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bensaf,

Thanks for the input. Yeah, maybe I should specialize in taking pictures from far away .

I haven't measured anything yet, but I will do within the next 30 min. The lights in the tank went on about 30 min ago and I already seem to observe (or maybe I have noticed it before) that the Rainbows are huddling together, without moving much around. The far side of the tank appears to actually get more bubbles then the side on which the diffuser sits. The spray bar current blows them all over to the other side where there is little current.

Makes me quite nervous, this diffuser thing. I would almost assume that I will have to reduce the bubble rate, which now is still almost a solid stream.

Thanks again,

Ingo

EDIT: Ah - and congrats on the 10 Gold Starts, Bensaf /:'

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

OK,

Just measured the tank parameters and I came up with results that seem a little off:

KH - maybe 4.5 dH - seems about right given that I added more Baking Soda than usual
ph - 7 - that is the odd one as 7 is my tab ph. Could it be that my water change from yesterday had raised the ph although the reactor and later the diffuser were humming all day? I will check again in a while just to make sure I got the right reading.

Here is a shot of the way right side of the tank, top area. All the white dots are CO2 bubbles:

Attached Image:

CO2 on the right

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,
I agree, I like the pocket of color you have on the left I personally would like to see the red plant on the right moved inward somewhat. don't make the corners any higher.

Whenever you can, trim! Doesn't trimming intiate even more growth (one step back, two step forward) that will get the plants sucking up more.

By the evening my entire water surface is a pretty much solid mass of tiny bubbles. It made me nervous at first but I see no effect on the fish. Remember co2 doesn't displace o2.


My Scapes

tetratech,

Thanks for the confirmation on the diffuser stuff, I am glad that I am not the only worried one when setting up the bubble machine. About moving the right hand Alternanthera more to the middle - maybe some day, but for now things are only being moved to add new plants for extra suckage of Nutrients .

I just measured the ph again, 4 hours later than the last time. It is now at about 6.8 with a slight tendency to less. Now the main lights in the tank will come on. Babies, let's grow

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

So, another 4 hours later than the last test, I did another two - one on each side of the tank. Both panned out with a ph of about 6.6 maybe a little less.

This should give me about 33ppm of CO2, that would be pretty much where I would like it to be. If I remember then I will test one more time around 9, just before lights out.

Ingo

EDIT: Oh, and I do not see any bubbles on the plants.

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,
It is really tricky getting the right setting with your CO2. When I first got my diffuser I had tons of bubbles too! Since then I have turned it down a bit because I was getting my ppm up to around 50 or so. Now I don't seem to have the bubble thing going on.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Thanks Wings,

Last night I checked my ph again and it seemed to have stabilized at around 6.6, meaning I still had a CO2 saturation of around 33ppm. This is more than I had before because, albeit I frequently had this ph, I upped the KH by about 1dH.

The thing that puzzles me about these observations is that I cannot explain why my ph was 7 in the morning. I had CO2 running the day before, except for the maybe 1.5 hours during maintenance. Given that 7 is my tab value, I would assume that my ph at lights out must have been lower than that. Now, having had 7 in the morning, wouldn't that mean that my plants haven't produced any CO2 all night long? Or did they and the surface agitation from the spray bar made it all evaporate? Very confusing

I also sat back last night and observed the fish for a while, just to make sure they are ok. Well, all seems fine to me, although they all stayed mostly in the lower parts of the tank. It is always nice to see the different characters of my fishies, the Pearls slowly parading, the Rainbows playing chase with each other and then regrouping with the Pearls for a while to rest, the Espei forming a school of about 15 to 20, going from left to right (or the other way), finding there more of their kind and breaking out of school mode, and the Otos - well they are eating .

I cannot count how many Espei are in there, but for sure still enough that the there is basically not one area of the tank where there are none. Maybe I should think about trading in another 20 or so.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Makes me quite nervous, this diffuser thing. I would almost assume that I will have to reduce the bubble rate, which now is still almost a solid stream.

Well doesn't everything worry you Ingo ?

Actually you ,ay have to use less gas I certainly found the diffusers so efficient I had to drop the bubble rate a little.
Measuring pH just before lights on is the worst time to test. Just after lights on at best.
Even at over 30ppm once the gas is switched off the Co2 in the tank will evaporate in a few hours going into equilibrium with the athmosphere. The plants don't produce that Co2 at night ! So testing pH to calculate Co2 content is worthless before lights on, yes the tank water would be at almost tap level.
If you are hitting 30ppm at lights off after a day of the plants using the Co2 then you know you are good.

Good to see the diffusers work on even such a large tank.

EDIT: Ah - and congrats on the 10 Gold Starts, Bensaf

Thanks . only took 2 years At least I won't have to do that darn quiz again

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

At least I won't have to do that darn quiz again

That's how I feel as well. Now let's see when tetratech reveals his "real" star count. I bet you not before he has 10 as well.

About the ph test. The first one yesterday in the morning was right after lights on (maybe 20 min into the lighting period).

Interesting, so you say the CO2 that is produced by plants would not read as a measurable ph influence? Can you explain that a little more?

And about the worrying: You know me so well . I tjust makes my day when I have something to worry about. And my tank as never failed me so far.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I tjust makes my day when I have something to worry about. And my tank as never failed me so far.

I think Ingo secretly sabotages his own tank, so he has something to worry about.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Yeah, I sabotage my tank (and my spelling ) on purpose, you found me out, Matty .

I wish you were right. The thought that some people may not take my concerns serious anymore (may I say cry wolf) has for sure crossed my mind.

But bear with me, I am really trying to have an algae and problem free tank, just like the rest of you.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hey Ingo

Your tank is looking great. I can see that I am not the only worry wort though

Cheers
TW

Interesting, so you say the CO2 that is produced by plants would not read as a measurable ph influence? Can you explain that a little more?

They just don't produce enough Co2 to make a noticable difference. Heck if they did we wouldn't need these fancy gas tanks, every aquarium with plants would have 30ppm of Co2 in the morning !

Co2 dissipates pretty quickly. Turn off your gas and see how quickly the pH goes back to tap value. Even at 30ppm it only takes a ciuple of hours to go back to 2ppm. That's why we have to keep it flowing during the lighting period.

On your non Co2 planted tanks - does the ph drop by 1 full point during the night? No, right ? Maybe by 0.1 or 0.2 this pretty much teels you how much co2 the plants produce at night. About 2-3ppm. Also shows you how pointless the "should I run my co2 at night" "should I run an airstone at night"discussions are !!!

Long story short, testing pH before gas/lights on is fruitless if your purpose is to check Co2. You need to wait a few hours for the gas to kick in, just before lights out is the ideal time to test.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Thanks Robyn for letting me know that I am not the only one of my kind here . I was even worried about you running this marathon. How did that go?

Thanks Bensaf for the info on the CO2 at night. I would assume that the ph swing at night in natural waters depends, besides the plant mass, on the water flow, meaning still waters should have a larger swing (down) than flowing water, right? This also made me realize that we, in out tanks, actually turn the natural ph swing upside-down. While in nature the ph should be higher during the day, it is the time when we lower it.

Different topic:

Last evening I went to the LFS and got lucky and purchased 6 small stems of Wisteria, plus one other plant that I would like you to help me on a positive ID. I currently just "threw" them in the tank, it was late, and will properly plant them tonight. I most likely will take out my Red Rubin Sword and put them in its place. That plant received a heavy trimming (during my masive make-over) because so many older leaves where full of threads. Also, it went through a quick bleach dip at the same time. Now, most leaves are really thin and algae infested yet again. Only the new growth is ok, and it takes up a lot of real estate that I need more now for fast growers.

Anyway, here is a shot of 4 parked Wisteria stems

Attached Image:

Parked Wister I

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And here are the other 2. I actually think that they don't look all that bad in this spot. But I know that soon they would grow so big that you cannot see the other plants behind it anymore (and shading would set in as well).

Attached Image:

Parked Wister II

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Last but not least, here is a shot of the plant that I mentioned earlier.

I bought two stems that were labeled "Narrow leaf Hygro". I believe the plant is Hygrophila augustifolia, is that correct? Either way, what do you know about it? I would assume it is a fast grower, it is a hygro. How do you replant/trim this plant? Do you know of any problems with it?

