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tetratech,

yes, Uruguayensis is a big sword that I plan to put on the left side of the tank (somewhere), I will have to see how all the new plants look like once they arrive. I will get 3 of the other two plants each. All my Ludwigia and Bacopa will be removed (sniff), I think. That will leave me with very few stems.

Rotala grew very well for me in my 29G at 40W, so about 1.3wpg. If all goes well this weekend though it will be bye bye for it, as it got stringy and thin. The Bacopa will move in its place (I have 65W on the tank now), although the whole tank will change in its plant positioning.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Rotala grew very well for me in my 29G at 40W, so about 1.3wpg

That's good to hear, but why is it stringy and thin. Did you not want to bother replanting tops or did you do that and it still didn't grow well. What other conditions was it growing in. (Excel, ferts, etc.)

My Scapes

tetratech,

I never took out existing stems, all I did was to add new cuttings to increase the size of the group (that is the main reason for the stringy part). They develop a bigger (not giant) root system and I didn’t like the idea of having a big mess in the water column.

Ferts etc.: Any condition was fine. Initially I only had Flourish Excel, Iron, and Flourish and I never dosed on a schedule. Then I added Flourish Potassium, and later Flourish Nitrate. In the end (now) I add only Flourish Excel and my dry elements from the 125G setup (less dosage) and only once every 2 weeks (too infrequent, I know, but I have been busy with this tank).

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

O.K. Thanks!

I think your on a good path by going with the look of your right tank.

There really isn't a right or wrong, it's what's gonna make you happy when you pull up that chair and look at your tank. You have alot of space to fill up so your job is definitely more difficult than mine. I think when you setup that rock valley that was more "Amano-like", but the rest is more "Dutch" I think you have to go one way or other other.

My Scapes

Just goes to show you what a real challange it is to aquascape and get a unifying flow or theme in a tank as large and long as a 125. When i was looking through your log for bensaf's remarks re: trimming plants I noticed i was thinking to myself that if (when ) I someday get a tank that large I'm just going to fill it with huge pieces of branchy driftwood - maybe a sword or two - and have it as a large SA cichlid tank. Seems MUCH easier to hardscape than to aquascape with plants. If you had a big ol' piece of DW in there, or more extensive rock work it probably would make things much easier.

I give you all the credit in the world for trying, LF.

Last edited by NowherMan6 at 17-Nov-2005 13:59

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Back in the saddle!

Thanks NowherMan6,

Driftwood was my original plan, but I cannot get my hands on any decent sized piece for the life of it. And believe me, I tried hard.

I have a few more of the same rocks at home and I am considering to add some of them this weekend. The problem there is the limited height of the rocks, none is as tall as the Rock Valley group.

Thanks again,

Ingo

And tetratech, Amano-style - Dutch-style, I call mine the Ingo-style .

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 17-Nov-2005 14:07

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The Crispus is a good choice. Definitely a background plant and a space filler. Lightning fast grower, expect a new leaf to hit the surface every couple of days. In good conditions it has a beautiful shade of green and a nice soft texture. Had one in the old tank, but it didn't fit into the new set up unfortunately.

The Uruguaysenis is a real nice sword, one of my favourites, still have one. Not a tank buster by any means, but quite variable depending on conditions. I actually like to use it as a mid ground plant as I like the way the narrow upright leaves show off other plants to good effect. You'll have to see what size you get when it arrives.

Lucens is a real nice crypt. Get's a lot taller then the normal Willisii so it's not a foreground plant. Plant it tight, 3 plants at least together, don't spread it out too much. It's a slow grower (it'll take a few weeks before it does anything) but give it time and plant as above and it will turn into a beautiful thick bunch in a few months.

Going back a bit, nobody answered your plant id questions. The stem plant is strange. Looks a little like Bacopa but at the same time doesn't. Definitely nor Caroliania, maybe Monnieri . But there&'s a voice in the back of my head screaming Rotala Macrandra "Green" variety , but I'm trying to ignore the voices screaming in my head.

The Crypt is Retrospiralis.

As to the aquascape. Well of course you like the right side better , it's more natural, and uncluttered then the other side. It's quieter. Not mad keen on Corkscrew Val. It's too "gimmicky" looking. Something really thin leaved like Val. Nana or Natans, Cyperus Helfiri . Tall crypts like Balansae or Spiralis would be about the same width as the Corscrew but much more aged and natural looking.

As for the left side well I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's damn near impossible to 'scape a tank with plants only. There needs to be an anchor to build the scape around, driftwood or rocks. The left side has no anchor . You don't need the perfect piece of wood, a few crappy branchy pieces can be built up. A big percentage of the wood should be hidden anyway. You can try something with smaller rocks , moss them up , anubias in the gaps etc, you just need something "solid" looking. Failing that bigger plants like Swords/Nymphaea can be used and the stems built around them . Lastly a previous suggestion bigger, wider more striking stem plants in a thick group would help - Limnophilia Aromatica, Ludwigia Cuba , Ammania Gracillis etc.


Last edited by bensaf at 17-Nov-2005 22:00

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Welcome back Boss ,

Hope you had a good time.

To sum up my response to your entry:

You are right, and you are right, and, hm, you are right

I am not too wild about the Corkscrew Vals either, but you have to work with what you got. I was seriously trying to get some Cyperus Helferi, but to no avail. It would be my first choice. I might use the Aponogeton Crispus in its place, will have to see how that looks though.

Driftwood is always a big problem here, all pieces are small and if you find a long one it is also very thick (not to say ugly). I have maybe one piece at home that I could plug in there, but I think it would look lost in this big of a tank. I will try to add more of my rocks, I played with them last night (arranging some to a group) but it didn’t look all that good. An additional concern with placing wood/rock on the left hand side (more than the 2 that I have already) was that it would create a second focal point. This morning though it dawned on me that a 6 foot long tank should be able to handle more than one main area. Do you (all of the guys) agree?

