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But on more then one occasion you have pulled up every plant in the tank

Well, I always left one group (at least) in its position

No, but seriously: If I ever wanted to have driftwood in the tank than the first major overhaul was the only way to do it. I don't think you would believe that this could have been achieved by removing only one plant at a time. And the second major overhaul was needed to add more plant mass. And that is it, I haven't done more than these 2 overhauls (although I feel like I am doing them on a weekly basis).

Thanks for the advice on "making slow changes", I will try to keep that in mind for the future. There is one thing that makes following this advice rather costly though: Almost all plants for my tank are ordered over the web (not the best local resources) and if I add only one plant at a time then I will have to pay loads of shipping until I have a new assortment.

Maybe it's time to add some Wisteria from the 20G QT to my tank.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

Double dog dare you to join the wisteria club! The question is will you grow tall or lay low?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Too much changing and uprooting

LF, for what it's worth, I believe I'm in the same boat. My algae problems started after doing major overhauls, and they certainly seem to get worse after doing major overhauls... slowing down after several water changes etc. I'm right there with ya, lookin for the answer

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Back in the saddle!

You guys are going to make me quote one of my favorite movies again "small moves, ellie, small moves"

I think Bensaf is probably on to something with the "extreme makeover" planted tank edition. I'm also wondering if the substrate has anything to do with it.
Is the lava-rock based eco complete a better bio-filter than a gravel/laterite mix. Lava rock is used in filters as a bio media.

What I'm getting at is the ability of the tank to decompose waste making it unavailable to algae through plant suck up and bio-filteration.

My Scapes

Well it's more to do with stirring up mulm and NH4 from a mature substrate. Both are lovely algae treats

Plus the plants stall for a bit after a big move.

If you need to order lots of plants - stick them wherever there's space and then gradually move things/replace to the position you like.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Well it's more to do with stirring up mulm and NH4 from a mature substrate. Both are lovely algae treats

.

Yes, but does the amount of biofileration in the substrate neutralize this algae treat. The "honeymoon" phase of the hobby is long gone, why not pack the tank (And I mean pack, densily plant wisteria, hygro, etc and see if it makes a difference and slowly remove them "small moves" over time until you have the look you want.

By the way whatever happened to Chaos Maximus?

My Scapes

Tetra, that's actually what I've been doing, pretty much letting the wisteria take over for a while. I wasn't able to do WCs last week because of the gourami eggs (by the way, the plant mass that the eggs were laid in got moved around by the current the other day and the bubblenest was destroyed. sad sight, but at least it let me do a water change) but I plan on doing a couple this week to pick up the excess mulm stirred up in the make-overs. As I said, i think LF and I are suffering from the same thing, because I know my EI routine is basically the same as yours, with lower numbers for the smaller tank.

and BTW, I sent Chaos a PM about 2 weeks ago and never got anything back

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Back in the saddle!

I guess I will take out the pruning scissors then tonight and clip off some Wisteria from the 20G and add it to the big tank.

Also, my Alternanthera is getting too tall. I would assume that I simply can cut off the top and replant it (did that before) and leave the bottom part of the stem in to sprout again. What I don't know is if there is a rule (advice) as to the percentile to cut off, like 2/3 down the stem or something.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

guess I will take out the pruning scissors then tonight and clip off some Wisteria

Ya know things can get kinda boring if everyone has all this wisteria in their tanks.

If anyone wants to order L.I. Wisteria and/or Willow Branches I'm selling.

My Scapes

Ya know things can get kinda boring if everyone has all this wisteria in their tanks

Well, why do you think I don't have any in my tank right now. The last thing I want is a beautiful tank that simply would be a copy of yours, not because your tank is not very nice, but how boring would that be?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Just to chime in here: wisteria is a great stem plant becaus 1.) it fills up space and 2.) because although it grows fast, it doesn't grow so fast that it becomes weed-like, like hygro polysperma. if you have a better idea for a nutrient sucker then you let me know

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Back in the saddle!

Hey Ingo, I noticed no-one answered your question about how much to pinch off, 2/3rds is a bit too much, the general rule of thumb for pruning land plants is 1/3. Same with roots, take about 1/3 of the roots when you re-plant, no more or the plant goes into shock/can't get enough nutrients to survive.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Yes, but does the amount of biofileration in the substrate neutralize this algae treat

Well mulm is just decomposing organic matter. As it de-composes it produces NH4. The decomposition is a gradual process, so no matter how good the bio filtration there will always be some NH4 as the mulm will continue to produce as it rots and the bacteria will consume what it can. Kick all this up into the water column.......

But it's not just NH4 , it's other things too, decomposing organics will also be producing carbon etc, nut in the minute quantities that are useless for plants but handy for algae.

An oft overlooked aspect of EI is the need to keep tank and equipment clean. There's a reason for that. I know LF does keep his stuff clean but these overhauls are kicking up a lot of stuff.

I'd definately try a few months of relative stability (still ok to add plants ) and see how it works out.

As for the algae on the the crypts etc, I'm not sure what the cause is. I used to have that kind of stuff years back in small quantities. But this was before I had Co2 and decent light. Never seen it in a Co2 tank.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

These are some of the claims that carib-sea makes about eco complete.

. Contains live Heterotrophic bacteria to rapidly convert fish waste into natural food for your aquatic plants

.Unsurpassed MacroPorosity for healthy roots and bacterial efficiency.

As I said, when I remove rocks and plants I see very little mess. That sounds like a logical outcome that would result from the above claims. I believe this, plus the 5" of wisteria covering 60% of my tank is helping with algae control. Also a while back when I left my filter off all nite I had no negative side effects.



My Scapes

I'm sure it doesn't work much different from other subs. The important point is that the bad stuff is kept in the substrate and out of the water column. Heck Amano's powersand comes complete with Ammonia ! Should be algae/GW heaven right ? But once it's in the substrate and out of the water it's ok.

I guess it's another good reason to have herbivores like shrimp and snails. Clears up that rotting vegetation real quick.

I noticed in the past that has tanks got older and the mulm built up that algae was more difficult to keep at bay. Part of the reason I changed the substrate completely last year.

I find too that the smaller grains of substrate like the Eco or filter sand are easier to keep clean as the mulm tends to stay on top and is easy to suck out at water change. The bigger grains seems to trap more mulm in the bigger cracks and gaps in the gravel.

Notice LF has a bigger grain then us .......(that's NOT a cue to change the substrate, Ingo )

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

that's NOT a cue to change the substrate, Ingo

Ok, I will try to restrain myself

Yeah, vacuuming the mulm of the gravel was almost impossible in the past as there were plants everywhere. Since the latest overhaul (2 weeks back) I have the front open and vacuum lightly the top of the gravel (don't want to dig in too deep to NOT stirr up some gunk). Nevertheless, this open area sees fast growing green threads on the gravel.

luvmykrib - Thanks for the trimming advice

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

So back to my lighting theory.

How much for how long?

It seems that a lot of your plants now aren't really fast growers or real demanding of light. Such as your cyrpts and anubias.

Maybe do a low to mod light for most of the day with a kicker to high light for a couple hours in the afternoon would work better. That is if you are running high all the time. Isn't that what Ammato or whatever his name does?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Wings,

Since pretty much the setup day (with a few mishaps, but none of these in the last 2 months):

Lighting Period 11h - 10AM to 9PM
Lights: 2x96W = 1.54wpg for 11h
4x96W = 3.07wpg for 3h starting at 1PM, ending at 4PM

What do you think?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thats interesting...

Oh my 40G I am running 3.25 wpg all day... well about 12 hours a day. But I have different plants than you(the big three plants in my tank are hygro's and they are weeds).

Here is my resent thinking on things. (look out!)

Higher light = faster growth = more ferts being taken up.

So in my tank with high light for longer my plants are going to be driving full force all day and taking up more ferts in comparison to yours. I guess here is the punch line then: are you adding too much ferts for the lower light for most of the day + having a good hand full of plants that aren't sucking it up as fast(anubius and crypts?).

Just probably over thinking things... but its weird that I haven't had any major algae issues(yet..) Maybe you should email Tom and ask him whats up...

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Since were comparing lighting periods:

Lighting Period 11h - 9:30AM to 8:30PM
Lights: 1x96W = 1.33wpg (9:30AM to 11:30AM, 5:30PM to 8:30PM)
Lighting Period 7h - 11:30AM to 5:30PM
Lights: 2x96W = 2.67wpg for 6h


My Scapes

are you adding too much ferts for the lower light for most of the day + having a good hand full of plants that aren't sucking it up as fast(anubius and crypts?).

