general-aquarium-plants-discussions/16678-why-trend-towards-more-more-co2.html

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Post InfoPosted 13-May-2006 00:33Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks tetratech for the link

I didn't see it until now as I assumed there were no new entries in my thread for the last almost 2 days and as such didn't open it. I will read up on the link content after I do my weekly thing (as I have done something towards higher CO2).

Weekly Tank Update - Week 33

The last week had no major events, my focus was mainly on the order of items for the soon-to-be-coming 40G tank. Only on the side did I notice that 2 stems of the Star Grass were withering away and when I finally dug out the test kit I noticed a very low CO2 concentration, and going with it a high level of nutrients.

There are multiple options of why that would be, one of which is that the diffuser - which hadn't been cleaned in almost 3 weeks and also loses a lot of bubbles that bypass the spray bar and reach the surface straigh up - is not working as expected. I decided to tackle this as the cause and the following pictures will show my changes.

Another thing that needed change was the right tank side where the Hygro angustifolia started to shade all smaller plants in the foreground and the heavily water rooted Alternanthera in the background (which had been trimmed a few times before).

Here is the tank last weekend:

Attached Image:

Week 32



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Post InfoPosted 14-May-2006 12:18Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Now here is a picture of the tank from yesterday before I made any changes. One observation I thought I made during the week was a reduction in growth, but when comparing the shot from last week to this one it seems that growth is actually pretty good. The Star Grass and the Hygro both have gained a few inches, and so did the Ludwigia on the left:

Attached Image:

Tank before Changes - This Weekend



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Here is the tank now after my changes. I completely removed the Alternanthera (2 stems) from the right way back, you couldn't see it there anymore anyway. I cut off a few shoots from that root mess and planted them all over the tank so they can grow out in better light. Next, I moved the Hygro in the back on the right, I had to redo it once as the left stem cramped the right stem too much.

I separated them with a Helferi that I placed between them. Furthermore, I removed the Pearl Grass from the front right and gave it a good trimming (bottoms cut away) and replanted them in that spot.

Given that this process for sure stirred up some gunk I decided not to further upset the tank and left all other plants alone, hoping the Star Grass can handle one more week before it needs trimming.

Attached Image:

Week 33 - Yesterday



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The next two pictures show you the tank in halfs. First, the "new" right half with the set-back Hygro. Its shade is over a grouping of Green Wendtii and I think it will not hinder that plant's growth. I noticed that the Espei like to hang out in the stems of the Gygro now, usually they did not mingle on the right tank side too much.

In the right front you can see some of the Alternanthera cuttings, I know I will have to replant them somewhere else once they grow taller. Also, you can see some of the Blyxa in the foreground. All week long I had to re-root at least 2 of them every day as these suckers really love to float up.

Attached Image:

Right Tank Side



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
See full tank shots and more on bottom of last page

This is the left sideof the tank, basically untouched in a while with the exception of the addition of Blyxa stems and cutting from the Alternanthera.

I really like the look of the overhanging Ludwigia, creating some shade for the Anubias below and developing some nice water roots that look like a curtain.

This picture also reveals my action towards CO2 improvement. Besides cleaning the diffuser (not visible on the left) I added a very small Rio power head (Rio 50) just below the spray bar and straight up from the diffuser. A lot of bubbles now are actually sucked up into the power head and pushed to the right side of the tank. From the ones that bypass the power head most are caught by the spray bar and pushed over as well. The percentage that reaches the surface right away had been greatly reduced.


Attached Image:

Left Tank Side



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Here is a close-up from the output of the Rio pump. You can see the large amount of bubbles being washed over the Ludwigia Hanging Garden.

I finished my water change yesterday at around 1PM. By 8PM I measured some tank values (remember that I cranked up the CO2 a little the night before):

- A ph of about 6.6, if not less (but not 6.4)
- A KH of around 5

Now, this gives me at least 38ppm of CO2. I guess I will have to keep a close eye on the tank today as it is the first day where I add CO2 in this fashion for the full time.

Attached Image:

CO2 over Ludwigia



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Now a change of topic

Yesterday afternoon we had to go to Petco and buy some kitty litter. Of course, as usual I was perusing the fish isle, usually not really a delightful event. Well what can I say, I came across one tank, looked at it for a few minutes, and ended up with this:

Attached Image:

New Fish



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Post InfoPosted 14-May-2006 12:45Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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In this tank were a bunch of German Rams (plus other fish), all on the smaller side. In the center, in the hole of the one rock that was in the tank, was a female. The male was behind the rock and chased away any other Ram that came near.

I typical chain store fashion, when I started to explain to the sales person which 2 fish I would like she already ripped open the top cover of the tank, causing the female to flee to the group of rams and losing almost all color instantly. Got me rather mad, I have to say. I think I was able to identify her again, but I cannot be sure. They seem to get along well though.

I am not really scared that this experiment may not work out (some may remember that I failed with German Rams once before) as I paid much less for both of them together than I paid of one in the LFS. Also, I think I know more about SA cichlids now (see my Apistos). Nevertheless, it is a major gamble

Here is a close-up of the male a few minutes after the 2 hour transition phase:

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Male German Ram



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He had never completely lost his colors, but didn't stay like this either while being transported. Compared to the last pair I had these are rather small.

Here is another shot of the male, forgive me for not cleaning the side glass pannel of the tank, I didn't expect visitors.

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Male German Ram II



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Here is a shot of the female. She lost all her color during the transport, became a dull gray with black spots on the sides that almost formed a completed line from head to tail. At that stage I wondered if this is even a Ram. I also thought that she may be a Bolivian.

Once she was released she started to regain some color:

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Female German Ram



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Last but not least, here is another shot of the female.

One can start to make out the dots in the finnage at this picture. I find it very interesting how these fish, including my Apistos, can turn coloration on and off. I doub't that they have the ability to trigger different colors on demand, but the involuntary changes are a good way to communicate what is up with them.

My male Apisto, for example, turns the black bar through his face on when he is not secure.

That is it for now,

Ingo

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Female German Ram II



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Post InfoPosted 14-May-2006 13:00Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Good luck with the rams this time around. They both look like nice specimens.

Cheers
TW
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Tanks is looking good I think your on a good path. I particular like the left size. You didn't mention algae so I'm hoping it is being minimized.

Hopefully this time around the Rams will do better.

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Post InfoPosted 14-May-2006 17:32Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Untitled No. 4
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I really hate to say that, but as far as I can see from the pictures both are females but I hope I'm wrong.

Cheers.
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Thanks everybody for the input

Yeah, I totally forgot to mention the algae. In that department it seems like the BBA is a little advancing while the thread is stable to less.

Untitled No. 4 - Nice to hear from you again .
I have a thread going HERE where I actually question the male/female issue as well, but my spin is that both appear male as the smaller one chases the larger one away. What makes you believe they both are female. I seem to identify the 3rd elongated dorsal ray in the one I labeled male (above), but not in the other. Also, both are small and the "potential" female is even smaller, maybe 3/4 to 1 inch. Thanks for any info you can provide.

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Post InfoPosted 14-May-2006 23:43Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Untitled No. 4
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EditedEdited by Untitled No. 4
There are few ways to identify male rams from female rams and the ray extension is one of them, but it doesn't mean that it is the only way or that it's 100% accurate.

A picture of a female ram

That one fish is a good example as by the ray extensions point out to it being a male while it is actually a female. I'm quite sure as I've seen her spawning a few times.

The pink belly can also be helpful to sex them as males will never have a pink belly, but it doesn't mean that females have them 100% of the time, so if a fish has a pink belly it means it's a female. If it doesn't, it doesn't say that it's 100% a male. Same with the blue specks on the black spot. A male will never have them, a female will usually have them.

Moreover, when the there is a group of males only, the dominant male will supress the rest of the males and they in turn will acquire female traits. When only females are present, the dominant female will chase the other female and will acquire male traits.

In any case, I think that both are females just because it looks like a female. It's hard for me to explain exactly what about it looks like a female but it's something with the head and the body shape. But still, I might be wrong.

And for comparison, a picture of a male ram.
Post InfoPosted 15-May-2006 00:28Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Untitled No. 4

Thanks for the quick reply. I spent the meantime with taking more shots of them and maybe this can shed more light on the situation. I am utterly confused by now and lost all faith in sexing them, your entry supports that with the male taking on female trades and vice versa.

Here is the situation, the smaller and less colorful chasing the larger and more colorful Ram.

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The chase is on



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Now here is the best shot I could get of the more colorful one (also bigger), formerly identified as male. The first 3 rays of the dorsal fin are shortest, shorter, and normal. The black dot on the side shows in its outer parameter blue speckles, maybe indicating a female. Also, maybe the rounded end of the dorsal could indicate a female.

Overall, I have no clue

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More Colorful one



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Here is the smaller and less colorful one. Dorsal fin tip similar to the other, although length difference in the rays is more ounced. This one also displays blue speckles in the outer perimiter of the black spot, and the rounded end of the dorsal fin.

Somehow I was under the impression that:

- If both fish are the same sex than the dominant would be the more colorful one
- If the are of different sex then the dominant fish would be the male

My latest logic implies (and I may be waaaayyyyy off) that the small one is a male and the larger a female.



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The Other One



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Post InfoPosted 15-May-2006 00:52Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Untitled No. 4
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* The dominant fish would be more colourful unless genetics make it duller.
* Dominant fish can be female too, especially with cichlids. The female might challenge the male's strength to see if he's a good breeding material and if it's weaker than she is she will chase him out of her territory. One thing female rams can't stand at all are weak males.
* I'm still pretty much convinced that both of your fish are females though.
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Untitled No. 4,

Thanks again for the reply. I think I could handle 2 females better than 2 males, as this always allows me to add one male later on (no space right now). Let's hope that any fighting will not conclude in one being so stressed that it would die, the 20G should leave enough space for both, I hope.

I guess that is why Apsitos give you much less trouble, there is no way to confuse a male with a female .

Thanks again,

Ingo


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Untitled No. 4
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They both should be fine in 20 gallons, especially as it's well planted and the submissive one will have enough places to hide. They also should calm down when they realise they living in autpian tank without males and will form an alternative community for female rams only.

Apistos can be confusing as well, by the way. I've had a few sent over to me from a breeder a long time ago and he sent me two males and four females. I've divided them into two tanks with one male and two females per tank and only after a while I found out that what I thought was a male was actually a female. Sometimes when they come from a good brood the females are so colourful and nice that when juvenile it is easy to confuse them for being males.

Also, I just remembered that it's being said that rams bred in the far-east are being given hormones to appear more colourful which might make males look like females, so you still might have a male in there somewhere.

I wonder if that makes your fish transvestite (assuming it is a male)?
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I don't know, guess I will have to wait until he undresses himself to find that out.

Untitled No. 4 - thank you so much for the input, you know that I have always highly valued your comments (and that since almost one year now)

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 15-May-2006 18:21Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Untitled No. 4,

It's been a long time since you've joined our friendly little discussion group. You seem to have alot of experience with both fish and plants, but I realized I've never seen one of your setups. Can you treat us with a pic of one past or present?



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Post InfoPosted 15-May-2006 22:56Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Untitled No. 4
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EditedEdited by Untitled No. 4
Tetratech,

There are a few things that I have quite an experience with and one of those things are rams. I have kept rams for a while now and I know a serious breeder and everything I know comes from him. Regarding the male/female situation, I look at a fish and tell myself "oh, nice male/female" without even thinking about it. They just look different.

As for plants, my first planted tank was when about 16 years ago or something but I was a kid and it was just a tank with plants. I only took it seriously about two years ago. Unfortunately, experience doesn't necessarily equals success. Actually, in my experience experience equals failure. I have been very successful about a year and a half ago and then I started reading more and since then it's all gone down hill and the lowest point of my planted tank experience was about two weeks ago when I decided to give up and also went on holidays for 12 days. When I came back my tank was the best it has been for a while and i decided to take it slowly again. In other words, the more you know, the more you can mess up. At the moment my tank is recovering very nicely albeit slowly and I'm very optimistic.

As for pictures of my set up, my grandmother always told me that you don't show a half baked work and my new tank has never even been quarter baked! That's why you have never seen any pictures of it and never would until I thought it was 6/9 baked. But then you've asked specifically and I will oblige, but only later today as the last picture on my log (which is supposed to be for personal use only -- for me to be able to follow my "prgoress" ) was taken about three weeks ago, just before the "big flop" and I want to take another one today before I present it for the world.

I also would like to find a picture of my other tank when it was at its best and as it is now (which is not bad, in my opinion) to ease my embarrasment.

I also promise not to hijack Little Fish's thread and start my own, and with the time zone difference you should have something to read at just about those dead hours at work.

To be continued...
Post InfoPosted 16-May-2006 09:20Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Untitled No. 4,

See, that is where we are different. I have no shame () showing my tank at any stage. I may bug my fellow planters too much when I go on and on about algae issues and what not, but on the other hand I also believe that I show "the world" that not all tanks look like Amanos.

We all know that even the grand masters of Planted Tanks had loads of failures before the mastered the art. And yes, somehow they don't present these failures in a visual form. But why not? What is the worst case? Others see/hear you ranting about your miserable tank and this makes them feel better about themselves as they a) know they are not alone or b) their tanks actually look better (but are not master pieces either).

In my opinion, I am not in a competition with my fellow planters. Sure do I envy tetratech and bensaf for their very nice looking tanks, but in a positive way. And I strongly believe that my tank would look worse now if I hadn't shown all the issues I had so far and these visual clues allowed others to advise better on what to do.

I don't mean this entry to state that all people should open up their "ugly tank vault" if they feel uncomfortable with it, but think about it. It is just a hobby

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 16-May-2006 10:52Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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See, that is where we are different. I have no shame

Of course you have no shame, your from Jersey

Untitled,

I could certainly appreciate those comments, everyone has had issues at one point or another. It's the only way to learn. You were there when I first started my log and whoever goes thru it will see some of them. In fact I created a "Horrific Tank Thread" for people to show some of their problems and as LF has pointed out even Amano had problems.

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Post InfoPosted 16-May-2006 12:30Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Of course you have no shame, your from Jersey


Well, albeit I am a resident of New Jersey, I am actually from Germany (and we got no shame either ).

Another topic: The rams don't seem to do too well, when I came home last night they were simply hanging out in different, more or less hidden, parts of the tank. Their breathing was rather heavy. I made a 50% water change right away, but even an hour later it was the same. The 24 hours following the purchase they were swimming through the tank and picked out some goodies from the moss. Now they don't even eat when I feed anymore. Doesn't look good

And another topic: Last night I measure the big tank ph as I had not done so after adding the power head and having the CO2 on for the full day. It seems like I have a ph of around 6.4 , which - combined with a KH of around 5 - should give me 60ppm of CO2, and that 2 hours before lights out. Am I pushing it?

Ingo


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Rams,
What tank are these in and with what?

Big tank,
I think if your fish look fine leave it.



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Post InfoPosted 16-May-2006 13:29Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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tetratech,

The Rams are in the 20G Long QT, with 3 platies and 3 Dwarf Neon Rainbows that I aquired a week earlier. All other fish are as spunky as ever.

Fish in the big tank look and behave normally, thanks for the advice on leaving the current CO2 flow.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 16-May-2006 15:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Hi LF,
Yes, I think that with those readings you are "pushing it."
I'd back off on the CO2 by a bubble or so and let the pH
climb a bit more and get the CO2 down to around 30.

Frank


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Post InfoPosted 16-May-2006 15:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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LF,

What's the no3 level about in the 20g. Unfortunately when you buy these rams from stores they aren't used to any planted tank conditions and I know they need to adjust to no3 levels. I personally would check that and keep doing water changes to keep the water pristine.

Back to the PH, Frank taking the cautious road (fish frist) so I understand where he's going. Truth be told we really don't know your exact co2 range. If your PH is really 6.6 and not 6.4 and your kh is really 4 and not 5, than your co2 is really 30ppm that's why you have to see the reaction of the fish. I constantly have a ph of like 6.0 with a kh of 2/3 and I have absolutely no problem with any fish, only when I acclimate new fish to quickly.

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Post InfoPosted 16-May-2006 15:52Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Untitled No. 4
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Little Fish,

Rams, what you're describing is a typical problem with Rams (and some other cichlids, Discus, for instance) and it's a matter of internal bacterial infections, or hexamita. Being on the sensitive side of things they are e to it and it might result from poor water conditions, continuous bullying, unstable water conditions and so on. In your case I guess it's mostly because of moving to a new home, and perhaps an acclimation period which was too short.

Usually the first sign of the disease is that the fish stop eating, sometimes they try to eat but spit it back (always pay attention to their eating habits!) and becoming shy. Then they usually have white and long excrement and usually they darken (which most people think is a good thing as it looks as if they colour up). Later it might develop into hole in the head disease and so on.

Bottom line: you must act now or they will most likely die.

Treatment: well, I've had good experience with Waterlife's Octozin and JBL's Furanol. I prefer Furanol as you can give the fish a dip for half an hour instead of dosing the whole tank. Anyway, I don't think this information will be of any help as I don't think either products is available in America. You'll have to ask American aquarists for recommended medications available to you. Try asking someone who has Discus fish or looking up Discus information as it's something most Discus keepers keep just in case.

I'll stress again that you have to act as soon as possible as the longer you wait the less chances they have to recover.

Hope this helps.
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Untitled No. 4,

Thank you so much for the advice, you were right on (you sure know your Rams).

When I came home I went straight to the basement (location of soon all my tanks) and it was already too late.



Both are dead, seemed to have died not too long ago or the other fish didn't feel like eating them. I guess the forumla "Ingo + Rams = Happiness" does not apply.

Thanks for all the effort on the gender identification and behavior issues,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 16-May-2006 23:10Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I'm sorry to hear about the rams dying. It happens in the hobby, and it definitely happens with rams, especially shop rams which are bred in on a production line without any thought of their well-being after they're sold.

I wouldn't give up just yet if I were you. When you decided to buy another couple just make sure the salesperson get you the fish you want. If he does that trick on you again, tell them to go away and call them again when you're ready and warn them you know what fish you want and that you will get them sacked (and not to mention castrated) if they don't get you those two fish.

Then when you come back home take your time acclimating them. About an hour. There are two methods to do that: The first one is the dripping method: you put the fish in a container and with an air tube with a flow restrictor (can be a tie in the tube) you drip water from the tank to the container, about a drop every couple of seconds. When the container is full, empty some water and continue. Remove from the stove after an hour and place in the tank.

The method I'm using is to float the fish in the bag in the tank and add about 20ml of tank water every five or so minutes. When the temperature in the bag and the TDS are the same as in the tank, I set it free. Mind you, I know my rams breeder and I know his fish are healthy and strong and that he picks his best fish for me, so I'm not too bothered.

Finally, remember: rams are not only stunning fish, they are entertaining two and no two fish have the same personality, so it's really worth trying to keep them again.

Again, sorry.
Post InfoPosted 16-May-2006 23:24Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks again Untitled No. 4,

Yeah, I acclimated them for 2 hours, beginning with about 30ml every 10min and after 1 hour shifted gradually to 50ml every 10min.

I guess the mistake was that it was a purchase in the spur of the moment. Not to mention the fact that I neglected the reason why I usually don't buy fish in a chain store. And I should have prepared the QT more to make the transition easier (if I had known that I was buying them). Lesson learned, yet again.

At least I don't have to worry about who is male and who is not.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 16-May-2006 23:41Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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LF,
I don't think your ready my threads.

I had a whole thread here on German Rams and there propensity for getting internal infections. Mine usually got them between 2 and 6 months. I didn't thing they would succumb as fast as yours did.

In addition to acclimating slowly (which I'm sure you did) they need very pristine water with no perceived threats to their well being.

Did they show any syptoms of an infection? Perhaps a UV would help to rid the tank of any pathegons before attempting to add more.

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Post InfoPosted 16-May-2006 23:46Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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No tetratech,

Neither when alive nor dead did I see any damage by looking at them. And yes, I read your threads , it probably is more that I get a little too confident after being successful pretty often (recently).

BTW, did you see Untitled No. 4's Thread already?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 16-May-2006 23:57Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Untitled No. 4
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No disrespect for UV, but I think it's a bit unnecessary. I for one have had rams for ages without any problems and without UV. The internal infections that they have is something that they come with and will alway have and live with, but it will only become a problem in poor conditions but in my unprofessional opinion in most cases it is a problem of fish that are poorly bred, then poorly housed at shop and the shock of moving to new premises (regardless of how good they are) just finishes them.

For instance, I get my rams in the post after they've spent a night on the infamous routes of the Royal Mail and have never had the slightest problem with them. They come out of the box and start looking for food immediately. Usually, if it's a couple, they will start breeding within a week. Is it anything special that I'm doing? No, it's what the breeder is doing. So if you do want to give them another chance and you can be bothered, start researching now. I had to wait 3 months before I got my first fish from the breeder (although since then I'm always the first in queue. There's nothing you can't achieve in the fish world without a bribe of some nicely chosen plants...)
Post InfoPosted 17-May-2006 00:07Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Ingo, so sorry about the german rams. That's so sad. I've never had the german ones, but have some bolivians instead. They aren't quite as pretty, but I've read they're easier to keep (more forgiving of conditions) & that the german rams are very sensitive to water conditions. I've been nervous to try them at this early stage in my career, but I'd like to give them a try one day. You should try again though, as they are really pretty looking fish.

