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Was that a list ?

Am I the only one here who is losing track of what we once called the overall idea of EI?

Hope not. As I said the important thing to do is add the nutrients. It can be done in a way that's convenient for you. The 3 times a week is for ease of use. Daily in smaller doses is ok. The important thing is that the nutrients are there, even to slight excess.

Or did we even concede and identified that EI is not working on a newly established tank, at least not in my case?

I haven't. 10 ppm of PO4 is not EI. Your dosage of PO4 at the start was out of the normal range of PO4 dosing. How much of an impact this had I'm not sure. Add to this you may have introduced BGA from another tank. Problem with algae is it can get into the system pretty quick but it takes a lot longer to beat it back. Being a bacteria rather then an algae BGA is one of the most difficult to beat back. The brown algae and thread algae are pretty common in new set ups with or without dosing. Your tank looks good, you are by no means infested, we have to look hard to find algae. I'd be willing to bet that you would have had the same issues without the dosing, just a lot more of it.The dosing at start up put the advantage the plants way, look at the growth. You've had other planted tanks, you may have started up other planted tanks, think back , have you had this kind of growth before dosing EI ? Is growth better now or worse ? You decide. Decide based on plant growth not algae. If the plant growth is at optimum the algae will die back in time. You wouldn't be the first to see some pretty bad algae disappear almost overnight. Bear in mind that algae is very difficult to kill, the trick is to prevent new growth. Once you've stopped the new stuff coming through, the old will die off slowly or we physically remove it.

[quote}If my plants suck up the minimum of Ammonia that is produced by the few fish, why bother with Purigen?
I tend to agree. With so many plants and so few fish I don't think Ammonia is an issue NOW.

EI means over-fertilization, why would I reduce to create a close to starvation environment?

Only if you want to micro manage IF you are skeptical about the heavy nutrient dosing. Some are and test and add daily. This is closer to the PPS method but both are based on adding and ensuring nutrients are constantly available.
I am somewhat confused, I thought you were feeling skeptical about the whole method, but I sense from this post you are actually pretty much convinced it works.

What would be possibly an issue NOW if my Nitrates are 20ppm, Potassium 20ppm, Phosphates 2ppm, and micros so that the Iron seems to be ok?

CO2 ? That's the most important - is it up in the 30ppm range and staying there consistently ?
Are you seeing new algae coming through each day or is it just the old stuff lingering. If it's just the old stuff then you've already won.
If it's still new stuff coming through then go back to the Co2. You parameters are spot on. Your dosing is good. That rules out nutrients. The light is a given and we know you have enough.
What's left ? Only the Co2. Crank it up slowly and watch the fish. You can do this at a time when you are there for a though out the day to observe. Crank it up slowly, watch the fish, if they are ok , crank up a little more.And so on. If the fish show any sign of distress back it down to a notch to the last increase. You know have your optimum level of Co2, high but not harming the fish.
It nearly always comes back to Co2.

Didn’t we once identify that each change should be given time to take effect?

Yep, but I didn't think anyone was listening

If you are comfortable with it continue as you are going.

Recheck the Co2. Get it good. Watch the plants and fish. If you've got good pearling and the fish are ok, Co2 should be good. Eyeball this rather then pH levels, they can be off a bit.

Try the lighting burst in the middle of the day. But again make sure you're still getting the same pearling.

If you see any green spot algae on glass or plants recheck PO4 as it may be running low.

Try this for 2-3 weeks. Only thing that should be altered is Co2. Remove whatever algae you can during water changes.

It's Saturday. I need a beer or 3.:%)

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Bensaf,

I think LF took a well deserved night off or he's making a tossed salad. He needs a rest from us (probably more me than you - :%)

Anyway, during my little green water week, I reduced dosing to 1/4 tsp no3 1/16 tsp po4 twice/wkly and dropped the so4 completely. I haven't even dosed the micros becuase of all the wc and today I have some of the best pearling I ever had. But the one thing I didn't change was the co2. I keep it up.

One thing I don't get about LF's tank. If he's got no nh3 what is the algae living on? Is it living on the nitrogenous waste before it even becomes nh3? If not, than wouldn't it have to be the po4 no3? I've said this in the other thread the Purigen doesn't get rid of nh3 it get's rid of the source, which is the nitrogenous waste from everything.


Last edited by tetratech at 14-Oct-2005 21:59

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and today I have some of the best pearling I ever had.

Because you no longer have a green tint to the water more light is getting through. More light = more pearling. It's agood sign, but it also means more uptake. Keep an eye on it. You may have to go back up in dosing. Watch the pearling, make sure it doesn't slow down or stop.

If he's got no nh3 what is the algae living on?

No point wrecking your head trying to figure that one out. The amounts of nutrients they need are so minisicule it's pointless trying to starve them out. The various types have there own preferences, but they all like NH3.Some like BBA do well when there's a lot of carbonates and unstable co2 they don't really care about nutrient levels.
That's why it's so darn difficult to get rid of once it's in. You can only let the higher order plants take over and crowd them out. It's slow but it works. To be honest nobody really knows why, it just seems to be algae can't survive in an environment where there are a lot of plants in optimum condition.How can you starve out something that can survive in nutrient levels of parts per billion ? You can use RO or distilled water but then you can't grow anything.
Most everybody has some amount of algae, the best you can really hope for is a level so small that it's invisible.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

I think LF took a well deserved night off or he's making a tossed salad

Actually, I had a lot of work to do in the office and when I came home I decided to spend some time with the family as they usually see me only with my face glued to the glass of the tank and cursing . And then I got tired and fell asleep, at 8:15PM – I am an old man .

To sum it up, yes – I am trying to follow through on the EI method and all my attempts so far have been designed to adjust the rather global EI parameters to fit my specific tank (Tom Barr would be so proud of me]]). I should have been clearer about this.
Do I question that it works? – I sure do, so far none of us has ever set up a brand new tank and dosed like a madman .
Do I give up that quickly? – Not if I can avoid it. If your response to my last entry would have been that we concede then I might have said that we should look for a different approach.

About the dosing:
Changing to daily dosing (1/2 the bi-daily dosage, of course) raises one question. I thought I heard it was better to dose macros and micros on separate days as they might cause a chemical reaction (explode ) when used together. Is that wrong?

About the current growth in the tank:
I get the impression that my plants are actually slowing down now. I might be wrong as I might simply have adjusted my expectations to the facts. The one thing that seems to have changed in my setup is that it appears to me as if the reactor has less bubbles in it to dissolve than earlier in the process, even if the bubble rate is higher (at least 3bps – stable). I see that there is some water in the tubing to the reactor, is that normal? I unhooked the hose 2 days ago and tried to drain it as much as possible, but yesterday it was back. It is not much; maybe 1” of the hose has water (close to the lowest point, being pushed towards the reactor by the CO2 pressure). I was wondering if this water blocks the flow and CO2 escapes somehow at the spot where the hose is connected to the bubble counter. I will put a fastener around it, if that is possible. Another reason for a lack of bubbling might be that the small pump on the reactor is getting dirty. I will clean it today and keep you posted.

When I looked at the tank last night it seemed as if the algae in one area are clearing up a little (the area to the left of the right tank side; that is the one that had the least algae problems. But this might be wishful thinking .