Bensaf, I’m glad that you like my new plant pickings, most of them are based on your advice anyways .

I am with you when you assumed that it is Monnieri, I don’t think it would be a Macandra ‘Green’ as the leaves are so much smaller (than the red Macandra next to it) and it seems to grow side branches everywhere, like a bush.

About the Retrospiralis: maybe – I have seen them in Amano’s first book, but there he doesn’t mention plant names. No matter what, it looks very nice . It currently is too shaded in my tank, but all this will change on Saturday anyways (I hope).

Thanks,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

As for the left side well I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's damn near impossible to 'scape a tank with plants only. There needs to be an anchor to build the scape around, driftwood or rocks. The left side has no anchor .
Well they do that with the "Dutch" style but as I said the plants need to be in tighter groups and then if you want the variety you pave some "streets" from mid to front. But yes, a piece of rock here and there will do wonders. Same think with Matty's tank. [link=http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Planted%20Aquaria/52902.html?200511161838 ]http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Planted%20Aquaria/52902.html?200511161838 [/link]
He needs hardscape desperately.

My Scapes

Gang,

I am currently in another low again,

The closer I get to Saturday’s replanting the more unsure I get of how I would do that. I have too many ideas in my head but I am afraid that I will end up with just another mixed-up tank again (would be the 3rd time around).

But there is no turning back because a) the plants are coming, b) the tank needs something done, and c) I don’t want to .

I guess I am just trying to prepare myself for the fact that at the end of Saturday I am not going to have an Amano tank (go figure ).

Tetratech,

What do you think about the “not-one-but-multiple” focus idea?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I don’t want to

That's the spirit!

I really feel like the left side would benefit from a big honkin' piece of driftwood, something like this]http://cgi.ebay.com/DRIFTWOOD-CRAFTS-GARDENING-AQUARIUM-TERRARIUM-BIRDS_W0QQitemZ7725677319QQcategoryZ66790QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem[/link] or [link=this

It can be overwhelming, but ya gotta do it until you get it right. Or maybe you don't, and just do it so that there's always a little something left to be done, that way you won't get bored. Either way, be creative. You've already got the plant health part of it down pat, that's the hard part - now you just need to find a way to make them look as nice as possible.

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Back in the saddle!

LF, Does this goal statement still hold true for you?

The focus of this tank is neither to win an aquascaping contest nor to win a fish contest. I would like to create an environment where I can play with lots of plants and enjoy the various fish that it will house as I believe this concept will give me the most pleasure for the buck.

If not, take out your plants, take out rock valley get yourself a big piece of driftwood. Get your kids and wife out of the room. Now close your eyes and drop it in. Pause for "big splash" Now have fun rescaping around the driftwood. It's that simple. I really think you will be amazed at how it comes together.

Nowher, yes he does need a big piece of driftwood, but if he simply puts dw on the left and leaves rock valley on the right it will look to contrived.

My Scapes

Thanks NowherMan6 for the encouraging words.

I am a major chicken when it comes to buying driftwood that I cannot see in person. To give you an example:

The first link you provide looks like a great piece. But it was fished out of the ocean? How did it get there? How long was it truly submersed (in other words, is it underwater ready)? What is the bug and fungus situation on it?

The second link could be nice too. But the owner doesn’t even mention (or I didn’t see it) the usage as an aquarium piece. Also, it looks like it had been rotting for a while, so will it fall apart soon? And again, what is the bug and fungus situation on it and how long was it truly submersed?

As I said, chicken .


Tetratech – You know how hard it is to find this “large” piece of driftwood here in our area.

“I would like to create an environment where I can play with lots of plants and enjoy the various fish that it will house as I believe this concept will give me the most pleasure for the buck.”

Well, you got me there . First off, the Espei had their own plan as to how “various” my fish will be. And all this fuss about left side, right side, plants in, over, and out again – that is my way of playing . As much as it seems that I get very frustrated sometimes as much I enjoy pulling myself out of these phases (with the help of you guys, thanks for that).

Thanks again,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

I was in aquarium adventure last week. They had tons of driftwood. I think you need a big piece to lay down that will take up a considerable amount of real estate then you could plant in groups all along the back sides. You could also compliment the dw with the rocks you already have.

There's got to be an aquatics store closer to you that would have large pieces of dw.

My Scapes

but if he simply puts dw on the left and leaves rock valley on the right it will look to contrived.

::looks at own aquarium with rocks on left, DW on right::

What's wrong with contrived?

But seriously, any aquascaped aquarium looks contrived to a certain extent. That's the whole point of aquascaping!What's the opposite of contrived anyway? Is it "natural?" Surely dutch style aquascapes look contrived, with their neat bushels of plants here and there...

Maybe then go with more rock buildup on the other side?


As for the DW, I've bough DW off of ebay many many times. Never gotten a bad piece. In any case, you boil it, bake it, scrub it like mad. Sometimes it leaches, sometimes alittle bit of fungus grows but that's normal. I wouldn't take a piece out of the ocean, but as the nearest bodies of water to me are the Hudson River, the East River and Newark bay I don't really have a choice as to where i get my driftwood

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Back in the saddle!

Hudson River, the East River and Newark
Ooch!

Well I'm talking major rock on one side, major dw on the other. I think you need to blend both in. I think LF and I did say something about your white rocks.



My Scapes

NowherMan6,

You are in our (tetratech and mine) area as well?

How funny . Are you in NJ or NY?

And have you ever tried to boil and/or bake a 26 inch long, 18 inch deep, and 16 inch high piece of driftwood?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

All the driftwood I ever bought is that dark malaysian stuff. I soaked it for a few days and put it in. I never had a problem.



My Scapes

I have thought about boiling a really bit chunk of DW before. I just never got around to it. At home we have this giant stainless steal tub. I think it used to be used for housing milk or something.. Any ways it is really big and I thought about filling it with water and lighting a fire under it for a few days. Ok maybe not that long but for a while at least.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

So do I tetratech,

I just got one piece this week and soak it right now for the 20G. Problem is that the ones I can buy in my area are all too small to even make a dent in my 125.

