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But as I said, the wife got a whole family to come over and watch the tank while I refilled it, with 2 small kids. I forgot to check if the temp was ok after the water ran for a while as I had to make sure nobody did something stupid

Believe me, I could definitely relate. I always get nervous the kids are going to fool around in the kitchen and crack my tank. I actually stick a thermoter in the sink so when I'm adjusting temp with the python it shows me what the water temp is and then I fill.




My Scapes

I prefer these junglesque arrangements to other, heavily pruned, straight edged aquascapes. VERY nice.

Thanks Cup

I appreciate it.

“junglesque” – I will have to remember that. Yeah, that was the style I was going for all the way .

I have to admit that it doesn’t look as bad as I may have made it sound before I posted the picture. I added a small powerhead (Rio 90) to the left back as the way the Apons and the Crypt Retro were flowing was just awful after the trimming of the big Ludwigia bush. Now they seem to flow nicer (in my opinion).

I wonder if I soon should try to split the Crypt and how I would go about this. Probably dig it out and take any potential baby plant off and plant it separately, right?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Weekly Update – Week 12

Well, this was a week of experimenting with my fertilizers. Although I have dosed K, N, and P only once and micros not at all my readable values on the test kits barely showed a change. Ideas of how this can be are manifold, but none is conclusive. Maybe it has to do with the increased fish load and amount of food I provide (tetratech’s last idea) and I should try to monitor if it all gets eaten soon enough. I am certain that I feed too much (only once a day though) as I want to make sure that the tiny ones at the bottom get their share too.

I also managed to have a heater blow out after a 70% water change. This sucker was supposed to shut off when the water level falls (I think) but I guess it didn’t; and a major distraction led to me filling the tank with only 70F warm water. All it took was 10 more minutes and bang – the glass cracked in half.

Currently my worries are concerning future fertilizer dosages, if the trimming this weekend will limit the algae in the tank, if my fish will show any damage from the temperature difference (like Ich), and if I should try another round of Excel treatment to further limit the algae (the last half-hearted one did not succeed). So plenty to keep at least my brain busy .

The pictures will be of week 0, 3, 6, 9, and yesterday – week 12.

I will also tag on a few detail shots and a section regarding the life of the Espei .

Ingo

Week 0 – how it all started

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Week 3 – the “weed” phase

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Week 6 – scaping attempts begin

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Week 9 – scape is taking more shape

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Week 12 – yesterday – major removal of moss and trimming (cutting tops and removing bottoms) of ludwigia. Also trimmed the rotala. The Apons have grown pretty much to the surface now , the sword uruguayensis doesn’t do much and is still not visible in pictures (is in front of reactor)

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Now some detail shots:

First up some nice long algae threads lower in the tank on the sags. This kind is settled by now in various places, low and high.

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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A nice shot of the crypt – pearl grass – apon group, with some of the trimmed ludwigia on the right

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Another glosso shot, taken because of the vertical growth that appears in places with limited light. Almost like a regular stem plant.

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Uh, now some days in the life of the Espei:

This is one that is maybe 2 weeks old. Pretty much the whole fish is see-through and the tiny yellow and black spot are developing.

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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And here is one that is approximately 4 weeks old. The markings become clearer, in particular the black spot.

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Now this one is a juvenile of about 7 weeks. The body shape is pretty much that of an adult now, the coloration stretches the complete section as in adults, but is a rather bright yellow.

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Here we have a juvenile that is old enough to join the adults in the school, at least for some time during the day. I guess the age is about 10 weeks. The coloration has now turned more to the characteristic orange-yellow that is seen in adult females.

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Last but not least here is a male adult in “breeding” colors. He is truly red and when seen in the tank he sometimes has even a tint of purple to it.

[font color="#C00000"]Make sure that you see the pictures on the previous page showing younger Espei [/font]

Ingo

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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May I say it's very pretty thread algae. You know there are some setups I've seen that are put together just showing algae. Sometimes it's attractive. I would definitely do the calibration. I think for the most part test kits usually work, but there's no benchmark for the color. You need to set that and test off of that. It will be interesting to see if your fert adjustments do anything, but the whole idea of EI is that you don't have to worry about fine-tuning you could dose in excess and than it's removed via WC. You are doing 50% weekly. How many fish are really in the tank? My vote is still for high fish load, high light ---- Algae!! 3 wpg on a 125 is alot of light. You could try reduced the peak period to like 2 hours and see what affect it has.

BTW - On the Rotala M. are you ditching the bottoms and replanting tops only?



My Scapes

tetratech,

Thanks for the compliment on the beauty of my algae

It took me quite a while until I had the tank parameters correct so it grows horizontally like your Wisteria

I have reduced the light last week to 3 hours, but didn’t find this worth mentioning. So out of only 11 hours lighting period 8 are on slightly over 1.5wpg.

Even EI desires a max of NO3 of 20ppm and the default values for adding it are tuned to no fish and food additions. So it makes only sense that you have to adjust the values when “other” factors are coming into play.

The Rotala – once in a while I replant tops while other times I just cut off tops and let the bottoms in the substrate.

Ingo

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Uh, I forgot to add a close-up of the trimmed Rock Valley.

Here it is at rush hour

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Ok,

So I did what I actually wanted to do yesterday, measuring my tank parameters. I limited it to N and P.

Remember, I did a 70% water change and before that had about 20ppm N and close to 5ppm of P. My tab is (by last measure from quite a while ago) around 2 ppm of P. I haven’t added any ferts (except 1/2 a tsp of Seachem Equilibrium) to the tank after the water change and fed the fish once since then.

N is around 10ppm and P maybe 3ppm (hard to tell, but closer in color to 2 than 5). Both values make somewhat sense, in particular the P. The N seems a little high, but measuring steps of 5 – 10 -20 leave room for color mistakes. Pretty much what I expected then.