Thanks in advance,

Ingo

EDIT: Oh - and don't forget to admire the Espei

Attached Image:

Hygrophila augustifolia ???

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I bought two stems that were labeled "Narrow leaf Hygro". I believe the plant is Hygrophila augustifolia, is that correct? Either way, what do you know about it? I would assume it is a fast grower, it is a hygro. How do you replant/trim this plant? Do you know of any problems with it?

You should pay more attention to my pics

Yes it's Augustifolia. Been in every tank I've ever had. Probably my most favorite plant. Nothing but good things to say about it.

It's a very easy very fast grower and a stunningly beautiful plant. Give it lots of room !The leaves can get to almost a foot long.

One thing I really love about it - it branches so easily. It will produce 2 new branches at almost every single internode, so it becomes very very bushy quickly. Very thick almost woody stems.

It grows so fast, branches so easily that propogation is adoddle. You could literally have enough to fill the entire tank in a couple of months. You'll be throwing away buckets of the stuff.

Give it a location it deserves. It appreaciates a bit of flow so the leaves can sway outwards and catch the light. Not overyly important in terms of growth but brings out the best in looks. The leaves are a lovely deep green with a bright silver underside.

Best used to really fill out a corner section or as big solitary display. It's a magnificent plant and needs to be allowed to shine.

Just to remind you , mine is filling out the entire left corner in the pic and this was just after atrim ! Started out with one little stem. I think it was pretty much the first plant I ever bought years ago and there it is still going strong, will survive anything!!!

Great indicator for Nitrate or potassium. The lower leaves never drop off unless nitrate is low, also if potassium is low it will be the first to show holes in the old leaves.




Attached Image:

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

You should pay more attention to my pics

But in my defense, I have to say that you did not give yours a prominent spot, so it wasn't easy to detect. Also, it is not that easy to remember the name of the about 50 plant species that you collected just in that one tank .

Thanks Bensaf , I guess I made a good purchase then. I like the way ot looks as well and will put it in the spot where the Red Rubin is right now (as I don't want to uproot too many plants for this latest addition. Also in that area will be the new Wisteria stems. I hope it is not too crowded there. We will know more about it tonight - in any case, there is no way that I will make these additions another major replant event, they will have to fit somewhere convenient.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Ok you're forgiven.

It should work well in that spot. It contrasts pretty well with Wisteria as you can see above.

On the trimming - you can do it either way. It'll branch out no matter what you do.

At this stage I usually pull up and trim the bottom. It rpoduces really thick white roots at the bottom section of the stem above the gravel which can get messy. Never seen a plant produce so may roots so quickly. Also I'll usually have a few nice sized branches at the bottom (there will be branches all over - but obviously the lower ones will be the oldest and therefore the biggest/strongest)that I can use elsewhere.

Pearls like crazy too.

I think you'll like this one.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Thanks Bensaf

I didn't do the small replant last night, mostly for two reasons:

a) I want to do it when I have the chance to vacuum that area as well (avoid major mulm mess), so just before the next water change fits better
b) I was simply to lazy

So, Saturday it is

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Ok, 2 days have gone passed since I added the Hygrophila augustifolia to my tank (in temp spot) and I notice the first changes. On stem has lost the lowest leaves (1 section = 2 leaves) completely while the other has withering (disintegrating) leaves beginning at the tips (also only the lowest section).

Can this be already a sign of lack of Nitrates in my tank? I would more likely assume that this is damage still done from being in the LFS tank and the transport in general. What do you think?

Another thing that happened to me in the past, and that I feel has never been completely resolved, was the complete elimination of Duckweed in my tank. I still don't understand how that could have happened. I get the low nutrient part (as I may have reduced my P too much, but never to 0), but doesn't this plant thrive in almost all conditions while most other plants would have long died? Do you have any idea?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I doubt, even if your tank was low that you see anything so quickly. More then likely were suffering in the shop anyway. It should perk up just watch for new growth.

Duckweed I've never had and know very little about it, but yeah I heard it was practically indestructible.

This happened while you were away, correct ? Here's astrange theory, whoever was looking after the tank thought they were dropped leaves and scooped them out thinking they were doing you a favor.

I don't think nutrients would get so low as to kill the duckweed but not show problems on the other plants.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Nah Bensaf,

It did not happen while I was away. I used to frequently thin out the amount of Duckweed that I have in the tank, you know - the shading and such. After I thinned it out one time, and I removed quite a bit and left only a small group (hard to catch these buggers in such a large tank with the current and such), it never started to re-populate. It simplygot less and less and within about two to three weeks dwindled to nothing.

Sure did I have problems at the same time, this started shortly after my algae problems broke out (thread), which started in turn after I added the new driftwood and messed with the tank like a madman in the process.

I am beginning to wonder if certain levels of the water column contain different "mixtures" of stuff. Like could it be that my messing around (or even the driftwood) had poisoned the surface to a point that the plants would die?

Oh, on the other hand: I never saw the leaves getting yellow or something, they just dissapeared. Can it be that Espei, Rainbows, and Pearls eat this stuff and I had reduced the amount to so little that it couldn't reproduce faster than the fishies ate it? You know what, that sounds almost reasonable.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Maybe your oto's thought it was tasty one day so the stoped eating your algae and starting eating the duck weed...... Just messing around....

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Being a little bored, I decided to add a few pictures just for the fun of it.

Number one is of male Espei. I know you have seen pictures like this before, but they have a habit of zooming into focus just at the right time:

Attached Image:

Male Espei

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And if one picture of an Espei is not enough, how about a picture with, well you count them

Here is the majority of the Espei tribe in one shot:

Attached Image:

Espei School

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Good shot LF. Not only did you get him in focus, you got him without a grumpy expression on his face - which is a rarity that any rasbora owner will attest to.

EDIT: Just a guess here, I have bad computer eyes, but around 55 or so?

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Back in the saddle!

Now on to non-moving entities

This plant has proven very hardy, is only a little influenced by the algae, has grown in shade and light, doesn't invade the rest of the tank, it is just there.

Isoetes Lacustris

I can really recommend it

Attached Image:

Isoetes Lacustris

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

NowherMan6

Well, I haven't counted them yet, I was hoping that Wings will do this for me

But I have one more photo.

It shows the Star Grass group in a close-up. This plant grows so fast that I will have to replant ever other week. But it is very nice.

Attached Image:

Star Grass - Heteranthera zosterifolia

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I just wanted to say that this is one of the most beautiful tanks tanks I have ever seen. That school of rasboras is very impressive. Keep up the spectacular work on this tank.

jbe0404,

Wow, I am flattered, thank you so much.

But if you find this tank beautitiful then maybe you should look at tetratech's 72G and bensaf's tank pictures (spread out, one is even in my log on page 76 - I hope you didn't think that was my tank ).

I will still have to go a long way before I am happy with my tank, but keep on checking in and let me know what you think.

Thanks again,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I will count them for a doller a fish. Deal? Ok Great! 49 of them... thats $49! Thanks!

Great pictures too! Love the one of the school! Very nice!





55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Great pictures Ingo. I love that big school of Espei. Makes me want to run out straight away & buy another 10 of their cousins (rasboras) for my tank. Lucky it's Easter Sunday & the shops are shut, or that's what I'd be doing right now.

Dumb question, I know. But, how do I tell the difference between a male & a female rasbora. I've figured it out on my platys & guppys, but not my rasboras or my rams. I hope I have some of both & they breed.

Cheers
TW

Wings - Thanks, this means that you owe me only $201 now, as the fee for the entertainment in my monster log is $250

Robyn - Thanks for the compliments. To answer your gender questions (not dumb at all, BTW). Somewhere in tetratech's log are great pictures of a male and a female Bolivian Ram. I think the female get the pinkish belly when she is in breeding mode. Sexing adult (and late juvenile) Espei is rather easy as the males are rather red than orange. Otherwise, the general body shape of females is rounder than males, which are a little more streamlined.

On to the usual Sunday Topic:

Weekly Tank Update - Week 29

Not too much has happended this week, I purchased a few stems of Wisteria and 2 stems of Hygrophila augustifolia, mostly for the purpose to increase the plant mass with fast growers. The amount of algae had not declined.

Before I even started my water change this weekend I stood in front of my tank for at least 20 min because I couldn't figure out where to start. The goal was to incorporate these new plants without messing up the whole tank yet again. In addition, the really fast growing Star Grass needed a bottom trimming, in itself a major act because the whole group has to come out first.