One day I will get a nice piece and then I will drive you all crazy again with "Where do I put it in the tank and what plant goes where", just the usual .

Ingo

EDIT: Wingsdlc - didn't see your post until I had posted this one. I guess the wife would have a problem if I buy a giant pot, put it in the yard, and make a big fire underneath . BTW, there are people that say boiling is actuallyy bad for the wood as its cell structure gets destroyed.

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 18-Nov-2005 11:07

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

When you guys talk about boiling DW are you talking about DW you find when your like walking your dog. Cause I found some nice pieces that would probably look nice but I was afraid to use them in my tank. Not sure what types of wood is suitable to put under water long-term.

My Scapes

tetratech,

All you ever wanted to know about finding driftwood is right [link=Here]http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Aquascaping/63086.html" style="COLOR: #ff6633[/link].

Hope this helps,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

Yeah I understand what you are saying. I really don't know how we got the giant pot but we have it. In fact I don't know where we get most of the stuff that is laying around my parents house come to think of it.......

Personaly I think the boiling thing really depends on the type of wood and how long you boild it for. But that is just me.

Be on the look out I have a bunch of new pictures I am going to post of my 40 gallon. I would really like your guys's in put. Thanks



55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

And have you ever tried to boil and/or bake a 26 inch long, 18 inch deep, and 16 inch high piece of driftwood?

Point taken...


But still, i think you can make due with any kind of DW you find. I'd be wary of stuff that just fell off a tree, but I've heard of people finding older pieces near a stream or in a woodsy area and using them.

And im in NJ, northeast NJ. The closest really good LFS I know of is Tropaquarium on rt. 35 in eatontown, over an hour away...

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Back in the saddle!

I'm sensing road trip

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Wingsdlc – I guess sometimes its better not to know where things come from . Hey, I am sure we (at least I am) are pleased to give you our 2 cents, but don’t assume that we know what we are talking about . Just let us know when and where we should look.

NowherMan6 – I am in north NJ too (somewhere there), the closest decent LFS is Absolutely Fish on Rt. 46, about 10 min away.

tetratech – Road Trip, I am coming with you .

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 18-Nov-2005 12:11

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

Oh I know we are all full of it. For the record that is. Any ways here is my updated stuff.

Click this.....I know you want to......it is just my thread don't worry....I have been starring at the computer screen for too long....


Edit:to, too, two, 2.....sometime I really hate English!

Last edited by Wingsdlc at 18-Nov-2005 13:02

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

46W? That's actually not too far from me, maybe 20 mins depending on tunnel traffic and traffic on rt. 3. I'll have to check it out sometime, I just saw their website and it looks pretty awesome - thanks for the suggestion

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Back in the saddle!

Yo, Nowher are youse ever on LONG GUY-LAND?

If you are check out Aquarium Adventure in Garden City. 11,000 square foot all aquatics. Here's the website.

http://www.aquariumadventure.com/

Little_Fish has been there, but he was kinda in a hurry, something about the wife and kids. I got alot of my stuff there including my tank, driftwood, many fish, etc.

My Scapes

NowherMan6,

Yeah, go there and check it out. There are a few employees that are good and willing (and have the knowledge) to help you out. Unfortunately, the rest of them have no clue but pretend they do. Here is a conversation snippet that I picked up there earlier in the week between sales guy (SG), owner (O), and a customer (C) with a 10G, standing in front of a tank where the C is getting ONE White Cloud:

O to C: Hey, how about a frog?
C: Don’t they jump out?
O: No, these stay in the water.
O: What else is in the tank?
C: (forgot the exact listing he gave, but basically ONE of each kind, for example one was a tetra)
O: That’s good, what are you getting today?
C: This one and a Bumble Bee?
O: (explains that they need salt then asks SG) Why did you not tell him about that?
SG: I didn’t know.

Then I had to go away, partially because I had to laugh and partially because I got mad that the O thinks one fish of each kind is a good thing.

Otherwise be warned, they are on the expensive side of things. But even with all the ranting, it is my main LFS and in good to very good shape (plants and fish).

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I've been keeeping up with your progress from the start Ingo, just wanted to poke my head in and say that i'm enjoying reading and very impressed by your tank.
I havent said anything before now because I am not an ideas person! Keep up the good work.

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Before you criticize someone walk a mile in their shoes. That way you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

Yo, Nowher are youse ever on LONG GUY-LAND?

Actually my old man lives out there on the island, but when Im out there it's usually to do family stuff, not so much aquarium shopping

But i'll definetely check out that place on 46. Tropaquarium on 35 is VERY pricey with livestock, and they dont have a great deal of plant selection, mostly cichlid and reef stuff. Staff are very friendly and knowledgable though, so that makes up for it. Also, the only plants they sell are anubias barteri and java fern, and they sell HUGE specimens for dirt cheap prices. Java's with twenty something stems, maybe 18-20 inches long each were being sold for 4 dollars. Big mother anubias plants for the same price. I guess they dont know better...

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Back in the saddle!

Gang,

I am too tired to write a book tonight, I worked on tanks for 12 hours today.

Unfortunately, around Noon I found out that the plants for the 125G will arrive on Tuesday ant not today. It was too late to stop the process as the 29G was already changed and that set off a chain reaction and as such I had to mess with the 20G and the big guy as well.

The Bacopa is gone, it is now in the 29G, other plants have been moved (some are trimmed).

Please be so kind and have a look at other tanks and give me THERE a comment on what you think, as you know I value your input highly.

Here is [link=The 29G Link]http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Aquascaping/61406_3.html " style="COLOR: #ff6633[/link].
Here is [link=The 20G Link]http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Aquascaping/63901_2.html" style="COLOR: #ff6633[/link].

And because it was such a nice day , here is a picture of this tank now. What do you think?