Cheers
TW
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Thanks,

Yes, I believe I will try again sometime, but not now. As I said, I wasn't planning on getting Rams at this point anyway and I will now hold off until I am ready (whenever that is) and a tank is ready.

Ingo


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OK, new topic:

Nothing spectacular, but tetratech - you use Greg Watson's KNO3 as well, right? We once compared the time between our tanks that it took 5l of CO2 to run out and I learned from this that I used less CO2 then you (not good). Well, last night I finished the 2nd pound of KNO3, where are you in that department?

And - man, this Blyxa is for sure a floater. Yesterday was the first day in about 10 days where I did not have to re-root at least one Blyxa stem.

Ingo


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- man, this Blyxa is for sure a floater. Yesterday was the first day in about 10 days where I did not have to re-root at least one Blyxa stem.



You've really gotta shove it down there good. The good thing about it is, it has a nice firm stem part so getting it in the gravel is pretty easy. Once it roots you should be fine, but I know what you mean about the floating


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EditedEdited by tetratech
Nothing spectacular, but tetratech - you use Greg Watson's KNO3 as well, right

Actually for KNO3 I use Greenlight Stump Remover which is pure potassium nitrate. From my original 16oz container I have aproximately 2 ounces left.

I purchased it at LOWES Home Improvement. The only thing I purchased from Greg Watson was the po4 and the so4. The so4 I never used, so I'm selling it cheap.

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Greenlight Stump Remover which is pure potassium nitrate

Does that mean that it is more N and K per tsp?

Also, help me out - is 16oz = 1 pound? In any case, it seems like you used much less than I do, given that I went already through 2 pounds .

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Does that mean that it is more N and K per tsp

To be honest I'm not sure.

Well your tank is abour 45% bigger than mine and you've used more than double what I've used.

But of course things are never that black & white, Take two 125g one with lower light and not as many plants, I don't think one would dose the same way.

As with my tank I was dosing 1/4, than 1/2 now 5/8 as mass increased.



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Well, this thread hasn't seen any new entries in 3 days, I think it is time to close it.



Just kidding . Instead, I will celebrate my 1 year FP membership with 18 pictures, so get ready for more plants and fish.

Weekly Tank Update - Week 34

This week's focus had been mostly on the delivery of the products for the 40G Breeder and as some of you know - this was/is not going too well. The plan was to set up that tank this weekend and the plants for it should have been coming out of the 125G.

For that reason I let the plants grow rather tall and I may have caused some problems while doing so. Loads of plants cause loads of shading, which in turn may cause loads of die-off on the lower leaves. For some reason or another, the BBA is really taking off. Certain leaves of slow growers, and even some fast growers, really have a beard at the leaf edges by now. As I absolutely cannot wait any longer with the trimming, I cut down the Wisteria, Hygro, and the Ludwigia, whereby the first two have replanted tops and disposed bottoms. The Hygro angustifolia grew so nicely that I had a few stems left for the 29G.

Pictures: Here is a close-up of the Ludwigia before trimming. It's horizontal growth was soo strong that it started to grow over the Star Grass far to its right side

Attached Image:

Ludwigia before Trimming



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Now, going back to week 31, which was only 3 weeks ago. This was the last time the Star Grass group had been trimmed.

You can see the few stems of the Ludwigia on the left, at that time, they pretty much reached their final height and the horizontal growth is just about to start (being pushed to the right by the current from the spray bar). Also, the Hygro on the right is about 2/3rds of the tank height.

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Tank 3 Weeks Ago



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One week later, in week 32, the Hygro has grown just a little taller, not by much. Also, the Star Grass hasn't improved a lot, but the Ludwigia was on its way to the right. I did not realize it at that time, but there seems to have been some growth slowing limitation in the tank. Most likely it was the CO2 which had not been efficiently distributed through the tank and loads of it left the water immediately after rising to the top.

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Tank 2 Weeks Ago



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One week ago, at week 33, the growth was measurable again, but maybe only because the last gap from plant top to tank top had finally closed for some of the Star Grass. Also the Hygro reached the top and had been replanted at that point. It wasn't trimmed though as I planned to do that this weekend to add the cut off stems to the 40G.

That weekend, I added the small Rio pump to diffuse and re-direct the CO2 bubbles to the right side of the tank.

Attached Image:

Tank 1 Week Ago



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Which brings us to this weekend. Here is the tank before trimming. Growth had been tremendous during that week. The Star Grass and the Hygro really took off. I assume this validates the assumption that my CO2 was not working too well in the weeks before. On the other hand, BBA also took off, which I find strange as it is supposed to do better in less CO2.

Check out the Ludwigia. The few stems had many branches on them that started to form a dense carpet over the Anubias group and into the Star Grass group, which in turn became so full that it even shaded parts of the front section of the tank. Not to mention the jungle the Hygro created.

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Tank This Weekend - Before Trimming



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Well, as mentioned earlier, it was time for a major trim of all fast growers. The Ludwigia had been cut back to start the horizontal growth anew. All the Star Grass had been removed, botttoms trimmed away, and replanted. The Hygro angustifolia also had been removed, this were actually only 2 stems (a third one, created from a trimming about 4 weeks back, had been left in place and is now the tallest of that group). Out of these 2 original stems I created maybe 8 new ones, 4 smaller ones of them ended up in the 29G.

Here is the tank now:

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Tank This Weekend - After Trimming



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Having a hard time getting the camera focus on the BBA, here are 2 shots to show you some exampled. First off, this is a section in the tank that is formed by Crypt Retrospirals and Narrow Leaf Sags. One can clearly see how nicely lined up the BBA is along the edges of the individual leaves. I believe to have observed that most leaves affected are a) slow growers and b) shaded. Any ideas about that?

Attached Image:

Sag and Crypt with BBA



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Here is another example, a close-up of my beloved Isoetes Lacustris. Off topic, this plant is very interesting. If you have some time then peruse the web and learn more about it. For one thing, it is a "very old" plant that does not have the structure of most things that we call plants now. Having seen how badly affected this plant is, and knowing that I rarely can get my hands on them, I decided to do another Excel treatment. I added about 60ml after the water change and will add for the rest of the week daiyly 30ml. Let's see if this will have any effect. So far, the Excel treatment had worked once very well and the second time around just a little.

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Isoetes Lacustris with BBA



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Please make sure to check the loads of pictures (and a question or two) on the previous page

Ok, here is a fish picture now, in an attempt to distract myself from any algae related issue. My Neon Dwarf Rainbows are doing very well in the tank, actually - it seems like all fish do well .

Here is a male showing off his beautiful red finnage in comparison to his blue body (actually, blue reflection, but you knew that anyway). It is hard to get a shot of them showing color as they hang out mostly in the top left corner of the tank when I come closer, thinking it may be food time. In that section, the light is not shining on their sides and they are mostly shaded.

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Male Neon Dwarf Rainbow



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For the same reason, and the fact that he is a rather shy fellow, here is a rare shot of the male Pearl Gourami. Besides him fleeing the tank if I approach it without food, and hanging in the top left corner during feeding, he spends a lot of time on the surface. This is a bad angle for me to take a picture of him as my tank is usually filled very high and the black top rim gets in the way. BTW, this weekend I was a little slow removing the hose from the tank and I actually filled the tank to the bottom of the top rim, about 1/2 inch below the glass . Should I lower the water level?

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Male Pearl Gourami



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The "out-of-focus" streaks that you can see behind the Gourami in the last picture are not bubbles that have been created by the water change, they are the output of the Rio pump that pushes CO2 from left to right throughout the tank. Here is another shot of it. You can also see the trimmed group of Ludwigia and a lonely stem of my Alternanthera. This is one of quite a few stems that are distributed through the tank, all trimmings of one tiny stem I added to the tank when I started 34 weeks ago. And that stem lived for quite a long time in a shaded spot and didn't grow at all.

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CO2 Distribution Contraption



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The major trimming performed this weekend also gave me the chance to account for all of my 6 Otos. I am glad to see that none of them had died as the jungle that is provided by my tank usually allows me to see maybe 3 at most. Here is a shot of 3 of them. To me, it always looks like they are singing a song when they attach themselves to the glass. Very graceful

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3 Of My Otos



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Good Morning. We're up early for a Sunday.

One can clearly see how nicely lined up the BBA is along the edges of the individual leaves. I believe to have observed that most leaves affected are a) slow growers and b) shaded. Any ideas about that?


Same thing was happening in my tank. BBA on mostly hardscape and slow growing plants. It got worse on my Blyxa when it was more shaded, maybe because it was a bigger target because it was growing even slower. On the otherhand BBA was growing on the inside of the diffusor right where the co2 comes outs. Maybe it's opening is inconsistency. I mean it could be inconsistent light/co2/growth. This seems to open the door.


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I also had a chance to make this shot of 5 of the Otos, but not all are in focus, sorry about that. These guys became extremely active after the water change, zooming through the tank from left to right and back, regrouping on the glass, then swimming around each other, and occasionally even chasing a little Espei once in a while . Maybe this weeks changed got them in the mood, although the chance for Oto fry is slim to nothing.

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How About 5 Otos?



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And, while showing off the fishies in the tank, one cannot forget the Apistos that I added 2 weeks ago. These fish are the most trusting of all, followed by the Rainbows. When I approach the tank glass and tip with my finger at the glass right in front of them they don't even blink (well, they can't blink as they don't have eye lids, but you know what I mean). The Rainbows take flight first, but then return to my finger.

Here is a shot of the male Apisto.

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Male Apisto



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I don't know if it is noticable, but I played with the camera settings for some of the shots. One particular element was switching from "flourescent" to "Tungsten" which seems to make the pictures more green.

Anyway, here is the female Apisto. I like her very much and during feeding she occasionally lets me pet her side. I really have to make sure that she gets her share as the hyper-active Rainbows tend to snatch any food away. The stalking behavior of Apistos is sure a dis-advantage when it comes to competing with Rainbows and Pearls.

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Female Apisto



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The last section of pictures is plant related (bare with me - only 3 more shots). Here is a close-up of the Wisteria I planted in the front left of the tank. It was once a small clipping from my 20G tank but has developed into a beautiful little bush. If I could manage to keep it that size then it would make an excellent foreground plant. But on the other hand, that would make my tank look too much like tetratechs

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Wisteria



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Here is a shot of the Anubias that I purchased 2 weeks ago at the fish auction. To my surprise, it hasn't developed any algae yet. That Anubias was labeled as "hastifolia" but I have serious doubt (actually I am pretty sure) that this is not what it is. Anyone wanna tell me what you think?

When looking at this picture I also remember that I trimmed about 6 to 8 leaves of the Anubias Nana and Barteri group on the left. These had dark brown alage coverage over almost the entire surface, at least the parts of it that were exposed to light. They had a hard time as I once had them out of the water for way too long.

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Anubias ? in front of Star Grass



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On to the last photo for now, the area formerly know as Prince - eh, Rock Valley.

It probably now could be called "the beauty and the beast." While some of the plants in that section look very nice and are doing rather well, other spots are just ugly, like the thread algae covered small piece of drifwood, the substrate which begins to have a carpet of algae (probably food and gunk related), and some Anubias leaves growing a beard of BBA.

That's it for now, hope you liked the pictures,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Tank Section to be Named



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LF,
I don't know if you saw my post in the middle of your pic upload about BBA.

Pics are great, my favorite the femail apisto (don't know who's nice looking the male or the female) and of course the Wisteria.

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Great Pictures Ingo.

And Congratulations on one year! /:'

Rick
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
I don't know if you saw my post in the middle of your pic upload about BBA.
No, I actually did not see that entry. I was in a frency when writing this weeks update. Can you believe it, it took me 1 hour and 20 minutes just for the update, not to mention the time to select, trim, and resize all the photos.

Interestingly I do not have any BBA on anything else but plants and wood. Nothing on the heaters, glass, and filter parts. Inconsistency, that would for sure be true, in particular with the increased shading of the last week.

Thanks for the info, glad that I am not alone with this issue,

Ingo

EDIT: Rick - didn't see your entry until now. Thanks for the congrats and comment on the pictures. Yeah, 1 year at FP, somehow I did manage to add quite a few posts in that time. I wonder how much time I spent on FP during that year


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Just a quick update:

As of today, I reduced the light period to 10 hours, one hour less than before. This means the new cycle is from 11AM to 9PM. Darn, I forgot to change the high light period to be later, this is still 1PM to 4PM. I will have to set it more to the middle of the overall cycle.

This rule will have to be broken though on Saturdays as I will have to start earlier with the tank maintenance to keep my afternoon as free as possible (hard thing to do with the 40G coming soon).

I would assume there should not be a problem with turning on the lights earlier one day a week, right?

Ingo


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I would assume there should not be a problem with turning on the lights earlier one day a week, right?


I work right through the light cycle on my tank. Which means that plants don't really get any light during that time. I'd turn the lights on earlywhile you work, but leave them on until they would go off at 9pm. It wouldn't be a problem.



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Thanks Matty

That is what I assumed as well. The water change days are messed up tank days anyway. You shut down the CO2 for a while in the middle of the day (in my case for about 1.5 hours until 60G of water are drained and refilled), your ph changes because of the new water, so does the KH and GH, lights are different because you may chose to have only half of them on while trimming takes place, gunk is stirred up from the trimming, and what not.

Update on the Excel treatment:

I have added 60ml on Saturday, and over 30ml on the following two days, so far there is no difference in the BBA, not even a color change

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I would forget the excel treatment. It's only preventing your plants from pearling at this point.

Keep moving toward the direction of a little more co2 and keep it stable. Keep reducing feeding, fishload and if possible the surface area of your biofilter and your tank will be more centered and your algae problems will be
history.

I could honestly say even the BBA is gone in my tank. It was getting on the Blyxa but has stopped since the shading issue has been improved.



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It's only preventing your plants from pearling at this point
Well, I actually opened my log today to report the first stage of success on the Excel treatment, some of the BBA is starting to turn red and a few spots are already bright red. So I will keep on doing it for at least this week.

Nevertheless: tetratech - what do you mean by "if possible the surface area of your biofilter and your tank will be more centered" ? Like I should add more bio filter? Centered? Please explain.

My CO2 is for sure high, I have CO2 bubbles all over the tank, tiny ones. But you know what, except for water change day, and during injuries or on Anubias flowers, I never have pearling. Me wonders if my light is too low.

Ingo


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If the excel is working great, I just meant what's the point if it's not doing anything.

Nevertheless: tetratech - what do you mean by "if possible the surface area of your biofilter and your tank will be more centered" ? Like I should add more bio filter? Centered?
If your still getting algae, than something is too far off center for the plants to make up the difference. Forget that your lights are too small, don't even thing that. I would probably have to run 4.5 wpg on my tank to equal your intensity.

I think we pretty much eliminated that it's the EI program causing algae. As discussed before your doing the same thing many others are doing without algae problems. And the "center" with EI can be as much as 3 times off it's target.

I feel very stongly as you know it's in your waste/light combination. There's simply too much light and too much available waste for the algae spores to stay dormant. Yes a large filter (more biofilter) would help. If the plants aren't growing well than more co2 as well.

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May I rock the CO2 boat a bit? Now I'm no expert on plants or chemistry but I have some experience with planted tanks and this is where this is coming from.

Until a few weeks ago my 200L tank (not the one I posted pictures of) was miserable. Growth of some plants wasn't so great and I was getting some algae. I was more worried about the growth than the algae, to be honest. I was also reading everywhere that pushing the CO2 up would help so I passed the 30ppm mark and went higher, much higher, "it's okay until the fish show signs of stress" higher. Then I went away for 12 days and so shut off the CO2 and left only some of the lights on for 5 - 6 hours a day so the plants don't die, but not expecting any growth.

When I came back I had a pleasant surprise. The plants that I had problem with have recovered -- they didn't grow much due to the lack of CO2 and no light but the growth that they did have was healthy. On top of that, 95% of my algae has gone. I decided to take it slowly from there regarding the CO2 and have only started with 15 - 20ppm (<1 bubble per minute compared to about 4 - 5 bubbles per minute before). I thought that later I could bring it up a bit more if I feel the plants need it. The light intensity has gone up again to what it was before and then a bit higher.

It's been over two weeks now since and I haven't touched the CO2. Results? Plant growth is better and faster. Plants that were struggling are now flourishing. The algae I still have is less than the 5% that I had after coming back and it's only on wood, not on plants. Although I put less CO2 than before I have much more pearling (if that's an indication). And the best thing is that I'm happier with the tank than I have been for months. By the way, my fish seem happier too. Although they have never shown signs of stress like fast breathing or gasping at the surface, they have become more active and all the shrimps that I have are now all over the tank while they used to be very shy before.

I don't want to sound like an evangelist preaching for a new belief and I don't think I'm in a position to start theorising and analysing. All I'm saying is that this experience has made me think a lot about what has just happened to my tank.

By the way, the last time my plant growth was as good was several months ago before I bought the current diffuser I'm using. I bought it because I felt that the one I had added insufficient CO2 levels to the tank and wanted to push it a bit higher.

Again, just my humble experience.
Post InfoPosted 26-May-2006 08:08Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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May I rock the CO2 boat a bit?

I don't know about rocking it, but you would be alone in it.

You tell an interesting tale, but I think more details are needed. You don't really say how heavily planted you were or what kind of plants, etc you had in the tank. If you were achieving 30ppm in a 100L tank with 4 or 5 bubbles per minute you couldn't have had much in there.

It's not really debatable the benefit co2 has on plants given sufficient light and nutrients. I can't even count the bubble rate I'm running, but it's at least 4 or 5 per SECOND. My plants pearl everynite. My water literally looks like carbonated soda and the fish are as healthly as can be.

As I mentioned earlier, IMHO it's all about balance and haven't the tank centered (within a range.)

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Wow,

Now here are two people on opposite ends of the opinion meter

First of all, thanks to both of you for sharing your experience. I am sure that Untitled No.4 meant seconds, BTW. Also, I don't think he would be the only one who has the opinion that higher levels of CO2 are not necessairy. We actually don't know (or at least I have not read about a pin-pointed analysis yet) why we achieve better results on such high levels. Maybe these levels have some secondary impact on things (just thinking out loud) that help in most situations but not in all. I can for sure say that CO2 in itself is not a guarantee for success. My levels are high, no doubt, but I have no pearling of the plants, ever .

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-May-2006 14:50Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
Now here are two people on opposite ends of the opinion meter

I don't know if it's really two opposite opinions, because in Untitled's case it wasn't a permanent solution.

Untitled himself said that he turned off some lights and ran the others for 5 to 6 hrs. He saw none or little growth in his plants. That really doesn't sound like a permanent solution to what appears were algae problems prior to his "soft blackout".

If his plants were getting algae and the fish weren't happy then something was out of whack. I'm constantly pushing 6.0 ph and kh of 2 or 3 and my fish are all fine.

If untitled wants to report back to me that he ran a highlight tank with no co2 and his plants grew great and it was free of algae for a long-time than I'll eat my words

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Post InfoPosted 26-May-2006 18:31Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I know I'm late but yes, that soft black-out has a lot to do with the disappearance of algae. And I can trace my algae PROBLEMS back to when my CO2 cannister ran out and I had to go a few days without. The point is, there's so much at play here that we can't just pin it on one thing or another and generalize about eachothers' tanks.

It appears that Untitled switch over to a non-CO2 tank, cutting back on lights and nutrients and letting the tank balance itself that way.

Now Untitled and tetra, if you can't resolve this with words, may I suggest Irish bare-knuckles fisticuffs out back?


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Post InfoPosted 26-May-2006 18:37Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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It appears that Untitled switch over to a non-CO2 tank, cutting back on lights and nutrients and letting the tank balance itself that way.


Very nicely said. See that wasn't hard. Want to hear something really weird, I just looked at my regulator and it appears I'm out of co2. I don't remember when I got my refill, but it definitely went much faster the second time which makes sense.

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Post InfoPosted 26-May-2006 19:00Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Untitled No. 4
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No, no, I'm afraid there has been some misunderstanding.

The "soft blackout" as you call it was due to me being away and having no way/no one to dose my tank while I was away. When I came back I switched the CO2 back on and returned the lights to normal. This is really when the tank took off.

Some more details:
The tank volume is 200L (50G). It's medium planted, about the same plant mass as yours, Tetra. Plants are a combination of fast to medium growing plants. Lights have are the same as before. Fertilising is the same as before (a little bit of macros and micros every day). All other parameters (KH=2, GH = 3) are as before. Can't say I test too often but NO3 is around 10ppm, PO4 is 0.5 - 1ppm. And I did mean 4 - 5 bubles per second (again, something which is hard to really count).

The tank has been running with the high CO2 for about 4 months and was rubbish. It has been with low CO2 for the past 2 weeks. I know 2 weeks is not a very long time but I think that when adding CO2 2 weeks are enough to get a feeling of whether things are okay or not.

The reason I shared this with you is not because I belive that non-CO2 or low-CO2 tanks are better. I don't believe anything, I'm not into theorising anything and I'm definitely not trying to preach anything.

I did share this because I thought it would give you something to think and discuss about which I think has some relation to what you're already discussing (CO2 levels, that is). That's all.