After many thousands of posts and over a year of posting can we get off the too much ferts and "not sucking up" thing
It doesn't work that way. Excess ferts don't cause algae. Not all being "sucked up" doesn't cause algae. The whole point of EI is to dose an excess to make sure nothing runs out. Doesn't matter if they aren't all sucked up, no harm.

Looking at too much fert and you are barking up the wrong tree and will get nowhere. You will see toxicity and dead fish long before you see any algae with excess ferts.

The problem is elsewhere.

Lighting seems fine.

To remove existing algae without over trimming try a 3 day blackout. Should kill most of it if not all. Plants won't mind a bit, they'll be fine.

After blackout continue with normal dosing, you should have a stable regime by now. Keep everything stable for a couple of months. No major changes, add plants whenever you like. See how that works out.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

I strongly agree with Bensaf. I've been saying for a long time (look back at my posts) this is a waste / mass thing. Bensaf is being more specific and I believe has good insight on the "churning up" of this waste into the water column. I've been dosing 3/4 tsp no3, 5ml flourish fe everyday on top of 10ml flourish and I have not seen any hair or thread algae or any other type.

Consistent routine and small moves seem to be a hugh plus in keeping things clean and stable. It's been two weeks now since I cleaned bba off my main rock and I don't see any new growth yet. It may be too soon, but I honestly think I'm beating the bba in my tank without using excel.



My Scapes

It's been two weeks now since I cleaned bba off my main rock and I don't see any new growth yet.

After Co2 the most important factor causing algae would be mulm - BBA can access the carbon from decomposing organics very very easily, far easier then plants. And we've already proved how important carbon is for BBA to flourish.

Tetra raises another valid point. He's adding what he's adding and not getting algae. So if high FE or high P causes algae why doesn't he have it, or me ?

If you suspect nutrients are the other folks adding the same amount having algae ? You can rule things out.

In LF's case we can rule out nutrients (or least excess nutrients). So what does that leave ......
Light? Well can you reduce that to just running the 1.5 watts for the entire period. See what that does, that will rule that out. But I don't that's an issue really , but it can be proved one way or the other easily.

Co2? Easy to prove - turn it up.

That just leaves stability. Well we know how to handle that, so try and see how that works. It's another thing that can be proved/ruled out.

After that there's not much left.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Blackout, haven't thought about that option in a long time, so long that I actually forgot that it can help killing existing algae. Guess I get too old to remember such things .

Anyway, here is a poll.
I received my diffusers yesterday. I am not sure about their quality though, they are made in China. Also, why is an 8 coil better than the short one? So, the poll is as follows - Next Step should be:

1) Add plants (Wisteria and such) and leave everything else the same
2) Change to the Diffuser (8 coil) and leave everything else the same
3) Change to the Diffuser and add plants and leave everything else the same
4) Don't change anything and do a 3 day blackout first, then add plants only
5) Don't change anything and do a 3 day blackout first, then change to the Diffuser only
6) Don't change anything and do a 3 day blackout first, then change to the Diffuser and add plants
7) Other, please explain

Which one of these options do you think I should attempt?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Oh,

I almost forgot. Here is a picture of the diffuser shipment. The larger ones state "Made in China" the smaller ones say nothing about where they have been produced, and acrually one of them seems to have a crack. Plus, I could swear that the small ones advertised had 3 coils while the ones delivered have none. I will have to check the site again.

Are they any worse than the ones you guys run?

Attached Image:

Diffuser Shipment

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I vote #6. Kill off the bad stuff. Then start preventing it with the better CO2 and plants.

BTW, the one on the left is the one that I have. Seems to be working ok but I am not overly impressed with the bubble size even after the bleach baths.

Edit:
Sorry about taking steps back....

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

OK,

That is one vote for lights-out first and then plants/diffuser and no vote for anything else .

If possible then I would like to know within the next 10 hours if there are more opinions as I would start the lights out tomorrow (Thursday) and end it three days later (Sunday). Whis way I will have the time to do a water change right away when the black-out ends.

And just to know: I guess I simply unplug lights and CO2. Do I throw a blanket over the tank to shade it from even room light?

Thanks in advance,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well, I don't know if I could pick a number but since algae won't grow in a blackout why not clean up the tank throughly before the blackout, this way when you turn on the lights the tank will already be pretty clean.

So I would suck all the gunk, trim plants, etc. and then lights out. Then I would have wisteria or other good plants at the ready. Plant densely, you have the lights to support that.

I would definitely use the diffusor. It's more efficient I believe than that big reactor, so unnecessary. The difference between your reactor and the diffusor is like the difference between an old b&W TV and a plasma.

BTW - While your tank is blacked out it will give you an opportunity to scape your 29G.

My Scapes

I vote for no light. Don't give the aglae anything to work with.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

i reckon you should give the tank a clean first and then do no 6.

ps i dont know if i made the 10 hr time limit but its only thurs morning here

OH TOLEEDY!

I've tried the big Boyu one. It works just fine. The bigger one is supposed to be for bigger tanks. The marketing says the longer shape keeps the co2 in contact with water longer. pile of crap to be honest. The small one work just as good IMO. I changed to a smaller one just to take up less space but keep the Boyu as my back-up in case I drop the small one or do something else stupid.

Why'd you get 4 BTW ? Are you going to split the Co2 line , run all 4 ? If running 2 try a mix of the big and small see if there's any difference or which you like best.

Don't forget to fill them with water. This you will find remarkably difficult Let them soak in a container of water for a few hours/days , they'll eventually fill.

For the blackout it should be complete, not even room lights so cover the tank or keep basement lights off. Switch off Co2 of course.

Personally I'd do the blackout then clean up, water change and add plants and diffusers immediately after , then regular dosing maintenance for a few weeks and see how it goes. Works ok then gradually play with your scape . Add plants whenever but removal of plants or movements of groups of plants should be steady and gradual.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Why'd you get 4

Cause LF is an ANIMAL!

My Scapes

Votes For: Leave it alone.

For what it's worth, (I know I'm not one of your trusted cabinet members, sitting on the fence between the light and dark side) I agree with everyone a few pages back. Too much tinkering. Let it settle into a groove for a few weeks(let Stella, obvious choice of name for your tank, get her proverbial groove back). Keep the ferts in there and the CO2 up, and wait it out. That's what I did, except I turned my CO2 down, which brings me to my other point - my home made external reactor can kick your diffusers butt. Try getting 40ppm of CO2 using less than 1 bubble per second with the diffuser. Besides, it makes for nice white noise when you have loud people in your apartment. Between the nice bubbling of my CO2 reactor, and the slurping sound of my overflow on the salt tank I have no trouble motivating myself to go number 1.

I finally believe in most of the EI teachings(MOST MOST!). This is hard for me to say....I've been against it for quite some time. I remember seeing bensaf's tank right when he first logged onto FP and muttering to myself and shaking my fist at my plants. His green thumb is only bested by his ability to turn a glass box into a beautiful underwater forest scene (my thumb on the otherhand, brown as it is, is equalled by my lack of vision). My first two attempts at EI were very unsuccessful though. The first time I blame completely on inconsistant CO2, the second I went too much by the books. Now I have my own tweaks and what not of the basic formula, but I can't argue with the recent proof in my tank. It looks pretty dang good. And the plants have color. My plants looked at least as bad as yours, LF, and I never scrubbed anything(except glass and plastic things), uprooted a single plant, or blacked out the tank. I just turned the photoperiod down(more wiggle room), put the ferts in, and let it get it's groove. I'd say it's taken a month and a half just keeping things normal for it to come around. I think you should try that as well. It might be too hard for you to leave it alone though.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

After many thousands of posts and over a year of posting can we get off the too much ferts and "not sucking up" thing
It doesn't work that way.

Do you think we'll ever get it?

Votes For: Drives Bensaf nuts before we get it

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Votes For: Drives Bensaf nuts before we get it

Oh Matty, they drove me nuts loooonnngggg ago. Many's the night I spent banging my head against the apartment wall 'cos it felt more productive then dealing with my "sons" (although I have a couple of daughters now )


Nice to see you pop back, when you gonna give up playing with those darn sea rocks and come back to the color and glory of the underwater forest ?

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Well, I was afraid that when I open my log this morning I will find a) no responses or b) varying suggestions. In good old fish/plant keeper fashion you followed path b) .

I guess the first step in the learning process (for the 100th time) is patience and as such I decided not to rush things. My tank will not turn into a monster if I wait one more week and discuss the topic a little more with you folks - if you don't mind.

Basically what I get is that I should add plants and switch to the diffuser. And most (except Matty) suggest a balck-out. Let me (us) think about it some more, but I guess in the meantime I should not add plants as they would potentially be exposed to the black-out before they can settle.

Why did I get 4 diffusers? That is easy to answer - because I can .

No, seriously, in no particular order:

- I pay shipping once
- I wasn't clear what the output difference between a large one and a small one was (like Bensaf, I also questioned why the coils would do anything)
- I want to keep the option open to split the line (discussed somewhere like 30 pages back) and use the same diffuser type on both ends
- I also played with the thought that I may use 2 different sizes on a split line
- If I don't split the line then I have the option to alternate the diffuser, meaning I don't have to change them during water change and putting in a clean one takes less than a minute
- Last but not least, like Bensaf I believe that having a backup cannot harm in case I drop one

Matty: thanks for the input . Leaving the tank alone was pretty much what I tried to do after the first overhaul, maybe not for long enough though. I couldn't wait any longer then as the threads where really kicking into gear and threatened to take over completely. I am worried that I am at a similar stage now. During your month and a half of letting things settle - did the algae increase, and if so by how much?

Dan: You sure made the 10 hour time limit . Thanks for the input, you should add your wisdom more often.

Ok, thanks again for all the input (to the regular participants in this log as well),

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

when you gonna give up playing with those darn sea rocks and come back to the color and glory of the underwater forest ?

Ahhh, I think I'm hooked, unfotunately. Check out this new coral I got(none of my plants come close to that color):

ooooh, aahhhhh

During your month and a half of letting things settle - did the algae increase, and if so by how much?

Some algae increased, like the green puffball type, and the BBA. I also had some green spaghetti type stuff, it looked like I accidentally dropped some algae(chaetomorpha or brillo pad) from my "sea rocks" into my planted tank. I've never seen that in a freshwater tank before(and I thought I'd seen ALL the algae). It was pretty easy to pull out, and I don't see it anymore.

The last week saw the decrease of those, with only the stubborn BBA still holding on in a few places. If I would just go in there and trim it out it would probably be gone forever. Might do that saturday on water change day.

Unfortunately (for your knowledge purposes) the thread algae disappeared really quick. Maybe in two weeks. I'm sure it was a lack of nitrates that caused them in my tank. Coulda been a lack of PO4 or anything else, the tank totally bottomed out, but I've never had a problem with that particular algae and I've always had nitrates, up until I traded my angels.

If I were you I'd turn the photoperiod down to 9 hours with 2 lights and 2 hours with 4 lights. Keep up with the dosing and water changes for a couple weeks. If there's no improvement in algae(the plants will probably suffer a little), I won't argue with the blackout. IMO though, it's not a cure to the problem. It's a quick fix, and the algae will come back. They've been around long enough to be able to survive that sort of thing. Especially for only 3 days.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Check out this new coral I got(none of my plants come close to that color):

Nah, looks like an infection I once had, a dose of penicillin cleared it right up

I have a friend here who owns the biggest marine aquarium shop in Indonesia (he's a westerner too) , tons of great stuff. Prices are unreal, you'll cry at how cheap things are and of course everything is caught locally so it's "fresh" as fresh can be almost the same as popping out for quick scuba and collecting your self.

BTW $1 = 9,000 Indonesian Rupiah
www.aquarium-laut.com

I've been tempted to give it a shot but don't have enough time.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Dang, I saw some stuff for 10usd that would be 5-6 times that much here. Not fair man. I think I'm going to move out there. I didn't happen to see any blasto's like mine though. They aren't too common, I've been waiting around for months for some like these.

Nah, looks like an infection I once had, a dose of penicillin cleared it right up

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

No other comment to Bensaf's infections

So, tomorrow during the water change I will exchange the reactor with the diffuser. I envision to place it rather low on the left glass panel, in the middle between back and front. Way up on that panel sits the spray bar. I think the bubbles should get caught in the current from that bar and be dispersed throughout the tank.

Sounds right?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Bensaf,

I am so going to have to use that one at work on the SW geeks!

LF,

I think you are on the right track. What are you thinking for the black out or no black out?


55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Wings,

Good that you bring up the blackout again, as we hopefully still have Matty's attention:

Matty - I take it that you don't think the blackout would do anything good at all. I understand what you mean when you say that algae is around for quite a while and will come back when the situation is right again. The question I have to you now is: Do you mean literally that the same algae is coming back or that new algae will be back because conditions haven't changed? My solemn reason for the blackout would be to get rid of existing algae as I cannot remove my hardscape without making a major mess again. Changing to another CO2 distribution method (diffuser) and upping my P are the counter measures taken to make the environment more hostile to new algae. Under these conditions, do you still think that a blackout would be useless and if so then why?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

What I mean is that under no light conditions you will kill algae, yes. This might help you get an edge on it. I've only heard a blackout work long term a couple times, and that was because the tank conditions had changed before the blackout in a way such as to discourage their growth permanently. In those cases, had they not used the blackout, I beleive patience would have served just fine, because conditions were growing harsh for the algae.

Just my opinion, but it's a quick fix, a band-aid, duct tape. There is no way to eliminate algae from your tank. There's some in mine(obviously). There's some in bensaf's tank. Amano has it, just like everyone else. It's waiting for the right conditions to spring up. The blackout will also have an effect on your plants. They won't like the dark either, but they won't die(hopefully). However, they will stunt a little, stop growing, and what do we know happens when plants stop growing? The door is wide open for algae, it's just about who recovers quicker. If the conditions are right for plants, you get a leg up on the algae. If the conditions are the same, the outcome is the same as before. If in fact, the conditions favor algae, a blackout can be bad news, and I've had a costomer experience that, didn't sound pretty.

The best thing about working at an LFS is that you can give people the facts and some will take it one way, and others will go a different route. You get to see what happens under a lot of different circumstances in a very short amount of time. It's like having 100 tanks to play with(but you don't have to pay for it). People that tend to make headway are the people that turn the lights down a notch(able to turn up later bit by bit), add more plant mass, more CO2, balanced nutrients(it's very hard to explain the thoughts behind EI in 5-10 minutes), and do water changes regularly.

I had a guy with a 55 tank and the 4 foot coralife fixture(I admit that I forget the wattage maybe 130?), no CO2 and dirty fish. He really wanted live plants so I pointed him to a bunch of types and told him the more plants you get the easier it will be, and to get a lot of fast growers. Against my wishes, he picked maybe 6 different plants, mostly slow growers. He went home and set the lights on for 12 hours. We all know what happened here. So he comes back and asks why it happened. Good guy. Most costomers throw fits and make children cry(yes, some lfs workers don't know everything, but the average costomer is far worse than any lfs worker who doesn't know the scientific name and max growth of every fish in the store). After explaining things a little I sent him home with 10 bunches of stem plants and some anacharis. When he got home he turned the lights down to 9 hrs. He thought the anacharis was the ugliest thing he'd ever seen. Now it's his favorite joke, something like it's growing out of the tank and eating the pets and different pet shop of horrors type stuff. Nowadays(2 months later) I ask him how his algae is doing and all he has to complain about is the anacharis. -The End

EDIT: Oh, and I'm not suggesting you go get a ton of anacharis, though it would probably have a good effect, it's just the plant mass reliable growth thing.

EDIT: And by the "they've been around long enough" I meant the billions of years of evolution thing(not in your tank). Algae and cockroaches are prepared for armageddon. We can't kill it, only maybe contain it. You know if people can't kill something, it's hardy.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Well Matty,

You for sure presented some very convincing and encouraging point

And I also understood what you meant with algae being around a long time (I already understood the first time you said it).

That is exactly the reason why I decided not to rush the situation with the blackout last Wednesday night. Input like yours is too valuable to come to late.

Thanks again,

Ingo

EDIT: Oh, and before I forget: this customer with the plant/algae issue, he thinks anacharis (egeria najas/densa) is the ugliest plant? Has he seen Hornwort?

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And I also understood what you meant with algae being around a long time (I already understood the first time you said it)

oops I misread your post, I thought you thought it mattered how long it had been in you tank....my mistake.

That is exactly the reason why I decided not to rush the situation with the blackout last Wednesday night. Input like yours is too valuable to come to late.

Well thanks, and I'm glad I checked in here when I did then. I just think there's a better way to get things done, as long as the plants are still healthy and growing, that's less risky and damaging. You can always try the blackout down the road if you can't get things fixed.

BTW is there any flow/filtration on the right side of your tank?

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

EDIT: Oh, and before I forget: this customer with the plant/algae issue, he thinks anacharis (egeria najas/densa) is the ugliest plant? Has he seen Hornwort?

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

BTW is there any flow/filtration on the right side of your tank?

Not currently.

Twice I used to have a powerhead on that side blowing water to the left. My assumption was that maybe this side is stale and that's why I have problems, but:

- It did never make a difference either way, even when the powerhead was humming for weeks
- I have at least as much algae on the left than the right
- I kind off like the idea (tell me if it is a bad one) that there are areas in the tank with less current as some fish may like to hang out without having to paddle the whole time. Interestingly, I have usually as many fish on the left than the right, except when they see me - then they all come to the left where I feed them.

Oh, off topic. In recent days I have noticed an increase in Espei active schooling, as in patrolling the tank as a gang. I attribute it to the fact that the younger ones are now old enough to be fully accepted by the seniors and that I have 30 fish less, aka some space to actually swim to where there are no other fish.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

wow i must say this tank has been threw so much and looks great.
NICE JOB LF!!
i do have to say that i cant wait till the dwarf cichlids get in there...hope u get some babies here soon!
i think maybe a small addition of some pink on the other side of the tank would be nice( by the anubias) or placing the rotala in the middle...in my opinion it would be more of an eye catcher that way.
is all the algae gone now besides the small spot you like? well LF im glad to see the tank is comming along(and cant wait to see what more comes to be)i saved the one picture of the before and after together as my background on my computer...you have inspired me to make my 29-gallon( yes much smaller) tank a beautiful display tank for some of the smaller rainbows and such...GET BACK SOON WANNA HERE MORE!!!

bratyboy2,

What a nice comment. You made me the biggest compliment I can get, being an inspiration to others is a major accomplishment for me. And if your tank looks prettier in the end than mine then I will have to kill you .

Actually, I will add some pink (purple) to the left of the Anubias group today as I will have to trim the Alternanthera on the way right and the tops go to the left to grow out.

You mention that I should put the Rotala in the middle. I don't think I have Rotala in my tank since quite a while, which plant do you mean?

Sadly, the algae is not gone, read through the last maybe 30 entries (since the last weekly update) to get all the details. But I am working on it .

Thank you so much again,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I just finished my weely water change, pictures of it will be posted tomorrow as I have to wait to take them until all the bubbles are gone.

I have overall more discouraging news with regards to the algae. When I looked closely through the tank to detect dead leaves etc., I discovered that the driftwood is beginning to be covered with BBA, loads of small gray bushels in particular on the upper half of the wood. This is so demotivating.

I also added the glass diffuser, it took me about half an hour until I finaly had all the air out, there was only a tiny bit left. I started it up after the water change and had to move it a few times until it was positioned that most bubbles will be caught in the current of the spray bar. Now, in this position it is a little angled, the top is more towards the left glass panel than the bottom. Is that a problem? Also, I noticed that now I have gas and not water in the upper region of it, down to the uppermost coil. Is that a problem? And, bubbles do not come out from the entire ceramic plate but only from part of it. Again, is that a problem?

Cheers, your frustrated Ingo

Attached Image:

Diffuser in action

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Hey LF

BBA on wood:
I have/had that for a long time now, but in your case if the wood isn't removable (practical) than you'll have to wait to you beat it back. I would just stay on course and ignore it. Keep co2 way up and plant densly. Keep feeding minimal, the fish will be fine. Mine has definitely slowed or stopped since I don't see new bba growth on my rocks

Glass Diffusor:
It's normal when you first start to use it to only have bubbles coming thru from part of it. As it's (primeed) the whole thing should work.

My Scapes

I have been running my GD for a few weeks now and it is still only coming from part of it.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Thanks you two for the input on the glass diffuser and tetratech also for the info on the BBA. I tried to get a picture of it but there were still too many bubbles (may have been CO2 bubbles from the diffuser already) to get a clear shot of it.

Weekly Tank Update - Week 28

This week was more about discussions of a potential black-out then it was about tank changes. Not much had happened, except that I observed the thread algae is still multiplying and to top it off yesterday's discovery of large numbers of tiny BBA bushels on the driftwood.

Certain plants in the tank are still growing strong, as usual leading the way are the Star Grass (grew back to the top) and the Pearl Grass. Maybe I should get more plants that have the word "Grass" in their common name as they seem to be doing excellent in my tank . I also observe new leaves on the Anubias Nana and Barteri group, it seems they are doing ok now after I treated them so badly during my last major overhaul (out of the water for hours).

I trimmed two stems of the Alternanthera and planted them on the left, also two small bushels of Wisteria have been added from the 20G (couldn't get more out, growth in that tank is really slow). The mother crypts that have been added a week and a half ago still show signs of melting, in particular the red ones.

The glass diffuser was also added to replace the reactor. I am not sure, but last evening, about 4 hours after the change, the top half of the tank was full of bubbles. This could still be from the water change, although I have never observed this previously. Today, I will have to keep an eye open for the ph. I also upped my dosage of Baking Soda, without measuring I would say that it should be around 4 to 5 by now, I will check later. Also, I upped the dosage of Equilibrium to about 1.5tsp, I figured it cannot harm, right?

On to the pictures. First I will show 4 full tank shots in 3 week gaps since I changed the tank to contain the driftwood. In addition, I only have 2 detail shots to show, I didn't feel like bothering you with more details on algae-covered plants, you have seen enough of these already.

So, here is the tank 9 weeks ago right after the driftwood had been added:

Attached Image:

Tank 9 Weeks Ago

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3 Weeks later, all plants seemed (from the distance) to be still going strong. But when closer observed, the Macandra started to stall, the Retrospiralis - previously split from one plant plug into multiple - started to have dying leaves and thread algae, and the Anubias on the right became covered in threads.

Also, more and more threads were observed on the other surfaces, like glass, gravel, and wood:

Attached Image:

Tank 6 Weeks Ago

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Another 3 weeks later, the tank had seem its next major overhaul. This was an attempt to reduce the by now rampant growth of the thread algae and to reduce the number of dying plants, in particular the Retrospirals but also most very tall Narrow Leaf Saggitarias.

In this stage the tank had probably the lowest plant mass since maybe week 2 after setup. Guess it makes sense that algae started to have a field day.

Attached Image:

Tank 3 Weeks Ago

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Here is the tank now from last night, after the water change and general maintenance.

I like the way the trimmed tops of the Alternanthera create a color pocket on the left side. Would be nice if they settle and I could create a whole group of them over there (not too tall though). The Pearl Grass also could have used a trimming, but I decided to let it grow to maintain more plant mass. These days, the tank is less about beauty then it is about not losing it completely.

Attached Image:

Tank Now

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Now on to the two close-ups.

Nothing special really. The first one shows one of the two small Wisteria bushels that have been added. You can see the bubbles on the Pearl Grass next to it and on the Wisteria itself. I don't know if they are still from the water change or already the result of the switch to the diffuser:

Attached Image:

Tiny Wisteria

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The last picture for now shows the left 4th of the tank. Please observe how high up I have placed the diffuser. I initially had it lower but then the bubbles would hit the spray bar more on its back and go to the surface directly, without being washed through the tank. Also, you can see the the diffuser's top is closer to the left than the bottom (the left edge of the picture is the glass). I had to make sure that the plate area is not too close to the glass, for the same reasons as above. BTW, the holders for the diffuser are normal air line sucktion cups and don't really seem to fit the diameter of the glass tube. They barely can reach half around the tube.

In the front of the tank you can see the Pearl Grass, followed by the new Wisteria, and to the right the thread algae covered crypts. The Ludwigia in the back is becoming stronger, it also was grown from small clippings of the 20G. In the midground is a red Wendtii and the tops from the Alternanthera:

Attached Image:

Left Tank with Diffuser

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Tanks looking good Algae is certainly not obvious from the pics.

What you are seeing with the diffuser is all normal. You just running one ? Checked Co2 yet ? I'd be interested in how one of them does in such a big tank ! Maybe check the far side of t5ank too to make sure it's spreading out nicely.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

bensaf,

Thanks for the input. Yeah, maybe I should specialize in taking pictures from far away .

I haven't measured anything yet, but I will do within the next 30 min. The lights in the tank went on about 30 min ago and I already seem to observe (or maybe I have noticed it before) that the Rainbows are huddling together, without moving much around. The far side of the tank appears to actually get more bubbles then the side on which the diffuser sits. The spray bar current blows them all over to the other side where there is little current.

Makes me quite nervous, this diffuser thing. I would almost assume that I will have to reduce the bubble rate, which now is still almost a solid stream.

Thanks again,

Ingo

EDIT: Ah - and congrats on the 10 Gold Starts, Bensaf /:'

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OK,

Just measured the tank parameters and I came up with results that seem a little off:

KH - maybe 4.5 dH - seems about right given that I added more Baking Soda than usual
ph - 7 - that is the odd one as 7 is my tab ph. Could it be that my water change from yesterday had raised the ph although the reactor and later the diffuser were humming all day? I will check again in a while just to make sure I got the right reading.

Here is a shot of the way right side of the tank, top area. All the white dots are CO2 bubbles:

Attached Image:

CO2 on the right

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LF,
I agree, I like the pocket of color you have on the left I personally would like to see the red plant on the right moved inward somewhat. don't make the corners any higher.

Whenever you can, trim! Doesn't trimming intiate even more growth (one step back, two step forward) that will get the plants sucking up more.

By the evening my entire water surface is a pretty much solid mass of tiny bubbles. It made me nervous at first but I see no effect on the fish. Remember co2 doesn't displace o2.


My Scapes

tetratech,

Thanks for the confirmation on the diffuser stuff, I am glad that I am not the only worried one when setting up the bubble machine. About moving the right hand Alternanthera more to the middle - maybe some day, but for now things are only being moved to add new plants for extra suckage of Nutrients .

I just measured the ph again, 4 hours later than the last time. It is now at about 6.8 with a slight tendency to less. Now the main lights in the tank will come on. Babies, let's grow

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

So, another 4 hours later than the last test, I did another two - one on each side of the tank. Both panned out with a ph of about 6.6 maybe a little less.

This should give me about 33ppm of CO2, that would be pretty much where I would like it to be. If I remember then I will test one more time around 9, just before lights out.

Ingo

EDIT: Oh, and I do not see any bubbles on the plants.

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,
It is really tricky getting the right setting with your CO2. When I first got my diffuser I had tons of bubbles too! Since then I have turned it down a bit because I was getting my ppm up to around 50 or so. Now I don't seem to have the bubble thing going on.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Thanks Wings,

Last night I checked my ph again and it seemed to have stabilized at around 6.6, meaning I still had a CO2 saturation of around 33ppm. This is more than I had before because, albeit I frequently had this ph, I upped the KH by about 1dH.

The thing that puzzles me about these observations is that I cannot explain why my ph was 7 in the morning. I had CO2 running the day before, except for the maybe 1.5 hours during maintenance. Given that 7 is my tab value, I would assume that my ph at lights out must have been lower than that. Now, having had 7 in the morning, wouldn't that mean that my plants haven't produced any CO2 all night long? Or did they and the surface agitation from the spray bar made it all evaporate? Very confusing

I also sat back last night and observed the fish for a while, just to make sure they are ok. Well, all seems fine to me, although they all stayed mostly in the lower parts of the tank. It is always nice to see the different characters of my fishies, the Pearls slowly parading, the Rainbows playing chase with each other and then regrouping with the Pearls for a while to rest, the Espei forming a school of about 15 to 20, going from left to right (or the other way), finding there more of their kind and breaking out of school mode, and the Otos - well they are eating .

I cannot count how many Espei are in there, but for sure still enough that the there is basically not one area of the tank where there are none. Maybe I should think about trading in another 20 or so.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Makes me quite nervous, this diffuser thing. I would almost assume that I will have to reduce the bubble rate, which now is still almost a solid stream.

Well doesn't everything worry you Ingo ?

Actually you ,ay have to use less gas I certainly found the diffusers so efficient I had to drop the bubble rate a little.
Measuring pH just before lights on is the worst time to test. Just after lights on at best.
Even at over 30ppm once the gas is switched off the Co2 in the tank will evaporate in a few hours going into equilibrium with the athmosphere. The plants don't produce that Co2 at night ! So testing pH to calculate Co2 content is worthless before lights on, yes the tank water would be at almost tap level.
If you are hitting 30ppm at lights off after a day of the plants using the Co2 then you know you are good.

Good to see the diffusers work on even such a large tank.

EDIT: Ah - and congrats on the 10 Gold Starts, Bensaf

Thanks . only took 2 years At least I won't have to do that darn quiz again

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

At least I won't have to do that darn quiz again

That's how I feel as well. Now let's see when tetratech reveals his "real" star count. I bet you not before he has 10 as well.

About the ph test. The first one yesterday in the morning was right after lights on (maybe 20 min into the lighting period).

Interesting, so you say the CO2 that is produced by plants would not read as a measurable ph influence? Can you explain that a little more?

And about the worrying: You know me so well . I tjust makes my day when I have something to worry about. And my tank as never failed me so far.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I tjust makes my day when I have something to worry about. And my tank as never failed me so far.

I think Ingo secretly sabotages his own tank, so he has something to worry about.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Yeah, I sabotage my tank (and my spelling ) on purpose, you found me out, Matty .

I wish you were right. The thought that some people may not take my concerns serious anymore (may I say cry wolf) has for sure crossed my mind.

But bear with me, I am really trying to have an algae and problem free tank, just like the rest of you.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hey Ingo

Your tank is looking great. I can see that I am not the only worry wort though

Cheers
TW

Interesting, so you say the CO2 that is produced by plants would not read as a measurable ph influence? Can you explain that a little more?

They just don't produce enough Co2 to make a noticable difference. Heck if they did we wouldn't need these fancy gas tanks, every aquarium with plants would have 30ppm of Co2 in the morning !

Co2 dissipates pretty quickly. Turn off your gas and see how quickly the pH goes back to tap value. Even at 30ppm it only takes a ciuple of hours to go back to 2ppm. That's why we have to keep it flowing during the lighting period.

On your non Co2 planted tanks - does the ph drop by 1 full point during the night? No, right ? Maybe by 0.1 or 0.2 this pretty much teels you how much co2 the plants produce at night. About 2-3ppm. Also shows you how pointless the "should I run my co2 at night" "should I run an airstone at night"discussions are !!!

Long story short, testing pH before gas/lights on is fruitless if your purpose is to check Co2. You need to wait a few hours for the gas to kick in, just before lights out is the ideal time to test.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Thanks Robyn for letting me know that I am not the only one of my kind here . I was even worried about you running this marathon. How did that go?

Thanks Bensaf for the info on the CO2 at night. I would assume that the ph swing at night in natural waters depends, besides the plant mass, on the water flow, meaning still waters should have a larger swing (down) than flowing water, right? This also made me realize that we, in out tanks, actually turn the natural ph swing upside-down. While in nature the ph should be higher during the day, it is the time when we lower it.

Different topic:

Last evening I went to the LFS and got lucky and purchased 6 small stems of Wisteria, plus one other plant that I would like you to help me on a positive ID. I currently just "threw" them in the tank, it was late, and will properly plant them tonight. I most likely will take out my Red Rubin Sword and put them in its place. That plant received a heavy trimming (during my masive make-over) because so many older leaves where full of threads. Also, it went through a quick bleach dip at the same time. Now, most leaves are really thin and algae infested yet again. Only the new growth is ok, and it takes up a lot of real estate that I need more now for fast growers.

Anyway, here is a shot of 4 parked Wisteria stems

Attached Image:

Parked Wister I

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And here are the other 2. I actually think that they don't look all that bad in this spot. But I know that soon they would grow so big that you cannot see the other plants behind it anymore (and shading would set in as well).

Attached Image:

Parked Wister II

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Last but not least, here is a shot of the plant that I mentioned earlier.

I bought two stems that were labeled "Narrow leaf Hygro". I believe the plant is Hygrophila augustifolia, is that correct? Either way, what do you know about it? I would assume it is a fast grower, it is a hygro. How do you replant/trim this plant? Do you know of any problems with it?

Thanks in advance,

Ingo

EDIT: Oh - and don't forget to admire the Espei

Attached Image:

Hygrophila augustifolia ???

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I bought two stems that were labeled "Narrow leaf Hygro". I believe the plant is Hygrophila augustifolia, is that correct? Either way, what do you know about it? I would assume it is a fast grower, it is a hygro. How do you replant/trim this plant? Do you know of any problems with it?

You should pay more attention to my pics

Yes it's Augustifolia. Been in every tank I've ever had. Probably my most favorite plant. Nothing but good things to say about it.

It's a very easy very fast grower and a stunningly beautiful plant. Give it lots of room !The leaves can get to almost a foot long.

One thing I really love about it - it branches so easily. It will produce 2 new branches at almost every single internode, so it becomes very very bushy quickly. Very thick almost woody stems.

It grows so fast, branches so easily that propogation is adoddle. You could literally have enough to fill the entire tank in a couple of months. You'll be throwing away buckets of the stuff.

Give it a location it deserves. It appreaciates a bit of flow so the leaves can sway outwards and catch the light. Not overyly important in terms of growth but brings out the best in looks. The leaves are a lovely deep green with a bright silver underside.

Best used to really fill out a corner section or as big solitary display. It's a magnificent plant and needs to be allowed to shine.

Just to remind you , mine is filling out the entire left corner in the pic and this was just after atrim ! Started out with one little stem. I think it was pretty much the first plant I ever bought years ago and there it is still going strong, will survive anything!!!

Great indicator for Nitrate or potassium. The lower leaves never drop off unless nitrate is low, also if potassium is low it will be the first to show holes in the old leaves.




Attached Image:

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

You should pay more attention to my pics

But in my defense, I have to say that you did not give yours a prominent spot, so it wasn't easy to detect. Also, it is not that easy to remember the name of the about 50 plant species that you collected just in that one tank .

Thanks Bensaf , I guess I made a good purchase then. I like the way ot looks as well and will put it in the spot where the Red Rubin is right now (as I don't want to uproot too many plants for this latest addition. Also in that area will be the new Wisteria stems. I hope it is not too crowded there. We will know more about it tonight - in any case, there is no way that I will make these additions another major replant event, they will have to fit somewhere convenient.

Ingo

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Ok you're forgiven.

It should work well in that spot. It contrasts pretty well with Wisteria as you can see above.

On the trimming - you can do it either way. It'll branch out no matter what you do.

At this stage I usually pull up and trim the bottom. It rpoduces really thick white roots at the bottom section of the stem above the gravel which can get messy. Never seen a plant produce so may roots so quickly. Also I'll usually have a few nice sized branches at the bottom (there will be branches all over - but obviously the lower ones will be the oldest and therefore the biggest/strongest)that I can use elsewhere.

Pearls like crazy too.

I think you'll like this one.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Thanks Bensaf

I didn't do the small replant last night, mostly for two reasons:

a) I want to do it when I have the chance to vacuum that area as well (avoid major mulm mess), so just before the next water change fits better
b) I was simply to lazy

So, Saturday it is

Ingo

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Ok, 2 days have gone passed since I added the Hygrophila augustifolia to my tank (in temp spot) and I notice the first changes. On stem has lost the lowest leaves (1 section = 2 leaves) completely while the other has withering (disintegrating) leaves beginning at the tips (also only the lowest section).

Can this be already a sign of lack of Nitrates in my tank? I would more likely assume that this is damage still done from being in the LFS tank and the transport in general. What do you think?

Another thing that happened to me in the past, and that I feel has never been completely resolved, was the complete elimination of Duckweed in my tank. I still don't understand how that could have happened. I get the low nutrient part (as I may have reduced my P too much, but never to 0), but doesn't this plant thrive in almost all conditions while most other plants would have long died? Do you have any idea?

Ingo

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I doubt, even if your tank was low that you see anything so quickly. More then likely were suffering in the shop anyway. It should perk up just watch for new growth.

Duckweed I've never had and know very little about it, but yeah I heard it was practically indestructible.

This happened while you were away, correct ? Here's astrange theory, whoever was looking after the tank thought they were dropped leaves and scooped them out thinking they were doing you a favor.

I don't think nutrients would get so low as to kill the duckweed but not show problems on the other plants.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Nah Bensaf,

It did not happen while I was away. I used to frequently thin out the amount of Duckweed that I have in the tank, you know - the shading and such. After I thinned it out one time, and I removed quite a bit and left only a small group (hard to catch these buggers in such a large tank with the current and such), it never started to re-populate. It simplygot less and less and within about two to three weeks dwindled to nothing.

Sure did I have problems at the same time, this started shortly after my algae problems broke out (thread), which started in turn after I added the new driftwood and messed with the tank like a madman in the process.

I am beginning to wonder if certain levels of the water column contain different "mixtures" of stuff. Like could it be that my messing around (or even the driftwood) had poisoned the surface to a point that the plants would die?

Oh, on the other hand: I never saw the leaves getting yellow or something, they just dissapeared. Can it be that Espei, Rainbows, and Pearls eat this stuff and I had reduced the amount to so little that it couldn't reproduce faster than the fishies ate it? You know what, that sounds almost reasonable.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Maybe your oto's thought it was tasty one day so the stoped eating your algae and starting eating the duck weed...... Just messing around....

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Being a little bored, I decided to add a few pictures just for the fun of it.

Number one is of male Espei. I know you have seen pictures like this before, but they have a habit of zooming into focus just at the right time:

Attached Image:

Male Espei

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And if one picture of an Espei is not enough, how about a picture with, well you count them

Here is the majority of the Espei tribe in one shot:

Attached Image:

Espei School

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Good shot LF. Not only did you get him in focus, you got him without a grumpy expression on his face - which is a rarity that any rasbora owner will attest to.

EDIT: Just a guess here, I have bad computer eyes, but around 55 or so?

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Back in the saddle!

Now on to non-moving entities

This plant has proven very hardy, is only a little influenced by the algae, has grown in shade and light, doesn't invade the rest of the tank, it is just there.

Isoetes Lacustris

I can really recommend it

Attached Image:

Isoetes Lacustris

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NowherMan6

Well, I haven't counted them yet, I was hoping that Wings will do this for me

But I have one more photo.

It shows the Star Grass group in a close-up. This plant grows so fast that I will have to replant ever other week. But it is very nice.

Attached Image:

Star Grass - Heteranthera zosterifolia

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I just wanted to say that this is one of the most beautiful tanks tanks I have ever seen. That school of rasboras is very impressive. Keep up the spectacular work on this tank.

jbe0404,

Wow, I am flattered, thank you so much.

But if you find this tank beautitiful then maybe you should look at tetratech's 72G and bensaf's tank pictures (spread out, one is even in my log on page 76 - I hope you didn't think that was my tank ).

I will still have to go a long way before I am happy with my tank, but keep on checking in and let me know what you think.

Thanks again,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I will count them for a doller a fish. Deal? Ok Great! 49 of them... thats $49! Thanks!

Great pictures too! Love the one of the school! Very nice!





55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Great pictures Ingo. I love that big school of Espei. Makes me want to run out straight away & buy another 10 of their cousins (rasboras) for my tank. Lucky it's Easter Sunday & the shops are shut, or that's what I'd be doing right now.

Dumb question, I know. But, how do I tell the difference between a male & a female rasbora. I've figured it out on my platys & guppys, but not my rasboras or my rams. I hope I have some of both & they breed.

Cheers
TW

Wings - Thanks, this means that you owe me only $201 now, as the fee for the entertainment in my monster log is $250

Robyn - Thanks for the compliments. To answer your gender questions (not dumb at all, BTW). Somewhere in tetratech's log are great pictures of a male and a female Bolivian Ram. I think the female get the pinkish belly when she is in breeding mode. Sexing adult (and late juvenile) Espei is rather easy as the males are rather red than orange. Otherwise, the general body shape of females is rounder than males, which are a little more streamlined.

On to the usual Sunday Topic:

Weekly Tank Update - Week 29

Not too much has happended this week, I purchased a few stems of Wisteria and 2 stems of Hygrophila augustifolia, mostly for the purpose to increase the plant mass with fast growers. The amount of algae had not declined.

Before I even started my water change this weekend I stood in front of my tank for at least 20 min because I couldn't figure out where to start. The goal was to incorporate these new plants without messing up the whole tank yet again. In addition, the really fast growing Star Grass needed a bottom trimming, in itself a major act because the whole group has to come out first.

Well, somehow I did it, and I don't think it was too bad. I removed the Red Rubin sword (sorry) as it was one of the algae magnets. Also, almost all Cyperus Helferis had to go, my 10 min bleach bath a few weeks back left them rather sick and they were re-invested in no time (or the leaves died and melted into the water column). That was a bummer as it took me a while to get this species.

On to some pictures. As I have a few details to show, full shots will only compare last week to this week. Here is the tank last weekend:

Attached Image:

Last Week

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And here is the tank now this weekend after the water change and all the other things.

The Star Grass group has been expanded to the right to take the space created by the removed Helferi. The Hygrophila augustifolia is in the spot previously occupied by the Red Rubin (and one stem to the right of it. The Wisteria stems have been spread out in the remaining gaps, I know that this is maybe not the prettiest solution, but I hope it will be efficient.

Attached Image:

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Now we go on to some detail pictures. The first segment is committed to fish, the second to plants.

Here is a close-up of a male Rainbow. I know the quality is not the best, but they showed their nice colors more than usual. I guess this water change must have been special.

Attached Image:

Male Dwarf Rainbow

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The next two pictures demonstrate how peaceful my tank is. It is not uncommon for the various species to hang out together. This is a good thing as there wouldn't be too much space for a species to be on their own as the Espei are everywhere .

Here is the Rainbow joining the Espei:

Attached Image:

Rainbow and Espei

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The same counts for the Pearls as well. Although they prefer the Rainbows over the Espei as tank buddies.

Here is the male Pearl showing the rest of the group who is the boss in the tank. It will be interesting to see how these dynamics change when the Apistos are introduced.

Attached Image:

The Boss

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On to the plants. Actually, the first picture is about algae. I was finally able to get a good shot of the BBA on the driftwood. This photo sums up all my problems. The center gives you a nice few of the thread algae and the rest of the branches are covered in small bushels of BBA. Interestingly, it seems that in particular the regions of the driftwood that are exposed during the water change are covered by it. It may be a coincidence though, but I had 2 or 3 small bushels of them on the tip of my rock in "Rock Valley" which also was exposed during water changes.

Not wanting togo through another week long Excel round with the tank, I dripped some Excel on the branches during low tide (water change). I doubt that it will help, but it was worth a try.

Attached Image:

My Friends - The Algae

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Here is a picture of the left side of the tank. A few of the Ludwigia stems needed some trimming as well. I replanted the tops where their was an opening.

Now I have about 10 plant species in this section, probably too many but I am not willing to concern myself with too many style issues as the priorities have shifted from style to algae war.

Attached Image:

Left side

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Here is a close-up of the new right side. Yeah, I know that it looks a little like a junge again, but we need the nutrient suckers. Also, the Alternanthera in the back corner will grow taller again and become more visible. I am very courious how the Hygrophila augustifolia will develop in this spot, maybe I will have to move it further into the back at some point.

Attached Image:

Right Side

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In case I haven't mentioned it before, I find the Amano Pearl Grass to be very versatile. It is one of the two plants that do really well in my tank (the other being Star Grass). You can let it grow tall, trim it shorter, replant the tops, remove the whole "bush" and trim the bottoms off.

I use the pant mostly as a filler, small pockets here and there. But in the left and right side I use them as larger groups. I would assume that they serve as fry hideouts as well.

Attached Image:

Amano Pearl Grass

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Here is the last shot for now, the new middle section.

As you can see, the Star Grass group has been expanded to the right, behind the Wendtii and various Anubias types.

The other change to the Star Grass group is that I didn't make it as deep as it used to be. The parts between the branches have been filled with some Wisteria.

Never mind the current height differences within the Star Grass group as I had to use the plants that where available to me. I would assume that in no later than 2 weeks it all is going to be grown in.

Thanks for looking,

Ingo

Attached Image:

The Star Grass - Middle Tank Group

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Happy Easter....if you in fact celebrate it. If not, good day to ya.

Interestingly, it seems that in particular the regions of the driftwood that are exposed during the water change are covered by it. It may be a coincidence though,

Yep coicidence that the peices of driftwood closest to the light are also exposed to the air during a water change...

I found that in my tank any surfaces that were not covered with plants got bba(along with some slow growing plants). My heater, the end of the driftwood, the filter intake and output all got it. The filter intake got it the worst, and just so happened to be exposed during water changes. That means nothing except for the fact that it was closest to the light.

I bet you haven't turned the light cycle down a bit yet. I found this really worked for me in conjunction with making sure that nutrients are really there in the amounts you want them to be. In my case I used reliable test kits to give me a good idea, though people on the light side seem not to trust them. I have since turned the lights back up without sign of algae. I bet if I turned it all the way back up all at once I would have had trouble though. I think that's part of where my problems originated, from when I changed lights. It never is just one easy thing is it?

Oh, and when was the last time you changed the bulbs on your fixture? I ask this cause we all know on the darkside that compact flourescent bulbs last about 6-8 months of solid use before they shift spectrum(light usable by algae increases, light usable by plants decreases). The bulbs you keep on the majority of the day will need to be switched more frequently than the "noon time high light" bulbs. I dunno if I already brought this up though. I might have. Sorry if I did, but this threads too big to go back and check.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Matty,

Thanks for your thoughts on the relationship between BBA and air-exposed areas in the tank.

And yes, you are right, I haven't changed my light cycle a bit. The only reason to shorten the cycle would be if my algae profits from the time available when the plants are already tired of uptake. This though should not change over time, meaning that if this is how it works once then this is how it should work again the next time around (aka when you expand the period after shortening it first), except if other conditions in the tank have changed as well. As you may know, right now I have the lights on for 11h and in the middle with double light for 3h.

Now, here is a topic where I am way not with you. PCs and 6-8 months until they shift the color range? I seriously doubt that. That was not what my research showed when I investigated lights for the planted tank way back last August. Regular flourescent - yeah, that I have heard, but PCs seem to stay rather stable until they burn out which is not earlier than one year. Can this be different on the dark side because you guys use such high K ranges (20,000 - right? ) or actinic light?

Anyway, thanks for the input Matty, it is as always very appreciated

And Happy Easter to you too

Attached Image:

Happy Easter to All FPlers

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

Isn't it true that your other tank has no algae. Why not break it down. I mean the differences between that tank and your 125 and see if you could hit on something.



My Scapes

the relationship between BBA and air-exposed areas in the tank.

It's because they are the parts closest to the light, simple as that.

Difference between this and other tank? Well Co2 is going to be the biggest difference. What does Co2 do to a tank ?
Drives up nutrient demand explosively. So one tank with low nutrient demand has no algae, one tank with high nutrient demand has algae.

What does that tell you ?

The fact that LF was adding far less Equilibrium then he should have been for a long time is worrying. With such a low GH there would be problems. Little to no Mg and Calcium. These 2 would directly involve growth. Would certainly explain the stunting on the Reineckii but I'm surprised there wasn't more evidence of stunting on others. Depends on the plant species. Some seem to care squat if the Ca and Mg is low and keep on going, others, like the Reineckii stunt and produce ugly little curled leaves that look like they were burned, swaords and grasy plants just tend to stop growing or slow down dramatically. Don't know if any of these syptoms are familiar to LF ?

Anyway with good nutrients going in it should just be a waiting game - trim off the existing algae as new replacement growth comes in.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Yeah, you can get away with 12 months, but PC bulbs definitely do not hold their spectrum until they burn out(which used for 12ish hrs/day would/should be near 2 years). Sometimes bulbs will only hold their spectrum 3 months, sometimes 10. The average seems to be around 6-8, after which time they will lose/have lost about 40% of their efficacy. I've never been able to read information on spectrum and intensity given by bulb manufacturers (remember, the people who make them, not sell them), but instead must rely on heresay. So who knows what you hear is right. The sellers of the bulbs, coralife and even retailers, give bulb life(how long 50% of tested bulbs lasted, about 2 years), and initial spectrum output and intensity, not efficacy over that period, not even the actual readings after "burn in" which is about 100hrs of use.

From what research I've done on NO, VHO, PC, T-5 HO, and MH, it seems to me that T-5 HO bulbs are the only bulbs that continue to give a high percentage of light at a full year. None of these bulbs can claim however that they will give the same, or similar output for the majority of the bulb life.

Anyways, you can't assume that bulbs will last any amount of time, and should just be something to consider, because after 6-8 months of use it's increasingly likely that your bulbs are going downhill. I'm not saying that if your plants are doing great to go out and buy a new bulb every six months, but just to give thought. I'll keep mine running as long as possible. I'm a poor college kid . This isn't the most important thing to think about, and definitely not as important in a plant tank as a reef tank which need, generally speaking, more light than we give them. It was just something that crossed my mind.

Oh and you are right, actinic bulbs don't last as long as others, but since they are more for veiwing pleasure than photosynthesis, they are much less important to replace. 6500K and say 10000K(which is what I use) last the same amount of time. I'm not sure about the 20000K, these are even harder than the more common bulbs to find info on.

The only reason to shorten the cycle would be if my algae profits from the time available when the plants are already tired of uptake.

There are other reasons, for me anyways. Light is more connected to all other nutrients than any other, making it by far the most important. Having a high light tank such as yourself, means everything else has to be just right, whereas having a little less light will slow things down a bit and give you more room for error. You might find that your plants will even be as healthy/colorful, and things will be easier on you. I remember Tom Barr saying it, and I totally agree. In his experiments he'd crank the light up to see algae faster, and more ounced.

Eh, just something to think about, I'd like to know why you are so stubborn with the light and ready to change everything else. I'm not sure what everyone else thinks about this though. I'd like to know. Don't just go on what I say. It might have been total luck in my case that everything I did helped out instead of causing a huge crash.

Anyway with good nutrients going in it should just be a waiting game - trim off the existing algae as new replacement growth comes in.

I agree with this too.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Wings - Thanks, this means that you owe me only $201 now, as the fee for the entertainment in my monster log is $250

LF,
I stayed up all night reading your log just looking for the way that to give you payment. I couldn't find one so I guess you are out of luck.

Isn't it true that your other tank has no algae. Why not break it down. I mean the differences between that tank and your 125 and see if you could hit on something.

125 = high tech
20 + 29 = low tech? But maybe that is something to look into.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Reason I brought up the two tanks, so you might go back to basics and break it down, variable by varible. Something is not in balance, thus the algae. Too much light, not enough mass (discussed too much already), too much waste in the water column, it's not the macro ferts. I'm dosing macros on my 12gallon just like my big tank and I see no algae even with 2.2wpg and no co2 (using excel daily - the only way to use it in my opinion)

Look at bensaf's tank, you would probably have to triple your current plant mass to equal his, every layer and level is full with plants.

Your algae issues are still in the light/waste/mass relationship in your tank. Your dosing EI, your plants are growing, yes some species are stunting, but I don't think these stunted plants are a big part of the mass in your tank.

I can't imagine your "old" lights are causing algae, I understand where Matty is going with the spectrum thing, but I agree that cf bulbs are much more stable.

My Scapes

I ve not been here a while, sort been popping in having a look and then running away in shame! - As ever Little_Fish great tank!

I found this and thought of the gentlemen that frequent this thread and their long suffering other halves!!

http://www.ilfordaquarists.co.uk/articles8.htm

GFG



_______________________________________
Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey S. Firestone

Your algae issues are still in the light/waste/mass relationship in your tank.

Tetra has been banging away at this for a while, and not really getting the attention it should.
I just read something by Tom Barr that addresses that very issue.
Basicially it's to to with the input of organics into a system. Apparently there needs to be a balance between the the organics going in (ie fish poo, mulm) and the bacterias ability to consume it.Loading is the key rather then the amount of organics itself. If the organics are loaded faster then the bacteria can consume it then you will have algae. It's not possible to have enough plant mass to make the difference. Example a 50 gal with say 8 discus getting fed properly is going to have algae, no matter how many plants or how sound the fert routine !!!! Same tank with 2 discus will have no problems.

So you can have a high level of orgnics with no problems if the bacteria can consume it quickly, if the bacteria can't - even a small amount of organics will cause problems. Loading.

Now Espei's aren't Discus by any means but then again are we still talking 100+ rather then 8 ?

I think tetra has been on to something here.

Certainly I used to be a devil for overstocking, got over that and prefer to be understocked now (looks better), and there do seem to be less issues with a lower fish stock.

goldfishgeek, I enjoyed that article

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Sorry Guys (and Gals) that I have not added an entry in a few days

I thought the best thing I can do right now is to let you add all your ideas of what may be causing my algae issues without interruption

While all your advice is noble and appreciated, combined it contradicts one rule that I believe I am beginning to understand (and follow): "Change one thing at a time, give it time to show its effect, if it doesn't help then move on to the next option".

I totally agree with the fact that light duration and fish load can have something to do with it, heck - they do have something to do with it. But right now I am increasing the plant mass and as painful as it is even for me, I am willing to give the plants time to grow and to monitor any changes, if they ever happen .

The "mental" issue I have with regards to light is that I somehow believe that reducing duration, or even cutting out the midday light, will conclude in a tank that I can have without CO2 and what not. So why would I want to go that route?

The "mental" issue I have with the fish load is - I like fish too . Although I can imagine reducing the Espei group (now maybe around 70) by another 20 to 30, you guys have no idea how hard it is to catch these buggers in that tank. While I had 100 it took me 1.5 hours to get 28, and an attempt to catch an almost adult one failed every single time - too fast and too smart. I have thoughts of somehow building a contraption with a real fishing net and what not.

In summary, I guess I have lots of "mental" issues

GFG - Good to see you back, you have to hang around some more. How is it going with you? I also loved the article, I am not sure though if I want to show it to my wife as it may frighten her of the things to come

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Bensaf,
Thanks for the acknowledgement. I had not seen the Tom Barr piece, but I knew I was on to something.

It's not possible to have enough plant mass to make the difference.

Do you mean, possibility depending on the organic input?

To me and let's be honest. "Planted tanks and fish lovers don't mix" What I mean is someone like LF (great guy by the way) is fairly new to the hobby and loves his fish, also loves his plants, but that's a big part of the issue. I would say if LF has 100 espei in the tank, plus rainbows, plus pearls. Each rainbow is probably like 10 espei same for the pearls, so we ar talking 150 fish or so. That's a lot of s***! Oh I forgot the otos they s*** too!
You got so much s*** floating around. Now, look up it's 386 watts, break out the SPF 80. See what I mean the two don't mix. I always go back to nature. Think of how vast the oceans and lakes are. Do you see 150 fish every 5 feet. It's an unbalanced closed system. Yes I know you do a 50% wc every week, but believe it or not, it's not enough based on your system. If you add another filter, wet/dry or increase water change to twice/weekly it would probably make a difference.

Look at saltwater tanks that require protein skimming, sumps in a desperate attempt to balance out the organic load, etc.

My Scapes

Look at saltwater tanks ...

Friends of the Planted Tanks - get your vaccinations, have your tubes tied, get a vasectomy - anything that can be done to stop this Dark Side stuff from invading the peaceful planted community

Well, it is only around 70 Espei, but I get the point tetratech

Are you basically implying that changing light duration, supercharging ferts, upping CO2, increasing plant mass, and what not will all not help as I simply have too many fish? What about Amano's 500 Cardinals in a 29G with minmal plant mass - all just show and for one day only?

It certainly would disillusion me that if after all this back and forth about what may not be right in my tank, and all these replants, the conclusion would be that I cannot have this fish load and a high tech planted tank

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Friends of the Planted Tanks - get your vaccinations, have your tubes tied, get a vasectomy - anything that can be done to stop this Dark Side stuff from invading the peaceful planted community

Look these are gut feelings I have. I haven't conducted scientific experiments but I do feel strongly about the relationship between waste/biofilter/light. Those other things (stablity, plant mass, not uprooting, EI) all have to be there).

I believe if you are going to continue to use high light then the water has to be cleaner. So less fish or more water changes / maintenance. Doesn't it seem kinda romote now that it's too much no3 or p04 that is causing problems.

I've said this before 3.1 wpg on your tank is like 6/7 watts on a 29g. Why don't you try semi-weekly water changes or 70% wc once a week, plus keep adding plant mass.

BTW: More fish the more you probably feed. You don't need to feed your fish everyday. I routinely don't feed once sometimes twice a week.


My Scapes

You don't need to feed your fish everyday

Almost by chance, I started this earlier this week. I don't think it will make a difference yet, but we will see. Also, based on an advice you gave me earlier, I decided to reduce the amount of food per feeding and I am doing so since 2 weeks .

Oh, BTW - tonight I will be part of that Planted Tank round table discussion at my LFS. It will be interesting to see what these folks have to say in general. I may encounter a big resistance when I mention things like EI, 30++ppm of CO2, 20ppm N, and what not

Thanks tetratech,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club