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This one shows an Anubias Nana that is surrounded and covered up by the Xmas Moss on top, Dwarf Sag Subulata on the right and left, and Glosso on the bottom

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This one is for tetratech and NowHerMan6, you guys are not alone in the Algae War – “Long live the Staghorn”

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Here is a shot of the dense Glosso carpet in front of and in-between Rock Valley

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Last but not least, yet another Glosso close-up

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LF,
That glosso really looks great. I find the hairgrass to be a major pain, someone on another thread actually suggested I "comb" it.

My Scapes

Hey LF can I see algae on your Annubus nana? cos thats what mine looks like.................

I still want your tank. although that thing you are going to buy - the Loo Line system that really made me laugh!

any how must get back to staring at my tanks, did all the WC changes tonight and they look beautiful accept for the aglae which I have decided to live with!

is it time for a big picture yet?

GFG

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Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey S. Firestone

Ingo,

The algae in the moss. I don't think it's staghorn. Looks like green thread algae. Can be a problem in mosses, bet it's not growing anywhere else ? . Easy to remove - get a toothbrush (not one you use, an old one, or mabe the wife's ) stick it in there and twirl it around, like wrapping spaghetti around a fork. You find the threads of algae come out very easily.The kids can help you with this , they may enjoy it and may even stop thinking Daady's gone a little cuckoo

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Don't forget to chant and dance around the tank while you're at it. Oops was that in print?
Is it really that easy to get it out of a tank? Why oh why didn't I have the internet when I still had the 2g, that thing was full of thread algae!
I fixed it by breaking down the tank and giving it away! That'll teach that nasty stuff to grow in my tank!
Love the pics, that glosso tempts me so! The sags look really good too!
But I must remain strong and stave off temptation.[img src='/images/forums/halo.gif' border=0]
Easy enough as I have'nt seen it available here at all!

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Thanks all for the input,

Bensaf – The algae is mostly in the moss. It forms some very long strands, reaching up to 6 inches (then I usually “clean” them out with the next water change). These strands are also forming on other plants though. Nevertheless, certain parts of the moss have a dense population of much shorter bright green algae and an attempt to pull on it would remove the moss from the rocks. I guess I still have to work on adjusting my nutrient supply.

luvmykrib and tetratech – yeah, the Glosso is very nice. Somewhere much earlier in this thread are some pictures that show how few of it I had in there initially. Now I am actually faced with the question if the Glosso needs pruning. At some points it grows 4 rows on top of each other and I get worried that it shades itself too much. My experiment in the 20G with 2wpg and Glosso is still ongoing. I checked last night and new growth is still developing but older existing leaves are becoming yellowish. I am almost certain that it is fertilizer related as I keep them in short supply in this tanks (it is a QT after all, at least at the moment). Or maybe it is insufficient light.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I guess I still have to work on adjusting my nutrient supply

Did you think you bottomed out, or do you still think excess n,k,p causes algae?

My Scapes

Did you think you bottomed out, or do you still think excess n,k,p causes algae?

it's funny you brought this up, because I just got a newsletter in my email today from the fishkeeping section of about.com (long story) and the headline was "Fast and easy cure for green hair algae!" Naturally I clicked on the link to the article with much gusto and fervor, only to find that their cure was.... you probably guessed it, get rid of N and P! ::roll eyes::

I feel like there's always the temptation to say, well i need to lower N, P or what have you, but when you think about it it doesn't make sense. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't algae of various types "better" at using those macros than higher level plants? So if that's the case, how is it even possible to have a level of say N that would benefit plants and not algae? The plants need it no matter what, you have to give it to them. Algae is going to be able to use it no matter what. To my mind, anyway, that sounds like it can't be excess N or whatever that causes algae to grow.

And please correct me if I'm missing something here. Maybe not enough CO2?

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Back in the saddle!

Yeah,

I hear you guys. Whenever one reads a particular interpretation of the algae issue then it sounds rather reasonable. I guess I will try to do some testing tonight to see what my current N, P, CO2 is. I somehow don’t think that I bottomed out on any of these and I suspect that the micros somehow mess with me. But if it is too much or too little, hell – I don’t know .

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

To my mind, anyway, that sounds like it can't be excess N or whatever that causes algae to grow.

He gets it !!!!!

If algae is a single cell protestant buddist or whatever the hell it is, it only needs minuscule amounts of nutrients. Much much less then plants. So why oh why would it need excessive amounts to flourish ????? It really only holds true when there are nutrients available that plants don't need, like silica causing brown algae.

That's not to say we just dump huge amounts of nutrients in and all problems are solved. High amounts will cause problems for livestock, flora and fauna. Really high nitrates or co2 will hurt fish. Excessive amounts or imbalances of certain nutrients can cause toxic reactions in plants. But, luckily the levels needed are really high. A few plants are more sensitive to some nutrients then other. But it's quite a few species.So the range is quite wide, which is where EI comes in, dose to excess but a tolerable excess.

It's the imbalances of nutrients that give the illusion that excess cause algae. For a long time people thought 10-15ppm of Co2 was good enough. It wasn't , and that imbalance caused a lot of issues, issues people attributed to other nutrients. Raising Co2 levels solved a lot of that.

For reasons we really don't understand, it seems when the plants are growing at their optimum level algae doesn't appear. That's were the focus needs to be.

Everytime you folks have an algae issue you go straight to the nutrients. Is this or that in my tap, am I dosing too much of this or that? Never really hear anybody mention the plants. Eyeball them, any plants not growing the way they should, slower, smaller, leggier, paler ? That's where you'll find the answers. Chances are things aren't growing the way they should be and algae pops up. Correct the plant issue and you'll correct the algae problem.

Look at tetras cuurent issue, GW, pops up at the same he had problems with plant growth. Co-incidence ? LF has been moving a lot of things and put in a lot of new plants, most of which will take time to acclimatise and really get growing (for some plants this can be as long as a month), so not all plants are growing to their full potential at the moment. Algae pops up. Co-incidence?

You all have a bit of experience under your belt now, you've seen algae, you've beaten algae, you've seen it come back to some extent.Ask yourself these questions:

Do you really believe, from your experience, that excess macros or micros caused your problems?

Have you seen more problems when your nutrients were lower or higher?

As algae appearance ever coincided with reduced plant growth?

Is what you are dosing sufficient to sustain or improve the growth you are seeing?

I think I might need another long break

BTW, the whole "Star Wars" thing that went on. I've got an announcement to make:

Tetratech, I am your father

Last edited by bensaf at 07-Dec-2005 21:43

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

bensaf,

You are too much! Sometime if you get a chance take a look at my thread . I would like to hear what you have to say. New pictures will be coming up sometime tomorrow!!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Anyway pretty sure it's from all the reduced plant mass since 2 of my 3 main stem groups are not functioning.
I said the above in my thread back on Dec 2nd referring to my latest GW.

I agree, but the one thing that I have not seen is how plant mass plays a role in dosing. I mean if you hve one stem of a very needy plant that must have co2, high light, etc to survive and there is nothing else in the tank just hardscape are you going to dose that tank the same way that you would a tank that has shoulder to shoulder plants. I think you walk a fine line with algae and GW if you don't have that really good mass. If you remember I got GW early on and beat it when my plant mass was huge and then when my main groupings stopped growing as you mentioned the GW came back. So what caused the GW. I was testing nh3, "Zero", no2 "zero". Is the nh3 in the substrate and then when you scape and move things around you realize enough nh3 to get the algae or GW going again. The odds or how bad it get's is probably based on a combination of plant mass and light.