Well, somehow I did it, and I don't think it was too bad. I removed the Red Rubin sword (sorry) as it was one of the algae magnets. Also, almost all Cyperus Helferis had to go, my 10 min bleach bath a few weeks back left them rather sick and they were re-invested in no time (or the leaves died and melted into the water column). That was a bummer as it took me a while to get this species.

On to some pictures. As I have a few details to show, full shots will only compare last week to this week. Here is the tank last weekend:

Attached Image:

Last Week

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And here is the tank now this weekend after the water change and all the other things.

The Star Grass group has been expanded to the right to take the space created by the removed Helferi. The Hygrophila augustifolia is in the spot previously occupied by the Red Rubin (and one stem to the right of it. The Wisteria stems have been spread out in the remaining gaps, I know that this is maybe not the prettiest solution, but I hope it will be efficient.

Attached Image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Now we go on to some detail pictures. The first segment is committed to fish, the second to plants.

Here is a close-up of a male Rainbow. I know the quality is not the best, but they showed their nice colors more than usual. I guess this water change must have been special.

Attached Image:

Male Dwarf Rainbow

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The next two pictures demonstrate how peaceful my tank is. It is not uncommon for the various species to hang out together. This is a good thing as there wouldn't be too much space for a species to be on their own as the Espei are everywhere .

Here is the Rainbow joining the Espei:

Attached Image:

Rainbow and Espei

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The same counts for the Pearls as well. Although they prefer the Rainbows over the Espei as tank buddies.

Here is the male Pearl showing the rest of the group who is the boss in the tank. It will be interesting to see how these dynamics change when the Apistos are introduced.

Attached Image:

The Boss

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

On to the plants. Actually, the first picture is about algae. I was finally able to get a good shot of the BBA on the driftwood. This photo sums up all my problems. The center gives you a nice few of the thread algae and the rest of the branches are covered in small bushels of BBA. Interestingly, it seems that in particular the regions of the driftwood that are exposed during the water change are covered by it. It may be a coincidence though, but I had 2 or 3 small bushels of them on the tip of my rock in "Rock Valley" which also was exposed during water changes.

Not wanting togo through another week long Excel round with the tank, I dripped some Excel on the branches during low tide (water change). I doubt that it will help, but it was worth a try.

Attached Image:

My Friends - The Algae

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Here is a picture of the left side of the tank. A few of the Ludwigia stems needed some trimming as well. I replanted the tops where their was an opening.

Now I have about 10 plant species in this section, probably too many but I am not willing to concern myself with too many style issues as the priorities have shifted from style to algae war.

Attached Image:

Left side

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is a close-up of the new right side. Yeah, I know that it looks a little like a junge again, but we need the nutrient suckers. Also, the Alternanthera in the back corner will grow taller again and become more visible. I am very courious how the Hygrophila augustifolia will develop in this spot, maybe I will have to move it further into the back at some point.

Attached Image:

Right Side

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In case I haven't mentioned it before, I find the Amano Pearl Grass to be very versatile. It is one of the two plants that do really well in my tank (the other being Star Grass). You can let it grow tall, trim it shorter, replant the tops, remove the whole "bush" and trim the bottoms off.

I use the pant mostly as a filler, small pockets here and there. But in the left and right side I use them as larger groups. I would assume that they serve as fry hideouts as well.

Attached Image:

Amano Pearl Grass

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is the last shot for now, the new middle section.

As you can see, the Star Grass group has been expanded to the right, behind the Wendtii and various Anubias types.

The other change to the Star Grass group is that I didn't make it as deep as it used to be. The parts between the branches have been filled with some Wisteria.

Never mind the current height differences within the Star Grass group as I had to use the plants that where available to me. I would assume that in no later than 2 weeks it all is going to be grown in.

Thanks for looking,

Ingo

Attached Image:

The Star Grass - Middle Tank Group

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Happy Easter....if you in fact celebrate it. If not, good day to ya.

Interestingly, it seems that in particular the regions of the driftwood that are exposed during the water change are covered by it. It may be a coincidence though,

Yep coicidence that the peices of driftwood closest to the light are also exposed to the air during a water change...

I found that in my tank any surfaces that were not covered with plants got bba(along with some slow growing plants). My heater, the end of the driftwood, the filter intake and output all got it. The filter intake got it the worst, and just so happened to be exposed during water changes. That means nothing except for the fact that it was closest to the light.

I bet you haven't turned the light cycle down a bit yet. I found this really worked for me in conjunction with making sure that nutrients are really there in the amounts you want them to be. In my case I used reliable test kits to give me a good idea, though people on the light side seem not to trust them. I have since turned the lights back up without sign of algae. I bet if I turned it all the way back up all at once I would have had trouble though. I think that's part of where my problems originated, from when I changed lights. It never is just one easy thing is it?

Oh, and when was the last time you changed the bulbs on your fixture? I ask this cause we all know on the darkside that compact flourescent bulbs last about 6-8 months of solid use before they shift spectrum(light usable by algae increases, light usable by plants decreases). The bulbs you keep on the majority of the day will need to be switched more frequently than the "noon time high light" bulbs. I dunno if I already brought this up though. I might have. Sorry if I did, but this threads too big to go back and check.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Matty,

Thanks for your thoughts on the relationship between BBA and air-exposed areas in the tank.

And yes, you are right, I haven't changed my light cycle a bit. The only reason to shorten the cycle would be if my algae profits from the time available when the plants are already tired of uptake. This though should not change over time, meaning that if this is how it works once then this is how it should work again the next time around (aka when you expand the period after shortening it first), except if other conditions in the tank have changed as well. As you may know, right now I have the lights on for 11h and in the middle with double light for 3h.

Now, here is a topic where I am way not with you. PCs and 6-8 months until they shift the color range? I seriously doubt that. That was not what my research showed when I investigated lights for the planted tank way back last August. Regular flourescent - yeah, that I have heard, but PCs seem to stay rather stable until they burn out which is not earlier than one year. Can this be different on the dark side because you guys use such high K ranges (20,000 - right? ) or actinic light?

Anyway, thanks for the input Matty, it is as always very appreciated

And Happy Easter to you too

Attached Image:

Happy Easter to All FPlers

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

Isn't it true that your other tank has no algae. Why not break it down. I mean the differences between that tank and your 125 and see if you could hit on something.



My Scapes

the relationship between BBA and air-exposed areas in the tank.

It's because they are the parts closest to the light, simple as that.

Difference between this and other tank? Well Co2 is going to be the biggest difference. What does Co2 do to a tank ?
Drives up nutrient demand explosively. So one tank with low nutrient demand has no algae, one tank with high nutrient demand has algae.

What does that tell you ?

The fact that LF was adding far less Equilibrium then he should have been for a long time is worrying. With such a low GH there would be problems. Little to no Mg and Calcium. These 2 would directly involve growth. Would certainly explain the stunting on the Reineckii but I'm surprised there wasn't more evidence of stunting on others. Depends on the plant species. Some seem to care squat if the Ca and Mg is low and keep on going, others, like the Reineckii stunt and produce ugly little curled leaves that look like they were burned, swaords and grasy plants just tend to stop growing or slow down dramatically. Don't know if any of these syptoms are familiar to LF ?

Anyway with good nutrients going in it should just be a waiting game - trim off the existing algae as new replacement growth comes in.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Yeah, you can get away with 12 months, but PC bulbs definitely do not hold their spectrum until they burn out(which used for 12ish hrs/day would/should be near 2 years). Sometimes bulbs will only hold their spectrum 3 months, sometimes 10. The average seems to be around 6-8, after which time they will lose/have lost about 40% of their efficacy. I've never been able to read information on spectrum and intensity given by bulb manufacturers (remember, the people who make them, not sell them), but instead must rely on heresay. So who knows what you hear is right. The sellers of the bulbs, coralife and even retailers, give bulb life(how long 50% of tested bulbs lasted, about 2 years), and initial spectrum output and intensity, not efficacy over that period, not even the actual readings after "burn in" which is about 100hrs of use.

From what research I've done on NO, VHO, PC, T-5 HO, and MH, it seems to me that T-5 HO bulbs are the only bulbs that continue to give a high percentage of light at a full year. None of these bulbs can claim however that they will give the same, or similar output for the majority of the bulb life.