I come in peace!
Post InfoPosted 26-May-2006 21:47Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I did share this because I thought it would give you something to think and discuss about
And it sure did

I for one would like to hear about different approaches and success stories while doing so. The more options are given that lead to equal results the better it is, IMHO.

As tetratech said, there are loads of parameters that determine the outcome of a successfully planted tank, and with Untitled's medium planted tank, water conditions, ferts, and what not, he may have found the settings that suit him well.

I, on the other hand, am still searching for the right conditions. I can report that more and more of the BBA is turning reddish, but I also have to say that my thread algae is advancing again (slowly increasing since about 2 weeks now, becoming noticably more recently).

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-May-2006 23:34Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Why ?

Run with high light Co2 = things go bad, cut back light, stop Co2 return but back on Co2 and lights = things go well.

What does that tell you ?

Running with good light and Co2 the nutrients have to be there, constantly, even a temporary shortage will cause issues or stunting. Seems like something was missing or too low. Switch off for a while and everything slows down, less nutrients are required and waste builds up naturally. So when you come back and switch everything back on you are a little better off nutrient wise and everything goes better.

The sudden lack of light and Co2 tells the algae to stop reproducing. Adult algae has a very very limited life span compared to plants. A life span of a few weeks compared to a life span of many many years for plants.

That would be my take on it.

Nothing wrong with going against the Co2 grain, we've become a bit obsessed with it. A lot of people see it has a cure all when in fact it can cause a lot more issues then it solves if the nutrients aren't right.

The interactions between the nutrients are often forgotten. Nothing wrong with , say high P or K but these will both drive up N consumption. If the extra N is not supplied there will be more then likely issues, especially in tanks where there's a lot of fast growing stems. These will always be the first to be hit. There's a reason why Anubias/Ferns/Mosses are so easy to grow.

It's a lifestyle choice

Fast growth lots of work against the steady patient waiting game.

There's a lot of pondering about Amano's Co2 habits. Some say he runs a bit lower and only has the co2 on during his mid day burst of MH lighting. I guess nobody knows for sure. But his stem plants are never the fullest looking so maybe he does run low, but steady. His choice of stem plants are usually fairly simple.

I do believe the stability is just as important as the level.

Certainly my own experience is that the high level 20-30ppm does work better but it has to be stable and the nutrients absolutely must be right.

Having said that, I've said before that lower light and NO Co2 is the best bang for your buck in the long term. Yes the plant choice is limited and it's painfully slow but there are very rarely issues and it's a lot less work.

I had a low light no co2 set up for quite a while. Never had to dose ferts and I was very very happy with it. Looked good too, won the aquascaping contest here. When I changed to more light and co2, yes I could grow more plants, they were fuller and lusher but I also had a lot more headaches.

Lower light and lower Co2 seems to be less problematic too.

As I've said before it's the norm here in Asia to run with a lot less light and lower Co2. But the plant choices are different. Not so many stem plants used here, and usually it's fairly simple ones. Lots of Ferns, Mosses and Anubias,Crypts,Swords and Grasses. Hardscape is of equal importance to the plants so high growth rates are not necessarily desirable.The slower plant types put less demand on nutrients.

As I said it's a lifestyle choice.

It's also balance, and as is often forgotten plant choice is part of that balance as well as the nutrients, light and Co2.

As far as Ingo's issues - well I wouldn't worry about the Excel stopping pearling, that's just due to the de-oxygenating properites of the chems , doesn't mean the plants are doing less better.

If the plants aren't pearling now it's not a light issue. You had heavy pearling before with the same lights, so that can be ruled out.

It may be low Co2 or nutrients.

It may simply be you now have more fish consuming more oxygen therfore saturation of the water which will lead to pearling is more difficult.

If the gas and nutrients are good I wouldn't worry about the lack of pearling at all.



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Post InfoPosted 27-May-2006 04:25Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Yeah

Bensaf - nice balanced entry stating the advantages of low and high tech approaches, and even offering a middle path (which I believe is what Untitled has found)

I never had strong pearling, ever . I have no idea why that was the case, I guess some parameter is always off, no matter what I do. Or, pearling depends on other factors as well, like fish load, but I didn't even have it when there were only 15 fish in the tank (but then maybe other things were wrong).

What can I say - I am just not a pearler

Tankwise, the whole thing is starting to become upsetting. I don't even have a chance to truely scape this sucker, I am afraid that any removal of plants (fast growers) would instantly cause another algae bloom and as such I leave things mostly as is, besides the trimmings. This is for sure not how I would like the tank to look like in the end. Yeah - it may not be ugly, and yeah - algae may be limited, but just not what I want.

Soooo much to learn,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 27-May-2006 12:20Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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What can I say - I am just not a pearler

LF, I'm pretty sure I remember some of your beautiful pics that showed pearling. By the way before I got the ceramic diffusor my plants never pearled but their growth was excellent, so as Bensaf pointed out it's really not an indication of plant health.

Bensaf is right when he says it's a "lifestyle choice". I notice the difference between my 12g and 72g. The 12g does o,k, but nothing grows fast not even the wisteria and I'm dosing excel everyday with EI. There isn't alot of algae under the 27 watts of light so there is very little to do maintenance wise, which is a good thing because of the 72g.

Here's a couple of points:

1.
Maybe your lifestyle doesn't blend with a high-tech planted tank. I know you do weekly water changes, but maybe not seeing your tank enough doesn't allow you to "see" certain things before they become a bigger problem. I'm also starting to think constant trimming is a really good thing (if you have time to do it, which you might be, because of algae-infected leaves), because it drives uptake and makes the plants grow fuller creating even more mass.

2.
If you step back from your tank (go ahead do it)and really think about it, why should you have these algae problems. As discussed many times, your doing what the "Master" and I "his humble apprentice" are doing. Light my Dear Jersey Friend, LIGHT. Now I'm not implying that your light is bad, because it's not. But just like in the bigger ecosystem called Earth, light (the sun) is the driver of life and decides what happen in your little ecosystem.

We all know that when you have high light every changes, you need more co2, more ferts. In the same vein you provide more opportunity for life, which of course includes more algae spores joining the fun. Look what happens when a tank is near a window in sunlight. The most intense light of all. Your light even though your only doing a midday burst is very strong. As I said it would be like Bensaf and I running 4 to 5wpg. With that light on my tank I might be posting right now in a thread titled "Chaos Maximus II"

So after all this time, IMHO you need to take a step back and take a larger approach. You must reduce your lighting or do a combination of more water changes, less fish, less food and add more biofilter mass. I would also push the co2 as far as it can go and don't go light on the ferts. Remember it's a &*^% estimative index - Tetratech out.

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Post InfoPosted 27-May-2006 13:46Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Deep thoughts tetratech,

Yes, you did mention all these points before, and I guess a reminder once a week is a good thing

The pearling pictures of my tank were mostly post-water-change shots from a time when I didn't know about the corelation between pearling and new water .

About the light: although I hear you, and although I am close to try not turning my second row of lights on at all (as may be indicated by last weeks change of cutting down on the overall lighting period from 11 to 10 hours), I am not so sure that your evaluation of my light is proper. Remember that I have to light 2 more feet of tank than you do, that's 50%. Albeit the amount of wattage over the tank is larger, it is streched rather thin when looking at inches of lenght (and depth). Your light is focussed on a much smaller area.

I am with you on the fishload, one reason why I can't wait to have the 40G set up and thin out the crowd a little. Food has already been greatly reduced. CO2 is way up. Cleaning my filter more often may also be a good thing, I have cleaned it maybe 3 times in the last 40 weeks (not good I guess).

Ingo out


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Post InfoPosted 27-May-2006 14:25Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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I have cleaned it maybe 3 times in the last 40 weeks (not good I guess).


In some tanks that might be fine, but not in yours.

I am not so sure that your evaluation of my light is proper


I certainly respect your opinion about the light, but please remember your light is twice as strong as mine and your tank is the same depth. I don't want to turn this into a technical breakdown of lighting, but that's a lot of light. Again the light isn't a problem in itself, but it needs a lot of support.




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Post InfoPosted 27-May-2006 15:05Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Yeah, maybe the problems are filter cleaning related as well, I will have to work on that

About the light, after re-evaluating your light (1/2 of mine) compared to tank size, I guess you are right, I have more than you do. What is your current light schedule?

Another option would also be that I still have some shortage on something, most likely Iron. I only use TMG for micros and never add a product like Flourish Iron on top of it. Do you guys think that would be a god idea? I have an Iron measuring kit, but identifying such small quantities by means of a sliding colored comparison chart is anything but accurate.

Thanks tetratech ,

Ingo (PS: my 4000'th post)


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Post InfoPosted 27-May-2006 15:22Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I wouldn't worry about FE. The only reason I'm using Flourish Iron was to bring out some more red, but I never used a dedicated FE fert prior to that, only what little I got from dosing regular Flourish.

You do know when I started my tank I purposely bought a 36" light even though my tank is 48" because I didn't want 3.6wpg. My current lighting is 96 watts from 9:30 to 12:30, 192 watts from 12:30 to 6:30 and 96 watts from 6:30 to 8:30. So I only have 1.3 wpg for 5 hrs a day and 2.7 wpg for 6 hrs.

I really thing you should stop worrying about all the micro and macro levels. Just make sure they are in there your dumping them out once a week anyway. That's fine-tuning maybe you'll see slightly fuller grow or reddier plants, but I don't think they are the cause of your algae. Reduce light a little more, less food and try to maybe do 2 water changes a week for a while and see if there's any improvement. I bet there will be.

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Post InfoPosted 27-May-2006 18:22Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks tetratech for all the tips

Well, just to finish that light chapter, your light is on at 2.7wpg for 6 hours, mine is at high gear for only 3, or I better say it was as I changed it (more later).

I doubt that I will find the time to throw in another water change during mid-week, at least not in the next two months as work is a little crazy.

Anyway,

Weekly Tank Update - Week 35

Most of this week was back to my favrite (or most hated) topic, algae and its roots and control . The Excel treatment that I started last week began to show effects after a few days, but progress of these effects is sloooow. During this water change I trimmed quite a bit on the left side, the Pearl Grass reached a height that made it not so pretty anymore. Also, I shortened the left side stem plants as they were starting to redirect the flow of the CO2 bubbles.

All this talk (or writing) here finally got to me , and I am willing to try things:

- Filter cleaning will be on a 3 week schedule. I cleaned it this weekend and boy, it was dirty. May explain where all my N and P come from.
- I shortened the bright light period to 1 hour, with 10 hours lights-on overall.

Let's see what that does to the algae and to the light hungry plants

As I don't have too many pictures of the tank from this week, let's start with a short review of the tank ever since the driftwood was added, in week 19. Here is the tank at that stage, a rather small plant load has survived the major overhaul at that time.

Attached Image:

Tank in Week 19



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Post InfoPosted 28-May-2006 11:47Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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By week 24, things showed signs that this was all not working too well. The one plant that did really great was the Pearl Grass, I guess I could have planted the whole tank with it.

The other plants started to have major thread algae attachments, and all my tall "grassy" plants (helferi, sags, and retrospiralis) had a hard time to re-settle after being moved.

Attached Image:

Tank in Week 24



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Post InfoPosted 28-May-2006 11:51Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Week 29 was pretty much the beginning of going back to square one and stuffing the tank with fast growers, or at least the back of the tank.

Nevertheless, algae still made its mark and could not be eliminated. The reasons for this are probably a combination of all the things tetratech ever mentioned to me .

Attached Image:

Tank in Week 29



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Post InfoPosted 28-May-2006 11:54Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Here is the tank now from last week, as a comparison to the next shot. Many areas in the tank became fuller (compared to the previous shot from week 29), in particular the foreground needed more plant because the bare gravel was/is an algae magnet, mostly for threads.

That week (34) the tank had just received a major trimming.

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Tank in Week 34



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Post InfoPosted 28-May-2006 11:57Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Here is the tank now this weekend. I think one can clearly see that growth in the tank is at least great, if not exceptional . Star Grass and Hygro have gained quite a few inches and probably will need some trimming next week again if this continues at that pace (or two the longest).

You can also see the trimmed left side with the little mound of green plants in the foreground:

Attached Image:

Tank This Week - Week 35



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Post InfoPosted 28-May-2006 12:00Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Now some shots that mostly focus on the fishies, all tanken at low tide during the water change. This are the times when the best schooling in the Espei group happens.

Here are "some" of them in the middle section of the tank. Also, I trimmed the Pearl Grass in that area and cut off some algae infested leaves of the Wendtii behind it.

Attached Image:

Espei in the Middle



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Post InfoPosted 28-May-2006 12:03Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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May I say "Paludarium"

Sometimes I think I should convert the tank into a half-filled paludarium as emersed branches are always appealing to me. On the other hand, I guess I need a little more water for the 100 fishies

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Paludarium



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Post InfoPosted 28-May-2006 12:05Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Here is a (nice) shot of the tank Autobahn during water change. I don't know why, after so many weeks of doing this water change, the Espei always seem to worry that all the water will be gone. As such, they peruse the tank from left to right and back again, over and over.

This picture also shows you an overexposed look at the Wisteria foreground mound on the left of the tank with the trimmed Pearl Grass to its left. The Wendtii begind it also had its leaves trimmed (algae).

Attached Image:

Autobahn



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Post InfoPosted 28-May-2006 12:09Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Here is a close look at the Espei group, hovering around the Wisteria mound.

Never ever did I see a situation in which all Espei swim into the same direction, at least one of the gang always appears to have a different opinion on where to go and what to do next. Wait a minute, isn't that how we work here as well ?

Attached Image:

Espei Closer



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Post InfoPosted 28-May-2006 12:12Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Here are now a few pictures of some fishies other than Espei. Here is the male Apisto viejita II telling the surrounding fish to stay away from him. The rainbow looks like he is wondering why the Apisto doesn't want to play with him.

Oh, rainbows - I think I will add the 3 that are in the QT since 3 weeks a little later today. I hope the existing 5 (3m and 2f) will welcome them into their school, but new hierarchy "games" can be expected.

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Apisto



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Post InfoPosted 28-May-2006 12:15Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Here are two of the 5 Rainbows in the tank, a male and a female. I think it is this female that sometimes worries me a little. She occasionally (so far 2 times within the last 3 weeks) seems to be on the onset of Dropsy, with her scales slightly sticking out.

I don't know if it is something in the water, or maybe she is egg-filled at these times. But the last time it went away within a few days by itself. Any guesses?

Attached Image:

Male and Female Rainbow



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Post InfoPosted 28-May-2006 12:18Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Last shot:

An exceptionally rare good photo of my Pearl Gouramies. Tetratech - aren't they cute? Maybe you should think about getting these as your center fishies.

Oh, and if you wonder about my current Avatar, look at my entries in This Thread

Have fun,

Ingo

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Lady and Sir Pearl



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Post InfoPosted 28-May-2006 12:22Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Well,

With regards to setting up the new tank and the shovelling of fish between tanks, nothing is going to well

I still don't have wood and there is none in sight, but that is not the reason for this entry.

As announced in one of the texts above (I guess the one with the rainbows), I was plannning on adding the 3 from the QT to the main tank. And what do I see when I get ready to fish them out? ICH

All 6 fish in the QT have ich. I immediately did a 60% and then another 60% water change, but I haven't added any med yet. I am not sure what to do, treat and risk plant and fish health or let them try to fight it off? I will think about it until the afternoon.

I assume it came in with either the Rams (from animal super store ) two weeks ago or with the Rainbows (from fish auction) 3 weeks ago, but I did not see it until today.

This messes up the moving plans for at least 4 weeks for this tank as there is no way any fish would go somewhere else before that

Here you can see the tail of the Platy. The white dots are Ich, in case you didn't know.

Grrrrr, Ingo

EDIT: This was entry 2222 in this log, maybe this is a lucky day after all.

Attached Image:

Platy Ich



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Post InfoPosted 28-May-2006 16:40Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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Hi Ingo

Sorry to hear about the ich. What a pain. I'm far from an expert as you know, but I'll share my white spot experience. It always happens with new fish. I brought home a sailfin mollie & a plain white mollie & had them in QT. I noticed the sailfin acting strangely, funny shimmering movements & finally just laying on the bottom. I examined him as best I could and found the white spot. Shops were all shut on this Friday night & my LFS did not reopen until 10.30am next day. When I returned with the meds, the sailfin mollie was already dead, but clearly the remaining mollie was also sick. It was showing the spots & just laying on the bottom. Thought it was dead more than once. I followed advice given to me via this thread http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/threads/27831.1.htm?15#& also advice in a pm Keith sent me. Basically this meant immediate 30% water change & treating with whatever white spot meds were available in LFS. Re dosing every three days, preceded by another 30% water change. The advice was to keep treatment up for minimum of 2 weeks (to make sure the disease was completely eradicated). During this time, the lights were to remain off, only minimal feeding, raise the tank's temperature & increase aeration. The recovery was so great, that this mollie gave birth while in the green murky water & has since gone on to have another lot of fry.

Depending upon what you use, be aware that some of the meds for white spot stain the silicone sealant in the tank, but plants usually cover that & it's in the QT tank anyway.

So that's what worked for me. I've heard others say they use a salt treatment, but I don't know the details. If you're interested, I can dig up Keith's pm & send it to you (it's on my work PC). if Keith reads this, I'm sure he send it to you himself.

Good luck with curing the ich.

Cheers
TW
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Robyn,

Thanks for the input. I do have ich med at home, one of the best from what I heard in the past (I used to have ich twice in my 29G when that was my only tank), called QuickCure from Aquarium Products. This means that I pretty much know how I would have to treat, the question is only "should I treat?" None of the 6 fish (3 platies and 3 rainbows) shows any signs of distress or slowing down. I will think about it over lunch.

I guess to be on the safe side I will add it. My "therapy" is a 1/4 of the dosage, half because of sensitive fish (yeah - they are not tetras, but better save than sorry) and half again for plants, every other day for two weeks. In between 50% water changes. I guess I have my work cut out for me.

Also, I was thinking about redoing the QT this weekend (bored and not much else to do with the 40G just not getting set up). You know, other substrate and what not. But all has to be scratched as I assumed the only fish I had to take care off during the change would have been the 3 healthy platies .

Thanks Robyn ,

Ingo


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EditedEdited by tetratech
I've always used coppersafe at 1/2 dose with great success, but I would use what has been working. Could be another reason why a UV is a good investment.

Nice pic of the pearls. Ya know what, my rainbows have calmed down since putting them in and I'm starting to really enjoy them in the tank. The fence off once in a while, but otherwise swim together nicely. Maybe because there are now females they aren't going crazy.

Like the the Baby Duck. I usually get a couple landing in pool this time of year.

My Scapes
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Thanks tetratech

Yeah, I started treatment after we came back from the pool. This means the QT is off limits for any new fish for about 4 weeks (2 weeks treament plus 2 just to make sure).

Yeah, the pearls are nice, but so are your rainbows. Except - pearls do well as a pair while rainbows need a gang . So - go get more

Have fun,

Ingo


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Hey Ingo, I forgot to say how good the pictures were. Thinking more about your sick fishies, although it seems like you've caught it early if no-one is showing any signs of slowing down or distress, unlike mine who by the time I realised what was happening, it was too late for one of them. I agree with tetratech that you should use what worked before. I dosed at half strength, as there were rasboras in the tank too. Maybe that's why the fry survived the treatment (though I didn't even know they were there until I removed the meds after treatment - couldn't see a thing in there for 2 weeks).

Anyway, as usual the tank looks beautiful - your pics are always great.

Cheers
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Robyn,

Didn't even notice that you didn't say anything about the photos/main tank . I was too busy thinking about the Ich myself.

Yeah, I am glad that I caught it in time, actually I am even more glad that I caught it BEFORE adding the Rainbows to the main tank.

Lesson No.329: when transferring fish from tank to tank at home, first check the fish for an illness.

Yeah, I am confident that the fish in the QT will be fine (keeping fingers crossed though). What bugs me is all the extra work (bi-daily water changes) and the fact that I felt like really changing the tank today .

Ingo


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TW
 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Lesson No.329: when transferring fish from tank to tank at home, first check the fish for an illness.
Yep - for sure. Here's the next lesson:-
Lesson No. 330: when transferring previously sick fish, delay transfer for at least 2 weeks after recovery from treatment, in case of relapse.
As you know, I just learnt that one myself over the weekend. But I know from your earlier post, that you already knew this.

Anyway, good luck.

Cheers
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There has not been much new to report about this tank in the last few days. I seem to identify a slight decrease in thread algae on the upper levels of the branches though. I cannot tell if this would be already the effect of the changes light period, or the cleaned filter, or the Excel that I sprinkled on them

The one thing that worries me a little is the fact that one of the female rainbows shows signs of dropsy. I mentioned this earlier as something that seems to come and go, but the last 2 days have been "blown up". She is still eating well, and also has the power to swim through the current of the spray bar, but she hangs more often by herself in less turbulent waters than she used to.

Otherwise, check my 40G Tank Thread for setup issues.

Ingo


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TW
 
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Ingo, sorry to hear about the rainbow. I think I lost 2 guppies to bloat. I removed them to QT (as I'd heard it is contagious - don't know if that's true though). I lost them both, as I didn't really know how to treat them. Tried a few treatments, but nothing worked.

If yours do end up having bloat, I'd be interested to hear your treatment.

Good luck with them.