Good night,

Ingo

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hey LF just dropping in - Now that you have no algae complaints I tend to be all out of suggestions. I just think that your colorful plants need to grow in a bit. In a couple months you can have some eyecatching groups of colors.

The only thing I can think of is that I'd like something contrasting behind rock valley to create depth. The two rocks with java moss tend to blend in with the vals behind. That isn't even that major though, because in person I bet it looks great.

I really like the shape of the horizon in your tank. Everything looks really healthy....

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

You must be tired! All those changes in one 12 hr stint, it would knock me out for sure, but I really think it has paid off, all the tanks look great. I want to be sure, the plant that is covering the 'ground' in front of the valley is glosso? It is not the one that looks like grass, but has more rounded leaves? Would it need more light than my aquq-glo flourescent bulb in my 25g? I have no idea what the wpg is and I don't use CO2. But I do need a ground cover and I like that one the most so far. Great 'scaping, I'll be checking back often to steal more ideas. Oops, was that in print? ]

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Lindy – you keeping up with this thread and giving me the thumb up is honor enough for me.

NowherMan6 – I inspected a newly opened LFS in my area, called The Fish Tank, in Saddle Brooks on Friday night. They are not ready yet as I believe they still have to learn a few things about stocking Fish and Plants. Plants are few and not in the best shape, fish tanks are mostly bare bottom stuffed to the rim with very young fish. For example, they have 3 tanks with Cories (and that is all they have on the label, no species name, all are just Cories) that no larger than ¾ of an inch.They are cheap though, but that alone is not a reason for me to buy something.

Matty – I hear you when you speak of contrast around Rock Valley. I will have to wait and see what the new plants that I should receive on Tuesday look like. Then, another replant will get on the way.

luvmykrib – You are welcome to “steal” all the ideas you seem feasible for you, mine didn’t come to me out of the blue either . Yes, this is Glosso and I doubt that it would grow nicely in a 25G with only one T8 fluorescent light. If you happen to find it cheap in a store, go ahead and buy a little bit and give it a try, but don’t be disappointed if it doesn’t work out. I remember trying it in my 29G when I had about 1.3wpg in that tank. It grew a little and I took it out again. One problem there was that I didn’t show enough patience, maybe I should have waited longer.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Gang,

It’s funny how things happen. I just mentioned in tetratech’s log how well my Espei school (trying to compete with tetratech’s Cardinals ).

Well, it turns out today is an important day in my Espei fry development. At least 10 have joined the big guys and school together. Oh how wonderful the world can be (until the next disaster strikes ).

I will try to get a shot later, for the time being I am doomed to laundry folding and child care, payback for 12 hours of planting yesterday .

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I am doomed to laundry folding and child care, payback for 12 hours of planting yesterday



Pause to catch breath.



My Scapes

tertatech - you know nothing is for free

Week 8 Update,

Another, although smaller, replant has happened this weekend, it was supposed to be a big one but the plants I expected from the online provider will not arrive until Tuesday. Their excuse did sound a little shady; something about the Amano Pearl Grass needs still to grow. What? I didn’t know 2 days make such a big difference in this plant’s life.

Anyways, because of this I did not perform a water change, I will do one on Tuesday evening (and then again next Saturday to get back on the regular track).

The small changes performed include the removal of the Bacopa (now in the 29G), the addition of 2 rocks on the left half, and general trimming activities.

The Espei are just great, although the number of fry begins to frighten me. At least 80 are swimming around there, like they have never heard of the fact that they are hard to breed, maybe I should tell them .

Here is a summary of tank development on a biweekly base.

First off week 0, means the day I planted the tank:

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Next week 2, the fast growers (Wisteria and in particular Water Sprite), have taken over:

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Week 4, most of these fast growers have been removed and first attempts of design are starting:

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Week 6, more moves towards the generation of a design are under way, although not too successful (yet):

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Week 8 (today), plants have been moved around a lot since week 6, hopefully for the better:

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Definitely starting to see some nice things.

I would keep all below white line. Everything above out.
That's what I see anyway, you might have something else in your head.




tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

I 2nd tetratech. I really like the used of flowing lines.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Thanks tetratech and Wingsdlc for the input, I appreciate it. I think it is a little too early to think about a final layout as new plants are still to come and they are gonna change the scape again anyways. Hang in there with me until we got these and then shoot away.

…, you might have something else in your head.

Yeah, hot air

I thought I might share some close-ups with you before I go to sleep.

A double blossom on one of my Anubias Nana

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

A close-up of some Red Rubin Sword leaves

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Amano Pearl Grass behind and next to the still to be identified red thing

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The Glosso carpet if front of (and between) Rock Valley

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:


Come to think of it. If I had to suggest a setup to someone with a small tank (maybe a 29G) who has all the tools (lights and CO2), this would be a great tank in itself.

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 20-Nov-2005 19:53[/font]

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Last one, Glosso pearling

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

*craves the high light setup*

.....oh for there to be glosso....

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Ya know, I've never gotten my anubias to flower. Ive had tem right from the start, and not once have they flowered. i guess anubias hate me and my water. wargh

Lookin good as always, that glosso running up the rock alley is really quite nice, very effective.

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Back in the saddle!

Guys,

Thanks, not much going on here today, I am rather busy at work.

But anyways:

Matty, I am trying the Glosso now in my 20G, I will keep you posted on success. Lighting is 2x20W fluorescent, height 12”.

NowherMan6, what can I say, I just have the magic tank . Espei having fry like rabbits and anubias flowering on regular intervals.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hey LF,

In tetras thread I just noticed you said something about Amano... which made me go online and look at some of his stuff. Well, call it inspiration or what have you, but i just got an idea for your tank, looking back at the most recent picture.