Anyways, you can't assume that bulbs will last any amount of time, and should just be something to consider, because after 6-8 months of use it's increasingly likely that your bulbs are going downhill. I'm not saying that if your plants are doing great to go out and buy a new bulb every six months, but just to give thought. I'll keep mine running as long as possible. I'm a poor college kid . This isn't the most important thing to think about, and definitely not as important in a plant tank as a reef tank which need, generally speaking, more light than we give them. It was just something that crossed my mind.

Oh and you are right, actinic bulbs don't last as long as others, but since they are more for veiwing pleasure than photosynthesis, they are much less important to replace. 6500K and say 10000K(which is what I use) last the same amount of time. I'm not sure about the 20000K, these are even harder than the more common bulbs to find info on.

The only reason to shorten the cycle would be if my algae profits from the time available when the plants are already tired of uptake.

There are other reasons, for me anyways. Light is more connected to all other nutrients than any other, making it by far the most important. Having a high light tank such as yourself, means everything else has to be just right, whereas having a little less light will slow things down a bit and give you more room for error. You might find that your plants will even be as healthy/colorful, and things will be easier on you. I remember Tom Barr saying it, and I totally agree. In his experiments he'd crank the light up to see algae faster, and more ounced.

Eh, just something to think about, I'd like to know why you are so stubborn with the light and ready to change everything else. I'm not sure what everyone else thinks about this though. I'd like to know. Don't just go on what I say. It might have been total luck in my case that everything I did helped out instead of causing a huge crash.

Anyway with good nutrients going in it should just be a waiting game - trim off the existing algae as new replacement growth comes in.

I agree with this too.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Wings - Thanks, this means that you owe me only $201 now, as the fee for the entertainment in my monster log is $250

LF,
I stayed up all night reading your log just looking for the way that to give you payment. I couldn't find one so I guess you are out of luck.

Isn't it true that your other tank has no algae. Why not break it down. I mean the differences between that tank and your 125 and see if you could hit on something.

125 = high tech
20 + 29 = low tech? But maybe that is something to look into.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Reason I brought up the two tanks, so you might go back to basics and break it down, variable by varible. Something is not in balance, thus the algae. Too much light, not enough mass (discussed too much already), too much waste in the water column, it's not the macro ferts. I'm dosing macros on my 12gallon just like my big tank and I see no algae even with 2.2wpg and no co2 (using excel daily - the only way to use it in my opinion)

Look at bensaf's tank, you would probably have to triple your current plant mass to equal his, every layer and level is full with plants.

Your algae issues are still in the light/waste/mass relationship in your tank. Your dosing EI, your plants are growing, yes some species are stunting, but I don't think these stunted plants are a big part of the mass in your tank.

I can't imagine your "old" lights are causing algae, I understand where Matty is going with the spectrum thing, but I agree that cf bulbs are much more stable.

My Scapes

I ve not been here a while, sort been popping in having a look and then running away in shame! - As ever Little_Fish great tank!

I found this and thought of the gentlemen that frequent this thread and their long suffering other halves!!

http://www.ilfordaquarists.co.uk/articles8.htm

GFG



_______________________________________
Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey S. Firestone

Your algae issues are still in the light/waste/mass relationship in your tank.

Tetra has been banging away at this for a while, and not really getting the attention it should.
I just read something by Tom Barr that addresses that very issue.
Basicially it's to to with the input of organics into a system. Apparently there needs to be a balance between the the organics going in (ie fish poo, mulm) and the bacterias ability to consume it.Loading is the key rather then the amount of organics itself. If the organics are loaded faster then the bacteria can consume it then you will have algae. It's not possible to have enough plant mass to make the difference. Example a 50 gal with say 8 discus getting fed properly is going to have algae, no matter how many plants or how sound the fert routine !!!! Same tank with 2 discus will have no problems.

So you can have a high level of orgnics with no problems if the bacteria can consume it quickly, if the bacteria can't - even a small amount of organics will cause problems. Loading.

Now Espei's aren't Discus by any means but then again are we still talking 100+ rather then 8 ?

I think tetra has been on to something here.

Certainly I used to be a devil for overstocking, got over that and prefer to be understocked now (looks better), and there do seem to be less issues with a lower fish stock.

goldfishgeek, I enjoyed that article

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Sorry Guys (and Gals) that I have not added an entry in a few days

I thought the best thing I can do right now is to let you add all your ideas of what may be causing my algae issues without interruption

While all your advice is noble and appreciated, combined it contradicts one rule that I believe I am beginning to understand (and follow): "Change one thing at a time, give it time to show its effect, if it doesn't help then move on to the next option".

I totally agree with the fact that light duration and fish load can have something to do with it, heck - they do have something to do with it. But right now I am increasing the plant mass and as painful as it is even for me, I am willing to give the plants time to grow and to monitor any changes, if they ever happen .

The "mental" issue I have with regards to light is that I somehow believe that reducing duration, or even cutting out the midday light, will conclude in a tank that I can have without CO2 and what not. So why would I want to go that route?

The "mental" issue I have with the fish load is - I like fish too . Although I can imagine reducing the Espei group (now maybe around 70) by another 20 to 30, you guys have no idea how hard it is to catch these buggers in that tank. While I had 100 it took me 1.5 hours to get 28, and an attempt to catch an almost adult one failed every single time - too fast and too smart. I have thoughts of somehow building a contraption with a real fishing net and what not.

In summary, I guess I have lots of "mental" issues

GFG - Good to see you back, you have to hang around some more. How is it going with you? I also loved the article, I am not sure though if I want to show it to my wife as it may frighten her of the things to come

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Bensaf,
Thanks for the acknowledgement. I had not seen the Tom Barr piece, but I knew I was on to something.

It's not possible to have enough plant mass to make the difference.

Do you mean, possibility depending on the organic input?

To me and let's be honest. "Planted tanks and fish lovers don't mix" What I mean is someone like LF (great guy by the way) is fairly new to the hobby and loves his fish, also loves his plants, but that's a big part of the issue. I would say if LF has 100 espei in the tank, plus rainbows, plus pearls. Each rainbow is probably like 10 espei same for the pearls, so we ar talking 150 fish or so. That's a lot of s***! Oh I forgot the otos they s*** too!
You got so much s*** floating around. Now, look up it's 386 watts, break out the SPF 80. See what I mean the two don't mix. I always go back to nature. Think of how vast the oceans and lakes are. Do you see 150 fish every 5 feet. It's an unbalanced closed system. Yes I know you do a 50% wc every week, but believe it or not, it's not enough based on your system. If you add another filter, wet/dry or increase water change to twice/weekly it would probably make a difference.

Look at saltwater tanks that require protein skimming, sumps in a desperate attempt to balance out the organic load, etc.

My Scapes

Look at saltwater tanks ...

Friends of the Planted Tanks - get your vaccinations, have your tubes tied, get a vasectomy - anything that can be done to stop this Dark Side stuff from invading the peaceful planted community

Well, it is only around 70 Espei, but I get the point tetratech

Are you basically implying that changing light duration, supercharging ferts, upping CO2, increasing plant mass, and what not will all not help as I simply have too many fish? What about Amano's 500 Cardinals in a 29G with minmal plant mass - all just show and for one day only?

It certainly would disillusion me that if after all this back and forth about what may not be right in my tank, and all these replants, the conclusion would be that I cannot have this fish load and a high tech planted tank

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Friends of the Planted Tanks - get your vaccinations, have your tubes tied, get a vasectomy - anything that can be done to stop this Dark Side stuff from invading the peaceful planted community

Look these are gut feelings I have. I haven't conducted scientific experiments but I do feel strongly about the relationship between waste/biofilter/light. Those other things (stablity, plant mass, not uprooting, EI) all have to be there).

I believe if you are going to continue to use high light then the water has to be cleaner. So less fish or more water changes / maintenance. Doesn't it seem kinda romote now that it's too much no3 or p04 that is causing problems.

I've said this before 3.1 wpg on your tank is like 6/7 watts on a 29g. Why don't you try semi-weekly water changes or 70% wc once a week, plus keep adding plant mass.

BTW: More fish the more you probably feed. You don't need to feed your fish everyday. I routinely don't feed once sometimes twice a week.