So I will dose the following macros today:

EDIT: Value correction
KNO3 – 1/2tsp
Potassium Sulfate– 1/4tsp
P – nada

For the micros I will wait until tomorrow and hope my TMG will arrive as I have not much faith in Plantex anymore (for no particular reason, but I cannot even find a table or such anymore where I could check how much I am supposed to add – I thought I got the initial value of ½ a tsp from APCs fertilator, but it is not there anymore).

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 18-Dec-2005 17:44

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Why not go back to source for Plantex dosing reccommendation.

http://www.gregwatson.com/HowToDosePlantex.htm

I honestly don't think that's the issue, but I don't know for sure and I guess it's good to eliminate it if that's the case. I've been dosing now 10ml Flourish every other day along with 5ml Flourish trace and I have not seen any increase in algae even with my limited mass.

My Scapes

tetratech,

thanks for the link to the Greg Watson page. I think I am not smart enough to figure out what he is advertising. Here are a few things I don’t understand:

- First off this is a calculation for Plantex CSM+B, I have the one with 10% of Iron (this one is 7)
- The he says to mix 1 tablespoon of it AND 1 tablespoon of Magnesium Sulfate with 0.5 liters of water. I never added any Magnesium besides what is in my Seachem Equilibrium, am I supposed to?
- Then he says you could also mix 1 teaspoon with 1/6 liters (=167ml) of water. In this calculation he doesn’t include Magnesium, why?
- Then he links to the Krib for dosing instructions. We know it is an “old” site, but this statement falls right in line with what I thought – “Dosing just a little bit too much PMDD can lead to a nutrient excess that will give unwanted algae a foothold”. That was before EI, so I will keep this info as a sidenote . Then the Krib moves on and suggests 1/12ml per 10G, which would mean 120G = 1ml per day to get started. For fully functioning tanks they suggest to double the dose, so 2ml per day. If I fertilize 6 days a week that would be 12ml per week
- Then he says you can dose about 1.25 times the Flourish amount. Flourish suggests to use 5ml for 60G (once or) twice a week, so that would be 10ml for 120G and 20ml per week. Now this value times 1.25 gives me 25ml.
- So there is a 50% difference between Krib and Seachem dosing suggestions. Let’s assume the higher value is good, means I would dose 25ml of solution per week.


Now here comes the interesting part (in case you found the other parts boring). 25ml out of a 167ml solution (containing 1tsp of Plantex CSM+B) are approximately 15% of the solution, or in other words 0.15tsp of Plantex CSM+B. I have been dosing 1.5tsp per week for the first 11 weeks of the tanks existence, 10 times the amount per week ]:|]:|]:|

This would explain why I have great problems dissolving my bi-daily micro ferts in even ½ a gallon of water.

Do I misinterpret the Greg Watson statement?
Do I have errors in my calculation?
What am I not getting?
Should I also feed extra Magnesium Sulfate?

ANY HELP IS GREATLY APPRECIATED IN SOLVING MY MATH CONFUSION.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Holy moly, and here I thought the whole purpose of EI was to not have to worry so much about this stuff...


EDIT: great pics by the way, very nice timeline of fry growth

Last edited by NowherMan6 at 19-Dec-2005 09:20

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Back in the saddle!

NowherMan6,

I guess the whole EI thingy is geared more towards the macros. It seems one is pretty much on their own when caculating micros .

Ingo

Anyone have an answer for me?

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Still nobody able to help me with the questions 3 posts back?

Come on tetratech, at least you can verify that I interpreted the Greg Watson statement right

Ingo

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Sorry LF, I'm under the gun on a project and I've only been able to post a few quick messages here and there.

I'll probably read your post thru tomorrow and see how I interpret it.

I still say someone should come up with a formula for mass x growth x waste (Is there an Einstein in the house) I guess Bensaf will have to do.

My Scapes

Gee, don't look at me. I don't know anything about Plantex. I seriously doebt can tell you how much is consumed against plant mass or what is wasted. It's an unknown, we can only guess on observation. Experience would suggest the upper limits are relatively high.

I'd say the confusion on dosages between the hopping back and forth info on The Krib is linked to it's use in PMDD. Remember Plantex was just one component of the PMDD solution, macros were also added. I'd suspect the dosing on those sites is based on a PMDD solution rather then a Plantex only solution.

I guess the whole EI thingy is geared more towards the macros. It seems one is pretty much on their own when caculating micros

Not not really. There are very clear dosage rates for Micros in EI. But it's in terms of using Flourish or TMG or equivilent rather then Plantex.
The only answer I'd have is to dose 20-30ml of either TMG or Flourish 3 times a week. This will take care of everything and the micros will be balanced out in relation to FE. I prefer TMG , it's got a good FE chelator, seems to produce a better sheen to plants. Flourish seems to produce slightly fuller growth, but not as shiny sparkly as the TMG. Just my own observations from using them, could all be a figment of my imagination though.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

The only answer I'd have is to dose 20-30ml of either TMG or Flourish 3 times a week. This will take care of everything and the micros will be balanced out in
That's pretty much in line with what I'm doing in my 72g.
10ml flourish 3/week, plus I'm adding in 5ml flourish trace as well.

I still say someone should come up with a formula for mass x growth x waste (Is there an Einstein in the house) I guess Bensaf will have to do
Actually I should have been clearer, I meant in general as an algae control measure not dosing plantex

Last edited by tetratech at 19-Dec-2005 21:55

My Scapes

Thanks Bensaf and tetratech,

Yeah, when I said one is on its own on micros I forgot to mention that I meant "when using other sources, like Plantex".

I, for my part, will no longer have to struggle with it as my 5 liter TMG bottle will arrive today .

So 30ml 3 x per week is 90ml per week. That means the bottle will last 55 weeks

Still, I could swear that I saw Plantex on the Fertilator a while back (when I got this tank) and I wonder if they took it off because the measurements were wrong. Just trying to blame someone else for my micro dosing amounts .

Ingo

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Well,

The TMG came last night, but I couldn’t use it yet. I have been at the company Xmas party and came home way too late (and too drunk) to do any dosing .

