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Disco lights - cool

I have actually one of those on my light right in the middle, but it gets covered by the center support on the tank.

I think those work well for coral and other saltwater animals.

My Scapes

Not too much has happened since my last entry as I had to do a water change in my 20G because I started treating it for BGA (with Maracyn sp?).

Then I went to the LFS and got a few smaller stems of Wisteria and a long rope of Ceratophylum demersum (Hornwort). Once home I planted them quickly and then the tank lights went out, so no pictures for today as the plants and fish need their disco night to start .

Hey tetratech - these lights don’t work anywhere for anything. They are just an extra gimmick and are supposed to give the viewer the option to see night active fish by mimicking the moon light (I have 6 moons shining in my tank ).

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Actually,

I have a picture for tonight - I call it Disco Inferno

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Porkchop = lambchop I'm sure

That is a sweet pic LF, I'll definitely upgrade to those for my new reef tank.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

An addition to last night’s activities:

I added the third dose of macros and finally received my Seachem Equilibrium. I dosed 1/2 tsp, man this stuff is hard to dissolve .
The Vals are continuing to get thinner and thinner, I am not sure if I like the look of disintegrating plants in my tank. If this is how they look for good then I am sure I will not hang on to them for too long.

Today I will add the third load of micros and I think I will skip tomorrows macros as I will do a water change (50%, right Bensaf? ) the following day. This way macros and micros have been fed 3 times each and should be in balance. Sounds like a good plan for the long run as well – feed micros and macros from Sunday to Friday and have Saturday as a rest day.

Ingo

Edit: The Espei really enjoy their new home. They changed their patrol route from the front of the tank to the back, where they have fun fighting the current generated by the spraybar. It is fun to see how they swim through the 2 suction cups of the Power Reactor, all coming together to squeeze through that narrow area.

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 30-Sep-2005 08:08

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

Arent' Vals like Swords in that the original leaves usually die off when they are moved from the supplier to you. Someone stop me if I'm wrong, but if there getting thinner and going to pollute you tank why not just trim off all of the original leaves and see what new growth you get. With you conditions I bet they come right back.

My Scapes

Ok, I barely understand any of the technical talk but I think the tank looks fantastic and I have "moonlight" on my thirty five and it looks very good, I love watching the pleco doing his thing and the other fish asleep in their particular spots.

one day I will have a 125G.

GFG



Last edited by goldfishgeek at 30-Sep-2005 15:21

_______________________________________
Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey S. Firestone

By the way Ingo, how do you like the combination of 5000K and 6700K tubes?

I actually have my 5000K on first as that colour is supposed to be better for the plants (and is also dimmer, giving a illusion -- at least to me -- of morning and evening) and then the 6700K later, and the off first.

Not that I think this is a make or break issue, just my preference...

Sorry, I haven't been feeling well so I haven't been posting much.....

Everything is looking good but I think you need to toss the kits. Really. If your plants are looking pretty good and your fish are healthy, who cares what some test kit believes your NO3 to be in ppm. Even if the kit is totally off and it's 40 ppm it's not going to hurt anything. You will, on the other hand, have problems if you don't dose enough KNO3. Forget about it.

IMO you're worrying too much. You should enjoy this part, just follow what you're supposed to be doing on autopilot, sit back and watch your plants grow. The hard stuff is done.

Sounds like a good plan for the long run as well – feed micros and macros from Sunday to Friday and have Saturday as a rest day.

Exactly the way I do it. For rest day read beer day

Don't woory about the old leaves on the vals, is there any new growth ? If there is it's fine and the new growth will come out looking better then the old. When I plant Vals I see quite a lot of the old leaves fade away but replaced by new thinner, longer, brighter green leaves.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Goldfishgeek – Thank you for the complement. And don’t worry about the “not understanding” of the technical part as we all just pretend that we understand it .

Untitled – I like the color combination of 5,000 and 6,700, I balances pretty nicely. Although I haven’t played with a 10,000 instead of the 5,000 yet. I somehow thought that the best light for plants would be around 6,500 and that’s the reason why I turn on the 6,700 on first.

Tryst – “If your plants are looking pretty good…” – Herein lies the problem. How do you define good? Is the growth of strands of algae on the Water Sprite good? How about melting crypts and vals? How about various leaves of other plants that are covered with short hairy algae? Sure, my tank is not covered in algae and I see some nice bubbling when I come how from work, but I would like to avoid a problem before it happens. Just think of this tank as being my first child – and I am the father who is extra cautious and interprets even the slightest cough as something serious .

Bensaf – Thanks for the info on the Vals, I will check for new growth AFTER I have my beer – As it is Saturday .

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 01-Oct-2005 05:54

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Just think of this tank as being my first child – and I am the father who is extra cautious and interprets even the slightest cough as something serious

Ingo. But you can replace your plants if you don't like them.

-P

Ingo,

Now, there might be a dispute regarding what is the best K temp. for plants. According to the my modest research and my experience the 5000K is slightly better, but as I said it's a make or break issue. You can also start with a combination of both and turn the rest on later. Never had 10,000K so don't ask me about that.

The other thing you have to remember is that this is a new tank with new plants which didn't have the time to establish themselves yet. Once it's established I don't think you will have any problems but it will be, as Trystianity said, an auto-pilot kind of thing. A little algae doesn't bother me at all when and if I do get some, I just consider it as food for the shrimps and otos. When I do have some it is usually a very small amount and it disappears without me having to fuss about it. I think that fussing and trying to correct may cause more damage than it would help.