Cheers
TW
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The one thing that worries me a little is the fact that one of the female rainbows shows signs of dropsy. I mentioned this earlier as something that seems to come and go,


Could be just constipation. Can look a lot like bloat but will disappear in a couple of days.

Try feeding them a couple of thawed frozen peas, but remove the skin. Rainbows love these and will devour them , they also help keep the fish "regular".


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
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Try feeding them a couple of thawed frozen peas, but remove the skin
I think what I should try is to get the resulting frenzy on camera. No doubt all my fish in the 125G would go crazy over peas and I would probably have to spend 1 hour to remove the skin of enough peas so that the "sick" rainbow for sure would get her share.

I don't really want to separate her (additional stress) but it may be the best option in the long run. In particular because I currently treat the QT for Ich, she should probably better stay where she is.

Thanks,

Ingo


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LF,

Being I have been gone for some time. Whats the word on the Rams? I have kind of looked a few pages back but didn't see anything....

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
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Wings,

- didn't make it, died within 3 days. Probably left me some ich as a reminder, treating the QT right now.

Ingo


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bratyboy2
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just wondering are the apistos showing signs of breeding yet? their such a great looking fish u should get them to breed...
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bratyboy2,

No visual signs of breeding yet. I think I mentioned it on my last weekly update, both male and female are out and about way too often to maintain any potential brood somewhere hidden in the tank. With this many fish (about 100) in the tank there is no way the fry would survive too long while the parents are gone. Maybe a few would, but as much as I know these fish grow very slow and as such would serve as "food" for a long time.

Thank you on the compliment on these fish, I really like them as well. I mentioned way back that the female with her yellow base color and black markings is just a stunningly beautiful fishie

Ingo


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LF,

Sorry about the rams.... We just got a batch of them in yesterday that look really nice. Might have to bring some home and try out my luck with them.

55G Planted tank thread
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[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
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Wings,

Just be careful. I would almost assume that your tanks will have to go through some settleing phase after the big move. Maybe you should wait until all has been identified as stable.

Question regarding my tank to all:

I just came back from the welding supply store and, needing a new CO2 bottle for the other tank anyway, I bought a 10lbs one. It will be hooked to this tank and the previous 5lbs will go on the 40G. The next choice I have to make is regarging the regulator. The new one I bought is supposedly better and more accurate (great needle valve) that the current one. Initially I thought about using this one on this tank, but I believe that a more accurate and stable setting is more important on the 40G, as mistakes would lead quicker to disaster.

Do you guys and gals agree?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 03-Jun-2006 14:47Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Well,

Lucky me. Good that I decided to buy a bottle for the other tank, or this tank, as shortly after lights on in the basement I discovered that the current bottle was going on empty. The main pressure meter was already all the way down, although the bubble rate was still ok. The welding store did not have any 5lbs bottles anyway, so my only choice would have been the 10.

Anyway, here is the bigger bottle in place. Fits nicely. Oh, and btw, the color of the bottle is gray because the welding store distinguishes gases by the color of the bottle - CO2 = gray

Attached Image:

New 10 Pounder



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Another thing that happened even before the water change was an attempt to feed the female rainbows (yes, both of them) some peas. By now both show signs of dropsy, and the one with less severe signs is actually behaving more "sick", being close or at the survace at all times. So - how do I feed 2 rainbows with 100 hungry fish in the tank? I decided to capture them and place them in a plastic container and feed them there. All worked out except they didn't eat. Here they are:

Attached Image:

2 Female Rainbows in Container



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As you can see, in particular the left one has some major pine-coning going on. I thought about what to do and decided to add them to the QT. In the worst case, I would lose 8 fish, these two, 3 males rainbows, and the 3 resident platies. This decision was made even more difficult as the QT is currently undergoing Ich treatment. By evening, they looked and behaved the same, but they were eating flake food just as eagerly as usual.

Could it be that the problem is egg-load related?

Here is a close-up of the worse one:

Attached Image:

Dropsy



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OK, let's move on

Weekly Tank Update - Week 36

Not much has happened during this week, plants have been growing and algae seems to have been stable. This was a full week with the new light schedule, 10h total with 1h high light. I only trimmed one stem of the Hygro angustifolia, all other plants are planned to be pruned next weekend so I can add them to the new tank (keep an eye open for a new log then).

For comparison, here are a series of shots spanning the last 2 weeks since the last major trimming.

Here is the tank in week 34:

Attached Image:

2 Weeks Ago - After Major Trimming



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One week after the previous shot, growth had been good, but nothing special though. I guess during the first week after a major trim the plants need to re-settle first before they can focus on growth.

Here is the tank last weekend:

Attached Image:

Tank One Week Ago



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Now here is the tank as of last evening. As you can see, growth has been strong. The Star Grass reaches the top in quite a few spots, and the Hygro is threatening to shade the whole right area even after I removed a major stem (is for now in the 29G). I also cut off a runner from the Wisteria, it was growing into the Blyxa, and placed it next to the Nana Petite. I might take the Petites out as well and add them to the 40G, will see.

Attached Image:

This Weekend, After Water Change



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Now here are a few closer shots of plants and fish.

To start off, this is the worst spot in the tank, with regards to gravel algae coverage. This happens although I weekly vacuum the front of the tank. I cannot remove the algae threads as they are attached to the gravel and I basically would have to remove the entire top layer in order to make sure that it is gone.

Attached Image:



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Here is a close-up of the Star Grass on, and close to, the surface. This picture was taken a while after the water change, so the bubbles can be attributed to the change and not "natural" pearling in my tank. I hope the plants will be able to grow for one more week without killing each other.

Attached Image:

Star Grass



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Here is a picture of the Narrow Leaf Java Fern. This plant has been doing nicely, maintaining a constant growth rate, albeit rather slow. This weekend, I separated one of the young plants onone of the leaves and planted it to the left of its mother at the spot where the main ranch of driftwood is splitting.

Also, you can see the nice green carpet of threads on the driftwood and the rock behind it. If it would be static only on these entities then I wouldn't mind at all, it would be the shortest foreground plant one could wish for.

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Narrow Leaf Java Fern



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Here is a close-up of the Hygro angustifolia forest on the right side of the tank. These plants are growing very nicely, in just a few weeks I creates enough material for this section and another 4 or 5 stems that are currently in the 29G.

In this picture you can also see a few of my other plants, from anubias over crypts and pearl grass to the Alternantheras.

Attached Image:

Hygro Field



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Make sure to look at the pictures on bottom of previous page

Now here is a shot of the area just to the left of the Hygro. The gravel is the same area as the close-up shot a few pictures back. The Alternanthera in this picture is also growing strong, and so is the Star Grass and the Wisteria. For some reason, ever since I did the major change when adding the wood - the Narrow Leaf Sags, Dwarf Sags, and Pygmy Chain Swords have been sub-par, to the point where they are dying off. Only a few seem to be able to maintain their size and keep on growing new leaves.

Attached Image:

Alternanthera in Green



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Here is a shot showing the entire middle section of the tank. In itself, this part would make a nice tank, maybe I should close off the sections to the left and right of it and only use this part.

Without even trying, I am sure that there are at least 10 different plant species in this picture. Some day I will have to start scaping that mess.

Attached Image:

Mid Section Of Tank



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Ok, now to a few fish pictures.

The first one is actually from the QT, this is the boss rainbow over there. I am curious how these two groups of 3 males each (3 in main, 3 in QT) will work out the hierarchy once I move the QT group.

This is the current boss rainbow fish in the QT.

Attached Image:

Male Rainbow



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As you can see from the last picture, no sign of Ich. All visual spots on the rainbows were gone within 3 days, the Platies needed a day or two longer. Nevertheless, treatment will go on for one more week, and then I will maintain them for another 2 weeks in the QT before considering to move them to the big tank. I have to be patient although I imagine a group of 6 males as a very nice formation.

Here is the Boss Male again.

Attached Image:

Boss Male



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Next, and second to last, is a close-up of the male Apisto in the greens of the tank. With the green background and the effects of the 6,700k lighting, it seems like his base color would be yellow, but it is actually more white.

He is a beauty and I am glad I got the pair, even if there would be no breeding ever. I have seem no aggression from this fish to any other in the tank, although the younger Espei tend to stay further away from the male, just to be sure they would not end up as a snak.

Attached Image:

Male Apisto



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Here is the last shot, of the male Apisto again. This time he is swimming in front of a background that shows his natural coloration a little better.

I find his fins to be very graceful, and so is the entire behavior of this fish. There is never a situation where he darts around, he always swims slowly and is on the lookout for foor (either on the substrate or from me). All other fish in the tank take flight when I come close (they may return later though), but not the Apistos. I always pet the glass in front of them and they seem to respond by coming even closer (I know - I lost it ).

That's it for now,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Male Apisto Again



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Beautiful shots as usual Ingo. Always like to check them out. Glad the ich treatment is going well, but sorry to hear of the rainbows with suspected dropsy. I'll be interested to hear how you treat them. I lost 2 guppies to dropsy (I think - no pine coning though. They looked heavily pregnant, but being males, that wasn't the case). I tried a broad spectrum treatment and later tried sulfa, both to no avail. I hope you have better luck and that I can learn from your treatment.

Cheers
TW
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EditedEdited by tetratech
Good that I decided to buy a bottle for the other tank, or this tank, as shortly after lights on in the basement I discovered that the current bottle was going on empty

I don't know if you noticed, but I mentioned I think about 10 days ago that I had to refill my cansister on my 72g again. I also think I messed something up, because my low pressure gauge which usually reads around 10 to 20 psi is now all the way to the right at like 120

The 10lb is a good idea considering now with increased co2 I'm going thru 5lb bottles, what every 4 months or so.

Anyway, you probably don't have to take the fish out to feed them. Here's a pic of what I do to feed my rams who never get any food with the 40 or so tetras swimming around, plus two rainbows:

I simply put some food ( I usually do this with frozen bloodworms) right in the net and they swim into it. They seem to be more trusting than the cardinals



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My Scapes
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This is an awesome shot tetratech

Your rams swim right into the net for feeding, I love it. See, in my tank the male rainbows and Apistos would probably be in the net, while the females would not get a chance.
every 4 months or so
In my tank, the first 5lbs botte lasted about 23 weeks, this was when I was injecting less CO2. The last 5lbs bottle lasted only 13 weeks to reach the "almost empty" stage.

Robyn - I am not an avid fish treater. Dropsy can be cause by so many things that identifying the right medicine is a question of luck rather than symptoms. If the females will not improve within a few days, or if they get worse, then they will have to go to fish heaven

Ingo


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Thanks LF!

You could see the male is completely inside the net and if you look closely you could see the bloodworms thru the netting.

Getting back to your tank, I like the shot on top page 91 and of course the male apisto.

Not to sound like a pitchman for UV, but your spending alot on your tanks why not add a UV. Not necessarily for GW, but to rid the tanks of pathogens that might be adding to the stress of new fish. Look what happened with my cardinals when I added the UV. I have a survival rate of like 95% as opposed to 50%. I'm pretty sure many fish carry these internal bacterial infections, etc but you would'nt know it until the fish is stressed. I haven't had any ich or other visible illnesses since adding the UV. My plants are obviously not hurting over it. I once posted a forum/poll about UV usage at APC and one Greg Watson replied that he uses one 24/7.





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and one Greg Watson replied that he uses one 24/7
- One Greg Watson

I will have to think about that. Basically I understand the profits, but so far the only fish to get ill in the tank are all 3 female rainbows (one a few months back that is euthanized by now). That seems to specific to be a coincidence. I wonder why that would be? Is there maybe some issue with female Dwarf Neon Rainbows?

Oh, when you get a chance, PM me your APC screen name as I forgot it a long time ago. Bensaf's and mine are not that hard to figure out.

Ingo


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Well, the fist female rainbow has been put down. After lights on this morning I noticed that she still was close to the surface at all times and rather often than not went up for air. Also, there were two noticable spots on each side that seemed odd, lighter in color with little to no texture, about 1/2 inch in diameter.

She didn't put up a fight when I captured her, she must have been really weak already.

The other one seems to be doing a little better, she is interacting with the male rainbows once in a while. Interestingly, she is the one with the more distinct cones.

Ingo


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If the females will not improve within a few days, or if they get worse, then they will have to go to fish heaven
Sadly, that's where mine went. Sorry about your Rainbow.

Cheers
TW
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Thanks Robyn,

I guess that kind of stuff happens, and we can only go so far when trying to "save" one or the other of them. Maybe the other one will pull through, she certainly is way more active now and eats well (although she did not like the peas that I tried to give her today again, one bite and she had enough of it, just like my son).

Ingo


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Ingo,

I don't blame it with the peas. Yuck . Sorry to hear the other one didn't make it. Hopefully this will be the end of your fish troubles for a while. You have enough to worry about with setting up the new tank.

They tank pictures look great as usual. I still can't get over how cool that apisto is.

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Thanks Rick for the input,

Yeah, the Apistos are very nice, but I think your 10G would be too small for them (in case you wondered), for two reasons:

- The 8 fish you added this week
- The territory that a male Apisto requires to claim his own

All you have to do now is show these pictures to your wife very often until she likes them as much as you do. Once hooked it is easy to convince her that you would "have to have" a larger tank for them

Ingo


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I've shown her pictures of a lot of tanks. The problem is she wants new furniture in the living room. So she is effectivly holding any large tanks hostage until she has a whole living room set.

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Yeah, I know how that goes. I had to promise to move out of my office in order to "squeeze" in the new tank for the basement.

You give some and you get some, in fish tanks and everything else in life.

Ingo


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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Weekly Tank Update - Week 37

Gang,

I don't have too much to report on the tank this weekend as I was very busy yesterday setting up the 40G Breeder. That tank has now It's Own Log, in case you haven't seen it yet.

The biggest thing besides trimming was a dicovery that happened in connection with the other tank. When setting up that tank I thought that the light looks so much whiter than the one on this tank. I thought they may have given me the wrong bulb for the 40, but it is a 6,700K. So I assumed my light in the big tank may be buring out or something. I looked at the lights and what do I find: I have the 5,000K lights on as the main lights for 10 hours a day but added the 6,700K only for one hour midday. Could that be the reason for my algae problems? I think 5,000K is not bad, but could it be that it favors growth of algae more by not being optimum for plants? Let me know what you think.

On to the trimming: The tank was in serioud need of a trimming as I did let it grow so I have clippings for the 40. Unfortunately I don't have a before picture, but I will show the shots of the last 3 weeks and you can estimate on how tall the Star Grass and the Hygro angustifolia must have become.

Here is the tank 3 weeks ago, after its last trimming:

Attached Image:

3 Weeks Ago



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Just a week later, growth had already picked up again. I sure cannot complain about the speed with which my fast growers shoot up.

If it should be the case that they grow even faster with 6,700K all day then I will have to trim soon every other week.

Here is the tank 2 weeks ago.

Attached Image:

2 Weeks Ago



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Last weekend was the time when the tank should have had a trim, but I decided to wait until this weekend. This is always risky as, in particular with the star grass, very little to no light reaches the bottom anymore and the lower parts of the plants start to rot. This, of course, is not good for the water condition.

Here is the tank last weekend, the Star Grass is already on the surface in various spots.

Attached Image:

Last Weekend



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Here is the tank now after this weekends trimming. The process was a bit unusual as I first went in and cut off some nice looking tops from the Star Grass, Hygro angustifolia, and Wisteria to add them to the new 40G. After that tank was set up I uprooted all star grass, weeded out the bad stems, and replanted the shortened stems.

I did not trim anything else as the day was winding down, when all was said and done I had spent 12 hours on the two tanks. As such, the tank doesn't look its best. I already switched which lights are on for the full day, to the 6,700K.

Here is the tank last night:

Attached Image:

This Weekend



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I also only have 2 detail shots.

The first one is of the Espei. Because I was messing around all day in the room (setting up the other tank), they must have been "a little worried". I have never seen them school so nicely for such an extended period of time and not only during a water change or when someone bangs at the tank. Let me tell you, 70 fish in formation is a beautiful sight that cannot be captured in a picture.

Here are some of the Espei in a colorful aquascape.

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Espei in Scape



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Last picture already:

This is the upper middle section after the trim. The Star Grass is not even really visible anymore, the bright green comes from a huge Wisteria stem that eventually will need trimming itself.

I took this picture because I like the color contrast between plants and wood.

Attached Image:

Colors



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EditedEdited by FRANK
Hi,
Beautiful pictures LF.
When I started using timers and advocating timers on the
aquarium, my goal was to mimic the tropical noon day sun.

Our plants have been grouped into low, medium, and high
demand categories.

Generally the low demand plants are
plants that grow under a heavy canopy of overhead trees
that block out most of the light, and we figure these to
flourish with around 1-1.5 watts per gallon.

Medium demand plants generally receive some direct sunlight
during only a part of the day and spend the remainder
shaded. These flourish with 2 watts per gallon.

High demand plants grow out in the open and receive direct
sunlight all or most of the daylight hours. These plants
do best with 3+ watts per gallon.

In my 30G tank, I have two 65 watt, 6700K compact
fluorescent bulbs. Each has its own timer as I'm rarely
around to turn the things on/off with any regularity.
My canopy has two switches, one for each light and one
that turns on the fan/light combination. The light/fan
combination is connected to a timer that gives me 10 hours
of light at a 2.5 watt/gallon rate. The second light is
set for four hours in the middle of the 10 hours, to
simulate the directly overhead sunlight and gives me
4.3 watts/gallon, or, noonday sunlight on my tank.

In experimenting with fast growing stem plants, and slow
growing plants such as ferns and crypts, I have found that
allowing the stem plants to hit the surface and spread out
across it, provides a "canopy" that shades the low light
plants. It looks really natural, and at the same time
encourages the lower light demand plants to grow faster
and with larger leaves. I tried experimenting with the
thickness of the "mat" that the stem plants created, and
found that one or two layers were, for me, more ideal
than 3 or 4 layers. The larger number of layers made the
center of the tank a bit too dark, for me. It was just
too subdued.
I found that if I neglected to thin out the mat, and
then later "drastically" cut it back to expose
direct light on the plants, that some of my plants
would flower and then the flowers would close up over
a week or so as the stem plants were again allowed
to spread across the surface.

The Tetras that I have in the tank, seem to be more
comfortable with a one or two layer of plants across the
surface swimming throughout the tank, whereas they some
times avoided the open center "swimming area" when there
was just open space above.

Just some thoughts/observations.

Frank


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Frank,

Do you store these statements on your PC so you can pull them out whenever a related question arises or do you have to write these "books" over and over again

I assume your entry was in reference to my light question. I would like to thank you for this truely elaborate answer .

Ingo


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EditedEdited by FRANK
Hi Ingo,
No, they are not stored. Yup, I wrote it in response to
your lighting comments. I guess it is the ex-teacher in
me that causes me to write tomes, instead of one liners.
The one burning question I have always had, and drove my
parents and teachers nutz with was a simple word...WHY.

I have never been one to accept something just because it
was told to me. Burnt fingers (something was hot that
should not have been), and painted fingers (is it really
wet) were sort of my "trademark."
Honestly, I hope it helped you, or at least gave
you something to think about, and I hope it helps
your readers.

Frank



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EditedEdited by tetratech
Frank,

That is a wonderful analysis of how one's canopy affects the other plants in the tank. I hope aquarists will take advantage of that very nicely crafted response.

Makes me think about my tank alot as my main center area reaches the top every few weeks. I actually love the way it looks sometimes with the plants growing across the surface, but if I keep it going to long my Blyxa and riccia are out of luck, but as you point out when the canopy is trimmed I could see the Blyxa and Riccia smiling again.

Well done

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Frank - - I can imagine how you used to simply talk a student silly when he/she questioned why he/she got a particular grade on a test.

Thanks again for writing so much on the topic on lighting, and shading, but I nevertheless have to dig into my original question again:

Could it be that the fact that the 5,000K were on for 10 to 11 hours, and the 6,700K only for 1 to 3 hours, has caused my algae issue to be as bad as it is?

On the general statement of shading and plants growing along the top, I couldn't agree more with you. Every time I do a water change the plants hanging over the rest of the tank look just stunning. But, be carful what you shade out. I once lost almost all my Ludwigia because I decided that my Crypt Retrospirals floating over it looks very nice. Almost too late did I discover the fact that half the Ludwigia were already dead.

Ingo


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EditedEdited by FRANK
Hi Ingo,
Back to the original question... Answer - I'm not sure.

Ben seems to think that algae is caused, not necessarily
by the light, but by the nutrients or lack of within any
given tank.

I suspect, in your case, that the problem lies with what
you have in the tank as plants. You are trying to
house over a dozen different species, all with different
demands, in the same tank.

The difference in lighting, I don't believe, is helping
your situation at all and frankly, I'd switch to two lights
of the same K rating. As you probably can guess, I'd use
the 6700K rating for my choice. The 5000K rating is more at
the red end than the 6700K. While I mention that, keep
an eye on the age of the bulbs. As they age, they shift
in output. Not necessarily so drastically that we
humans notice it, but they do shift in Kelvin rating
as the bulb ages. I have seen, and read about, algae
retreating when aged bulbs are replaced. To combat that
in my tank, when it comes time to replace my Compact
Fluorescent bulbs, I throw away the bulb that is the
10hr/day bulb, and move the 4 hr/day into its place.
Then I place the new bulb into the 4 hr slot and so on
each year.