Also, the 5 liter bottle from Big Al’s doesn’t have any dosing instructions on it. Neither does it list the ingredients. I will check out the Tropica site for details.

This means that my tank hasn’t seen any micros in a week and a half, and only very limited amounts of macros (no P at all). I will measure P and N tonight before dosing anything.

Ingo

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Gang,

Well, I measured N and P again, last time was on Sunday, if I remember that right.

P is still above 2ppm, but not by much anymore.
N, on the other hand, bottomed out and is not detectable anymore. That means the plants sucked up 10ppm in 3 days, not too shabby .

I dosed 1/2tsp of KNO3 and 1/8tsp Potassium Sulfate right away.

Somehow I still have not found out how much TMG to dose, first no time and then a PC virus]:| that had to be fixed. I will add 20ml in a little while. Is there the same concern that dosing macros and micros at the same time can cause a bad chemical reaction?

Ingo

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If I remember correctly the dosing for TMG is 5ml per 50lts of water a week. It also states you can go +/- 50% depending on how established the tank.

I dosed 10-15ml 3 times a week. For your tank 20-30mls X 3 will be fine.

Doing Iron and P at the same time can cause a little cloudiness. Dosing a few hours apart should be fine.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Bensaf,

Thanks for the TMG info.

I guess I will stay then with bi-daily fertilizations whereby macros are on micro off days. We will find out what impact, if any, this change from Plantex to TMG will have.

I also created a new thread about my Apons which grow one really long (special) leaf each. Thread is [link=Here]http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Planted%20Aquaria/67334.html?09921381#" style="COLOR: #ff6633[/link]

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

- Did my weekly water change.
- Replanted some plants
- Trimmed the Pearl Grass

Looks like ]:| ]:| ]:|

Will post pictures maybe tomorrow or on Monday,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

ONE 125g tank
+Littlefish
+Tetra
+Bensaf
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One LONG thread

you all are crazy. that tank looks amazing. personally ill stick to the old rule of thumb... K.I.S.S (Keep it simple stupid)

Sin in Style – thanks for the comments

you all are crazy. that tank looks amazing. personally ill stick to the old rule of thumb... K.I.S.S (Keep it simple stupid)

Well, thanks, I guess

But what is the fun in keeping it simple? I like a good challenge, even if I lose once in a while .

And yes, the 3 of us, plus NowherMan6 and a few other, really have the magic to create painfully long threads .

Will post new tank pictures during the day as I did not yet have the time (with all the Xmas stuff going on) to take any.

Ingo

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Weekly Update – Week 13

The tank is now up and running for about 3 months, and what a time it was. It feels like forever and on the other hand like no time at all. Things happen so fast and creep along at the same time.

This week was marked by a change in micro fertilizer, switching from Plantex to TMG, we will see if this has a positive impact on the thread algae that is still growing nicely in the tank. I also started another “Excel Treatment” as I have enough of this stuff. I know that this I way will eliminate the identification of reduced algae (if any), but my goal is to get rid of it as soon as I can .

The last water change was accompanied by some pruning, the potential flower stems of the Apons have been cut as they did not seem to carry any flowers. The ends were thinning just below the flower area on on plant while I must have missed the point when the second pierced the surface as it was creeping along the top while staying in water contact all the way. Also, the Pearl Grass has been ripped out and the bottom parts have been disposed off and tops were replanted. Quite a few Sags and Chain Swords have been removed in the process. This gave me the option to divide the mystery Althernanthera, I guess it is a “reineckii 'Lilacina'” into a few pieces and replanting them as a group.

Here are some full tank shots from the last 5 weekends and a few details as well.

First the tank at week 9:

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Then week 10, the vals have been replaced by cyperus helferi and the apons planted in week 9 are beginning to show:

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Week 11, everything keeps on growing :

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Week 12, ludwigia and rotala macandra have been trimmed, the rest is growing even more:

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Week 13, this weekend, changes have been performed as described in the weekly tank update post above:

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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The new Althernanthera group, maybe someone can now identify which type it is:

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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The Apon all the way to the top. The left one is yet again developing a floating leaf, the second in a row. Bensaf is probably right on this plant not being a crispus after all:

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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I am positively surprised by the narrow leaf sag subulata. It has reached the surface and waves nicely in the current:

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Previous post deleted, I guess 97kb is not less than 100

Here is a close-up of the ludwigia with crypt retrospiralis on the left (very long leaves by now) and the narrow leaf sags on the right:

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Last but not least a shot of the glosso. Very soon I will have to trim the plant as it is now layer over layer of glosso:

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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It looks like plain old Reineckii to me.

But not a very happy Reineckii by the looks of it. It's a painfully slow grower for a stem plant.

Try to leave it and let grow as tall as possible. I find as it gets taller it gets much more sturdy looking. The leaves get bigger and wider and the underside a bright purple. It should branch out a bit too.After that trim it by uprooting and discarding the bottom , it will continue to grow big and strong. Not sure if this is because it gets closer to light or it just needs some time and room to grow.

It can be a very bold strong plant but takes time. It's quite e to stunting if the nitrates drop too low. Leave it there and let it grow as tall as possible (it could take 2 months to hit the surface) , you should see it get wider. Once it's tall enough you can move it anywhere you like.

Personally I find it's so strong looking with the upward pointing leaves it's better suited at the back with just the top half sticking out from dense greenery. When it's tall the lights reflecting off the bright purple undersides can be quite stunning.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Bensaf,

Thanks for the plant ID. Plain old Reineckii, hm, no fancy middle name like bensafii or ingoii, too bad .

Yeah, tell me about it being a slow grower. It is in the tank since the beginning and hasn’t done much at all. It only started to grow (and branch out) when the Pearl Grass shadowed it and it needed to stretch to get the light it requires. Most likely that is why it looks so sad, too much shade in the last 2 weeks. But I was able to take 3 of its side branches and plant them separately, plus the main stem with the bottom cut off.