I think someone already pointed this out, but the right side of your tank with the rock valley already looks amano-ish... so maybe just apply the same rules to the other side. make the rock valley your high point, and just slope down the other side. Add bigger rocks so that it slopes downhill, and allow the rocks to stand out more. Cover them with more moss and keep the tenellus bushy as it is, and have the back planted with more vals. I guess what I'm getting at, and again maybe this has already been said a few hundred posts ago, is that to unify the whole tank you have to apply the same rules from the one side to the other. As it is there's a completely different set of plants on the left. It seems like it's so much more difficult to make it work witht he "two-tank" look

Anyway, that's how I just had a vision of it in my head. Don't know if I explained it right... And it's not at ALL to say it doesnt look great now... just wanted to share the thought.



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NowherMan6,

I hear you. But that would also mean that I would have to say good-bye to all my tall plants, even the new Aponogeton Crispus and Ech. Uruguayensis, maybe also the Cryptocoryne Lucens would not fit anymore.

I don’t know, maybe I go for tetratech's chaos arrangement, although I don’t really know what that means .

Ingo

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I don’t know, maybe I go for tetratech's chaos arrangement, although I don’t really know what that means
]:|
What?

It's really whatever floats your boat. I happen to like dramatic arrangements, which is simple, but striking and the fish do the rest. Someone referred to it as almost a
"Zen" affect which I don't totally disagree with. I think Bensaf and LF, like more color and variety. Nowher, not sure which way you go, "not that there's anything wrong with that"

Last edited by tetratech at 21-Nov-2005 15:29

My Scapes

No tetratech,

You once mentioned something about Amano - chaos - no focus point.

What was that again?

Ingo

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Hmmm am deeply Jealous.

I do like Rock Valley, its like a whole little fantasy world.......

still jealous, can't think of anything constructive to say about future plans. Just keep posting pictures, they give me hope as the tank keeps getting better and better, maybe mine will!

GFG

Last edited by goldfishgeek at 21-Nov-2005 18:25

_______________________________________
Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey S. Firestone

GFG,

Thanks for your comment. The owner of a tank is most of the time his/her own worst critic , except of course if you have FP buddies like tetratech, Matty, Bensaf, Megil, NowherMan, upikabo, (myself), and so forth . I can tell you than I am not happy yet (although I am not too sad either).

I can’t wait to see the plants that I get today (hopefully). I am sure it will throw off all plans that I had and make me reconsider the whole layout yet again . But I enjoy these “games” and I don’t mind constantly messing with the layout, as long as it doesn’t harm my fish and the plants.

And yes, I promise you that your tank will be more to your likings once you put the effort in to foster the plants and to arrange the aquascape (as you already started in your [link=Own Thread]http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Planted%20Aquaria/66485.html?200511220446" style="COLOR: #ff6633[/link]).

Thanks again,

Ingo

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You once mentioned something about Amano - chaos - no focus point.

Yes, nature's random disorder

My Scapes

That's what I was looking for

nature's random disorder

Sounds like something you could call any settled tank, no matter how the plants are (mis)arranged .

Unfortunately I am sure there is an order in any disorder as well.

Ingo

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A double blossom on one of my Anubias Nana

How long did a take you to see your first flower?

My Scapes

The first one that was grown completely in my tank - about 5 to 6 weeks.

The first one over all - 3 seconds 2 of the 5 Anubias came with flowers already, but they are long gone (within a week). Also, Otos like to nibble at them.

Ingo

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Nowher, not sure which way you go, "not that there's anything wrong with that"

Say WHAT???????

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Back in the saddle!

"Nowher, not sure which way you go, "not that there's anything wrong with that" "

Scaping-wise

My Scapes

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[font color="#C00000"]I AM AT PEACE[/font]

At least for the moment ..

But if you think it has something to do with me being happy about the Aquascaping, you are wrong. But keep on reading and you will find out. Events of this evening step by step:

First off, the plants arrived today, but what a disappointment. Unlike usual when ordering from this provider, each specimen was really small. I did not get the Amano Pearl Grass (which was why they said it couldn’t be shipped on Friday, I knew that was wrong) instead I got a check for the pearl grass money and a free tiny Red Mellon Sword (nice).

So I decided I will plant these guys anyways, and what can I say, 4 hours and 4 beers later I was done (including water change). So sorry, I am a little tipsy right now .

Here is the moment of Zen: while doing the water change, the fish had less and less space to swim and eventually older fry joined up with the adults. Tetratech, you gotta get a large school. I had tears in my eyes, it is sooooooo pretty. You cannot really capture a moment like this on camera, but I tried.

The details of the changes will be following tomorrow, too drunk and too tired right now (had no dinner either).

Here is a shot of lots of fry with adults

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Grrr,

Well, here it is

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Here is the finished tank

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Awwww, what an awesome photo of the Espei family reunion! Love it!

-P

So I guess you're going with the Amano look as NowherMan6 suggested, eih?

-P

Defintiely looking better. I'm still not crazy about the tall plant right next to the corkscrews, but that's me.

Now if I could only get my cardinals to act like your espei. Oh what a thanksgiving it would be.

Last edited by tetratech at 23-Nov-2005 04:52

My Scapes

You should try to make them change the rules on schooling fish around these parts: minimum 6 for the fishs' health, minimum 30 for stunning visual effect

Happy thanksgiving all, I probably won't get back on here before tomorrow!

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Back in the saddle!

upikabu, tetratech, and NowherMan,

Thanks for the input. Tetratech, I assume you mean the Rotala Macandra, right? It is a sensitive plant that requires loads of light to be beautiful (like mine ) and I am afraid if I move it too often I am going to kill it. In any way, I will refrain from any major change until the new plants have grown to a recognizable size. It will be an interesting period to see all these little plants jump up.

Am I going Amano? I don’t know, I actually think that I don’t have the knowledge and right plants to do that. Maybe I will create a style called “Poor Man’s Amano Tank” whereby poor is the equivalent of inexperienced .

Can anyone tell me more about the Red Melon Sword? This was the freebee they gave me because they didn’t sent the plants on Friday (as I said earlier, they told me that the Amano Pearl Grass has to grow some more, and then it wasn’t shipped anyways).