Ingo

PS: I switched to the sun-burst lighting period (3 hours half way through the light cycle) yesterday. It is too early though to see if it will make a difference. Also, I don’t know if I can crank up the CO2 until I see the fish showing signs of distress (although I get the point). I am worried that if I try this my fry would be already dead. Hey, I got lots of algae, but I also got about 10 free Espei in there .

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The one thing that seems to have changed in my setup is that it appears to me as if the reactor has less bubbles in it to dissolve than earlier in the process, even if the bubble rate is higher (at least 3bps – stable). I see that there is some water in the tubing to the reactor, is that normal
When I look at my bubble counter attached to the regulator I can't really count the number of bubbles coming out. It's gotta be at least 5 bps, but there are times it's not consistent on the hagen ladder (yes still using). So logical would say something's escaping. My ladder isn't as efficient as your reactor obviously and I don't see any reaction from the fish. Also my co2 rate, which is tough to peg because of the colors on my ph kit. It's very hard to tell the difference between some of the colors.

Bensaf:
For the record, I believe in EI, but only for a tank with a mature biofilter and loads of plants. I also believe the startup is what caused the algae problems for LF and myself. Look if you fill a tank with just water, no gravel, no plants, no fish and put 1 wpg on, Are you going to get algae eventually - Yes. Probably from the tiny amounts of whats in the water coupled with the light, but I bet you won't be able to measure any NH3.

I don't believe at startup the plants were sucking up enough to combat algae and to remove the "niche" they live in. We could speculate forever the exist reason, but anything not used becomes waste eventually so we don't know exactly what the algae could use. All the additional light, etc just made it that much easier for the algae to gain a foothold.

My Scapes

I took out the reactor and cleaned it (and the pump). There is not much that can be cleaned at the pump and it didn’t look too dirty either. I wiped off the film of algae that formed on the reactor’s inside and I think I see some algae in the way top area where the reactor inside is curved. Maybe there is a gap that allows the CO2 to escape upwards and out of the reactor without being transformed into tiny bubbles. I will keep an eye open for it.

As to the water in the CO2 line, I guess that is normal as there was more this morning while the unit was turned off. Right?

tetratech – “I believe in EI, but only for a tank with a mature biofilter and loads of plants” - I will stick with it for a while longer, here we have an option to evaluate its feasibility. If I cancel it now we will never be able to make a statement one way or the other. Let’s try to ride it out. Sorry in advance for all the algae ranting that is still to come .

Ingo

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Sorry in advance for all the algae ranting that is still to come .
With the wife, three kids and a herding dog your ranting is music to my ears

My Scapes

I have a wife, 2 kids, and a crazy cat (25lbs).

But the kids count for 20 as they are 5 year old twins .

Back to fussing with the tank, I will post again tonight.

Ingo

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Ok, my head hurts, school was inspected this week, been up all hours working. have missed so much in this thread. phew. am i confused.

I just wanted to say hello. will have to read it all again to try and figure out what you guys are talking about!

oh and for the film

Bensaf - George Clooney
Tetratech - Russell Crowe
LittleFish - Liam Neeson.

and the plot hmmm maybe it should be a type of super algae brought back from the moon and you three have to stop it before takes over the world............

now I really need to go lay down

GFG

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Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey S. Firestone

GFG – you must be glad this week is over, hopefully next week you have time to get a headache from reading this thread .
Hey, my wife once had a crush on Liam Neeson (when he was younger), I am glad you picked him for me. Otherwise, she might fall in love with Bensaf or tetratech.

Tank updates:

Not much has happened today, it seems I am getting towards the end of the slime algae. It is still multiplying on various spots, in particular the moss, but by far not as much as it used to. The most common alga that is now in the tank are individual strands with a length of about 1 to 4 inches, I also have a few strands that are easily 8 inches long. They grow best on the moss, gravel, anubias, and rocks. I measured the phosphates and I would say that they are close to 2ppm, although the color didn’t match anything in particular . (oh, and ph of about 6.6 and KH of almost 5, the reactor works just fine, I guess it needed the inside cleaned)

I had to take out the Rotala Macrandra (the red plant on the right end of the tank) as it’s lower half leaves were rotting away. I assume it was not getting enough light as the Water Sprite behind it is growing tall and dense. I cleaned the Rotala and cut some of them shorter. Then I took out the Hornwort (a fast grower, but what an ugly plant ) that was placed between the rocks and put the Rotala in its place. The Hornwort was trashed, it started to rot in some places and small pieces of that area were floating in the tank. It must have had too much of the slime algae on it.

And I made a request to the fish society that they should reconsider the species to which the Harlequin Rasbora Espei belongs. I strongly believe that they belong to the species of Rabbits. I have at least 30 fry in there. If that continues then I will have a super large school way before tetratech.

Photos and more updates tomorrow after the water change.

Ingo

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Ingo, exactly what are you giving your Harlies? Mine aren't multiplying like anythingthat I know of Now the corries in the bottom have uh been busy again i've noticed, got some that are rather small

Anyways, we need pictures I'm glad the slimy gunk algae is disappearing, I know that must be a relief, unfortunately how much sanity have you lost with the algae?

So what else are you thinking of putting in the 125? Or are you going to let the ones in there go ahead and just take over the tank? That would be the easy way to do itof course you might want to start looking for an LFS that will be willing to buy some of them back from you

Can't wait to see pics after tomorrow's water change,
Heidi

"I've got a great ambition to die of exhaustion rather than boredom." Thomas Carlyle

Oh, I get to be George Clooney

Algae receding eh, interesting

The water in tubing is normal.

For daily dosing, macros in morning, micros in evening or vice versa.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Russell Crowe is fine by me GFG. Gladitor one of my favs all time.

We are all eagerly awaiting PWC(Post Water Change) pic.
I'm a little off today, drinking Cabo Tequila and Rum last nite. :%)

My Scapes

Uh, my back hurts

I just spent 4 hours bent over the tank and removed 25G of water (into buckets) with the smallest vacuum that I have. I did this so that I can reach most of the algae directly without risking of sucking all the fry out. The rest of the 50% water change was done with the Python. I had to do quite some cutting and fussing in the tank. The Water Sprite on the right got so tall and dense that all plants in front of it didn’t get enough light anymore. So I cut it shorter all over the tank and then replanted bits of cutting from the Pennywort and the Mayaca Fluviatilis in the right front section.


Heidi – I don’t know yet what other fish I will add, current front-runners are Black Neons, Rummies, and Glwo Lights. Later, maybe Rainbows, and Gouramies. I asked the LFS guy today if they take fish for store credit, but most likely not; they showed interest in a school of about 30 Rasbora Espei though.

Bensaf – Algae is receding, just like our hair line . At least that is the impression that I get. In particular the brown slime is slowing down. I now see on my sags and vals black bushel of hair growing. About ferts every day, I am somewhat hesitant to add them in the morning as the tank is in the basement and it is really dark down there at the time before I leave the house. I would have to turn on the light and disturb the fish in their “sleep”. Do you think they would mind?

We should hire GFG as our film director as she seems to have a hand in picking our actors.

Otherwise, against better knowledge, I went to the LFS and bought 3 younger Otos that came into the store on Thursday. They are being acclimated to the tank right now, let’s hope they make it.