Actually here's Amanos take on "Creating a Balance"
"The amount of a liquid fert needs to be altered depending on the volume of aquatic plants in an aquarium" In the case of stems plants that grow well with an addition of a liquid fert the amount of the fertilizer given right after planting may be small. However since they grow fast, they become dense in a short period of time. Therefore the amount of liquid fert may have to be doubled and tripled depending on their growth. However, in order to maintain stem plants they need to be trimmed periodically. When plants are trimmed back the overall plant volume is decreased and the amount of fertilizer needs to be reduced accordingly. Such adjustments of the amount of supplementation, both up and down must be made by observing the volume and condition of aquatic plants"

This is pretty much what I have said over and over and is my problem with EI. Bensaf if I'm interpreting your comments correctly your saying the same thing, so why when plant mass decreases do you get algae when nh3 is zero.
Dad please be gentle in your response.

My Scapes

Well son,

Actually now that I think of it I'm too young to be your father. More of a slightly older brother, you know the one you were jealous of because he got the good looks, charm and girlfriends

We're talking about 2 different things. You talk about plant mass , I'm talking about plant growth.

Firstly EI is about dosing to a slight excess. In a lower plant mass situation the excess is a bit more but should not cause any additional problems. We've all seen tanks that are working well and not totally covered in plants.

Yeah, packing them out at the start is a good idea to get things established. But they can be thinned out and removed later.

When I mention your tank problems I'm not saying it's a result of lower plant mass rather one of stalled/reduced growth. There's a subtle difference. The reduced mass is a byproduct of the stalled growth. There's usually other byproducts - algae.

You saw your tank run well when growth was good, even though it wasn't "packed" with plants. The current problem starting when growth slowed not when the mass was reduced.
In other word the reduced mass was a result not a cause.

As to what's causing your GW. I don't know, I'm at a loss. I've no problem admitting that. How much NH3 is needed for GW to start ? I don't know. Is it a amount that is measurable by a test kit or lower ? Don't know. Is it possible for some reason you've always had some NH3, too little for the test kit to pick up, or indeed how accurate are these kits, but the plants could take it up and when growth slowed the NH3 got used elsewhere ? Maybe.

Here's a wild one I'll throw out. Maybe your injecting Co2 into your canister has had an effect on the bio colony as some have suggested thereby reducing the efficiency of ammonia conversion ? Maybe it's a combination of both.

I don't think it is that, but hell, nothing would surprise me anymore.

But I'm sure by this stage we are in agreement in one thing. The nutirents we dose don't have a role is this and that reduced growth does have a role ?

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

More of a slightly older brother, you know the one you were jealous of because he got the good looks, charm and girlfriends

I am more jealous of your tanks than anything else you mentioned, slightly older brother .

I hear your statement though, and it all makes sense. But as I said earlier, each theory – when looked at individually – makes some sense. Maybe I (and others) suffer from one common issue, which is that I tend to blame others when something doesn’t go right. Let me explain before you jump on my throat. I recently could not find my favorite planting tweezers (yes, I have 6 pairs and I am a nerd) and naturally started to interrogate the entire family of who might have taken them away. Well, 20min later I found them in a place where I put them and I had to say “I am sorry” to everybody. I currently focus my reasoning for algae on Iron, which I cannot see (measure), the same way NH3 has been mentioned (immeasurable amounts).

But I don’t know what else to focus on when I try to identify where any algae might come from. I have Nitrates, Potassium, and Phosphate, I feed Micros frequently, I have CO2 – although I have to confess that I haven’t measured any of these in ages. I have good plant growth, so – what else is out there?

Maybe it really is the constant replanting. BTW, a rather half-hearted attempt to reduce the current algae about 2 to 1 week ago showed no effect. I dosed within one week 50ml and twice 20ml of Flourish Excel, nothing happened. Maybe the Excel wonder from a few weeks ago works only once or not on this particular type of algae.

Ok, I got to get ready for work now.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Boy this feels like the good old days

We're talking about 2 different things. You talk about plant mass, I'm talking about plant growth. Yes and no, but remember I got GW about 2 weeks in, remember the willow branches, tetra dancing around the tank. I know you've been away a while doing God knows what, but you do remember that brother. At that time the plant growth was really good. So was it "mass" or "growth"

Here's a wild one I'll throw out. Maybe your injecting Co2 into your canister has had an effect on the bio colony as some have suggested thereby reducing the efficiency of ammonia conversion ? Maybe it's a combination of both.
I would have no problem admitting this, because as LF knows this was alittle bit of experimentation on my part, but of course I did have the GW with my hagen ladder and my tank did show some cloudiness before I started that. I've also been on APC alot trying to get more feedback and no one else has made that jump. On thing I'm not sure about, once the tank matures what % of the biofilter is actually in the filter (varies of course) but isn't there so much biofilter at this point in the substrate, plants, etc especially in a big tank that would make this point kinda mute.

It could very well be that when LF plays with this tank and I have reduced growth, mass the nh3 that is in the substrate and not necesarily moving around the water column plays a role in the algae.

BTW - Your right about Amano, he doesn't include many details, etc., but a few things he states out right is:
-He doesn't dose the water column initially
_He varies his doses by mass,growth
_He believes ferts will cause/feed algae growth

But with him it's always an easy fix, "Just throw 50 Yamato Shrimp in"



B

Last edited by tetratech at 08-Dec-2005 06:36

My Scapes

Err, I know I'm kinda the outsider looking in on all this "knowledge" and "success with planted tanks" business, but just to add:

Has algae appearance ever coincided with reduced plant growth?

Actually, i've experienced the opposite of this. My plants started to really take off when my GW problems started. I don't know what to attribute that to, but it seems like the exception to the rule... in any case it holds true for BGA and staghorn IME

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Back in the saddle!

Besides all the confusing things about algae growth…

Tetratech just added another one …

Who is B?

Bob, Bill, Ben, or who?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Gang,

Haven’t made an entry in almost 2 days, basically because there is nothing new to report. It’s all the same old stuff, plants and thread algae growing just nicely, fish are reproducing .

I will do my weekly water change today and I am sure the wife will be pleased that I will not spend another 6 hours on replanting stuff. A series of photos will follow the water change.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Do you really believe, from your experience, that excess macros or micros caused your problems?

Imbalance, or an excess(or lack) in ONE nutrient, Macro or Micro, can cause algae. My problem is that nobody wants to listen to the "I have a lot of PO4 in my tap." In response I get "The plants won't care." So I go and dose the suggested KH2PO4 and wind up with 5ppm of PO4 and some algae. After doing an emergency water change and not dosing the PO4, there has been no new algae growth. Also, I have not replanted anything for weeks, and plant growth had always been good.

Have you seen more problems when your nutrients were lower or higher?

I see problems at both ends of the spectrum.

As algae appearance ever coincided with reduced plant growth?

A simple yes would work here, but I've also seen algae with good plant growth.