My Scapes

You don't need to feed your fish everyday

Almost by chance, I started this earlier this week. I don't think it will make a difference yet, but we will see. Also, based on an advice you gave me earlier, I decided to reduce the amount of food per feeding and I am doing so since 2 weeks .

Oh, BTW - tonight I will be part of that Planted Tank round table discussion at my LFS. It will be interesting to see what these folks have to say in general. I may encounter a big resistance when I mention things like EI, 30++ppm of CO2, 20ppm N, and what not

Thanks tetratech,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I may encounter a big resistance when I mention things like EI, 30++ppm of CO2, 20ppm N, and what not

Yea, especially when there's some algae in your tank. It's a lot easier if the tank is spotless. But hey, they'll come around...I did....sorta.

I'm not going to press the light issue anymore, but I think that you can do fine with that many fish. It's a big tank with adequate filtration. Of course removing a few fish and increasing filtration couldn't hurt.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Yeah Matty,

I guess you are right, one cannot make a strong stand when there are issues . But I will use Bensaf and tetratech as perfect examples how EI can be used with success .

So you find my filtration just adequate? I haven't thought about that as I see a rather strong current, on top from left to right and on the bottom the other way. I figured that this (and 6 liters of filter media) should be more than adequate.

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I will quote a line from my one of my favorite movies:
"The time for half measures and talk is over"

EI - Yes it works, your plants are growing. Remember it's estimative and for the most part your plants are growing fine. Something is out of wack and it's not the fert dosing. Yes, I'm sure the uprooting is a problem with getting too much waste in the column, but do you want a tank that you have to be so afraid to touch. You must bring the tank into a more centered place. Where you have some degree of wiggle room. More plants, less fish, more biofilter (if possible), more water changes/gravel wash and possibilly less light. Pick and choose. You might not be able to sustain the tank you have without doing one or more of the above. Don't take my word for it, look at the tank. Sometimes you have to pick and choose. Remember "You can't be all things to all fish and plants"




My Scapes

Well let's assume for a minute we're onto something with the organic loading vs. bacteria ability to break it down.
Logically we have 2 options - either reduce the organics going in OR increase the amount of bacteria to enable a heavier loading.

If we rule out reducing the fish load for the moment that just leaves the bacteria. How to handle ? Well what exactly is in that 9 litres of filter media - are we talking flosses/sponges or bio balls, efisubstrat etc ?
Maybe by increasing the quantity of biological filtration over mechanical filtration would help ?

One thing I've noticed on the big planted tanks here - they all have huge amounts of bio filtration !!! Most all the big tanks I've seen here have bulit in compartments, usually built into the rear left corner, the filter outlet is fed into this compartment which is full of nothing but bio balls and this is in addition to whatever is in the filter itself.

All these tanks were very clean and algae free - I just never made the connection to the huge amount of bio balls before.

I also remember talking to one local shop owner who had some amazing planted show tanks, lots of slow growers Ferns, Anubias , Bolbitis - perfect health and spotless. I was particularly impressed by his narrow leaf fern - the cleanest,freshest most brightest green I'd ever seen. I asked him what he did to keep it that good looking. His reply - "clean water" !!!!! Not nutrients or light (he had a good bit of light BTW) just "clean water".

Food for thought.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Bensaf,
I couldn't agree more and I don't think we are just blowing smoke toward LF's direction.

If he had 3 cardinals swimming around I don't think we are having this conversation.

What does algae feed off of, waste and light, right. LF has plenty of both and with his light levels that water better be clean.

Get your sabre out, because I'm going to bring up the darkside. Did you ever see the bioballs in some of those tanks. There is a massive amount of surface area to colonize bacteria in those sumps, becuase the water has to be really clean. Dirty water and high light is the breeding ground for algae.

It's interesting I tested my water tonite for the hell of it and from what I could tell I have 10ppm no3, 5ppm po4. That makes sense to me because I've been easing up on my no3 and increasing po4 to get the red in. The reason I mention it is that I've had these numbers as high as 20 to 25no3 and 1ppm po4 and even with these changes I'm still not getting any algae. It really is an estimative index as long as your tank is balanced somewhat between fish load, plants, light. Another thing too that shouldn't be overlooked and I did mention it before is that with a heavy fish load it get's even worse because people are feeding more to make sure they all get some. LF said he just started to ease up on feeding so maybe that will help as well. I would love to be a "fly on the wall" at his planted tank meeting.

My Scapes

Thanks guys for the input

Just to clear that up, I have 4 liters of ehfisubstrat in my filter and 1 liter of ehfimech.

Overall, I think our discussion regarding my algae issue is heading towards Doomsday . It isn't all that bad, guys. Yes, it is annoying and in particular with the occurence of the BBA not very sightly, but I have seen tanks in worse shape.

You are right, I may have too many fishies, at least when looking at recommendations that state that heavy fish loads are dangerous for planted tanks (of this kind) as they narrow the marign for error even more. But, I think that me messing big time with the tank twice in just a few weeks, plus running out of CO2 during vacation may have just been enough to get outside of this margin and the algae is the result. Maybe, just maybe, creating some stability in the tank will enable to get me back within this margin.

For what it is worth, the green thread algae patch that is pictured on the branch (surrounded by BBA) has almost completely dissapeard. I saw it decline over the last 4 days.

I think the one thing I would like to work on as soon as I can is to find a solution on how to avoid that so much CO2 is bypassing the spray bar. Even if that may have no impact on the algae, right now I feel like I am wasting CO2 and a more efficient means of keeping it in the water can help extend my bottle life.

Anyway: The round table discussion last night was fine, there were about 10-12 people on all levels, some of which just started in the planted tank hobby and others that are doing it for a long time.

You know how it is when one talks about plants and stuff, there is barely any time to cover a particular topic in depth. So we pretty much went over loads of detailed topics, like CO2, Nutrients, Plants, Tanks, Substrate, and what not. There wasn't much new that I learned there, as I said we really didn't have the time to go into details. There seemed to have been a rather strong resistance against Tom Barr, but all add CO2, have high nutrient values, and do large water changes - that for me is EI. Maybe some day I can chat with them some more and find out where they may differ from his method.

At least two of the experts are also members of the North New Jersey Aquarium Society, nice folks with humor and insight, and I am consideing going to one of their meetings. I have been thinking about this before, but knowing people that are members makes it easier than showing up and knowing nobody.

Well, this was a long post. I hope I didn't bore you to death,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hi,
"Wasting CO2" can be a problem with using diffusers. As
we all know, with CO2, the longer the gas is in contact
with the water, the more is absorbed into the water.
By using the smallest possible bubble and keeping it
circulating in the water not reaching the surface is the
only way to do that. They are, after all, just bubbles.

So we use the smallest possible bubble, and in some cases
even create currents in the tank just to keep the bubbles
waterborne. Still they reach the surface.

Reactors, on the other hand don't allow that to happen.
The external ones, with a pump, are the best in that you
don't have to look at them when you look into the tank.
The inside ones with the motor and sponge are very
efficient as well. With a reactor, if your gas bubbles
get out of the reactor, you are injecting too much gas
and instead of circulating inside the reactor it is
escaping. You just need to back down on the rate of
injection.

I suspect, that with reactors, as with diffusers, a
given one can only do so much.
I suspect if one working properly is not increasing
the CO2 saturation enough and you are injecting to
where some of the gas is escaping out of the reactor,
you should add a second. But then I don't
have a tank measuring in the hundreds of gallons.

Just an observation?

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Overall, I think our discussion regarding my algae issue is heading towards Doomsday

Why do you say that? In any case sounds like your in the right place, mentally anyway. All these things: biofilter, organic control, can only help, increase plants, biofilter, feed less (with those baby espei) you could probably feed twice a week and be fine. I bet the food has alot to do with the organics problem. Not only is uneaten food in the tank but obviously the poop more too.
Remember I said when I stir things up in my tank I get very little gunk. I really don't feed alot. If you start doing all these things and your plant mass increases I bet your algae problems are history.

As far as the spraybar. Just angle the diffusor alittle bit toward the inside of the tank so the bubbles don't climb up the glass inbetween the diffusor. All I could tell you is I've never had more pearling than I have gotten since using the glass diffusor. Even in the event that some bubbles are wasted the method is much more effective for the plants. Co2 is pretty cheap. What $10 bucks every 6 months, so turn it up if you have to. My ph has been riding 6.0 lately with a kh of 2, so I have to be careful. So far fish look fine and plants look great.