Without further babbling, here are some pictures. First some detail shots:

Glosso starting to spread

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Pennywort Mountain in left 3rd of tank

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Rotala Macrandra at the end of Rock Valley

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Now, 4 pics of the tank development

Setup Day

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Week 1

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Week 2

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Week 3

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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LF,
From those great pics it really is hard to believe you having all those algae problems. So the area to the front right that was not algae-e, that's the area that was shaded by thw water sprite. Definitely sounds like too much light for not enough usage by plants at the early stages.

The Glosso is looking good, what's that stuff right behind it. I also wanted to do a glosso carpet, I guess I'll see how the hairgrass develops.

My Scapes

tetratech,

I think you are right as the algae issues are more severe in the front of the tank where only a few sags are located. But now it is nicely spread out on plant leave edges, rocks, and moss.

The stuff, as you called it, behind the glosso is actually hair grass (dwarf I guess, if such a thing exists) with the exception of the plant right in the middle and behind the glosso. That’s a free plant piece that was in the mix of other plants. I put it there so I can see what it might turn into. Maybe its nothing else but Hornwort , in that case I will rip it out.

About hard to tell that I have algae problems – that’s what 4 hours of cleaning can do. Let’s wait a few days and see if it gets messy again. And thin threads are not visible at the distance that is needed to capture the whole tank.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

That glosso will look incredible if you can grow it right between those two main rocks. It will look a thin valley from behind spreading out wider to the front. Wow!

My Scapes

Finally,

Someone can spot a glimpse of my vision

Thanks tetratech,

I love you

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Great minds think alike!

My Scapes

Great minds think alike!

And fools seldom differ.....

I'd be willing to bet the algae is on the way out.

I said it many pages back it's normal for some algae to appear in the first 2-3 weeks. I also warned against letting either algae or test kits throw you off course. Keep focused on plants, don't fight algae. I also said at the start more plants. This was nothing to do with increasing uptake of No3 or PO4, rather about crowding out algae, more ammonia uptake and increased oxygen and more places for bacteria to colonise.Another week or so will see if I was right.

I can't subscribe to the theory that the EI dosing at start up was not working. For that to be correct it would mean that excess NO3 and PO4 in the water column causes algae. I know that not to be true from experience. The only way to prove it would be to set up a similar tank at the same time with no dosing and see how that fared against this one. I'm betting the no dose tank would have the same issues only more severe.

I'll ask the question again (nobody answered the first time) how does both your plant growth and health compare to previous tanks you have kept ? From the pics I'm thinking much much better.If the answer is yes it's better why is that ? Good Co2 and good nutrients , maybe ? That's what it's about right, growing plants, it's certainly not about testing and fretting over algae.

Look at the pic of week 3. Tells you all you need to know. Alage can't survive in there for long if you keep on top of the Co2 and nutrients. Now you just have to whip it into shape and build up an organised aquascape. Do that slowly. Don't rip up lots of plants to move or replace in one shot.

Congratulations, you now both know how to grow healthy strong plants Not so difficult is it? Nobody has a magic wand to make a good looking tank, it's just a few minutes a week dosing and keeping on top of the Co2.Keep focused on them and their needs and I guarantee you will have very very few issues in the future. Maybe, just maybe, I can get some peace now and get back to a lot less typing and a lot more drinking

BTW the fish won't mond the lights being on for the few minutes while you dose.

Last edited by bensaf at 16-Oct-2005 22:38

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

And fools seldom differ.....
Funeeeeee

Don't know for sure about po4 no3, but I am of the believe that all that light with minute traces of nh3 will cause algae. This condition will exist at startup with the plants not uptaking at a great rate. Without a mature biofilter and/or AC is opened that "niche" to the algae. I agree in a crowded mature tank dosing the EI way it appears that algae can't get a foothold. When you look at it that way I think Uncle Ben is right. But I gave an example 10 posts or so ago. If you startup a tank with 1 wpg and nothing in the water, no sub,floral,fauna will you still get algae? I believe you will eventually because whatever is in the water has enough traces to get the algae going. Many heavy hitters prescribe to using AC at startup because the biofilter isn't available to rid the tank of these minute traces. You will never measure this activity with a test kit.

My Scapes

Speculations, speculations, speculations

Anyway, Bensaf is for sure right when he said that we will never have proof because we have no test tank of equal setup but without fertilizer addition etc.

But I have no intention to give Bensaf a break so he can ruin his liver a little faster . What would we be without him? The 2 Stooges?

To that point, I have not defeated the algae problem yet. Clearly, the brown slime production machine is slowing down dramatically, but that has nothing to do with ferts or lights, it is based on the diminishing silica resources in the tank.

However, I still have enough algae to keep us talking for while. I see the green hairs, which, after the latest water change, don’t scare me that much anymore as they are easily coming of the plants when pulled. Unlike the latest addition to the family, black patchy hairs that are solidly attached to leaves. It doesn’t quite fit the description of BBA (Black Beard Algae) as that one is supposed to have strands no longer than a quarter of an inch and mine are for sure longer. BBA supposedly thrives on high phosphates and that would fit the description. Any ideas?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Oh dear is there no peace to be had ?

What color is it ? What plants ?BBA can vary quite a bit in appearance.

If it is BBA it's not phosphates. It's Co2. It could care less about No3 or PO4 levels , it thrives on unstable swinging Co2 levels.

I used to have a terrible time with it before I got Co2 going good. Co2 in the 30 ppm range, constant throughout the photo period, really does work. Since I got this bit right never have an issue with it. Even Anubias in bright light (usually the first to succumb) can resist it in high Co2 levels. Stability is the key, even a couple of days of uneven Co2 levels and the stuff will show up. SAE's will help keep it at bay too, but the Co2 is better.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Oh dear is there no peace to be had ? --- NO, NO, and NO

What color is it ? --- Black

What plants ? --- Sags and Vals, in particular; also on the Anubias Barteri

BBA can vary quite a bit in appearance --- This one here is up to maybe 1.5 inches long

it thrives on unstable swinging Co2 levels --- Still working out the kinks of the CO2 System, although I think I can call it most stable. Chuck Gadd is the one who blames Phosphates for BBA.

SAE's will help keep it at bay too, but the Co2 is better --- Agree, in particular because I cannot get my hands on a “True” SAE anyway.

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 17-Oct-2005 09:18

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Not much has happened during the day today, at least not tank-wise.

I had to take out more plants on the right hand side front section as the Water Sprite really must have taken all the light away from it. The bottom of the Narrow Leaf Ludwigia was rotting away. Too bad, but fortunately I still have some left in other spots in the tank.

I was finally able to capture some of my fry (in case you didn’t believe me ) on camera, but the quality is not too great. Both fry shown in the pictures below are about 3mm long and, at least when looking into the tank directly and not at a picture, I can begin so see a tiny orange spot on them.

Here is the first pic, fry is in the middle of it.

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Here is one taken with flash, again, sorry about the bad quality.

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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If it's black then it's definately BBA.The plants you listed would definately be candidates for BBA on their older leaves, it rarely settles on fast growing stems.

The Co2 will definately keep new stuff away, won't do much for the stuff that's already there though. The existing stuff can be got off the Anubias with a bleach treatment, but the vals and sags won't take this treatment well.

Get rid of whatever you can by trimming or bleaching, keep the Co2 constantly in the 30ppm range and you have it licked.

Chick's site is a bit outdated by the way. We now know that Co2 and carbonates are the factor for BBA rather then phosphates. If it were phosphates it would have shown up when you had 10ppm not now when you have 2 ppm.

Congrats on the fry (maybe you can borrow some of tetras green water to feed them ). I'd definately keep them rather then trade them. Nothing like a big big school of Rasboras.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Bensaf,

Tonight after work I will go and “cut” the older leaves of the vals and sags. Bleaching the Anubias seems to be a problem as they are currently developing a nice root system (they all are placed on the gravel and not on rocks) that burrows deep into the substrate and I am afraid I would greatly disturb the settling process. Also, most of them are surrounded tightly by other plants and their rooting system would be disturb as well.

If I don’t bleach these leaves, will I lose the battle against BBA?

“I'd definitely keep them”

Well, as I said a few pages back, Espei are actually rabbits. If I keep them all then I am very soon overstocked. By now I actually reached the point where I don’t chase adult Espei away anymore when I see them searching for “fry food”. There must be at least 30 in there, all over the place. Tetratech – Wanna have a large school of Espei? For real, they would look very good in a black tank.

Ingo

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LF,

Very tempting offer on the Espei. Right now I have:

7 otos
5 Black Neons
3 Beckford Pencils
3 Rummys (lost 2 in new tank)
2 BN (which I might move, destructive to some plants)
1 Cory (I'll probably take heat for that)
1 Bolivan Ram

I definitely want one very large school, so I probably don't even have that much flexibility anymore if I'm going to do that. One mistake I made on stocking is that the black neons, pencils and yes the otos all have similiar colors. Although I only have 3 pencils and the otos are always hiding. The other day the neons, pencils and otos were following each other around and it looked like one big school.





Last edited by tetratech at 18-Oct-2005 07:56

My Scapes

Interesting that your Otos are always hiding. Mine are usually in the front part of the tank as most of the bigger leaved plants are there. I think you don’t have too many options for them in the front so they will have to circle around your Star Grass and the Wisteria.

With regards to the Espei, you would have to wait a while until they are big enough. I guess in anyway that would be too late for you.

And sure will you take heat for having ONE Cory ]:|

Ingo

EDIT: Just turned Mega - In case the Master cares

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 18-Oct-2005 09:03

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If I don’t bleach these leaves, will I lose the battle against BBA?

No not neccessarily. As I said the Co2 will stop new stuff from growing but your kinda stuck with the old stuff. You can just trim off the affected Anubias leaves. No harm, they'll grow new ones. A lot of people (and I'm one of them) can't bring themselves to trim Anubias. Broke my heart when I had to throw out a bucket of them when I re-did the tank


I forgot to mention earlier watch for the plants growing and shading others and themselves. You'll get a feel for what plants go where to avoid this. Ludwigia can be tricky to get cuttings growing. A relatively high proportion just don't take, the rooted section blackens and melts away. This may account for some of the problems. The MAcrandra definately can't handle any shading even from itself.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

A lot of people (and I'm one of them) can't bring themselves to trim Anubias.

I agree Bensaf...I don't know why that is but I sure can't. I'd just try to trim back the BBA on the leaves. I had a bout with this stuff before I restarted my tank (restarted with good CO2 levels) since then I've never seen it again. or any other algae for that matter, except for a little green spot here and there.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Thanks Bensaf,

If my only options are to choose between bleaching and trimming I will select to trim, although I tend to sympathize with the group that is too weak-hearted to do so.

About the Ludwigia and its tendency to have lower stems blackening – yeah, I saw that on my Repens in the 29G. I just hope that the group on the left (towards the middle) is strong enough to survive for a while longer until I am ready to actually aquascape the tank. The Narrow Leave is a very nice looking plant with a lovely different color than the other plants.

One more question for the advanced (or otherwise experienced) Aquascaper:

My Alternanthera reineckii "roseafolia" is almost reaching the top (is the plant that is half visible in the back of Rock Valley). How do I trim it? I would assume that I just cut it short and that I keep the bottom in and replant the top somewhere else, right?

Ingo

EDIT: Matty, thanks for your input, you always have something good to say.

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

How do I trim it? I would assume that I just cut it short and that I keep the bottom in and replant the top somewhere else, right?

You would want to cut just above a "node"(where the leaves come out of the stem). That way a new stem will generally branch out from there. Just make sure you cut enough off to leave some growing room, and a large enough "top" to plant somewhere else. Once everything settles in you can cut everything "just right" for that perfect picture - then it's back to business as usual.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

LF,

I smell a trade. Some espei for some half blue tuxedo guppies.

Guppy Highlight List

1. Multiple faster than espei :%)
2. Great for cycling (your 10 tanks by years-end)
3. Guppy fry will eat your algae

Here's a pic of the beauts




tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

Thanks again Matty, you really should post more to my thread

tetratech - yeah, I smell a trade too – a bad one that is . No way that I am getting guppies. I already have 2 tanks with platies and although I am not doing anything to help the fry (except having good hiding plants I guess) I have more and more of them.

I agree that they look lovely, but they are not called Million Fish for nothing . But I guess the same name could apply to my Espei as well.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hi,

Little_fish

Are you able to produce a list of what youve bought for your tank to look like that for me please?

Im planning to go through all of this for myself so that would help me out a great deal.

LF,

Just testing ya, I fiqured you will see through my highlight list I bet I can get Bensaf to go for it.

Last edited by tetratech at 18-Oct-2005 11:41

My Scapes

Cols,

I am not quite sure if I understand what you mean?

If it is the tank hardware then look at my profile as all items are listed (same for plants and fish).
If not, feel free to explain, I am more than willing to help you out.


tetratech,



I hope I didn’t fail the test

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Can't figure out how to mark the thread to watch it. Sorry for the pointless post - just "tagging along" so I don't lose the thread in the future.

Enjoyed reading from the start of this!

hope I didn’t fail the test

you passed 'MEGA FISH'

My Scapes

I bet I can get Bensaf to go for it.

Mama bensaf didn't raise no fools. I may be Irish but I ain't thick Not falling for that old Guppy scam. Now that proposition you had about selling me the Brooklyn Bridge that I'm interested in. I'll contact you later about it, I'm a bit busy right now. Got to send an e-mail with my bank account details to this nice Nigerian lawyer who contacted me about a good proposition, I'll tell you later it's a bit hush hush.

Hmph, these young 'uns think they pull the wool over my eyes. Guppies, did ye ever hear the like ..............

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

sorry for not being clear, i meant really a list of all the things youve used like chemicals added and test kits etc.

everything youve needed to get from start to present, if you could do that it would be great.

Funny Funny Bensaf

I see that you haven't lost your sense of humor now that you are one year older.

[hr width='90%']

[font color="#C00000"]H[/font][font color="#000080"]A[/font][font color="#008000"]P[/font][font color="#BF791F"]P[/font][font color="#800080"]Y[/font] [font color="#C00000"]B[/font][font color="#000080"]I[/font][font color="#008000"]R[/font][font color="#BF791F"]T[/font][font color="#800080"]H[/font][font color="#C00000"]D[/font][font color="#000080"]A[/font][font color="#008000"]Y[/font]



[hr width='90%']

I hope you are having fun at the pub.

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 19-Oct-2005 03:41

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

cols,

I got it, so let’s see. Besides the hardware and plants listed in my profile:

- Gravel (about 200 lbs)
- Laterite (3 x 55 ounces bags)
- Rocks (about 80 lbs)
- Thread to tie moss to rocks
- Prime Water Conditioner
- Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Liquid Test Kits (Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, ph, Phosphates, KH, GH)
- Another Test Kit for Iron
- Macro Fertilizer Powder (KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4) and Micro Fertilizer Mix (Plantex + Iron) from Greg Watson
- Baking Soda to raise the KH
- Seachem Equilibrium for micro fertilization elements and to raise the GH
- Measuring spoons from 1 tsp down to 1/32 tsp
- Container to mix fertilizers etc. with tank water
- A small fish net
- Fish Foods (depending on the fish)
- Maracyn to treat Blue Green Algae
- Tweezers for planting
- Scissors for pruning
- Algae pads for glass tanks
- A depleted gift card (hard plastic) to scrape spot algae of the glass
- Various rolls of kitchen paper (cleaning test tubes etc.)
- 3 towels for tank only purposes
- 3 5G buckets for tank only purposes
- 2.5G bucket for tank only purposes
- A Python for water change
- A smaller vacuum for detailed cleaning (sucking)

That should cover it

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thats great thanks.

Ive got most of the actual equipment as such, its more the treatments and test kits etc that i will need to get.

Ive still got to figure out what most of them are used for!

cols,

Glad I could help.

One warning though: If you ready through the discussions in this thread and in [link=tetratechs’ log]http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Planted%20Aquaria/64496.html?200510181628" style="COLOR: #ff6633[/link] then you will see that the usefulness of test kits is heavily debated. One thing I would recommend is not to rely on them but more to support observations made otherwise (usually visuals of tank, plants, and fish).

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

- Gravel (about 200 lbs)
- Laterite (3 x 55 ounces bags)
- Rocks (about 80 lbs)
- Thread to tie moss to rocks
- Prime Water Conditioner
- Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Liquid Test Kits (Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, ph, Phosphates, KH, GH)
- Another Test Kit for Iron
- Macro Fertilizer Powder (KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4) and Micro Fertilizer Mix (Plantex + Iron) from Greg Watson
- Baking Soda to raise the KH
- Seachem Equilibrium for micro fertilization elements and to raise the GH
- Measuring spoons from 1 tsp down to 1/32 tsp
- Container to mix fertilizers etc. with tank water
- A small fish net
- Fish Foods (depending on the fish)
- Maracyn to treat Blue Green Algae
- Tweezers for planting
- Scissors for pruning
- Algae pads for glass tanks
- A depleted gift card (hard plastic) to scrape spot algae of the glass
- Various rolls of kitchen paper (cleaning test tubes etc.)
- 3 towels for tank only purposes
- 3 5G buckets for tank only purposes
- 2.5G bucket for tank only purposes
- A Python for water change
- A smaller vacuum for detailed cleaning (sucking)


Now that's a list, but you forgot:

- EKG
- Aspirin
- Beer

My Scapes

I hope I don’t need to add a divorce layer as well

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks again Matty, you really should post more to my thread

LF- I'm just trying to keep up...it's tiring


Bensaf - Guess I missed the b-day bash.....hope it was a good one!

Last edited by mattyboombatty at 19-Oct-2005 09:52

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Ive always been more of a 'if the fish are healthy and bright then the water must be fine' than one to test with kits.

But saying that, i really dont know much about the chemicals needed and how they effect the water, reading up on those is most certainly needed though.

its just a matter of time to build up the things ineed and the knowledge i need and if i create anything close to the two tanks with logs(not bogwood.....) on here, i will be a very happy guy indeed.

I hope I don’t need to add a divorce layer as well



Make sure you have it in writing that you keep the fish.


cols:
Could you change either your font or background color. I'm an old man and your hurting my eyes.

My Scapes

Now, if I only could figure out how to spell Lawyer

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Groan......hangover alert :%)

Thanks for the birthday wishes.

Good grief Ingo, you forgot to put the kitchen sink on that list, you're taking German efficiency to new heights.

Vorsprung durch technik !

Cols my man please, as tetra said, do something about that font and background, it does real nasty things to a hungover head

I'm going off to get more Alka Seltzer

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Jeez I leave you boys alone for just a couple of days and look what happensif anyone gets to get rid of guppies to Ingo that would be me, yes me I have already caught them, bagged them, and mailed them...Ingo you should have a package at the Post Office tomorrow, marked urgent live plants, make sure you pick it upI'm not responsible for any extras that may arrive if you don't get it soon

Now with that said, Ingo how in the heck am I supposed to beat you to wishing Bensaf a happy birthday? you already beat me to it, I was gonna do it this morning before going to bed, but thought no i'll wait and didn't want to spend too much time here at school, so now i've missed itunless i do it bigger







guess that will do[/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font]

"I've got a great ambition to die of exhaustion rather than boredom." Thomas Carlyle

Heidi,

I hope Bensaf doesn’t see your birthday wishes until his head is not hammering anymore, otherwise it just might explode . And no guppies please, my Platies in the other tanks and the Espei in this one are doing enough damage.

To the tank:

I cut out most of the BBA affected leaves, including 2 on the Anubias . Interestingly most of them are rather close to the CO2 Reactor. Didn’t Bensaf say that it is a lack of CO2 that causes this alga to thrive? I would have expected that it grows in areas that would be far away from the CO2 source, but not in the current right next to the reactor.

Having seen the latest pictures in tetratechs log makes it very hard for me not to meddle with my tank right now (competition ). But seriously, I wonder if it soon will be time to remove some of the Water Sprite and start to work on the more permanent scape that I envision. The last thing I need though would be a reset to the conditions as they were 2 weeks ago. I currently detect almost no new algae growth at all. Be patient, Ingo!

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 20-Oct-2005 10:42

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

What if any style are you gonig to go for with the tank? How do you intend it to look in a couple of months?

I know there are a few different styles of aquascaping i was just wondering which you would go for or if you are just going to go for a tank which suits your tastes.

cols,

I will definitely try to create a style that suits my taste, whatever that may be .

Overall, I think:

I would like to have very tall plants only in the left and right back corners (partially to hide the
hardware).
I would like to expand the area of shorter grass like areas (with Narrow Leave Sags, Dwarf Sags, and Pygmy Chain Swords) to reach the middle area of the tank.
I would like the rock formation that is 2/3 to the right to be the center of attention.
I would like to have a dense Glosso carpet in front of “Rock Valley”.

So, as you can see, there are a lot of things that “I would like” to do, but I guess that this vision is easier thought of than actually created. I guess time will tell what shape this aquascape is taking.

Thanks,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

from what picture that creates in my own mind that sounds great, i like the idea of a glosso carpet somethig one day i would like to try and re-create.

one more question (sorry if i post too many)

If you were to start all over again, would there be anything you would chose to do differently?

cols,

There can’t be too many questions as it shows that people have interest in this thread .

I mentioned somewhere between page 4 and 9 that there is one thing that I would do different. It is the selection of plants that I got from the get-go. I would use almost only weeds (aka Water Sprite) to increase the uptake of nutrients early on. Only the front part of the tank would have been pretty much the same as it is now, with small sags and glosso etc.

One advantage of having my broad assortment of plants is that I can look at them in person, observe how they grow, and make my decisions of which one should go where (and if at all) once I re-arrange the design.