In any case, most of us have been there, worrying and constantly checking for the slightest possibility of something going wrong. Then we see that for the most part things are okay and we feel that we don't need to fuss so much anymore, and we also get a bit tired fussing with everything all time (or is it just me?). Again, now when I see algae I just ignore it, knowing it won't be there next week. My point is that it's okay to fuss a bit and worry, as long as it doesn't get you too mental.

I also think it's time for another full shot of the tank so we can see how things have progressed and compliment you about how it looks. So far, well done!

So, here it is – the first week summary update.

I have been away for the last 2 days and could not provide any live feed to you, but when I came back I recognized visible growth in the tank (for the first time). Besides the plant growth, I also have now every algae under the sun, BGA, hair, string, spot – you name it I got it . But I have faith and will wait and see.

Sadly, my German Rams (had not been added to the 125 yet) didn’t make it through the weekend, I have no idea why. [link=Here]http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Cichlid%20Central/64566.html?7168651E-04" style="COLOR: #ff6633[/link] is the post about them.

Otherwise, I made my water change (yes Bensaf, 50% as instructed), added my macros, added 2tsp of Baking Soda, and 1/2tsp of Seachem Equilibrium. Given my beautiful algae, I dared to add 4 Otos to the tank that I had in my 20G. I also cut 3 stems of Ambulia from that tank and added them as well.

The following are a few pics of the tank, remember to keep in mind that I added a few plants since the first tank picture was taken a week ago.

First, the Mayaca Fluviatilis:

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Now, the tank a week ago when it was set up:

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And here today, after one week:

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Wow your tank really looks great! About your "disco lights" where did you get the blue nocturnal lights? and how much were they? I think they would really look nice in my tank once I have it set up

Very nice tank. I enjoyed reading it's "life story"

What type of gravel is it?

Nice, starting to look nice and full! I bet that algae will be disappearing soon with all that plant growth.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Gang,

Thanks for the comments, I really appreciate it.

uniqueyat – the LEDs have been part of my lighting system, means they are build into the strip light. I think to remember that you can also buy kits with only these LEDs, just peruse the web and you will find them.

djtj – the gravel is called “Deep River” something. It is actually darker than the pictures might make you believe, most stones are dark gray or a darker brown, but some light stones can be found as well. It is natural gravel as I don’t like the artificially colored kind.

Matty – I don’t think you should retire your log, I am sure that there are more things to happen. I think I never added a comment to it as I never felt qualified to do so.

Thanks again,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Tank is definitely looking more lush.

LF,
Did you ever do the multiple no3 test?

Water Change.
When you do the 50% wc with the python, are you adding the dechlorinater to the tank as you fill it and are you dosing on the tank volume or the wc volume?
BTW - I've decided to do 2 water changes a week, until the tank stablizes.

My Scapes

LF - Nobody seems interested in it (besides you I guess) anymore. I'm glad at least one person was still interested in the log. I'm the only one who has posted on that thread since august, and I've been spending more time on my salt tank anyways (maybe I should write up a log over in the marine section).

And one does not have to be "qualified" to post on my thread. If you've read through it there have been many beginners(though I wouldn't call you a beginner) or whatever asking questions about my setup. I appreciate comments from anybody. But as I stated in the first few posts, I'd only keep it up as long as there is interest.

Last edited by mattyboombatty at 03-Oct-2005 10:18

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Matty,

Can you link me to your log, for some reason I can't find it. I'm really bad looking for stuff, I usually look at what's active and try to comment when I can. - Thanks!



My Scapes

Here is Matty's beautiful log.

Matty - I don't know why your pictures are not showing on the early pages, did you remove them from your "photo bucket"?
With regards to adding comments to your thread, you have to remember that you started your log about 2 months before I got my very first tank and an additional 2 months until I joined FP. I AM A BEGINNER when one counts the years of experience as an indicator (and I certainly still make beginner mistakes).

I would say that FP should consider the creation of a file system that allows these logs to stay visible for an indefinite time period so that newer hobbyists have the chance to skim through them.

tetratech - No, I haven't done the multiple NO3 test yet as I have to carefully balance my time between the tanks and my duties as a father and husband. I am already stretching my wife's patience with all the planting, fertilizing, water changes, moving fish from here to there, trips to the LFS, etc. You know how it is . But I will try to do that soon.
Yeah, before I refill the tank I fill the cap of the Prime Canister (2 liters) half way (should be about 5ml) and while I add the water I pour it in the water stream in maybe 5 small doses. That's it.

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 03-Oct-2005 12:24

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

Thanks for the link. I actually did participate in Matty's log back in Feb'05. I didn't realize it was that one.

BTW - Does your water appear clearer in the morning than it does by the end of day. My tank is starting to look hazy by late afternoon?

Last edited by tetratech at 03-Oct-2005 16:48

My Scapes

First to answer tetratech’s question: I haven’t seen my tank in the morning ever since the day I started it. I am always either at work or I was away (last weekend).

Now to some questions that I hope someone can answer:

- How do I manage to dissolve the dry fertilizers before I add them to the water? In particular the Plantex (1/2 tsp) and the Seachem Equilibrium (1/2 tsp) give me trouble. I mix them up with 2 cups of tank water and stir like crazy; I even repeat the procedure after pouring about 4/5th into the tank by refilling to cup and stirring again. It does not dissolve for the life of it. They always create individual grains that first float in the tank and then collect on the gravel and the leaves.

- I am getting more and more algae. Still no reason to worry? The Water Sprite is growing like mad and a few other plants (for example Egeria Najas) are growing good as well.

- I was considering of adding a school of either Black Neons or Glow Light Tetras to the tank. I read today that they are more sensitive to the water chemistry than Cardinals and also require a dimmed tank to show themselves from their best side (and in the open). I also read that Rummynoses (another school I would like to add) are even more delicate. True?