With light as the engine, and the nutrients as the fuel,
the plants grow. As we know, they take up nutrients at
different rates, depending upon the species. Also some
species are more adept at taking nutrients from the water
column, and others from the substrate depending upon the
chemical form of the nutrient. Perhaps you have added
some form of nutrient that is tipping the scales as it
is not usable in its current form by some/many of the
plants.

Have you removed the bulk of the "fast growing" plants
and, over time, replaced them with too few slow growing
plants, or vice versa?

I realize I'm casting a rather large net here, but I don't
honestly know THE problem with your tank. I suspect that
the tank has aged as a whole, and all of the changes that
have occurred, along with the plant mix, and the nutrient
"soup" has lead to the algae problem. It took my 55 a
little over a year, with growing Oscars in it, to mature
and settle down. All these variables... the scale has
tilted to favor algae.

Lots to think about, but nothing definitive to act on.
Perhaps Ben might have some thoughts...

Frank


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EditedEdited by bensaf
To be honest having tried all sorts of bulbs (At the moment I have a strange mixture of 10,000K, 12,000k and 4,700k) I've never seen anything to suggest that plants prefer one spectrum over the other and certainly nothing to suggest one spectrum promotes algae more then another.

Where the more reddish spectrums do have a problem is penetrating the water, the vast majority of the light is dissapated before it gets down to the bottom. This may cause issues where the lower tiers of plants are not getting enough light and don't grow as well as they could.

This may cause issues but it's an indirect impact rather then a direct "5000k is no good for plants" or "5000k promotes algae" thing.

I'd certainly change it around and have the 6700k on most of the time. If nothing else the tank will look better to the eye.


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I'd certainly change it around and have the 6700k on most of the time
That is what I did this weekend. Actually, I literally had to switch the bulbs in the unit as one row is connected to the fan (the one that comes on midday when all lights are on) and simply switching powercords in sockets would have meant that the fan would have been on all day. That, in turn, is noisy, a waste of energy, and burns out the fans faster.

I hear you Bensaf on the K not directly causing the algae, but I also read the indirect effects it can have. This makes sense to me and I can assume that the earlier constellation of my lights caused more bottom plant rotting and as such more algae. I guess the switch should help then.

On a different topic: I had to put down the other female rainbow in the QT last night, she was not eating anymore and constantly on the surface . That means that the only fish I lost so far in the big tank (don't count initial loss of Otos) are all 3 female rainbows. Coincidence?

Ingo


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Hi,
Interesting...
Actually, I would recommend that you run the fan all the
time a bulb is burning. In other words, the exact opposite
of the way you have yours set up. Compact Flourscent
bulbs burn hot. The heat in combination with the humidity
can cause the electrical insulation to become brittle and
crack. Additionally, the heat can affect the clear plastic
pannel that slides between the bulb and the tank (splash
guard).
In my fish room, I run three computers and two transmitters
all with fans, 24/7/365, so I don't even notice the
fan noises.

I suggest that you might want to reverse your thinking on
the light/fan.

Frank


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Frank,

Good thinking, but no .

The fixture is designed to have the fans on only when all 4 lights (96w each) are turned on. Heat emission is not an issue with 2 lights only (remember, they form a line and are not paralell to each other) and the smaller units (any single strip PC from Coralife) don't even come with fans.

In addition, the unit is elevated on legs so enough air circulation is present around the lights. And on top of it all, the tank is in the basement that is rather cool, even during hot summer months.

I a room where the Eheim filters hum so quietly that I have to get real close to check if they still work, the sound of two fans is really obvious. Right now, I can hear the bubbles emitting from the diffuser, that is pleasant, in particular if just one floor up the monsters (aka kids) are on the lose.

Silence and tranquility, nothing goes better with fish

Ingo


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I suggest that you might want to reverse your thinking on the light/fan

Interesting, I do currently have my fan on all day, only because it's linked to the front bulb of my fixture and I want the bowfront to get the most light possible. I also have a coralife dual cf and it only comes with one fan. I used to have a Current USA fixture that was also dual cf and it actually came with 2 separate fans on their own powercords and it was a real pain to plug in 4 separate fixtures. The coralife fixtures do run surprisingly cool and even with my fixture sitting only an inch or so above the glass top there are no issues. The Current USA fixtures used to run extremely hot even with the two noisy fans running. I have a very low opinion of their products and they can't hold a candle to Coralife.

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Oh, speaking of brands and the quality of their products:

Nice story, I ordered 3 200W Stealth heaters a little while ago, one for the 40, and one each for the 125 and 29. Before that, I already purchased 2 of them. Overall, I opened 4 packages so far (the fifth is still in the box) and 2 of them had pieces missing (suction cups and holders for them).

So, on Sunday I e-mailed the maker of the heaters stating that issue and on Monday morning I had a reply asking me for my address and that they are going to send out these pieces asap.

Very nice,

Ingo


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Nice story, I ordered 3 200W Stealth heaters a little while ago, one for the 40, and one each for the 125 and 29. Before that, I already purchased 2 of them. Overall, I opened 4 packages so far (the fifth is still in the box) and 2 of them had pieces missing (suction cups and holders for them).


That's Marineland right? That could also be a distributor issue also? If the boxes don't have a wrapping on them those little parts end up falling out alot.

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No tetratech, that's Aquarium Systems. And the heaters are sealed in a plastic container too strong to be opened with the teeth.

I also told them that, in particular because of the solid packaging that had not been tempered with, I decided not to e-mail the distributer (reseller) but them directly.

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EditedEdited by tetratech
Oh O.K. I thought it was one of those unwrapped boxes with the stuff just thrown inside.

Anyway talk about quality control. I bought a pair of Nike Shox. Actually my wife did because I tore a ligament in my knee and she thought the extra cushion would help. So I'm walking around, just walking and "boom" I go down, one of the shox fell off. So here I am wearing these sneakers to help me and they hurt me. I returned them for another pair and a week later "boom" a shox falls off the second pair. Serious manufacturer defect, so I go back again and the retail store wouldn't take them back because I didn't have my receipt this time.

I don't tink so Let's just say the store was unable to ring up any more merchandise until they reconsidered and gave me credit.

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So taking care of the customers: At my store the bosses wont carry a product if the the owners of that product wont back the store on issues with it. If the store doesn't get backed then it is hard to help the customers.

Lighting: On my tank I have a mix of fast and slow growers. Much more fast than slow growers. I don't really know what I want to do with the tank yet but I am thinking of putting all the slow growers tucked up clow the fast growers. Hoping that this will kill off any of the spot algea I have been gettng on them.

Rainbows: Are these guys touchy with Ph swings? I have been losing them in my tank really slowly with no signs. In my tank right now the Ph is about 7.2 in the AM before the lights/CO2 come on, about 6.8 at night right before the lights/CO2 go off. Normal Ph for here is about 8.2 or 8.4. Might this be the cause for loss?

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tetratech - I can only imagine how you were holding the store hostage

wings - I don't think a ph swing of 0.4 would cause too many fish to die. I recently was at my most trusted LFS and mentioned the loss of all of my females. The guy in charge of ordering said that he loses quite a few of them during shipment. Maybe they are not all that hardy, but he has no explanation on why I may have lost only females. Also, if I remember that right, then females also have a deeper body when they mature. Mine never did and they were rather streamlined. Just maybe I didn't even have female rainbows.

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tetratech
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tetratech - I can only imagine how you were holding the store hostage
Yeah I guess I was kinda holding the store hostage or more like "a fly in the ointment" I was really pissed.

Anyway should I be worried about my Bosemani. How long did you guys have them before seeing problems?

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I have my rainbows since at least 3 to 4 months, I can check for you.

I don't think you should be worried though as all males are doing just great.

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Anyway should I be worried about my Bosemani.

I have had two male bosemani's in another tank for about 3 years now with no problems what so ever. Its the dwarf blue neon rainbows that are dropping dead on me. Don't seem to be having too many problems with that at work though. Don't see them coming in dead or anything like that or dropping like flys once we get them. That's probaby why ours are 2.99 a pop and yours are... well a lot more.

How much swing are your tanks running?

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Currently, juvenile Dwarf Neons are $20 at my LFS.

My swing is probably from 7 just before lights on down to 6.5 before lights out. All normal, as in nature swings occur as well, but actually I believe they occur the other way around.

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Post InfoPosted 14-Jun-2006 00:37Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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I think I paid $12.99 a piece for my Bosemani, 2 for $25.

BTW - My ph is around 6.0 at nite with a kh of 2 or 3. I'll have to test tomorrow morning to find swing.



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Tetra,
You are about the same as me for the Bosemani but I should probably start shipping dwarf blues to LF. It would probably be cheaper even with shipping.

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It probably would, Wings, I will have to think about that.

Do you folks have females in the store? If so, how do they look different from the males? I would need about 9 females

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Ok,

I have to talk ferts again, sorry about that

While suggesting to someone else here to read up on EI and stuff, I saw that he has an EI "light" for the less techical aspects of the Estimative index article on his site. Curious as I am (), I looked into it and found some estimates for dosing a tank of my size. I then compared it to what I am dosing and find that I am rather way off in certain areas (my values in brackets):

100 - 125 Gallon Aquarium
+/- 1 1/2 tsp KN03 3x a week (yup - right on)
+/- 1/2 tsp KH2P04 3x a week (1/8 - way off)
+/- 1/2 tsp K2S04 3x a week (not at all - way off)
+/- 1/2 tsp (30ml) Trace 3x a week (60ml TMG - double)
50% weekly water change (yup)

What do you think?

Ingo


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I have to talk ferts again, sorry about that

You should be!

To what end. To make your algae go bye-bye or to make the plants grow better? If the plants are growing well which I think they are, why do you keep turning to the ferts as the problem. I've changed so many differenct dosing schemes in my tank. Added fe, double my micro dosing, moved up my no3, moved down my no3 not for algae but to see if I could get more red, etc and it didn't affect algae one bit.




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You should be!
- Ok, I am

I don't know for what specific purpose I brought that up, it was just a general observation on how far off I am from the "default" EI values. For example the fact that I dose 1/4 of the P that is set here.

In general, this makes me wonder if what I am doing dosing wise with my tank can actually still be considered "following EI". Or, is EI layed out so broadly that it's only commonality is to have ferts (of all kinds) available to the tank at any point, and as such they are overfed to avoid a short-coming?

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EditedEdited by Wingsdlc
40-60 Gallon Aquariums (figured this was better than the 20-40 gallon)
+/- 1/2 tsp KN03 3x a week (yup)
+/- 1/8 tsp KH2P04 3x a week (yup)
+/- 1/8 tsp K2S04 3x a week (1/2 tsp, ouch)
+/- 1/8 (10ml) Trace Elements 3x a week (umm I have been giving them two 2L caps of flourish, whatever that is.
50% weekly water change (Yup)

Plants grow (yup)
Algea (just a little green spot but I think thats cuz my low light plants are not shaded enough)

Edit: I vote for the lader.

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Post InfoPosted 15-Jun-2006 13:57Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by tetratech
Or, is EI layed out so broadly that it's only commonality is to have ferts (of all kinds) available to the tank at any point, and as such they are overfed to avoid a short-coming?


Yeah, kinda of? LF every plant needs it's ferts, light, carbon, but every tank is somwhat different and how it will react to the available light, shade, fish load, plant mass, types of plants. There are too many variables. You need to find the thing that works for your tank. If the plants are growing well forget the ferts that's for fine-tuning. You must look at light,waste,load to balance tank my young grasshopper.

And after Germany wins in the 90th minute!




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And after Germany wins in the 90th minute!
At least we win

Yeah, but there is a difference between fine tuning and using 4 times the amount of KH2P04 and 1/2tsp of K2S04 or none at all .

How do I know how well my growth could be if I had other fert dosages?

Ingo


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LF,
Best thing to do is to set it and don't mess with it for months. If you want to change something do it little by little and then run that for a while.

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Do you folks have females in the store? If so, how do they look different from the males? I would need about 9 females

Females? Less color on body and fins, and a little fater than the more colorful males? Yeah we have a handful of them.

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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
and a little fater than the more colorful males
Fatter? How about depth? Is the female's body as deep as the male's? I perused the web for female Dwarf Neon Rainbows and while most pictures seem to show males, the few that I found that are titled female seem to show the shape of a male with a different fin coloration.

Now, here is once again a shot of 2 of my rainbows, one male and the other supposedly female. Wings, is that how your females look like?

Ingo

EDIT: While the males over the last few months went from the pictured shape to the deeper bodied adult form, the females never changed their shape.

Attached Image:

Female and Male???



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LF,
Yup you have it right. Female on the left, male on the right. Females tend to be a little thicker from left to right or right to left also. Biggest differences are fin color and body height.

I am not sure on a complete count from work but we have a good handful of them.

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From the pictures on page 91(we going to hit 100 soon?) the tank seems to still be doing nicely. I agree with the statement on EI, that it mostly doesn't matter as long as things are balanced and the plants are getting plenty of ferts. I used up all of my hour( community internet ) just reading the last couple pages in this thread, so the response is short, .



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Thanks for the input Wings and Matty

Matty - While the tank is still doing nicely, it is not doing great. I would like to see some changes soon as by now there is very little design left and lots of sucking up ferts going on.

Which brings me to:

Weekly Tank Update - Week 38

Very little to nothing has happened with this tank during this week. It seems that I see a slow come-back of the BBA now that I stopped the Excel treatment for 2 weeks, I believe.

When I look at this tank these days I am getting very restless. I am aware that I have too many fish in there and also that the scape is nowhere near of what I thought the tank should look like. All is pointing towards a major overhaul yet again, but we all know what that did the last time around. Definately the large wood will have to change, in particular the big stomp part of it has to go and most likely the overall position had to be moved further off center.

Otherwise, growth is just fine, this weekend I had to thin out the Hygro group quite a bit as it got too tall and shaded the right tank side way too much. While trimming I also removed some other plants by accident and had to replant them as well.

Here is the tank last weekend, for comparison purposes:

Attached Image:

Last Weekend, Week 37



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And here it is now. Also, two stems of the Alternanthera had to be trimmed (bottoms disposed) as they reached the surface. While it doesn't look bad now, it doesn't look good either

Attached Image:

Week 38, This Weekend



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I am also wondering which plants from this tank will go into the new 40G. There is for sure the Blixa and most likely the 5 Anubias Nana Petites that I have, and also maybe the Java Fern (Narrow Leaf) that is pictured here. I hope this plant will not break when I will try to remove it from its lodged position between the wood and the rock behind it. One thing is for sure, it has grown nicely from these 5 little leaves that it originally was.

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Narrow Leaf Java Fern



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On to a few fish pictures. First off - a rainbow. Although it is not that obvious when you look at these fish in the tank directly, the pictures alway make it clear that they truely have puppy eyes that always seem to focus on the camera (counts for tetratech's rainbows as well).

Attached Image:

Male Rainbow



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I spent about half an hour after this weekends water change searching for my female Apisto. I am always worried that the small fish I have somehow get lost or that I cut them in half when I trim the plants. Fortunately, I eventually found her. She has one of these "mostly hiding" phases that may be breeding related.

Anyway, here is a nice sequence on how male and female communicate these days. This shot shows the moment after the female reaches the back of the male during an encounter. I immediately spreads his fins and shows off all his beauty, but given that the black bar under his eye is not showing I assume it is meant to be a friendly encounter.

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Apistos I



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Can you see how his eye seems to be fixed on her?

Next, as he lets his finnage down a little, the female starts to show off, here is is just about to spread them.

Attached Image:

Apistos II



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And lastly, he follows her signs and spreads his fins again. Then, he dissapears into the plants, but she is not following him. Instead, she has her own area, somewhere in the Anubias realm, where she seems to hang out.

What does that mean? - I have no idea,

Attached Image:

Apistos III



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Last but not least,

In case you wonder (), as I mentioned before, I always have an Anubias (Nana and/or Barteri) in bloom, but most of the time the flowers are not standing out before a dark background and as such don't make for a nice picture. This weekend, I trimmed of 3 flower stems that were pretty much done, I have another one on its way out, one that is coming in, and this one here.

Have fun, as usual input is appreciated,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Anubias Flower



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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Everything looking beautiful as usual. But don't those apisto fins look especially fine when spread. Very nice

Cheers
TW
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Thanks Robyn,

Yeah, the spread finnage is really beautiful, I agree. He does the same thing when he is telling other fish to stay away from him, except he has a black bar below his eye (running through the eye downwards) in that case. He can turn that bar off and on within seconds (or a second).

Ingo


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Quick comments, becuase it's Father's Day, but if the plants are growing well then forget the ferts, EI is working. I read thread and thread again on APC and other forums where people are running alot of light on big tanks and they can't contain algae growth. 380-400 watts is alot of light and it gives you no room for error. Error is fish load, fish waste, feeding, inadequate biofilter, inadequate plant mass, not enough water changes. Even if you running all the lights for only a few hours a day it will grow algae.

It's really not that complicated once you see the bigger picture.

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It's really not that complicated once you see the bigger picture.


Tetra,
I guess you are saying that LF doesn't get it yet?

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I don't get it



Sure do I hear you tetratech, but I am not going to flush 50 Espei down the drain

Actually, I wasn't complaining about the algae during this posting session, I was complaining about the design of things

Ingo


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Oh I know you get it LF and of course my comments are just that my comments. I was about to respond to Wings by saying when you have a big tank setup it's hard to make big changes to correct a problem.

Right now I have a pretty heavy load in my tank so I'm not exactly practicing what I'm preaching, but there is a difference in how I got to my heavy stocking levels and how you got to yours. I think my stocking levels came at a much slower pace than yours did. I slowly added cardinals 5 at a time, then after months I added the two rainbows and finally the two small rams. As you know tanks always do better with slow gradual changes. That's how nature works it's magic!





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I didn't quite add 100 fish at a time either. When you look at the fish that I added then you would end up with:

- 12 espei
- 3 rainbows
- 2 pearls
- 6 otos
- 2 apistos

And that is it

Not all that much, given about 7 months until all these had been added. If it wouldn't be for the 100 babies then I would be in good shape

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 19-Jun-2006 14:25Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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If it wouldn't be for the 100 babies then I would be in good shape


100 baby espei
1400 poops between water changes (200 poops per day x 7)
390 watts of cf lighting

= PROTIST ORGY

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Hi,
I was reading Wings' fert listing, and for my 30G tank
I decided to knock down the amounts a tad to use say,
a 1/4 tsp vs the half, etc. Right now, I still have
the cyanobacteria, but, I also now have very fine hair
algae growing at the upper levels with the strands
"flowing" in the currents.. Actually looks nice, but will
soon turn into a problem.

Have any of you guys actually tested your water just
before your water changes to see what kind of nitrate
and phosphate readings you have after adding this stuff
three times a week?
Frank


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Post InfoPosted 19-Jun-2006 16:19Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by NowherMan6
PROTIST ORGY


Geeeez, a guy goes on vacation for a week and his favorite plant/ fish site turns X rated!

Nice pics as usual, LF. Your algae problem seems to be much more under control now


Back in the saddle!
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tetratech
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EditedEdited by tetratech
Have any of you guys actually tested your water just
before your water changes to see what kind of nitrate
and phosphate readings you have after adding this stuff
three times a week?
Frank


Frank,
Sounds like your "Micromanaging your macros"
LF's plants are growing quite well. I could tell you I fool around with my po4 and no3 dosing all the time for color and growth reasons and it doesn't bring out algae one bit and I've had po4 levels over 5.0ppm (according to the test kits anyway) LF's algae issue is LAW (Light and Waste).

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LF's algae issue is LAW
I like that, sounds somehow good. As in:

"I had no other choice, it's the LAW!"

Thanks NowherMan6 I missed you. Yeah, it is pretty stable now with the same amount of algae, that's why I consider messing with the design again (slapping myself so you guys don't have to).

Frank - 30G, that is net about maybe 25G. I have 5 times the volume and feed 1.5tps 3x per week, and at the end of the week I probably have around 20 to 40 ppm, and maybe 5 ppm of P. But I haven't measured in ages.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 19-Jun-2006 19:11Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Frank,
Last time I checked my Nitrate before the water change I had about 20ppm. I figure thats pretty good up take when I have added in about 33ppm + fish load and over extra food. I will do some testing and get back to you say.... in a week. One big factor I am looking at with this is plant mass ( with fast and slow growers) pluse lighting. I have a ton of fast growers and very few slow growers in my tank. With that I am running 3.25 WPG for about 12 hours/day. This is a little more that most are doing for lighting so you just kind of estimate and see what happens.

Do I get it tetra?

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Gang,

Still having a broken router in the house, and as such no internet access, I was having a little too much time on my hand last evening and decided to add the Rainbows from the QT into the main tank. For the ones that don't know it, and the ones that may not remember, I had 3 Neon Dwarf Rainbows each in this tank and the QT.