For example, I can already tell that the thinning out of Pygmy Chain Swords is going to be easier than the Dwarf Sags. The latter develop runners under ground (at least in my tank) that create new plants that penetrate the surface somewhere else. If I would go to remove these new plants I would have to be careful not to disturb the substrate too much when trying to separate the runner. The Chain Sword, on the other hand, creates runners on top of the gravel (at least in my 29G as I don’t have runners in this tank yet) and these are easily found and separated.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Having seen the latest pictures in tetratechs log makes it very hard for me not to meddle with my tank right now, competition

The only competition is you and me against the little green guys (algae). And of course one day outdoing Bensaf

My Scapes

Tonight I would like to create a 2-fold entry.

First I will talk a little more about my Espei, because I love them so much .

The fry is really amazing and manifold; I see little ones varying in size from 1 to about 3 inches. The larger ones show (at least when not viewed in pictures) already the orange coloring and a hint of the black triangle. They stay out in the open even when the adults are swimming by, but in general are still close to some cover, just in case .

Here is a shot that circles 2 fry, it gives you an idea of how large they are (by comparison to their surrounding).

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And here is the potential mother of them

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The second part of my entry is called “Snail Patrol”

I would appreciate if you could provide me with info on these guys, also let me know if I identified them correctly. I have at least 3 different kinds of snails, one of which is the Trumpet Snail. I have no picture of this one but it is about 1 inch max in length and has a twisted shell to its side.

For the other two, here are pictures:

Here is a picture of another snail, the Ramshorn:

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:


Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 20-Oct-2005 19:27[/font]

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Another Ramshorn:

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And here is the Common Pond Snail:

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Didn’t Bensaf say that it is a lack of CO2 that causes this alga to thrive?

Not quite. I said inconsistent or unstable Co2 production would cause it to thrive.

Keeping the Co2 consistently in the 30ppm range throughout the photo period will beat it.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Got it Bensaf

The problem is that my CO2 system is still instable. Rarely does the bubble rate stay the same than on the previous day. It always goes down to maybe 2 bps or less, even if I re-adjust it to almost constant flow. ]:|]:|]:|

Anyway, anyone have any info on my snails that he/she thinks would be worthwhile to share?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The problem is that my CO2 system is still instable. Rarely does the bubble rate stay the same than on the previous day. It always goes down to maybe 2 bps or less, even if I re-adjust it to almost constant flow
That shouldn't be happening. Have you called aquariumplants to see if they could help you out. Maybe they know something we don't. Mine does not do that and I keep it at about 5 or 6bps per second, but then again, my diffusion rate isn't as good as yours. I would definitely call AP.com and see what they say.

As far as the snails. As you saw from my 12g pic, I have 2 ramshorns in th tank. I don't think I'm going to be putting them in the 72 because the stargrass leaves are so fragile and because you always have a black leave here or there I think it might be too tempting to the snails.



Last edited by tetratech at 21-Oct-2005 07:10

My Scapes

tetratech,

What is the pressure on your low meter gage?

Mine is at about 2.

For those who don't know, tetratech and I have the same regulator.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

may sound stupid but what does the regulator actually do?

The low pressure gauge is at 20.

My Scapes

cols – as the name implies, it regulates something

Seriously, it regulates how much pressure from the CO2 bottle is permitted to reach a needle valve, which then in turn is used to adjust the bubbles per second (bps) that you would like to inject into the tank (via Reactor). I would suggest you peruse the internet with search terms like “CO2 Regulator Aquarium”, “CO2 System Aquarium”, “Solenoid Aquarium”, and “Reactor Aquarium”. That should give you a load of info on the whole CO2 hardware spiel.

tetratech – Wow, 20, I guess I would have to crank mine up quite a bit. Isn’t 20 the max of the scale?

With regards to your ramshorn info, there are different kinds with different sizes, right?
Also, could you (or anyone) positively identify the above pictured pond snail?

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 21-Oct-2005 09:26

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I'm talking 20 on the inside shaded scale.

Not sure of the snail breed. How 'bout hitchhiker or trojan'

Last edited by tetratech at 21-Oct-2005 09:32

My Scapes

Here's a pic of my too ramshorn in my 12g. I'll probably have a hundred by my next post. I sense another trade....





tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

Gang,

I am creating this post to ask for your opinion regarding replanting. I am planning to take the section of Water Sprite out from the area to the right of “Rock Valley”. Am I risking that the algae will come back because the plant mass shrinks dramatically (although I don’t think it is that much but the plant is a good nutrient sucker)?

In its place I would like to put the very large group of Pennywort that is currently in the middle of the tank. This group is overshadowing my Bacopa and my Narrow Leaf Ludwigia.

So here is the Water Sprite area that I want to change:

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And here is the Pennywort group

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And just for the fun of it, here is “Rock Valley”

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

A look to the left of “Rock Valley”

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The whole tank from the front (bad quality, I know)

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The whole tank from the left

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

So new algae grow is slowing or stopped?

In regards to the water sprite. I would take a good chunk of it and float it. As long as it doesn't block too much light it would suck up nutrients and not be in the way of the rescaping effort.

Is the Rotala Macrandra doing well?, cause I think that looks good were it is and I would move anything else between that and the glosso and just let the glosso work it's way from the base of the Rotala to the front of the tank and let it spread out (simple). Take it one area at a time and see how it looks then take another section.

Last edited by tetratech at 22-Oct-2005 19:16

My Scapes

Gang,

Hm, did I offend you all with something that I wrote or why is nobody (except tetratech once) adding anything? Anyway given that nobody said I should not remove the Water Sprite on the right I went ahead today and did it. It was again a 4 hour re-planting and water change affair.

I took out all the Water Sprite on the right side, added some Pennywort in the corner, added some Rotala Indica in front of it, replanted the Egeria Najas to the back (and cut it as well), added some Narrow Leaf Ludwigia, added some cutting from the Mayaca Fluviatilis, trimmed the Alternanthera reineckii "roseafolia" and planted 3 of its pieces, and finally added some Pygmy Chain Sword from my 29G.

When it was all done I did the water change and left the building. About 3 hours later I saw the most amazing bubbling in the tank so far. During my routine I also removed the sponge filter from the Reactor (which I did last week as well) and cleaned it. When I put it back I didn’t place it in as deep as I usually do (for the ones who know this reactor – the bottom of the sponge rested in the past on top of the 2 pins) but pushed it in just to be flush with the bottom of the tube. Although I have the same bubble rate than I had yesterday (fast, but not continuously running yet) I had the reactor full of bubbles. I have no idea why.

Overall, algae are still there but getting less and less, I saw a green stringy bunch on the reineckii turn black (and as such dead) over night. I gave up on trying to be careful not to vacuum any Espei fry out, there are simply too many.

So here are quite a few pictures to illustrate the words above. Please be so kind and comment .
I also have a question regarding a plant identification (see last picture).

Beginning with the total tank review (setup, week 2, and today - week 4)

Setup

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Week 2

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Week 4 (today)

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Another view from today

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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The new right tank section

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Another view of the right tank section

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Mayaca Fluviatilis bubbling

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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The Reactor “Loaded”

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Does anyone know what plant this is (maybe Alternanthera reineckii "roseafolia" as well, but it looks different that the other one I have)?

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hi Ingo,

I like the new, cleaner look. Is that still water sprite just to the left of rock valley? Or is it wisteria? (hard to see with the flash.) I'm not a big fan of plants that will grow too bushy quickly (e.g. wisteria) as it's such a pain to trim them once they get out of hand and they never end up looking as good. Of course that's just personal preference. Anyways, nice job on the pruning exercise! You must be wiped after that.

-P

LF,
I wouldn't worry that it was anything you said, I can't tell you the number of times I made a joke or said something and no one has gotten back to me. Don't take it personally, people are busy, etc. Sometimes I have to sneak onto my computer to put up a post, because my wife thinks I'm nuts

Anyone I attached a pic of your layout with a red line. If you want opinions I'll give you mine, but it's only what I see and doesn't mean it's correct or what you want, but is that opening between the rocks with the rotala in the back your focal point. If yes, then I think all the other plants must descend down in height from the two rocks down into the corners. If you put the tall plants in the corners (which is a first reaction) I think it draws away from the focal point (the two rocks). Again just my opinion.



tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

Or you could have a curtain affect in the back. That is one tall species going all the way across the back. That way you have plants, but because it's all the same plant it doesn't distract from the focal point and leave the varitey of species shorter and in front of the tallest rock.


My Scapes

LF if I knew what water sprite was I would have told you where to put it

I just love your tank. I think it looks great and I know I know nothing about plants, although thanks to you that is sort of changing!

I like the recent pics, the tank looks alot more "organised" if you see what I mean?

Am so glad the algae has gone - by the looks of the pics.

GFG

Last edited by goldfishgeek at 23-Oct-2005 19:30

_______________________________________
Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey S. Firestone

Now that we're done with the algae, it's down to the nitty gritty - aquascaping.

Now the real work begins.

The plants are real healthy but there's no real flow. At the moment it looks like a haphazard mixture of plants. The water sprite is too strong and dense and the more intersting plants are too few and too small in comparison and as a result are completely overshadowed. The other plants need to make more of a "statement" to stand out from the WS.

For the sake of your sanity I think you are going to need more non stem plants in there. Consider Swords, Crypts and Grassy plants.

Tetras suggestion is great but may be difficult to achieve without just the right plants. Another options is the flip side of the same coin. If the focal point is to be the rock bridge you can try a concave design, tall on either side sloping down to the rocks. Probably not as attractive as tetras suggestion but less work.

More variance of leaf shape and size. Some more interesting grassy plants. The corkscrew val is probably not enough to make much of an impression. Something like Val. Nana/Val. Natans or Cyperus Helfiri. Much taller but very fine leaves so they won't overshadow anything. Tall crypts like Balansae and Spiralis again have the height but are very graceful.

Swords or Apons would give an added shape and texture. For swords you can use the smaller or narrow leafed types. Uruguaysis (I probably make a complete hash of that spelling) Narrow Leaf Rubin, there's quite a few to choose from. Apons are good, Capuroni is a really beauty, nice height, interesting color and texture. Criniums are good, real easy, interesting looking.

Crypts, Blyxa Japonica for a mid section. Specimen Anubias for a mid ground splash.

Try some bigger bolder stem plants to work with and contrast to the finer leaved stems. Big ones like Hygro Corymbosa, Hygro. Augustifolia, Limnophilia Aromatica, Ammania Gracillis, more Reineckii (yes that's what's in the photo, just the leaves are a little funnily shaped on that one). Big bold groups of these at the back with the smaller finer leaved stems at the front show each off better.

Tighten everything up. Keep the different types of stem together. Don't have a bit of one stem here, and another bit of the same plant there, keep them grouped together or just one highlighting/contrasting species in the middle. This kind of grouping works very well on long low tanks.

What ? You still reading this ? Get to work on that tank !

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

upikabu –

I actually don’t use a flash on the pictures; it is the reflection of the light on the plant leaves that make it so bright . Yes, there is still quite a bit of Water Sprite left in the tank (all the way on the left and to the left of the rock arrangement) and Wisteria is in there as well.

I agree that they are hard to maintain, but their purpose was (is) to suck up nutrients and to give the plants a head start over the algae. That’s also the reason I refer to them as weeds . I only removed half of it so that the tank as a whole doesn’t go through a dramatic change. The rest will follow in the upcoming week(s).

tetratech –

My wife doesn’t think I am nuts, she knows it for fact

I sure do want to have your design opinion (but I will not add black substrate ). I hear what you say and I have thought about this as well. The only problem that I see with your vision is that I would have only a few plants left (all ground cover guys) and a lot of empty open space (plus hardware fully visible). To avoid this problem I thought I might go with high ends and then fall off, like you can see in the attached pic.

The curtain scenario is not my favorite as it tends to make the tank look like a rectangular box.

goldfishgeek –

Thanks for the compliments, I appreciate your input. I know I still have ways to go but I enjoy this phase very much as the road to success is at least as exciting as the success itself.

Bensaf –

You are right, at the moment it is a haphazard mix of plants. As explained above, the remaining Water Sprite will be removed slowly in phases. All replanting so far had 3 purposes (list)

1) Getting an idea of what might look good where, but more from a shape rather than a particular plant and position.
2) Saving plants that might stay in the tank in the long run and throwing out sure dislikes.
3) Slowly transferring from a nutrient sucker to a planted tank.

I am so glad that you gave me this list of non-stem plants as I was just waiting for the right time to ask about them. I will take my time and look into each one of them (also their availability).

About getting back to work on the tank – the wife is really getting mad as their was not one weekend out of the last 4 where I didn’t work on my tanks (water change and pruning on the 20G and 29G as well) for at least 6 hours total. Plus all the time I spend just staring at them.

All -

Anyone have any idea of why my Reactor is going mad? Uh, almost forgot – My reactor became a venturi reactor by accident. The tube has a tiny leak on top where the curved inset is fused to the pipe. This concludes in tiny CO2 bubbles escaping on top of the Reactor and most are immediately pulled back in via the Rio pump.

Thanks a lot to all of you,

Ingo

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:


Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 24-Oct-2005 09:12[/font]

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The equipment definitely has an influence on aquascaping.
Right now I have a black stealth vis-therm heater so with my black background you don't see it). I'm shopping for a black eheim/compatible return tube to replace my current green one. So the only thing left is the diffusor/reactor and that can obviously be done externally. I'm currently using black stealth tubing so you don't see that either.

Anyway getting back to your tank. If you end up doing your decision IMO you need to keep the corners fairly green (different shapes, but fairly even in color and than have most of the color appear in that rock area. That will still keep the main focal point clear. You clearly have a focal point in the tank, unless you change that.

My Scapes

tetratech,

I drew another line into the picture to help with the understanding of how I envision the plant arrangements.

This line is the border of low plants to middle/tall plants. The higher the line gets the deeper into the tank I imagine low plants to grow. Does that make any sense :%)?

As you can see, towards the left side would be an area where the tall plants (yellow line) cut off and only low plants remain and then a slope would be formed by middle sized plants towards the focus point.

What do you think?

Ingo

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Oh, here is the Picture, duh...

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Not much is there to write about my tank today.

One thing would be that the number of Espei fry I have begins to worry me. They like to hang out most in the new low plant area to the right of the rock formation and there are so many of them that it is impossible to count them. They are of all ages, between 3 weeks and just a few days. There seems to be a major production machine in the tank . I only hope that this will lessen a little once the breeding leaves are lessened in numbers. I already wonder how I ever will be able to catch these buggers once they are large enough to be traded at the LFS (they say I would need to give them about 30 to make it worth while, they would give me credit of about $1 per fish).

EDIT: Besides the above mentioned area, there are at least another 10 to 20 spread out throughout the tank.