Here's a pic of my diffusor / spraybar:







Attached Image:


My Scapes

And here's a pearling shot from last nite:



Attached Image:


My Scapes

And another:

I'ts funny you really get to know your tank after a while, every plant in my tank was pearling last nite, except the riccia, why? Because the aromatica has reached the top of the tank and the riccia is completely shaded. I've noticed the bushiness has stopped on it so if I do nothing, I'll probably get some bba from the slowed growth, but one I clip the aromatica it will come back good as new.

BTW: Check out the size od the wisteria leave behind the rotala

Attached Image:


My Scapes

Frank and tetratech,

Thanks for the input

I am basically pretty happy with the job the diffuser is doing. I have at least the same CO2 levels then I had before (with the reactor at same bubble rate), probably even more as I raised the KH by about 1dH (to maybe 4.5, previously I raised it only to maybe 3 to 3.5) and have the same end-day ph of about 6.6. I just don't like the trip to get a new filled bottle and wouldn't mind stretching it out some more. As such - the idea is to make sure all bubbles stay in the tank for longer. And it is over $20 here in NJ for a replacement bottle .

I will try the angle method, although I am not too optimistic about it as most bubbles that escape are actually in front of the spray bar. I asume that my diffuser is not even a good quality as a good half of the bubbles are rather large and the diffusion section on the ceramic plate is still only in one small part of it. Oh - how do I clean that sucker again?

Why do you say that?

Because I got the impression that the conclusion to my algae situation would be that I have to lower the fish load, otherwise I would be doomed to fields of algae forever. Maybe I misinterpreted the recent statements from my FP friends in this log.

Ingo

PS: tetratech, nice shots After seeing only the first picture I was already getting ready to state that a haircut may be needed, but then you mentioned it yourself

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I will try the angle method, although I am not too optimistic about it as most bubbles that escape are actually in front of the spray bar. I asume that my diffuser is not even a good quality as a good half of the bubbles are rather large and the diffusion section on the ceramic plate is still only in one small part of it. Oh - how do I clean that sucker again?

My problem was some was going between the glass and diffusor thus the angle. LF we are splitting hairs here. Measure your co2 tonite before lights out and see where you are. Diffusor, reactor, inline they all work, I do believe the diffusor methods creates more pearling. For the longest time my plants didn't pearl but their growth was beautiful. Let's move on:

BTW - Clean the diffusor with 1/3 bleach / water. Rinse with prime after that and put back in.

Because I got the impression that the conclusion to my algae situation would be that I have to lower the fish load, otherwise I would be doomed to fields of algae forever. Maybe I misinterpreted the recent statements from my FP friends in this log

I think you could have your fish, but if you want that type of load you might have to go over-the-top on maintenance. More biofilter, more plants, less feeding, mabye semiweekly gravelwash and waterchanges. Some tanks require less maintenance, all plants and like no fish, you know those tanks where you don't even need a filter. So it all depends what you want and where you tank fits in.

My Scapes

Oh - how do I clean that sucker again?

LF,
Bensaf is going to be mad at you!!

Basicly I do a 50/50 bleach/water bath for about 10 to 15 minuts. After that I rince the bugger like crazy for a while. Then I give it a second heavy bath in cheap water conditioner for another few minutes. Then a quick tap water rince and back in the tank.

I really think that tetra and ben are on to something with the fish load/bio filter thing. We really tend to over stock our tanks compared to the number of fish per area in the wild. To make this really work then you are going to have to up your bio filter. Things like sumps a quite cool because they add that much more water/bio area to your system.

What if one were to make a PVC add on to your canister like what Matt did for his CO2? Just fill the thing with bio balls or something. This would add more bio filter area and not cause issues like surface disterbance like a sump would.

I might just have to mess around with that when I move and have to mess with things anyways. I am already thinking of having the tank coming out from the wall at a 90 degree thus it would be viewable from three sides.

(sorry to get rambling....)

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Lucky wings gave a reminder how to clean the diffuser. I swore I wasn't going to it again

Tetra has 5ppm of P and no algae. Another nail in the coffin of the "P causes algae" myth

Don't worry about the bubbles from the diffuser. Part of the reason why diffusers lost out to reactors in popularity in the past was the "wasted gas" myth, btw the have you noticed how this hobby has more myth then even the ancient Greeks had ??

Most of the bubbles that reach the top are no longer co2 anyway, it's dissolved and exchanged with oxygen.

Nobody could understand why Amano was using those "inefficient" diffusers for years and refused to use a reactor. Heck, he even places his halfway up the tank, so I guess he's not worried about the bubbles "escaping".

Important thing is how much Co2 in the water. If the levels are good then the diffuser is doing it's job.

Good to see the algae is receding. Maybe the stability is helping. Either way an excellent omen. Just keep things steady !

The biggest hurdle most have with EI is the whole "excess" thing. Most think they can fine tune and micro-manage the nutrients. Cool if they can and they have the time for a lot of testing and monitoring. Me, I'd rather spoon the stuff in and then kick back with a smoke and a cup 'o joe and enjoy the tank. But basically , whether you use EI, PPS, Amano products or any other method, they all boil down to the same thing - getting the nutrients in the tank in sufficient quantity for the plants. They just differ slightly in how they add them. All the good methods focus on plants and don't devote any attention to algae. As tetra as mentioned before Amano fully expects algae and apart from adding abiot of specialist livestock to eat it, pretty much ignores it and keeps focused on the plants.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Lucky wings gave a reminder how to clean the diffuser. I swore I wasn't going to it again

As much as LF has been there for me I didn't want to see ben pull out his lightsaber and get him.

So just to make you guys laugh a little.... I dropped my phone in a creek while trout fishing tonight...the lady wasn't very happy.... this was number two!

EI question: I have been doing 1/2 tsp of pot. Nitrate in my 40G 3 times a week. I did a couple of test this week and I am coming up with 0 ppm each test. Doest this mean my plants are sucking the stuff right up? If so should I up it a little? I have noticed a little bit of green spot on my A. Nana. Everything else is rocking though.

Sorry I am off subject and log hacking.





55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

I dropped my phone in a creek while trout fishing tonight...

I once dropped mine in the toilet bowl while having a pee Fished it out I let it dry out. Of course I needed a new cell. There's alot of big markets here that only deal in cell phones. Took the old one with me to trade in and get a few bucks off a new one. All going well until the store guy decides to remove the antenna compartment to check it. Puzzled look on his faces as he notices the rust ! He's not sure what it is so he deides to sniff it The look of sheer of disgust and horror on his face was priceless

EI question: I have been doing 1/2 tsp of pot. Nitrate in my 40G 3 times a week. I did a couple of test this week and I am coming up with 0 ppm each test. Doest this mean my plants are sucking the stuff right up?

No it means your test kit is rubbish !

That's a lot of KNO3 to be adding to a 40gal. No way the plants are sucking it all up. Dodgy kit.

Plants showing any signs of N deficiency ? Trust them more then the kit.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Well thanks to Wings then, otherwise the secret of how to clean a diffuser would have been lost forever

But, I have to dig deeper into the cleaning ritual. Given that the diffuser is full of water (oh, BTW, there is some white substance forming on the inside bottom of mine) I would assume that you don't empty it first before you clean it. Given that, I further assume that it is unavoidable that some bleach will be mixed in with the water inside the diffuser. Now, after putting it in a Prime bath, can one be sure that this bleach is neutralized?

Yeah Bensaf, let's try the stability theorem first. I always have time later to reduce fish count, black-outs, poison, and what not . At least I can try to give nature a chance.

Wings, I agree with Bensaf, your N addition should be fine. Your tank is pretty much 1/3 of mine, and I add 3 times the N than you do. And I get healthy N readings.

Bensaf - I guess I shouldn't buy used objects from you

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Yeah the plants are looking just fine. Growing like weeds. Maybe I should test another tank to see what happens....

Yeah I think you topped my cell phone story BTW ben. Phone report this morning is all is fine and dandy!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
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No it means your test kit is rubbish !

I say class action against the makers of test kits for emotional duress.

I was putting in about that in my 72 for the longest time. Recently I have moved up to around 5/8 to 3/4 and my tank is almost twice the size of yours Wings and I still show good ranges of no3 (Then again it's based on a test kit)

My Scapes

I keep saying that it is entirely simple to test if your kit is bunk or not. Just test it against a known concentration. make up a gallon of water and put in according to Chucks calculator, the amount that would be 10ppm or 20ppm(whatever you want in your tank). Mix well, and test. From then on that is what you want in your tank. Obviously if it doesn't register anything throw out your kit. Or call up the company and they will likely send out a new one or something. Most companies aren't out to rip you off.

I only tested until I figured the right amount of nutrients to put in the tank every other day to keep the levels I want. Now I only test once a month before the water change. Things have always looked good, and worked out well logically too. Test kits are a good tool if you use them right.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

But, I have to dig deeper into the cleaning ritual. Given that the diffuser is full of water (oh, BTW, there is some white substance forming on the inside bottom of mine) I would assume that you don't empty it first before you clean it. Given that, I further assume that it is unavoidable that some bleach will be mixed in with the water inside the diffuser. Now, after putting it in a Prime bath, can one be sure that this bleach is neutralized?

Over thinking alert.Over thinking alert.Over thinking alert.

Yes don't empty it. It'll be fine. Being doing this for months now, no problems.

If you assume the bleach will get into the water in the diffuser then you also have to assume the Prime will also.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Over thinking alert

You have no idea, here comes over thinking:

"If you assume the bleach will get into the water in the diffuser then you also have to assume the Prime will also." - But Prime and Bleach have different consistencies and maybe bleach is smoother and more of it would enter the diffuser than Prime can eliminate .



Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

So Prime the crap out of it!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Thanks Wings, more to this in a few posts, but now:

Weekly Tank Update - Week 30

This week was marked more by talk than by action . Endless discussions on what should be done to reduce my algae ended with me deciding to maintain the status quo and see where the tank will go from here. Rushed action taken in the past never gave the tank time to settle, I think this approach is worth a try. I also believe to see the first improvements, although it may be wishful thinking.

So, on to the photos: There will be only 2 full shots of the full tank as there are quite a few details of fish and plants, in particular fish, that I would like to share.

Here is the tank last weekend after the water change:

Attached Image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And here is the tank now this weekend, after the water change. As you can see, the Star Grass grows as strong as usual. It seems that a bi-weekly replant is becoming the norm for this group. based on tetratech's bad experience with simply trimming off the top of his Star Grass (a long time ago) I decided to always replant by cutting the bottoms out.

No major trimming has been performed this weekend, only a few dying leaves of the remaining Helferi plants have been pinched off. I guess next week I will also hae to trim the Alternanthera on the right:

Attached Image:

Week 30 - Today

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is a picture of the glass diffuser before I cleaned it. As you may be able to see, the top of the ceramic plate is pretty green. Cleaning was based on the given info by Wings and tetratech, combined with the approval of Bensaf, a breeze. All looks very clean now and no fish died (so far) of bleach poisoning .

I also followed tetratech's example and angled the diffuser slightly by removing the bottom sucktion cup. The week will show if it makes a difference, but it looks like a little more of the bubbles are washed into the current.

Attached Image:

Diffuser

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is an interesting picture that shows one thing, algae on decline. I cannot identify why the algae is reciding in this spot as it may have to do with the fact that I dripped Excel over it during last weeks water change.

Algae in the rest of the tank is at least not further increasing.

Photo: left was last week, right is now:

Attached Image:

Yeah Baby

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Now on to a few detail shots. Again tetratech served as an inspiration (I hope you see it this way as well tetratech, and don't brand me a copy cat ) and so I climbed on a chair and took some top shots of the tank.

Given the size of my tank it is impossible to cover it all, not even front to back fits in one picture. I guess I will have to remove a piece of the floor on the first floor so I can look straight down to the tank in the basement and make a full shot .

Anyway, here is the left side - front area - of the tank from the birds-eye view. From left to right, you see:

- A red Wendtii with Pearl Grass in front of it
- One small stem of Wisteria
- An open field with crypt Wendtii (small ones that never took off in the tank within the last 30 weeks), Lucens, and Lutea.
- On the right back is an Anubias leave and in the front the end of the big driftwood:


Attached Image:

Left Top View

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is the middle section of the tank.

All across the picture is the wood and one can also see the rock that holds it down.

Plants in the picture are:

Narrow Leaf Java Fern with Anubias Nana Petite in front of it, a Red Wendtii, some dwarf sags, and Pearl Grass.

Attached Image:

Middle from Top

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is the right corner of the tank from above.

On the left side you can see the remaining tiny group of Glosso that slowly starts to settle again. Behind it is a row of 3 Isoetes Lacustris. All ovehanging leaves are from Helferi, Crypt Retrospiralis, and the rather new Hygrophila augustifolia. The right corner in itself is filled with Pearl Grass (can you tell I really like that plant? ), with a small stem of Wisteria to the left of it.

Attached Image:

Right Corner from Top

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well I'm glad alage didn't dominate your posts today. Just let the plants grow and I'll withhold and scaping comments for a few weeks. I'm confident your put this algae thing behind you soon.

Yeah I like the overhead shots it gives a different prospective on the tank and it's interesting to see what's going on. The wisteria looks very clean and healthy so that should spread quickly and help out.

Did your diffusor come with those suction cups? I only have mine attache by the tubing and it keeps breaking away.

BTW - How come you haven't put the apistos in yet?

My Scapes

On to some fish pictures

You guys and gals have to let me know when you have enough of seeing the same fish over and over again as I just like to look at them.

Here is a shot of 2 male Rainbows, unfortunately I couldn't get both with their full bodies in the shot.

Attached Image:

Male Dwarf Rainbows

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Here is a nice one where the Pearls seem to follow the lead of the Rainbow.

Where they are going though is beyond me

Maybe you remember some older shots of the male Pearl, but I can tell that he is becoming a grown-up. His finnage is getting longer and his throat more and more orange-yellow. He also likes the company of the female more than he did in the past:

Attached Image:

Pearls and Rainbow

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Now there will be two shots of the Apisto Pair. I assume that I will add them during this week to the tank, I am in no rush though. They also have truely bonded and I am sure that they would breed under the right conditions. Unfortunately I don't think that the 125 will be able to provide these conditions - too many fish

Here is a shot that displays the difference in size between the male and female

Attached Image:

Apisto Pair I

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And here is the second shot of the pair. This time the female is either telling her man to stay away or she shows him how pretty she is. I cannot tell which one is the case as we males misinterpret female signs by definition

Attached Image:

Apisto Pair II

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Last but not least, a good old Oto picture. Today I saw 5 of them (I have 6) for the first time in at least 3 weeks at the same time. With these guys you never know how many are still alive.

Here is one munching away on algae on my big piece of driftwood, just beautiful:

Attached Image:

Hungry Oto

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I'll withhold and scaping comments for a few weeks

Thanks tetratech

Sorry, only now when reviewing my entries did I see your entry. I hope you are right about the algae issue being behind me at some point.

The Wisteria in the top shots are small cut off pieces from the 20G, the ones that I bought at the store a little over a week ago are further in the back as they are taller already.

The suction cups did not come with the diffuser. They are standard air hose cups and barely fit around the diffuser pipe. I also had the diffuser break away from the cups. If you look closely at the picture then you may see that I locked the bottom cup with a rubber band to the pipe, that seems to work. This cup is now on top of the pipe so the bottom can lean against the glass and angle the unit for a better of bubbles in the spray bar current.

The Apistos will most likely be added this week, I am not in a rush with that as they are doing just great in the QT and I am not sure if I would like to add more fish any time soon. Although, 8 Cories may be nice

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

So Excel works great with a dirct hit to the algae. I found that out at work too!

That algae in the oto picture is nice looking stuff! You grow it very well I must say!

If you look at tetra's over head pictures compared to your what do you see? Way more plant mass in tetra's tank. I think that is probably his biggest differnce compared to your tank.

Want me to mail you so Sunset Hygro? I have a tank full it floating right now. Grows like weed!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Hi Ingo

I love your pics. I especially love the Apisto Pair.

they should breed under the right conditions. Unfortunately I don't think that the 125 will be able to provide these conditions - too many fish

That might be right. I have on order 2 pelvicachromis taeniatus Moliwe, which I was told are a rarer cousin of the krib (at least in Oz). They are still on their way to Oz. They had to be preordered & bought as a pair. I was told not to add them to my community tank, as the goal should be breeding and that a community tank will be too busy for success. You know I'm inexperienced, so I don't know if LFS is right or not, but LFS said they should be in a tank with only a few dither fish to give them confidence. My QT will become their home. I will still have another small QT (you might remember my thread about that). My community tank is almost stocked (only ottos to go). Therefore, I shouldn't need a big QT any more. I'm looking forward to seeing if I can breed them.

Cheers
TW

Robyn and Wings,

I know we had talked about other stuff before, and I hope you remember the details, as I forgot. But I think it was mostly about your Krib cousins, Robyn.

So I have a new question: Do you folks think it would be advisable to prepare some form of case, like flower pot or something, before I add the Apistos to the main tank? If so, I guess less current in that area would be better and as such it should be on the right side of the tank, right?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Something you might want to try is sticking a flower pot in there but hide it under a bunch of rocks and plants. That way they have there hide out and you have more of a mound.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

and then cover that with anubias, java moss, or fern so you don't lose any of your plant mass.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Ingo, I think some posts have disappeared - you gave me some good articles & links about those krib cousins.

Re: the flower pot. That's what I've read I should put in for my P.taeniatus Moliwe. Suggestions are to invert the flower pot, but firstly enlarge the water outlet hole to be just large enough for the female to enter.

Cheers
TW

Thanks guys, and gal, for the input

Suggestions are to invert the flower pot

Invert as in upside-down? I don't think I am going to do that. My tank and its inhabitants are way too much of a gunk producing machine and I believe the living conditions inside that pot would deteriorate rather quickly. Instead I intend to (if I use a pot) place it sideways, about half of it buried in the gravel. Also the pot should not be too deep. Enlarging the hole is a good idea though, I read some posts here (a long time ago) referring to fish that got stuck in these holes.

The next thought would have to be the exact position, meaning - where can I place this cave so that it can be covered with plants (as Matty said) without sticking out too much and at the same time allow me to look into the pot so I can see if there is anything moving in there? I still assume it would have to be on the right side, far away from the filter intake and in calmer waters. I will see what I can do.

Thanks again,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Instead I intend to (if I use a pot) place it sideways, about half of it buried in the gravel

A clay pot in planted aquaria

Guess I now know the difference between planted aquaria and aquascaping.

Cichlid Central

My Scapes

Cichlid Central

Well, I was using the clay pot more as a visual guide to a structure that is yet to be defined, if that makes any sense .

Conceptually, I believe that I would need something that has walls and a top, basically a clay pot (and no, I didn't yet "borrow" a pot from my wife for the tank and neither did I buy one).

Is that more scape like, tetratech?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is another idea for you. Get the pot and silicon your gravel to it. Then suround it by other rocks and cover them with plants as Matt said. This might help it fit in more.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

What do cichlids do in nature? Do they use clay pots that old ladies threw in the lake after their flowers die. Arrange something more nature or do what Wings said. If I see a clay pot on it's side in the aquascaping or planted aquaria forums I'm going to insist that the mods move all your stuff to Cichlid Central

My Scapes

Well, I don't think LF wants rotting leaf litter on the bottom of his tank, so that throws out the "do it like nature" idea

I think the clay pot can be pulled off pretty easily and effectively. Ya can't just leave it sticking up in the middle of the scape, that would look ugly. But if you lay it on its side with the mouth pointing towards the front of the tank or whichever area you want to view it from, and then bury half of it under the gravel so that only a "half moon" is sticking out of the bottom that should work. Cover it with moss or let Wisteria grow in around it. It'll be invisible in no time.

Or just let them find their own spot, which may happen anyway

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Back in the saddle!

Well, I don't think LF wants rotting leaf litter on the bottom of his tank

Sounds good to me

There are many rocks you could use to create a honeymoon suite! Wisteria and clay pots. Talk about your "Weed Garden"



My Scapes

tetratech

Or just let them find their own spot, which may happen anyway

Which brings me back to the original question, which was like "do you think it is advisable to add a cave" (I wrote case, but that is what I meant)

So I guess in the interest of not having my thread moved to Cichlid Central, and in the interest not to upset my AquaScaping friends, I may just let them find their own territory.

In any way, what would be the chances of survival for any fry in this fish-invested tank ? Being really slow growers they run too many risks, being eaten, sucked into the filter, sucked into the drain during water change, and what not.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

If they're first time spawners it's likely that the parents will eat the fry before the other fish get a chance to.

After a couple swawns they may get the hang of parenting and a few might make it, but it's a crap shoot.

I am of the opinion that when fish start breeding in a community tank it's best to just let nature take its course and work from there. If they spawn and none make it, be happy that WC is good enough for them to spawn. If a few make it, you have some nice additions to your tank or some nice fish to sell. If you really want to breed them and raise the fry then a seperate tank would be best

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Back in the saddle!

So I guess in the interest of not having my thread moved to Cichlid Central, and in the interest not to upset my AquaScaping friends, I may just let them find their own territory

Well I certainly appreciate that. I was about to direct you a site that sells underwater neon lights and those little divers that circle around the tank with an airline tube attached.

Hard to say if any wil survive. To be honest I think my rams might have given up after three attempts. Unless they are laying eggs in one of the seven layers of wisteria.
You could always cover the intake with a netting to help out. It also depends if your espei turn into little piranhas like my cardinals do when the see fry.


My Scapes

I was about to direct you a site that sells underwater neon lights and those little divers that circle around the tank with an airline tube attached.

Oh goodie, yeah - I need that link. Are the neon lights blinking and moving around like a lighthouse beam? "Burn baby burn, disco inferno"



Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Yeah the ones that burn the fish retinas so they spaz out and people think they are "dancing".

I honestly don't think hiding a clay pot or other such formation would be very hard in a 125 tank. The pot or similar structure wouldn't have to be very big, just enough for them to fit into. It would easily dissapear into whatever aquascape you wanted. Add some plant mass to the structure and it can even be mostly buried. I would think that it would be less bulky and eyecatching than a "natural" formation to make a cave.

That's all assuming that they could even find whatever you put in there for them. I'm not sure that apisto territories are as large as a 125.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

A good alternative to a flowerpot is a more natural looking ceramic cave like the ones they have at www.cichlidbreeding.com. I just bought a bunch of them for an African tank, and they really do look quite natural underwater, and could just as easily be hidden by plants and hardscape. You could even dispurse several of them throughout the tank so that they would have more choice of territories.

Hoping that there must be a word for everything I mean...

Yeah the ones that burn the fish retinas so they spaz out and people think they are "dancing".

They really aren't dancing to the disco lights? Dang it! I guess its time to get that out of my tank. I have been hiding it from you guys behind my "thing".

Just remember LF this is your tank. You do what you want. I if you want to try to hide a pot then go for it. If you want it to have flowers coming out of it like a old lady through it in the river then have flowers coming out of it. Just make sure to use the old faded plastic ones.

But really... I don't think it would hurt anything to put in some "breeding" structure. They may or may not use it or even want to breed. Who knows really....

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

LF already said he will "let nature take it's course" and not taint the courtship with an 1-800-FLOWERS BOUQUET.

If you guys had your way he'd end up removing everything and have a bare bottom breeders tank with a bunch of knocked over flower pots.

My Scapes

illustrae - thank you so much, that is a nice link. Some of these structures look kind of weird, but the first one of the Breeding Cave section would be suitable, I think.

Wings - you are right, it is my tank. But I value your (your as in all FP members) input. If it wouldn't have been for you folks my tank would for sure not look like it does now. Come to think of it, maybe that would have been a good thing

Ingo

EDIT: Didn't see tetratech's input until I finished mine, so tetratech -

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well, everyone got very excited about the flowerpot thing.

I guess I'm still going to do it, but it won't be in my planted community tank, but in a separate dedicated tank for my P.Taeniatus Moliwe. I've found myself some aquarium safe clear silicone & I'm going to attach gravel in & outside of it & then tie some java moss to it. Or I might look around for a natural looking ornament cave that I can also hide with bunch of java moss tied to it.

I hope it won't be too much of an eyesore, but the main goal of this separate tank will be for my P.Taeniatus Moliwe to breed.

That should mean my 43.G log, without the contamination of a disguised flowerpot, should be allowed to stay in the planted forum.

Cheers
TW