So, here is a little picture story:

Moving Rainbows in 9 Acts

Act 1: The Bag

The rainbows were not the hardest to catch in the QT (compared to Espei it was easy). Here they are in the bag:

Attached Image:

In the Bag



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Act 2: The Release

After about 1.5 hours of acclimatization, the rainbows were releases into the tank. They instantly went into semi-hiding at the Pearl Grass all the way to the right of the tank, just below the bag they had been in. This shot was taken about 20 seconds after the last rainbow left the bag:

Attached Image:

Rainbows in Pearl Grass



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Act 3: Starting to Move

2 minutes later the whole group moved out of the Pearl Grass and into the open area to the left of it. They held this position for about 2 more minutes, always in close proximity to each other. The 3 rainbows that are already in the tank did not come anywhere near.

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Moving Out



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Act 4: First Encounter

The first fish to confront the new additions was the male Apisto. As you can see, he was not too thrilled about the rainbows (black bar under the eye is visible, unlike his showing off in recent pictures towards his girl). With him coming from the right there was no other way for the rainbows then to swim all the way to the left of the tank.

Attached Image:

Apisto Displaying



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Act 5: Making Friends

With the Apisto still on their tails, the first meeting of new and a resident rainbow took place. So far, 5 minutes have passed since the rainbows were added. BTW, during all that time (and counting for the next pictures as well, Espei and Pearls ignore the rainbows and are ignored by them).

Attached Image:

First Friend



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Post InfoPosted 20-Jun-2006 13:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Act 6: First Formation

Finally, about 7 minutes after addition, the rainbows found each other and formed a school for the first time (to the backdrop of a 50 Espei school). This was most likely due to the fact that the Apstio was as agressive as I have never seen him before.

Attached Image:

The School Comes Together



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Act 7: Playing in Formation

For the next 2 minutes, rainbows played with the formation, individuals breaking away and coming back, changing positions, and what not. This may be truly the beginning of 2 groups coming together and starting to evaluate the new ranking order.

Attached Image:

Play in the Formation



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Act 8: Intruder Alert

All internal group activity was halted for a while as the Apistos were not yet done with explaining who rules this tank. As you can see, the female comes at them from the front and the male from the back, putting them in a position where a confrontation is unavoidable. And so it happened, the male Apisto made physical contact, nipped at the tail fin of one rainbow and attacked another from the side. I hope that will stop soon. I will be able to validate any damage tonight.

Attached Image:

Apistos on the Attack



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Post InfoPosted 20-Jun-2006 13:41Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Act 9: The Finale

Whenever the Apistos gave them a break, the rainbows went back into formation. At the time of this picture I felt that the acclimatization was completed as the internal rank fights started. The individual leaders of the two groups were the first to have show-off fights, establishing who is going to be the boss of the new bigger group. I am most certain that quite a few of these fights will still come within the next few days until all is straightened out.

The End

Attached Image:

Internal Ranking Games



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Post InfoPosted 20-Jun-2006 13:43Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Nice pics LF. I really like the one (2nd from bottom) where the two apistos are on either end.

You know when I first started doing my 72g I swore I would make it an S.A. Biotope, but obviously that didn't happen since I have fish and plants from S. America and Asia.

My Bolivans and now the Rams pay no attention to my two rainbows. The only aggression I see is the rainbows chasing some of the tetras mostly after lights out.

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Post InfoPosted 20-Jun-2006 15:31Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Beautiful pictures of beautiful fish. I have serious camera envy & wish I could take pics like these.

Cheers
TW
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TW,
Feel your pain with the camera issue. But some day soon things might change.

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Hey, no envy or jealousy please,

Or I send you some of my algae issues

Thank you very much for the comments on the pictures. I actually was hoping you would find the story (aka observation) at least to some degree interesting as well

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 21-Jun-2006 01:05Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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Of course the story was interesting & I hope the apisto decides to live & let live in peace. However, your pics can't help to tell the story, especially the one with both male & female apisto both facing off the rainbow shoal.

Cheers
TW
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Robyn,

I know, the words were only to carify the pictures, in case they didn't make any sense by themselves

Last night there was still the occasional stand-off with fins spread out by the male Apisto, but I have not seen any further physical contact between them. Also, everybody seems to still have all their eyes, a good thing. So I guess that means all is good.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 21-Jun-2006 10:24Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Weekly Tank Update - Week 39

Not much new to report on the tank for this week, I guess things are getting boring now. The only change was the addition of the 3 male Dwarf Neon Rainbows from the QT (yes, I know, even more fish in the tank), all of which are doing well.

There was no major trimming required and all I did was to prune off some of the leaves that had some algae on them (BBA is coming back slowly).

Here is the tank during the last two weeks, followed by a few fish shots and a hint on something (more later).

That was the tank after the last major trim 2 weeks ago

Attached Image:

2 Weeks Ago



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Post InfoPosted 25-Jun-2006 11:53Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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One week later, the Star Grass had grown a little and the Hygro group saw some more trimming as additional stems were removed so that they could help filling up the 40G.

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One Week Ago



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Post InfoPosted 25-Jun-2006 11:55Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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The only trimming done this weekend that was not algae related concerned the Wisteria. A few stems had to be cut because they were growing into the plants near by. These trimmings currently float in the 20G QT as the 40G seems to have enough plants in it.

Here is the tank now:

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Tank After Water Change This Weekend



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Post InfoPosted 25-Jun-2006 11:57Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Here is a shot of the Espei about 1 minute after the lights in the tank went on. Like almost all fish, they are pretty pale and it takes about 15 min before their bright orange returns. I find fish coloration an amazing thing, in particular when they can change colors at will (like the bar under the eye of the male Apisto):

Attached Image:

Espei in the Morning



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Post InfoPosted 25-Jun-2006 11:59Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Speaking of the Apisto, here is a shot of the male, just for the fun of it and because Robyn just recently got her Apistos (although they are a different species, but never the less somewhat related). He is, BTW, no longer chasing after the Rainbows, I assume they know by now that he is their boss. The only fish in the tank that doesn't think so is the male Pearl, he is completely unphased by the Apisto's prouncing.

Attached Image:

Male Apisto



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Post InfoPosted 25-Jun-2006 12:02Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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And speaking of the male Pearl, here is a group shot of male (on the left) and female Pearls, a rainbow peeking in, and the female Apisto telling all of them to leave her alone.

The male Pearl spends a good part of the day chasing the female Pearl through the tank. I doesn't look like he follows her, it's more like he want's her to go away. Nevertheless, she is always coming back to him. Love? I don't know.

Attached Image:

Group Shot



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Post InfoPosted 25-Jun-2006 12:05Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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And here is the tip (or whatever I wrote on the last page) that I was speaking about. Being the lazy bum that I am, I find the routine of cleaning the glass diffuser rather involved. Bathing the whole thing in a bleach solution, then rinsing it in a Prime solution, and then adding it back into the tank takes time and is to some degree a waste producer (bleach and conditioner down the drain).

Almost by chance, I tried the following:

Having my diffuser rather high up in the tank exposes the top part during water changes for about 15 to 30 min (I will have to time it some day). As soon as the top is in the open I swipe the water off it and drip Flourish Excel on it until it is covered (the area above the plate). And that is it - and what can I say, I haven't bleached the sucker in about 4 t 5 weeks now and it is still clean. You can see the difference from before adding Excel to 20 min later.

Maybe you want to give this method a try, it is better for the environment and seems to work well. I have not done it long enough to conclude that one never has to bleach again.

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Diffuser - New Cleaning Method



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Post InfoPosted 25-Jun-2006 12:13Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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I'm lazy too, so I'll try your tip at next waterchange.

Cheers
TW
Post InfoPosted 25-Jun-2006 13:51Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Good idea Robyn,

Let us know how (and if) it worked for you. Try to make sure that you remove as much tank water from the area above the plate as possible, then fill that area (should not be more than about 3ml)with Excel, and let it sit for a while (15 min should do). The advantage on my big tank that it takes at least that long from exposure to refill as so many gallons have to go out and back in.

You could also try to lift your diffuser a little higher for the procedure (to give the Excel more time to do its work without prolonging the water change itself), a complete removal should not be required.

Again, keep us posted,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 25-Jun-2006 14:08Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I still think you guys should get an external reactor and forget about cleaning alltogether.



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Post InfoPosted 25-Jun-2006 16:33Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
FRANK
 
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Hi Matt,
I'm inclined to agree with you, especially when I purchased
a difuser for my 30G tank and the thing flopped. It was
rated for the 20G tank. It came with a suction cup
but the "glass bud" on the side of the difuser won't
slip on and hold the difuser in place. So I tried to
bury the delivery tube in gravel and prop the
difuser upright with a rock, but the tube kept working
up through the gravel. And the bubbles never did change
from one or two big bubbles into the bunches of micro
bubbles. The difuser is sitting in the box it came in.

I have thrown my internal reactor away. It demanded
even more cleaning than the difuser because it was inside
the tank (an eyesore that took up space) and was exposed
to the tank light, it would clog up with algae. To clean
the passages, I needed pipe cleaners, running water, and
lots of patience.

Frank


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Post InfoPosted 25-Jun-2006 16:45Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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hey!! i just happened to click on this 95th page and saw some pics a few posts ago of your tank. it looks really nice. i really like the yellowish fish with the black dorsal fin that is under your pearl gouramis. since i am not inclined to read 95 pages of posts (LOL), is there any way you can tell me what species that is, because I really like it. is it a dwarf cockatoo cichlid?

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Here we go,

I am writing about this great method that I figured out on how to clean a diffuser environment friendly, and what do Matty and Frank do? - Tell me I should not use one

Well, I happen to be pretty happy with mine (in 2 tanks), they are cheap, easy to clean (with Excel ), and look pretty fashionable.

Anyway, thanks for the input to both of you, Matty - I know that you have this cool self-made inline reactor, but I have enough stuff behind the tank and I like the sound of a diffuser.

Little Caesar - Close on the guess of the fish. It is a female Apistogramma viejita II. She is a beauty, isn't she?

On a different note: Would you folks be so kind and look at my 20G Log in the Aquascaping Forum? I have something new there On Page 5. Also, I would appreciate if a Moderator or Administrator who may read this would be so nice and move that log (and please the 29G log at the same location) to this forum. I would really like to have all my logs over here in the Planted Forum, that is more where they belong to. Thanks in advance, to the mods for moving the stuff and anybody else who may add a comment to it.


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jun-2006 03:21Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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Anyway, thanks for the input to both of you, Matty - I know that you have this cool self-made inline reactor, but I have enough stuff behind the tank and I like the sound of a diffuser.


Ah LF, I know by now that you have settled on your method of choice, I just like to give you a hard time about it any chance I get. I'm glad you found an easier way of cleaning it, sounds like it makes them easier to use.



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Post InfoPosted 26-Jun-2006 04:17Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
FRANK
 
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Hi LF,
Your wish is my command... Your thread is moved.

I don't recall saying anything about not using the
difuser. I know you, Ben, and others, swear by them.
I cuss at mine. As you read, its never worked right,
won't stick to the side of the tank, and is residing
in a box in the garage. Too bad to, it was an
expensive little critter.

My reactor did not work out very well either. After
several years, I tired of cleaning it constantly. It
was very labor intensive. So I took a page from your
book and a couple of others and ran the CO2 output from
the bubble counter to the air intake port on my UGF power
head, stuck a deflector on the output of the power head
so the flow is directed downward into the tank and sat
back. The water flow breaks the bubbles into very tiny
ones (like the difuser should have) and the current is
strong enough that most of the bubbles don't reach the
surface. Nothing to clean, and it seems to be working
just fine.

I'm sorry you thought I was being critical or suggesting
that you stop using the difuser.

Frank

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jun-2006 07:05Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks Frank and Matty

Frank, no need to be sorry. As you can see, I have enough laughing smileys after the sentence where I was ranting about your response. It was a joke on my end (I think Matty got it ). And I knew Matty was just pulling my strings

Sorry to hear that your diffuser did not work as expected and has been expensive on top of it. Just like me, you nevertheless found a way that makes you happy, and that is what it is all about

And triple-thanks for moving my 20G log to this forum, it brings the family of my tanks closer together.

Now, the only one left outside this realm is my 29G log, but I am sure we can manage to get this one into the Planted Forum as well.

Thanks again,

Ingo


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mattyboombatty
 
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EditedEdited by mattyboombatty
(I think Matty got it )


Got it - I just wanted to congratulate you on your method of cleaning after giving a sarcastic remark.



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sweet. thanks. yeah, she is really nice.

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Glad I could help, Little Caesar

Tank wise, there is pretty much nothing to report, except maybe the fact that now, having stopped the Excel treatment for over 3 weeks, the BBA is certainly on its way back in, darn.

I know, I know, it has to do with my light, fishload, and whatnot, but I thought I just mention it.

Ingo


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LF,

Is the BBA limited to hardscape or is it growing on the plants as well?

My Scapes
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Tetratech,

The BBA is growing exclusively on the plants and mybe some parts of the wood. Mostly it occupies the egdes of my low growers, like some anubias, the java fern, and the isoetes.

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Weekly Tank Update - Week 40

The tank hasn't received much attention this week, partially because I was busy with work and partially because I am getting tired of the current setup. I am mostly spending my time with algae control and housing fast growers rather than having a scape that I could enjoy and shape.

Here is the tank after the last main trimming, 3 weeks ago:

Attached Image:

Tank 3 Weeks Ago



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I sure cannot complain about the speed with which my fast growers grow. But it seems like there is only one particular rythm to this tank - Fast growers up, trim, and so forth.

Here is the tank last weekend:

Attached Image:

Tank 1 Week Ago



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Here is the tank now as it was yesterday before the trim. The Star Grass is all the way up and this actually creates a problem. The lower parts are soooo shaded that they have no light what so ever and rott/melt away. I am sure that this cannot be good for the water quality and may directly relate to algae problems.

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Before Trimming this Weekend



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Then I trimmed away. I made one change though compared to earlier trimmings, I reduced the size of the Star Grass group and gave some of it to the Hygro group. This way I hope to reduce the amount of foul leaves over the growth period until the Star Grass is all tall again.

I may even remove the Star Grass all together or use it differently somewhere else in the tank.

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Tank Now



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On to some plant and fish detail shots.

Here is the Blyxa, or at least one of them. The plants haven't been floating up anymore, but they don't grow fast either. Instead, they are pretty much collecting quite a bit of gunk in them, which I can see when I hold the vacuum right over them. And, just like tetratech's they are all green now.

Attached Image:

Blyxa



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All still looks really nice in there though Ingo, but I guess I know what you mean, with my mainly wisteria tank being all about fast growers, trimming, but no great variety.

But for all that, I'd still be very proud to have a tank that looked like yours. You still have variety & little splashes or red & other colours here & there. Very nice.

Cheers
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Here is a close-up of my Isoetes Lacustris. What appears to be nice air bubbles (from the water change) being produced by the plant are actually bubbles that are attached to the BBA that is yet again covering it. This simple plant is the worst infested one in the whole tank.

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Isoetes and BBA



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THANKS ROBYN

On to the fish, for Robyn, here is a close-up of the female (non-agressive) female. Half the time she is hiding somewhere in the thickets, but it is not because she is chased by the male. I simply think she likes it in there and that there are some nice snacks available.

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Female Apisto



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He, on the other hand, is mostly at home in the front of the tank, patrolling the substrate to see if any new goodies are avaiable, stalking them, and then go in for the kill.

Both are totally non agressive fish, neither to each other nor to anybody else in the tank.

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Male Apisto



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Here is a nice shot (I think) of the male Pearl catching some air. The bubbles that you see around him are from the CO2 diffusion system that I have in place, a diffuser who's output is sucked into a small powerhead and redirected and even further cut up by it.

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Male Pearl



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The Rainbow group has found together for most of the time now, except for one of the 6 who prefers to be by himself for about half the day. I believe to identify him as a former leader who has lost his position to the leader of the last group that was added. He will get over it.

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Rainbows



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Welcome to the world of the High-Tech Tank

I think someone who is know as "The Grandmaster" "Uncle Ben" "Black and Tan Man" said it best --- IT'S A LIFESTYLE

Planted tanks take work and regular attention. You have a large tank fully planted from end to end, yes it will require time to keep it looking good and algae free. My tank is smaller and I've only added stems to the main area. Yes the wisteria is a stem, but it's the easiest plant to trim. I haven't uprooted them yet (although that might happen soon)



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Last but not least, the final shot for this week belongs to the Espei.

Some of you know why this fish gets the honor of the prime last spot in the picture series, and they sure deserve the special attention.

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Espei



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here is a close-up of the female (non-agressive) female
Ahh, now you're just rubbing it in

Cheers
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IT'S A LIFESTYLE
I don't mind the lifestyle of messing with the tank on a weekly base (well known fact that I cannot stop to mess with tanks, ), but I would rather enjoy messing with it to make it prettier rather than controlling algae (I know the issues at hand, just making a statement, we don't have to go through them again).
now you're just rubbing it in
Me , noooooo

Ingo


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Yes the wisteria is a stem, but it's the easiest plant to trim. I haven't uprooted them yet (although that might happen soon)
Good luck when you do that! They are a very well rooted plant when crawling. I think its a hygro thing. My giant is just as bad but it doesn't crawl.

LF,
Tank and fish shots are great as normal. I really like your Apistos but I might get my hands on something from africa that will blow your mind.

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Well I guess I will let the cat out of the bag.
http://www.malawicichlidhomepage.com/other/cyprichromis_paracyprichromis.html
5th picture down... I am throwing this plan out though. They will not like my low Ph. Sweet fish though...

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Wings,

Thanks for the compliments on the tank and such.

About the fish you may get:
Yes, it did blow my mind, but for a different reason. A Tanganyika fish in a planted tank? Wouldn't your parameters be way off from the requirements of that fish, like the high ph and O2 that it prefers? Have you looked at the food this fish needs? Overall, that sounds like trouble to me.

Ingo


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I am throwing this plan out though. They will not like my low Ph. Sweet fish though...


One of my coworkers was trying to get me to buy them. So I looked into it and realized that it wouldn't be a good idea for a number of reasons:

1. Ph is way too low
2. Too big of water changes
3. High CO2 count and probably too low of a O2 count
4. High Nitrate levels

Too bad....

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Weekly Tank Updates - Week 41

There is again not too much to report on this tank for this week, all is the same. The fast growers are growing, and so is the algae

I only perfromed a little pruning this weekend, mostly to remove heavily BBA infested leaves, but not too many. All fish seem to be doing fine, at least almost all of the purchased ones are accounted for.

Deep in my head I am already planning a re-design of this tank, although I know that you folks would probably not support that idea (we know what messes my over-hauls created).

Just a few shot for the week, here is the tank last weekend (for comparison reasons):

Attached Image:

Last Week



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And here it is last night. As you can see, the Hygro is growing quite a bit again, and so is the overhanging Ludwigia. The Star Grass is coming back too, I trimmed two stems of that were too tall in comparison to the rest of the group. When I "style" the 40G I will remove the Narrow Leaf Java Fern from this tank as it will serve as a main group in the other tank:

Attached Image:

This Weekend



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The whole right half of the tank doesn't look anything

It is a grouping of plants that are desired in the tank but with which I currently don't know what to do. This image is a sample of what I mean, all kinds of plants in random spots, no system, no visual appeal, they are just there. It has to change!

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Boring



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I will post a series of Oto shots in the 40G log, but I was able to capture one the Otos in this tank as well. Rarely do I see them all, the last time was probably a few weeks back. I was lucky enough to count 5 of the 6 today.

When Otos eat of the glass it always seems as if they are singing a song (from an opera) to the bystanders.

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Oto



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Here is a 3 shot journey into the Ludwigia shadowed gardens on the left side of the tank. This area is a favorite hang-out for all fish of the tank, just look at the last full shot and you will see about 90% of all fish in that area.

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Left Side I



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This stage of the Ludwigia growth is the nicest, but soon it will become too long and start to shade the Star Grass to its right. I love it when the roots hand down over the Anubias field and the fish take shelter in between.

Also, note at least 3 Anubia flowers

Attached Image:

Left Side II



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Last picture for now, an even closer look into the "cave". Center stage takes the female Apisto, also visible in the last two shots (and so was the male).

All the pearling is post water change related, and occurs mostly on the hair algae

Thanks for checking in,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Left Side III



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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
As always, love looking at your pics.

Cheers
TW
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LF,
You really have a Jungle again. Just take it easy when you start to redo things.

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Thanks for the input

Wings - it is not really a jungle yet, compared to the jungle it once was when I still had Rock Valley. The plants on the right half are actually far enough apart from each other so that light can reach all the way down to the substrate.
Just take it easy when you start to redo things
- Well, I will see what I can do, but I cannot promise anything. In any way, nothing will happen really soon.

Thanks to the two of you again,

Ingo


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LF,
Give yourself a break.

I mean your doing a great job scaping the other tanks, why not use this as a grow out tank and you could put all your new plants in it.

Eventually something will come to you and you'll probably scape this the way you want it. Maybe you have "Scaper's Block" It's going around I hear.

My Scapes
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Give yourself a break.
Hey, remember - IT'S A LIFESTYLE



Yeah, I will use this tank as a growout tank, that's why I purchased this 125G . Plus, using this tank as a temp storage for plants seems like a bad idea, as I would easily spread hair algae all over my tanks.

See tetratech, I don't think I have a "Scaper's Block" right now, probably the opposite is true. Having created 2 rather nice looking tanks in the last 2 weeks (20 and 29), I feel inspired. Unfortunaltely, I have messed this one up so badly than all but an over-haul would be unsuccessful. But as I said, I am not in a rush, I just try to come to terms with myself if an over-haul is a desired goal.