Yeah, the schooling is lovely. Most of the time they don’t school together yet, I think it is simply a question of speed as the grown-ups race from left to right and back and the little one are still to weak to follow. At least they have gained the confidence to hang with the big guys without worrying of being eaten.

Well, here are some pictures I took during yesterdays replanting.

First, the new plants in a 2G bucket, I hope one can see that they are tiny. In here are 3 Crypt Lucens, 3 Apon Crispus, 1 Ech Uruguayensis, and the freebee Red Melon Sword.

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Here are the Narrow Leaf Ludwigia layed out for replanting

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A shot of the right side of the tank, nothing has changed there.

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Here is a picture of the left tank () where all the changes took place. The Ludwigia was removed and relocated to the right, a little more like a street. In the way back just in front of the Reactor, and invisible in the picture because of its size, is the Ech Uruguayensis. On the right of the filter intake (in the back) are the 3 Apon Crispus lined up (probably too close to each other). In front of them are the Crypt Lucens arranged, behind and between the 2 rocks on the left. The red melon sword is hidden behind the Crypt Albida (or Retrospiralis? ). All the way on the left are the Alternanthera reineckii "roseafolia” lined up, mostly obscured by the second Anubias Barteri that I moved over there. All Pennywort has been removed – This might actually bring the end of the Espei breeding season as almost no brad leaved plants are left.

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Here is a closer shot of the middle section of the left tank. I think this one could make a nice small tank in itself as well. You can see the Anubias double blossom on the right.

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Very nice, I think it's starting to look very pretty. When I first saw the bowl I thought you were starting to prepare for thanksgiving.

BTW - Have you stopped dosing excel, everything looks very clean and clear in the pics.


My Scapes

tetratech,

No – no turkey in the bucket

Yeah, I have stopped using Excel after only one week of dosing, about 11 days ago. Yesterday I noticed some algae on my plants again, not too a point that bothers me too much (but more than 4 strings). The one that hasn’t come back so far is the BBA, which was the one I was concerned with the most as it seemed to choke plants to death.

Maybe you have noticed that from the pictures, but I rearranged my Reactor and filter intake to be side by side, following your lead (and Megil’s excellent explanation of its benefits) with having the CO2 being sucked intot the filter first. I wonder if I will notice any difference.

Ingo

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Nothing going on in my log in 2 days, that’s a record .

Well, there isn’t much to report anyways as no new drama has occurred and no good news either.

I would like to get your advice on a little scape change that I would like to perform tomorrow (if anyone even reads this thread until then). I would like to expand the Glosso area to the left and right as indicated by the red lines. The close-ups (left and right areas) show that the plant is already growing there anyways, but it cannot get enough light as it is shaded by the Dwarf Sag / Pygmy Chain Sword mix.

What do you think? Good or bad idea?

Ingo

Here is the whole area:

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Just the left with Glosso

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Just the right with Glosso

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Ingo,

I am not quite sure which would look better, the tenellus
right now look very nice, but the glosso carpet look s small
an dartificial. I can understand why you would want to expand
the glosso carpet, I personally would only expand it towards
the left side of the tank (when you are facing it left) since
I think the right side tenellus looks very impressive overall
and is partly what made that side of the tank so nicely
balanced.

HTH,
Megil.

EDIt: spell and grammar check >.<

Last edited by Megil Tel'Zeke at 25-Nov-2005 14:24

Thanks Megil,

I haven't even thought about the possibility to extend only one side. That's where my symmetry thinking limits my imagination. But that is a good point.

One of the reasons why I want to extend the area is because the sags / swords are sprouting out all over and based on my experience with my smaller tank I know that in no time I would have a dense, 4 to 5 inches tall, foreground, all the way to the glass. I am not so sure if this would look all that great. Thinning these guys out is a full time job .

I guess I could give your suggestion a try, better to take out less and still have the ability to continue rather than more and later regretting it.

Thanks,

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 25-Nov-2005 14:19

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Gang,

I performed my 50% water change today (weekly updates will follow tomorrow) and thought I share one picture with you. It is a close-up of my Xmas Moss about 30min after the change. The only thing that has changes from previous similar water changes is the fact that I added 50ml of Flourish Excel immediately after the refill. Last time I added Excel it seemed as if it has the opposite effect and actually reduced the plant bubbling. I don’t know why today was different .

Ingo

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Weekly Tank update – Week 9

Time flies by when you are having fun, I cannot believe the tank is already up for this long.

Anyways, not too much has happened in the last week, I got a few new plants on Tuesday and spent 4 hour adding them to the tank. To do so, some plants had to go (Pennywort) and others had to be moved (Narrow Leaf Ludwigia) yet again. The new plants are tiny compared to the size they hopefully will reach some day (soon) and as such it looks like there is a wide open back on the left tank side.

I thinned out some of the Dwarf Sags and Pygmy Chain Swords on the left front of Rock Valley as I would like this area to fill with Glosso. After the 50% water change I added 50ml of Flourish Excel as some algae is making its return to the tank. That means that either my parameters are not fine tuned yet or that the replanting (and addition of 2 rocks) on Tuesday caused some imbalance (less likely). I am not planning on adding Excel every day and will keep an eye open to see if this one-time-dose has any effect.

Now on to the weekly tank pictures, this time week 0, 3, 6, and 9. After that I will add 5 detail shots, so overall there will be 9 photos to keep you entertained .

Initial Setup, week 0. I remember that I thought I had quite a large plant load .

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Week 3. By then some plants were already being trimmed as they got too large and shaded others.

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Week 6. The beginning of the major replanting that was to follow in the next 3 weeks.

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Week 9 (this weekend). All background plants seem to be rather equally in height, except for hole right in front of the hardware. That’s where all the new plants are.

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Some details. First the Rotala Macandra, which, although not nicely arranged (I know tetratech, I know ), has some very nice color to it.