Is what you are dosing sufficient to sustain or improve the growth you are seeing?

Yep, definitely sustain, not much to improve on.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Matty,

Nobody listens to me either when I talk about my tab Phosphates. I, at an early stage of this tank, had values of 10ppm ]:|.

Besides the algae issues, I did my weekly water change, but as usual I will recap the events of this week on Sunday. Upfront I would like to show you some pictures of the Espei huddling together during the water change. The lower the water level the close the young ones stay with the adults.

Ingo

First shot, group in left tank corner. As an additional treat, find the Oto

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Next – group moving one way

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Last – group moving the other way

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Back in the saddle!

try again...

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Back in the saddle!

Yup NowherMan6,

You found the Oto.

And the prize is: you can look at my pictures as often as you like to .

Images shot with the Tamron

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Weekly updates for week 11,

Not much has happened during the last week. I experimented with the micro fertilizer Plantex Plus Iron and added only 2 doses during the week (normally 3). The reason behind this is that I somehow believe I am getting too much Iron in the water and that would be why I have thread algae. I know that some of the information available by the “old school” hobbyists is outdated, but Chuck Gadd mentions excess Iron as the reason for thread algae. Anyways – I haven’t seen a change, the algae grew as usual. I should actually not try to dose less often but rather less quantities 3 times a week (or half these and 6 times a week). By the way, plant growth is just lovely.

The only trimming that had to be performed this weekend was the removal of some Pygmy Chain Sword runners that were growing into the Glosso lawn.

Ingo

Here are some weekly pictures, first the tank over the weeks and then some details, some of which have questions.

The tank at setup – I cannot believe that I actually thought I had a large plant mass.

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Week 3 – The tank with lots of Nitrate sucking plants

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Week 7 – First attempts to scape the somewhat settled tank

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Week 10 – Last weekend, just as a comparison to this week to show the plant growth in 7 days

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Week 11 – Today

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The first detail picture is a collage of the Apon’s growth during the last 2 weeks. On the left you can barely (if at all) see them as they just have been planted. Sorry about the bad picture quality, but these are magnifications from full tank shots.

By the way, the Ech. Uruguayensis, which sits in front of the Reactor, is still not visible. It has developed a quite a few additional leaves but barely gained any height.
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Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 11-Dec-2005 06:12[/font]

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A close-up of Rock Valley, maybe soon I have to rename it to Moss Valley ( time for a trim? )

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An even closer look at the Xmas Moss with the nice thread algae mixed in. Attempts to pull it out with a toothbrush failed as the moss came out with it as well. I will have to correct any nutrient imbalance to get rid of this stuff.

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:


Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 11-Dec-2005 06:13[/font]

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Weekly summary pictures are on previous page, please view first.

The Amano Pearl Grass, which I think is an excellent and forgiving plant.

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My remaining bunch of Narrow Leaf Ludwigia, I am torn between really liking it and throwing it out. Time will tell.

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Last but not least, and as boring as it may seem, another Glosso close-up.

The question here is: Do I have to trim it at some point? I somehow never thought of that but it is now 4 layers deep in some areas.

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LF,
Very nice. Everything looks very healthy. Is the algae definitely "thread"? Many aquarists as you said do believe too much FE is the reason behind the thread algae, but it's probably not that simple, there are probably other factors as well.

Is the rotala m. on the left a cutting from the bigger group on the right? I don't remember, but how come you removed the rotala r.

The first observation I made about your tank is that their is very little hardscape showing, the plants have pretty much consumed it.



My Scapes

tetratech,

Thanks for the comments .

Bensaf identified this algae a few days back as thread, I initially labeled it Staghorn, but I think he is right as it doesn’t branch within the strings themselves.

Yes, the Rotala Macandra on the left is cuttings from the group on the right. I replanted then before last weeks update. The Macandra grew very nicely during this week, although it had been uprooted during last weeks “messing” with the tank.

The first attempt of adding Rotala Rotundifolia ended up with introducing BGA to the tank that was attached to the plants . So I removed them. The next attempt was better, but the plant didn’t fit into the overall picture. It also grew tall fast and would have required too much trimming. Having had the plant in my 29G and seeing your 72G log I decided that I have no interest in constantly uprooting a plant and replanting the tops just to avoid the ragged legs.

Yeah, the hardscape is gone . The only pieces that are still visible is the tip of rock and the newly “planted” rock on the right side (last weeks addition). I assume the next thing you gonna tell me is that I need more hardscape, right ?

Ingo

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I assume the next thing you gonna tell me is that I need more hardscape, right ?
Well, that thought did cross my mind, but I think I had said from the beginning of our logs, we really were taking two completely different approaches. My tank still has the wisteria that I kept from my old 46 and the only original plants I ordered from aquariumplants.com when I setup the tank what about 3 months ago, although I am looking into purchasing something alittle different.



My Scapes

Well, if you look through my log you will find out about how I always thin out my foreground every couple months. I take out the biggest chain swords, replant the small ones, then take the large ones to the lfs for $$. You could probably thin out the glosso, and take quite a bit back for 20 bucks, maybe more(well at my store you would end up getting about that much). You will probably see better, faster growth after you thin out the group. I noticed some of the leaves on the bottom had maybe a little algae on them? That's what tends to happen to my chain swords if I let them bunch up too much.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and keep the ludwiggia, it's a nice plant with a bit of different color you don't always see. And if you take out all your fast growing plants you might get some trouble.

Last edited by mattyboombatty at 11-Dec-2005 09:21

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Matty – Thanks for the advice on the Glosso and Ludwigia. I will contact my LFS to see if they have an interest in purchasing some of my Glosso. Yeah, I like the Ludwigia because of the different color and leaf shape. But at the same time it means that the bottom parts might look “rooty” for all the water roots this plant develops over time. Fortunately most of these parts are hidden behind rocks.

tetratech – What other plants do you have in mind?

I hear you on the missing hardscape . Finding tall (18+ inches) rocks that don’t have a broad base that would take up too much space is not an easy task. And switching to driftwood would mean that I have to go on the hunt for good wood again (not at the moment).

The hardscape also seems consumed because the rock coloration has changes. The longer they are in the tank the darker they get. Here are some pictures of rocks in my tank .

The first one displays what I mean with “changing coloration”. The rock in front is in the tank since the beginning, the one in the back since a week. It is the same rock type.

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Immediately to the left of Rock Valley sits this rock, between the Anubias and the Narrow Leaf Ludwigia.

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A smaller rock to the left of the Anubias from the last picture, almost in the foreground of the tank, with a taller one in the back. That one is still lighter as it has been in the tank since only 3 weeks.

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Last but not least, 2 rocks on the left of the tank. They are way hidden because of the Anubias and Sword plants. Note the Oto and yet again another blossom on the Anubias.

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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How many otos do you have in that tank? So far we've only seen one, is it the same one? Every morning I play hunt the otos in the 25g, I have 4 in that tank and 2 in the 10g. They aren't really shy, just so busy eating they could care less about me. I just cleaned the gravel and had to move an ornamental castle they have been cleaning, all 4 of them were clinging to it as I moved it to and fro. Not one of them moved! The krib on the other hand was manuevering to get a piece of me! She seems to think I'm a snack.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

luvmykrib,

I don’t know it is always the same one .