- Should I add first another set of Otos? Other suggestions (remember – little fish)?

Thanks in advance,

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 03-Oct-2005 19:17

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

First to answer tetratech’s question: I haven’t seen my tank in the morning ever since the day I started it. I am always either at work or I was away (last weekend).

So I guess that's a no to "does your tank look hazy/slightly cloudy by days end" This was happening to my old 46 as well and I never figured it out. I wonder if it has something to do with high co2 levels and low ph by end of day. If anybody else knows or has this experience please chime in.


Dry Ferts
I don't use plantex or the Seachem equil so I'm not sure, but I am doing the same thing you are to dissolve my so4, po4 and no3.

Tetra sensitiviy
I haven't met to many fish that are more sensitive than cardinals to water. I will not attempt to put cardinals into my tank for at least 4 months, probably longer.
I wasn't aware that black neons were sensitive, I was also considering these fish. I already have a school of rummynoses in my tank and so far they are doing fine. I've had good luck with rummys, but maybe my water just agrees with them.






Last edited by tetratech at 03-Oct-2005 19:30

My Scapes

LF with the ferts you should dissolve them in a larger amount of water first, then add that water to your tank. The only dry ferts I have used is KNO3. This readily dissolved in 2 Liters of water to make 1mL = .25 ppm in my tank. You should have them stored in a dark cool place.


I think you should expect troubles while your tank "cycles" this is a real unstable period and you really have to wait it out. You may not find any ammonia or nitrIte, but things are still going to be a bit trying. In a couple weeks I would expect that your algae troubles will cease to be. I was lucky enough to start with a cycled filter and what not.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Oh, I'dd add rummynose for sure if your tank chemistry is stable. A good 20-30 would be a great school for a tank that size. And tetras aren't all that sensitive, a well planted community will be perfect for them. I keep cardinals, and don't do anything special for them - save for some baby brine from work every now and then(which I wouldn't do if didn't have such easy access to it), they also take frozen brine and flake too. Pretty easy critters if you ask me.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

I think you should expect troubles while your tank "cycles" this is a real unstable period and you really have to wait it out. You may not find any ammonia or nitrIte, but things are still going to be a bit trying. In a couple weeks I would expect that your algae troubles will cease to be. I was lucky enough to start with a cycled filter and what not.

I definitely agree with this and that's another reason I wouldn't put any sensitive fish in the tank yet. My readings of nh3 are about 0.25 and I'm sure at this point nitrate are being produced, plus we are adding nitrates. Definitely see the benefits of adding "weeds" and then removing.

Even if your conditions are good, remember change kills fish. So if the fish are going from a non-co2, higher ph, etc. tank they should really be acclimated over a long period of time to your tank (2hrs +).

My experience with cardinals is not the same as Mattys. I did keep a successful school for 18 months without losing any, but they have never done well in an immature tank. If you are going to get cardinals I would find out the water parameters at the store. If it's far off from your tank I would move on to the rummys.

Last edited by tetratech at 04-Oct-2005 05:18

My Scapes

LF,

I don't think we talked about filter media. What are you using in your tank. We both have eheim filters, I think you have the 2028. Are you using the mech, coarse and fine pads. Also did you start you tank with carbon? What is your maintenance schedule going to be?

My Scapes

tetratech,

You are right, I have the 2028 from Eheim.

In the filter, I have 1 liter of Ehfimech in the bottom container that is topped off with the coarse pad (blue) and the next two containers upwards contain 4 liters of Ehfisubstrat topped off with the fine pad (white).

About the maintenance routine, I don’t have one yet .

I would assume that the ball that is floating in the connector section between the filter and the tubing (aka visual flow meter) will show me when the pump is not working at its full capacity and then I would maintain the filter. I will then have to open the filter, remove all the content, rinse it in tank water, put everything back into the filter, close it, and prime it.

I don’t use activated carbon on my tanks anymore. I know it makes the water cleaner but it also (at least that is the word on the street) binds fertilizer elements. The only time I would use it is to remove meds from a tank.

Matty and tetratech – thanks for the comments regarding my questions.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF - consider running carbon every now and again. Not full time, but say for a week every 3 months. Carbon can take out all sorts of nasties and can really polish the water. This can be good for any sensitive fish you are thinking about getting. The plants won't mind a week without ferts once they are well established as they store up nutrients.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

The only reason I asked about AC is for the startup. I don't use AC either, except for med removal, but I believe it might have it's uses at startup before the bacterial colony is established.

My Scapes

Gang,

After removing some of the strains of algae from the tank by hand tonight, I decided it is time to check some parameters. I know, I am using the useless test kits, but how else can I check? Like are the plants growing – yes, are all other things in sink – no, I have too much algae of all kinds.

So here are my values:

ph – 6.9 (I haven’t had a steady bubble count over the course of 2 days except once last week)
KH – about 4.5 dH
GH – about 5.5 dH
Nitrate – maybe between 20ppm and 30ppm
Iron – maybe 0.1 (first time I used this kit)
And here it comes: Phosphates – a whopping 5ppm to 10ppm (more towards the 10 color than the 5)

Could it be that the phosphates cause all the algae? Shouldn’t it be maybe up to 2ppm?

Here is my feeding plan again:

KNO3 – 1.25tsp 3x per week
KH2PO4 – 0.25tsp 3x per week
K2SO4 – 0.5tsp 3x per week
Plantex – 0.5tsp 3x per week
Seachem Equilibrium – 0.5tsp 1x per week

Any thoughts or ideas?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I just did another Phosphate test, this time on my tab water. It comes out with a color of at least 2ppm, maybe even a little more (darker).