I agree that it should be better in the back of the tank once it has grown to sufficient size, but I guess with the current growth speed this will be at my 60th birthday .

Ingo

Anyone has any comments/suggestions for the tank in general?

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Well, you could definitely grow plants. Now that the pissing contest is over, I hope someone stuffed your stocking with driftwood or rocks.

My Scapes

What :%)

There was a contest? Where was I? Did I miss that all? Or are you talking about your stones? I don’t want them in my Xmas stocking .

Na, didn’t get any driftwood or rocks for Xmas, not even the 55G African Lake Setup I asked for .

Ingo

PS: And what do you mean with I could grow plants, I thought that is what I am doing :%) ?

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55G African Lake Setup I asked for
Are you moving toward salt water?

Pissing contest, just an expression because your plants are growing.

The driftwood would really break up the different plant types.


My Scapes

No, I am not moving towards SW tanks, at least not in the foreseeable future. My wife just happened to as k me what I want for Xmas, and, having no specific idea, I said a 55G African Lake Cichlid tank, knowing very well that I will not get it .

Thanks for the US English 201 help, never heard that term .

Yeah, I have started to look for wood, but I need enormous sized to make an impact. I have stones that wouldn’t even fit in a Nano tank simply disappear in my setup.

Ingo

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Yeah, I have started to look for wood, but I need enormous sized to make an impact.

I totally agree you desperately need to some driftwood. This alone will transform your tank from a tank with plants to an actual aquascape. It's crrying out for it.

I don't know where you get this idea you need an enormous piece. You don't. I've mention before a lot of aquascaping is sleight of hand. Lots of small pieces can be made to look like a big impresive piece. My own tank which is only half the size of yours has six different pieces of wood piled on top of one another. It's impossible to tell where one ends and another starts. 70% is not visible anyway.

What you want are branches poking out to add dynamics and depth. Sections that can be planted with moss/fern/anubias to give height and layers. The wood itself doesn't need to be a feature or focal point, it just needs to be a base, a division of areas and a may of adding highlights and accents through the branches. It's doesn't need to be a monumantal attractive piece of wood in itself.

Some go mad with the wood and it becomes a distraction. Look at the good tanks , the wood is usually just branches poking out, the bulk ofthe wood is either planted over or hidden by rocks etc.

A few pieces of branchy driftwood will work fine. Doesn't need to be spectacular or big. Lots of small pieces can be piled up together to get the same effect.Pieces can put on top of a rock "stage" to give height. Wood is real easy to pile up safely, it's not like rock.

As your looking for comments i'll give you my 50 bucks worth (I can never stop a 2 cents ).

I like the tank, it's a real nice foundation. The grassy flowing green look is really good. But that's all it is at the the moment - a foundation. There's no drama, no focus, there's nowhere for the eye to rest, nothing that drags me in and makes me want to look further, needs a bit more depth.

The brush strokes of wood would be a huge help.The other thing I'd do is have a thick grouping of a big strong colorful stem plant. Macrandra is a real nice plant but it's too delicate in a large tank to be a focal. You are using it just fine as is and I wouldn't move it. The Ludwigia is too ho hum to get noticed. I'd go gor a big thicket of a real strong plant to go where the Ludwigia is now. Something like Stella Broadleaf, Limnophilia Aromatica or Ammania Gracillis. This are big wide bold colorful plants. Replacing the same number of stems of Ludwigia with the same number of stems of one of these plants would make a bigger bolder more colorful statement without increasing maintenance.

These two additions would improve your tank hugely without any extra work (wood is zero maintenance).

Ok that was more like $60 worth

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Bensaf,

A check over $60 is on its way

Yeah, I didn’t mean one gigantic piece when I said huge. My thoughts were more geared towards length and branched. If I want to have 30% showing of the wood then the branch length would have to be at least 20inches. And it should preferably be of the same kind of wood. Maybe I send tetratech out to scout the LFS in Long Island to see if they have such sticks.

Ammania Gracillis and the likes: I guess all of that could fall into place once I have found the wood as it would give the tank a whole new look in the first place. I currently love my tall grassy plants and I could imagine having more areas in the back and middle planted with them. I actually don’t like my dwarf sags and pygmy chains that much anymore. They spread like mad and for some unknown reason some of them seem to wither away – their leaves are desintigrating – although they get enough light for sure.

At least I don’t have to worry about getting bored with the tank.

Thanks again for the input, I will try my best,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Maybe I send tetratech out to scout the LFS in Long Island to see if they have such sticks.

The real branchy pieces are hard to find, I don't have those either. Mine have length but don't really branch off.

My DW in the middle was actually part of a bigger piece that I took a sawsall to. You could do that but the area that is cut will not look natural, but as Bensaf pointed out most of it is or eventually will be hidden.

My Scapes

Somehow I still have that fantasy where I snorkel in a lake in the area here and come up with just the right driftwood. But there are a few reasons why this might not work:

a) Way too cold to snorkel
b) I don’t know how to identify the tree from which such wood would come and as such might introduce wood that will rot away quickly
c) It is hard to convince the family that Papa has to go on a driftwood hunting trip

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

d)Depends on what part of Jersey your snorkling in.

LF I was in Plainsboro NJ (Right near Princeton) on Monday. Took Exit 8a NJ Turnpike.

My Scapes

Yeah, I was not intending to snorkel anywhere in NJ, don’t want to get a rash

I was thinking more about Upstate New York.

Exit 8 on the Turnpike is probably as far away from me as you are.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Gang,

On the menu for this week is another attempt to get my fertilizing routine to be more stable and to not supersede the target values.

As such I feed

Potassium Nitrate every other day only 1/2 of a teaspoon
Potassium Sulfate every other day only 1/8 of a teaspoon
TMG on the same days as the macros 20ml

On Friday evening I will measure Phosphates (tab = 2ppm and has been a little higher before the last water change) and Nitrates (which I purposefully let bottom out over a week ago as an experiment) and see if I need to add some more in the future.

I also currently do another Excel dosing session (since the last water change) with the initial dosage of 50ml and every day since then 20ml. I was hoping it would help me to get rid of the thread algae that remained in the tank after the major pruning attempt 2 weeks ago. So far it doesn’t look like it would help, although I haven’t seen any additional growth either (maybe I am not looking close enough). But a few bushels of brush algae that I have (nothing major) are turning red and are dying.

Ingo

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On Friday evening I will measure Phosphates (tab = 2ppm and has been a little higher before the last water change) and Nitrates (which I purposefully let bottom out over a week ago as an experiment) and see if I need to add some more in the future.
Jersey Water

That's interesting with the excel, so it REALLY worked the first time and after that it wasn't as effective with the same dosing. Did it work on all algae, even BGA which isn't really algae. So your dosing 5 times normal and then 2 times.

I might try it in my 12g which has some BGA or in the 72g which has BBA on the rocks.





My Scapes

tetratech,

I am not sure what kind of algae is affected by the Excel.

BBA for sure, as I see it die ].

BGA – I haven’t tried it on BGA as the only time I had that in my big tank I treated it with Maracyn, and that was weeks before the first Excel attempt. Maracyn works very well.

The second round of Excel treatment wasn’t a full blown attack (maybe 2 to 3 weeks back) but more of a half-hearted attempt to achieve something. Well, that didn’t work what-so-ever.

The first round was performed when I in particular had a significant amount of BBA and that worked very well (dosing 50ml then 50%water change, 50ml, 20ml, 20ml, 20ml, 20ml, 20ml).

This time around I have very few BBA and it is already dying, but the thread doesn’t seem to care (but no growth either, which could also stem from normalized Phosphate values and/or switching to TMG, aka less Iron addition). So far, I dosed 50ml, 20ml, 20ml, 20ml, 20ml, and I plan to dose 2 more days at 20ml each.

Ingo

EDIT: I replaced the Brush term with BBA as I think that is what I have/had, if there is any difference.

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 29-Dec-2005 08:04

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Maracyn
The regular mardel product, regular dosing?

Brush term with BBA
There's many different types of brush algae, but yes brush and bba is one in the same as far as these dicussions.



My Scapes

The regular Mardel product, yes.

I forgot what the regular dosage was, but I think I even stayed on the light side of it.

I added 4 tablets, spread throughout the tank, each day for 5 days. Bensaf didn’t like that, he never made a comment about it after I used it, but when I mentioned I will give this a try he voted against it.

I also used it on my 20G (which was the first tank I used it on) and it worked also very well. I actually assume I introduced BGA to the big tank by adding plants (the Rotala) from the 20G that were already infested.

In addition, on both tanks, I changed the water flow as there were some very low current areas. In the 20 I repositioned the HOB to the middle of the tank, in the 125 I added temporarily a powerhead to blow some current across the front of the tank (things have changed since then again, as you know).

Ingo

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Interesting,

I didn't have bga in my 12 until I changed the light from 1.1wpg to 2.3wpg. My 12 actually has very good water movement from the HOB and it you could see the java moss swaying in the current. The tank has very little mass (just java moss and some wisteria). The filter is a small whisper HOB from the AGA 5gallon I had. I had a sheet of coarse filter media and I just threw it in.

I believe this comes down to waste and light again. My guess is the tank has too much light and not enough biofilter to control the BGA. BGA is a bacteria after all. I've now added some eheim efisubstrate to the filter and put some eco complete from the 72g into the back of the tank. This is my educated guess. If this doesn't work I will either do the marcyan or emycin.

My Scapes

Tetratech,

I think BGA can manifest itself in many ways. So far I have heard about:

a) Foreign introduction (plants, gravel from other tank etc)
b) Low Nitrates with other nutrients being available (can fix its own Nitrate)
c) Lack of current

I would rule out light as a direct source. Sure, it will speed up the process of growth, but it seems to appear in low light tanks as well as high light tanks.

What an interesting little bugger this is .

Ingo

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Ok,

Because I am bored, here is another part from the Espei Education Department

I hope I don’t bore you all too much

Location division within the tank

The oldest juveniles (maybe 9 weeks and up) and the adults occupy the top levels of the water. They preferably hang out on the left side of the tank.

Younger juveniles (between 4 and 9 weeks) are scattered throughout the tank, on low levels close to the substrate.

Even younger ones (2 to 4 weeks) team up on the lower right hand side of the tank, in the back.

And the tiny fry (less than 2 weeks) is hiding most of the time within the plants close to the substrate.

Here is a shot of the left side with the old guys

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Here, I made an effort to count them, I think I circled 44 in this picture

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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And here, already circled, are the 2 to 4 week old ones on the left of the Macandra group

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Interesting about the fish locations by size. I definitely see why you go by the name of Little_Fish.

So in the tank you have a few otos, 2 gourmais, and a few hundred espei?

My Scapes

Yeah, being a fish-newbie was only one reason why I selected the name LITTLE_FISH. The others were that I like little fish (not that hard to guess) and I made it upper case to put some emphasis behind it . Like a little fish with really big teeth .

Acutally, the tank currently has 6 Otos (as of last Saturday when I was lucky enough to see them all) and 5 million Espei (acutally, I guess there are still less than 100, maybe 80).

The Pearls are still in the QT as I don't want to introduce them while I am still messing with the tank like a madman .

Ingo

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So there's no enemy for the espei other than the adults themselves and the filter intake?

My Scapes

That's right

They got their own version of Garden Eden, and the filter intake is the the snake that lures them into biting into the apple (eh - didn't come up with something better) .

Ingo

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LF,

That works for me.

As for being bored how about sending me some Glosso? = ) Take your time. I might actually place an order for some a long with some other plants. I need to do some checking around first.



55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Wingsdlc,

Let me know if you ordered some Glosso.

Otherwise, I will have to find a good way to ship it to you. Any suggestions, like UPS, USPS, overnight, or what?

I would probably have to cut it in the evening and have it float over night, then pack it in the morning and have the wife bring it to the sender (Post Office or UPS drop off) in the morning.

Ingo

PS: I have never shipped any plants anywhere

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Going to PM you.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Ok,

I measured my tank parameters again yesterday evening, at least N and P.

N is back up to almost 20ppm, even if it was completely depleted a week earlier and I only added 3 x 1/2tsp of KNO3 during the week.
P stands as about 2ppm, which is a little less than last weekend, and I didn’t add any.
The only other elements I added to the tank where 3 x 20ml of TMG, 3 x 1/8tsp of Potassium Sulfate, and a daily shot of Excel (as described a few posts earlier).

I guess for the next week I will keep this schedule, I would assume that P will fall a little below 2ppm and N might get a little over 20ppm.

Problems that I currently have still include the thread algae that, although not rampant, is doing just fine in the tank (high lights are down to 3 hours per day since weeks). Also, some of my Dwarf Sags and/or Pygmy Chain Swords have melting leaves, I will have to read up on that as it has happened on and off during the entire time the tank is set up.

A weekly water change will follow later today,

Ingo

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I can't imagine with all those plants that your n is so high. Did you ever do the PPS calibration? When I did that I was surprised. My levels were lower than I thought by simply looking at those ridiculous color charts.

What would add to N all that espei poop and those melting leaves? Oh I forgot, Jersey water



My Scapes

No tetratech,

to my shame I have to say that I did not do the PPS calibration yet. And it might very well be that it has something to do with the Jersey water .

Ingo

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Weekly Tank Update – Week 14

Well, this one could also be labeled annual tank update, although it would be only the first one of its kind (in the hope that another will follow in one year; I wonder what that would look like). The tank is now up and running for 14 weeks, many many posts account for all the things that have been going on in that time. The ones that stick mostly in my memory are:

- Planting of the initial setup seemed to be a lot of plants, but in retrospect was only a rather small mass.
- I would guess that half of the plant species from the initial setup are no longer in the tank. All but one did not seem to fit the design of the tank any longer, and the one (Egeria Densa) fell victim to a rigorous Excel treatment.
- Various types of algae have befallen the tank during this time, from the rather harmless Brown Slime to the not so pleasant Blue Green Algae. None was so bad that the tank had to be stripped down but there were annoying anyways. The currently active one is Thread algae that do not seem to be very impressed by an Excel cure.
- Most importantly was (is) the breeding of my Espei that, within all this mess mentioned above, managed to grow their population by at least 500% to anywhere from 70 to 100 fish.

As for changes during the last week, not much has changed. This water change saw some pruning of the Ludwigia and the cutting of some runners of the Chain Swords as they always try to invade the Glosso. I sure don’t have a low maintenance tank, but that was not the intention anyway.

Well, I initially thought about posting all the weekly tank pictures, but I think that 15 are a little too much and get boring. So I will show every other week to shorten the pain.

Here is the tank at setup, soooooo many plants

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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2 weeks later the tank was at full bloom, lots of fast growers were making sure that the tank establishes itself as fast as possible.

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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In week 4 the first steps at some scaping were taken, most of the really bushy fast growers had been removed by then as they were outgrowing any other plant in the tank.

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Week 6 saw more scaping, still in the beginning though. The Dwarf Sags and Pygmy Chain Swords are still small and sparse.

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In and around week 8 major replanting occurred where entire groups of plants have been moved from one location to another, or even left the tank all together to make space for new plant types.

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Week 10 marked the end of this replanting frenzy and only smaller changes like pruning etc start to take preference.

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Week 12 sees the plants growing, in particular the new Apons are starting to show their size.

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This weekend, week 14. As you can see, small plants have grown to medium size, medium one to really tall, except for the ones that just have been pruned. Somehow, the Uruguaensis in front of the Power Reactor is still not reaching any visible size, one has to look for it (in the tank, not the picture). The same counts for 3 Crypt Lucens that pretty much haven’t done anything since planted. Making the assumption that they are medium high plants I placed them half way to the back (in front of the Apons) and now no one can see them.

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Some tank details: I like the way the tank looks when half the water is removed during the water change. It is so green and the long leaves of various plants create a nice floating carpet on the surface. Sometimes I wonder if I should keep it like that permanently.

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Here is a close-up of some Glosso towards the left side of the tank. Wherever Glosso is beginning to create a carpet but doesn’t yet have a very dense appearance this kind of algae grows in between. I cannot remove it either as it is attached to the rocks that hold the Glosso roots in place.

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The Rotala group just keeps on growing; I should have trimmed these two long stems this weekend but didn’t feel like it. Next weekend for sure.

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[font color="#C00000"]See previous page for weekly tank update pictures and more detail shots[/font]

And yes, we have another blossom on the Anubias. I just love the simplicity of their appearance.

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Another good thing during the water changes is that I can most of the time find all my Otos, here are 3 of them torpedoing below the Espei.

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I like the waving appearance of the Crypt Retrospiralis, although the leaves are really long by now. How long do they get anyway? I think this plant needs to go to a tank side, or – if I ever find some good driftwood – behind that.

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Last but not least a shot of the Rock Valley. It looks very green these days, all around. The Cyperus Helferi has not grown in height at all since planted, but it seems to get a little fuller. Is this it’s final height already? That would not be good.

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Very nice LF. Nice way to start the New Year.

-I really like that pick as well showing the tank 1/2 full.
-I forgot are you cutting the tops on the Rotala or once trimmed replanting the tops.
-As Bensaf and I have both commented, your tank is really is dire need of DW and/or visible rock to make it look naturally handsome.
-Small note I removed the Anubias from my tank it simply doesn't work well with my setup.
-I'm wondering if your deep glosso foreground with that matrix of leaves and algae is harboring no3 and po4 by trapping waste and food and then leaching it into the water column. Maybe Bensaf has a thought.

Happy New Year and Happy Driftwood Hunting!


My Scapes

tetratech,

Thanks for the comments; they are appreciated just as much as they were last year

I do both with the Rotala, I started off with 3 stems, if I remember that right. I cut off tops and replant them, and most of the time I leave the bottoms in as well. Only if they look really yucky so I dispose them.

Yeah, I know – the driftwood/rock height impression. I actually was at the LFS today and almost bought some wood, but in the end decided that it just doesn’t have enough height. Mediocre sized pieces tend to simply disappear in my plant jungle, as can be seen already with the many rocks in the tank.

I think one Anubias is very hard to fit into any scheme, a group would be much easier to add.

Usually the area above the Glosso is the only part that I vacuum a little. But I am doing a bad job with it as I place a filter over the hose (wife’s old panty hose leg ) to avoid sucking up fry. As such I don’t get a lot of suction. Maybe you are on to something as the area between the Glosso plants sure looks messy.

Happy New Year to you as well,

Ingo

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BTW, Like my new Avatar?

That is one of my female Gold Twin Bar (Comet) Platies in the 20G.

I thought why not have a new Avatar in the New Year.

Ingo

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I like the way the tank looks when half the water is removed during the water change.

I do the same thing. It helps too that the fish tend to school tightly at the front of the glass during this period too. I always take a cigarette break during this part of the water change so I can look for a few minutes. Makes you want to try a real long but very shallow tank.

The Uruquay and Cyperus will take some time to get height. I've had a Uruquaysenis a bit longer then you and I find the new leaves get gradually longer and longer. But even after having mine for a few months the current leaves max out at about 12". They're getting wider too. I reckon it'll probably take >6 months to get to full height.
The Cyperus is probably the same.

Don't know about the algae and the glosso. I noticed on my own that I have specks of green spot algae on the glass up to the height of the Glosso but not anywhere else.Nothing on the plants or substrate. Don't why that is, maybe because of the Glosso I don't clean that part of the glass and it gradually builds up. It's just hard to get to that part of the glass without disturbing the glosso. Old credit card job.

Definately I'd check the test kit. I had a Tetra NO3 kit that used to constantly read 20ppm of NO3 even though there was nothing there. It even used to read tap water at the about the same. Caused me problems. It was this more then anything put me off kits for life.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Bensaf,

Thanks for the info on the Sword and Cyperus. Also, I agree that trying to clean the glass all the way down where the Glosso grows is almost impossible as I would most certainly cause it to be uprooted. I will soon though go ahead and trim the Glosso off the glass section and use that chance for a nice cleaning.

I hear your (and tetratech’s) warning about the test kit accuracy loud and clear. But I also would like to remind you that my “fertilizer tests” during the last 2 weeks showed me that the kit basically works. I could see values going from high (greater than 20ppm) all the way down to nothing when I stopped adding KNO3. I don’t know if the level reading is accurate, but tendencies are clearly identifiable. If I just wouldn’t be so lazy I would go ahead and do tetratech’s PPS test. I vaguely remember reading up on this and I seem to have found some issues with it as well. Guess I will have to read it again .

Also, Dan brought up a good point in his log that people rarely show the surroundings of their tanks so I posted a picture in his log of mine (he asked for it). Here it is again (you didn’t ask, but anyway).

Ingo

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I don’t know if the level reading is accurate, but tendencies are clearly identifiable
For the most part I agree, but I my no3 kit it's almost impossible to tell the difference between 10ppm to 20ppm and 40ppm to 80ppm without a benchmark.

The full room shot is nice. I like that window right behind your tank, you could drain the tank right into the yard. Is that a couch in front of the tank? I would be hanking out there 24/7.

My Scapes

I know, I know tetratech, I am just a lazy bum

And yes, this is a couch , big enough to sleep on (which happened one night after an exhausting tank overhaul).

Here is another shot. The couch is visible in the front left. Then there is the coffee table to rest the feet on, and a chair to the right. The visible counter area is where I prepare the food and fertilizer, on the left of it, just off the picture, is a small TV hooked up to digital cable so I can watch 200 channels and listen to music while working on the tanks. Two of the counter cabinets are filled with tank related items like spare rocks, spare lights, Excel, Prime, and the like.

Ingo

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And here is our old cat resting on the above mentioned chair (and towels).

He would also be the reason why an open tank in our household is not a good idea .

Ingo

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Not much new to report,

Except maybe that I am switching to daily fert addition.

I add 1/4tsp KNO3, 1/16tsp Potassium Sulfate, and 10ml of TMG every day since Saturday after the water change.

I am wondering if it makes a difference if ferts are added in the morning or the evening.

Ingo

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I am wondering if it makes a difference if ferts are added in the morning or the evening
Are you experimenting just for the hell of it or are you trying to correct a problem (hair algae).

I still think you have less room for error because of your light. Not that it's ridiculously high, but it is very high given the tank size. Doesn't Amano only use like 1.5 to 2 wpg on his big tanks. As I said before you have double the light I have for the same depth. I do think you plants grow faster than mine, probably because of the higher light, but with that comes less wiggle room for things like fish waste, etc.

Interesting though that you get thread algae, nowher and I get GW and Bensaf get's nothing. If you could figure that out :%)

BTW - Nice kitty, looks like he/she is guarding the tank or waiting for the fish to get bigger.

Last edited by tetratech at 03-Jan-2006 08:49

My Scapes

Interesting though that you get thread algae, nowher and I get GW and Bensaf get's nothing. If you could figure that out

Interesting indeed. Sometimes I get the feeling that it all comes down to the fact that when he started his tank he stuffed it full of plants right off the bat, while we all waited for ours to grow in. We all dose pretty much the same way in a method that's shown to keep algae down, but I think maybe it was those first few critical days/ weeks where the tanks were settling in that made the difference. That's why I'm anxious to start a small tank (5-7gals... once Christmas gifts are paid off ) because it's easier to stuff a small tank than a large tank. If it turns out relatively algae free then maybe that'll provide a bit more insight into keeping tanks relatively algae free no matter what the size.

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Back in the saddle!

Oh, and I also forgot to add... I hate to beat a dead horse but...




NowherMan6 attached this image:


Last edited by NowherMan6 at 03-Jan-2006 08:58[/font]

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Back in the saddle!

Nowher,
Yes I agree with the plant mass at the start, not only does it add in fert suck up more importantly nh3 as well. Basically Bensaf started off with a much bigger biofilter than anyone else.

As far as the Driftwood I think LF gets the "Drift". For the time being if it was me I would just put the coffee table into the tank.

My Scapes

LF,

I have some 2x4's laying around you can have..........

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

You guys are too much

Yes, I get the drift, and I am even willing to pay a commission to anybody who finds me the right pieces of qualified driftwood.

The “new” ideas about the fertilizing routine are more of theoretical nature, although I wouldn’t mind if the remaining thread algae would disappear in the process. My thoughts are:

- Fertilizing daily creates a more balanced environment for nutrient availability. I just have not done that before because the Plantex was so hard to dissolve (as I probably added way too much anyways).
- What happens with nutrients at nighttime? Most likely nothing, I doubt that any organism (or filter media) would use them up while the lights are out. But if so then dosing in the morning would be an advantage.

The cat is an old man, he is about 14 years old and way too lazy to jump on the big tank. But a Nano, well that is another story .

Amano has on tanks of my size about 3wpg running for about 10 to 12 hours, only really big tanks have maybe 2 to 2.5 (at least that was what I calculated). Also, he never mentions any short bright light time which makes me believe his full lights are on for the full duration.

I guess this coming weekend I will create a major open space in the middle of the tank and sink the coffee table .

Ingo

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Just for the fun of it,

Here is a picture of the 2 Anubias Barteri that I have on the left side of my tank.

Count them, there are EIGHT flowers, some coming, some in full bloom, and some going

Ingo

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And as a reminder,

Soon it is going to be time for this guy (and his girl) to come home to the big tank

Ingo

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nowher and I get GW and Bensaf get's nothing.

Hmmm....I wouldn't quite say that. I get some, everyone does, just very very little so it's almost invisible.

Oh, dear I can hear the illusions shattering from here

The Ottos must be eating something, I don't feed 'em. I've got a Hillstream Loach for over a year that I've never even see swim much less eat. I get the occassional green spot on the glass if I let PO4 drop. I had a bad dose of Brown Algae when I changed over the tank recently. Silica Sand , to be expected.I just let it burn itself out.

With regard to the lighting. Amano is quite clear that he only runs the full lights for a few hours a day. The rest of the time all his tanks are basically low light.The exception being his very small tanks which he runs about 6 wpg.

Getting in on the horse flogging - try florida driftwood. I still think you should get a pile of so-so pieces and just build them up.

Also plants consume nutrients 24/7.They still work at night. Actually they do MOST of their growing at night - check your tank first thing in the morning and you'll see the spurts. It doesn't matter when you add the ferts as long as they are there, whenever is convenient.

Last edited by bensaf at 03-Jan-2006 21:19

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Thanks Bensaf for the input,

Yeah yeah, it is always nice to have 3 guys on your back telling you to get some driftwood

Believe me, I am on that website at least once a week.

And Bensaf and algae – I think he only says that to make us feel better

Bensaf – where does Amano state that he runs his tanks with full light only part of the time? I haven’t seen this reference yet. All he says in his books is the wattage and duration, no mention of staging (although I might be wrong as I read them maybe 2 months ago and I am an old man and might have forgotten what I read ).

Thanks again,

Ingo

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I get some, everyone does, just very very little so it's almost invisible
ah ha! I knew it That's why I never saw more pictures of your Bensaf does Amano Paradise Utopia Eden Aquatic Forest Setup :%)

Actually they do MOST of their growing at night - check your tank first thing in the morning and you'll see the spurts.
That is so true and I was going to post this question, when I wake up I swear my Stargrass looks like it grew 3 or 4 inches.

My Scapes

Actually they do MOST of their growing at night - check your tank first thing in the morning and you'll see the spurts.

Yeah, so true. I swear my green water looks so much more lush and juicy in the morning, it's incredible.


But seriously, considering how easy it is for algae to use nutrients of course there's going to be SOME, but I think we were referring to the problems, the outbreaks, the explosions - THAT'S what Bensaf never gets, the bad stuff! I still personally think it's because he started out right.

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Back in the saddle!

My problem is that I rarely see my tank in the mornings. When I leave the house it is dark in the basement and I don't want to turn on any lights so the fish get their well needed rest (with all that breeding going on).

I will have to check the night-growth out on the coming weekend .

Ingo

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That's why I never saw more pictures of your Bensaf does Amano Paradise Utopia Eden Aquatic Forest Setup

Ohhhh...sounds like a challenge


Guess I'll have to post a pic tomorrow

I've resisted meddling with this one, letting everything grow in. Still not there yet, maybe 85%. Then again my 85% is probably way better then somes 100% ........

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Bensaf,

I am always happy when you post a picture, not only when you are challenged to do so .

We need to see way more of your tanks so we can learn from the visual experience as well as your writing.

Ingo

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Ohhhh...sounds like a challenge
Whatever it takes

My Scapes

Guess I'll have to post a pic tomorrow

Well, today is tomorrow, isn't it?

no pic here

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Ok you asked for it and here it be....

The right side needs more time. The Uruquaysenis and Narrow Leaf Fern need to fill out more to balance thins.

The left side is a bit off as the Macrandra was over trimmed and needs a bit more height to fill the hole it left

bensaf attached this image:

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Another

bensaf attached this image:

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

This is actually my first time to try Glosso. It's working ok. One thing I like - if it hits an obstacle in it's path, it just climbs over it and continues on it's merry way. I've decided to let run rampant and see where it goes.

Here's some climbing over an Erect Moss obstacle.

bensaf attached this image:

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.