Could be, maybe this one likes to be photographed. But I have 6. At some point I had 8 (I think), but 2 didn’t make it .

Yeah, I have to chase them away from the glass when I clean it. I think it is not so much a question of trust though. I believe it is the natural instinct of this fish on what to do when predators are around. They just don’t move and hope that their coloration will help them to blend into the environment. I usually don’t get to see all 6 of them and can only hope that they are still alive. The last time I saw them all was about 2 weeks ago.


Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I have the same problem with my Otos. I should have 5 in my 40 but I haven't seen all 5 in about two weeks.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Do you ever worry that controlling algae with excel will leave them with nothing to eat? Mine have nearly cleaned out the 10g, and the ones in the 25g have eaten so much algae that I am now worried it won't grow fast enough! Thus I am not dosing excel daily but every few days instead. They have not even looked at the algae flakes I give the krib. Would they eat wafers if they ran out of algae?

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

luvmykrib,

I actually controlled algae with Excel only for one week until the rather dangerous black brush algae was defeated. A second, albeit half hearted, attempt about 2 weeks back to defeat thread algae failed. I either didn’t dose enough or this stuff simply doesn’t care about it.

In my tank Otos will always find something to eat. Loads of plants and glass surface assure that 6 Otos will never have an empty belly. I had some Otos in my smaller tanks and I was worried about their food source. I also did not have the impression that they were eating the algae wafers I provided. Generally, the tips I got were to a) feed the wafer after lights out and b) break up the wafer in smaller pieces and place them in a few spots within the tank. I did just that and in the morning they were mostly gone, but who knows who ate them (maybe the snails)?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hey LF,

sorry to change the topic, but I have another question about your amazing breeding espei.

I know you spend a lot of time plant watching, but do you ever notice any specific behavior in your espei before they breed? Chasing behavior, dances etc? I know how to recognize the territory dance the males do, but I've noticed somethign new yesterday after a water change and I wodnered if you've noticed anything they do before breeding.

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Back in the saddle!

NowherMan6,

Hm, let’s see. Here is the dance my males make: The swim side by side, head to tail, stretch out all the fins, wiggle slightly, and show their best colors. The loser usually leaves the dance floor .

Before and during breeding: The male Espei colors brighten up quite a bit. They become bright orange to red, with a purple hue. Then the males chase the females, usually one to two males (sometimes more) chase one female. Then the males fight until the loser leaves (but sometimes comes back) and most of the time the winner joins the female to lay and fertilize the eggs on the underside of leaves.

And then all that have witnessed this process join the breeders in eating the eggs, if they remember where they put them .

And that’s it, nothing else. What did you see?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Wow, that's interesting. I noticed the male wiggle dance months ago, at first I thought that was breeding but I figured out quickly that was the territory dance.

But yesterday I noticed that about 4 males were chasing the big female around, chasing back and forth, and every now and then two of the males would stop to do the wiggle dance, then rejoin the chase. I didn't see any egg dropping, but that seems to be the same thing as happens with yours, so i assume it's breeding behavior... now if only I could get them over that hump...

thanks, that's kind of exciting to hear. At least my little fish are becoming adults.

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Back in the saddle!

NowherMan6,

Just keep your eyes open for any movement close to the substrate in a quiet corner of the tank

At least Espei, and I assume "normal" Harlies as well, have their eggs hatch within one day and fry is free swimming within 5 days, but really small.

And I don't think the male dancing is territory related - I think it is the "boss" issue, in other words the identification of the alpha male.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks LF. I don't know if I'll ever see the result of any breeding, I'm afraid my yo-yos will take care of all that business.

Anyway, it's something to look out for. Cheers!

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Back in the saddle!

Gang,

Sunday evening, over one day after my water change, I tested some parameters.

Following the water change I added:

1 tsp of KNO3
1/2 tsp of K2SO4
1/8 tsp of KH2PO4
2 tsp of baking soda
1/2 tsp of Seachem Equilibrium

Nothing else has been added, I neglected the Plantex Plus Iron micro fertilizer completely. Here are the measured values:

Ph of about 6.6
KH of about 4 DH
Concludes in a CO2 of about 30ppm – good
Nitrates of about 20ppm, way too much as it was just one day after water change
Phosphates of about 5ppm, way too much as well
Iron (with a power test kit that is dissolved in tank water on a test plate) initially showed 0.1ppm, which is good. But the test states that one has to wait 30 to 45 min to see the values for chelated iron, which turned out to be somewhere around 0.3ppm.

Why am I telling you all of this? Because I am still trying to find out where the thread algae is coming from. Chuck Gadd mentions high Iron levels as a reason, this would be in line with my readings if chelated iron counts. The phosphates seem to be a little high as well, maybe that is another reason. My high nitrates are most likely form the “slightly” increased number of fish.

Here is what I propose I will do:

- reduce KNO3 to ½ tsp every other day
- don’t add any KH2PO4 at all
- add a little more K2SO4 to keep the potassium up, maybe ¾ tsp
- reduce Plantex plus Iron (so far always ½ tsp) to ¼ tsp every other day. This might cause a low level of other micros, so I might switch to a different “provider”, maybe TMG, after all.

Any thoughts?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

reduce KNO3 to ½ tsp every other day
don’t add any KH2PO4 at all
If Bensaf sees this you are toast ]:|

LF,
Have you tried the PPS system for your test kits. I would do that for the n03 and po4 before you reduce. Here's the thread that contains the link to setup the benchmarks. It was a big help to me understanding what the colors really meant in my kits.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showthread.php?t=4241

Last edited by tetratech at 13-Dec-2005 08:44

My Scapes

Thanks tetratech,

I printed out the whole document and will read it on my way home. BTW, I strongly believe that the fertilator once contained Plantex to measure Iron. I wonder why they took it off?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I haven't read it all yet, but I did go through the articles titled "How to test for Nitrates and Phosphates" When I used that system to set color standards I realized my levels were lower than what I was interpreting them as from the color charts that come with the test.

BTW - Is the thread algae mostly on top of the javamoss covered rock or is it on the bottom as well and other low plants?

Last edited by tetratech at 13-Dec-2005 09:55

My Scapes

The thread algae is very dense within the upper parts of the Xmas moss, almost forming a green cushion entangled so tightly that I cannot remove it.

Other parts of the moss have it as well, but not as dense. Also, other plants show threads on the upper and lower portions of the tank.

Do you have a hypothesis?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Do you have a hypothesis

Yes, light.

The top of that moss is probably one of the closest unchanging points to those 386watts of light. As I said before your tank is the same depth as mine and I have half the wattage. We all know that detris get's caught in moss, so it's not surprising that all the light and waste is creating a hotbed for algae. If I had that light on my tank it would be over 5wpg, but we all know wpg is a general rule. Bottom line is you have intense light on that moss that's very close to the source. I notice on my tank there is miminal algae, but I notice on the DW higher up the algae is definitely more concentrated.

Last edited by tetratech at 13-Dec-2005 15:14

My Scapes

I can see how that makes sense. IME hornwort floating on the surface, if not moved around by the current, will quickly develop into a mat of green algae. I've seen this happen when no other algae appeared in the tank. I figured it was happening to the hornwort because of its proximity to the intense light. Myabe the same is happening with your moss...

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Back in the saddle!

My guess was light as well. You have lots of light!
I used to leave the light on longer as a way of compensating for there being less of it and algae grew profusely at the top portions of the plants. Since using the timers and adding the otos there has been less algal growth all over.
You may need to go with 8-10 hours rather than 10-12 hrs of light. I read that somewhere but can't recall where right now. Check aqua-botanic, could've been there.

http://www.aquabotanic.com/begin.htm

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Hm, Ladies and Gentlemen,

I wonder if you are on to something.

But, I have 1/2 the lights on for only 4 hours. The rest of the 11 hours lighting period is on 192 Watts only, means less than 2wpg.

Or maybe lights play an imprortant role in my algae growth, but high Phosphate and Iron levels do as well?

Gee, one more thing to think about, darn lights .

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

We all know (I think) that light is the biggest factor in algae growth. I know you only have the 3.1 wpg on for 4 hours, but that is really intense. Remember 3.1 wpg on a 125g is alot differnt than 3.1 on a 20g.

And besides your an EI diehard.


LF - Have you thought about adding a herd of sae. Don't they eat the stuff?

Last edited by tetratech at 13-Dec-2005 19:09

My Scapes

Don't understand why you'd want to reduce NO3 and PO4.

The problem with reducing the Plantex +Iron is you are not just reducing Iron but all the other micros too.

Definately a good idea to swap to TMG or something like it. I always add FE as a seperate component, easier to control. I only add FE for extra color, never found it neccessary as such. TMG always seemed to have enough to keep plants happy.

Pull out as much of the thread as you can, doesn't matter if some moss comes loose it'll grow back. Keep harrassing it.You may be able to stop new growth but it won't kill what's already there.

Notsure light is a factor here. I've seen thread grow in moss in the deepest darkest most shaded part of a tank.

No toasting today [img src='/images/forums/halo.gif' border=0]

Last edited by bensaf at 13-Dec-2005 20:38

Last edited by bensaf at 13-Dec-2005 20:39

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Yeah,

That was one of the reasons I mentioned that I might switch to another micro fertilizer, less dosing of plantex concludes in less other goodies.

BTW, the moss is not the closest to the top of the tank, Rotala Macandra, Narrow Leaf Ludwigia, Crypt Retrospiralis, and the spray bar are closer.

I will try to remove the stuff on the weekend; I probably will have to trim the moss in order to get it out.

Ingo

Here is another picture of it, on top of the rock area:

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

On a different note, the two remaining Pearls are doing fine in the 20G, but the male worries me a bit. Very very territorial. He now also chases the Platies once in a while and rarely tolerates the female close to him. Here is a picture of both together:

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I thought Tom Barr said he dosed a ton of Fe and made no difference on algae. Am I wrong?

Isn't there just too many variables to really understand exactly what is causing your thread algae. Maybe all those espei are pooping in the moss and creating a nice nh3 soap heated by that light. Have you tested nh3 with all those babies in there. I don't know if you fish load is considered heavy, but it could be. I wonder if you could test the water right inside the top of that moss and then test again in the open area and see if there is any nh3 differences. I have to say I started dosing more no3, po4 and FE and I don't see any new or add'l algae growth.

Fish load, plant mass/growth, and all that light. 386 watts right on top of that moss.

BTW - That's a beautiful "graceful" picture







Last edited by tetratech at 14-Dec-2005 05:49

Last edited by tetratech at 14-Dec-2005 06:21

My Scapes

tetratech,

First of all thank you for the comment on the picture .

I guess I could try to get water from within the moss area. I just have to make sure that my fingers don’t touch the top of the test tube as this would create wrong readings for sure.

About the too much of something causing issues, well – I guess that is up for debate .

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF, Do you have one of those little plastic tubes that suck the water in. It comes with some test kits. You squeeze it and the water gets sucked in.



My Scapes

Yup,

I got that, I will have to use it twice as it has only a capacity of 3ml. Didn't come with my test tubes but had the feeling they would come handy one day so I ordered a bunch from Greg Watson while I bought my Ferts.

Thanks tetratech, I would have forgotten about them

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Worth a try, I don't even know if it's measurable, but you never know.

I think it's tough to tinker with this and tinker with that. There's always another reaction. The more I read and understand the more I think it's pretty simple.

If it's true that nh3/nh4 causes most algae from a fert side. (which I think I'm in that camp now) then...

Plants eat nh3, fish produce nh3. The most successful tanks are one's with very little fish and lots of plants, what a big surprise. But most aquarists don't do this, they put more fish in a given space then there would be in nature.

So bascially more plants, more wiggle room for error and to stay algae free. Less plants, more fish, less wiggle room. Then we start to change fert dosing, etc. The high light puts the algae production into hyperdrive and the rest is history. If someone wants to prove me in correct, so be it.

My Scapes

tetratech,

I think we once established that NH3 is preferred by plants over NO3, right?

This would explain why I have rather high levels of NO3 albeit I reduced the amount added. The additional, hm, 100 fish produce a lot of NH3 and plants will use it first. That leaves the NO3 up for grabs in the tank. And this is why I intend to dose even less of it.

So, if the NH3 causes the algae then I should dose even less NO3, or none at all, right? I guess I should emasure Ammonia, although all fish are doing fine.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I think the plants need both, the algae we know can do very well on just the nh3, but your plants should still be sucking up all the no3. I bet there is very little measurable nh3 in your water, but might be enough with all that light. I still think 386 watts on a 21" deep tank is alot regardless of how long it is.

I'm not suggesting your light isn't good, just that you probably need even more plant mass and I don't know if you could maintain that moss so high up in the water column where the light is so intense.






My Scapes

Wouldn't trace amounts of ammonia be consumed by bacteria in the filter/ gravelbed before plants have a chance to use it?

I assume the same principle applies here as it does with nitrates and the like - that microscopic organisms (in this case good bacteria) can use these things in smaller amounts, and thus more quickly than higher organisms like plants...

if this is the case then plants need to get that N from somewhere, and dosing nitrates is safer for fish than dosing ammonia...

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Back in the saddle!

The more I read and understand the more I think it's pretty simple.

If it's true that nh3/nh4 causes most algae from a fert side. (which I think I'm in that camp now)

Plants eat nh3, fish produce nh3. The most successful tanks are one's with very little fish and lots of plants, what a big surprise. But most aquarists don't do this, they put more fish in a given space then there would be in nature.

basically more plants, more wiggle room for error and to stay algae free. Less plants, more fish, less wiggle room.

I'm so proud of my ever so slightly younger brother. Sorry, I'm filling up with tears here

Tetras right, it is deceptively simple. We as hobyists tend to over complicate it. Pseudo science is a big problem in this hobby.
There are a number of different methods that can work, all have remarkably similar princicples. Nutrient suuply is the key for all, they just differ in how they deliver them.
But , yep, lot's of plants with a low/moderate fish load and moderate lighting (2-3 wpg of PC/T5) is pretty much the simplest way, gives the most wiggle room by far.

Ever seen a big fish in an Amano tank ? Even his famous 2,000 or whaver gallon tank is just housing small tetras. All those gorgeous tanks you see on the net, you hardly ever see much fish.

One thing I'd change if I was starting over is my fish stocking. Definately fewer in total quantity and number of species. This is also for aesthetic reasons, it simply looks better. Same for plants, smaller number of species but bigger groupings.

Yes I'm trying desperately to get my collectoritis under control.


I made a point before somewhere else that one of the reasons people have so many problems with planted tanks is their fundamental approach. Not many would think of starting a reef tank, for example, without doing a lot of research and making sure they had all the appropriate equipment. Mainly due to the expenses involved in purchasing marine fish and corals. Lot's of people approach their first planted tank by picking up a couple of bad quality plants from an LFS and the ubiquitous bottle of "plant food". It never works. People end up thinking planted tanks are a whole lot more difficult then they actually are. Lot's of old crap on the net doesn't help.

How many times have we seen folks say they want to start a planted tank but they'll add the plants first and up the lighting later, or they have the lighting now and add the plants bit by bit as the money becomes available. Always makes me groan, I can see the dying plants/alagae problem posts coming.

It is simple, very simple, a routine that takes a few minutes a week takes care of most everything. It's the intial approach and start up that screws most people over.Not enough people appraoch the way Ingo and tetra did. They had their problems, but got past them relatively quickly. What they learned from that will help on the next tank they set up and they'll have fewer problems.

Algae panic attacks and tinkering cause a lot of problems. Patience, consistency and stability will solve most problems as well as good housekeeping, cleaning the glass,filters and equipment regularly. As tetra said tinkering usually causes a chain reaction, pretty soon you are not sure what caused what.

Think you have an issue ? Don't stop adding a particular nutrient. Reduce it, but only one at any given time, watch things to see if there's a reaction, good or bad, adjust accordingly.Keep notes. This takes 2-3 weeks but at least you always know where you are and you get a definitive answer. If not that nutrient move on to the next one on your list of suspects. Always start by checking Co2 and No3 first.

Example, LF you have thread algae so you reduce No3, Po4 and micros. So lets say the algae dissapears or even gets worse. Are you any the wiser? Not really because you have no idea which of the nutrients you reduced was the problems, if there's a chain reaction further down the line, you don't which nutrient is the problem. Could be the No3, the Po4, the FE ?

A better approach would be to reduce your prime suspect, the FE, only. Remove as much algae as you can first. Watch carefully, any new algae showing up, is it growing faster or slower, watch the plants for yellowing etc.Adjust accordingly. This will rell you what you need to know about FE and what level your tank can handle.If the FE levels don't make a difference, well at least it crossed off the list of suspects and you move on.

Changes should be gradual. It's slow but it works in the long term.

I don't know any of this, I'm not a plant biologist or any such thing. I can only share what I've observed and learned through the hundreds of dumbass mistakes I've made in my time (and not just with plants or tanks).

I'll stop rambling now.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Bensaf,

What a lovely and long ode to the patience .

I certainly agree with you on the time it takes for one small change to show results. Also, I agree that multiple changes at the same time will, even when the results are good, not tell me which one of the changes causes what in the tank.

But :

Although I a messing with 3 values (N,P, FE) at the same time, I believe that only one of them is critical and should have an influence in my tank.

- I currently have 20ppm NO3 one day after a 50% water change. Can we conclude that based on EI my dosing (at current fish stock levels) is too high? By EI standards and healthy uptake, I should have 20ppm maybe at the end of the week as this would be the level of build-up, but not initially. If so, reducing the amount added should not cause anything to change, except if I would add too little.

- The same counts for P. I have 5ppm of P in my tank. If P is not the culprit for algae creation then lowering this value to about 2ppm should again have no effect. I for sure do not believe that 5ppm has any advantages. So, I reduce the amount added to adjust to 2ppm. This, by the way, will probably mean that I should not add any in the first few days after a water change (2ppm tab) but substitute later during the week when parts have been used up.

- The iron - this is the one that should show signs, either for the better or the worse. This is also my weak point because, as we mentioned before, my iron addition is coupled with all other micros and as such could show side effects not directly cause by lesser iron itself. I really have to switch to TMG, guess I will order it today .

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well thank you, Bensaf! between all your good advice and doing some of my own due diligence things started to click.
Fundamentally I think I understand things on a bigger and similiar level, but now to execute it.

One thing I'd change if I was starting over is my fish stocking. Definately fewer in total quantity and number of species. This is also for aesthetic reasons, it simply looks better. Same for plants, smaller number of species but bigger groupings.
Wow, you sound alittle like me. Less species all the way around. Some of the most pleasing images I see some times are tanks with 2 species of plants and 1 species of fish (not counting otos and shrimp) and strategically placed hardscape. And as appealing as that tank might look, eventually you will get bored and change it.

It really depends where you are in the hobby and what hobby your is. There's really three hobbies here: fish, plants, scaping.



My Scapes

How many times have we seen folks say they want to start a planted tank but they'll add the plants first and up the lighting later, or they have the lighting now and add the plants bit by bit as the money becomes available. Always makes me groan, I can see the dying plants/alagae problem posts coming.

::gulp::

Those were the days...

We as hobyists tend to over complicate it. Pseudo science is a big problem in this hobby.

Generally I think you're right about this and I agree with what i think you're getting at, but just to add something: I agree that in the overall scheme of things we as aquarists/ aquascapers/ espei breeders/ destroyers of protists/ etc. should allow ourselves to embrace the overall simplicity of keeping our planted tanks successful. Bensaf and plantbrain spelled out just how simple it can be in several posts in this thread and others, and we sometimes overanalyze and make the experience more complicated than it need be. However, I would argue that in a lot of ways overanalyzing is part of the fun of it all. Trying to understand and experimenting is what keeps it fresh. As tetra pointed out, it's what you want out of the hobby that will drive how you approach it. For example, if your goal is just to have a planted tnak that's nice to look at, period, then by all means make it as simple as possible for yourself and dont think too much about it. Focus on results and make it that much easier. For others, such as myself, playing around and figuring things out (with a little guidance ) is what it's all about. For me, anyway, that's what makes it a hobby, and it's part of what keeps me interested. That's nto to say I DON'T want a nice looking tank, or that I'm willing to put up with perpetual iffy results because we all want a tank that's nice to look at in the end. Maybe someday I'll get fed up with the playing around and all, but for now I'm a young buck and...well.. pass the test kits, I'm goin' in!

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Back in the saddle!

Nowher you are definitely somewher what that statement

My Scapes

Well you 2,

Sounds good

Change of subject: I tested yesterday evening the water in the moss - no detectable Ammonia.

Also, I observed in the last two days (evenings) that the adult Espei take a group of about 10 to 15 younger ones out for a tour through the tank. It always begins about 30 min after feeding. The group forms and swims from left to right and back again. Occasionally they stop to take an extra spin around some plants or the Reactor and once in a while some get lost and have to wait until the rest swims by again. It is really cool.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The group forms and swims from left to right and back again. Occasionally they stop to take an extra spin around some plants or the Reactor and once in a while some get lost and have to wait until the rest swims by again. It is really cool.

Nice that you appreciate that, I certaintly do. I'm still torn on which way to go with a big school, On one hand the pencils look so solid, but the group of 5 don't really school that often, maybe 20 would, the rummys are also very solid and are great schoolers, but they occupy a low strata and they kinda blend in. I have 10 of 21 cardinals left, so I'm hesistant to spend about $4 a fish (after deaths) to establish a school that I know I will find remains here and there. although I haven't introduced any since I got my UV. I could move my golds from my 12g, but they'll probably die in my 72 :%)



Last edited by tetratech at 15-Dec-2005 12:48

My Scapes

Well aren't we the loving sweet family today ? Kind of like the planted forum Brady Bunch [img src='/images/forums/halo.gif' border=0]

Who wants to be Marcia ?

Yeah, people are into this aspect of the hooby for many different reasons. Some are into the fish and the plants are just a background and water quality aide. Some are into the plants and the fish are just accessories. Some like the scaping , artistic end and others the pure science. It's all good, whatever rocks your boat.

I guess for most of us it's a mixture of all of the above.

Don't know about you, but I never had a burning ambition to build a planted tank. Kind of fell into it (the hobby not the tank ). The wife wanted one ( a decision she has come to regret a hundred times over). I hated that purple graveled death trap. Decided if that was going to be in our home I'd try to make it look good. Damn plants kept dying. Wife wanted to get rid of it , I wanted to get rid of it. But my natural contrariness preventing me from dumping it until I had figured out how to whip those plants into shape. And so it began.

As I progressed and learned more the 'scaping became more of a focus.

I've always like the simplicity. But there were so many plants I wanted to try to grow, I smoke therefore I have zero willpower, so there were always a lot of plants in my tanks.

That's changed now because over the years I've grown pretty much them all. I know the ones I like, I know the shapes and growth patterns, I know what to put where, I know what are a PITA and which are easy. So the science and desire to collect fades and the scaping and arranging becomes more interesting.

Science is factual, so it becomes easy, it's a matter of simply learning and memorising. I find the "artistic" side more challenging and interesting. It's subjective, there's is no right or wrong answer, it's not something you can learn from a book, it's personal, like all art it reflects something of the spirit (or lack thereof) of the creator. Combine this subjective stuff with the practicalities of having to know a plant in order to place it in the proper location, knowing which ones to use and knowing how to keep them looking healthy, and you have a pretty fascinating hobby.

I've found the simple tanks more challenging. It's not so easy to create something interesting and insipring with a small limited amount of plants. It's not difficult to make a big bouquet of flowers look nice, trying doing the same thing with a handful of daisies and a shrub.

Schooling fish ! Tetra, I'd definately keep the pencils. The rummies, I agree, while real tight schoolers and nice fish, can be a bit monotonous watching them go back and forth across the front bottom of the tank day in day out.The size and shape is too similar to the pencils also. Cardinals and Neons I always found a bit ho-hum, they just seem to sit there. I really like the look of Lemons, I've seen a lot of them here, those are tight fish, they school like they are attached by string. The size is nice and the more compressed shape would a nice contrast to the others.
Green Fire Tetras are stunners when they are in a good tank, look like washed out Neon wannabes in LFS tanks,but when they mature are real knockouts.

Last edited by bensaf at 15-Dec-2005 20:50

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Well aren't we the loving sweet family today ? Kind of like the planted forum Brady Bunch

Golly, does everyone get so crabby when they get old?


p.s. I'll be Peter...or Bobby... or whoever's the guy that has that TV show with that model from the other TV show...

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Back in the saddle!

Well Bensaf,

If we are the Brady Bunch then you are the Nanny, forgot the name though, the one who has control over almost all situations but occasionally messes things up .

As to “how did we get into planted tanks?” – It never struck my mind not to have a planted tank. Somehow fake decorations etc. never occurred to me as an option. I don’t know why, it just was that way.

As to my tank itself – Well, the threads are not lessening, actually they are multiplying. And yes, I haven’t dosed anything since last Saturday, but don’t yell at me. I needed to give it a try. Tonight (night before water change) I will measure my values again and see what the readings are compared to last Sunday.

I also ordered 5 liters of TMG from Big Al’s, that should last a few weeks . Did anybody read on the Tropica web site that soft water tanks need only half the dosage? I don’t seem to have read anything about this here yet.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

anybody read on the Tropica web site that soft water tanks need only half the dosage? I don’t seem to have read anything about this here yet.

If you check the bottle it also says you can increase the dosage by 50% in a well run tank.So it balances out.They give themselves wiggle room.

Go with the full dose. It's good stuff.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

If we are the Brady Bunch then you are the Nanny
That would be Alice.

Bensaf is Alice!

My Scapes

If we are the Brady Bunch then you are the Nanny

Well he does have that dress....

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

hmm.........A hit man in an Alice dress.........I don't know if we should go there!

LF,
I think that it is very cool that you started out the right way with live stuff. I started out with all sorts of fake stuff when I was younger. I have gradualy moved away from it because it just doesn't do much for me. You put it there and it never changes. Although some of the new fake plants actually look almost nice compared to the stuff I used to have.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Well he does have that dress....

Wingsdlc, I started out the same way. I still have my large plastic asian ambulia and silk sword plants in a box in my closet, and there they will stay. I remember getting really peaved when brown algae started growing on all my plants. I thought it was abnormal... as i said earlier, ahhh, the good ol' days

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Back in the saddle!

Well, I can see already many many posts where we identify who is which Brady

I guess from an experience level I should be the youngest of the boys (don’t know his name either).

You guys and gals can pick one of the others

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

If only because we share similar hair styles...



NowherMan6 attached this image:


Last edited by NowherMan6 at 16-Dec-2005 09:57[/font]

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Back in the saddle!

Oh Man!!!!

Don't you guys have to work??

Any ways if we are going to do this we need to do it right. Don't you guys remember the stuff a bit back about slightly older and younger brothers?

I will take clams on one of the girls being what hair I do have is blonde!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Ok then Wingsdlc, here you go:

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks Little Fish! Not going to anwser about the have to work thing??

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Wow you guys really have way too much time on your hands O.o

Ingo seems you started in a similar fashion as I. fake ornaments just really weren't of interest when you could have the real things.

Hm, lunch break maybe ?

I tend to relax from my job by taking short breaks once in a while and peruse the fish profiles.

Ingo

Megil: It wasn't so much that fake plants were not of interest, it literally didn't occur to me that this was an option. God knows how my tank would look like today if I would have thought about it before I started.

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 16-Dec-2005 11:38

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Let be glad you didn't then They really shouldn't be an option O.o

You guys make one demented family BTW, *whistles*



Last edited by Megil Tel'Zeke at 16-Dec-2005 11:44[/font]

TGIF:



tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Oh man...

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Back in the saddle!

After almost 800 posts these are the things that happen. I hope we don't crash the site it will be known as the Brady Syndrome.

My Scapes

That is great! Can you put a gun in bensaf's hands? After all he is a hit man.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

There are no hands to add guns too Wingsdlc

Tetra. just a wee bit to much time on your hands

Gang,

I did my water testing tonight. Just to refresh your memories (after all the Brady Bunch stuff ) I only dosed macros once right after the water change on Saturday and no micros at all.

Growth during the week has been strong, the duck weed on the surface has multiplied like mad. I will post a picture in a few minutes, right after I take it. There is more Algae and it occupies various plants in the tank, but nowhere as dense as on the moss. Here are the measuring results, first last week followed by this week (5 days between measuring):

Ph: 6.6 - 6.6
KH: 4 DH – 4 DH
CO2: 30ppm – 30ppm
Nitrates: about 20ppm – almost 20ppm, there is a slight difference in color, but not much
Phosphates: about 5ppm – almost 5ppm, there is a slight difference in color, but not much
Iron: Both times 0.1ppm and after 30 min about 0.3ppm

Grrrrrrrrrrrrr

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well, the photo came out crappy, but I guess you will get the point of strong growth.

First last weeks picture:

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And now this week. Just look at the Rotala Macandra on the left and right, the Apons in the left back, the Ludwigia "bush", and so forth, even the Crypt Retrospiralis has now leaves that are way over 25" long.

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Looks nice LF

So your plants are growing, pearling, smiling, etc. and according to your tests barely any of the ferts are being used and inspite of this growth and density you have more algae which should be pushed out of it's niche by all those smiling plants.

That's a tough one, sorry I can't help you!

My Scapes

No but seriously, IMO light is still a major trigger here. On one hand, the light, ferts, co2 extra is giving you really robust growth, but at the same time that light with all those little fishes is creating a cocktail that the algae are sucking down. I know, I know you measured nh3 and there is none, but it doesn't mean there's not enough in there for the algae. As we talked previously it is a fact the a heavy fish load makes a good balance harder to find. My tank's GW I believe is based more on mass/growth, when my plants were peaking and I was floating alot of plants and using the willow branches my tank did get clear, it got cloudy again (as Bensaf pointed out) when that growth/mass was gone. Now I've been dosing more than ever and I do not see any increase in algae and my rotala is making a major recovery and I'm starting to see something with the stargrass (a real head case plant)

My Scapes

What The hell of I started. Even Matty pops up out of nowhere (which came as quite the shock to nowherman) to bring up the "dress".....dammit IT WAS A SARONG.

I'm way to young to be Alice.

Kinda thought tetra would have gone for the little girl with the bangs. I can see him in bangs for some reason

Changed my mind, you folks are more like the Manson family then the Brady Bunch.

I'd be wary of the test kits, that much growth simply has to have led to a reduction in levels.

BTW the tank is looking real good. I like the grassy look.
Mainly, for really the first time it has a very cohesive flowing look. It looks like one tank now. The eye can move from one side to the other without any jars or jolts.

I'd love to see some driftwood in there though. That would really take it to the next level.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

IT WAS A SARONG.
Sure whatever you say Bensaf.

I can see him in bangs for some reason
It was a toss up!

I'd love to see some driftwood in there though
My thoughts exactly or another boulder breaking up that big mass left center.

Another thing I would do would trim the group leftcenter and move the rotala m. right center into the grouping. It distracts in the corners and makes it very obvious that your hiding equipment, but at the same time it's a beautful plant so it draws your attention to the equipment.

Last edited by tetratech at 16-Dec-2005 20:00

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LF,

Your growth rate is really wild. The plants in my tank are growing well but nothing like what you have going on. Remember though that I have 3.25 WPG, dosing Excel, and running diy Co2. Thats it. I have some algae but nothing bad. Just the hard green stuff on the glass. I am probably going to start dosing some green stump remover but I am going to wait until after Christmas. It kind of scares me because thngs are going fine and I am not so sure I want to mess with it. I also don't want to deal with the over grown issue.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Thanks all for the input.

Yeah, I don’t understand it either. The only explanations I have for the little changes in N and P are:

N is provided in form of ammonia (preferred by plants over NO3) from the 100 fish
P is used only in small quantities and that is why the kit can’t change colors as dramatic. I might very well have used up 1 to 2 ppm, but they are very close in color when in the 5ppm range.
As for the Iron, I am sure my kit sucks .

Today, I will have to do some major trimming again. The rotala on the right is breaking the surface, the moss needs to be cut off to get all the thread mass out, the ludwigia is growing too tall and shades it bottom parts completely, the pearl grass is very tall as well (will cut this and somehow try to create a larger group of it).

And I will remove about 70% of water to reset values. Then I will wait a little and do the testing yet again (maybe not iron though).

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Another thought. With all those fish, how many espei now about (100) there's obviously poop, but on the opposite end you must be feeding enough. And if I read you correct your kinda a softy with the fish, so you probably make sure they all get some. So between the fish food, po4 additions you getting those numbers. Also your probably not doing much gravel vac these days. Again is it possible the substrate is leaching no3 and po4 into the water column. Just ideas.

My Scapes

]:|]:|]:|]:|]:|

NOT a good day.

First off – I don’t like the way the tank looks now at all. I trimmed the Ludwigia and the Moss, tons of Moss. Somehow there is no balance in the tank anymore at all. Pictures will follow in a while.

Then I did a 70% water change and while I started to refill my wife decided to invite the neighbors to look at the tank. When I was almost done I realized that the heaters were on (they are supposed to shut off when the water falls too low) and the water temp was just above 70F. About 10 min after the tank was filled I heard this big cracking sound. The heater glass broke right in half.  !!!!

Raced of to the store, all they had was 200W Stealth, bought 2 for $80, raced home and put them in. Now I have 2x200W on the left and 1x300W on the right. I hope this works.

Ingo

PS: I hope the fish don't get Ich now.

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Och! Sorry to hear about that. Ya, I have the visi-therm stealth and I've never had a problem but I guess I will shut off when changing the water. You know they do sell inline heaters (Hydor) and I heard they were good. I have just one 250w heater on my tank and it heats the water fine.

and the water temp was just above 70F.
Why was the temp so low. Don't you match tank temp during WC?

Last edited by tetratech at 17-Dec-2005 14:21

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Thanks tetratech,

I guess it will take a few hours until the tank is heated back to the normal 76F. This tank is driving me crazy .

Anyways, here is the tank now:

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:


EDIT: yeah tetratech, I usually check with my hand (normally I am off only by 1 degree plus minus). But as I said, the wife got a whole family to come over and watch the tank while I refilled it, with 2 small kids. I forgot to check if the temp was ok after the water ran for a while as I had to make sure nobody did something stupid ]:|.

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 17-Dec-2005 14:24[/font]

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

But as I said, the wife got a whole family to come over and watch the tank while I refilled it, with 2 small kids. I forgot to check if the temp was ok after the water ran for a while as I had to make sure nobody did something stupid

Believe me, I could definitely relate. I always get nervous the kids are going to fool around in the kitchen and crack my tank. I actually stick a thermoter in the sink so when I'm adjusting temp with the python it shows me what the water temp is and then I fill.




My Scapes

I prefer these junglesque arrangements to other, heavily pruned, straight edged aquascapes. VERY nice.

Thanks Cup

I appreciate it.

“junglesque” – I will have to remember that. Yeah, that was the style I was going for all the way .

I have to admit that it doesn’t look as bad as I may have made it sound before I posted the picture. I added a small powerhead (Rio 90) to the left back as the way the Apons and the Crypt Retro were flowing was just awful after the trimming of the big Ludwigia bush. Now they seem to flow nicer (in my opinion).

I wonder if I soon should try to split the Crypt and how I would go about this. Probably dig it out and take any potential baby plant off and plant it separately, right?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club