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Next the Rock Valley where the Gloss is getting very dense. Do I have to prune this plant? Never thought of that . I wish it would start to fill the area in the depth of the valley (where you can still see the bare gravel) but maybe there is not enough light for it, we will see.

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Next a shot centered around the Crypt Retrospiralis. On the left you can make out the Apon Crispus in the way back and the Crypt Lucens in front of it. The Red Melon Sword is hidden behind the Retrospiralis, I guess I will have to replant it when it grows a little taller (I didn’t plan for that plant, it was a freebee). The Uruguayensis Sword is just off the picture to the left, too small anyways to be seen.
Also, you see some of the older fry hanging in the current with the big guys .

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Here is a shot looking into the tank from the left. Sorry that the quality is not all that great, I don’t have a lot of space there to hold the camera. If you look carefully you can see a very small green plant on the left front, just behind the second Alternanthera reineckii stem. That’s the Uruguayensis Sword.

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Last but not least, another close-up of my Glosso bubbling, I just cannot get enough of this. Also, there is a maybe 2 weeks old fry on the left.

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LF,
Nice pics, I really like the Rotala Macandra and your pics are conviencing me to maybe try and incorporate some into my setup. Where did you originally get yours?

I personally would extend the glossy left and right and let it kinda of slowly blend with the chain swords into the corners. That would bring the whole foreground together and than you could add little things here and there at different depths.




My Scapes

Thanks tetratech,

I know Amano uses the Rotala Macandra in quite a few setups to add some color to it. But he uses it mostly rather hidden in the back where only the upper parts are visible (maybe because the stems are not too pretty when planted densly).

I am with you on the Glosso spreading out, but I will take it slowly to avoid “empty” gravel areas in the front in the process. Getting the Swords and Sags out in the front is quite a challenge as they are interwoven with the Glosso chains. And the fact that the Sags have underground runners doesn’t help either. You think you are pulling out one plant and actually cause a chain reaction somewhere else and before you know it all Glosso is lose as well.

Ingo

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More pictures from the fry frontier.

Here are about 20 some in the tank corner.

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And here a closer shot of a baker’s dozen in formation.

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all the plants look fantastic Little Fish. and as for the fry wow, they look amazing. I have always wanted to do that, get one type of fish and see it populate the tank. I have all the self control of ...... well I can't think of anything that actually has less self control then me. except maybe me in a shoe shop. (bought three pairs of boots yesterday still having shoppers guilt)

I just love your tank. think its brillant the way you have learnt so much about the hobby and can answer all my questions!

really good job. I can't believe you can hardly see the rocks at the valley bit.


GFG,*looks at her tanks *

Last edited by goldfishgeek at 27-Nov-2005 19:28

_______________________________________
Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey S. Firestone

Nothing like a big school in open space. One of the reasons I'm in this hobby. I guess at this point there isn't too many predators (if any) for the fry. I have a few guppies and I never see any fry, I'm sure the pencilfish are picking them off very quickly as they weave through the plants.

BTW - Your using Seachem's equilium right, what is your KH out of the tap anyway?

My Scapes

tetratech,

Sometimes I seem to observe an adult Espei on the hunt. He/she stands still in the water, just behind a plant and seems to wait for something, then he/she darts forward in an attempt to catch something. I don’t know what it is that they are after, I only assume it must be the very small fry. I never have seen one being eaten though.

Yes, I am using Seachem Equilibrium, but to my knowledge it doesn’t influence the KH. It supposedly raises the GH (is untreated at about 2 dH, haven’t tested in a while) and also adds some traces that are not available in the Plantex mix. My KH from the tab is a maximum of 2 dH as well, sometimes I couldn’t even detect any hardness as the test tube color changed with the first drop . I haven’t tested that one either in about 5 weeks. After each 50% water change I add 2 tsp of Baking Soda to raise the KH to somewhere between 3 and 4.

Ingo

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GFG,

I completely forgot to thank you for the compliments.

And you give me way too much credit with regards to be able to answer all your questions. There are a lot of other folks here that know quite a bit more than I do.

3 pairs of boots? I didn’t know England had such long winters .

Ingo

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Sometimes I seem to observe an adult Espei on the hunt.
That's probably a good thing, considering your babies will start to have babies soon. You could probably start suppling a few LFS with stock.

I asked about the equilibrum, because my tap is kh 3 and gh 5, so I guess I'm O.K.

My Scapes

I asked about the equilibrum, because my tap is kh 3 and gh 5, so I guess I'm O.K

Yeah, I didn't realize the importance of GH until I read an article on chuck gadd's site talking about how different nutrient deficienies show up in plant leaves. When I had anubias in my tank a lot of the leaves grew in cupped and crinkled and I didn't know why - it's a calcium deficiency.

My water is also very soft, LF. I wonder if we get our water from the same source, you're pretty close to me...? GH is also 2, kH 3. What's the pH of your water as it comes out if the tap (after sitting over night, of course)? Mine is over 7, which I find strange because it's so soft, I would think it'd be more acidic no?

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Back in the saddle!

Hey LF, that means you could send me a grounp of the Espei since they are not available around here. Then I could have them too! I have looked for them but can't find them anywhere! Only thing I can find are the Harlequin Raspboras...

I jsut love checking the updates on your tank. It is SO awesome!


Christina

tetratech – my knowledge of the importance of GH and KH is still very limited, all I know is that I should have some of each .

NowherMan6 – my ph is 7 from the tab. “after sitting over night” - - where would I have 60 gallons of water sitting over night ? No, mine goes from the tab straight into the tank, with the addition of Prime, of course.

dvmchrissy – Thanks for the compliments on the tank, it is a work in progress (that never finishes, I guess) . About the Rasbora – did you ask in the LFS if they have them once in a while or if they could order them for you? My LFS has them rarely (saw them twice in the last 9 months and I bought almost all of the second set). The store guy tells me that there is not a high demand on them and that would be why they don’t carry them that often. I somehow doubt that as they are much prettier than the “regular” Harlies (just my opinion, in case some people would think the opposite). I heard from other sources that they are actually much rarer that the normal Harlies and that would be the reason why you can’t find them in the stores that often. Shipping some your way? Well – lets wait and see, I currently have only about 100 .