Thanks tetratech for the well-meaning suggestions, keep them coming ,

Ingo


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Geez just a suggestion .
I don't mean a forever growout tank, just for a while.
Sometimes taking a break from something you see "The forest from the trees" again.

Yes your "little" tanks look quite nice. Maybe we should call you Little_Scaper

My Scapes
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I hear you on the "forest for the trees thing. I believe I have noticed that I got too carried away with details and in that process didn't see that the tank as a whole made less and less sense (style wise, not in general).

Right now, I guess the tank is a growout tank, as this is all what the plants in there do, grow - and then come out - because of algae cover

BTW, does anyone know what the stars in my status mean?
**** Ultimate Fish Guru * - I for sure am clueless as to where they came from.

Ingo


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NowherMan6
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Personally, LF, I think this is the nicest your tank has looked. It's no longer stem plant central, there's some long-term viability there. Such a long tank is difficult to scape, and invariably you wind up with a few different tanks within it, it's hard to be cohesive. I've even seen it in some of Amano's work. I like it as it is, lush, colorful and clear. very well done, and great pics as always

Maybe we should call you Little_Scaper


I like it!


Back in the saddle!
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Oh NowherMan6,

That are very kind words you write there, I appreciate it .

Actually though, the tank is still Stem-Plant-Central, with I would assume about 80% covered with Wisteria, Star Grass, Hyrgo, Ludwigia, and Pearl Grass - all stems.

Little_Scaper - hm, not too bad, although I am LITTLE_FISH for my preference of small fish. So how would that translate into Little_Scaper? Small Plants? Or only a little part of the tank is actually scaped

Ingo


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I think they feel bad for you not having any quiz stars, so they give you some for having a billion posts.

I kinda like the haphazard scaping over on the right side. It's kind of more natural in some regards.



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Post InfoPosted 10-Jul-2006 00:49Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
You really have a Jungle again.
Noooo, I always think it looks nice. If I were a little fish, I'd like to live in such a tank. I think there is a place in this world for highly scaped tanks & as well as other tanks, that have been scaped such as this one, but trick us into thinking it is just a natural bunch of plants. You have several tanks, so you can create several looks - this is just be a different look.

A very nice look, I think.

I don't know why you're unhappy with it (except if algae is a problem, but you can't see that in the pics).

Cheers
TW
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I think they feel bad for you not having any quiz stars


What do you mean? I am sure you didn't even notice that you have yellow CO2 tubing, as you are obviously blind

Go count them

haphazard scaping over on the right side ... but trick us into thinking it is just a natural bunch of plants
That all would be good, if it had been created at least somewhat intentional. I stated from the beginning that this tank should not be a highlight in scape but also fish intensive, but I didn't mean no style either . But thanks for letting me know that the scape is not all that bad .

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 10-Jul-2006 02:17Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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EditedEdited by mattyboombatty
What do you mean? I am sure you didn't even notice that you have yellow CO2 tubing, as you are obviously blind


Oh man....that WAS bad. My observational skills are obviously lacking. I seriously looked over there when you commented on your title, and didn't see the stars.... . I even remember when you got all 10 stars. Hey, at least I got the number of posts right...

Sorry 'bout that LF....I think your stars were in stealth mode at the time

EDIT: multiple typos...



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Post InfoPosted 10-Jul-2006 03:53Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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You must have had your mind focussed on the new tank setup, I understand that completely.

No problem Matty, we are all friends here
But don't do it again or I will send some of my BBA your way .

Have fun,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 10-Jul-2006 11:06Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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Please no...not the dread BBA



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Post InfoPosted 10-Jul-2006 15:24Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
illustrae
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I really like the occasional sprig of red teleranthera amidst the grassy crypts (if that's what they are). I think the tank looks lovely.

Hoping that there must be a word for everything I mean...
Post InfoPosted 10-Jul-2006 19:56Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
FRANK
 
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EditedEdited by FRANK
Hi,
As far as the stars are concerned, they are out of
"balance."
Someone (not I) typed ***Ultimate Fish Guru***
and there are not enough spaces in that field so it is
lopsided. Drop a note to Adam or Lindy or Babel and see
if one of them can stop your listing to one side.

Frank

-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--
Post InfoPosted 11-Jul-2006 01:48Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks illustrae for the input, I appreciate it. I like the color of the Alternanthera as well, but its placement is wherever I had space left in the tank. I guess sometimes "Chance" is a better designer than I am

Thanks Frank for trying to explain the **** Ultimate Fish Guru *, but I am seeing the same in the page's source, and in my Profile when viewed directly as I see it and as anybody else can see it. I think this must have some secret meaning that I cannot identify.

Thanks to both,

Ingo




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Post InfoPosted 11-Jul-2006 02:59Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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EditedEdited by bensaf
The current scape is very flat and has little to no depth. The ingredients are all there but you mis read the recipe somewhere along the line.

Some general pointers.

Don’t be afraid of empty space or gaps. The voids have their own dynamism. An example of this would be the H.Augustifolia and the Stargrass. Both nice plants but they are almost identical color and at present are just blending into one another, effectively canceling each other out in term of visual impact. Just have a big enough empty space between the two would go a long away to solve this. Or by using a plant of a different color in between will achieve the same effect. The ludwigia for example would be ok between these 2.

Build a skeleton that you can then flesh out. But the bones and structure should still be visible. The wood and rocks are hidden at the moment so the structure is gone. Bring the rocks forward and use them as a pedestal that the wood can sit on. Be careful what is planted in front and around this structure so as it doesn’t become overgrown and obscured again. Anubias in the gaps between rocks and wood. Ferns to decorate the wood. Only use plants that will stay at a size that will remain manageable in front of the structure. Blyxa is ideal. It’s just used in dabs to highlight the rocks and the plant looks better with the dark backdrop of wood or rock.

Some plants are only effective when solitary. Grassy plants like the Sag, Cyperus, Isoetes are nice but if they are used against a background of green stems they simply disappear. Use them in areas where there is nothing else green around. Use as highlight to rock or wood, or simply have them against a black background. Use as fillers at the side or popping out behind dark crypts or peeping from behind rocks etc. The important thing is that they are visible for what they are – at the moment they are invisible.

Some plants look better when they are half hidden. A lot of plants look there best when they are poking out from behind something. Not all are stars. They don’t have to be out there on show. Their main function should simply be to show off other plants or create a backdrop for hardscape. Wisteria is a good example it can be mould around the lines of other plants or hardscape to show them off more effectively. A lot of Crypts especially bigger Wentdiis look good just poking out of somewhere.

A big showpiece plant works well in a tank your size and work around that like you would hardscape.

Grouping of stem plants is important. Different shapes, textures and colors, don’t place them randomly, think what would look good next to what so as they can highlight one another and thereby increase the individual appeal. Don’t be afraid to put one species of stem plant right in front of another, as long as they differ in color or texture and you keep the height of the front one low enough, they complement one another rather then obscure, of such things depth are made.

You’ve got all the necessary bits and pieces in places, they just need to be used to maximum effect.



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Post InfoPosted 11-Jul-2006 09:09Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Bensaf,

Thanks for the detailed list of suggestions. I am aware of almost all the things you said, but I am worried about a re-do at this point (more algae? ).

There is no way to make this tank look nice (not just nicer, but nice) without ripping it apart first. You cannot simply take parts of it and plant them more structured, there is a natural chain reaction that has to be considered (what you remove from one spot and plant in another will conclude in other plants having to be moved as well, not to mention the hardscape).

I am really not too frustrated with the tank, but given that all other tanks currently are looking better and better, this one is the black sheep in the tank family

Thanks again, I will keep your suggestions in mind during the next redo. I also will have to fit a mother Barteri somewhere in there, as I ordered the plants for the 40G (see log entry) and couldn't resist on this one

Ingo


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Ok,

Finally I made it home, and when checking on my tanks I saw that this one has a new flower (actuall 2). The Star Grass is doing me the honor this time. As it is not natural for this plant to have submersed flowers (at least from what I know), I have to assume that the buds started to form when the top was all the way up at the surface before the last trimming, a week and a half ago. I assume it kept on growing after the trim.

Sorry about the bad quality, but here it is:

Attached Image:

Star Grass Flowers



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LITTLE_FISH
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Well, and while I was having the camera out allready anyway, I decided to take a few more shots.

And here is yet another new Anubias flower, tell me if you have seen enough of them by now and I will stop posting them (or not ).

Attached Image:

Anubias Flower



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LITTLE_FISH
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And I thought that while I am bothering you with the 397th image of an Anubias Flower, why not add the 467th image of an Oto, just to complete the list

Here he is, munching away on some algae covered piece of wood. No food shortage there:

Attached Image:

Oto Eating



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And to round it out, another 3 shots of the Apistos, this time both in all shots.

Tonight they had a few close encounters, here is the first one of many:

Attached Image:

Apisto Pair I



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LITTLE_FISH
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Here is a near head-on collision between the two. I know that it is not meant as a thread by either or as the male has the black eye bar "hidden", unlike when he shows off towards other fish or me:

Attached Image:

Apisto Pair II



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Last but not least, another close encounter. I think that they truely begin to like each other, otherwise this would be too close for comfort.

I wonder what the male is saying to the female in this picture

Attached Image:

Apisto Pair III



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Post InfoPosted 12-Jul-2006 01:18Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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LF,
Very nice pictures as always. I really like the one of the Oto. It shows both your great photo skills and your super skills at growing algae. (please no threats of sending some my way as I have green spot that is driving me nuts!)

Sorry about opening up a large can of worms with the comment about your jungle. You seem to have a lot on your plate with work and 4 planted tanks. They are not like the "normal" tanks people have in terms of matinance. Thou with opening up that can I got some good ideas for my tank from Ben. I guess it was not all for the worse.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 12-Jul-2006 03:00Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Wow, LF congrats on the Stargrass flower. Will the flower open submersed. I believe they are a light shade of blue.


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Post InfoPosted 12-Jul-2006 03:06Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Don't what you are putting in your water to get so many plants to flower.

3 years, a ton of Anubias and not one flower


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Post InfoPosted 12-Jul-2006 03:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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Ben you have never had an Anubias flower? I have only had one but I am sure it will again sometime. Unless I happened to cut that chunk off the other day.



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[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 12-Jul-2006 14:20Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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LF, I'll trade you some pearls for some flowers. We are such men.

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Post InfoPosted 12-Jul-2006 14:28Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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That's a really nice set of pics. Especially those apistos, they are a great looking pair - they really look settled in and happy now. The flowers on the stargrass is really interesting, I've never had a stem plant flower. A couple of anubias, but never stems.



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Post InfoPosted 12-Jul-2006 16:09Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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I've had many anubias as well, not one flower. As a matter of fact, sometimes I'd get them with flowers and as soon as I'd put them in the tank, the flower looked at me, looked around the tank, then promptly died. Stupid stuck up flowers, think they're so great...

That female pisto is just gorgeous. At least you know your WQ is top notch, I've never seen a female apisto color up so much. Are you sure you're not using Photoshop? or maybe it's just those punchy Canon colors


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Post InfoPosted 12-Jul-2006 16:34Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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So while we are talking about flowers. Being men and call....

I have an Aponogeton crispus flower in my tank right now (yes I know they are not hard to flower). I really like their flowers. I think the wife will too! Might have to add a few more of these guys in the tank...

55G Planted tank thread
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[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 12-Jul-2006 19:44Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Wings,

I could dig out my old photos of the Apon flowers

Thanks all for the, at least indirect, compliments on my flowers, at least one thing I superseed Bensaf .

Tetratech - me and modifying pictures in Photoshop?



I prefer to show the real thing, for better or worse (just look at my lovely algae shots over the last 43 weeks).

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 12-Jul-2006 23:50Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Weekly Tank Update - Week 42

Not much at all has happened during this week to the tank, besides feeding and fertilizing. I was a little pre-occupied with the 40G, putting all these plants in that tank and what not.

Plant and algae growth in this tank seem normal, fish seem to be swimming around normal as well, so all is status quo. I will soon have to unload some Espei, either by selling them or by putting about 20 in the 40G.

Here are a few (only 4 this weekend) shots of the tank over the last 2 weeks.

This one shows the tank 2 weeks ago after the last major trimming:

Attached Image:

2 Weeks ago



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Post InfoPosted 16-Jul-2006 13:49Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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A week later, so last weekend, the Ludwigia on the left had reached its prime, spanning a bridge over the Anubias group all the way to the Star Grass. That, in turn, had grown a little, as well as the Hygro on the right.

Attached Image:

Last Week



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Post InfoPosted 16-Jul-2006 13:51Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Here is a shot from this weekend before some trimming took place. The Ludwigia became too big and started to shade the Star Grass and other plants.

Ignore the huge amount of floating Hygro on the right. These were the stems that I removed from the 40G during the mid-week replant. I was somehow envisioning that I can add them into this tank, but without a major change this could not be accomplished. In the end, I disposed of them.

Attached Image:

Before Trim, This Weekend



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Post InfoPosted 16-Jul-2006 13:55Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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And lastly, here is the tank after the trim, the way it looks now.

Mostly, you will notice that the Ludwigia bush is gone, albeit small stems are replanted in that area and will eventually come back into view.

The Hygro has reached a height that means for me that it will require trimming soon, most likely next weekend.

I also trimmed the Pearl Grass group on the right, as well as the few stems of Alternanthera in it, and I replanted one of the Green Wendtiis that was getting almost no light anymore and died down to 2 leaves from a group that once was maybe around 20 leaves.

That is it for now,

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Tank Now



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Post InfoPosted 16-Jul-2006 13:59Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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LF,
You have a very large long tank, certainly not the easiest to bring together. Although you added the wood I think you need more hardscape to show depth and defintion. Why not add some pretty big size rocks jutting out in the left-mid and right mid areas. This will give the plants more definition and separation from each other and at the same time you could probably remove some of the plants to reduce maintenance somewhat.

My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 16-Jul-2006 14:26Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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I hear you tetratech,

My vision (albeit we know how well that one translates into a real tank ) for this tank is by now so far off from the actual layout that it would be an almost complete overhaul.

To give you an idea:

I see the right back side planted tall, maybe with a larger dense group of Hygro Angustifolia. Around it is an assembly of Anubias, slowly declining in height. The driftwood branches are sticking out of this combination. This section, with maybe one more plant as an accent, is about a third of the tank. The rest of the tank would be planted much lower, with maybe rocks as mountains, but not too high.

Somewhere along that line is how I would like the tank to be.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 16-Jul-2006 14:42Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Ok,

The first step towards a more plant friendly environment has been taken as I was at the LFS and arranged the selling of about 35 Espei for this coming week. That should make the water column a little leaner, when it comes to waste.

Now all I have to do is find a day when I will find the time and patience to catch these speedsters, last time it took me about 1.5 hours to catch 28 of them.

I may use the small store credit to purchase a pair of Triple-Red Apisto cacatuoides for the 40G. Any thoughts on that?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 17-Jul-2006 00:57Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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LF,

Re: the Espei, why not buy one of those big wide nets used for catching larger fish? Just hold it in one spot and corral the little guys into it.

As for the apistos, very nice idea. For my next big tank I'm going to set up an apisto haven of sorts, so I've been doing a ton of research on them. Cacs are harem breeders, not naturally pair breeders like rams and certain other apistos like borelli. I'm sure they work just fine as pairs because that's how they're sold sometimes, but it may be neat to purchase say, 3-4 females and one male. You'll get to see more natural apisto behavior out of them, with the females defending their territory and their fry, and the male bouncing around and strutting his stuff. Anyway, that's what I'm going to do. See that? I'm spilling the beans on my big tank designs, giving away my ideas, all to help a friend out!

p.s. Finally saw your article, great job!


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Post InfoPosted 17-Jul-2006 20:14Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks NowherMan6,

For the info on the Apistos and the comment on the Article.

Yeah, these particular ones are sold as a pair, finding additional females would be harder.

Having a big net was a consideration, but I got a little worried that I may rip out half my plants in the process. I may refer to it anyway, in particular if it takes me .5 hours to catch even one of these little buggers.

Thanks again,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 17-Jul-2006 21:43Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
I may use the small store credit to purchase a pair of Triple-Red Apisto cacatuoides for the 40G. Any thoughts on that?
Well, you know I have a pair & they are my "married couple". They show no aggression to anyone else or each other, although when they had eggs, they worked as a team guarding them. I think they are pretty too, even my girl is pretty. I recommend them as nice, easy apistos - particularly when you compare them to my other apistos, who continue to give me low level worry.

I say a pair should work well.

Cheers
TW
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LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks Robyn,

That is what my research into these specific Apistos showed as well, they are the perfect entry Apisto, easy to breed, easy tank mates, but maybe a little on the shy side (that will have to be seen).

I don't even know if they are available right now, but I am not in a rush anyway. I still have to find the time to get the Espei out first, between work, a dinner date with my daughter, another one with my wife, and all the other things in life, this will be a challenge for this week.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 18-Jul-2006 10:01Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
maybe a little on the shy side
Don't know if mine are typical or not, but they're not shy. They come to the front of the tank whenever I approach, as they know I mean food. As I like looking at them A LOT, they are sometimes disappointed, as it's not always dinner time when I'm there peeking in - but, they always come

Cheers
TW
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Well,

I am having a problem

Last night we had a major storm coming through and the power went out. This morning, when the sun came out, I could see the extent of the damage. The whole part of the town I live in has loads of trees fallen over or broken off, 50% of the roads are blocked, in short - it looks like a war zone.

I am not expecting the power to come back on soon, our own power line has at least 5 trees on it, and that is only for the area of maybe 15 houses, I couldn't further investigate as I had to go to work (that's where I am right now).

So, to sum it up, I got no filtration on my tanks, no pumps, no nothing. I guess the tank get a black-out of a not-so-gentle kind

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 19-Jul-2006 13:15Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Sorry to hear the LF? I really hope your power comes on soon, but if it doesn't what is your plan?

My Scapes
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Thanks tetratech,

I have no plan. I have a single battery powered air pump at home that I could fire up and rotate through the tanks. This cannot start until I come home from work, whenever that is.

In any case, very frustrating

Ingo


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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Ooh no, sorry Ingo. I know how worried you must be about that. I remember earlier this year, we had a blackout, which luckily only lasted a couple of hours. It was caused by a simple fault that the electricity people could attend to quickly, but that does not sound at all like your situation. Even though it was not for long, I was very worried at the time. I hope your power is not too delayed. I'm glad too, that it seems no tree actually fell on your house, car or family, so that would have been even worse. I guess it's quite likely that if many trees are down, that may have happened to some families.

Good luck with it all. Fingers & toes are all crossed that your electricity people get it fixed quickly for you.

Cheers
TW
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Thanks Robyn,

The wife just called and the latest prediction is that, if we would be really lucky, we would have power again late tonight, so pretty much 24 hour after it went out. More likely though is that it may come back on sometime tomorrow, going then towards 48 hours. Darn

Yes, luckily nobody on our street seems to have gotten hurt directly, almost like a miracle most trees fell between houses and onto streets and yards. I am sure that some houses have been damaged to some degree, but none has been demolished.

I will try to get home early to hook up the air pump, but as you may know I am really busy at work as well.

Ingo


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EditedEdited by tetratech
Yes, luckily nobody on our street seems to have gotten hurt directly, almost like a miracle most trees fell between houses and onto streets and yards. I am sure that some houses have been damaged to some degree, but none has been demolished.

Glad to hear it. We caught some of the storm, but nothing major. Had some of my deck furniture tossed around and lot's of leaves in the pool. Is it me or does there some to be much more devasting storms lately. There's was just a tsunami in Jakata (Bensaf's Home) and over 500 people died.




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Post InfoPosted 19-Jul-2006 15:33Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I think the weather is crazy lately, what with your storms, the tsunami(s), our news telling us today that at least some parts of US are going through a major heat wave, Sydney went through a major heat wave earlier this year & about 84% of the state I live in (NSW) is in a drought situation. Our dam capacity is well down & we have had water restrictions for a couple of years (I feel guitly about my 50% water change, when I think about our farmers).

I hope you are really lucky & get power tonight, otherwise, is it cold showers at the LF residence tonight - or do you have gas hot water & cooking?

Cheers
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tetratech
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LF,
What ever happened with your Stargrass flowers?

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LOL,

Well - this question for sure caught me by surprise

I am wondering if my fish are dying right now and you ask about the flower.

Anyway - It withered away one day later, the flower stem hanging off the side. I assume I only had a flower stem in the first place because the whole plant top was on the surface and that was when it formed. After I trimmed and replanted, the whole thing was submersed and the flower for sure did not like that.

Ingo

STILL NO POWER


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tetratech
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I am wondering if my fish are dying right now and you ask about the flower.
Sorry for what appears as my insensitivy, but when you said you might have power tonite, it turned from major to minor problem (in my mind anyway). I know how frustating it is, cause I've lost power for only a few hours and was really annoyed. If it goes any longer I would do at least a 20% WC on all your tanks.



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Eek! I hope everybody makes it Ingo. I'm sure the tanks will bounce back quick after the power comes back on. At least you don't have a reef tank. If power went out at my place I'd be blowing bubbles with a straw in my reef tank if I had to.