Thanks,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

based on your numbers, light, co2 the plants aren't taking up enough nutrients. I'm getting high readings as well on most parameters and my water is starting to get cloudy. I'm vexed, terribly vexed by the cloudiness. By this time in your tank, your probably getting add'l no3 from the cycling. I'm a little concerned maybe the EI method is too agressive based on your plant mass and especially mine. Why else would all your readings be that high. I read that Amano does multiple water changes during the first week or so, to control algae, etc. Have you checked nh3 levels as well. If the tank didn't cycle or went through a mini one the nh3 should be about zero. MY nh3 readings are somewhere between .25 and .50 and this after a water change 2 days ago.

BTW - Remember all of the algae problems I had in my 46 when the po4 levels were through the roof.

Last edited by tetratech at 04-Oct-2005 20:01

My Scapes

I see a few tweaks that could be made to your dosing. I don't think you got those numbers from me ?

Your phospate dosing is a little on the high side. 1/4 tspn is adding almost 2ppm a shot. Cut down to about 1/8 teaspoon which will give you about 1ppm a shot should be enough.

Cut the Kno3 to 1 tspn which will give about 7ppm a shot, again this should be fine.

Way too much Potassium. Your are adding K with every dose of No3 and Po4, the Equilibrium is quite high in K also. On top of that you are adding K2SO4 3 times a week. Overkill. It's probably not harming anything but if you don't need that much why add it. I'd eliminate the K2SO4 altogether or at least reduce to just onne dose at WC.

Co2 is still too low. Try to keep pH in the 6.6 to 6.8 range. If the needle valve is still causing problems set the bubble count a little high so if it falls back you still stay in a good range. I've got similar KH and push the pH to 6.6 comstantly with no effect on fish. This will speed up the nutrient uptake greatly.

You can do a big water change to reset. Try the dosing above. When the plant bio mass has really increased you can go back to original dosing if needed. You'll find uptake will increase dramatically as plants bio mass increases, also as they grow and get closer to the light photosynthesis will be stronger = more uptake.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Thanks Bensaf,

The phosphate levels make perfect sense to me now.

A quarter of a teaspoon of KH2PO4 raises the phosphate by 1.7ppm; my tab has about 2ppm. In the first week I filled the tank and added 3 doses of it, means 7.1ppm overall. Then I did a 50% water change which should bring me to about 2.8ppm. And this week I added another 2 doses, so together it should be around 6ppm and that is about what I measured last night (not considering any uptakes from the plants and test kit color issues).

I would even go so far as to cut out the addition of KH2PO4 to the macro nutrients all together for a while until the level of phosphate is low enough. I might never have to add any if my tab water analysis is correct.

About the needle valve – it just drives me nuts. I come home at night to see it bubble at about 1.5bps. So I turn it up and the next position is a stream of CO2. So I turn it down again until it stays at about 3.5bps. The next day the game repeats itself. I already adjusted my low pressure valve to constantly have a reading (didn’t have that in the beginning) but nothing has changed with regards to bubble consistency.


So here is what I am going to do tonight
- perform a 50% water change
- add 1tsp of Equilibrium
- add 1.5tsp of Baking Soda
- add my micros as usual

And Tomorrow (macro day)
- measure the Nitrate and Phosphate
- if phosphate is still high (which I assume will be the case) don’t add any KH2PO4
- if the nitrate is high too, don’t add anything
- if the nitrate is low, add 1tsp of KNO3

Sounds like a plan?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

FYI
Got this from "The Krib"

Note: A nitrate test kit is only of limited value in determining whether the nitrogen cycle has completed. Most nitrate test kits actually convert nitrate to nitrite first, then test for the concentration of nitrite. That is, they actually measure the combined concentration of nitrite and nitrate. In an established tank, nitrite levels are essentially zero, and the kits do properly measure nitrate levels. While a tank is cycling, however, a nitrate kit can't tell you how much of the reading (if any) comes from nitrate rather than nitrite.

At this stage in your cycle your probably seeing a rise in nitrite that is contributing to the test.

Last edited by tetratech at 05-Oct-2005 11:21

My Scapes

Ammonia and Nitrite are the only 2 things I did not test yesterday.

I wonder if the Nitrite Kit would then also include the Nitrate values in the reading.

I didn't bother testing for these values as I think (thought) that 12 1" Espei and 4 Otos will not make a dent in the values of a 125G.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The tank still has to cycle. I understand the plants will take up the nh3, but the process as to happen. Remember you also have decaying plant leaves, roots, fish food, etc. in there.

BTW - I just did a 50% wc and one of my rummys is looking funny. I'm still uncomfortable with the 50% change for the fish. Even when adding PRIME and matching temp I still feel it's a big "hit" for the fish.

My Scapes

So, I did my water change and added the stuff I mentioned above. I scraped off the spot algae from the glass (front and sides) and vacuumed off most of the brown slimy stuff from the front section of the tank.

I recently treated my 20G very successfully for BGA with Maracyn (sp?) medication and I wonder if I should do the same in this tank. I have some on the Rotala which is not a surprise as it has been in the 20G and moved before I started treatment there. A few other plants show now signs of BGA as well, not too wild though yet.

Here are some pics:

First, my troublesome Xmas Moss that seems to fade away and is covered with brown slime algae

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Next, a nice shot of my Egeria Najas, which has tripled in size since it was planted 10 days ago (and pearling )

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And last, the tank after water change on day 10

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

How do I manage to dissolve the dry fertilizers before I add them to the water? In particular the Plantex (1/2 tsp) and the Seachem Equilibrium (1/2 tsp) give me trouble.

I never have any luck trying to dissolve Equilibrium first before adding into the tank, so now I just dump the dry powder into the tank. The powder would collect on the leaves and gravel, but I've found that they will dissolve within 6 hrs or so. So now I just add it at night and by morning I don't see it anymore.

I was considering of adding a school of either Black Neons or Glow Light Tetras to the tank. I read today that they are more sensitive to the water chemistry than Cardinals and also require a dimmed tank to show themselves from their best side (and in the open). I also read that Rummynoses (another school I would like to add) are even more delicate. True?

IME black neons are not that sensitive once your tank is cycled. I've had mine since the beginning (after fishless cycling). But they do look much better under dimmed lighting or in a heavily planted tank. When I had plastic plants in my tank, they looked just ordinary. But now that I have a forest canopy of wisteria and other weeds shading most the tank, their neon stripe looks spectacular against the black body.

Whenever I get Cardinals, I always make sure they've been in the LFS for while (at least a month, but the longer the better). Usually these "aged" cardinals also look much better than the newer ones. I haven't had any problems adding these Cardinals to my cycled tanks.

Of the tetras you mentioned, the order from least sensitive to most sensitive to water conditions: glowlight < black neon < cardinal < rummynose.

Should I add first another set of Otos? Other suggestions (remember – little fish)?

How about some small SAEs? They're good algae eaters. Some shrimps (Amano or ghost) would also be good.

Last edited by upikabu at 05-Oct-2005 19:43

-P

Wow, I just compared your first day shot to this one and you have some really nice growth. It's hard to believe you have the algae problems. :88)

Waterchanges,
When you do the wc are you getting all the bubbles on the glass, plants, etc and are you dosing the whole tank volume or just the wc volume.

My Scapes

The tank still has to cycle. I understand the plants will take up the nh3, but the process as to happen

Why ? If the plants use the ammonia before the bacteria gets to it, what's left to cycle ?

Plants look good,nice growth, you have some decent pearling going on there so good stuff is happening, although the low fish stock will make the pearling easier.

Hang tough.

BGA would point to low NO3 , at odds with your test results ?? Maybe it is imported from the 20g, in which case it shouldn't survive long in this tank.

The little bubbles on the glass plants etc after a water change is the from the huge amount of O2 being brought in with the fresh water. This is why you generally see stronger pearling after a WC, the extra O2 allows the water to supersaturated faster has quicker more intense pearling.

The gap in the 2 big rocks - you know what I though would look cool in there ? A nice Red Lotus or a Nuphar Japonica (Spatterdock you'd like this plant it has a coating on it's leaves that prevents algae from forming) the leaf size and shape would give a nice contrast to the others.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

upikabu – Thanks for your information about the Equilibrium and the fish options, I will keep them in mind. About the SAE, I am not educated enough to distinguish successfully a SAE from a CAE . And aren’t they getting to about 6”, which would be at least double the size of my other fish?

tetratech – You asked me if I dose the full amount or only the water change amount. I assume you mean plant ferts. In this case, I always dose the same amount, water change or not. The water change is just to reset the parameters so that additions don’t push the nitrates over the limit.

Besaf – ok, I will hang tough . The BGA is for sure at least partially imported from the 20G, most of it is on the Rotala which came from this tank. Currently, it seems to spread rather than to diminish.
The plants you are suggesting for this gap are huge, in particular the Spatterdock. I actually intended to leave this area open, with only small plants like glosso in the front, hair grass in the middle between the rocks, and dwarf sag in the back. I think the addition of such a tall (and wide) plant would eliminate the depth illusion (perception). I will think about it. I guess I have some time to do so anyway as I first have to get that sucker established.

The good thing about all this algae – the Otos are getting fat

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

If you want to trade some algae for cloudy water I'm game.

Actually on the dosing, I was talking about the water conditioner (Prime, etc.) When you do the wc are you dosing for the tank volume or for the volume of the change.
It still feels weird to run all that chlorinated water right from the tap into the tank even with the prime going in at the same time.

Last edited by tetratech at 06-Oct-2005 09:39

My Scapes

tetratech,

Thanks, but I don’t think I want to trade, at least I know what my problem is (I think) .

Regarding the Prime – what feels weird to me is that I have to dose sooooo little. I am used to Stress Coat which requires the addition of much more liquid per gallon than Prime. Somehow I am suspicious when I have to assume that just a few drops have the same effect.

As far as dosing during water change is concerned, I use half a cap of my 2l bottle (I think that’s about 5ml) which is maybe a tiny bit more than what I should use for just the changed water. I don’t think that doubling this dose should have any ill effect though.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Ok,

I measured my Nitrate (between 10ppm and 20ppm, closer to last) and Phosphate (maybe a little less than 5ppm).

I decided to dose my macros differently and added only one teaspoon of KNO3 and nothing else. I hope this way I will bring the Phosphate down a little.

Further, I would like to pleasure you (I hope) with a rare flash picture of the tank that I took tonight. Sorry about the flash reflection.

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:


Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 06-Oct-2005 19:51[/font]

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Further, I would like to pleasure you (I hope)

:%):%)
1,057. That's the number of bad jokes that popped into my head. 957 of them would get me banned for life

Sorry, Ingo, I know English is not your mother language and I shouldn't really say anything, but darn I just couldn't resist. Forgive me. ]

Usually I hate flash pics of tanks, that ones actually pretty good, gives a depth and areas of shade.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Bensaf,



Yeah, I had a funny feeling (another 100 bad jokes?) when I wrote this, but I thought “what the heck – people will understand what I mean.”

On the other hand – are you saying that it is not a pleasure to look at my pictures ]:|

I usually don’t like flash pictures either, but I think this one came out nice. Most of the ones I take (usually by mistake when I forget to turn off the flash on the camera) are showing a major reflection that spans half a tank.

To the pic itself, I intended to show that the Water Sprite, Ambulia, and Rotala all have reached the surface. The Ambulia has done something that I have not seen before; it developed side shoots 3/4 up the stem all by itself. This usually required me to cut the top first and then the remaining stem just might create 2 shoots.

Actually, lots of plants in the tank have developed side shoots all over the place. The one that surprises me is the Bacopa as it has not grown significantly but most stems have now 1 to 2 new stems growing from the base.

Question: If I would go and take out the Corkscrew Vals and plant them in another spot, would I have the melting of the leaves again? I mean the new leaves that are just coming in.

Thanks,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Side shoots are a good sign.

The Vals should be fine. The original melt was just an adaptation thing. The move shouldn't set them back.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

First order of business.

"Further, I would like to pleasure you (I hope) "


Obviously you have to be careful what you say, especially around Bensaf.

The tank is really looking good, I guess now you can start to fine-tune a little. Are you going to move things around to hide the reactor?

As far as the vals, I think if the leaves are young enought they won't melt, but you might want someone else to chim in.



Last edited by tetratech at 07-Oct-2005 07:59

Last edited by tetratech at 07-Oct-2005 07:59

My Scapes

tetratech – I don’t know yet what I am going to replant, but I think I will cut some of the Water Sprite and stick it towards the left back of the tank.

All,

I had the pleasure of reading through about 60 pages of printouts from the Krib regarding algae and fertilizing issues. What interesting things I have found there, it reads like the beginnings of today’s fert standards. On user that responded to one of these threads was Tom Barr (aka “The Pope&#8221, it seems like he was just a small light on the horizon who’s star was not yet shining as brightly as it does today. Another article was the so often mentioned Sears-Colin paper and after reading this I know I do the right thing when eliminating Phosphates from my fertilizing program until the levels have fallen to become the limiting entity (around 2ppm if my Nitrates stay at 20ppm).

Overall, cool stuff, unlike the look of my tank ]:|. The carefully removed algae from Wednesday’s water change are returning, in particular the brownish stuff and more thin long hairs than there were before.

But not all is bad news

I see some fresh green in my Xmas Moss which gives me hope that it will not completely die but at least hang around until the darn algae is killed off. While looking along the length of my tank, I made an interesting discovery when I reached the far right side:

I Have Babies

I suddenly saw at least 5 tiny skinny slivers over the right-most rock and just behind it in the plants, all free swimming. They are maybe a little over 1 mm long and from the body structure I assume they are Otos. I am not an expert in identifying young fry (except my platies ) so it could also be the Espei.

I don’t really expect that they will make it to adulthood, but it would be cool. My first thought was “great, the tank is not even 2 weeks old and the fish are already so happy that they spawn”, but this thought was followed by “how the hell am I going to vacuum the yucky brown slime out without losing the fry as well.” I guess I have to live with the algae for a while . On Sunday, I will try to carefully suck the water out on the left side of the tank and keep the python close to the water surface.

But maybe you guys have a better idea.

That’s it for now,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

That tank's lookin pretty sweet! Good luck!

Ya I like the tank. Time to become a gardner and do some trimming Once again, love the tank/:'

Thanks little fish and Plant_LoveRR,

I think my fist steps of “gardening” will be to spread out the fast growing Water Sprite as I am still working on the reduction of the algae. This way I hope to generate a better uptake for the phosphates.

The real gardening will come in a while; I am in no hurry in turning this tank in a completely styled entity. More time gives me a longer period where I can study the tank and imagine of what would look good in it.

Thanks again,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

wow

I am not having a good day

The algae are definitely not decreasing although I haven’t fed any Phosphate to the plants. I guess I will have to give it more time, but it drives me nuts. The tank could be so wonderful but the brown slime is spreading over the ground and from plant to plant. It’s on the bottom of the tank as well as on the highest branches. Nevertheless, plant growth is still strong as even the Egeria Najas are close to reach the surface.

On top of this, one Oto was just lying on the gravel this morning and after trying to get him to swim he seemed to be incapable of keeping the buoyancy. It could be either the swim bladder or a major sign of weakness. I put him to sleep about an hour later when he was not moving at all anymore (but was still breathing). Maybe it was the female Oto that had the fry (if the fry is Otos), I don’t know. The Oto for sure was not skinny and had a nice round belly, but it was on the smaller side and Cali once said to me that the small ones don’t make it most of the time.

Also, it is a few hours ago that I saw the last of the fry, hopefully they are just hiding as the Espei have found them as well.

As I said, not a good day,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Sorry to hear about your otos, they're tough to figure out sometimes.

You have algae problems on the plants and I have it in the water column. I don't know which is worse.

My Scapes

Still a great post to follow, although I sometimes wonder about your blood pressure, Ingo.

I finally have a couple of items to add.

Tetratech
As a discus keeper, I routinely change 50% of my water. I use Prime to condition the water that flows directly from my tap. My tank is a 125G that is heavily planted but no CO2. I use a single capful (5 ml) of Prime to condition a 50% water change. I sometimes add it when I begin the water change, I sometimes add it near the end of the water change. In any case, the plants and discus show little stress from the water change with the exception that the discus often lose their slime coat as the water de-gases. I use Prime as it is the most cost effective of the chlorine/chloramine removers as you noted when you compared dosage size with Stress Coat.

Bensaf
It was my understanding that it is CO2 de-gasing not O2 in the aquarium when you use tap water directly for a water change. After a water change, the pH of the water rises as the CO2 is de-gassed. The CO2 also often creates a "pearling" effect on many plants in my aquarium. Am I wrong?

Last edited by bob wesolowski at 08-Oct-2005 18:06

__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

Bob,

Thanks, that's reassuring if your following that procedure for discus without a problem. I assuming your mixing hot and cold as well right from the tap.

My Scapes

Bob,

I couldn’t agree more with tetratech, it is truly reassuring that the tiny amount of Prime is working well. Soooo much water, soooo little Prime .

About my blood pressure: Last time I had it checked it was just fine . I purposefully write down my emotions, no matter if they are based on positive or negative events. I think this gives a better picture of what one might go through when setting up a new tank (of any size). As you well know (but maybe a newbie doesn’t), setting up a tank is a little more involved than just adding all the ingredients and setbacks might occur.

I would almost (but only almost) go as far as to say that I enjoy these setbacks as they make it so challenging and rewarding once all is achieved to my satisfaction (if that can ever be done ). Could I live with setbacks and be happy too? Oh sure, in particular the fish deaths are a part that I would like to cut from my experience. Do you know what I mean?

I wasn’t in the mood yesterday to write something positive down, so I add it this morning:

The Espei were going at it all day yesterday. They displayed the brightest orange that I have seen on them yet. I think I don’t have enough females as there were always at least 3 males chasing after one female. Once a couple managed to be alone, they went under a leaf and deposited eggs and fertilized them (I actually cannot see the eggs, so I don’t know if it is only one per leaf or multiple). Later I observed some Espei search the undersides for eggs and picking them off.

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 09-Oct-2005 05:58

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Tetra, I am mixing hot and cold water at the tap. I maintain the tank at 29.0C and my variation during a water change is generally 0.2C.

Ingo, Prime dosage is per the directions that are 1 ml per 40L 0r 10G of new water. The cap on the 500ml bottle is 5 ml. I figure the 125 holds about 110G allowing for hardscape and substrate so a 50% water change with 5ml of conditioning is per directions.

Of course, the directions state that you should add it to the new water and then add the new water to the aquarium. "If adding directly to the aquarium, base dose on aquarium volume." So, I guess I don't read directions all that well!

Last edited by bob wesolowski at 09-Oct-2005 09:28

__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

Bensaf
It was my understanding that it is CO2 de-gasing not O2 in the aquarium when you use tap water directly for a water change. After a water change, the pH of the water rises as the CO2 is de-gassed. The CO2 also often creates a "pearling" effect on many plants in my aquarium. Am I wrong?

Tap contains nice amounts of Co2 and o2. The Co2 disappears fairly quickly.For pearling to occur the water first needs to be supersatured with O2. The reason it occurs more quickly and heavily after a water change is because of the high O2 content of tap water, causing the supersaturation to speed up. The pearling you see could simply be the O2 bubbles from the tap water cling to the leaves.

Ingo, the brown alage does it remove easily ? Do the Otto's eat it. Brown diatoms are very common in new set ups and usually disappears by itself pretty quickly.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

LF,

Definitely jealous of the espei activity, that's a good thing to see. Are you going to proactively intervene to save any fry or are you going to let nature take its course. (nature,aquarium style anyway)

My Scapes

Also a very entertaining read!

I just want to ask a couple of things - Bensaf? You think you can out plant algae right? and if you have loads of plants and add all those fertilisers you don't get algae? and you are trying to convince LITTLE FISH and Tetratech of this...?

And test kits are pretty much useless? (Why?) are they only useless in a planted tank? Cos every one else on here says test the water test the water etc?

I have the completely useless type - the dip stick one - if I goes dark pink I do a WC if not I do one any way - esp after what you have said

I dont get algae cos I have a huge pleco that I am not supposed to have. my plants don't grow cos I have stupid lights. my tanks are so simple!

I did buy fertiliser, its called "Kent Botanica Grow phosphate and nitrate free multinutrient solution"

it seems to contain potash, calcium iron magnesium and sulfur...... I shan't use it till I improve my lights or sort out my plants properly but what do you think of it?

cheers gentlemen, very entertaining thread(and educational as well LITTLE FISH )

GFG



_______________________________________
Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey S. Firestone

A summary of today’s activities:

I did change the water as prescribed (aka at least 50%), I measured the phosphate before the change (maybe at about 4ppm) and just now, 8 hours later (at about 3 to 4, hard to tell). I fertilized macros and all I added was the KNO3 (1 tsp). I decided to really hang tough on the phosphates and see if I can reduce it to a maximum of 2ppm. I certainly added my Baking Soda (2tsp) and Equilibrium (1/2tsp).

During the change I trimmed back the Egeria Najas, loads of Water Sprite, and some Rotala. I also sucked out loads of brown slime, but more to this later in this post. I also see that I am getting more BGA, I assume it is because of the abundance in phosphates compared to the nitrates (average of 5ppm to only 20ppm nitrate).

I had some time today and further observed the Espei. Man, it seem like they are getting it on 24/7. I usually don’t see them during the day and this weekend showed them to me from a different side. The males are having show fights and are a bright dark orange. Pairs continued to lay eggs under leaves, sometimes they just mated in mid-air (oh, water) in a style that I have seen in Bettas where the male wraps around the female. Suddenly, you see the eggs falling down and usually they are eaten before they even hit the gravel. Certainly they teach me a lot about fish . For the time being, I will let Mother Nature manage who will grow up.

[font color="#C00000"]Before I get into the venting about the algae let me express my thanks to all people that post comments and suggestions in my log. I appreciate your entries very much as they show me that someone cares to read my lengthy entries (and lists). I appreciate also all the help that you guys and gals provide and which helps me through these sometimes nerve wrecking first weeks (Bob, blood pressure is still good).[/font]

Now, on to the algae]:|]:|]:|

Bensaf, it removes easily and almost completely disintegrates when I try to take it out of the water. I don’t see the Otos or the Espei eating it. It gets tangled up in the fine leaves of some of my stems, the leaves of the Water Sprite, water column roots, Xmas moss, and what not. On the gravel, it is developing in particular well at the base of the Sags and the other plants, it seems to like to be attached to plants more than just sit on the gravel. Here are some photos of it:

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

More Algae

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And one more

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Now, a summary of the development of the first two weeks in picture format. Day 1

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

After one week

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

After two weeks (today), after trimming.

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:


Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 09-Oct-2005 17:07[/font]

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I know you fed up with the Algae LITTLE FISH but that tank looks fantastic! all the palnts are growing so well.

I am sure the algae will die off eventually, the growth of plants is so good, it surely won't have anything to eat soon!



GFG

Last edited by goldfishgeek at 09-Oct-2005 17:30

_______________________________________
Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey S. Firestone

LF
From a distance the tank looks great - really getting lush.

Bensaf, it removes easily and almost completely disintegrates when I try to take it out of the water'
That sounds and looks similiar to what I had in my old 46gallon, but I always blamed it on the EC (po4 50ppm)

I used to take a small siphon and literally vaccum the stuff off the plants. I think GFG is right. If the plants keep growing, it doesn't seem plausible that the algae will continue to flourish.

How 'bout letting loose those 50 shrimp Amano style. Another question, are you using that 10k bulb or the 5k. I think you said you were using the 5k, because I read some where that the 10k are more algae indusive.

Bensaf did say that he never used the EI method in a tank that wasn't loaded plant wise. In our case, maybe there has to be a reaction to the excess. If the nutrients aren't being used by the plants, usually there's a reaction somewhere, in your case algae, in my case green asian tea with a bamboo straw.

Last edited by tetratech at 09-Oct-2005 18:34

My Scapes

Glad the 3 stooges are giving you some fun

I just want to ask a couple of things - Bensaf? You think you can out plant algae right? and if you have loads of plants and add all those fertilisers you don't get algae?

Pretty much. Where people get confused is thinking it's a nutrient thing. It's not really. Most assume the lots of plant issue is to deprive the alage of nutrients. It's not.
Plants and algae are both forms of plant life, they need pretty much the same things to survive. Where they differ is that they are at different levels of the food chain. Plants are the higher order life form. They occupy different ecological niches. The trick is to deprive the alagae of their niche. The heavily planted thing is more to with this then competeing for nutrients. The more plants the less room for algae to find a nice in our miniature eco systems.
Unfortunatle people still cling to the myth that algae need excess nutrients to grow. This is both wrong and patently illogical. Algae being singular celled organisms can thrive on miniscule, impossible to detect levels of nutrients, levels way to low for a plant to survive. So does it make sense that they would need big excess amounts to thrive ???????? Illogical, right ?
A shortage of one or more nutrient will stall plant growth. When plant growth stalls , what happens ? You've just created a niche for the algae to make their home. Problem is when the plant growth is stalled the nutrients aren't being used and stay in the water, so people automatically though "ah it must be the excess nutrient, phosphate or whatever, that started the algae. It wasn't.
So what we do now is we provide ALL the nutrients the plant needs to a slight excess (to make sure we don't run out)to keep the plants growing and thereby deprive the algae the chance to find their own niche. You can push nutrient levels to incredibly high levels and not get a spot of algae.
So it's not really about starving algae, that's impossible, it's about crowding them out

and you are trying to convince LITTLE FISH and Tetratech of this...?

I try, I try but they keep resisting. I think they think of me as some kind of young ,handsome, charming but eccentric uncle

And test kits are pretty much useless? (Why?) are they only useless in a planted tank? Cos every one else on here says test the water test the water etc?

Most of the test kits available just simply aren't good enough or accurate enough for our needs, unless you get into the high end expensive test kits like LaMotte. As a result they can send you on a wild goose chase. They can be calibrated to give a usable reference but most don't bother doing this. Some are better then others, KH and GH kits are usually pretty dependable, PO4 aren't bad, NO3 kits are very dodgy and Iron testkits completely useless. In a planted tank, the plants themselves are much more accurate test kits.My "test kits" are particular plants, one look at the color of Mayacca and I know if I have enough Iron or not, I could post pics of this plant and the color of the foliage in a low Iron tank and a high Iron are much easier to read then any test kit solution ! My Hygro's old leaves will tell me very quickly if there is a problem with Nitrate or Potassium. We only need to know when levels are too low, too high is not an issue so the plants make pretty good test kit's.

I have the completely useless type - the dip stick one

The dip stick type are as about as useless as they come. A complete waste of money IMO.

I did buy fertiliser, its called "Kent Botanica Grow phosphate and nitrate free multinutrient solution"

It's fine. But ferts like this are just one part of the equation. Whether or not you need to use it or how much is dependent on a number of factors. For it to be any use you need to have also sufficient macro nutrients like nitrate and phosphate. In a non Co2 tank, fish poo and food can usually provide enough of these and a small quickly dose of liquid is enough.


Ingo,
Yep I've seen that algae before. It looks like brown algae to me. Good news is it's definately not BGA. The ottos should be chowing down on it but there may simply be too much for them to cope, they're only little fellahs.
Usually it's a result of excess silicates, apparently something quite common in new tanks. As the tank ages and the silicate levels drop the algae dies out. Can be a pain in moss and riccia though, when you try to pull it out it takes the moss and riccia with it.As you've seen it doesn't stop or effect plant growth (unless it gets so thick it blocks light to the plant leaves).

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.