Another thing is that my Reactor is still going crazy. I have no idea why there are all of a sudden so many bubbles in it. I checked the tubing and cannot find a leak. Over night the tube is full of water which would have leaked out. Can I be that the lower position of the filter pad (flush with the reactor’s bottom) makes such a difference?

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 25-Oct-2005 09:19

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Hey LF,

Why don't you just let big school of the espei develop. What your tank you could easily hold 50 to 60 and it would look really great.

Can't help you with the reactor since I haven't used one yet. I'm still deciding on what reactor/diffisor I want to use when I replace the hagen ladder.

BTW- On your previous post. I think that's a good idea the way you laid it out with the second line for the shorter plants. I usually like to make a small change take a look at the tank and then adjust from there. Is way it's not overwhelming. Also from the pic your xmas moss looks good.






Last edited by tetratech at 25-Oct-2005 19:14

My Scapes

tetratech,

Thanks for the comment on the layout, I agree that small changes at a time will give me (us) a better idea of where a design is heading. About the large school, no doubt does it look striking, as can be seen in all the Harlequin Rasbora landscapes from Amano. But I am still just a fish beginner and as such tend towards having more of a variety rather then a single species 125G tank.

All,

Well, not a good day yesterday (guess I need them once in a while so I can whine a little). I have my first death in the tank, an Oto caved in. I hope it was one of the new ones that I just recently acquired as I was not giving them a high survival rate to begin with (just been shipped to the LFS and young).

Also, the brown slime (diatoms) is coming back. I attribute this to my messing around in the tank last weekend when I took out so much weed that I for sure must have raised a lot of gunk (and with it silica) into the water column. Unfortunately, any little string of algae in the tank is now magnified as the slime attaches to it, including the moss that just started to look better. Maybe I do a little water change tonight and suck out as much of it as I can get (around 20 to 25 G of water).

I also turned off the power head in the front right corner; I think I have enough current in the tank without it now that the plants are shorter.

Thanks,

Ingo

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LF,
You have a 125g tank. It's like a block long, you could easily have 40 of those espei in there and have plenty of room for some other nice fish and smaller schools. Besides it seems like you have free supply as well and sell of the extras to the LFS.

Otos
It's very hard to account for otos, once you acquire a certain number. I'm amazed you found the dead one in that tank. I have seven, but the most I've ever been able to count was 6 at one time.

Slime
Want me to send you a willow branch? Rooted and budding

My Scapes

Want me to send you a willow branch?

Nah, I will try first the German Oak Tree that is growing in our backyard .

The older fry (about 3 weeks I guess) are now swimming in the open but have not yet started to school with the grownups. This weekend I will try to get a photo where you can actually see them. I agree that 40 of them would be a great school, but I am almost afraid that there are way more. I also cannot be sure that the LFS will take them, especially if I arrive each week with another 30 .

I have just recently (maybe 3 months ago) started to have Otos and my losses overall are at about 50%. I read that this is quite common but any fish loss is hurting, even more so the first in a particular tank. The one that hurt me most so far is the loss of my pair of German Rams even before they had a chance to get into the large tank.

Ingo

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Interesting story, I was in Aquarium adventure last week and some women was buying a german ram, I usually don't say anything, but when the owner (I think) of the store walked away, I said to her those fish are very difficult to take care of, so we started talking and she was putting it in a 6gallon tank with some other fish and I was telling her they don't do good with any kind of stress whether it be water quality, other fish, temp change, etc. and then the fish store owner walked over and we were still talking. The fish store owner than went on to debate me on the hardiness of german rams and I didn't really want to get into, but I went on to say from my experience they are a difficult fish to keep. I think the guy was pissed at me, but I went on to say that the store has great fish and I buy here all the time, just not the rams.

BTW - The bolivian ram is really a great fish and I think you would enjoy one or more in your tank. My bolivian survived my "White Cloud" being switched between several different tanks before he landed in my 72. He is a great fish and I'm thinking about getting more. You could also go with a Keyhole Cichlid. I saw some young ones at Aquarium Adventure. They also had a Chocolate Cichlid, but I believe those might be more agressive.

Last edited by tetratech at 27-Oct-2005 08:29

My Scapes

tetratech,

You are right on all points. I was/am considering Bolivians myself but given that I am German the German Ram gets preference (I know it is not a native fish to Germany). One thing that makes me a little worried about the Bolivian is that it is, based on its larger size, a bigger aquascaper than the German. This will probably not be a problem if you have only one as no pre-breeding ritual might kick in, but if you have a pair it could become an issue (Untitled experienced this himself).

I also once sent an entire family home for additional homework. They were about to purchase a 20G at the LFS but had no clue and they were in the middle of being steamrolled by the sales guy (no offense to all LFS employees here at FP, I know that you would not do that). I can tell you that the sales guy didn’t like it. One thing I have not yet got myself ready to argue about is the tank of painted tetras, but I am sure that I will say something eventually.

Ingo

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Well, I'm of Russian decendent, don't think there's too many tropical fish from that region.

Bensaf has two bolivians but he might have too males. I believe they aren't that difficult to sex.

My one bolivan did dig a little trench for himself under a small piece of driftwood, but he hasn't damaged anything and never bothers anyone. They only go to about 5" in your tank it will still look small.

AA also had some of those red zebra danios for sale, like $5 a piece of a danio, but I guess certain beginners and kids are attracted to these fish.

My Scapes

One thing that makes me a little worried about the Bolivian is that it is, based on its larger size, a bigger aquascaper than the German. This will probably not be a problem if you have only one as no pre-breeding ritual might kick in, but if you have a pair it could become an issue (Untitled experienced this himself).

Ingo: I have a breeding pair of Bolivian Rams (already bred twice in the last 2 months) and they never did any damage to the plants or mess the aquascape, even when they were making multiple depressions on the sand (among the forest of chain swords) to move the wrigglers around. They do munch on the sand, but never uproot any plant in the process. Then again, maybe I just have a neat pair.

-P

upikabu,

maybe I just have a neat pair

Or maybe Untitled No4 has just a very messy one .

Thanks for the info, it will help me when the time is right to add any Ram to the tank. This though will not happen for quite a while as I want the home to be nicely settled when they move in.

At the moment it doesn’t look like I am winning my algae battle. The dark string (assuming BBA) are covering most of the small plants on the foreground and the edges of the anubias and a few other plants. I haven’t dosed Phosphor in about 3 weeks now and had the values down to maybe 1ppm by last weeks end. I wonder if that actually helped the BBA while it slowed down other types of algae? So last night I added a shot of Phosphor and I will see if it has any effect.

All I know for sure is that this coming Sunday I will have to spend quite some time “cleaning” this mess up. The wife will be so pleased]:|.

Ingo


Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 28-Oct-2005 03:54

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Gang,

The impression of my tank tonight can be described with one word:

DISGUSTING

I can’t believe that all the brown slime is returning and attaches itself to the continuously growing BBA algae, it that’s what it is.

If it wouldn’t be for all the nice Espei fry I would tear that whole thing down and start anew. Something has to happen.

I know I might be over critical and it really doesn’t show that well on pictures, but I will try to show you what I mean. Here is the whole tank.

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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A close-up from the top of the rocks

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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One from the sags and swords, you can see that the whole area in between is covered

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Xmas moss on the rock

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On a better note, an Espei fry swimming in the open

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Same fry, just closer. You can clearly see the black spot and what appears to be a more yellow than orange body coloration.

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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