Ingo

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Thanks for the compliments on the tank, it is a work in progress (that never finishes, I guess)
That is so true. Even when your (anyone's) tank looks great you will still look at it one day and want to change it. That's why you need 10 tanks. Right now I have 2 actually there is 4 total in my house if you count my son's newt swamp and my other son's 1 gallon betta thing.

My Scapes

Even when your (anyone's) tank looks great you will still look at it one day and want to change it

Like me right now trying to adjust my current. It is either to little or too much, I can’t seem to find the right settings. Details can be read [link=Here]http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Planted%20Aquaria/66675.html?200511291119" style="COLOR: #ff6633[/link].

The particular problems with stronger current are:

Surface Agitation
Fish swimming in current all the time (no rest)
Plants being blown around too much. I just don’t like the look of leaning plants. I am at work so I cannot take a picture but look above at the Rock Valley and focus on the Corkscrew Vals. Right now, I have 2/3 of them leaning to the right and 1/3 to the left as the current cuts right in there (can’t be seen in picture above as it was taken before powerhead was added to right of tank).

When there are no problems with plants or fish, just create a new one, like mess with the water flow .

Ingo

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When there are no problems with plants or fish, just create a new one, like mess with the water flow
If no problems why are you messing with it, go scape your 29G.

No but really if the flow is too much too little, what if you did what I was doing. Vertical mount the spray bar and angle it so it hits the front glass, wouldn't that whip it around the tank (even without a bowfront) and not directly on the plants and the fry.



My Scapes

go scape your 29G

]:|

Well, I want that one to get settled first before I mess with it yet again .

I think your suggestion of the vertical – forward spraybar position on this kind of tank shape would not work. I would imagine that it creates a huge turbulence in the front left corner and that any further flow is sparse and unpredictable. But most of all it wouldn’t reach the right side, I think.

Ingo

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Just get a big wave machine like they have in big saltwater tanks in public aquariums. That'll circa'late yer tank, no doubt about it

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Back in the saddle!

I would imagine that it creates a huge turbulence in the front left corner and that any further flow is sparse and unpredictable. But most of all it wouldn’t reach the right side, I think.

You could always get a 125g bowfront.



My Scapes

Really funny guys

I am so glad to have you as my plant buddies

Ingo

EDIT: NowherMan6 - you were entry 600

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 29-Nov-2005 14:22

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EDIT: NowherMan6 - you were entry 600

Oh, that's right... had I known that I probably would have said something less stupid... ::roll eyes::

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Gang,

I just placed an order for 2 new plants.

The one that I was really keen on was Cyperus helferi, I ordered 5. And I saw another plant that looked nice, so I ordered 5 of them too, called Potamogeton gayii. If you know anything about this plant, please share it with me.

All plants should arrive sometime next week, if tetratech or others don’t interfere with its delivery (see tetratech’s log for details).

This means that sometime next week there is going to be yet another replant – oh yeah .

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 30-Nov-2005 09:14

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Gang,

I actually wanted to write about my thread algae problem that seems to come back (long long thin green single threads) but I changed my mind.

Instead I show you some pictures of my latest purchase. I went to the LFS and got 3 Pearl Gouramies, 2 females and 1 male. It took a while to explain to the sales guy how he can sex them (only the owner and I knew), but I will show you easily with the pictures how it can be done. They are still very young and the finnage is not as developed yet.

So, no more babble, here they are (let me know what you think):

First, the gang in the bag. They are currently in the 20G QT with my 5 platies (yes, I know my prettiest tank is also my QT ). The male is the one in the middle. His dorsal fin is longer and pointier that the female, which are rounded at the back.

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Next they just have been released and make new friends (I hope).

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Here they start to explore the tank, the male is in the middle again.

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Last but not least a female behind some Xmas Moss. I hope I will get better shots soon .

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Ingo I love pearls. Though I love sparklings better
. They will be a great addition to the tank, and will
definitely keep any future espei fry low in count .

Best of luck with them.

I hear you on the algae
*shakes fist at the staghorn algae that appeared in his 20G
this week. And also at the green hair algae that has decided to return eve so triumphantly*

Megil

Last edited by Megil Tel'Zeke at 30-Nov-2005 19:58

Nice fish! Thanks for the lesson. I need all the help I can get.

Edit: I must be doing something right because I am not having hardy any algae problems.

Last edited by Wingsdlc at 30-Nov-2005 20:14

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Great purchase ! Got a trio of Pearls myself. Absolutely great fish. They'll give you no problems , they are extremely peaceful, won't look twice at the other fish. They like company of other pearls so that's not a problems. You'll love them, they work great in a planted tank. They also bring a grace and an almost feline quality in the way they move. Perfect for a large planted tank. the males turn into complete stunners once they hit 3-4inches, but they do grow slowly.

Gayi is an absoloute weed, in every sense of the word. You can almost see it grow. It will try to take over so keep an eye on it.It spreads by runners so kinda sneaks up on you. Takes a while to get going, so don't move it about much. Had some before - thought it was going to strangle me in my sleep Very easy , doesn't need much of anything, pearls like there's no tomorrow.

But it's nice shape, one that you haven't had in your tank up to now so a nice addition.

Good job on the Helferi- dump the Corkscrew

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Padding the thread count there alittle. As I said you jersey folk are so competitive.

Anyway, 'Bout time you got more fish. As I said, I'm not a huge gourmai fan, but I certainly could see their grace. Yes they have grace.

Last edited by tetratech at 30-Nov-2005 21:18

My Scapes

Nice pearls LF, I got one myself to replace my apistos that recently passed. He's doing great with my 18 cardinals. Bensaf's right, he doesn't look twice at them.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients