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Gang,

Thanks for the comments, I really appreciate it.

uniqueyat – the LEDs have been part of my lighting system, means they are build into the strip light. I think to remember that you can also buy kits with only these LEDs, just peruse the web and you will find them.

djtj – the gravel is called “Deep River” something. It is actually darker than the pictures might make you believe, most stones are dark gray or a darker brown, but some light stones can be found as well. It is natural gravel as I don’t like the artificially colored kind.

Matty – I don’t think you should retire your log, I am sure that there are more things to happen. I think I never added a comment to it as I never felt qualified to do so.

Thanks again,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Tank is definitely looking more lush.

LF,
Did you ever do the multiple no3 test?

Water Change.
When you do the 50% wc with the python, are you adding the dechlorinater to the tank as you fill it and are you dosing on the tank volume or the wc volume?
BTW - I've decided to do 2 water changes a week, until the tank stablizes.

My Scapes

LF - Nobody seems interested in it (besides you I guess) anymore. I'm glad at least one person was still interested in the log. I'm the only one who has posted on that thread since august, and I've been spending more time on my salt tank anyways (maybe I should write up a log over in the marine section).

And one does not have to be "qualified" to post on my thread. If you've read through it there have been many beginners(though I wouldn't call you a beginner) or whatever asking questions about my setup. I appreciate comments from anybody. But as I stated in the first few posts, I'd only keep it up as long as there is interest.

Last edited by mattyboombatty at 03-Oct-2005 10:18

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Matty,

Can you link me to your log, for some reason I can't find it. I'm really bad looking for stuff, I usually look at what's active and try to comment when I can. - Thanks!



My Scapes

Here is Matty's beautiful log.

Matty - I don't know why your pictures are not showing on the early pages, did you remove them from your "photo bucket"?
With regards to adding comments to your thread, you have to remember that you started your log about 2 months before I got my very first tank and an additional 2 months until I joined FP. I AM A BEGINNER when one counts the years of experience as an indicator (and I certainly still make beginner mistakes).

I would say that FP should consider the creation of a file system that allows these logs to stay visible for an indefinite time period so that newer hobbyists have the chance to skim through them.

tetratech - No, I haven't done the multiple NO3 test yet as I have to carefully balance my time between the tanks and my duties as a father and husband. I am already stretching my wife's patience with all the planting, fertilizing, water changes, moving fish from here to there, trips to the LFS, etc. You know how it is . But I will try to do that soon.
Yeah, before I refill the tank I fill the cap of the Prime Canister (2 liters) half way (should be about 5ml) and while I add the water I pour it in the water stream in maybe 5 small doses. That's it.

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 03-Oct-2005 12:24

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

Thanks for the link. I actually did participate in Matty's log back in Feb'05. I didn't realize it was that one.

BTW - Does your water appear clearer in the morning than it does by the end of day. My tank is starting to look hazy by late afternoon?

Last edited by tetratech at 03-Oct-2005 16:48

My Scapes

First to answer tetratech’s question: I haven’t seen my tank in the morning ever since the day I started it. I am always either at work or I was away (last weekend).

Now to some questions that I hope someone can answer:

- How do I manage to dissolve the dry fertilizers before I add them to the water? In particular the Plantex (1/2 tsp) and the Seachem Equilibrium (1/2 tsp) give me trouble. I mix them up with 2 cups of tank water and stir like crazy; I even repeat the procedure after pouring about 4/5th into the tank by refilling to cup and stirring again. It does not dissolve for the life of it. They always create individual grains that first float in the tank and then collect on the gravel and the leaves.

- I am getting more and more algae. Still no reason to worry? The Water Sprite is growing like mad and a few other plants (for example Egeria Najas) are growing good as well.

- I was considering of adding a school of either Black Neons or Glow Light Tetras to the tank. I read today that they are more sensitive to the water chemistry than Cardinals and also require a dimmed tank to show themselves from their best side (and in the open). I also read that Rummynoses (another school I would like to add) are even more delicate. True?

- Should I add first another set of Otos? Other suggestions (remember – little fish)?

Thanks in advance,

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 03-Oct-2005 19:17

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

First to answer tetratech’s question: I haven’t seen my tank in the morning ever since the day I started it. I am always either at work or I was away (last weekend).

So I guess that's a no to "does your tank look hazy/slightly cloudy by days end" This was happening to my old 46 as well and I never figured it out. I wonder if it has something to do with high co2 levels and low ph by end of day. If anybody else knows or has this experience please chime in.


Dry Ferts
I don't use plantex or the Seachem equil so I'm not sure, but I am doing the same thing you are to dissolve my so4, po4 and no3.

Tetra sensitiviy
I haven't met to many fish that are more sensitive than cardinals to water. I will not attempt to put cardinals into my tank for at least 4 months, probably longer.
I wasn't aware that black neons were sensitive, I was also considering these fish. I already have a school of rummynoses in my tank and so far they are doing fine. I've had good luck with rummys, but maybe my water just agrees with them.






Last edited by tetratech at 03-Oct-2005 19:30

My Scapes

LF with the ferts you should dissolve them in a larger amount of water first, then add that water to your tank. The only dry ferts I have used is KNO3. This readily dissolved in 2 Liters of water to make 1mL = .25 ppm in my tank. You should have them stored in a dark cool place.


I think you should expect troubles while your tank "cycles" this is a real unstable period and you really have to wait it out. You may not find any ammonia or nitrIte, but things are still going to be a bit trying. In a couple weeks I would expect that your algae troubles will cease to be. I was lucky enough to start with a cycled filter and what not.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Oh, I'dd add rummynose for sure if your tank chemistry is stable. A good 20-30 would be a great school for a tank that size. And tetras aren't all that sensitive, a well planted community will be perfect for them. I keep cardinals, and don't do anything special for them - save for some baby brine from work every now and then(which I wouldn't do if didn't have such easy access to it), they also take frozen brine and flake too. Pretty easy critters if you ask me.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

I think you should expect troubles while your tank "cycles" this is a real unstable period and you really have to wait it out. You may not find any ammonia or nitrIte, but things are still going to be a bit trying. In a couple weeks I would expect that your algae troubles will cease to be. I was lucky enough to start with a cycled filter and what not.

I definitely agree with this and that's another reason I wouldn't put any sensitive fish in the tank yet. My readings of nh3 are about 0.25 and I'm sure at this point nitrate are being produced, plus we are adding nitrates. Definitely see the benefits of adding "weeds" and then removing.

Even if your conditions are good, remember change kills fish. So if the fish are going from a non-co2, higher ph, etc. tank they should really be acclimated over a long period of time to your tank (2hrs +).

My experience with cardinals is not the same as Mattys. I did keep a successful school for 18 months without losing any, but they have never done well in an immature tank. If you are going to get cardinals I would find out the water parameters at the store. If it's far off from your tank I would move on to the rummys.

Last edited by tetratech at 04-Oct-2005 05:18

My Scapes

LF,

I don't think we talked about filter media. What are you using in your tank. We both have eheim filters, I think you have the 2028. Are you using the mech, coarse and fine pads. Also did you start you tank with carbon? What is your maintenance schedule going to be?

My Scapes

tetratech,

You are right, I have the 2028 from Eheim.

In the filter, I have 1 liter of Ehfimech in the bottom container that is topped off with the coarse pad (blue) and the next two containers upwards contain 4 liters of Ehfisubstrat topped off with the fine pad (white).

About the maintenance routine, I don’t have one yet .

I would assume that the ball that is floating in the connector section between the filter and the tubing (aka visual flow meter) will show me when the pump is not working at its full capacity and then I would maintain the filter. I will then have to open the filter, remove all the content, rinse it in tank water, put everything back into the filter, close it, and prime it.

I don’t use activated carbon on my tanks anymore. I know it makes the water cleaner but it also (at least that is the word on the street) binds fertilizer elements. The only time I would use it is to remove meds from a tank.

Matty and tetratech – thanks for the comments regarding my questions.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF - consider running carbon every now and again. Not full time, but say for a week every 3 months. Carbon can take out all sorts of nasties and can really polish the water. This can be good for any sensitive fish you are thinking about getting. The plants won't mind a week without ferts once they are well established as they store up nutrients.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

The only reason I asked about AC is for the startup. I don't use AC either, except for med removal, but I believe it might have it's uses at startup before the bacterial colony is established.

My Scapes

Gang,

After removing some of the strains of algae from the tank by hand tonight, I decided it is time to check some parameters. I know, I am using the useless test kits, but how else can I check? Like are the plants growing – yes, are all other things in sink – no, I have too much algae of all kinds.

So here are my values:

ph – 6.9 (I haven’t had a steady bubble count over the course of 2 days except once last week)
KH – about 4.5 dH
GH – about 5.5 dH
Nitrate – maybe between 20ppm and 30ppm
Iron – maybe 0.1 (first time I used this kit)
And here it comes: Phosphates – a whopping 5ppm to 10ppm (more towards the 10 color than the 5)

Could it be that the phosphates cause all the algae? Shouldn’t it be maybe up to 2ppm?

Here is my feeding plan again:

KNO3 – 1.25tsp 3x per week
KH2PO4 – 0.25tsp 3x per week
K2SO4 – 0.5tsp 3x per week
Plantex – 0.5tsp 3x per week
Seachem Equilibrium – 0.5tsp 1x per week

Any thoughts or ideas?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I just did another Phosphate test, this time on my tab water. It comes out with a color of at least 2ppm, maybe even a little more (darker).

Thanks,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

based on your numbers, light, co2 the plants aren't taking up enough nutrients. I'm getting high readings as well on most parameters and my water is starting to get cloudy. I'm vexed, terribly vexed by the cloudiness. By this time in your tank, your probably getting add'l no3 from the cycling. I'm a little concerned maybe the EI method is too agressive based on your plant mass and especially mine. Why else would all your readings be that high. I read that Amano does multiple water changes during the first week or so, to control algae, etc. Have you checked nh3 levels as well. If the tank didn't cycle or went through a mini one the nh3 should be about zero. MY nh3 readings are somewhere between .25 and .50 and this after a water change 2 days ago.

BTW - Remember all of the algae problems I had in my 46 when the po4 levels were through the roof.

Last edited by tetratech at 04-Oct-2005 20:01

My Scapes

I see a few tweaks that could be made to your dosing. I don't think you got those numbers from me ?

Your phospate dosing is a little on the high side. 1/4 tspn is adding almost 2ppm a shot. Cut down to about 1/8 teaspoon which will give you about 1ppm a shot should be enough.

Cut the Kno3 to 1 tspn which will give about 7ppm a shot, again this should be fine.

Way too much Potassium. Your are adding K with every dose of No3 and Po4, the Equilibrium is quite high in K also. On top of that you are adding K2SO4 3 times a week. Overkill. It's probably not harming anything but if you don't need that much why add it. I'd eliminate the K2SO4 altogether or at least reduce to just onne dose at WC.

Co2 is still too low. Try to keep pH in the 6.6 to 6.8 range. If the needle valve is still causing problems set the bubble count a little high so if it falls back you still stay in a good range. I've got similar KH and push the pH to 6.6 comstantly with no effect on fish. This will speed up the nutrient uptake greatly.

You can do a big water change to reset. Try the dosing above. When the plant bio mass has really increased you can go back to original dosing if needed. You'll find uptake will increase dramatically as plants bio mass increases, also as they grow and get closer to the light photosynthesis will be stronger = more uptake.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Thanks Bensaf,

The phosphate levels make perfect sense to me now.

A quarter of a teaspoon of KH2PO4 raises the phosphate by 1.7ppm; my tab has about 2ppm. In the first week I filled the tank and added 3 doses of it, means 7.1ppm overall. Then I did a 50% water change which should bring me to about 2.8ppm. And this week I added another 2 doses, so together it should be around 6ppm and that is about what I measured last night (not considering any uptakes from the plants and test kit color issues).

I would even go so far as to cut out the addition of KH2PO4 to the macro nutrients all together for a while until the level of phosphate is low enough. I might never have to add any if my tab water analysis is correct.

About the needle valve – it just drives me nuts. I come home at night to see it bubble at about 1.5bps. So I turn it up and the next position is a stream of CO2. So I turn it down again until it stays at about 3.5bps. The next day the game repeats itself. I already adjusted my low pressure valve to constantly have a reading (didn’t have that in the beginning) but nothing has changed with regards to bubble consistency.


So here is what I am going to do tonight
- perform a 50% water change
- add 1tsp of Equilibrium
- add 1.5tsp of Baking Soda
- add my micros as usual

And Tomorrow (macro day)
- measure the Nitrate and Phosphate
- if phosphate is still high (which I assume will be the case) don’t add any KH2PO4
- if the nitrate is high too, don’t add anything
- if the nitrate is low, add 1tsp of KNO3

Sounds like a plan?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

FYI
Got this from "The Krib"

Note: A nitrate test kit is only of limited value in determining whether the nitrogen cycle has completed. Most nitrate test kits actually convert nitrate to nitrite first, then test for the concentration of nitrite. That is, they actually measure the combined concentration of nitrite and nitrate. In an established tank, nitrite levels are essentially zero, and the kits do properly measure nitrate levels. While a tank is cycling, however, a nitrate kit can't tell you how much of the reading (if any) comes from nitrate rather than nitrite.

At this stage in your cycle your probably seeing a rise in nitrite that is contributing to the test.

Last edited by tetratech at 05-Oct-2005 11:21

My Scapes

Ammonia and Nitrite are the only 2 things I did not test yesterday.

I wonder if the Nitrite Kit would then also include the Nitrate values in the reading.

I didn't bother testing for these values as I think (thought) that 12 1" Espei and 4 Otos will not make a dent in the values of a 125G.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The tank still has to cycle. I understand the plants will take up the nh3, but the process as to happen. Remember you also have decaying plant leaves, roots, fish food, etc. in there.

BTW - I just did a 50% wc and one of my rummys is looking funny. I'm still uncomfortable with the 50% change for the fish. Even when adding PRIME and matching temp I still feel it's a big "hit" for the fish.

My Scapes

So, I did my water change and added the stuff I mentioned above. I scraped off the spot algae from the glass (front and sides) and vacuumed off most of the brown slimy stuff from the front section of the tank.

I recently treated my 20G very successfully for BGA with Maracyn (sp?) medication and I wonder if I should do the same in this tank. I have some on the Rotala which is not a surprise as it has been in the 20G and moved before I started treatment there. A few other plants show now signs of BGA as well, not too wild though yet.

Here are some pics:

First, my troublesome Xmas Moss that seems to fade away and is covered with brown slime algae

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Next, a nice shot of my Egeria Najas, which has tripled in size since it was planted 10 days ago (and pearling )

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And last, the tank after water change on day 10

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

How do I manage to dissolve the dry fertilizers before I add them to the water? In particular the Plantex (1/2 tsp) and the Seachem Equilibrium (1/2 tsp) give me trouble.

I never have any luck trying to dissolve Equilibrium first before adding into the tank, so now I just dump the dry powder into the tank. The powder would collect on the leaves and gravel, but I've found that they will dissolve within 6 hrs or so. So now I just add it at night and by morning I don't see it anymore.

I was considering of adding a school of either Black Neons or Glow Light Tetras to the tank. I read today that they are more sensitive to the water chemistry than Cardinals and also require a dimmed tank to show themselves from their best side (and in the open). I also read that Rummynoses (another school I would like to add) are even more delicate. True?

IME black neons are not that sensitive once your tank is cycled. I've had mine since the beginning (after fishless cycling). But they do look much better under dimmed lighting or in a heavily planted tank. When I had plastic plants in my tank, they looked just ordinary. But now that I have a forest canopy of wisteria and other weeds shading most the tank, their neon stripe looks spectacular against the black body.

Whenever I get Cardinals, I always make sure they've been in the LFS for while (at least a month, but the longer the better). Usually these "aged" cardinals also look much better than the newer ones. I haven't had any problems adding these Cardinals to my cycled tanks.

Of the tetras you mentioned, the order from least sensitive to most sensitive to water conditions: glowlight < black neon < cardinal < rummynose.

Should I add first another set of Otos? Other suggestions (remember – little fish)?

How about some small SAEs? They're good algae eaters. Some shrimps (Amano or ghost) would also be good.

Last edited by upikabu at 05-Oct-2005 19:43

-P

Wow, I just compared your first day shot to this one and you have some really nice growth. It's hard to believe you have the algae problems. :88)

Waterchanges,
When you do the wc are you getting all the bubbles on the glass, plants, etc and are you dosing the whole tank volume or just the wc volume.

My Scapes

The tank still has to cycle. I understand the plants will take up the nh3, but the process as to happen

Why ? If the plants use the ammonia before the bacteria gets to it, what's left to cycle ?

Plants look good,nice growth, you have some decent pearling going on there so good stuff is happening, although the low fish stock will make the pearling easier.

Hang tough.

BGA would point to low NO3 , at odds with your test results ?? Maybe it is imported from the 20g, in which case it shouldn't survive long in this tank.

The little bubbles on the glass plants etc after a water change is the from the huge amount of O2 being brought in with the fresh water. This is why you generally see stronger pearling after a WC, the extra O2 allows the water to supersaturated faster has quicker more intense pearling.

The gap in the 2 big rocks - you know what I though would look cool in there ? A nice Red Lotus or a Nuphar Japonica (Spatterdock you'd like this plant it has a coating on it's leaves that prevents algae from forming) the leaf size and shape would give a nice contrast to the others.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

upikabu – Thanks for your information about the Equilibrium and the fish options, I will keep them in mind. About the SAE, I am not educated enough to distinguish successfully a SAE from a CAE . And aren’t they getting to about 6”, which would be at least double the size of my other fish?

tetratech – You asked me if I dose the full amount or only the water change amount. I assume you mean plant ferts. In this case, I always dose the same amount, water change or not. The water change is just to reset the parameters so that additions don’t push the nitrates over the limit.

Besaf – ok, I will hang tough . The BGA is for sure at least partially imported from the 20G, most of it is on the Rotala which came from this tank. Currently, it seems to spread rather than to diminish.
The plants you are suggesting for this gap are huge, in particular the Spatterdock. I actually intended to leave this area open, with only small plants like glosso in the front, hair grass in the middle between the rocks, and dwarf sag in the back. I think the addition of such a tall (and wide) plant would eliminate the depth illusion (perception). I will think about it. I guess I have some time to do so anyway as I first have to get that sucker established.

The good thing about all this algae – the Otos are getting fat

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

If you want to trade some algae for cloudy water I'm game.

Actually on the dosing, I was talking about the water conditioner (Prime, etc.) When you do the wc are you dosing for the tank volume or for the volume of the change.
It still feels weird to run all that chlorinated water right from the tap into the tank even with the prime going in at the same time.

Last edited by tetratech at 06-Oct-2005 09:39

My Scapes

tetratech,

Thanks, but I don’t think I want to trade, at least I know what my problem is (I think) .

Regarding the Prime – what feels weird to me is that I have to dose sooooo little. I am used to Stress Coat which requires the addition of much more liquid per gallon than Prime. Somehow I am suspicious when I have to assume that just a few drops have the same effect.

As far as dosing during water change is concerned, I use half a cap of my 2l bottle (I think that’s about 5ml) which is maybe a tiny bit more than what I should use for just the changed water. I don’t think that doubling this dose should have any ill effect though.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Ok,

I measured my Nitrate (between 10ppm and 20ppm, closer to last) and Phosphate (maybe a little less than 5ppm).

I decided to dose my macros differently and added only one teaspoon of KNO3 and nothing else. I hope this way I will bring the Phosphate down a little.

Further, I would like to pleasure you (I hope) with a rare flash picture of the tank that I took tonight. Sorry about the flash reflection.

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:


Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 06-Oct-2005 19:51[/font]

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Further, I would like to pleasure you (I hope)

:%):%)
1,057. That's the number of bad jokes that popped into my head. 957 of them would get me banned for life

Sorry, Ingo, I know English is not your mother language and I shouldn't really say anything, but darn I just couldn't resist. Forgive me. ]

Usually I hate flash pics of tanks, that ones actually pretty good, gives a depth and areas of shade.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Bensaf,



Yeah, I had a funny feeling (another 100 bad jokes?) when I wrote this, but I thought “what the heck – people will understand what I mean.”

On the other hand – are you saying that it is not a pleasure to look at my pictures ]:|

I usually don’t like flash pictures either, but I think this one came out nice. Most of the ones I take (usually by mistake when I forget to turn off the flash on the camera) are showing a major reflection that spans half a tank.

To the pic itself, I intended to show that the Water Sprite, Ambulia, and Rotala all have reached the surface. The Ambulia has done something that I have not seen before; it developed side shoots 3/4 up the stem all by itself. This usually required me to cut the top first and then the remaining stem just might create 2 shoots.

Actually, lots of plants in the tank have developed side shoots all over the place. The one that surprises me is the Bacopa as it has not grown significantly but most stems have now 1 to 2 new stems growing from the base.

Question: If I would go and take out the Corkscrew Vals and plant them in another spot, would I have the melting of the leaves again? I mean the new leaves that are just coming in.

Thanks,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Side shoots are a good sign.

The Vals should be fine. The original melt was just an adaptation thing. The move shouldn't set them back.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

First order of business.

"Further, I would like to pleasure you (I hope) "


Obviously you have to be careful what you say, especially around Bensaf.

The tank is really looking good, I guess now you can start to fine-tune a little. Are you going to move things around to hide the reactor?

As far as the vals, I think if the leaves are young enought they won't melt, but you might want someone else to chim in.



Last edited by tetratech at 07-Oct-2005 07:59

Last edited by tetratech at 07-Oct-2005 07:59

My Scapes

tetratech – I don’t know yet what I am going to replant, but I think I will cut some of the Water Sprite and stick it towards the left back of the tank.

All,

I had the pleasure of reading through about 60 pages of printouts from the Krib regarding algae and fertilizing issues. What interesting things I have found there, it reads like the beginnings of today’s fert standards. On user that responded to one of these threads was Tom Barr (aka “The Pope&#8221, it seems like he was just a small light on the horizon who’s star was not yet shining as brightly as it does today. Another article was the so often mentioned Sears-Colin paper and after reading this I know I do the right thing when eliminating Phosphates from my fertilizing program until the levels have fallen to become the limiting entity (around 2ppm if my Nitrates stay at 20ppm).

Overall, cool stuff, unlike the look of my tank ]:|. The carefully removed algae from Wednesday’s water change are returning, in particular the brownish stuff and more thin long hairs than there were before.

But not all is bad news

I see some fresh green in my Xmas Moss which gives me hope that it will not completely die but at least hang around until the darn algae is killed off. While looking along the length of my tank, I made an interesting discovery when I reached the far right side:

I Have Babies

I suddenly saw at least 5 tiny skinny slivers over the right-most rock and just behind it in the plants, all free swimming. They are maybe a little over 1 mm long and from the body structure I assume they are Otos. I am not an expert in identifying young fry (except my platies ) so it could also be the Espei.

I don’t really expect that they will make it to adulthood, but it would be cool. My first thought was “great, the tank is not even 2 weeks old and the fish are already so happy that they spawn”, but this thought was followed by “how the hell am I going to vacuum the yucky brown slime out without losing the fry as well.” I guess I have to live with the algae for a while . On Sunday, I will try to carefully suck the water out on the left side of the tank and keep the python close to the water surface.

But maybe you guys have a better idea.

That’s it for now,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

That tank's lookin pretty sweet! Good luck!

Ya I like the tank. Time to become a gardner and do some trimming Once again, love the tank/:'

Thanks little fish and Plant_LoveRR,

I think my fist steps of “gardening” will be to spread out the fast growing Water Sprite as I am still working on the reduction of the algae. This way I hope to generate a better uptake for the phosphates.

The real gardening will come in a while; I am in no hurry in turning this tank in a completely styled entity. More time gives me a longer period where I can study the tank and imagine of what would look good in it.

Thanks again,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

wow

I am not having a good day

The algae are definitely not decreasing although I haven’t fed any Phosphate to the plants. I guess I will have to give it more time, but it drives me nuts. The tank could be so wonderful but the brown slime is spreading over the ground and from plant to plant. It’s on the bottom of the tank as well as on the highest branches. Nevertheless, plant growth is still strong as even the Egeria Najas are close to reach the surface.

On top of this, one Oto was just lying on the gravel this morning and after trying to get him to swim he seemed to be incapable of keeping the buoyancy. It could be either the swim bladder or a major sign of weakness. I put him to sleep about an hour later when he was not moving at all anymore (but was still breathing). Maybe it was the female Oto that had the fry (if the fry is Otos), I don’t know. The Oto for sure was not skinny and had a nice round belly, but it was on the smaller side and Cali once said to me that the small ones don’t make it most of the time.

Also, it is a few hours ago that I saw the last of the fry, hopefully they are just hiding as the Espei have found them as well.

As I said, not a good day,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Sorry to hear about your otos, they're tough to figure out sometimes.

You have algae problems on the plants and I have it in the water column. I don't know which is worse.

My Scapes

Still a great post to follow, although I sometimes wonder about your blood pressure, Ingo.

I finally have a couple of items to add.

Tetratech
As a discus keeper, I routinely change 50% of my water. I use Prime to condition the water that flows directly from my tap. My tank is a 125G that is heavily planted but no CO2. I use a single capful (5 ml) of Prime to condition a 50% water change. I sometimes add it when I begin the water change, I sometimes add it near the end of the water change. In any case, the plants and discus show little stress from the water change with the exception that the discus often lose their slime coat as the water de-gases. I use Prime as it is the most cost effective of the chlorine/chloramine removers as you noted when you compared dosage size with Stress Coat.

Bensaf
It was my understanding that it is CO2 de-gasing not O2 in the aquarium when you use tap water directly for a water change. After a water change, the pH of the water rises as the CO2 is de-gassed. The CO2 also often creates a "pearling" effect on many plants in my aquarium. Am I wrong?

Last edited by bob wesolowski at 08-Oct-2005 18:06

__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

Bob,

Thanks, that's reassuring if your following that procedure for discus without a problem. I assuming your mixing hot and cold as well right from the tap.

My Scapes

Bob,

I couldn’t agree more with tetratech, it is truly reassuring that the tiny amount of Prime is working well. Soooo much water, soooo little Prime .

About my blood pressure: Last time I had it checked it was just fine . I purposefully write down my emotions, no matter if they are based on positive or negative events. I think this gives a better picture of what one might go through when setting up a new tank (of any size). As you well know (but maybe a newbie doesn’t), setting up a tank is a little more involved than just adding all the ingredients and setbacks might occur.

I would almost (but only almost) go as far as to say that I enjoy these setbacks as they make it so challenging and rewarding once all is achieved to my satisfaction (if that can ever be done ). Could I live with setbacks and be happy too? Oh sure, in particular the fish deaths are a part that I would like to cut from my experience. Do you know what I mean?

I wasn’t in the mood yesterday to write something positive down, so I add it this morning:

The Espei were going at it all day yesterday. They displayed the brightest orange that I have seen on them yet. I think I don’t have enough females as there were always at least 3 males chasing after one female. Once a couple managed to be alone, they went under a leaf and deposited eggs and fertilized them (I actually cannot see the eggs, so I don’t know if it is only one per leaf or multiple). Later I observed some Espei search the undersides for eggs and picking them off.

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 09-Oct-2005 05:58

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Tetra, I am mixing hot and cold water at the tap. I maintain the tank at 29.0C and my variation during a water change is generally 0.2C.

Ingo, Prime dosage is per the directions that are 1 ml per 40L 0r 10G of new water. The cap on the 500ml bottle is 5 ml. I figure the 125 holds about 110G allowing for hardscape and substrate so a 50% water change with 5ml of conditioning is per directions.

Of course, the directions state that you should add it to the new water and then add the new water to the aquarium. "If adding directly to the aquarium, base dose on aquarium volume." So, I guess I don't read directions all that well!

Last edited by bob wesolowski at 09-Oct-2005 09:28

__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

Bensaf
It was my understanding that it is CO2 de-gasing not O2 in the aquarium when you use tap water directly for a water change. After a water change, the pH of the water rises as the CO2 is de-gassed. The CO2 also often creates a "pearling" effect on many plants in my aquarium. Am I wrong?

Tap contains nice amounts of Co2 and o2. The Co2 disappears fairly quickly.For pearling to occur the water first needs to be supersatured with O2. The reason it occurs more quickly and heavily after a water change is because of the high O2 content of tap water, causing the supersaturation to speed up. The pearling you see could simply be the O2 bubbles from the tap water cling to the leaves.

Ingo, the brown alage does it remove easily ? Do the Otto's eat it. Brown diatoms are very common in new set ups and usually disappears by itself pretty quickly.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

LF,

Definitely jealous of the espei activity, that's a good thing to see. Are you going to proactively intervene to save any fry or are you going to let nature take its course. (nature,aquarium style anyway)

My Scapes

Also a very entertaining read!

I just want to ask a couple of things - Bensaf? You think you can out plant algae right? and if you have loads of plants and add all those fertilisers you don't get algae? and you are trying to convince LITTLE FISH and Tetratech of this...?

And test kits are pretty much useless? (Why?) are they only useless in a planted tank? Cos every one else on here says test the water test the water etc?

I have the completely useless type - the dip stick one - if I goes dark pink I do a WC if not I do one any way - esp after what you have said

I dont get algae cos I have a huge pleco that I am not supposed to have. my plants don't grow cos I have stupid lights. my tanks are so simple!

I did buy fertiliser, its called "Kent Botanica Grow phosphate and nitrate free multinutrient solution"

it seems to contain potash, calcium iron magnesium and sulfur...... I shan't use it till I improve my lights or sort out my plants properly but what do you think of it?

cheers gentlemen, very entertaining thread(and educational as well LITTLE FISH )

GFG



_______________________________________
Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey S. Firestone

A summary of today’s activities:

I did change the water as prescribed (aka at least 50%), I measured the phosphate before the change (maybe at about 4ppm) and just now, 8 hours later (at about 3 to 4, hard to tell). I fertilized macros and all I added was the KNO3 (1 tsp). I decided to really hang tough on the phosphates and see if I can reduce it to a maximum of 2ppm. I certainly added my Baking Soda (2tsp) and Equilibrium (1/2tsp).

During the change I trimmed back the Egeria Najas, loads of Water Sprite, and some Rotala. I also sucked out loads of brown slime, but more to this later in this post. I also see that I am getting more BGA, I assume it is because of the abundance in phosphates compared to the nitrates (average of 5ppm to only 20ppm nitrate).

I had some time today and further observed the Espei. Man, it seem like they are getting it on 24/7. I usually don’t see them during the day and this weekend showed them to me from a different side. The males are having show fights and are a bright dark orange. Pairs continued to lay eggs under leaves, sometimes they just mated in mid-air (oh, water) in a style that I have seen in Bettas where the male wraps around the female. Suddenly, you see the eggs falling down and usually they are eaten before they even hit the gravel. Certainly they teach me a lot about fish . For the time being, I will let Mother Nature manage who will grow up.

[font color="#C00000"]Before I get into the venting about the algae let me express my thanks to all people that post comments and suggestions in my log. I appreciate your entries very much as they show me that someone cares to read my lengthy entries (and lists). I appreciate also all the help that you guys and gals provide and which helps me through these sometimes nerve wrecking first weeks (Bob, blood pressure is still good).[/font]

Now, on to the algae]:|]:|]:|

Bensaf, it removes easily and almost completely disintegrates when I try to take it out of the water. I don’t see the Otos or the Espei eating it. It gets tangled up in the fine leaves of some of my stems, the leaves of the Water Sprite, water column roots, Xmas moss, and what not. On the gravel, it is developing in particular well at the base of the Sags and the other plants, it seems to like to be attached to plants more than just sit on the gravel. Here are some photos of it:

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

More Algae

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And one more

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Now, a summary of the development of the first two weeks in picture format. Day 1

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

After one week

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

After two weeks (today), after trimming.

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:


Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 09-Oct-2005 17:07[/font]

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I know you fed up with the Algae LITTLE FISH but that tank looks fantastic! all the palnts are growing so well.

I am sure the algae will die off eventually, the growth of plants is so good, it surely won't have anything to eat soon!



GFG

Last edited by goldfishgeek at 09-Oct-2005 17:30

_______________________________________
Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey S. Firestone

LF
From a distance the tank looks great - really getting lush.

Bensaf, it removes easily and almost completely disintegrates when I try to take it out of the water'
That sounds and looks similiar to what I had in my old 46gallon, but I always blamed it on the EC (po4 50ppm)

I used to take a small siphon and literally vaccum the stuff off the plants. I think GFG is right. If the plants keep growing, it doesn't seem plausible that the algae will continue to flourish.

How 'bout letting loose those 50 shrimp Amano style. Another question, are you using that 10k bulb or the 5k. I think you said you were using the 5k, because I read some where that the 10k are more algae indusive.

Bensaf did say that he never used the EI method in a tank that wasn't loaded plant wise. In our case, maybe there has to be a reaction to the excess. If the nutrients aren't being used by the plants, usually there's a reaction somewhere, in your case algae, in my case green asian tea with a bamboo straw.

Last edited by tetratech at 09-Oct-2005 18:34

My Scapes

Glad the 3 stooges are giving you some fun

I just want to ask a couple of things - Bensaf? You think you can out plant algae right? and if you have loads of plants and add all those fertilisers you don't get algae?

Pretty much. Where people get confused is thinking it's a nutrient thing. It's not really. Most assume the lots of plant issue is to deprive the alage of nutrients. It's not.
Plants and algae are both forms of plant life, they need pretty much the same things to survive. Where they differ is that they are at different levels of the food chain. Plants are the higher order life form. They occupy different ecological niches. The trick is to deprive the alagae of their niche. The heavily planted thing is more to with this then competeing for nutrients. The more plants the less room for algae to find a nice in our miniature eco systems.
Unfortunatle people still cling to the myth that algae need excess nutrients to grow. This is both wrong and patently illogical. Algae being singular celled organisms can thrive on miniscule, impossible to detect levels of nutrients, levels way to low for a plant to survive. So does it make sense that they would need big excess amounts to thrive ???????? Illogical, right ?
A shortage of one or more nutrient will stall plant growth. When plant growth stalls , what happens ? You've just created a niche for the algae to make their home. Problem is when the plant growth is stalled the nutrients aren't being used and stay in the water, so people automatically though "ah it must be the excess nutrient, phosphate or whatever, that started the algae. It wasn't.
So what we do now is we provide ALL the nutrients the plant needs to a slight excess (to make sure we don't run out)to keep the plants growing and thereby deprive the algae the chance to find their own niche. You can push nutrient levels to incredibly high levels and not get a spot of algae.
So it's not really about starving algae, that's impossible, it's about crowding them out

and you are trying to convince LITTLE FISH and Tetratech of this...?

I try, I try but they keep resisting. I think they think of me as some kind of young ,handsome, charming but eccentric uncle

And test kits are pretty much useless? (Why?) are they only useless in a planted tank? Cos every one else on here says test the water test the water etc?

Most of the test kits available just simply aren't good enough or accurate enough for our needs, unless you get into the high end expensive test kits like LaMotte. As a result they can send you on a wild goose chase. They can be calibrated to give a usable reference but most don't bother doing this. Some are better then others, KH and GH kits are usually pretty dependable, PO4 aren't bad, NO3 kits are very dodgy and Iron testkits completely useless. In a planted tank, the plants themselves are much more accurate test kits.My "test kits" are particular plants, one look at the color of Mayacca and I know if I have enough Iron or not, I could post pics of this plant and the color of the foliage in a low Iron tank and a high Iron are much easier to read then any test kit solution ! My Hygro's old leaves will tell me very quickly if there is a problem with Nitrate or Potassium. We only need to know when levels are too low, too high is not an issue so the plants make pretty good test kit's.

I have the completely useless type - the dip stick one

The dip stick type are as about as useless as they come. A complete waste of money IMO.

I did buy fertiliser, its called "Kent Botanica Grow phosphate and nitrate free multinutrient solution"

It's fine. But ferts like this are just one part of the equation. Whether or not you need to use it or how much is dependent on a number of factors. For it to be any use you need to have also sufficient macro nutrients like nitrate and phosphate. In a non Co2 tank, fish poo and food can usually provide enough of these and a small quickly dose of liquid is enough.


Ingo,
Yep I've seen that algae before. It looks like brown algae to me. Good news is it's definately not BGA. The ottos should be chowing down on it but there may simply be too much for them to cope, they're only little fellahs.
Usually it's a result of excess silicates, apparently something quite common in new tanks. As the tank ages and the silicate levels drop the algae dies out. Can be a pain in moss and riccia though, when you try to pull it out it takes the moss and riccia with it.As you've seen it doesn't stop or effect plant growth (unless it gets so thick it blocks light to the plant leaves).

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Gang, thank you for your input.

Goldfishgeek – I hope ( and believe) that you are right and the algae will disappear, or at least be very little, over time. I am currently adjusting my default fertilizer dosages to balance the individual elements, in particular the macros, better.

tetratech – 50 Amano shrimp $$$. I went to the LFS yesterday (oh what a surprise) and looked at fishies and shrimp. They had only 2 Amano shrimp left, each for $ 4.00. I don’t think I want to spend $ 200 on a cleaning crew . In addition, I didn’t want to get these 2 either as they were in a tank with a female Betta that clearly had Dropsy. I will have to wait.

I think our algae issues are very different; the only commonality is that we both have it after setting up the tank. Yes, I am using 2 x 96W 6,700K and 2 x 96W 5,000K. I read that the brown algae thrives (unlike plants) also in low light settings, so I increased my lighting duration to 12 hours and don’t wait too long to turn on the second set (30min later, 30 min earlier off).

Bensaf – Thanks for the identification of the yucky brown slime. Guess I will have to wait this one out and I think that I am seeing progress already – the pump for the reactor was brown on Saturday and clean on Sunday, without me doing anything to it. The fact that there are many diatoms in the water might also be the reason that the Espei “are so happy”.

I knew that this is not BGA as I have it somewhere else in the tank (in particular in the lower half of the Rotala, but also on leaves of plants on the other end of the tank and in the middle of the tank. It was my understanding that BGA usually has one of two reasons to occur: 1) low Nitrates as it can fix its own, and 2) lack of water circulation that brings oxygen to the plants. Neither nor seems to be the case as (at least based on plant growth and the test kit) Nitrates are fine and circulation is good, in particular near the Rotala as there is the filter intake right behind them. Oxygen is also provided plentiful as my plants are bubbling very nicely.

Last night, just before lights out, I measured my tank parameters to calculate my CO2:

KH = 4 dH
ph = 6.5 (the lowest ever as the CO2 system was bubbling at 3 to 4 bps all day long and the light was on longer)

That would give me a CO2 concentration that is almost too high now, at about 38ppm. I still haven’t mastered the art of finely adjusting the needle valve. When I open it a little the bps goes down, as soon as I open it more, it races, then I have to close it again (almost more than what I had opened it by) to get 3 bps. The next day, it is usually down to 2bps. Darn technology .

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Gang,

It is ranting time ]:| ]:| ]:|

The algae in my tank are driving me insane. I seriously begin to question the entire fertilizing approach as I am afraid that I opened the door for all kinds of algae. I have green spot on mass (on the back glass and some plants), brown slime (all over), BGA (various plants), long thing green hairs (plants), and shorter green hairs (plants).

Isn’t there a rule that says one alga thrives in one environment (for example high phosphates low nitrates) while another thrive in a different one? How can it be that I have all of them at the same time? By now the BGA is smothering my Xmas moss to death and I will not wait much longer before I will use Maracyn on the tank (for those who don’t know, an antibiotic that kills BGA). The fact that whatever of the moss is not covered in BGA is covered by brown slime doesn’t help either.

Let me tell you, it is utterly frustrating. I should be concerned what fish I would like to add next but instead find myself too busy in trying to understand what the heck is going on.

Does anyone have any explanation for this????

BTW – I found at least 7 fry and I begin to believe they are Espei as some of them to show the typical dark triangular marking although they seem to be by far not as deep as the adults.

And that’s it for today, good night

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

I definitely feel for you. If misery loves company, check out my latest post and feel the sarcasm. At least the algae is probably feeding your baby fish.

I bet you Bensaf has his feet up and is watching his beautiful "crystal clear, algae free tank" and .

Maybe it's the Jersey and Long Guy-Land Water supply. It's not safe for man or fish.

Last edited by tetratech at 10-Oct-2005 19:58

My Scapes

I don't really know what to say Ingo, or rather I can't say anymore then I already have.

I stand by the fert regime, as I know from personal experience and the experience of many others that it works.

All I can do is remind again that stability is important. We are still in the relatively early days of this tank. There's nothing wrong with adjusting the fert dosages etc, but just remember any change should be given at least 3 weeks to see the effects. Chopping and changing is not good, as it tells you very little about what's really going on in the tank and it's not good for the system to have the parameters shifting justing as the it may be reaching a settling point.

Try to ride out problems. I know that's easier to say then do, but sometimes you have to go thru the pain.

Plant growth has been good as can be seen from the pics, so things are going in the right direction. It's when you see a stall in plant growth that you should be really worried rather then the algae.

Continue with your plans to add fish etc, no amount of algae bothers them, and the tank will have to come to terms with the change in bio load sooner or later , better sooner.

Get the Co2 stable, I reapeat, get the Co2 stable. This is massively important almost all problems can be traced back to Co2 issues. With Co2 stability is vital. You posted a Co2 content of 38ppm , nothing wrong with that if the fish aren't bothered. The KH/pH calculations aren't exact, a lot of times we have less Co2 then we think. Let the fish guide you. If they aren't gasping at the surface it doesn't matter if your Co2 calculates at 100ppm, it just means the calculations are wrong. So if you get a stable bubble rate that happens to read 38ppm but the fish aren't bothered leave it be. Co2 won't cause algae, you can't have too much for plants, so the only concern with Co2 levels is the livestock. Again, the plants and fish are your best test kit.

Watch the plants, if you have good growth and good pearling you are heading in the right direction and the alage is doomed eventually. Be relentless and don't let it get you down. I keep saying it again and again don't fight the algae , don't let it pull you off course. This is the most difficult phase of a tank - for anyone, even the masters. Ride this out and get through it and you will have very very few issues in the future.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Bensaf,

I hear you, but there are moments when I am disgusted with the visuals of the algae. Thanks for the calming words.

Now,
- I can handle the brown slime (diatoms) although I am afraid that I will suck out the fry when I am trying to remove some of it during water changes and that it will become so much that the plants don’t get enough lights anymore.
- Any form of hair algae doesn’t bother me too much either, at least not currently
- The green spot algae on the glass is the least of my concerns
- BUT: The BGA is the one that worries me most. As I said, it is beginning to seriously cover and choke the Xmas moss. If the moss is gone I will have a hard time replacing it as the removal of the rocks is not easy. And it is on other plants as well. I know it thrives on low Nitrate, but I for sure don’t have that. Or is it more like a low Nitrate to Phosphate proportion, say 20ppm over 4ppm? And the other reason for BGA is low oxygen, but I don’t think that would be the case as the Riccia that is nested in the moss has beautiful large bubbles and the moss is sitting in the middle of the tank. The BGA boggles my mind.

Thanks again for being a good Uncle (although slightly older and wiser brother would be more appropriate in my case),

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I don't think the ratio of N to P as much bearing on the BGA. You're sure you have enough NO3 and not just relying on the test kit?

I don't think it's low oxygen as much as low circulation that it likes. You might try a small pump to create some extra circulation in that vincinity.

If worse comes to worse a blackout will kill it off. Tom Barr has a sure fire method for dealing with the stuff. I'll try to dig it up.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Bensaf,

I cannot believe this. I was concluding this morning that there is probably not enough circulation in the tank as the large groups of Water Sprite are beginning to block the flow throughout the tank. I was about to create a drawing and asking where there would be a good place to put an additional pump when I was sucked into some work (at work). Now I am back and your statement verifies what I concluded.

So, where so I put the pump?

You can see the tank hardware setup on page one. The vertical spraybar shoots the water along the back of the tank, left to right. The one thing I would like to avoid (if possible) is flushing all the Espei fry out of the bottom right front corner where most of them hang out.

Ah, that makes me happy, let’s hope this will do it.

Thanks,

Ingo

EDIT: About having enough NO3 - I haven't used that kit in a while, I measure the plant growth .

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 11-Oct-2005 08:45

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF
Here's something that may help. One of the options for curing BGA is the pump idea I mentioned. I'm not as green as I'm cabbage looking apparently

http://www.aquariaplants.com/alqaeproblems.htm

Also note the comments on brown algae

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Will check it out in a minute,

Thanks Bensaf,

Here is the tank drawing:

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

Just another thought, what's the gph on the 2028. I thank it's like 250, obviously it's related to water current, but maybe another filter on the other side might help. Just trying to help, but I have my own problems as you know. Also the eheims rely more on biological filteration (something lacking at startup) then other models if you compare their flow rates and by their own material. They also recommend the use of AC at startup which you and I did not do.



Last edited by tetratech at 11-Oct-2005 11:11

My Scapes

tetratech,

I hear you. This was one of my thoughts a while back (before I started to set up the tank). I don’t think that another filter would help more than just a simple power head.

I theoretically should be able to run the tank without any filters, as the plants are supposed to (and I think they do) suck up all the bad stuff and any beneficial bacteria would also settle in the tank (gravel, glass, plants). I don’t have any issues related to Ammonia or Nitrite buildup (I think). I see the filter as an additional tool to allow bacteria to settle (if need be) and to take out larger particles that otherwise would float through the tank.

I have to ask though: who are “They”, Eheim? And they recommend a Hagen product (if AC means AquaClear)?

I think I will eventually buy an AC anyway as a back-up system in case the Eheim fails or when I go on vacation. But for the time being, a pump will have to do .

Nevertheless, any thought counts and I appreciate it. Maybe I am even wrong with my filter assessment.

Thanks tetratech,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I have to ask though: who are “They”, Eheim? And they recommend a Hagen product (if AC means AquaClear)?

I should have been more clear. "AC" I'm referring to activated carbon. Eheim does recommend it's use at startup until biological filteration is really going. Even Amano uses it at startup. I believe that startup phase even with the plants is different than a mature tank. If there is excess of something, I believe there has to be some reaction. I'm not being critical of Bensaf and others it's just that I don't know if the plant mass minus the biological filteration was enough to stop algae.

Look at this link from Chuck's planted Tank (I don't know Chuck or how valid is info is, but read this page on Planted Tank Startup). Go down alittle to detailed plan. He doesn't dose anything but co2 for the first 8 weeks.

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_newtank.htm

Last edited by tetratech at 11-Oct-2005 12:07

My Scapes

tetratech,

Silly me

Well, I read the article from Chuck Gadd already a long time ago and then completely forgot about it. I guess it is just another (maybe equally valid) philosophy about starting a planted tank.

If I would have to make a decision on whose advice I have to follow, I would pick Tom Barr over Chuck Gadd. It seems the two are communicating once in a while, supposedly Tom asked Chuck for help on a new Fertilizer calculator (Bensaf can tell us more as he is a member, right?).

Eheim recommends AC (Activated Carbon ) because they cannot promote the filter only for heavily planted tanks (which are the extreme exception) from the get-go. AC removes particles (good and bad) from the water column. This means that it also removes NO3 and K and PO4 and all the other goodies that we add deliberately. Not a good idea in my eyes.

Now, your Purigen is a different kind of filter. At least based on Untitled No.4, it does not remove any nutrients from the water. How it does distinct between these and the bad boys is beyond me. But I will wait to see what it does for more people. Keep on measuring your fert values (if you feed any at all).

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

This means that it also removes NO3 and K and PO4 and all the other goodies that we add deliberately. Not a good idea in my eyes.

Ah, there's the rub! See I'm getting the feeling (just a feeling) that when the plants first go in. no3, k and po4 don't mean very much. The plant has to get established first. It does this from internal sources and then goes outside. So in a newly planted tank these things stay in the WC.

I had posted this earlier in your thread. It's from Amano:

During the first week after initial set-up, plants either photosynthesis, or absorb nutrients. As the anaerobic bacteria in the filter are not fully colonized, they too will not absorb the existing nutrients in the water. Due to these factors, algae will begin to appear. By quickly absorbing the uneaten nutrients that algae will then spread wildly throughout the aquarium. How does one deal with this nuisance that systematically destroys a beautiful layout? The followings are a few tips for dealing with algae.

Key words are:
1. Plants EITHER photosynthesis OR absorb nutrients
2. Algae will spread wildly throughout the aquarium (sounds like someones tank)




Last edited by tetratech at 11-Oct-2005 15:27

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Would it be possible to add cherry/rosy barbs? They mow down hair algae like crazy!

Of course, in that big tank, you might need a large school

A.Carbon will remove metals , acids, meds etc but it won't remove No3, Po4 , Ca etc. If it did we'd never need to do water changes. In planted tanks the concern is in removing Iron and other micros we need. I still run Carbon for a few days every couple of months to give the water a good polish and remove tannins from wood and any potential toxins. It does give the water a great sparkle.

Plants can store huge reserves of nutrients like nitrogen and iron, and they will uptake a lot more then they actually "need".Problem is that they find it very very difficult to access and use those stores if the tank becomes lean, so they are of limited use. Think of it like a very fat person. If they suddenly stop eating completely can they survive on their "reserves" of fat ? No. No matter how big they are with no food in a couple of weeks they'd either be dead or very weak.

Amano gets a bit wonky with the science side of things. He's not really interested in it, more into the art and esthetics.

I don't think the problems we see in a new tank or anything to do with the nutrients remaining in the water column. It goes back to what I said earlier about algae and plant "niches". For sure when we start up a new tank it takes a few weeks for the plants to really get going. They may be putting alot of effort into the growth of new roots, replacing reserves, transplant shock, be weak from transport if ordered online etc. So the growth may not be at it's maximum, and neither will uptake of nutrients. The alage appears at this stage. BUT is that as a result of unused nutrients in the water OR because the slower plant growth is leaving a "niche" open for the alage ? I'm sure you can guess what my opinion is Think about it. We constantly have excess nutrients in the water, so why should the excess nutrients cause a problem in a new tank and not an established tank ? Factor into that the fact that we know algae doesn't need large amount of nutrients. The only logical answer to me is that it's the difference in growth rates in a new tank and an established one. Not nutrients.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

A.Carbon will remove metals , acids, meds etc but it won't remove No3, Po4 , Ca etc.
I don't know about no3 and po4, but AC does remove nh3, which of course causes Algae.

The bio filter also removes nh3 and these other nutrients that we don't have at startup, that of course is the whole idea behind the tank cycling.

We constantly have excess nutrients in the water, so why should the excess nutrients cause a problem in a new tank and not an established tank ?
No bio filter to absorb excess. Isn't the bio filter in the gravel, plants, media competing for the nutrients as well. Something that doesn't exist in an immature tank.

Factor into that the fact that we know algae doesn't need large amount of nutrients. The only logical answer to me is that it's the difference in growth rates in a new tank and an established one
Yes, the growth rates. While the plants are re-adjusting to their new home the uptake is probably not happening, so all these extra nutrients are in the water. None are being absorbed, converted, etc from the bio filter. Between slow uptake NO competition from bio or plants something has to happen. It doesn't sound like there's much benefit to EI at startup. Why throw everything in, if it's going to sit in the water column.

Be kind in your response Uncle and remember I am a Fish Master (until I get demoted)

Your treading interesting ground here. Bensaf vs The Master (And I don't mean Fish Master)



Last edited by tetratech at 12-Oct-2005 07:14

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Inkodinkomalinko – Thank you for your advice, I think I can guess what fish you like . There are 2 (maybe 3 if we count the fact that I am not too wild about barbs at this time) reasons why the mentioned options are not desirable:

1) Rosy Barbs can get up to 5.5” which is too large of a schooling fish for my stock vision
2) Cherry Barbs are loners and I would not be able to keep many of them. Their small size (and limited number) would not make much of a difference

Bensaf and tetratech – I think I am somewhere in the middle between the two of you. Both sides here show great arguments of why things could be the way they appear to be. On one hand I trust Bensaf’s experience and I think he must have done this before (right?), on the other hand I see the problems I got. About the Master, doesn’t he use an incredible expensive substrate that is loaded with nutrients and doesn’t he add Brighty Green 1 (sp?) Fertilizer to the water column? One thing is for sure, my plants have uptake from the get-go. I would not have seen this kind of growth based on stored reserves.

Well, about my tank. I went out last night and bought 2 Rio pumps (200 and 400) and placed them in various spots in the tank. I had to exchange the 400 at the LFS because it was making a grinding noise. The new one is not as noisy as the old one but clearly louder than the 200. I will continue to play with them tonight.

I also started to question if we really found the culprit (lack of current) for the BGA. I see that I am getting BGA at the intake of the Rio pump for the Reactor. Now, there is for sure a lot of current. Given that the BGA is in the middle of killing my moss I started (and sorry about that Bensaf) to treat with Maracyn, half dosage for the next 4 days. I cannot wait for a week or two until nature might (or might not) help me out, neither do I want to have a blackout in my tank.

The latest addition to the algae family is single strands that sit on the gravel, green-gray, and about 2 inches long. They are covering the front of the tank almost from end to end, not too densely (yet). Somehow, this was not how I envisioned my tank to look like.

Another thing that I begin to regret is why I even bothered to select all these plants for my tank. I should have added nothing but weeds and if they would have been killed off by the algae, so what. In the process I also would have saved quite a bit of money. But of course I wanted to have nice plants from the start, so that’a what I got . I hope this experience will someday help someone else.

Getting more Otos at the moment is also out of the picture as the LFS gets a new shipment today or tomorrow and based on general advice I am not willing to buy them right after delivery. My die-off rate is high enough (so far 40% in 3 tanks) and with all the algae crap I am not willing to also deal with my fish dying. I much rather observe them grow, like the fry in the tank. As of last night, I counted 10. The store is also supposed to get SEA today or tomorrow, but I am not sure if I want a fish that eventually will be 6” (and with the amount of food it would find in my tank it wouldn’t take long until it is that long).

That’s it for now, sorry to all the people who follow this thread for the nice (or ugly) pictures, I promise I will post some soon.

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 12-Oct-2005 08:37

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,
First off, sorry to hear about all your trials and tribulations. I know this is not what you expected, especially after spending alot of time and money on the setup as did I. The interesting thing is I have virtually no algae on any of my plants. There is some spot algae on the glass, but that's it. My tank has not gotten any clearer as of yet with the willow and purigen.

The exchange between Bensaf and me on the algae I view as a fun and healthy debate that makes FP what it is. I believe very strongly right now the startup set the stage for the algae problems. Bensaf stated with his new tank he used A thin layer of foul smelling black gunk from the old tank coupled with all those mature plants shoulder to shoulder he probably did leave his biofilter intact.

I didn't do that and I don't think you did either, I did take some gravel from an established tank put it in a bag and put it in my cansister.

The alage appears at this stage. BUT is that as a result of unused nutrients in the water OR because the slower plant growth is leaving a "niche" open for the alage
I'm not sure what Bensaf is referring to as a "niche", but one thing is certain from his above statement - NH3
If the plants aren't uptaking in the beginning than NH3 is in the water column feeding the algae. So it's possible that no3 and po4 aren't responsible and you might not get a huge nh3 spike because guess who's eating it - ALGAE.

The AC and biofilter eat nh3 we didn't have that happening. As I said Amano uses AC at startup and states that it's critical.


My Scapes

No bio filter to absorb excess. Isn't the bio filter in the gravel, plants, media competing for the nutrients as well. Something that doesn't exist in an immature tank.

Man you two are really good at adding 2 + 2 and coming out with 5 1/2

OK it's a back to school lesson for the "fish master". What nutrients do bio filters absorb ? Do they absorb Nitrates or produce nitrates. Cycle, remember Ammonia=>Nitrite=>Nitrate. So the bio filter doesn't absorb anything, it simply converts into a different form.

No connection to AC.

So what you seem to be saying is maybe your algae problem is due to an insufficient bio-filter not absorbing nutrients. Well if that's true the only nutrient not being abosorbed and lying around would be NH3. Precisely the thing I said was needed for green water. But you don't have NH3 because your test kit says so. You trust your test kit don't you (how to type sarcasm ?) ????

Guy's you need to get off the fence. You have your doubts about the method. Fine. But don't half bake it, don't keep chopping and changing it. You think extra nutrients are an issue, fine, stop dosing, give it 2-3 weeks and see what you see.All the theories can be tested easily. If you think X is a problem eliminate it, watch the results, if still have issues move onto Y !

There now, I've moved from being uncle to a groughy grandpa

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Grandpa,
Did you see the end of my post?
I'm not sure what Bensaf is referring to as a "niche", but one thing is certain from his above statement - NH3 is in the water column feeding the algae. So it's possible that no3 and po4 aren't responsible and you might not get a huge nh3 spike because guess who's eating it - ALGAE.

There's two separate issues AC and the Biofilter.
The AC does absorb NH3, yes or no?
The Biofilter (cycle) does convert NH3 to N03, yes or no?

Please have you answers by end of class!


Last edited by tetratech at 12-Oct-2005 09:22

My Scapes

Did you see the end of my post?

I only saw a red mist by the time I got that far
Actually you must have posted that while I was typing. It wasn't there when I started, honest !

The AC does absorb NH3, yes or no?

I have no idea. I would doubt it as anybody who was running a tank with AC would never have a cycle.

The Biofilter (cycle) does convert NH3 to N03, yes or no?

Of course as I already said.

Of course I'm in agreement with the last statement you made. I said from a while back NH3 is far more of a problem with algae then No3 or PO4.But if i remember rightly you dismissed that because your test kit is reading 0 NH3. Does this mean you are starting to see my point ?

What I mean by niche is that algae habitat in a different level of the eco system. With healthy growing plants there's no room, the higher order beings (plants) see to that. PLant growth stalls and there's a gap in the eco system for algae to call home. Excess nutrients (at least of the type we delibertely put in) don't really come into it so much.

This is so much more fun then school

Last edited by bensaf at 12-Oct-2005 09:35

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Dear Grandpa,

How are you today? I am fine

Could you be so nice and tell your grandchildren a nice story? How about the one where you set up your very first heavily planted tank? And don’t worry, we will stay focused when you tell us all the details as we are not sleepy yet. We for sure would like to know the ups and downs you encountered so we can learn from them once we grow up and become successful planters ourselves.

Your bratty grandchild,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The interesting thing is I have virtually no algae on any of my plants.

Most of your plants were already established from your old tank. Ingo on the other hand was starting from scratch, and who knows what they went thru before reaching him.
My set up only took a few hours so yes I probably had a better bio colony then you. Hence your relatively minor problems.

The exchange between Bensaf and me on the algae I view as a fun and healthy debate that makes FP what it is.

Me too. But I am keeping notes of the beer you 2 guys owe me
The wife thinks this is hilarious and the 3 of us need serious help or at least get rat faced drunk oonce in a while ]

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

So far, I counted 16 Guinness and a case of German Beer

And about the getting drunk together, tetratech and I live close to each other so you would have to come over here. I am sure we could arrange a nice party, or two, or three.

Ingo

BTW, congrats on the 4th star

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 12-Oct-2005 09:47

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Actually dear boy, and you'll hate me for this, there's nothing to tell. I started it up 2 years ago and tore it down on sunday. Didn't know what the hell I was doing but never ever had a serious algae problem. But then I was low light and and no Co2. As I learned and got more interested I changed to Co2 and more. No ferts at all. Then I had issues, nothing major but a lot of niggly little things.Once I started the nutrients properly and got the Co2 right everything went away nver at any problems since. That in itself convinced we that lack of nutrients is the real problem causer. Nothing since then has ever changed my mind. Only time I've seen problems or algae is when I haven't dosed.

Thank you, congrats on your 1 gold star . Tetra the "fish master" must be too chicken to show his

Man, we should be on stage.

Last edited by bensaf at 12-Oct-2005 09:52

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Had to grab a cup of green tea (I have 72g worth) but I'm ready to continue.

So the bio filter doesn't absorb anything, it simply converts into a different form.
Absorbtion, conversion what's the difference. Bottom line -It's taking something away from the algae before they can use it.

I have no idea. I would doubt it as anybody who was running a tank with AC would never have a cycle. Let's not deal in absolutes. The AC does remove NH3!

Amano:
Activated carbon serves to absorb the tank's ammonia and nitric acid from fish waste-products.

Department of Fisheries and Wildlife Sciences - Fish Farming Study:
In chemical filtration, water is pumped through a chemical media of activated carbon, These chemicals have microscopic pores that trap ammonia ions and remove them from the water.


Should I go on. Way better than school.

My Scapes

I think the discussion if Ammonia is absorbed by AC or not is not getting us anywhere.

And here are my reasons why:

- I have no Ammonia in the tank, without AC
- Plants prefer Ammonia over Nitrate, but my Nitrate is taken up
- My plants must take up the Ammonia; otherwise I would have green tea (I have all others, why not this one )

How come you have Ammonia tetratech, you even used old gravel? Not enough plants I guess. And Bensaf always said that you need loads of plants. You both are right, each in his own way .

Ingo

EDIT: Yeah tetratech, open up your stars so we can see how you shine

EDIT EDIT: And when I look at both of your AquaRank Counters

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 12-Oct-2005 10:11

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well I posted before that whole exchange. Did someone say something about stars? Not important to me.

Anyway:
LM sorry I meant LF, did you check your nh3 levels within the first week, also I think (and I'm probably wrong, but you might not detect the NH3 because the algae is using it instead of the biofilter converting and the AC absorbing.

LF - You taking on Amano and the Dept. of Fish & Wildlife too.

Last edited by tetratech at 12-Oct-2005 10:58

My Scapes

Tonight I am too tired to rant about my algae problems, it's getting boring anyway (for the audience, not me).

So I will entertain you with 2 Espei and 2 Oto pictures that I took just now. If you want to see more algae pics, let me know and I post them tomorrow.

Espei I

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Espei II

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Oto I

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Oto II

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Hey LF,
Yes, I agree we need a break from anything green. Nice pics. Is it still just the otos and espeis in the tank?



My Scapes

if anyone needs a stiff drink I do believe it is me:%)I just sat here and read through what is that 9 pages? yes I think it is 9 pages one of those things I've been meaning to catch up with but uh work has whipped my rear

Anyways Ingo the tank is looking good, makes me so envious, but I'm too chicken to go into CO2 and fertilizers, at least for the time beingmaybe soon, in say the next year:%) If and when I do I know I'll have 3 people to come and pester, a grumpy grandpa, and 2 brothers that doesn't sound right:88) but oh well who cares at this point

Just thought I'd break up the boredom of ya'll 3 (almost didn't), but it's looking great I haven't had algae problems myself except once and then it simply went away *shrugs* leslie's 10 gallon is another story, so Ingo and Ben, when ya'll are through fighting with the 125 want to come and fix Leslie's new 10 and the algae in it? Then ya'll can decorate my 29 that i've begun to redo...

Heidi

EDIT: TetraTech why are your stars so much larger than the rest of ours? and you only have gold ones5 at that did you booger up the last test

<<<is not afraid to show her 10 gold stars hml

Last edited by houston at 12-Oct-2005 22:20

"I've got a great ambition to die of exhaustion rather than boredom." Thomas Carlyle

I have nothing constructive to add, just wanted to say that you three are cracking me up.
I can imagine 3 middle-aged men (sorry tetra, just assuming, don't know how old you are) sitting in an Irish pub consuming pints of beer and having a heated debate on planted tanks and origins of different algae species. Would someone buy the movie rights?

-P

Tetra,
That AV cracked me up, got to wipe off the coffee I spluttered all over the screen

I bow to the fish master (see no sarcatic inverted commas ). I didn't know that about the AC. Ya live ya learn.

Ingo I think you're looking for attention Everytime you post pics I can't see any algae just clean healthy plants. Them Espei are nice. Is that Glosso I see ?

Being thinking about this. As tetra pointed out I used a layer of evil gunk from my old tank when starting up the new one.Tom Barr has always pushed using a thin layer of old tank mulm in the bottom of a new tank. Even with the Amano substrates he also adds a couple of chems to the bottom, forget the names, one is a strange looking white powder. These are all for the purpose of establishing good bacteria very quickly. It's more then just a cycling thing. The bacteria help out the plants, provide oxygen to the roots and aid in breaking down organic matter quickly. I learned in the later life of my tank that too much organic matter can cause strange issues.
Now I can't remember (and this thread is now too long to go back looking for things) if you added any old stuff when starting up this tank ? Plus you have a very small number of fish ATM. Rasboras and Ottos are light at the best of times, in a 125gal they won't make a dent. It wouldn't surprise me if you have no bacteria colony at all in place. This may be causing problems. Your test kit may read O NH3, but remember algae need quanities so small, way below what the average test kit can record.
Maybe if you start getting you fish stock up to normal it might make a differnce in establishing a bio colony. Of course more fish = more waste so things may hit a peak with additional ammonia getting in before the colony gets going and things balance out. Another option is adding some of those nitrfying bacteria powders, you have them there ?

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Would someone buy the movie rights?

Could be Spielbergs next epic. "War of the Algaes"

But who would play us ? I'm thinking Bruce Willis, George Clooney and Tom Cruise would be a fair representation.

Who you calling middle aged ?

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Hey now, no talking about age I refuse to get older, and if ya'll are middle age (I remember a thread about age, not algae related:%)) and ya'll two are not that much older than I am, so ya'll can't be middle age, because uh, well I just refuse to follow suit

I think if we are going to continue this discussion we need something to drink *passess out drinks to those involved*

I really had something important to say, but uh i've forgotten, damn old age

Heidi

ps ben i still owe you some dallas cowboy cheerleaders, the calendars should be in send me a snail mail if i mail it soon you might get it before Christmas 2006

"I've got a great ambition to die of exhaustion rather than boredom." Thomas Carlyle

Before I comment on all the nice entries, here is a quick shot in response to:

Everytime you post pics I can't see any algae just clean healthy plants.

My special friends living in perfect harmony

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club