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Post InfoPosted 19-Jul-2006 20:46Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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There's was just a tsunami in Jakata (Bensaf's Home) and over 500 people died.


Funny you should mention that, I was just about to make a post about it.

It's been a bit weird, two quakes in the space of a week. I'd pretty much gotten used to them. Strange but you can sense them just before they hit, sudden nausea in the pit of the stomach and dizziness then you realize the room is shaking

But last nights was the biggest I felt yet, also the closest to hit, lots of screaming in the apartment building, including my wife - she near bowled me over in her rush to wrap herself around my neck !

Funnily the first sign that the quake is going on is the tank water sloshing and spilling over the edge (creepily the fish all stop swimming ). Lost one neon in the desk tank, thought being in a small glass box under a big lump of driftwood was not the safest place to be, and like my wife decided to run for it, he jumped and ended up on the carpet. It was a choice of calming the wife or saving the fish The wife won......just

A least I know the hardscape is solid, not a single branch shifted place ! All's well that end's well

Anyway LF, I think things will be fine. This is where having a planted tank comes into it's own. You have a natural filter in place and an oxidisor. Shouldn't be a major problem.


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Post InfoPosted 20-Jul-2006 04:20Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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LF, what's the lighting situation. Hopefully your back in business by now.

Anyway LF, I think things will be fine. This is where having a planted tank comes into it's own. You have a natural filter in place and an oxidisor. Shouldn't be a major problem.

That is true. I accidently turned my filter off on two seperate occasions and all was fine the next day. Even if you go a few days I think you'll be fine LF. Especially in a large heavily planted tank what is the canister really doing besides flow. It's picking up some solid waste, etc, but if you don't have any huge fish you probably wouldn't even notice the difference if the cansister was replaced with a powerhead.

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but if you don't have any huge fish you probably wouldn't even notice the difference if the cansister was replaced with a powerhead.


This comes from the guy who says that LF might not have enough biofiltration to handle the amount of waste from the espei, making his algae problems. Besides, I'm not too sure what the plants are going to be doing while the lights are out(no photosynthesis = no oxygen). At least they are probably covered in beneficial bacteria. That will help. I still think everything will be fine, but not because of the plants in particular.



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Well,

Thursday morning, and no power in sight

Our whole side of the street looks just like it did 2 days ago, with all trees and branches all over the power lines etc.

In my backyard, behind the garage, a tree from the neighbors behind us, I would guess with a diameter of about 2 to 3 feet, is lying across the main power line, and so are many others all over the place in my town.

The current prediction is that, if we get lucky, the power will be on by 4PM today, but given that nothing has changed in 2 days I doubt that.

Anyway - I went home early yesterday and we rushed to Home Depot (a hardware chain) and I bought a generator. It took me over an hour to set up that sucker, but eventually I had it running (on gasoline) and managed to hook up all filters in my 4 tanks. I let it run for 4 hours before I had to turn it off, the wife started to complain about the funes (hey - what are some funes compared to my fishes lifes ). She prominsed me that she will turn it back on today at 9AM, but I have my doubts that she actually will do that (let's just say that the argument about funes or fish lifes didn't end on a nice note, but I gave in anyways).

That's where we are now,

Ingo


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So have you already gone 48hrs with no power - that's too bad. I'm sure your wife will turn generator on, if she promised too. Maybe she just wants the kids out of the house & at school, before the fumes start up - or do you still have little ones at home?

How do your fish seem. Are they still acting normal. Is it warm enough there at the moment that your heaters aren't really needed? I know in my summer, I didn't really need heaters at all. They never turned on, as the room was always warm enough.

Anyway, continuing to cross all fingers & toes.


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Were you running the generators indoors? I would be afraid that Carbon Monoxide would build up in the basement. Set it up out side or in a vented area and run an extension cord.

No sense killing your self to save the fish.

My family has a generator for hurricanes they run it on the back porch with extension cords coming in the back door.

Good luck with the power situation. We're crossing our fingers for you!

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Post InfoPosted 20-Jul-2006 13:51Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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I am with rick on the generator thing. They are ment for outdoors.

A while back when I was in my first year of high school we lost power for at least a week. Living in the sticks this ment that we did not have any water either because we had a well. If it wouldn't have been for the gas grill we would have starved. I swear my mom can make anything on that thing! As for the fish I was keeping at the time. I think they were fine. I kept them in the basement so they stayed dark thus keeping them dorment.

Best wishes LF. I know that its not fun to have no power.

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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Sounds like if you can run it from outside, you, the fish & your wife will be happy - the fumes will be outside, bothering no-one. But, I can't help thinking that if you could have done that, you already would have, and that maybe, for some reason in your situation, it's not possible?

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TW
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Hi,
If you haven't already, get a 100 ft extension cord, and
one power strip (like for computers, etc.) place the
generator outside and run the cord through a window.
Use old towels in a layer across the sill and close the
window down onto the cord. The towels will mold around the
cord and "seal" the window keeping out the bugs etc.
Hook up the filters and lights to the strip(s) and crank
the generator up. You just have to keep an eye on the
fuel once in a while.

Frank


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Post InfoPosted 20-Jul-2006 14:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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LF,
Glad you got your hands on a generator. I would keep doing daily water refreshing anyway to keep things fresh and oxygenated.

This comes from the guy who says that LF might not have enough biofiltration to handle the amount of waste from the espei, making his algae problems

O.K. how do I talk my way out of this one

What I meant was in a big tank isn't the primary "biological" and yes overall filteration the plants and substrate not the canister. Isn't that the case in salt too "live rock and live sand", but if there are big fish present you need mechanical to get that out of the water as well as the big food you feed those fish that goes uneaten. I do think if LF had a bigger filter, when I say bigger I mean bigger in terms of more water volume it would help, but the one canister I don't think is doing all that much in terms of biological when compared to what's inside the tank.

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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH


Of course it runs outdoors, you sillies

It just happen that you have to keep the door a notch open so the power cord can run into the house. Also, I have to have the generator in a position that is not favorable with regards to the winds, and although I point the exhaust outlet away from the house the wind occasionally blows it back towards it.

Kids are in day camp, so they will be far away from the fumes during the day. The temperature here was about 98F before the storm hit 2 days ago, the next day it was in the upper 80s. Last night, around 8PM, the temp inside the house was 84F (that is exactly 30C). The basement is a little cooler, but overall I for sure do not need the heaters in the tank. I unplugged all electrical equipment to the tanks, partially because I needed the extension cords to hook up to the main power cord from the generator, and partially to avoid anything starting up uncontrolled if the power should come back on while I am not at home.

Ingo

EDIT: Frank and tetratech - didn't see your entries until now. Yeah - I will have to work on moving the generator further away from the house, but there are 2 problems:
a) While the wife doesn't like the fumes, she also wouldn't like the idea of blowing them into the neighbor's window
b) a long extension cord uses up quite a bit of amps itself, energy that gets lost for the filters.


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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Of course it runs outdoors, you sillies
Well, in my defence, I did say that I couldn't help thinking that if you could have done that, you would have already.

Anyway, sounds like you're doing all you can do. I didn't think you'd need to worry about heaters. Our news yesterday talked about parts of the US being in a heat wave - although I don't know if that is the part where you are. But I do remember you commenting on matty (I think it was him) wearing thick tennis socks when it was so hot.

Cheers
TW
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OK,

So, first of all, I am sorry that I did not participate in my fellow hobbyists threads too much during the last few days, with the power outage and a tremendous work schedule I just did not find the time to do anything besides letting you know about my own events in this thread.

Power News: WE ARE BACK IN BUSINESS

My wife managed to get the generator started sometime during the day yesterday, this gave my fish another 3 to 4 hours of filter activity. Once she turned it off, it took another 4 hours and then the real power came back on.

By the time I got home (after another 12 hour work session from hell) I just had enough time to plug everything back in and to adjust all the timers. I managed to feed all fish, for the 3 smaller tanks while their lights were out already (past bedtime for these tanks) and for this one with about half an hour of lights on. I could account for most of the fishies, as much as this is possible given that I don't even know how many Espei should be there. I did not see one of the Rainbows and the female Apisto, I will check more intense tonight when I get home. The other tanks were harder to check for fish (lights out), but it seems all are there.

In this tank, the Star Grass seems to have suffered the most, while certain plants seem to have thrived. It appears to me as if a few of my crypts (not the Wendtiis) have grown quite a bit, and the Alternanthera as well.

Maybe tonight I find more time to check on the damage that may have been done to flora and fauna, I theoretically also should drop off 35 Espei at the LFS, but I don't know if I will find the time.

That is it for now, off to another crazy day at work,

Ingo


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LF,
Glad you are back with power. Must be a nice feeling! As for your fish I hope they are all ok and that you don't have a plant mess to clean up. In general I think fish and plants are tougher than we think they are. Best wishes!

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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Oh, that's good you have power. Don't worry too much about the apistos & rainbows yet. With all your plants to hide in & if lights were only on for 1/2 hour, then that wasn't much time to spot them all. My apistos (the ones that worry me - you know the ones I mean) I sometimes don't see the female for a couple of days at a time, but so far, she always turns up.

Good luck with everything.



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LF,
Hope all is well with the tanks.

In this tank, the Star Grass seems to have suffered the most, while certain plants seem to have thrived

I really have a love hate relationship with Star Grass. When it's good it's really good and tough to beat for constrast and it's probably one of the best plants if your want that cascading effect from back to mid, but it turns very quickly to a unattractive mess when conditions aren't to it's liking.

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Thank you all,

I am still trying to catch up with all the threads that I have not replied to, because of the power outage and the work load in the office. I hope the coming week will give me some time to do so, but for now I will just update my 4 logs and then I will be off again.

Weekly Tank Update - Week 43

This sure was an eventful week, having had the power outage and what not. I am too busy to write a lot, but here is one reason why the tanks did survive the 48 hours without a problem. The Generator was hummming for about 4 hours each day, enough to provide some agitation and oxygen enrichment in all 4 tanks:

Attached Image:

Generator



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Here is how the tank looked like on Saturday morning.

All seems to be fine, but a closer look at the tank reveals that the Star Grass has suffered. To my surprise, the Hygro angustifolia has suffered as well, and quite a few leaves fell off. The alternanthera and a few smaller crypts on the other hand seemed to have grown better than usual. All fish have been accounted for:

Attached Image:

Before Water Change



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Here is a closer look at the Star Grass. I don't know how visible it is, but all lower parts of the plants have withered away or at least suffered enough to better remove them. I think I got lucky when I reduced the size of this group, otherwise I would have a much bigger mess right now.

Attached Image:

Star Grass



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Here is the tank now after the water change, which included a cleaning of the filter. BTW, I did nothing to the filters during the blackout, if there were any "bad" bacteria in them then they do not seem to cause any problems in the tank now.

Attached Image:

Tank Now



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As you can see in the full shot, the Star Grass is not even visible anymore, that is how short the trimmings had to be made in order to only keep healthy stems. Here is a closer look at the middle of the tank, slightly angled. You can see the tips of the Star Grass and some Alternanthera that I trimmed from other parts of the tank and planted between the Anubias on the left and the Star Grass.

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Peek-A-Boo



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Here is another close-up, just for the fun of it. I like the color contrast that the Alternanthera creates in a green tank, albeit its particular positioning in this spot may not be the best.

Attached Image:

Just Some Color



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Last but not least, here is a shot of the top of the 40G. That tank created quite a Duck Weed carpet and I removed some of it and added it to this tank.

Some of you may remember that I once had Duck Weed and that it dissapeared on me. Well, my theory that the fish ate it seems to hold merit, they liked the new Duck Weed as well. I wonder when they will have it all munched up

Attached Image:

Duck Weed



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Glad all the fishies made it LF. That's good news. Your whole tank seems to have pulled though pretty well & still looks all very lush & what not.

48hrs without light & you can still taunt me with a very healthy looking splash of red.

Anyway, seems that generator was worth the purchase.

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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Thanks Robyn,

Yup - all fish that I can count have been accounted for. This excludes the Otos (too good of a hider, haven't seen all 6 in a few weeks now) and the Espei, as I don't know how many I have. Oh, I don't remember if I mentioned it already, but I have not had a chance to give some to the LFS yet, with the power outage and the work load. I will try to work it out this week.

Ingo

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LF,

Is 100 pages a record? I bet its got to be close. All I have to say is "You the Man!"

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Yep, I was just talking about Stargrass, very unforgiving plant. I like that Duckweed shot.

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Post InfoPosted 24-Jul-2006 04:20Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
slickrb
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Congrats on a 100 pages. Here's to a hundred more!

I just hope it doesn't break the board or anything

Rick
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Post InfoPosted 25-Jul-2006 02:18Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Here's to a hundred more!


Holy cow, can you imagine?

I re-read Ingo's TFH article the other day and there was one part where they mentioned the beautiful planted tank where his espei bred, and I couldn't help but think to myself... "Hmm, yes beautiful... so beautiful, in fact, that he tore it all up and did it again... then tore that one up and did it again..." So indeed, here's to another 100 pages! /:'


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Post InfoPosted 25-Jul-2006 02:23Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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Is 100 pages a record?


I think we passed the record....say 40-50 pages back.



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Post InfoPosted 25-Jul-2006 04:05Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks guys for the compliments on the 100 thingy.

Workwise, I am being buried and barely had time to check into FP in the last days, if that continues then I can be glad if I add another 10 pages within the next year .

Anway, NowherMan6 is right, if there is one thing you guys can rely on then it is the fact that I like change, at least when it comes to my tanks

About the tank in itself right now: I still have all Espei as last weeks power outage cancelled the plan to fish some out and bring them to the LFS. I will try to do it this week then, maybe Thursday or Friday.

Thanks again,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jul-2006 01:01Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Ok,

Things have changed, some of the Espei have been traded in at the LFS. As usual, it is quite a challenge to catch them in the planted tank, but with one larger net being held in one position and the other smaller one used to herd them in it took me only about 30 min to get around 30 of them (I think it was 29).

Here is a last shot of the larger school before I got started.

Attached Image:

Large School



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Post InfoPosted 28-Jul-2006 02:27Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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And here are the fish, ready to be brought to the LFS. If you want to, go ahead and count them as I come up with 30 or even 31 in the bucket.

That means, overall I already traded in about 60 Espei, all from the original 12 that I bought.

And - If you would like to know what I did with the store credit that I got, you will have to check in a few minutes into my 40G log

Attached Image:

Fish-Bucket



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Post InfoPosted 28-Jul-2006 02:29Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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So being you have taken 60 out of the tank. How many would you guess you have now? Do you still think they are breeding?

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19G Container Pond
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Post InfoPosted 28-Jul-2006 14:10Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Wings,

I would guess that I have between 30 and 40 left, maybe more. I will try to get a rough count during the next water change. I picked fish for the LFS that are not too small or too old (fully grown adults, most likely still my original 12), this way I should be able to have more of them in the future.

I still see one or the other rather young fish (maybe 1 to 2 months old), although I haven't seen any tiny fry in quite a while as they must be better at hiding these days - given that there are/were about 100 fish in the tank that all would not hesitate to eat fry.

Assuming that the cut in numbers is significant enough, and that the Espei are in fact still breeding, I should see a few babies in not too far of a future.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 28-Jul-2006 14:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Weekly Tank Update - Week 44

Similar to the 40G, this tank has seen a few changes within the last week, but nothing major. And similar to the 40G's weekly update for this week, I will first go and show a full tank shot before mentioning the details (and a few questions) in the detail shots.

Here is the tank last weekend:

Attached Image:

Last Weekend



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Post InfoPosted 30-Jul-2006 14:09Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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And here is the tank now this weekend, after trimming and water changes.

As you may notice, the Star Grass still has not reached a visible height behing the main wood group, I really had to trim it way back after the power outage.

More obvious is the change to the right side of the tank, in particular the Hygro group. Here is the full tank shot:

Attached Image:

Last Night



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Post InfoPosted 30-Jul-2006 14:12Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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This change was required as the Hygro group occupied way to much space in the tank and also reached a height that shaded everything else on that side of the tank. Remember that I planted them in such a large area to be able to reduce the size of the Star Grass group while still maintaining a large number of fast growers. Here is a shot of that hygro group before trimming:

Attached Image:

Hygro Jungle



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Post InfoPosted 30-Jul-2006 14:14Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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And here is a close-up of the same area after trimming. I have to confess that I did not take this shot to show the hygro, but rather the rainbows and a few of the Espei. It ever so happend that the hygro formed the backgroud for this come-together.

Attached Image:

Lower Hygro and Fish



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Post InfoPosted 30-Jul-2006 14:17Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Overall, I did not only remove and trim every hygro stem in the tank, I went a little further:

I went ahead and removed all remaining green Wendtii plants from the right side of the tank, they were located at mid level, were mostly invisible from the front of the tank, were heavily shaded by the hygro to the point where 2 of the original 5 plant plugs were compeltely wiped out.

These green Wendtiis have been replanted between the Anubias (to their right) and the brown Wendtii (to their left) in the area formerly know as Rock Valley. I dont know how they will handel the replant or the larger amount of light, but I pretty much had to do something.

This also concluded in the right area being all available for the hygro and I planted it there rather densly but overall in much less of an area than what it occupied beforehand.

Here is the Wendtii

Attached Image:

New Wendtii Spot



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Post InfoPosted 30-Jul-2006 14:22Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Ok, shift of topic for a while, on to fishies. I actually did not want to show any Otos, but I was happy to see most of them in the tank. Nevertheless, I only counted 5 out of 6, but that is more than I can account for most of the days.

So, here is an Oto

Attached Image:

Oto



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Post InfoPosted 30-Jul-2006 14:26Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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And here is a shot of two more Otos. If you look at the one in the background, doesn't he/she look somewhat like one of these leopard Otos or whatever they are called?

I like the way Otos "freeze" when approached, their way of defense.

Attached Image:

2 Otos



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Post InfoPosted 30-Jul-2006 14:29Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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The main fish of this week was the Espei. I managed to sell 30 of them to the LFS (trade in for Apistos, in case you didn't know). I avoided selling the fully grown original 12 and very young ones. I attempted to count how many are left in the tank during the water change, I guess it must be somewhere between 35 and 40, hard to tell.

This means that I have in the tank:

- 2 Pearls
- 2 Apistos
- 6 Rainbows
- 6 Otos
- 40 Espei

= 56 Fishies, that should be a managable number. Given tetratech's persistent statement that my lare number of fish is part of my algae problem, let's see if this makes a difference.

In honor, here is an Espei (female - middle aged):

Attached Image:

Espei



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Post InfoPosted 30-Jul-2006 14:34Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Here, almost simply for the fun of it, is a colorful shot of the area where my Nana and Barteri (and Congensis) are located. In the following two pictures I will ask a question with regards to the smaller crypts in the foreground, but they are hard to identify in this shot. This side of the tank looks very natural, with all the plants growing into each other.

Attached Image:

Field



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Post InfoPosted 30-Jul-2006 14:37Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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On to the last two pictures of this series, but have a question attached (actually, it is the same question).

I purchased a bunch of different Crypts over time and lost track of which one is which. Two of them started off looking almost the same, but one grew quite tall compared to the other and its leaves also look a little different.

I believe that one of them is a Lucens, while the other is a Lutea. Any idea which is which?

Here is the taller one, approximately 4 to 5 inches tall:

Attached Image:

Crypt I



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Post InfoPosted 30-Jul-2006 14:41Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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And here is the smaller one, the shot was taken from the top of the tank when the water had its lowest point during the water change. The plant is at max 2 inches tall, most leaves are beween 1 and 3 inches long and grow pretty much sideways rather than up.

That is it for now,

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Crypt II



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Post InfoPosted 30-Jul-2006 14:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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56 Fishies, that should be a managable number. Given tetratech's persistent statement that my lare number of fish is part of my algae problem, let's see if this makes a difference.
For how long, with those rabbits in there. Let's go back to basics:

Sing to the theme of "One Fish, Two Fish"

More fish, more poop
more poop, more waste
more fish, more food
more poop, more waste
*Chorus*


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Post InfoPosted 30-Jul-2006 15:41Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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EditedEdited by NowherMan6
This was probably discussed a while ago and I missed it, but LF, rather that cull the fish, why not just get an extra filter?

It's not that I disagree with the low-bioload being easier idea because that's pretty well set, but to what degree? I don't think you have a ton of fish in there for a 125 gallon tank. How is it that Amano is able to keep schools of 100+ fish of similar size as espei in similar sized or even smaller tanks without problems? And this is a long term deal as well, not just for a photo shoot. I think the algae outbreaks have more to do with stirring up the substrate and not enough filtration than just having too many fish.


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Post InfoPosted 30-Jul-2006 16:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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rather that cull the fish, why not just get an extra filter?
Culling? Who is culling? I only ever culled fish in my 29G, but never in this tank. If you call a trade culling then so be it, but otherwise

Ok - here are a few comments to this quote:

- The number of Espei in the tank was too large. If you have fish of one school spread out throughout the tank you rarely have a chance to see them parade as a school. Yes, they do hang out in formation, but real perusing did occur only after feeding, I guess they had some form of a workout program to stay in shape. With a smaller number of fish this school swim thing happens more often.

- My main reason not to get a second filter is the current. I find my tank to have more than enough current for my fish, actually they mostly like to hang out in the area below the spraybar current, I assume because it is the least strong there.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 30-Jul-2006 22:07Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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